Dr Fallon (00:37)
Hi, and welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a particular focus on sleep and settling during those first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. How are you going, Laura?
Dr Laura (00:54)
Yeah I'm good, thanks Fallon, how are you?
Dr Fallon (00:56)
Yeah, really well. Another week.
Dr Laura (00:59)
Yes, another week and my goodness, we have been inundated with emails from members and people who aren't members yet, but they're thinking about joining Sombelle And the biggest issue and question that parents have had in these emails is they're really scared about getting started with cot settling because they think that their baby or toddler absolutely detests their bassinet or their cot or their bed.
Dr Fallon (01:20)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (01:27)
And we've just had, as is often the case, we get emails which seem to be theme based in any one particular week. And this week's theme has been these poor parents who are really convinced that their baby just hates their cot. And they really want to know how to make the leap into doing some cot settling when their little one seems to have a real aversion to their sleep space.
Dr Fallon (01:36)
Yeah.
Yes.
Hmm.
It's fair enough, isn't it? Because we often see this sort of picture of like a baby or a toddler just so happily going into their cot and snuggling in. Maybe they've got a comforter and they're just really happy to be there. And I think for a lot of parents, I just think, how, how do I get to that point? yeah. So I think it's a really good, point of discussion for this week's podcast is how do we get our children to be happy going into their cot? But this episode, I think could really apply to those who.
Dr Laura (02:08)
Yeah, yeah that's right.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (02:24)
have a child who co -sleeps and they're trying to get them into their own bed if they're old enough to be in a bed. How do we make them happy to do that? And I thought it's a great topic for a podcast because there's so many different things I think in the clinic that we would be thinking about to try and make that experience easier on parents and easier on babies as well. So I thought, let's talk about our own experiences. Quite a few years ago now, it's been a few years for me. My youngest is now seven, but...
Dr Laura (02:27)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Dr Fallon (02:53)
I think it's useful to talk about our own experiences because our experiences with cot settling were very different from each other's.
Dr Laura (02:55)
Mm.
were. Yeah. And I think that that perhaps can be comforting for parents to hear that even the people who are giving the evidence based advice about how to go about cot settling or bassinet settling can have different experiences. And it's just not one size fits all. And each child can be quite different and each parent can be quite different. So I get the sense, Fallon that you had a little bit more of a
Dr Fallon (03:07)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (03:27)
positive experience when it comes to goth settling than I had. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that?
Dr Fallon (03:29)
I'm sorry.
Yeah, so by the time I had my first born, I had been working on the baby business project for quite a few years, which was a project where we worked on giving families information during the first sort of four weeks after their baby was born to help them set up sort of the foundations for healthy sleep. So I kind of went into parenting with this bit of insider info on certain variables that could help sleep to go a little bit more easily during those first months and years. But I also was so aware.
Dr Laura (03:50)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (04:03)
that I'm terrible if I have broken sleep. I don't cope very well at all. And I just knew that it was going to be really important for me to get the best possible sleep I could get because I was really wondering how I was going to cope with all the uncertainty of parenting because I think like so many parents, I mean, I was used to having control of my own life and being able to plan things and have an order and some structure.
Dr Laura (04:09)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (04:28)
And I knew that that would go out the window. So for me to cope with that unpredictability, I knew that I'd need to be, yeah, pretty well rested. So for that reason, really early on, and I couldn't even tell you exact day or a week, but with all three of mine, probably within that first week or so, I was starting to put them down in their cot when I could recognize that they were showing some tired signs. And so they were quite happy with that. And not every baby is, some babies are just like, they're born hating.
Dr Laura (04:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (04:58)
being on their back anywhere. Mine weren't too bothered by it. I think there were probably a few times where they're a bit upset and you know they might get a little bit of padding or an extra cuddle or something like that. And I wasn't aiming to be militant either. It wasn't like every single settle for this tiny newborn is going to be in their cot or bassinet. I just had this idea that when it suited me and when it was you know when there was a cot there and it was available and they were showing tired signs I'd just put them down and let them drift off to sleep there.
Dr Laura (04:58)
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (05:27)
And that worked really well because it was just never a big deal for them that had some experience in the cot from very young. And then when they were a bit older and it was like, okay, I definitely want to be doing more and more cot settling now because I've got things to do and I want my hands free. That was a really, a pretty smooth transition for them. So that was, that was how it went for me. I went into it really with a bit of a prevention mindset, I think.
Dr Laura (05:42)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (05:54)
and I was also really wanting to avoid, I never ever co -sleep with my babies because I just knew that I would, I would always feel so touched out by the end of the day. Like I love my kids, love cuddling them, but by the end of the day, I'm just like, okay, don't touch me. I just, I need a minute over here. so I knew that like co -sleeping or bed sharing just was never going to work for me. There's no way I would have coped. I would have been in a c -
Dr Laura (06:07)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (06:24)
complete wreck if I'd gone down that path. So yeah, that's probably why I was a bit more focused on working on the cot settling. And I think also like with my third born, she was premature. She was five weeks early, which meant that very newborn phase with lots and lots of feeding and night waking went on a whole extra five weeks. And I had two older children running around who were challenging ages as well, about three and...
Dr Laura (06:26)
Yeah.
Mm... yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (06:53)
five or three and six, something like that. And so I just thought, yeah, I just have to optimize my sleep here to be able to manage this little circus that I've created all on my own. And yeah.
Dr Laura (06:55)
Mm -hmm.
Yes, yes, and to be the best parent you could during the waking hours. Because if you were just functioning on one or two hours sleep, because you had one, two, three children waking up in the night, then that would just make it very, very hard to be safe and functioning and focused during the day with those three kids.
Dr Fallon (07:09)
Yeah, exactly.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I would never have coped. And even now, if one of my kids needs me in the night, cause it's really normal during childhood, every now and then someone's like, mom, 3am. but I struggled to even cope with that. Like I'm a lightweight. I'm really not very strong when it comes to a lack of sleep. so yeah, like I just, it was something I really had to work hard to protect from the get go.
Dr Laura (07:36)
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (07:57)
And there were ups and downs, like even with babies who are really good at settling in their cot and, you know, and they're sleeping pretty well. They all had phases where for a couple of weeks it went out the window and it was an absolute nightmare before it started to resolve again. And that's really normal as well, which I think is important for parents to keep in mind that there's no, there'd be very, there'd be as rare as hens teeth babies who just sleep beautifully always. I've never heard of one yet. No.
Dr Laura (08:06)
Yes.
Mmm.
yeah. No, and we certainly don't see them in our clinics. They're not the ones. Yeah, they're not showing up. They don't need any support. Yes.
Dr Fallon (08:27)
No, they're not showing up. Yeah, that's it. But I think often it's the parents of the babies that do sleep really well, just naturally sleep really well, who are very vocal about what other parents should be doing because they want to help. They're thinking, well, well, I did this and my babies sleep beautifully. So I'll tell these other exhausted, you know, shells of a person that that's what they should be doing. And that can feel really irritating as well when you've got people kind of.
Dr Laura (08:42)
Yes.
Yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:57)
giving you that advice and you're looking at their baby thinking, no, they're a naturally good sleeper. And that's just not the card that you adult.
Dr Laura (09:04)
Yeah, and if, you know, your child's generally only waking, and I say only in inverted commas, but two or three times a night, thinking about small babies, and just having their feeds and a nappy change and then going back to sleep. That just does not compare to the families who have babies that are waking eight to 10 times a night and needing support. That poor family.
Dr Fallon (09:16)
Hmm.
Mmm.
I had one the other week that was waking 15 times, Laura. I just don't even, I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't know how they managed to even log into the appointment. I think I would be in hospital. I can't, I can't, I don't know where I would be. I just could not do it so hard.
Dr Laura (09:39)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and thank heavens for residential stays in those circumstances, where rightly so a family cannot expect a mother or a father to be able to be functioning well on months and months of such fragmented sleep. And to have the option of residential mother baby units that
Dr Fallon (09:46)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Laura (10:06)
those families can go to if they're just on their knees. I mean, thank heavens. I don't think that actually in the UK where I'm from, that is something that exists. So in Australia, we're really very lucky to have that as an option. Because that's just torture to be waking up so many times a night.
Dr Fallon (10:07)
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah, and it's interesting to say that Laura, because we're in Victoria, Australia, where we almost have an over, you know, a flood of early parenting centers that can help with these sorts of problems and mother baby units as well. Other states in Victoria, some don't have any service like that at all. And others just have one, you know, so and I think we've got, you know, certainly 10 or more in Victoria, which is a reasonably small state. So it is hard on families.
Dr Laura (10:36)
Mm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (10:55)
Why don't you tell us Laura about your experience with cot settling and how that was for you.
Dr Laura (11:00)
Yeah, well, Fallon, I would have just hated you when... If I had heard how well things were going for you when I was in the trenches with my two, I just would have walked the other way.
Dr Fallon (11:16)
I'm so glad I didn't know you back then.
Dr Laura (11:19)
Well, I wish I had known you actually because you would have given me some strategies to improve things No Yeah Yeah So like I said before in this podcast when my children were babies, I wasn't working in the sleep space So I was working in child development for different areas of child development. So, you know, I could help with their communication skill development, but not their sleep
Dr Fallon (11:23)
no, but I would never have gloated. That's the, that's the difference. I would have been sympathetic.
you
Yeah. So no insider sleep knowledge for you.
Dr Laura (11:48)
No, no, I didn't. And so both of mine were very tricky little sleepers, the second more so than the first, because my second child had medical issues that made had reflux and it made lying down for him really uncomfortable, which was an added complication to manage. And so I did for both of my children seek support.
because their sleep was so difficult and neither of them enjoyed either bassinet or cot. And once I did tap into getting some support for both of them and I had someone there alongside me showing me what to do and how to help my little ones enjoy their cot or bassinet, things improved. But...
yeah, it wasn't overnight and it was a long, for both of them, it was a long time of putting up with really disturbed night's sleep and for the poor little things, just not knowing. I kept changing everything that I was doing as I was settling them. So my poor little babies didn't know if they were coming or going, you know, they really didn't like being in their bassinet or carton. So then I'd be changing things without realizing that.
Dr Fallon (12:54)
Hmm.
Hmm...
Hmmmm
Dr Laura (13:14)
To be consistent really means to be consistent for forever, not just consistent for one or two settles and then say, they don't like it, I'll change it and do something else. Never quite giving them enough time to learn one way of settling. So the difficulties we had with settling my two little ones when they were babies, I think didn't need to go on for as long as it did.
Dr Fallon (13:22)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (13:43)
But getting support was really vital. And eventually my two did start to settle happily in their cots and then life turned around for us.
Dr Fallon (13:43)
Hmm.
Yeah, for some babies it just takes a little bit longer to get there. And I like what you're saying about consistency too, because I think it's, it's really hard as a parent to make that transition from when they're tiny little babies, they have a cry, it's usually because they need something, you give them that thing and that helps them to calm down again, to sometimes when they're older, it's a need to actually persist with something for the greater good. A baby doesn't know,
Dr Laura (14:03)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (14:27)
that, you know, I suppose if you're being quite inconsistent and then they're crying more and more, they don't understand. Yeah. I'm doing terrible job of explaining what I'm trying to say. God, it's Monday morning. But yeah, it's like a, it's a big shift in thinking, I think for parents, there comes a time where you might look at your baby and go, okay, I know that settling you in my arms is actually causing you to wake up a lot at night. and.
Dr Laura (14:54)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (14:55)
part of the process of reducing your night waking so you can be a better rested baby and we can all be happier is settling in your cot and they're not going to like it settling in their cot at first but it is something that you need to persist with so that everyone can have those health benefits and that's a hard shift to make from tiny babies where they have needs you have to meet them and it's sorted to having a baby who might have a preference for something different but you know that
Dr Laura (15:02)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (15:23)
to support their wellbeing, you have to make some changes that they might not agree with at first.
Dr Laura (15:27)
Mm -hmm. Yes, absolutely. And then we come back to the point you made earlier, Fallon, about for some families, they have great little sleepers and they will go to sleep in mum and dad's, mum or dad's arms or whilst feeding. And then they manage to do great big long stretches overnight and they might only wake once, twice, three times, depending on their age, you know, an age appropriate number of times have their feed again or a nappy change and they go back to sleep.
Dr Fallon (15:37)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (15:56)
And that's fine. And for those families, it's really hard to understand how when they hear other people say, if I feed my baby to sleep or hold my baby to sleep, they then wake up eight times, 15 times a night in the case of that family you were working with. Because for them, it's just not the experience that they are having. But that doesn't mean that experience doesn't exist for other families. And if you have a baby that is very, very sensitive to how they go to sleep,
Dr Fallon (15:58)
Mm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (16:24)
and you are feeding them to sleep or holding them to sleep, then they will wake up more overnight and that will eventually take a toll on the parents. And their experience is very different from the experience of the families that have those more settled babies. And it's...
Dr Fallon (16:28)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (16:45)
kind of never the twain shall meet, you know, ultimately we don't really want those families speaking to each other because the families who were saying just carry on doing it, you'll be fine. They're saying that from obviously a well -meaning place, but with no comprehension of what it's like to live with such terrible sleep deprivation. And they're not the right people to advise these ones over here who have these super sensitive babies.
Dr Fallon (16:51)
Yes!
Mmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Dr Laura (17:12)
who will wake over and over and over again for weeks and weeks and weeks, which turns into months and into years. You know, Fala and you and I work with families who we're working with a four year old, five year old, six year old, who have never been able to have long stretches of sleep. And yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:17)
Yes.
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah. I think you're tapping into that crux of why baby sleep has become so polarized because, you know, we often see it too with people who are out there giving families advice that really goes against the grain of what the science and research shows us. Often we're left wondering.
Dr Laura (17:38)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (17:51)
Are they basing what they're saying on their own experience with their babies who sleep and settle really well and could settle anywhere and thinking, well, if only everybody did that, would all be fine. So they go out there really gung -ho like you've all got to do this. And for some families, that advice is not going to fit them well. And it just makes things worse, which is such a shame. So I think, yeah, as more people develop that understanding that different babies, different parents, you know, it's not a one size fits all type scenario.
Dr Laura (18:00)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (18:21)
the better things we'll get for parents and babies too. So should we run through a few tips for anyone listening in who really wants to help their child become really happy and confident and comfortable in their cot? Or like we said earlier, it could be in their bed if they've been co -sleeping and you're just putting them in their own sleep space. We wanna give you a few take home pointers. When I was thinking about this episode, I thought number one thing and everyone will be like, God, she's a real broken record, isn't she?
Dr Laura (18:23)
Mm. Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (18:51)
But I always say to families, you've got to make sure when you make that change, you have to make sure that their sleep pressure is high enough. Because if you're putting them down without high enough sleep drive or sleep pressure, they're not going to be happy about it. And I actually think it's quite unfair because we're asking them to do a really new skill without kind of having what they need to be able to achieve it. So almost setting them up to fail, to not go so well with it. But by ensuring...
Dr Laura (18:59)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yes. Yes, it's a bit like introducing new foods and giving it to your child, not at their normal meal time when they're just not hungry and then getting cross or upset or exasperated when they don't eat everything that you want them to. I mean, of course, we, yeah, they don't have the appetite if you don't, if you're giving them the food when they're not hungry enough, they're not going to eat it. And yeah, so it's maybe that might help some parents understand that concept as well, just thinking about a different aspect of their
Dr Fallon (19:26)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah they don't have the appetite.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good one. And that is something that trips parents up. Sometimes they're giving big milk feeds and then offering solids straight away and going, why don't they want to start solid food? Yeah. So it does happen as well. I think it's a really, really good example. And then I would say my next advice to parents is go into it, making this big change for your child, knowing that they're probably.
Dr Laura (19:44)
development and thinking through.
Yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (20:08)
not going to like it at first. And that's really, really normal as well. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. It just means that they need help adjusting to it. I did the Raising Children's Network Baby Sleep webinar last week, as you know, Laura, and I use this example, a parent asked a question, I use this example of the nappy change and it resonated hard with these parents who had tuned in. And this analogy is, you know, all newborn babies,
Dr Laura (20:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (20:37)
almost all of them will cry when you change their nappy. It feels so unfamiliar. It's, you know, there's cold wet wipes, there's, you know, clothing being taken off. It just feels weird and uncomfortable for them. And most of them will cry. A lot of them quite loud and shrilly because they really don't like it. But we don't say, no, we won't do that again. We're not going to change their nappy ever again. They didn't like it. So we can't do that. Obviously. I mean, it's laughable to even say it.
Dr Laura (20:50)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Yeah. Yes.
Dr Fallon (21:07)
You have to keep going with nappy changes for their health, but you don't just keep going with it. You will often start and you don't even realize it. You might start to speak really softly. It's okay, darling. It's okay. You know, it's going to be all right. or one parent might stand beside you while you're changing the nappy and stroke their forehead or something to distract them. Or you might have the mobile going. You give them those supports so that they can get used to a nappy change. And before you know it, they're okay with it.
Dr Laura (21:18)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (21:34)
And I think that analogy is helpful. Sometimes we have to work on a child settling somewhere different because the old arrangements just not working out anymore. They might not like it and it might feel uncomfortable for you trying to persist with it. But just think about how can I support my child to make that transition? You know, you can offer supports to help them along the way. Would you add anything to that one, Laura?
Dr Laura (21:43)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, I think that applies to all age levels. So whether you're listening to this as a parent of a baby who's always contact napping and you want to change that so that you're starting to fall asleep whilst you're in the chair holding them and that's not safe anymore. So you need to start to put them down in their bassinet or cot all the way through to older toddlers who don't like to go to sleep in their own bed.
Dr Fallon (22:24)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (22:25)
And I will often say to families that it's okay for your baby or your toddler to have those big emotions. Our job as a parent isn't to stop big emotions. Our job is to support our babies or toddlers through those big emotions and to show them that you're there for them during those big emotions and after those big emotions. So if you have a toddler who is just really irate, doesn't want to go to sleep.
Dr Fallon (22:37)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (22:54)
in their own bed, wants to sleep in your bed and you're working on something like the co -sleeping fade out, then that's okay. They can have those big feelings. That's all right. Your job is to support them, cuddle them, tell them that you love them and do it in a really respectful way. But it's not to say, well, okay, they've had this big reaction and therefore I'm not going to go do this anymore. You've decided to make a change for your child and your family. And...
Dr Fallon (23:06)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (23:24)
once you've made that decision, ideally you commit to it and you don't get, try not to get upset when they get upset because they have every right to be upset and to be put out if you're changing how they go to sleep. Because you're changing something about how or when or where they go to sleep. It's their right to not be too happy about it. But it doesn't mean that you have to stop. So you can be kind and supportive and
Dr Fallon (23:36)
Hmmmm
Mmm, absolutely.
Dr Laura (23:53)
and persist and know that then they will eventually get used to it. And that's okay.
Dr Fallon (23:58)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it sort of taps into that old analogy I've used multiple times of, you know, as an adult going on a plane, you know, you don't sleep well and it's annoying, it's uncomfortable and you're grumpy and you're like, gosh, I really, I know I need to sleep or I'm going to be exhausted when I arrive. it doesn't mean that you're feeling terrified or worried about being in a different place. You're just grumpy because it's harder to fall asleep there.
Dr Laura (24:19)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (24:26)
So a lot of parents will say, I'm so worried, is it damaging their mental health if they're really upset to be in their cot and I'm trying to persist. And it's like, no, because a cot is a really safe place to be and you're right there with them, showing them they're okay and giving them a lot of support. So I hope, I think that that's helpful thinking for families going into this. And I know there's many families who have run the gauntlet and they've been through this where they have a few nights that are trickier because...
Dr Laura (24:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (24:54)
their child doesn't want to be in the cot and they're giving them that extra support. And a hundred percent of the time, once the parents are through those few tricky settles, they'll say, I'm so glad I did that because now they're happy with it. They're fine with it. They've realized they're safe there. I gave them a lot of support while they made that adjustment. yeah.
Dr Laura (25:04)
Yeah.
Yeah.
think the other point we have, Falon and I will chat before these, the podcasts before we start recording. And one of the things you had noted down is that, you know, in Sombelle we describe a number of different settling approaches that you can choose from that you feel is going to be the best for your child and your situation. So you may have a baby or a toddler that has
really strong preferences for how they like to go to sleep. And you can choose an approach that builds on that or incorporates that preference. So for example, if your baby loves to feel contained, for example, it's a small baby that's liked being swaddled and now we need to unswaddle them. Then one of the ways you could be supporting them in the bassinet is to have your hands on them. And even for the first couple of settles, hold their arms still.
Dr Fallon (26:00)
Mm.
Dr Laura (26:11)
as you put your hands on their bodies and just and jiggle them to sleep, you just help them just have that sense of containment. And then you could let go of one of their hands as they get used to it floating around. But you're building on what they like. And if they like that feeling of containment, you can give them that feeling with your hands on them. Yeah, anything else that you would add to that Fallon?
Dr Fallon (26:14)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, probably just that I think for some I'm thinking particularly of neurodivergent families with this one who often realize really early on that their babies or their toddlers have some sensory challenges. I think parents are usually somewhat aware that there's something going on. So be thinking about those sorts of things. If there's, you know, a family history of sensory difficulties, especially have a think about, you know, what's your baby or your toddler?
Dr Laura (26:49)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (27:02)
What are the things they don't like and how could that be impacting them settling? You know, it could be socks that are pulled on a little bit too tight and they're kind of, you know, pulling around the toes or, you know, it could be clothing tags or scratchy materials. I think especially when you're choosing sleeping bags and sheets, things like that could be loud noises really bother them. So thinking about how your child might behave and respond to different stimuli during the day.
Dr Laura (27:18)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (27:30)
And then thinking, how do I take account of those things at bedtime and in their sleep space can be really powerful. And that can be wildly different for different children. It's hard to say, you know, here's this one thing, you know, you've got to use this type of white noise or something like that. But just, you might try out some things and even make a note of how they responded to that particular thing. But I think the key one here is you can absolutely take into account your child's preferences and what makes them feel safe and secure.
Dr Laura (27:35)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (27:59)
and apply that when they're moving to that new sleep environment, be it a cot or a bed or a bassinet. And then usually those supports you're giving can be pretty easily phased out later on. If you're a Sombelle member, obviously there's a ton of approaches you can look into there. And if you're not, well, you can have a think about how would you, will you phase those things out? And I think, you know, a bubble out, and you've already touched on this too, Laura, it's the consistency that is just so key.
Dr Laura (28:02)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (28:28)
you know, if you are managing to just apply a really consistent approach, you're not chopping and changing how you're pat or what you're humming or whether you're shushing or, you know, if you're not changing those things, you just pick one thing you're going to steadily do. And if sleep pressure is nice and high, then you're really setting them up to be happy going into their cot. They're more likely to settle down quicker there as well.
Dr Laura (28:34)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:53)
There's always just going to be that caveat though. Laura, do you want to talk us through the little caveat that's there?
Dr Laura (28:59)
Yes, some babies and toddlers may always have a brief grizzle or cry at bedtime. And it doesn't matter what we do. You can be right there alongside them and giving them all the support that you reasonably can give them. And they may have a brief grizzle or cry before they go off to sleep. And
Dr Fallon (29:08)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (29:25)
sometimes it can be really hard as parents to listen to that grizzle or cry and think that it means anything other than they're upset and don't want to be in that cot or in their bed. But we know that for some kids, that's just what they do as one of the final behaviors just before they go off to sleep is that they have a bit of a cry. There's one school of thought that suggests that kind of that feeling of rhythmic crying.
Dr Fallon (29:32)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (29:55)
is actually just self soothing. Children actually cry and children that do that, which is actually what one of my children did. And it doesn't mean they're unhappy or complaining. It's a bit of a, they're getting some feedback from their vocal cords that feels nice to them. And for other children, it's not necessarily that it feels nice. It may be that it's just a habit.
Dr Fallon (29:57)
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:24)
that they are a real FOMO baby, a FOMO toddler. They just do not want to stop engaging with the family. And they're just going to have a bit of a cry for a minute or two because they are upset at just having to pause for a moment. And then they go off to sleep and then they wake up and they're full of beans again and ready for the next interaction and engagement and activity. What we find is that...
Dr Fallon (30:24)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (30:51)
you know, for a small minority, that is something that always exists. And for others, it does eventually fade over time. And we can't predict which child is going to always do it and which is going to grow out. Well, everyone will eventually grows out of it once your child is in primary school, they're unlikely to be crying as they go off to sleep. But try not to be thinking that means that you have done something wrong as a parent.
Dr Fallon (30:59)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. Because there are babies who have only ever settled in their cot and they've been doing it from day dot, but they'll always have a little grizzle to get off to sleep. And it's just their habit. They're like, I just make this little noise and then I'm gone and I'm out. And that's just how they like to do it. And some of them will eventually become the rockers where they like to rock on their hands and knees until they fall asleep because they like the rhythm or the headbangers who just like to bump their head into the cot. Often that freaks out parents, but
Dr Laura (31:31)
Yeah.
Yes. Yep.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (31:45)
usually completely normal. And they just like that rhythmicity. Yeah. So look, I hope that gives parents some ideas about, you know, factors to consider if you are, you know, really wanting your child to be a bit happier in their cot. You've totally got this. I think don't forget, it sounds so naff, my kids would probably laugh at me. But I often say it's like you need to step into your power as a parent. Sometimes we feel almost like we're pushed around by our own children and we're just
Dr Laura (31:49)
Mm -hmm.
you
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (32:14)
at their whim. But you as the parent, you are literally the parent here, you're the adult. So if there's a change that needs to be made, it's okay to make some decisions and go, okay, this is how we're going to do it now. And then stick with it and go for it. You can absolutely do this. I believe in all of you. So you know, come up with a clear plan and go for it and it will be okay. You'll get through it. And so will your child.
Dr Laura (32:28)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah. All right, shall we move on to the questions that have come in, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (32:41)
Hmm.
Yeah, good idea. Do you want me to read out our first one? All right, so Aziza wrote in to say her daughter is four months old and having some trouble with her sleep. Her bedtime is 8 .30 in the evening and for about two hours, so until around about 10 .30 p she appears to be quite unsettled. She'll often wake up unhappy and cry and require some padding to soothe her back to sleep.
Dr Laura (32:48)
Mmm, yeah.
Dr Fallon (33:12)
And Aziza is wondering why this is happening and what she could do about it.
Dr Laura (33:16)
So Aziza, thank you for emailing in. This is the time people often will talk about this changes coming about once their baby is around that four month of age mark. I would be looking to see how close that last nap your baby is having is to bedtime. Being unsettled for about two hours at the first, in the first stages of sleep.
Dr Fallon (33:30)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (33:45)
that sleep period, might suggest that the sleep pressure is just not quite high enough when you're popping your baby down. And if she's not going off to sleep until about 1030, that's getting quite late as your baby is getting a little bit older. For little babies, it's quite usual for newborns to have a late bedtime because they're feeding so frequently. But at four months of age, 1030, going off to sleep is getting pretty up there in a late bedtime.
So I'd be thinking about how many naps is she having during the day? Perhaps if she's on four or five naps, you can look down to dropping down to about three and having a nice stretch of awake time before bedtime so that she is really experiencing a strong drive to sleep at the start of the night. And I'd also be looking at how she is going off to sleep. So if she's going to sleep with you patting,
Dr Fallon (34:26)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (34:42)
patting her in the cot and then when she wakes up you're writing that she requires patting to go back to sleep. I'll just be looking at starting to wean off that patting at the start of the night so that you're giving her, you know, maybe patting her for one minute and taking your hand off for a few seconds and patting again for another minute and just over time increasing the length of time that your hands are off her and decreasing the amount of patting so that she's going to sleep independently at the start of the night because that can then help her.
Dr Fallon (35:11)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (35:11)
Come up into light sleep a bit later, see nothing has changed since she went into her cot and she may then be more likely to link her sleep cycle. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (35:20)
Yeah. And I know that in Aziz's email, she provided a little bit more detail than what I read out because I'm always trying to just shorten the questions down a little bit. I know she's tinkered a little bit with nap time. And that would make me think Aziza to definitely go back to calculating your baby's unique sleep needs because often at this age, they drop all of a sudden and that can leave parents kind of going what on earth's going on now they're having this period of time where they're harder to settle. So yeah, calculate the sleep needs and then look at the daily rhythm charts that
recent addition we've made to the Sombelle program, pull up the relevant chart and try out one of the daily rhythms on there. Or, you know, create your own that's based around their sleep need. Just because one of the hallmarks of low sleep pressure is starting the night not being able to get into the deepest stages of sleep. So usually it's what we see is the fragmented beginnings of the night just means that sleep pressure isn't where it needs to be. So definitely look at that side of things very, very closely because something's a little bit off.
Dr Laura (35:51)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:18)
And like you've said, Laura, at this age, if they sometimes fall asleep a different way, or with more support, often they just cranky every time you got to settle them. They might refuse to fall asleep. Like if they're being held to sleep or padded to sleep, sometimes they try and avoid falling asleep because they don't like that feeling of waking up and finding that you're no longer there. so that's definitely something to think about, as well. But look, it's probably going to be short lived. So yeah, just revisit the unique sleep needs chapter on that one. and let us know how you go Aziza.
Dr Laura (36:36)
Mm.
Hmm.
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (36:48)
It's a good question. I'm glad you've brought it up because I think a lot of parents hit a phase like this during the first year. It's very common to have a phase like that. And once you adjust the sleep, the daily rhythm rather, things should really start to come together there.
Dr Laura (36:48)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
All right, we've had an email from Helen. Helen has a five month old and says sleep is mostly going well. She's been following a daily schedule since before joining Sombelle but would now like to work out her baby's unique sleep needs so she can feel confident that she's catering for those needs appropriately. Helen, yeah, great, great thinking Helen. So.
Dr Fallon (37:07)
Ahem.
Excellent thinking, Helen. Yeah.
Dr Laura (37:29)
Helen wonders if she should keep her sleep diary whilst maintaining the same daily schedule. So she's often waking her baby from sleep. And I guess she means from naps, and he's sometimes cranky. She also wonders if she should take into account the night wakes that her baby has for feeds, or the night wakes when she has to resettle him, because she's very tired overnight. And so are you poor thing Helen, I
Dr Fallon (37:43)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:57)
I remember that well when you're so tired you really don't want to be noting down when they're waking overnight. So I can see Helen that you do want to check if that is necessary and I'm afraid my answer is yes it is necessary. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (38:02)
Mmm.
Hmm. Yes, but you can make it easier. I so often say to parents, and this is a parent who told me this and I was like, that is genius. That idea. just take a screenshot that shows the time on your phone. So you're not fiddling with an app. You're not trying to get your pen out, just screenshot the time and the next day backfill your diary. You probably have a bit of a sense of how long the wake was for. and that's.
Dr Laura (38:17)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (38:32)
That's perfect. So that might give you, yeah, make that a little bit easier on your Helen. And as for sticking to the old daily schedule, I would say yes. Generally with sleep diaries, I say just keep doing exactly what you have been doing because your baby will, their drive to achieve their sleep need is really strong. So even if you're using a particular schedule, odds are they're managing to get enough sleep per 24 hours.
Dr Laura (38:37)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (38:58)
and even if they weren't, I would say just start with whatever that average is, from having used that schedule. because, you know, as you keep, we always sort of say to parents, you're going, even if you come up with a daily rhythm, if everything's going beautifully with their sleep every few weeks, try adding in a little bit more sleep and see if they can manage it. So you can feel really confident that they're getting as much sleep as they need.
Dr Laura (39:04)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (39:21)
So you can always tinker with that amount of sleep you're offering later on, but I would generally do that once nights are going really well, or if you've been wanting to work on cot settling, once that's done and they're adjusted, only then would you start to tinker with that amount of sleep that you're offering. But I love that Helen is being like so proactive in really wanting to understand her baby's sleep needs, because I actually think that's like, it's the secret sauce, you know, as a parent.
Dr Laura (39:31)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (39:48)
If you understand how to work out your baby's unique sleep need and you've got the skills and the tools to be able to cater to that sleep need, then you can apply those every time your baby's sleep needs start to change a little bit, you know what to do. And I think that's gold. It's going to keep you out of trouble. Usually it will sometimes when they're toddlers, they throw all sorts of spanners in the works. But if you're able to make sure they've always got high sleep pressure when it's time to sleep, I think it's even more than half of the battle really.
Dr Laura (39:57)
Mm hmm.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah. And knowing that it's a really good idea to every night, if you whenever the sleep starts to fall over, log their sleep again for a week. So it's not that you work out your baby's sleep needs when you join Sombelle and that is something static that you can then use from then on. It changes all of the time and sleep needs often decrease over the first three years of life.
Dr Fallon (40:26)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (40:46)
how much they decrease varies from child to child. And at what point they, at the speed of the decrease and at what age they decrease varies wildly. We do see some patterns like we were just describing for Aziza's question around her full month old baby. Yep. As the circadian rhythm system matures, we do start to see a change in sleep needs as a baby moves from needing lots of daytime sleep to now needing lots of.
Dr Fallon (40:54)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (41:13)
more time awake during the day. So we see some changes in where the sleep needs to be across the day and the night. But we also see just as children particularly go through that first year, really quite rapid changes in sleep needs. And you can feel like you've logged your baby's sleep, things have been going great for about a month, and then things start to fall over again. If you were to log the sleep again, you might find the sleep needs to drop by half an hour for 24 hours or an hour, you know, it can vary.
Dr Fallon (41:27)
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (41:42)
And then you go, all right, we'll make some tweaks again. And the tweaks might be just adjusting bedtime and wake up or the duration of the naps, or it might be that you change the number of naps in the day. It's time to drop a nap. So you can always come back to this. So it's a secret sauce, but it's a sauce that you just have to keep refining. You have to keep adding seasoning. You can't just assess it once and say, that's it.
Dr Fallon (41:46)
Yes.
Hmmmm
Yeah. Yep.
Absolutely. And so often parents will come to us and say, everything was going really well. And now they seem like they're not sleeping as well. They're not getting as much sleep. So how do I get them back up to how much sleep they were having? Because they were happier then now they're getting really cranky. And it's like, no, it doesn't work like that. I'm sorry. But when you start catering to their new sleep need that lower sleep need, they're not going to be as cranky because they know they're not going to be put down when they're not quite tired enough.
Dr Laura (42:29)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (42:33)
they're going to go back to having consolidated sleep. So they wake up more refreshed and then they're happier again. And I think that is really key to keep in mind that the goal is not to get them back up to a sleep need they used to have because they're growing children and for almost all of them, their sleep needs gradually decline. So yeah, keep that in mind as well. And that can be really hard as a parent. You just think I want it to go back to how it was. But that's part of parenting. You've got to pivot, you've got to adapt. It's a constant.
Dr Laura (42:45)
Mm -hmm.
Yes!
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (43:02)
It doesn't get easier though, doesn't it? Like it's up and down in the first couple of years and then they're a little bit less frequent with the throwing the spanner in the works. And Laura, we've had some really, really lovely feedback. So nice that I thought let's actually read it out on the podcast. Celia isn't a Sombelle member, but she wanted to send us in a testimonial, which is just so lovely. So thank you Celia. It really made us stay our day getting this one.
Dr Laura (43:04)
Yeah, it does get easier. Yeah.
Yeah.
Aww.
Dr Fallon (43:31)
She says, my 10 month old baby was waking up to eight times per night simply to be resettled. And after listening to your podcast, understanding more about sleep pressure and changing settling from in arms to cot settling, my baby has slept through the night for the last two nights. Celia says, I know it's only early days, but I feel hopeful and rested. Thank you so much for the podcast. The format is really helpful. Isn't that awesome?
Dr Laura (43:57)
it's awesome. And it's an absolute pleasure, Celia. We are just, our aim is to be some sensible evidence based advice, a bit of a light in the darkness and the quagmire of misinformation out there. So the fact that we're reaching families that Celia's described, she hasn't joined Sombelle, but we are still reaching families.
Dr Fallon (44:02)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (44:24)
and they can start to make changes and see if there are improvements in baby's sleep. It's just wonderful. So it really makes our day to hear that.
Dr Fallon (44:25)
Yes.
Hmm. It is. Cause we know that not every family needs something as intensive as Sombelle. You know, not every family is going to need it. And that's perfectly fine. I love that we're giving out information that's evidence -based that gives most parents just listening to the podcast, they're going to get enough information to make some progress. And that's perfect. The ones where they need that extra helping hand or I've got Sombelle and we've got the clinic for that. So yeah, it's absolutely wonderful.
Dr Laura (44:52)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (45:00)
and Bonnie also had some really lovely feedback that I wanted to share and it relates to cot settling. So I thought it was quite relevant. Bonnie says we recently implemented the Sombelle program and are totally delighted with the results in our 18 month old daughter. She said we had never implemented any sleep training with our daughter. And it was really important to us that the approaches taken were gentle and supportive.
Dr Laura (45:08)
Mmm.
Aww.
Dr Fallon (45:24)
She said, we are so impressed with the detailed and tailored content. It took us through how to understand her unique sleep needs and implement an approach that was the right fit for her and us. She said, we honestly cannot believe how well and how quickly she responded. From day one, we saw a significant improvement in our daughter's ability to fall asleep by herself in her cot and to stay asleep in her cot overnight. We've gone from difficult and prolonged bedtimes and reverting to disrupted co -sleeping all night.
to a little girl who's comfortable falling asleep in her own sleep space and who can settle herself back to sleep if she wakes. She said, my husband and I are getting much more sleep and are so much more rested and calm as a result. It's been an amazing investment for our family and has taken away the dread of bedtime and nighttime. it's horrible when you're dreading the evenings. Yeah, and she says, if you're thinking that you've created bad habits or that your toddler is too old to improve their sleep,
Dr Laura (46:15)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (46:22)
Please don't, we saw marked improvement in literally only days. And if she'd known it was going to be this easy, she says we would have done it much sooner. Isn't that lovely?
Dr Laura (46:31)
yes, lovely. Well done, Bonnie. I'm delighted for you. I can just hear in your words how transformative it has been to help your toddler to sleep better. So really, really well done. And I thank heavens you found it and you could make those changes now because there are plenty of families who
Dr Fallon (46:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (46:57)
go through all the baby months and then the toddler years and then the preschool years. And never, never ever receiving information and advice is actually helpful. So well done. I know you're saying that you would have done it sooner, but you've done it now. You found us still during those early years. So brilliant. Really great. Thank you so much for that feedback, Bonnie.
Dr Fallon (46:59)
Hmmmm
Yeah, in primary school. Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's lovely. Yeah. I wanted to share that because I think it's so important to celebrate the wins. If you've had a big win that you'd like to share, let us know because we're all about celebrating on this podcast. I love all this hard work that families are doing because it's, it's really paying off. So before we go, just a little reminder that if you're having trouble with sleep and settling,
Obviously, Sombelle is one of your options. So go and check it out. there's coaching calls as well. So if you start it and then want to chat with either Laura or myself, we're absolutely here for that. Gosh, I'm loving the coaching calls, Laura. They are so lovely and, yeah, I'm loving meeting so many beautiful families. if you've got a really tricky case or maybe you just think I don't have the head space to be reading or watching anything. I just want to work one -on -one with someone.
Dr Laura (47:58)
Yeah, they're wonderful.
Dr Fallon (48:12)
you can see us in the clinic. So I do a lot of telehealth appointments with families right across Australia. Laura, you run a Melbourne based clinic for families local to Melbourne who want to see you there. You also do a lot of telehealth calls as well. So if you're needing some support, we're absolutely here for that. And one last little request, hit that subscribe button if you can and pop us, give us a little five -star review.
Dr Laura (48:25)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (48:38)
if you've got a moment because it really, really helps us get this information out to more and more families. And it just makes us really happy. All right, take really good care everybody. And we'll be back again next week. If you're a Sombelle member, shoot through your questions to [email protected] and we'll see you all next week.
Dr Laura (48:45)
See ya, wish you all good.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
