Dr Fallon (00:38)
Hi and welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a particular focus on sleep and settling across the first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with my colleague, Dr. Laura Conway. How are you going, Laura?
Dr Laura (00:55)
I'm good thanks Fallon, just about staying warm in this cold weather is like being back in England. How are you coping in regional Australia?
Dr Fallon (01:01)
Yeah, it's been really, really chilly, but like weirdly chilly, but also sunny lately, which is kind of, it's sort of almost feels a bit like spring, but yeah, definitely it has gotten colder for sure. We've had a two week break because last weekend was the King's birthday long weekend in Victoria.
so it feels very like very nice to just be sitting down to do this again, all refreshed. And I think we probably both needed the break. Did you have a nice long weekend?
Dr Laura (01:28)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, I did. I went way down to the beach and it was lovely. So I'm bracing walks on the sand and yeah, really needed it. I think that, you know, we spend so many hours every week supporting clients and their families that I think all people who work in this field really have to take the time out to care for themselves as well.
Dr Fallon (01:42)
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Laura (02:00)
sometimes. So I really feel refreshed and ready to jump back into things this week.
Dr Fallon (02:06)
that's awesome. Yeah. A hundred percent. There's something about, I actually love going to the beach in winter when it's freezing cold and there's wind and the waves are crashing. It's like, I find it very therapeutic. It's really like, I don't know, it's just a great place to just let go of whatever. Yeah. You've been carrying heavily from work. Yeah, it's awesome. I mostly was just renovating like I always am.
Dr Laura (02:19)
Yeah, yeah.
Mmm.
Yes!
Dr Fallon (02:33)
painting and getting things set up, but I'm actually in my new office now, which is our new virtual sleep clinic. So for the handful of people who actually watch this on YouTube, there aren't many of you, but you'll be able to see behind me, my new office. And I think if I adjust my screen, yep, there's even a sleeping dog on the couch. There usually is around here.
Dr Laura (02:39)
Amazing.
Yes, yeah, amazing. You put so much hard work into that renovation, Fallon. It's so nice to finally see you in the virtual clinic and to see the artwork on the wall and the little bassinet in the background. Yeah, it's beautiful. Well done.
Dr Fallon (02:59)
Yeah.
Yeah. It feels amazing to have a dedicated space. That's for sure. Yeah. Totally loving it. So it'll just mean we've got a great space to for filming lessons for Sombelle members or just content on our social media channels. We do a lot of sort of snippets with tips and things like that. So yeah, it's going to be great to have a space for it. Yeah. So look, we were just trawling through all these questions, weren't we? There's been so many questions come through because we have had that bit of a break.
Dr Laura (03:19)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (03:37)
and one of the recurrent themes is around naps. I think it's so often the case with parents that you're like, yes, I've got the naps working beautifully. And then all of a sudden it's just, they're not working so well anymore. so I thought, Laura, why don't we talk about the signs that it's time to drop a nap? Cause I think this can be really confusing for parents, you know, sometimes, some days you think, okay, they're ready. And then the next day you're like, no, they're not.
Dr Laura (03:41)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Yes, yeah.
Dr Fallon (04:06)
Talk us through what are some of the signs you're telling parents to look out for.
Dr Laura (04:10)
So I tend to describe four signs to drop a nap. And your baby or toddler may show one of them, two of them, three or all four. And we really want to think about those signs being present for at least a week to make sure that there isn't anything else affecting sleep. Because as we've spoken about often on this podcast, sleep is impacted by so many different variables. So.
And it is a really good idea to make sure that these signs that we're going to talk through have been present for at least a week so that you can rule out sickness, developmental spurts, teething, any other factors that might actually just be causing a bit of a blip that will pass in sleep. So the first thing, first sign I normally describe is how you may be
Dr Fallon (04:42)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (05:03)
going to pop your baby or toddler down for a nap that they previously went to sleep for quite quickly. And then it starts to take them a little bit longer to go to sleep for that nap. And, you know, maybe it was 10 minutes, 15 minutes at most that they were taking to go to sleep. And now it's pushing out to 20 or 30 minutes, sometimes more. They really seem to be fighting one or all of their naps. And that's a real...
red flag that maybe something is up, they might be needing a little bit longer awake during the day and don't need to have quite so many naps.
Dr Fallon (05:39)
Mmm.
Or they might sort of have that trouble settling at bedtime too, can't they? I see that sometimes they nap okay and then bedtime is starting to get really difficult.
Dr Laura (05:45)
Yes.
Yes, that's right. So the sleep onset bedtime really pushes out and parents can describe that their naps that seem to be fine, but for some reason, it's taking them ages to go to sleep at the start of the night. Other times, the start of the night is fine because your baby or toddler is consistently skipping that last nap of the day. And then parents are saying, my goodness, they're awake for so long in that lead up to bedtime that it's really hard to keep them awake.
Dr Fallon (05:59)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (06:19)
but they've refused their last nap of the day. And then they finally lurch towards bedtime and they're absolutely exhausted. And then the sleep onset is quite quick. So those are two signs, because we just mentioned that taking a long time to fall asleep at the beginning of the night or starting to struggle to go to sleep for the naps and sometimes skipping one of the naps. What other signs are there, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (06:22)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Look, definitely we see them start to, you know, they might have their naps are fine, bedtime is fine, but they're waking more often overnight. And that can mean that, you know, their nights are just really fragmented. They fall asleep at bedtime, 45 minutes later, they're awake and you're constantly trying to resettle them. So yeah, if the nights are fragmented with lots of brief wakes, that can be a sign, or it could just be that they're having a few hours of good sleep and then they're wide awake for
Dr Laura (06:56)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (07:15)
you know, one or even up to three hours if they're having split nights or biphasic nights. Definitely if they're having the really long wake ups, that is such a clear sign that they're overdoing the day sleep. So that would be the third one to look out for. And early waking for the day as well, you know, if they're up super, super early and previously they were able to sleep in.
Dr Laura (07:18)
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:38)
to a sort of reasonable time, but now they're, you know, constantly waking up really early. That is such a common one. I just was looking at a Facebook post the other day, actually, where someone was, talking about this saying, what do I do? You know, they're, they're up so, so early and look, there are definitely babies and toddlers that are just early risers, but if it's kind of come out of nowhere, it could be that yeah, the day's sleep is a little bit too much. And sometimes it's not that you need to drop a nap. You might just need to trim down the length of each nap.
Dr Laura (07:53)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (08:08)
but yeah, they're sort of the four things to look out for. So taking longer to fall asleep, refusing the final nap or just being hard to get down for the final nap, waking more often overnight and waking really early for the day. and like you said, Laura, it's really if, if it's a collection of those signs for a week or more. but of course we also want to be thinking about, you know, how old is the baby or toddler? And sometimes that influences,
Dr Laura (08:21)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:38)
whether or not you drop a nap or you trim the naps. I think there was a case, was it last, the last episode or maybe the one before, where the baby was maybe nine or 10 months and seemed to really want to just have one massive nap in the middle of the day, but wasn't quite handling it. Maybe, I don't know if it was the podcast or just something I, in a client I saw, but in that case, it's just a little too young to move to just one nap. Typically it would say, try and do two shorter naps first.
Dr Laura (08:41)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:07)
for a week or two, see how that goes. So yeah, be thinking about age. What we typically find is that they're, you know, they really should be dropping from three to two naps somewhere between six to eight months. You know, there's always that window of variability, but if they're getting quite a bit past six months and they're still on three day naps and nights are really tricky or settling's really hard, that's the point at which I would be thinking.
Dr Laura (09:22)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (09:35)
about dropping to two naps and that drop from two to one nap again has a really wide wide window. Could be as early as, look there it's occasionally a 10 or 11 month old who just seems super ready for it but mostly it's from about 12 months to maybe 15 months or so when they make that switch.
Dr Laura (09:41)
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes we have families who report their baby or toddler just absolutely loves their daytime sleep and really doesn't want to give it up. But the night times are just hellish. And, you know, then we hear they're having two naps a day and they're both two hours each and they're 15 months old. And it's well, we probably need to.
Dr Fallon (10:09)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (10:24)
address that balance of day sleep to night time sleep.
Dr Fallon (10:25)
Yeah.
And it's so hard for families, isn't it? Because if your child is waking up a lot at night, they're starting the day on the back foot, they're going to be more tired. So of course they want more naps. And of course they do show all the tired signs and they are genuinely needing that sleep, but it's because the nights were so bad. And I think a lot of parents are really frightened to deliberately try to reduce day sleep in order to push a bit more sleep into the nights because...
Dr Laura (10:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (10:52)
They're terrified of overtiredness, the worst, I mean, overtiredness, it got so overhyped, didn't it? And it's done so much damage. you really don't need to be so worried about it. and we were talking earlier to Laura about, and I think we mentioned this in another podcast too, if your child is over the age of three and they're still having a day nap and there is anything at all wrong with their nights, whether it's hard to settle them.
Dr Laura (10:55)
Yeah.
Yeah, it did.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (11:20)
They're waking up a lot or early rising, the nap has got to go. There are very few children who can hold on to a day nap after the age of three and still have good nights. So do keep that in mind as well if you've got a three year old.
Dr Laura (11:24)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yeah. And know that when you do make a change to the number of naps that your baby or toddler is having during the day, that it will take them around about a week to get used to a new daily rhythm. So sometimes what we hear from parents is that they have made the change, drop from four naps down to three or two to one, whatever it is that the change that they're making.
because they've seen a combination of those signs we've described and the nighttime sleep doesn't improve straight away. And then, well, it hasn't worked. And now my baby or toddler is just really, really tired and grumpy during the day and the nights haven't improved. So it's a really important thing to persist and give it about a week. Give your baby chance to adapt to the new daily rhythm.
Dr Fallon (12:25)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (12:30)
and you will find that as the week goes on, they will start to function much better. They will then start to have longer sleeps overnight or start to take less time to go to sleep at the start of the night, whatever the issue was that you had seen that led you to the conclusion that they were ready to reduce their day sleep. and then that will mean that they will get a run of better night sleeps under their belt, which means that they're going to be able to tolerate fewer naps during the day, much better.
and you will then find after a week or so that things will really start to improve. The nights will be better, the days will be better, and you'll be back on track until they're ready to drop the next net.
Dr Fallon (13:00)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I often say to families in the clinic, just expect that when you change that daily rhythm, the first few days are going to be horrible and night's sleep might even be worse than it normally is. and I say to parents, that's normal. Don't panic. Just go, yep, this is what Fallon said was going to happen. That
Dr Laura (13:21)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (13:33)
them cope with that change enough. And then they sort of four days in and they go, okay, yeah, I get it now.
starting to kind of click. So yeah, it does take a bit of bravery from parents, definitely. But it's well worth it because once they make that switch, you've then got hopefully a few months ahead of you that are settled until it's time to make that switch again. And I think that, you know, that advice applies to quite a few of the families who have emailed in this week, Laura. Should we start going through those? Yeah.
Dr Laura (13:38)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, so we have Cassie who's emailed in an update on her baby who's now six and a half months old. And she has in the last week dropped down to two naps a day. And Cassie has found that her night sleep seems to be getting back on track. She had written that she was waking quite a number of times overnight when she'd previously had had fewer wakes and was only waking up for feeds then they'd
wakes had ramped back up again, which is one of those signs we talked through. Cassie went back in and had a look at the unique sleep knees chapter and has moved to a two nap schedule and things are improving, which is great. So Cassie asks, when transitioning to a new nap schedule, is it okay to have an earlier bedtime, for example, 6 .30 rather than her usual 7pm?
especially if she can still sleep through to her usual wake -up time. What do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (15:04)
Hmm. Yeah, I'd say in those first few days on the new schedule, it's really common that you try and get them through to bedtime and they just can't quite make it. Just do your best. Get as close to it as you can. Then the next day, try again. It's not that you're going to give up and say, okay, well, 6 .30 is always the bedtime now. Cause sometimes they can do that for a little bit. And then you notice, hang on, they're waking up more at night again. We're offering a little bit too much opportunity to just sleep overnight. So.
Dr Laura (15:14)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (15:33)
Yeah, temporarily. Yes, that's okay. But always be aiming to push it closer to that bedtime of 7pm that you're aiming for.
Dr Laura (15:38)
Mm hmm. Yeah. And Cassie also asks on days when naps don't go to plan, for example, if her baby only has a short nap, she asks, are you better to follow your baby's usual awake time or to push for their usual bedtime? For example, Cassie says the sweet spot for her baby seems to be four hours awake before bed, which sounds about right, Fallon, for a baby who's six and a half months old.
Dr Fallon (16:07)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (16:08)
particularly knowing what we know about Cassie's baby, would I follow this or would I push to 6 .30 or 7 regardless of the wake up time? And really it's the same advice as what you've just answered Fallon, isn't it? That in that first few days of switching to a new schedule, just do your best. We know that sleep isn't linear, even when
Dr Fallon (16:11)
Thank you.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (16:33)
your baby has adapted to a new schedule, sleep is never going to be identical from one day to the next, because that's just not the way sleep is. So there will be days where one nap might be shorter than usual. And on those days, it may be that you do bring bedtime earlier that night, for example. But just keep an eye on it, I would be suggesting, because if you find that your baby is
Dr Fallon (16:39)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (17:03)
actually coping quite well with slightly less daytime sleep. So always having maybe one longer nap and one short nap and you had been aiming for that short nap to be a longer one. If your baby is demonstrating that that's all they want and they're waking up happy, then stop fighting it. And then maybe you do change bedtime. But if you find that more often than not, they're having two longer naps, then I'd be aiming for that later bedtime.
Dr Fallon (17:18)
Yeah.
Yeah
Yeah, yeah. And I always say to families bedtime and wake up time are the kind of signposts for the circadian rhythm. So aim to keep them pretty consistent. There might be, you know, 30 minutes variability on the days when you need it. but in particular, I would keep that wake up time. I think that's where things often go awry is when parents say, they had this awful night and we just thought, we'll just sleep in an extra hour today.
Dr Laura (17:44)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (17:56)
And then it just keeps snowballing from there. You know, the next night's also tricky and they sleep in again. Yeah. But it sounds like you're doing a really wonderful job, Cassie, and hope that advice helps. Laura Mikaela has emailed in about increasing her toddler's nighttime sleep duration. She says at 16 months old, her daughter has around about an 11 hour sleep need per day. She naps twice a day for about two hours total sleep.
Dr Laura (17:58)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (18:25)
and she's having about nine hours of sleep overnight. Michaela says they would like to increase her night sleep duration, but in the past, when they've tried to bring bedtime earlier, she'll just wake up very early or for really long periods of time overnight or just lots and lots of overnight. I know that pain is not very fun. She says the nine hour overnight sleep has resulted in uninterrupted night sleep, which has been really needed and we're afraid to mess with it.
Dr Laura (18:42)
gosh, yeah.
Dr Fallon (18:54)
So what Michaela is describing is that they've got a really good balance of day and night sleep there. When she's offered nine hours overnight, she sleeps really well. But Michaela says, we're wondering if it's possible to increase her night sleep by one hour or so if we cut this from the day naps, or can some babies with low sleep needs simply not sleep for longer stretches at night? Hmm.
Dr Laura (18:58)
Mmm.
Yeah, interesting question, Michaela. Look, there are some babies who for one reason or another seem to have a cap, a maximum amount that they will sleep in one stretch. And sometimes we do see that, particularly in lower sleep in these babies, that they will only do nine or 10 hours overnight, no matter what we do. However, having said that, given
Dr Fallon (19:24)
Ahem.
Dr Laura (19:43)
that your baby is now 16 months old. So she's actually a toddler now rather than a baby. I would be thinking that it's probably time to move her to just one nap a day. Because she's right down the, you know, if we think about that timeframe that we spoke about earlier, somewhere between 12 months and 15, 16 months that babies tend or toddlers tend to drop down to the one nap. Michaela, your baby's right at the
upper end of that and I would be thinking about moving her to just the one nap and then you might find that with higher sleep pressure although she's previously been unable to sleep for longer than nine hours overnight she might actually now do longer stretches overnight and won't start to have the wakes overnight and the more early starts for the day particularly if you look at
perhaps when you move her to that one nap, giving her maybe just an hour and a half for that sleep in the middle of the day. And then you've got maybe nine and a half, even possibly you could see if she will do 10 overnight. Possibly not, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. What do you think, Valen?
Dr Fallon (21:00)
Hmm. Yeah, I think that's, that's really good advice. You definitely want to, as you push the two naps together, going from two hours total day sleep to an hour and a half total day sleep is not a massive change. So it's a pretty gentle change. We're only reducing the total day sleep very slightly. yeah, I think that's really good advice. Just, yeah, like we said earlier, stick to it for a week. Know that the first few days will probably be horrible because she'll be really cranky and her circadian rhythm is trying to figure out what's going on.
Dr Laura (21:13)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (21:29)
but yes, to answer the question, definitely if we reduce the day sleep by around about, you know, an hour or this instance, maybe starting with 30 minutes, it's really likely that she will add it to the nights, but it could take a few days to a week for her to do that. good luck, Michaela.
Dr Laura (21:44)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. And we have a email from Fiona. So Fiona wrote a lovely email. And she starts by saying, I'd like to hug you both and thank you for creating Sommebell. It's a fabulous resource for very tired and overwhelmed parents. That's so lovely. Thank you, Fiona. She says,
Dr Fallon (22:04)
Thank you.
Dr Laura (22:08)
I did a generic wake windows approach with my eldest and drove myself mad with tracking, trying to figure out how to fix her sleep like it was a maths equation. I'd tell myself, if I just keep her awake another eight minutes, then she'll sleep perfectly through the night. yeah, she says, gosh, I never really solved the equation until I relaxed a bit and actually looked at my baby, looking for signs of tiredness.
Dr Fallon (22:24)
you poor thing, Fiona.
Dr Laura (22:36)
created a bedtime routine and trusted my instincts. Well done. So Fiona goes on to describe how with her second born, she went with the flow, which worked well at first. But then around four months, she found herself co -sleeping with her baby and they both had very interrupted sleep. She used some bell to help him adjust to settling in his cot, which he now does very well, preferring to settle alone without Fiona in the room.
Dr Fallon (22:41)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (23:05)
So Fiona's first question is around how he falls asleep. If she tries to pat him, he'll get very upset. But if she leaves his room, he has a little grizzle and then falls asleep. She wonders if this is cry out and could it damage their bond? Do you want to jump in and answer that Fallon before we go on to the second question?
Dr Fallon (23:23)
Mmm.
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked this question Fiona, because I think for a lot of families, they're really, really worried about damaging the bond that they have with their baby. And there's so much confusion about what cry it out actually is. cry it out means to, you know, say good night to your baby at bedtime and just not go back in until the morning. That's the actual definition of what cry it out is. It's just leaving them completely alone all night. That's not what you're doing.
Dr Laura (23:39)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (23:54)
It's definitely not what you're doing. What you're doing for you, Anna, is you've looked at what your baby's preferences are. You've looked to them for cues on what's going to help them settle down for sleep. And for some babies, if they've got a parent in their room when they're trying to fall asleep, they're hideous. They get really cranky. You know, it's a lot of parents wouldn't believe this, but there really are babies who are just furiously mad if they can see you and you're not kind of doing what they would like you to do.
Dr Laura (24:11)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (24:23)
And the minute that parent steps out the door, the baby's calmed down and go to sleep. So like I said, this is not every baby, but Fiona has recognized in her baby that actually he needs some space. And when I get out of his way, he can put himself off to sleep pretty quickly. He might be having a bit of a grizzle, but grizzling is actually a strategy that a lot of babies and toddlers use to self -settle, to have a bit of a grizzle and a grumble.
Dr Laura (24:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (24:47)
It's a bit like adults at the end of the day when you're like, I'm so tired. I just need to go to bed. It's the same kind of noises. so you've done nothing to damage your bond with him. In fact, you've been wonderful because you have identified what he needs to fall asleep quickly and easily. And you've respected that. So I think that's absolutely perfectly fine. yeah, well done, Fiona. I think that's, that's brilliant.
Dr Laura (24:51)
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, me too. Well done. It's absolutely not cry out. Yeah, and some babies will do that sound as well. They'll grizzle initially, and then they just make that sound like rhythmic kind of vocal stimming, almost as they're going off to sleep. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (25:28)
Yeah.
Yeah, it is. They like the sound, the rhythmicity of their own sounds. And while we've touched on this topic, I think it's worth jumping in to say that one of the questions we get a lot from people who haven't joined Sunbell, they email us and say, is it any cry it out? Is there cry it out in your programs? No, there's absolutely not. It's so, I mean, it's weird to even say that it's rare that you'd need to do cry it out. Cause I don't think I've really come across a circumstance where that was necessary to leave a baby.
Dr Laura (25:51)
No.
Dr Fallon (26:01)
completely alone all night and not respond. In some bowel, we expect parents to be there and to provide frequent reassurance to their little ones when in the cot. That might mean that you do something very gradual where you're gradually reducing how much hands -on support you're giving. But typically we say stay in the room and be really predictable and reassuring with your responses.
Dr Laura (26:03)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (26:22)
But in our modification section, it does just for situations like for your owners, if you notice your baby settles much more easily when you leave the room, that's totally fine to do because you're responding to what they actually need. So I hope that clears things up for anyone who might be listening in and thinking, what's this program about? Yeah, I hope that helps.
Dr Laura (26:35)
Yeah.
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think and also just knowing that if your baby is crying, it's your baby crying at bedtime is not cry out. So if you are settling your baby in their cot or bassinet, and they are crying, and you are responding to them, be it patting them all the way off to sleep, giving them short bursts of beats.
Dr Fallon (26:53)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (27:06)
being in their cot without your hands on them or whatever approach it is that you're trying. And there are many, many, many in the Sunbell program. If you're responding to them and they are crying, then that's okay. Some babies will just cry because that's their main way of communicating. And it's not the same as an adult crying. It's different. It's their main communication means. And it's not cry it out.
Dr Fallon (27:22)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (27:36)
you when you're responding to them nice and calmly and predictably and shushing and humming or rock rocking them with your hands or patting them in the cot. And I think that that somewhere in the ether, the idea of any kind of crying in a baby being wrong has taken root. And then it just worries parents because of
Dr Fallon (28:00)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (28:03)
Of course, course, of the parents who are listening to this podcast, whether they're Sombel Sombelle or not, are truly committed to having a lovely, rich, secure attachment with their babies. And they want to do the best for their babies. And when then they're hearing from outside sources that if your baby cries at all, that suggests that there is damage happening to the attachment, it's very hard and discombobulating for parents.
Dr Fallon (28:31)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (28:32)
And then when that all gets labelled up into this cry it out, anything that involves a baby crying is cry it out and therefore wrong. It can be very hard to keep making changes when that's happening.
Dr Fallon (28:44)
Yes.
Yeah. What's happened with that whole movement is that it's pathologized really normal baby behavior. Babies are supposed to cry out for their parents when they're unsure about a situation because then we step in as parents and say, this is okay. Yeah. They're like, I love that you've spoken about this before, Laura. You often say when they're crying, it's like they're asking a question. Like, is this okay? I'm not used to being in my cot. You know, if that's what you're working on.
Dr Laura (28:57)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:15)
and they're looking to you for a response. And if you're there, calm, relaxed, and you're patting and shushing, and you're telling them you love them, and you're giving them lots of support, then you're answering that question with, yes, this is a safe place, and you're okay here. And that actually builds strong, secure attachment, because your child is learning that I can depend on my parent. If I'm feeling unsure, I can depend on them to respond to me. We've really gone down a rabbit hole.
Dr Laura (29:40)
Yeah.
Yeah, we have. Whoops, sorry. We haven't even got to the second part of Fiona's question. Sorry, Fiona! Who knew? Anyway, but...
Dr Fallon (29:45)
Anyway, that's okay. It's our podcast. We can do what we want.
Dr Laura (29:53)
So let's have a look at Fiona's second question. So she says she wonders if her baby needs a little more day sleep. She describes a daily rhythm that fits his unique sleep needs really well. And she mentions if she gives him more day sleep, he's wakeful overnight. Yet when she caps his day sleep to improve his nights, he can be cranky during the day. She wonders if it's just taking time for him to adjust or should she add in more day sleep?
Dr Fallon (30:20)
Yeah, it's a good question. And it's always a bit of a wobbly line. And as a parent, it might take you a while to figure out, you know, exactly what the perfect amount of day sleep is. I always say to parents, stick to the schedule so that the nights are really, really good and have really good nights for one or two weeks. Then think, okay, I'm going to add in 15 minutes more. Maybe it's you're going to give a little bit more day sleep or maybe you're going to let them sleep in a little bit longer in the morning.
but you're just adding 15 minutes extra opportunity to sleep. So they might not take it, but you're giving them the opportunity at one particular time each day, not varying every day, just one particular time. And if after a week they're taking that 15 minutes, they're happier, their mood has improved and their nights are still wonderful, great, you're on the right track. But if you really got to do that for a week though, to find out if it works for them.
But there can often be that blurry line where parents say, look, they are a bit ratty during the daytime, but then their nights are so wonderful and we can cope with it, it's fine. You might make a decision like that too. You can have a bit of an experiment, but I would say keep the nights going really well and then add something in rather than doing something a little bit different every day.
Dr Laura (31:22)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yep, good advice. All right, shall we move on to Lucinda's question now, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (31:39)
Yeah, yep. I'm going to read that one out. All right. So Lucinda describes how her 14 month old is waking at night, sometimes for hours at a time. ouch. She says they recently reintroduced night feeds during a particularly rough patch. And now he's very insistent that he still needs to keep those night feeds. She says they aren't sure if he is ready for just one day nap because they tried a few weeks ago and it went terribly.
Dr Laura (31:40)
Yeah.
gosh! Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (32:08)
He has a 12 hour sleep need and he settles for both naps fairly easily. She says he can settle independently but has been needing more cuddles and rocking recently. Lucinda wonders what to tackle first. Lucinda wonders what to tackle first. Chewing up my words. Is it the number of naps, the night feeds, the settling or the bed sharing? What do you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (32:24)
You
Okay. Right. 14 months old, we know that he can self settle. And he's up for hours and you've had to reintroduce a night feed. I would be moving to one nap.
Dr Fallon (32:48)
Mm, a hundred percent. He's really ready. And it can change so quickly, can't it? Like it might've been a few weeks ago that you tried and he wasn't ready, but it's been a few weeks and it can change really fast. Yeah.
Dr Laura (32:49)
100%. Yeah, he's really ready. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So I would move him to one nap, which means that then the those long overnight night wakes are likely to reduce in duration, which then is going to make it easier for you to stick to not offering a feed overnight. Depending on how many feeds you're offering him Lucinda, whether it's bottle or breast, I would probably spend a few days just reducing the volume.
If it's a bottle and reducing the number of feeds and if it's breastfeeding, unlatching him a few minutes before the end of a feed or just feeding him on one side. And then make the leap to dropping the feeds altogether, settle him to sleep however you can. And if that means continuing to co -sleep whilst you're doing that, do so. And then move on to the settling and the...
and stopping the bed sharing. That would be the order that I would suggest. What do you think, Palin?
Dr Fallon (34:00)
Yeah.
Yeah, I 100 % agree with that. And I think just for listeners, keep in mind that if Lucinda had a very little baby, would be saying, stop the co -sleeping first. So make the situation safe and then work on the other things. but because she's got a toddler, it's a little bit different and there's not so much of a safety concern, which means that you can do things like, sometimes it is easier to drop the feed, but still have the option of cuddling them off to sleep. and then tackle the bed sharing as the final step. yeah.
Dr Laura (34:30)
Yeah, if Lucinda, if your toddler just goes nuts, when you're trying to just cuddle them to sleep and keep them in the bed and they're trying to get a fit, particularly if your child's breastfed, then you would want to, it might just be easier for you to stop the bed sharing at the same time that you drop the night feeds, but it really depends on whether it's bottles or breast. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (34:36)
You
And for so many breastfeeding parents it works so well for the non -breastfeeding parent to go and do the settling with the toddler in another room, so getting them set up in their own sleep space and just having the breastfeeding parent out of sight and out of mind could make a very big difference too. Yeah, all right well we also had Susanna who says we have a four month old boy,
Dr Laura (34:59)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (35:16)
who happily self settles during the day for four or five 30 minute cat naps in his cot, but he still wakes anywhere from every 20 minutes to two hours at night. He has a sleep need of 12 hours per day. Susanna says, we started with the supported accelerated approach and have had some improvement. They've had a four hour stretch.
but then he got sick within the first week and required a lot of cuddles to sleep and he slept with Susanna in her bed. This was followed by vaccinations and severe eczema triggered from a food allergy. So I've really been through the wringer. Susanna says now three weeks later, we are experiencing seven to eight wakes over a nine to 10 hour night. She says the length of the overnight period depends on if he needed the fifth cat nap or not.
Dr Laura (35:53)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (36:07)
She says, we've tried to reduce to four cat naps, but he literally cannot keep his eyes open without it some days. She also describes that he screams so intensely when he stirs at night. And she's not even sure if he's awake because his eyes are never open. But it is so intense that he'll lose his voice and she feels she can't settle him in the cot anymore. That's really hard when they're in that kind of light sleep and screaming and poor Susanna.
Dr Laura (36:31)
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (36:36)
So Susanna describes that the screaming is so intense that after trying to settle him in the cot for a few minutes, she picks him up to settle him. She describes how he never screams with the same intensity during the day for naps. He tends to settle within about two minutes for his naps. And she also says that they've been to the GP many, many times and he is medically healthy, healthy. I'm really stumbling over my words today.
Dr Laura (36:55)
Mm -hmm.
You
Dr Fallon (37:05)
So Susanna is confused. Why is he settling so well for day naps, but having so much distress overnight? So even with the hands on support at night, he's screaming and really, really upset. That sounds so tough, Susanna. Laura, what are your thoughts on this case?
Dr Laura (37:14)
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah. As you were reading it, I was thinking, well, first of all, we need to make sure that he's medically okay, that he's healthy. So, and of course, Susanna, you've, you've followed up with the GP many times and, and he's healthy. So look, my heart goes out to you. It sounds like you have had such a rough run and he's only four months old. So you're still...
Dr Fallon (37:28)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (37:49)
know, you're still in the trenches, you're out of that very little baby phase. But it sounds like you kind of came out of that and, and then fell into this severe eczema, vaccinations, the sickness. So you haven't yet had a stretch of being able to see your baby outside of that very little baby phase without the sickness and so forth confounding things.
So I'm not surprised also given how frequently your poor little baby is awake in the night, but he is so exhausted during the day. And you're finding that trying to drop down from five naps to four is really hard because he is struggling to keep his eyes open when you do drop that fifth cat nap. But I think that's really going to be the key here, Susanna, to like we were speaking about earlier.
Dr Fallon (38:29)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (38:48)
You know, once he's better and the eczema is under control, he will, has got over the vaccinations and he's no longer sick. Then just saying, all right, we are now going to move him to a four nap schedule and try and space those four naps across the day. Think about in the evening, how to put some supports around yourself. Cause he will be a bit cranky initially because his
previous nights will have been rough. So think about often we say put, you know, think about putting a baby into water, like a bath or a shower, but given that he's got eczema, you probably are following advice about minimizing how many baths he has just whilst his skin heals. So think about if there's company that you can invite around, or whether you depending where you live, Susanna, if it's not freezing cold in Victoria.
Dr Fallon (39:21)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (39:46)
think about going out for walks in the garden or down the street to look at cars going past or to pick a leaf from a tree or maybe don't pick off a tree, but pick a leaf up from the ground so that he can feel it and just do everything you can to help distract him so that he starts to have a bit of a longer stretch of wake before bedtime at the start of the night. And then you might find that those...
Dr Fallon (39:46)
Hehehehe
Hehehehe
Mmm.
Dr Laura (40:15)
wakes every 20 minutes, stop happening quite so much and he'll start to have those longer stretches again. I think it's ace that you have, you have had an experience of one four hour stretch of sleep. And of course he's very little, so he will need to feed overnight. Many babies at this age do need to have feeds overnight. So we wouldn't be expecting him to be sleeping the whole night through.
Dr Fallon (40:27)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (40:41)
But yeah, waking up every 20 minutes is really excessive and would be really, really challenging, Susanna. What do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (40:46)
Yeah. Yeah. I think this is a really good example of where nights can be so challenging and so fragmented that yeah, they settle quickly and easily for the day naps and parents think, well, they obviously need the naps. They settle easily for them. They're tired enough for them. but it's one of those cases where we just have to reduce the day sleep and push a bit more sleep, into the nighttime. So I would say,
really stick to that 12 hours, look at the daily rhythm charts and see if there's one in there that works for you. Like Laura said, lots of distractions to help keep him awake. You might even plan to make the switch over a weekend where you've got a partner around if you have a partner or if you can invite some friends around to help, you know, all hands on deck while you make that change. And for what it's worth, I think, you know, it can really shock parents how noisy their babies can be in light sleep.
If his eyes are closed and he's making a whole lot of noise and yet might even be crying, there's still a really good chance that he's in the lightest stages of sleep. And parents think, well, it's obviously terrible quality sleep because they seem really upset when they're in those lighter stages. But that's not the case. That light sleep is actually really important. We do it for a reason. And all babies need to still get the lightest stages of sleep. So try not to worry. I know it's a...
Dr Laura (42:04)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (42:12)
hard thing to hear, try not to worry when you're having to put up with such challenging nights. It will resolve, it won't last forever. He should start to get a bit quieter at night time and be a little bit more settled, especially once the sleep pressure is a little bit higher at night time. So hang in there, Susanna. It is a tricky age. Chances are in another month, it'll be entirely different. And hopefully with that advice to reduce the day's sleep, you really start to see things come together.
Dr Laura (42:15)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm hmm. Yeah. All right. And we have our final email that we're going to cover today, which is from Marge. Marge describes how her four and a half month old son has a 13 hour sleep need. He wakes every two and a half hours overnight insistent that he needs to feed. Marge follows the feed, play, sleep, repeat pattern, but fears it's causing him to want to feed overnight.
She describes his daily rhythm, which has some variability depending on whether he has one or two sleep cycles in a row. She says, he's happy to be awake as long as he's being carried. She's been using the quick fade approach. She's heard conflicting advice, but feels he should be able to do four or more hours of sleep at night in a stretch.
And she wonders, is that realistic for a four and a half month old to sleep for four hours in a stretch at night? Should she take him off the current daily rhythm to redo his sleep diary and could feeding too often in the day cause a belly ache overnight that causes him to then want to comfort feed during the night? quite a few questions there. Balan, which one did you want to take first? Yeah.
Dr Fallon (43:57)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, there's a bit, bit to unpack. Yeah. Well, let's start with, is it realistic for a four and a half month old to sleep for four hours in a stretch at night? Yeah, definitely. If they've got high enough sleep pressure, I'd expect them to probably start their night with, you know, a three to four hours stretch. Not unreasonable at all.
Dr Laura (44:19)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (44:21)
And in fact, if they weren't starting their night with a few hours in a row of good deep sleep, I'd be thinking there's a bit too much day sleep happening. So yes, you can expect a four and a half month old to be able to get some four hour stretches. What's that statistic? It's that by 12 weeks of age, 80 % of babies are having one five hour stretch of sleep at nighttime. So just to give you a bit of a comparison there. So definitely possible by four and a half months.
Dr Laura (44:41)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (44:49)
So then to the next question, should she take him off the current daily rhythm to redo his sleep diary? I would say no. I would stick to the daily rhythm and I'd actually be looking at, yeah, I would stick to the daily rhythm that you've got, check that it is suitable for 13 hours sleep need. it sounds like there's a little bit of variability in the nap, so it might be worth looking at making sure those naps stay a bit more consistent. if you can.
And if you're thinking that his sleep needs have dropped, then track the sleep, but still stick to that 13 hour schedule while you're tracking the sleep. And if he's waking up a lot and not meeting 13 hours, well, that's fine. You're just going to see what the actual total sleep duration has dropped to. so yeah, I wouldn't be taking him off the daily rhythm to redo the sleep diary. Just stick with what you're doing. and then that last question is a really interesting one.
Dr Laura (45:34)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (45:46)
Could feeding too often in the day cause a bellyache overnight that causes him to then want comfort feeds during the night? Look, I would say No, my thinking is no. I mean it'd be interesting to ask maybe a lactation consultant But milk is like it's digested pretty quickly So it's not like you know You have your Christmas dinner and you go to bed and you absolutely stuff to the top and you wake up because you're thinking gosh I've got a bellyache
Dr Laura (46:01)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (46:14)
Milk is pretty easily digestible whether it's breast milk or formula. They're both pretty easily digestible And Marge also mentioned in that email didn't she that she's following a feed play sleep repeat pattern and she's worried that it's causing him to want to feed more overnight and That's interesting too when you do feed play sleep repeat across the day Sometimes in little babies they just need an extra feed every now and then and we do want to offer them that if they're showing hunger signs
Dr Laura (46:19)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (46:42)
That's why I always say apply that rhythm very flexibly. You know, it's just a rough pattern to follow. Try not to be too rigid. If he's showing some hunger signs, then I would offer him the extra feed during the daytime. So we've kind of followed a few different trains of thought there. But what would you add to that, Laura?
Dr Laura (46:53)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, I would just be checking the contents of his nappy as well. So just if you're feeling that maybe he has a bellyache, just double check that there aren't any strange poos happening. There's no mucus, blood or frothiness in the poos that might suggest an irritated gut. And following up with your GP or your health nurse if you do notice any of those things.
Dr Fallon (47:18)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (47:31)
And yeah, if you need to add in an extra feed, so if it's a feed, play, feed a book and then sleep during the day for one of those wake windows, then that's okay. And, you know, for often around six months is when you can start to introduce solids, but your nurse might suggest introducing solids earlier. They sometimes do for some babies depending on what's happening.
Dr Fallon (47:44)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (48:01)
with their behavior and their hunger signs, et cetera, during the day. So I'd follow up with your health nurse to just double check if there's anything that you need to do differently in relation to your unique baby. And yeah, just keep on going, Marge. I think it sounds like you've got a really good grasp of what is happening with his sleep. Log his sleep again if you think it might have changed like Fallon has suggested.
Dr Fallon (48:15)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (48:31)
and, yeah, then make sure that you then look at the most relevant daily rhythm, chart in Sombelle and, yeah, you'll get back on track.
Dr Fallon (48:36)
Mmm.
Yeah, and with those night, yeah, with the night wakes, I'd be inclined to think it's probably more to do with low sleep pressure than tummy aches. So yeah, I think I'd definitely be thinking about that daily rhythm as a first step. Thank you so much to all the wonderful parents who have sent in these great questions. So interesting that with so many of the answers, it really comes down to something to do with naps and maybe dropping a nap or shortening a nap.
Dr Laura (48:51)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (49:09)
Yeah. So hopefully if you're having, if you're listening in, you're having some trouble with that. This episode has given you a few things to think about. just some, some news. So on the day we record this, it's what is it? Monday, the 17th of June, tomorrow night, Tuesday, the 18th. I'm doing the toddler sleep and settling webinar for the raising children's network. It's completely free to register. So if you've got a toddler or a baby who will one day turn into a toddler.
It's a great one to listen into because we go through things surrounding personality and temperament and how that would play into how you might tackle sleep or settling difficulties in a toddler. It's my favorite webinar to do. I really do look forward to it. So go along and register for that. I'll try to remember to put a link in the show notes. We also did the baby sleep webinar only a month or so ago. And that's recently become available to watch again at no charge.
Dr Laura (49:49)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (50:07)
on the Raising Children's Network website. So we'll pop the link in the show notes. There's a couple of freebies there. You're very welcome to join in on. If you're having more intense struggles and you really want some support with sleep and settling, please go and check out Sombelle. Have a look, see if it's for you, especially since I recently did a massive website upgrade. It took me a lot of time and it looks so pretty now that I want you to all go and have a look at it and.
Dr Laura (50:30)
Hehehehe
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (50:35)
Marvel at how beautiful our website is now. And if you notice anything not working, let me know. But yeah, we're here to support you if you need some help. There's coaching calls for Sombelle members available later this week, even. So if you're a Sombelle member and you want to have a chat through a particular problem, just reach out and yeah, you can book a coaching call through the link on the dashboard. Amazing.
Dr Laura (50:38)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (51:01)
What a great start to the week Laura and yeah we'll be back again next week for another episode.
Dr Laura (51:08)
Yeah, thanks everyone. Bye bye.
