Dr Fallon (00:37)
One of life's great pleasures is holding a beautiful sleeping baby in your arms, seeing them so content, so happy to be snuggled into your arms is such a lovely thing. Contact naps are really common during the first few months after your baby arrives. It helps them feel nice and secure. But at some point contact naps do become problematic for some families. Today we're going to dive into why that is, what factors you need to know about contact naps.
So you can make a good decision that is a good fit for you and your baby. Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a particular focus on sleep and settling in those first few years. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with my friend, Dr. Laura Conway. How are you, Laura?
Dr Laura (01:28)
good, thanks, Fallon I'm feeling a little bit discombobulated because we're recording this podcast a day late, aren't we?
Dr Fallon (01:32)
Yes. Yeah. We're normally doing this early on a Monday morning, but, it's Tuesday. We spent half the day talking about the podcast and we're only now starting to record it.
Dr Laura (01:45)
I've also really liked hearing about your little getaway that you had this weekend, which is why we are recording a day late. You had a really lovely time visiting an area much warmer than Melbourne and Victoria.
Dr Fallon (01:54)
Yes
Yes. Yeah. I got one of those emails where it's like cheap flights. And I was like, okay, me and the kids, we're going somewhere warm. so we went to visit my dad. he's sort of up in the Northern rivers region in New South Wales. it was heaven. That area is heavenly. I, I'm so envious of anyone who actually gets to live up there. I need to go and buy lottery tickets so that I might one day afford a house up there, Laura.
go up there and that could be our new podcast recording location perhaps. but it was beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. It was just sun shining and beautiful little quiet beaches. it was just bliss. I so needed that nice little getaway. The kids had a ball. but yeah, it means that we've, we've had to make all of our listeners be very patient and wait an extra day for this episode. So we, better make it a good one, Laura.
Dr Laura (02:33)
Yeah, new clinic.
Yes. Yeah, we better. And we've had so many questions, haven't we? So we've got a lot to get through today.
Dr Fallon (03:01)
Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I thought, you know, what we could really focus on today are contact naps because we get a lot of questions about contact naps. And Fiona actually wrote in to ask about these. And it just made me think, yeah, this is one for the podcast. So a contact nap, most parents would be well aware that it's when a parent is holding the baby during their sleep, either in their arms or in a carrier.
But it's important to know that when we're talking about contact naps, we are not referring to co -sleeping or bed sharing. So contact naps are when the parent is awake and holding their baby during their baby's sleep. And I think that's a really important distinction to make that, you know, contact naps, we want to keep them safe. If you feel like you're going to fall asleep, if you lay down on the couch and have your baby on you, then make sure you're sitting up or you're moving around. We really do want to keep
That's safe.
Dr Laura (04:01)
Yeah, definitely. If you think you're going to fall asleep whilst you're holding your baby for one of their daytime naps, then the better decision is to put your baby down somewhere safe and you have a nap yourself because we don't want any sleep accidents.
Dr Fallon (04:14)
Yeah, absolutely. So Fiona mentions that, you know, in previous episodes of the podcast, we've talked about how if contact naps are working really well for your family, then, you know, go right ahead. You don't need to change anything. And Fiona says she loves doing contact naps with her little girl, but would like to know what to expect in the future. Will she stop wanting contact naps all of her own accord? Is this usually initiated by the babies?
Or will a concerted effort be needed to kind of move away from contact maps at some point? So Fiona really wants to know what sort of factors she should be aware of so that she can do the very best by her little girl.
Dr Laura (04:57)
Okay, so I think we can probably break this down into each of those individual points that Fiona is asking about, couldn't we Fallon? So thinking about when contact naps are okay, we often find that babies who are under three months of age, like you were just saying Fallon, you know, very little, just new to the world and many parents are
in the midst of adjusting to parenthood. And the baby is napping so frequently during the day that often some of those naps or all of those naps are on mom or dad. And that's very common and a lovely way for you to be bonding with your brand new little baby. When your baby gets a little bit older, you might also be doing contact naps, particularly if they're teething or they're unwell.
and you just want them to be closer to you during the day so that you can offer them the support that they need if they are feeling a little bit poorly. Other times parents can really enjoy doing contact naps and continue to do it beyond those first few months would be if there's no urgent need to work on helping the baby go to sleep in the cot or bassinet. For example, if you're on maternity leave, you don't have any urgent return.
Dr Fallon (06:02)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (06:22)
to work deadline where you're thinking about your baby's going to be looked after by other people or in daycare, for example. And so it's okay to continue doing contact naps whilst it suits you. And also if having contact naps is working well for you, it's not impacting your baby's nighttime sleep. Or even if the nighttime sleeps are a little bit tricky, but it's not a problem for you, then it's okay to continue offering contact naps.
Dr Fallon (06:27)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (06:51)
And for as long as you want to as a parent, that's a choice for you to make. But there are reasons why we avoid contact naps. Aren't there, Fallon? Do you want to talk through
Dr Fallon (06:57)
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely. think it, yeah, like you were saying, it's so important to think about the individual family, isn't it? Because for some families, they can do contact naps. The nights are perfectly fine. Everyone's happy. There's no need to change anything. but there are definitely times when I would say avoid contact naps. The most logical one is that if you're simply not enjoying them and you don't want to do them, like some parents are doing contact naps, but they hate
you know, especially if you have your own sensory difficulties, having somebody pressed against you, that feeling of closeness, sometimes it can feel overwhelming for some parents, that's perfectly fine if that's the case for you, or you know, you might have a physical injury, maybe you've got a sore back or a birth injury, your body's going through a lot after you've just had a baby. you know, doing a contact nap might just feel too much and you might just think, no, right from day one, I'm going to put them down when it's time for sleep.
And that's a perfectly legitimate choice as well. I would say, you know, if you've got multiples, I think that's the really big one. If you've got twins or triplets or more, it's just going to be really hard to do contact maps. And I would say we really don't want, you know, any factor that could cause sleep to go backwards, to be present in families or parents who have multiples.
because it can really quickly become overwhelming if you've got more than one baby who wants to be rocked or fed to sleep or cuddled to sleep. So for families with multiples, I'd generally say you might aim to avoid contact naps even in those first few months and just work on cot settling from the get -go. And I think too, there are some families who will come to us and they just say, I went through the ringer with my older children and I want to
Dr Laura (08:27)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (08:50)
everything perfectly from day dot to have the best possible sleep on my hands. You might know that you just do not cope with a lack of sleep. And I would say if you feel like that, then consider avoiding day, contact naps. I was going to say consider avoiding day naps, but definitely don't do that. That won't work so well. Yeah, that's not going to work.
Dr Laura (09:08)
No, you will feel much worse.
Dr Fallon (09:17)
But yeah, look, there's always with contact naps, there's always this chance that as the baby gets towards that three month mark, that being held to sleep and having that contact nap starts to become a bit of a habit. And then they might start to become really challenging to settle at other times because at 3am they're thinking, well, why should I go to sleep in my cot? Because I know that sometimes I get to fall asleep in your arms.
So that's always something to think about. So if a parent's really focused on the best possible sleep and the quickest timeframe, that's when I would say, we'll just avoid contact naps in the daytime. As soon as they look like they're showing tired signs, pop them down in their cot and just start to practice really, because babies only get used to what we support them through and what we teach them and what we show them. So, you know, if you just keep practicing cot settling, that will be the only place that they expect to fall asleep and that can mean avoiding
Dr Laura (10:00)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (10:13)
sleep becoming challenging in the future. Laura, I liked Fiona's question, you know, do they kind of outgrow contact maps? Is it something that babies will tend to decide they no longer want? What are your thoughts on this?
Dr Laura (10:25)
Hmm. I look some might some might, but most babies who are having contact that's will continue to really enjoy and expect them potentially for several years. Because it's it's lovely. What else I mean, what a lovely thing to be able to do.
Dr Fallon (10:30)
A few.
Dr Laura (10:51)
lying on mum or dad a few times a day and having that lovely snuggle is not necessarily something that a youngster is going to want to give up on their own. So I wouldn't be expecting your little girl Fiona to just, you know, at eight months or 12 months or, you know, one and a half to suddenly say, that's all right, mum, I don't need to do a contact nap anymore. I'd like to nap in my bed.
If she did, awesome, but I wouldn't be expecting her to outgrow it. And it may be something that you actually need to support her away from when the time is right for you and her. What do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (11:33)
And I think that's, yeah, that's such an important consideration is at some point it might not be practical to hold them to sleep. And it might be that there are some tricky settles as you're trying to support them and show them that it's okay. We can fall asleep in other places too. And I think that's an important factor to consider if you're the type of parent who's likely to find that very, very hard. It might be that you just avoid it by just working on cot settling instead of having contact naps even right from.
Dr Laura (12:00)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (12:02)
from the get -go. I have had three -year -olds in clinic who are held and have contact naps and their parents are beside themselves because their three -year -olds are very heavy. Sometimes parents are still standing and rocking them to sleep for them to have a day nap and it's not good for your back or your pelvic floor. It's not good for your mental health. I think at that point, you know, you need to have a little bit of a break when your baby or your toddler has a rest. So I think
Dr Laura (12:20)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (12:29)
What would we advise for, you know, for parents who just say, I just want the best possible sleep. Cause I suspect a lot of parents listening into this and certainly our Sombelle members are just like, I just want the best sleep I can get. What do I do? Should I do them? You know, should I avoid them? I think probably my first bit of advice is do some contact maps in those first zero to sort of three month kind of range, because it's lovely. Your baby's brand new. They're to being all snug and cuddled up.
Dr Laura (12:45)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (12:58)
So providing them with some contact maps is a lovely thing to do. But I would say start to introduce some cot naps as well. So there's two different ways or places of sleeping, areas they fall asleep that are familiar. There's a little bit of both. It's not that the cot is entirely unfamiliar and therefore, you know, going to feel overwhelming when they're placed there. They're a little bit used to both. What would you say, Laura?
Dr Laura (13:24)
Yeah, absolutely. So contact NAPs in the first nought to three months. And after that, don't be afraid to, and even during that time, don't be afraid to be putting your baby down into their cot or bassinet just before they're asleep. So that drowsy but awake, just so that they notice when they're going down into their cot or bassinet, can kind of look around, see where they are, drift off to sleep, perhaps with some patting or your hands resting on them.
And then when they come up through one sleep cycle, they might have a little look, yeah, that's right, this is where I was when I fell asleep a short while ago. And then they may be more likely to go back into their next sleep cycle and do another one in their cot or the bassinet. If you've been doing contact naps for much longer period of time and say your child is eight months old before you decide to move away from contact naps,
Don't be surprised or alarmed if your baby really pushes back when you do put them down in their cot during the day rather than offering them a contact nap. They have every right to feel really stroppy about it because this is new and different. It's very unfamiliar. And if you haven't been able to give them those experiences earlier on for whatever reason, parental choice or just situation, then when you do make that decision,
to start to give them some naps in the Kotl Basinet. Be prepared for a little bit of protesting from them. It's perfectly reasonable response on their part. Your job is to stay calm and consistent and support them in knowing that this is a new place that they're sleeping and it's just as safe and perhaps not quite as comfortable as on top of mum's boobs, but...
You know, it's still a nice place for a baby to be sleeping and have a look at through the different settling approaches in Sombelle and choose which approach is going to support or feel best fit for you and your baby and use that approach as you're settling
Dr Fallon (15:23)
Mmm.
Yeah, I think that's really lovely advice. And look, I generally say to parents that if you are having, especially if your baby's three months or older, if you are having any difficulties with nighttime sleep, where they're waking a lot and you're just having hard nights, I would stop doing the contact naps. And that's generally what I'll say in clinic is you might do some pram naps instead, or even plan some car naps.
Dr Laura (15:52)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (16:00)
but move away from holding them to sleep because so often when nights are really tricky and they're having contact nuts in the day, they're waking up at night and thinking, yeah, well, why can't I stay in your arms? You've picked me up for a cuddle, I'm calm now, but I do not want to go back in my cot because I know that this is actually one of my preferred places to sleep and I'd rather stay here in your arms. Thank you very much. So if you're having tricky nights, I would say that's the time to go, okay, let's
Dr Laura (16:12)
Yes.
Yes!
Dr Fallon (16:29)
you know, all of the settles in the court or maybe, you know, some pram or carnaps sort of smattered throughout the day. You know, if you just need a bit of a break and an easy settle, that's fine. but maintain that consistency because if there's variation and you sometimes do this and sometimes do that, we know that then that can just cause them to continue waking at night thinking, well, maybe this time, you know, maybe this is going to be the time where I can have a snuggle back to sleep. So I think it's so dependent
Dr Laura (16:50)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (16:57)
what your baby is like. There will be parents who have wonderful sleepers who will hate this podcast episode. They'll probably write to us to tell us to, because their experiences that contact naps worked fine and their babies slept beautifully overnight. And to all those parents, like, this is not for you. It's not. If you've got to, you know, there are going to be babies who can have contact naps and sleep well overnight and that's fine. But for the ones who don't sleep well overnight, it often can be because
Dr Laura (17:05)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:24)
Yeah, those babies know there's another way to fall asleep and I'm not going to give up until we do it that way. Yeah, so definitely important to consider the individual baby and just remember that as a parent, a cot is a perfectly reasonable place for your baby to fall asleep. And you do have the power to make a decision on what will work best for you. I think there can be a lot of guilt thrown around, especially online about, you know, they're only young once.
Dr Laura (17:29)
Yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:53)
They're not going to want to sleep in your arms forever. Well, no, they're not, but it could be three or four years. So that's probably going to feel like forever. So it's totally fine for you as a parent to go, no, cot settling is going to work better for me. I'm going to get more rest. It's better on my back. You know, it could be a whole host of reasons. It's perfectly valid. You know, you have permission to make that call. You can support your child as they get used to falling asleep somewhere different. That's a perfectly fine thing to do.
Dr Laura (17:58)
Mm -hmm.
And life goes on when you have a baby. So there will be some things that you need to do during the day that are hard to do in the company of a baby or toddler. So you might have phone calls you need to make when they're asleep, having a nap. You might need to do some work on your laptop. You might need to do some chores. And those things are hard to do if your baby will only contact
Dr Fallon (18:33)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (18:51)
So life does carry on. We don't suddenly suspend participation in the community when we become parents. you know, harking back to what things were like in the caveman times is unhelpful because none of us are living in those times now. We're living in a 24 hour society where things have to get done. And there's a lot of life admin.
Dr Fallon (18:52)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (19:18)
And sometimes it's just easy, or often it's actually just easier to do those things whilst your little one is having a nap. So if you want to move away from content naps, you have our permission to do it. You don't need our permission, but it's fine to do
Dr Fallon (19:20)
Mmm.
You totally do. And yeah, absolutely. And you might even just use that time to rest. And that is a hundred percent valid as well. You deserve rest. You don't have to be productive during that time. You've got to look after yourself. So yeah, keep that in mind, I think going forward. Yeah. If you're having a tricky settle, you know, it's okay to persist, keep going, give your baby lots of support and they will get used to it.
Dr Laura (19:39)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (19:58)
We had some great questions come through this week, Laura. Maybe I'll start, I'll read out Cassie's question. So Cassie says, my little girl is nearly seven months old and she has previously logged about a 12 and a half hour sleep need, but that was back at five and a half months of age. So it's been a little while since Cassie measured her sleep need. Cassie says, I'm thinking I may need to reassess.
Dr Laura (20:17)
Mm. Mm
Dr Fallon (20:24)
But the last time I tried to do a sleep diary, her sleep was so erratic that it was hard to document it accurately. Well, before I finish reading this, I'll just say erratic is okay in a sleep diary. Just do your best. So we sometimes get parents who say, the sleep diary is all over the place. So I just didn't bother keeping it anymore. And we're like, no, we need to see the erratic. We want to see the erratic. It can tell us a lot about what's happening with sleep. Even if it's erratic, still keep your diary, still.
Dr Laura (20:43)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr Fallon (20:52)
calculate that total average sleep duration. It is really important. So Cassie describes how her daughter is difficult to settle at bedtime. She wakes at about 9 .30 p after she fell asleep at bedtime and then every 45 minutes to two hours until morning, which is very tiring. Cassie says if she offers a quick breastfeed, she's back asleep again in five to 10 minutes, but wakes 45 minutes later wondering where the boob went.
Yet if she tries not to feed her, then she can be awake and crying. So it's just easier to offer quick feeds so everyone is quickly back to sleep. I think this will be so relatable to so many parents listening. Cassie says they're offering solids, but she doesn't eat much yet. So she solely relies on breast milk and that her feeds have become shorter during the day. Cassie would like to know how to tell if her daughter is hungry or in need of comfort.
how often a seven month old should be feeding overnight and where she should start in terms of reducing overnight wakes.
Dr Laura (21:57)
Wow, Cassie, my goodness, I bet you're shattered. So you potentially are feeding your seven month old every 45 minutes overnight. As the most frequent, sometimes there might be a two minute, a two hour stretch between feeds overnight. And let's say she's in bed overnight for 10 or 11 hours. That's a lot.
of feeds overnight, that's more than a newborn would need. So I think I'd be very confident in saying that your seven month old does not need to feed. Probably that would be what somewhere between six to eight times a night, which is what she'd be doing at the moment. What we generally say is that if a baby is over six months of age,
Dr Fallon (22:39)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (22:52)
is having solids three meals a day. doesn't have to be big meals, but three established meals a day. And as long as their weight gain is okay, then we can look to reduce the number of feeds and even stop the feeds that they're having overnight because they're ultimately meeting all of their nutritional requirements during the day. So your baby is in the range where we could be looking at reducing and dropping the feeds, Cassie. And I think it
highly unlikely that your baby would be feeling hungry every 45 minutes overnight. So some of those wake -ups that she would be having overnight are unlikely to be due to hunger. However, you are also highlighting that she's not having big breastfeeds during the day and her meals aren't that big. So I can see then where the doubt comes in.
Dr Fallon (23:29)
Mmm, yeah.
Dr Laura (23:49)
And you're as a parent, can't help yourself in that. Of course you want to be ensuring your baby has all the food that they need. But what we can end up being in is this awful vicious cycle where a baby is having so many feeds overnight that then they're waking up in the morning quite full because they've been feeding multiple times overnight, which means that they don't start the morning with a big feed.
Dr Fallon (23:58)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (24:18)
which means that they don't necessarily take much in at breakfast time, which then means it just kind of, it just keeps going round and round and round. They don't have a great deal of food during the day to eat just small snack feeds all during the day. And then that means that nighttime you're back on the same hamster wheel and round and round you go. So one of the things that can be really helpful Cassie is to think about what would be the
Dr Fallon (24:23)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (24:47)
a reasonable lowest number of feeds that you would offer your baby overnight. And it might be that if you're feeding her six times a night at the moment, and they're all quite short feeds, you might say, well, do you know what, I'm going to aim for maybe three feeds overnight. And I will feed her at these particular times when she wakes. And all other times, I will use a different approach to settling her. And then I'll give do that for a few days to give her body time to adjust and start to take in a little
bigger feeds and more solids during the day, and then drop down to two feeds overnight for another few days, and then drop down to one feed overnight. And then whenever you're ready, and as long as she's eating well during the day, her weight gains, okay, you can drop that feed when it feels right for you.
Dr Fallon (25:38)
Mm, I think that's fantastic advice, Laura. I think it's good to keep in mind that for a seven month old learning to eat solids, it's a challenging skill. There's so much they're thinking about. They're trying to coordinate hands and lips and tongue and throat and you know, it takes a lot of energy. So unless they're feeling a little bit hungry, they might not feel super motivated to put in all this hard work to eat some solid food.
So yeah, I would say there's so many calories going in at nighttime. It's taking the edge off that daytime hunger, which is probably why she's not so interested in solid food. But definitely you can start to reduce those night feeds like you've described Laura and keep an eye on the solid food consumption. If she continues to show no interest in solids, it could be worth getting her checked out for an oral assessment through a speech pathologist, for example.
Chances are, I think as those night feeds reduce, you'll start to see things really change. She'll take bigger feeds in the daytime, bigger milk feeds. She'll be a bit more interested in solid foods as well. So yeah, I would also just say I would definitely measure her sleep needs again. Keep that diary because Cassie mentioned she can be difficult to settle at bedtime.
And often that is just that they're not quite ready for sleep. So I would measure her sleep needs again. Look at the daily rhythms in some bowel to get a bit of a sense of what you could try for your baby Cassie, because having high enough sleep pressure at nighttime is important. Sleep pressure is really low. Often when you don't offer a feed, they do just get really, really upset. They've got plenty of energy to push back. And when you try to settle them without the feed, they're just furious. Whereas if sleep pressure is higher, they go, I'm not being offered the the feed, but
I'm getting all this lovely other support and that's good enough because I'm pretty tired and I'm getting some nice pats or a cuddle or whatever else. so getting the sleep pressure right is probably going to make dropping those night feeds a whole lot easier. yeah. So I think that's, that's probably most of what I would say.
Dr Laura (27:36)
Yeah, I think so. I just wanted to jump in, Fallon, just to say in terms of the accuracy of the sleep diary. When you are recording your child's sleep, it doesn't have to be 100 % accurate. So we've spoken about in the past, one of the things that some parents will do if they have a child that's waking up at random times overnight, is they just take a screenshot on their phone.
Dr Fallon (27:50)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (28:02)
each time your baby wakes up, take a screenshot so you don't even have to turn the phone on, just do a screen, know, screenshot, and then a screenshot when they go back to sleep. And then the next day, just have a quick look and then just fill out the sleep diary based on that if you're using one of our Sleepy Excel or the Word document. And also whether it's quarter past two or half past two, it isn't really a big issue. It's
Dr Fallon (28:03)
Mm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (28:31)
So it doesn't have to be 100 % accurate in terms of the exact time. It's like, well, look, if she's waking, her wakes more often in the first half of the night or the second half of the night, are they generally just a few minutes or are they, is she awake for an hour or 20, you know, or just 20 minutes or, so that we can then look at, okay, she's in bed for 12 hours overnight, but actually on average, she's only asleep for 10 hours of that time. Once we take into consideration all the times that she is awake.
Dr Fallon (28:50)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (29:00)
then that is how we will then go, all right, well, let's then say she doesn't need to be in her bed overnight for 12 hours because she's actually only managing to sleep for 10 hours of that. So let's look at bringing bedtime a little bit later or wake up a little bit earlier, for
Dr Fallon (29:18)
Hmm. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. So yeah, Cassie start with your sleep diary and look at the daily rhythm and then definitely work towards dropping those feeds. You don't need to feel worried that she's hungry. She's getting plenty of opportunities to feed. Spacing them out a little bit is a very sensible idea at this point. Laura, we had a question from Kate.
Kate has a seven month old baby girl, so another seven month old. She has a 14 hour sleep need. Kate says she wakes at about 7 .30 a Goes to bed at around 6 .30 p She falls asleep calmly and independently for all naps and at bedtime, but during the night she feeds back to sleep. She's in her own room in a cot. Kate says we put her in a sleeping bag. She uses a dummy as well.
Dr Laura (29:43)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (30:05)
It seems no matter what we do. She just won't sleep through the night Kate says we've tried more awake time and less awake time Some nights she wakes every 45 minutes for the first few cycles and others. She will do about three hours before waking Some nights recently she does this at the beginning of the night, but then does a long chunk in the second half of the night Kate wonders should they keep experimenting with awake time and naps should they ditch the dummy?
Or should we just accept she's a baby and will at some point sleep through when she's ready?
Dr Laura (30:37)
Okay, it sounds like you're doing lots of wonderful things. I wouldn't be ditching the dummy at this point. I think what we're seeing here is a baby who needs a slightly different daily rhythm. What you're describing is that your baby is actually in bed overnight for 13 hours because they're going to bed at 630. Yeah, and then waking up at 730. And given that she has a 14 hour sleep need that's only leaving an hour left.
Dr Fallon (30:57)
Yeah, it's a lot, isn't
Dr Laura (31:06)
for her daytime sleep. So I would be looking at moving bedtime, either moving bedtime a little bit later and or moving wake up time in the morning a bit earlier. And so you might look at doing 12 hours overnight perhaps and then you've got around two hours during the day or maybe even 11 hours overnight. And then you've got three hours during the day.
Dr Fallon (31:08)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:35)
Just have a look at those daily rhythm charts for a 14 hour sleep need baby and see what's going to suit you best. Because it sounds like you've done an awesome job of having her in a cot in a sleeping bag. She can settle herself independently. And once you have that timing a little bit more in line with her sleep needs, she's very likely to sleep for longer stretches.
Dr Fallon (31:37)
Yeah, for sure.
Mmm.
I totally agree. I think it sounds so much like a sleep pressure problem. And Kate mentioned they've tried less sleep, more, know, mucked around a bit. Pick one daily rhythm, go in and download that 14 hour sleep need chart so you get a bit of a sense of what a 14 hour rhythm could look like. Once you decide what it's going to be, stick to it religiously for a week to allow her circadian rhythm time to adjust.
Remember one what happens on one day does not directly impact that night. The circadian rhythm kind of operates across the week So you might need to apply one daily rhythm for a full week to actually understand how that daily rhythm impacts the nights So it will take a bit of consistency to really test that out But I think there's a really high chance even though it'll be a bit tricky on a new rhythm at first It always is it will pay off. So so do just stick to
I don't think you need to ditch the dummy, but definitely work on some dummy replacement practice, put it in her hand and then help her lift her hand up to her mouth. because she's seven months old, she should be starting to develop the sort of, gross and fine motor skills required to replace her own dummy. and no, I don't think you should just accept it, and wait for her to sleep through. I think this can be, you know, it could be a week on a new daily rhythm and this should sort itself out. So you may as well just do it, you know, she'll be happier knowing that
You know getting good quality long stretches of sleep should likely be happier during the day I think it's definitely worth working on rather than just waiting because these sorts of problems often hang around or even worsen Over time so better to get onto it now Yeah, well done Kate. I think you're doing a fantastic
Dr Laura (33:34)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
We've had an email from Elizabeth and Elizabeth's 15 month old has recently learned how to settle herself asleep in her cot, which has resulted in fewer night wakes. However, she'll only nap for one sleep cycle and then wakes. They try to resettle her for 20 minutes, but usually she won't go back to sleep. Elizabeth states that her baby's sleep needs are between 12 and 13 hours. She goes to bed at 7 or 7 .30.
at night depending on the length of her nap and she wakes at about 6 .30 in the morning. Elizabeth wonders why she's still waking after just one sleep cycle during the day. hang on after just one sleep cycle and we'd like our advice on what to do. Fallon now is she waking after one sleep cycle for her nap or at night?
Dr Fallon (34:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, just for the nap. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. yeah, it's a good question. I think you're doing all the right things, Elizabeth. You're trying to resettle, but she's just generally not wanting to resettle. And that really tells us that she's probably just had enough sleep. So it could be that you just go, okay, we're just doing a one sleep cycle day nap. And for some toddlers that works perfectly fine. She's really happy, copes fine for the rest of the day on one sleep cycle.
Dr Laura (34:32)
Just for the nap, yeah. Yeah, okay.
Dr Fallon (35:00)
then that could actually work in favor for your family because it means that she has a longer amount of time of sleep at night. Generally that's what will happen. If they get less day sleep, they're to get a little bit more at night because they're playing catch up. So it could just work fine for your family. If you really want to push for maybe it's an hour and a half day nap you're going for, so two sleep cycles, then think about her total sleep need. said it's between 12 and 13 hours.
Dr Laura (35:12)
Mmm.
12 and 13.
Dr Fallon (35:28)
I would work out what is the average, is the average 12 and a half, in which case you want to allow for 11 hours overnight and an hour and a half in the daytime. So if you want that longer nap, it might be that you have to persist with a shorter night and over the course of a week, you might start to see that she does do that longer day nap. I don't think there's a clear right or wrong though. If you're desperate for a longer day nap and you don't mind, you know, 7 .30 PM bedtime and a 6 .30 AM wake up, for example.
give it a try. see how you go. Yeah.
Dr Laura (35:57)
Mm. Yeah. And like for Kate, just make sure that you choose that rhythm and stick with it for a week and see if your toddler does begin to have one consistent longer day nap.
Dr Fallon (36:16)
Yeah, absolutely. Marilyn also wrote in, so she has a three year old and a 15 month old toddler and they've both been quite unsettled lately when it comes to bedtime. Marilyn says, we think it might be because there are currently some packed boxes and suitcases in preparation for our move in a few weeks time. And she thinks that maybe her little ones can sense that there's a change coming, but they don't know exactly when and maybe they're feeling a little bit anxious about it.
So Marilyn says, I would be grateful if you can share any thoughts and suggestions you have to help reassure our little ones and to have less separation anxiety around bedtime due to the upcoming move. She says, would you also recommend the same sorts of strategies when we travel, for example, using the same cot sheet that we've been using so it would have the same smell?
Dr Laura (37:08)
Hmm. Okay. What an interesting question. So Marilyn, it sounds like you're right in the midst of lots of big changes in your life with a house move. And we know that that can be really a stressful life event for adults and therefore also for children. What I would be thinking about is what is going to be practical in this situation? You of course can't just make all of these moving boxes disappear.
and there is going to be some just general raised levels of energy in the house when it is around a time where a house move is happening. So what we can control is and what we should be thinking about in this scenario when it comes to sleep for your three year old and your toddler is how to make bedtime be as consistent as possible. So whilst all these other things that are happening around your little ones are
may be little bit discombobulating. think that's a word I've now used a couple of times in this episode. What they know is familiar is that at nap time and at bedtime, these same series of events happen in the same order, regardless of what's happening in the hallway or the sitting room or in the back garden. They know that
have a bath or shower and that they get into their pajamas and they have a song and a cuddle and a story and maybe they have a milk feed and then they go into their cots. And those things stay the same. So do everything you can to protect their bedtime and nap time routine so that they are feeling safe, secure and kind of structured at bedtime.
And also think about if they do have separation anxiety, reading through the chapters where we cover that in Sombelle, but what we, the main things to keep in mind are that we don't want to trigger an anxious response in them by you leaving before they are fully asleep. And so looking to use one of the approaches where you stay with them as they're falling asleep, and then you slowly build up their confidence at going to sleep.
whilst you're on the other side of the room, or you just step outside of the room for a few seconds and then come back. And depending on what the timeframe is for this move, it might be that actually you just pause making a, trying to progress on perhaps the cove sleeping fade out or the parental fading approach. Just pause it, wait until you're in the new place and
after a week or so of being in the new place, then start to use the leaving the room for a short length of time, just once at the start of the night when they're a little bit more settled. But what do you think Fallon? Would you add anything else?
Dr Fallon (40:03)
Hmm. Yeah, I think that's all great advice. I would say to answer the question, is it the same like if we travel, do we keep the same bedding on the bed so it smells familiar in the new place? 100 % yes, definitely do that. I'd also be thinking about what you can do to explain the move and prepare the children for the move.
a 15 month old, it's going to be a little bit more challenging, but certainly with a three year old, you can be doing a lot of play and a lot of talk around moving house. Like you could set up, you know, one box and this is the Teddy's house. This is where they live, but they're moving house soon and they're going to go to this new house and there's another, you've probably got a house full of boxes. So it's a perfect game to play. but you can show them how, even when they move house, they have the same, they get to take their same blanket, their same favorite toy. the bed's going to be the same. You can.
talk through how the Teddys mum and dad are still gonna be in the next room. We all move together. I know I've moved house a lot with my children and my children would always say, have we got everything? Are we leaving anything behind? But what if I did leave my Teddys? And so talking to them a lot about how, you my job as your mum is to make sure we have everything packed because everything is coming with us. And when we get to the house, all of your things will be there. We might have to find them, but they will be there.
And so, yeah, make it a bit of a game, explain it, you know, demonstrate it with the Teddys, talk about how it's gonna change. If you can show them photos of the new house or even go to the new house with them and talk about, you could take some photos of their furniture at home and say, where are you gonna put them in your new room? Should we put that cupboard here? Will Teddy live here? It can just help them understand that everything's moving, we all go together, mom and dad will still be there, you'll still have all of your things there.
I think there's a lot to be said for playing those sorts of games. And I'm sure there are picture books and things about moving house as well. And often just hearing it in a story form really makes it, you know, make sense in their minds what's actually going to happen. So good luck, Marilyn, with the move. And I agree with you, Laura, too. If it feels too hard to make big changes around settling, wait until you've moved in, they've settled in and found their feet. It's a really good idea.
And one last question we have is from Jess. So Jess begins by saying, thank you so much for the work you've put into the Somba program and podcast. She says it's by far the most evidence -based and holistic program I've found. Well, thank you so much, Jess. Actually, we had so much beautiful feedback from all these parents who email in questions, but we just haven't had time to read it out. But I do want to say, excuse me. Thank you so much for all of the really kind words. It does mean a lot to us.
So Jess's baby girl is five months old and Jess describes that she averages about 12 and a half to 13 and a half hours of sleep per day. Her bedtime is 8 p Wake up time is about 6 a and Jess aims to give her three day naps. A 30 minute nap in the morning, a two hour lunchtime nap and 30 minutes in the afternoon. But there is a lot of variability. So sometimes the morning nap is the long one and then the other day there are other days where she only catnaps all day.
Jess also describes that her baby tends to be nursed to sleep for naps and overnight and she wants to work on cot settling but her husband is often away for work. So she wonders is there a particular approach we would recommend for solo parents that are trying to reduce a feed to sleep association? And Jess also wonders how she can get more predictability with the day naps. So for example how to help her consolidate her naps into longer stretches and avoid you know catnapping all day.
Dr Laura (43:48)
Hmm. It is a meaty one. My first thought is to get a really comprehensive understanding of what her sleep need is. So 12 and a half to 13 and a half hours. It's an hour difference in that. And that will have a real knock on effect in terms of how long those naps are. The daily rhythm that you've described,
Dr Fallon (43:48)
So it's a bit of a meaty one, but what would you say, Laura?
Dr Laura (44:18)
suggests that you're giving her about a 13 hour sleep need. If she actually only has a 12 hour sleep need or 12 and a half hour, it may be that she just needs slightly let that middle of the day nap might be better off being an hour and a half, for example. So that would be my first thought. Just log her sleep for the next week and just see where is it? Where do the cards fall when you actually just see where she's at right now?
And then I would be thinking in terms of what approach would be, no, sorry, before going on to which approach would be better, ensuring that you're waking her up in the morning at the same time every day. Cause that, you want your aims is to get a little bit more predictability into the day. So having that set wake up time in the morning, really good way of doing that.
In terms of the approach, I would be thinking...
If your husband, or since your husband is often away for work, if you
thing if you did want to use like a quick approach and you had a stretch of time, maybe when your husband is home just for maybe five days, you could think about trying to use one of the quicker approaches whilst your husband's there just to break that association between nursing to sleep or feeding and going to sleep, of getting that, getting a bit of distance between the sleep and falling asleep.
whilst your husband is there to help support you do that. And then when he goes away, then you've kind of done the hard work of it. And then it's just easier for you then to maintain it once he's not there. What are your thoughts, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (46:14)
Yeah, I think there's lots of single parents who just have to go through this alone and they don't have that chance to have someone else come in and do some of the settling when they're trying to stop feeding to sleep. It can be done. I would definitely be thinking hard about temperament. Is your child going to be comforted by you sitting nearby and padding them to sleep instead? Is that something they're likely to respond to? Or will they be furious that you're right there and you're not feeding them? So for some of these babies,
Dr Laura (46:42)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (46:45)
creating a little bit of distance is actually really helpful. I know a lot of parents will say nonsense, there's no way. But a lot of parents are surprised, even just putting a chair, you know, on the other side of the room or just near the door or maybe even just step outside of their line of sight even. Some babies immediately start to calm down. Instead of looking to you to calm them, they go, well, how can I make myself calm? And that's when they start to use their own self soothing behaviors like sucking on their hands and kind of trying to, you know, get off to sleep.
So consider some of the approaches where you do just step out of sight. Cause sometimes that can actually work really, really well. You don't ever have to leave for very long, but just, creating a little bit of space briefly, sometimes really surprises parents and works well. But otherwise I agree with you, Laura, look at that daily rhythm. And when husband is home, well, it's his job a couple of nights, he's going to be going in and doing all the resettling. you'll still offer some feeds, but try not to feed back to sleep and get your husband to do the resettles.
yeah, I think, I think that's a really fair way to kind of split the labor. You're having long stretches where you're parenting solo, which is really hard. so perfectly reasonable for when he's home to do a couple of nights where he does more of the settling, so that you're getting a bit of a rest after having days and days of solo parenting. and yeah, once he returns to work, you just carry on doing exactly what he's been doing. So it is totally possible. Even if you're the breastfeeding parent, you can still make progress.
and just be thinking about, yeah, temperament and how your baby tends to down -regulate. Is it better to be there with them, with hands -on support or better just to, you know, get out of their way and see how they go instead? Awesome. All right. So look, we've, we've gone for a long time today. So I think we could wrap things up now, but I love these questions. I think we've gone to a lot of different, like a lot of problems that parents talk about all the time to us and ask us questions about all the time.
Dr Laura (48:23)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (48:42)
Hopefully a lot of our listeners have found that some of these questions have really resonated with their own situations that they're in with sleep. And we really hope that you found that really helpful. I'm gonna set some homework for our listeners this week because we've been doing some really hard work on our social media channels and trying to, we've really been listening to parent feedback. We're trying to produce some video content that gives you some really helpful and useful information.
So what I want you all to do is go and give us a follow on Instagram or Facebook and have a look. We've got a video where I demonstrate how to check that your white noise machine is operating safely. So it's not going to damage your baby's hearing. It's a really easy thing to check. And I'll talk you through exactly how to check this. takes a couple of minutes and then you've got peace of mind knowing that you've got the right set up for your white noise machine. So go and check that out. Do that little test. Hopefully it all comes back safe. And if it's not, you can...
tweak the volume and you'll get it just right. We also did another video about what to look for in a comforter for babies that are seven months or older. There are several key factors you wanna make sure are not present on the comforter that can make a comforter actually dangerous. So we made a little video explaining what those things are to look for. Really good one to look out for if you're thinking of getting a comforter for your baby or toddler. So go and check that out and then go and have a look at any comforters you've bought and make sure they're completely safe.
if you love our podcast, of course, leave a review, please subscribe to the podcast. if you're in need of support, go and check out Sombelle. and if you're a Sombelle member, be sure to book in for a coaching call. If you're feeling a bit stuck and you want some one -on -one guidance from me or from Laura, there are coaching calls available and we love them. They're one of my favorite things to do. So book in and, we look forward to meeting you and your little one and working out a really excellent plan.
Dr Laura (50:27)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (50:36)
for sleep and settling. So thanks everyone for joining in and yeah, we'll see you again next week.
Dr Laura (50:42)
Yeah, all right. Thanks, everyone. Bye bye.
