Dr Fallon (00:38)
Sometimes your baby or toddler's sleep is going to be really challenging and you might work on a new approach and find you just aren't getting any traction. But don't lose hope. In this episode, we're going to unpack the key factors to think about when addressing your baby or toddler's sleep difficulties. With each of these factors considered, you'll be on the path to more restful nights.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a particular focus on sleep and settling during the first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. How are you, Laura?
Dr Laura (01:19)
I'm good, thanks, Fallon. Thinking about all those families who have recently entered parenthood, all those mums and dads who have a new baby and are just flying by the seat of their pants. Thinking, my goodness, what is happening with sleep? Why is my baby not sleeping? Why can't I sleep? And all of the challenges that you have in those first few months. So I know we've had quite a few families join, Sombelle.
Dr Fallon (01:28)
Mmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (01:48)
recently and they've joined the Little Baby program. So I hope that you're all going to enjoy this episode as we unpack and unpick what might be happening with your baby's sleep.
Dr Fallon (01:59)
Yeah.
Yeah. And look, I so vividly remember being in the trenches with my own little ones when their sleep was up and down as it is for every baby. You know, in those first few months, there's always going to be ups and downs. And I know when you're in the thick of it, it just feels like you're sort of lost that you're struggling just to find a way forward. And it can feel almost like you're, you're stuck in this kind of quagmire of like, how do I, how do I
Dr Laura (02:22)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:32)
get past this, I'm just so exhausted. I don't even know what to do. I've heard so much conflicting information. you know, my mom's got an opinion, the lady down the road's got an opinion, everybody on the internet's got an opinion. but you're so exhausted. You just feel really paralyzed. and it's really hard to know which way to turn. and that's kind of the motivation for this week's podcast episode that.
Dr Laura (02:33)
Hmm.
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (02:57)
We were really thinking there's probably five key things we really want you to think about if you're in, you're stuck in that kind of place where you're feeling like it's really hard to make progress. we thought it make a great topic for this podcast. And we had a song bell member, a new song bell member, Jessica, who actually wrote in and it really got me thinking. And I thought, yep, this is not just specific to Jessica. It's something that so many parents go through when they sort of set out on a journey to improve sleep.
Dr Laura (03:06)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (03:25)
so let's start by diving into Jessica's question and then we'll start to think through those sort of five key things you can think about if you're struggling with your baby or your toddler's sleep.
Dr Laura (03:34)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (03:35)
So Jessica is a new Sombelle member and she emailed us because she's off to a bumpy start using the quick fade approach to settle her four month old. Jessica's trying to get her baby to take longer day naps, but she only catnaps and she's resisting resettling. Jessica says she looks really tired after a catnap, but just refuses to resettle. So Jessica puts her in the pram to extend the nap.
Jessica has been working on this for just under a week now and wonders if she should keep persisting with that approach or is it time to do something different? What are your first thoughts Laura?
Dr Laura (04:11)
Hmm.
Yeah, Jessica, well done for picking an approach that you feel is the right one for you and your baby. And I just want to reassure you that when you start to work on your baby's sleep, can take, it usually does take a little while for any changes to stick. So try not to be disheartened when you're not seeing.
changes immediately. And it's really hard when you are using a new settling approach and your baby is a catnapper because sometimes it can feel like you're taking a long time to settle your baby to sleep and then they only give you one sleep cycle and then you're back to them being awake again for the next period of time. And it sounds really hard, Jessica, that even when you do put her in the pram to try to extend her nap.
Dr Fallon (04:45)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (05:12)
in the pram, she's just not able to do another sleep cycle and add in the, perhaps the worry and anxiety you might be feeling if she does look like she's still tired. It can just make for a really tricky period of time. But just know it's not always going to feel this bad, Jessica. And what we'll do now is just take you through some things that you could be considering.
Dr Fallon (05:32)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (05:42)
whilst you're in the trenches as you are.
Dr Fallon (05:42)
Mmm.
Yeah. And I think you've tapped into that first factor really nicely, Laura, that I would say first up, it's really important to accept that a bit of trial and error is really, really normal. So as a parent, if you've got some sleep difficulties with your baby or your toddler and you're trying to change things, you, you might not, you probably won't strike upon the most perfect approach ever. The first time you know, you try to try to change things. Often it's a case of trying something.
Dr Laura (05:58)
Mm
Mm
Dr Fallon (06:15)
And then seeing if it's the right fit for your baby, for their temperament and their personality. You know, there's lots of things that are going to influence what approach is likely to work. So just knowing that even if you try something and it doesn't go well, you've learned something really important about your baby that you didn't know before, that maybe that approach just isn't quite the right approach for them.
Dr Laura (06:32)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think we'll probably come on to this later on, but always just knowing that when you do pick an approach, trying it for a few days first before you say, actually, do know what we're going to do? A little bit of a modification or a little bit of a change. Because when we are trying something out for the first time, it's going to feel new to us and it's going to feel new to our babies.
Dr Fallon (07:06)
Yes.
Dr Laura (07:06)
You don't want to just do it once, think, this hasn't gone as smoothly as I had hoped, and then abandon it and do something different the next settle. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:15)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, got to give it a few days and give it bit of a try. And it's great to hear that Jessica has been working on this for a few days now. The second factor I'd be thinking about is checking for medical factors or physiological factors that could be having an impact on sleep. So if sleep's ever not going well, we really want to be thinking, is there something else at play here that is influencing my child's sleep and maybe impeding progress?
Dr Laura (07:19)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Mm
Dr Fallon (07:42)
I know often in the clinic we're thinking about things like eczema. Eczema can really impact sleep quality. We think it's because they come up into light sleep and if there's any kind of discomfort or irritation on the skin, they're more likely to kind of spring awake at the end of each sleep cycle and want some comfort to get back to sleep. Other things we might look for are signs of tummy upset. If there's mucousy, poos or blood in the poo,
you know, any really watery or frothy poo or excessive vomiting. and then of course, you know, there's factors to do with the actual sleep itself and snoring, know, snoring is not normal in babies. So if you're noticing really persistent snoring, lots of gasps when they're asleep or pauses in their breathing, really important to get those checked out.
Dr Laura (08:30)
Mm
Mm Yeah. And there is the medical factors checklist in Sombelle So Jessica, have a look at that, run through it. Make sure that you're clear that those factors aren't present. And if they are present, then make an appointment with your doctor or health nurse to get those checked out. If there are medical factors present that are influencing sleep.
Dr Fallon (08:51)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (09:02)
then it's unlikely that using behavioural approaches is going to resolve the sleep issue, unless we're also addressing that medical issue. And for that, you'll need help from a medical professional.
Dr Fallon (09:08)
Mmm.
Yeah. And if you've got, you know, collection of those symptoms happening, it might be that now is not the right time to be making big changes to sleep because we're probably not going to see a whole lot of progress. it might be that you need to treat those symptoms first. yeah, of course, working with your doctor. and once those symptoms have resolved or at least improved, then it might be time to work on sleep. So yeah, definitely a good one to be across. And I, there's a, you know, medical factors checklist in the Sombelle program.
Dr Laura (09:24)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (09:43)
And I reckon that's a really good one just to download and print and have it somewhere so you can kind of check in on it if you are worried about your baby or your toddler for that matter.
Dr Laura (09:49)
Mmm.
Yeah. The third factor to be thinking about is your baby or toddler's daily rhythm. So having a think about how much opportunity you're allowing your baby or toddler to have for sleep. So let's think about if your child has a 12 hour sleep need on average every 24 hours.
and you're allowing them 14 hours of opportunity to sleep each day, chances are they're not going to be able to maintain their sleep for that whole 14 hours. And then they may have disrupted sleep and that might involve taking longer to fall asleep for their day naps or waking up after only short naps when you were hoping or anticipating a longer nap or having fragmented nights.
Dr Fallon (10:37)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (10:46)
sleep or up for a while overnight wanting to party. So it's a really good idea to make sure that you do have a sound understanding of how much sleep your child needs so that you can work up a daily rhythm that's based on that particular amount of sleep that they need rather than the amount that you want. I know that there's often a there's a tension between that when
Dr Fallon (10:50)
Hmm.
Yeah
Dr Laura (11:15)
particularly if you have a baby that has a lower sleep need than average, that they might only have, let's say a 12 or 13 hour sleep need. And you really want them to be doing that seven to seven overnight and also napping for three or four hours during the day. And that's just not gonna be possible. No, math doesn't math does it?
Dr Fallon (11:22)
Mmm.
Yeah. The math doesn't add up. Yeah. And yeah, that's it. And we see it so often. And I think it's because there's so much information online that suggests that all babies should be able to have, you know, 15 or 16 hours of sleep per day. So parents are kind of going into sleep thinking, well, I should be able to get, you know, maybe an 11 or 12 hour stretch of sleep overnight. Plus several big long day naps. Cause you know, everyone's being told, yeah, they've got to have long day naps, which actually isn't true, but.
Dr Laura (11:57)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (12:02)
That's what parents are told. so, yeah, I think it's just so, so common with the parents we work with that the amount of opportunity for sleep they're offering their babies or toddlers is just so much more than what they need. And once we do look at, well, what are they averaging? They've got plenty of opportunity to sleep. So if we look at that average, we're going to get a pretty good sense of how much sleep they actually need. And that average will tend to sit on a reasonably consistent amount. And that amount, you know, probably is how much sleep they're actually needing.
Dr Laura (12:32)
Mm
Dr Fallon (12:32)
So when we do adjust that daily schedule to really fit that sleep need, it makes the world of difference because when you're putting them down for sleep, you know that they actually do need to sleep. So that is so, so important. I think it is the thing that is missed the most often. So many people who work in sleep and settling don't consider that component of sleep at all.
Dr Laura (12:51)
Mm.
Mm
Dr Fallon (12:58)
And I think that is the reason why so many parents will say things like, I've tried everything and nothing has worked. And I always just think, come and see us. We can fix this. Yes. Yeah. Cause I mean, a lot of people who work in this space don't have any training in sort of looking at the circadian rhythm and actually understanding sleep. might understand settling, but not the actual sleep so well.
Dr Laura (13:04)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, we know one thing that won't have been looked at. Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (13:25)
So definitely if this, if you're thinking, hang on, that isn't something I've tried yet. or maybe you're a member and you think I probably should revisit that. Use the sleep diary in the Sombelle program, read through that unique sleep needs chapter so that you're working out what, how much sleep can you expect your baby or toddler to actually realistically do. You can start to work out what kind of a daily rhythm is likely to be a good fit. And we have our amazing daily rhythm charts. takes a lot of the guesswork out and gives you a really good start point.
Dr Laura (13:34)
Mm.
Okay
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (13:56)
and yeah, I just think that that is key because sometimes parents go to work on changing how they settle their babies, but their babies aren't tight enough. And then they just have a hideous time because their babies are awake and pushing back against these changes for a really long time. For so many families, we would say work on that daily rhythm, the new daily rhythm for a week and just get that established. Then make the changes to settling. And that's the winning combo. We're only changing the settling.
Dr Laura (14:08)
Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Mm
Dr Fallon (14:24)
when that sleep drive is really nice and strong.
Dr Laura (14:26)
Yeah, yeah, the extra thing I would add there for Jessica is the, the fact that her baby only seems to like to do catnaps, which is usually one sleep cycle. And for some babies, that's just their preference that they, doesn't matter what we do.
Dr Fallon (14:34)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (14:51)
They will only do catnaps often we see it in what we call FOMO babies, where they just want to be up and going and they're fine. I'll have a sleep just to recharge the batteries and then I want to carry on. Now from Jessica's email, I just get the sense that perhaps her baby isn't springing awake and wanting to carry on engaging. Maybe does seem a little bit tired after the just having had a catnap.
Dr Fallon (14:56)
Mm -hmm
Yeah.
Dr Laura (15:21)
However, even when you're giving her all the support to try and resettle, even in the pram, then she's not able to do it. So it may be helpful just to take the pressure off yourself for a little bit, Jessica, and just go, do you know what? For the moment, I'm just going to work on accepting maybe for the next week or two that she's going to have, let's say it's four catnaps or three catnaps a day, depending on what her sleep needs are. And then...
Dr Fallon (15:46)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (15:52)
And so don't worry about trying to resettle her after each of those naps. Because if you're resettling, trying to resettle your baby with a new approach up to four times a day, so you're using the approach to settle her at the start of the nap, then you're doing it when she wakes up. And then you're doing that over and over again, you're going to get exhausted and she's going to get very unhappy with you as well.
Dr Fallon (16:04)
Hmmmm
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (16:16)
So we want to take the pressure off you, Jessica, so that you're not doing eight settles a day, let's say, before and after each nap, and it's four catnaps a day. Just think to yourself, do you know what, I'm going to give myself and my baby permission for a short period of time to just do those catnaps, whilst I then just work on the settling overnight as well, which will bring us on to our next point. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (16:22)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I would just say too, once she masters self settling, that's when you're more likely to see those longer naps emerge. you know, once, so, so sometimes parents feel like, we've got to work on getting these longer naps and then maybe the nights will get better, but actually just take a little rest on the naps, do as many naps on the go as you want to do and let them be cat naps. Take all that pressure off yourself.
Dr Laura (17:02)
Mm
Dr Fallon (17:05)
work on the settling overnight. And when that's going really well, you're much more likely to find that your baby does want to have that slightly longer nap because they can link their sleep cycles. They're practiced at overnight. Yeah, that can make a really big difference. The fourth thing I would say is just to check your approach. So if you decide on an approach, so whether you're doing sombell or not, often parents will say, look, I've decided I'm just going to try and doing the settles this one way.
Dr Laura (17:15)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:32)
If you're only sometimes using that new approach, it is really confusing for your baby. So think about how you're applying to that approach. That approach. If you sometimes for a nap or any, you know, even nighttime sleep, sometimes you're holding or feeding to sleep. And sometimes you're really persisting with cot settling. Your baby will be thinking, well, sometimes, sometimes I can have a feed to sleep or a cuddle to sleep. Maybe I just need to cry a little bit harder and maybe things will change.
Dr Laura (17:54)
Mm
Dr Fallon (18:01)
So they can get caught in this bit of a trap of escalation where they think, if I just cry hard enough, mom or dad's more likely to, you know, stop this cot settling business and not fall asleep in my preferred way. So I would just say when you decide on what approach you're going to use, apply it really, really consistently to make it a whole lot easier on your baby or your toddler to learn that process and understand that every settle is going to be the same.
I've still got lots of support. My parents love me. You might be giving them lots of hands -on support, but you're just sticking with one very predictable and reassuring way of settling them. It can make, yeah, a really, really big difference, just being really steady and really consistent. In a few weeks time, you might have a bit more flexibility and do a few naps in the carrier or something like that, but just initially keeping it the same can really, really help.
Dr Laura (18:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm
Yeah, just to take away any confusion for the baby or toddler, because that confusion is really unsettling. And yeah, they don't know why sometimes you might settle them one way and sometimes you might settle them another. It's confusing. It can be upsetting. Their crying can escalate. So it's actually much kinder all around if you just picked one consistent approach.
Dr Fallon (19:02)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah. Laura, do you know what I hear a lot from parents who have done other approaches, not, ones that we tend to use. They'll often say that I've been patting them to sleep in the cot and if they start to get really upset, I pat faster and then I add in some shushing or maybe some humming. And then when they calm down, I reduce it again. And I kind of get what, why parents think that's a good idea. Cause they're thinking, well, they cry harder. want to do more.
Dr Laura (19:35)
yes.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (19:46)
But actually the baby's learning, well, I get lots and lots of interaction, the harder I cry. And if I calm down, it starts to fizzle out. And so that's, you know, we've got to think about the psychology of the baby's experience there. You know, if you're going to pat them to sleep in the cot, which a lot of parents opt to do that, you know, they move from holding them to sleep, they want them in settling in the cot. So they give them a lot of hands on support. Decide how you're going to pat, whether it's a heartbeat rhythm pat or just a plain
Dr Laura (19:53)
Yes.
Yes.
No.
Dr Fallon (20:16)
predictable path. Pick your pace and stick with it. I have parents who say, yeah, we have a song we put in the AirPods and we just tap in time to that. And it kind of just keeps us on track and keeps it monotonous. And of course babies and toddlers love that monotonous kind of reassurance. So that actual what you're doing, keep that really predictable as well. And if you are using an approach where you're sitting beside the cot and you're trying to be a bit more hands off and you're just giving intermittent reassurance,
Dr Laura (20:24)
yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (20:45)
When you do reach over to them, do the exact same thing each time. Keep it really predictable. It's just crazy how well it works to just keep that, that consistency going. And our Sombelle members will know we, we talk a lot about that all the time in the programs, like be consistent. But it makes such a difference. And we want parents to have the easiest possible time when they are making these changes. We want the babies to have the easiest possible time.
Dr Laura (20:49)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Mm
Mm.
Yeah, we do.
Dr Fallon (21:13)
as well. And we know that parents want that too. And when we're consistent, crying diminishes, it really does reduce. They realize you're always there and that nothing very fun or exciting is going to happen if they get really worked up.
Dr Laura (21:20)
Hmm.
Yeah. And if there's more than one parent involved in the settling, the consistency needs to apply to both parents as well. So make sure that if you have a partner who's also settling your baby, that you are both patting your baby in the same way, if that's an approach that you're using. You know, if one of you is patting really fast and the other one's patting really slow, or one of you has got the handle, you're leaving the hand on, like the
Dr Fallon (21:34)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (21:51)
the heel of the hand on the baby whilst you're patting and the other one is taking your hand off entirely. Then it's just introducing some new variables in there and a baby might prefer one way over the other and may really escalate their crying until they have the parent they prefer coming in to settle them. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (21:57)
Yes.
Mmm.
It's a really good point. I've been telling parents lately, practice it on each other. Like actually pat your husband, you know, on the back, how you're going to pat the baby. Where are you going to pat the baby? Is it, know, on their chest, on their tummy or their hip or, know, actually really have that conversation and same with humming, you know, what are you going to hum? Is it going to be this particular song or this other one? And yeah, really sticking with that. Yeah. It's, makes such a huge difference. think parents often think, they, who cares? It shouldn't matter that much.
Dr Laura (22:18)
Yes! Yes!
Yeah.
No, that's right. That's right. And gosh, see fat, we see many families in the clinic who tell us that their baby will only settle for one parent and goes ballistic if the other parent tries. And we see that at all ages, obviously, as the child is a baby becomes a toddler, the pushback can be so much greater.
Dr Fallon (22:42)
Humming is Humming, not to your baby, it's not. They want the one thing. Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (23:08)
when we have three year olds who will only tolerate being settled by mum or dad. And they're telling the other parent to get out and using that really good expressive language, chucking in some gestures there. And so what we're always looking at is just trying to then reduce any of the variation in what's happening so that then both parents are 100 % consistent in the same way.
Dr Fallon (23:09)
Yes.
Hmm.
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (23:37)
not that dad is consistent in his approach and mom's consistent in her approach, or the two moms or two dads, it's just both are doing exactly the same thing. So, yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:38)
Yeah.
Yes. And isn't that, you know, interesting because I think any parent listening can consider their own sleep and what they do at bedtime. Do you do something completely different every night? Probably not. Like you probably like, I will lie down. I'll look at my phone because I can't help myself. And then when I'm sick of that, it's like, I turn the light out. I tend to lie on a particular side first, you know, and you have these little patterns in behavior. And if you just do them the same every night, you tend to fall asleep really
Dr Laura (24:02)
you
Yes.
Dr Fallon (24:15)
quickly. Whereas if you've got maybe you've got a partner and they're sometimes on their phone for ages and not turning the volume down or the TV is on in the next room or if there's variability when you're trying to fall asleep, you're to have a much harder time falling asleep. We know that if you go and stay at a hotel, you know, it's still got a blanket and a doona, a pillow, whatever, but it's different, a little bit different and it takes you longer to fall asleep. So exact same principles that apply to your sleep apply to your baby's sleep.
Dr Laura (24:30)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Mm
Dr Fallon (24:44)
And I think when parents really start to think about that, like sleep changes, you know, it all, it all comes together. Laura, I do think though that they're, and this is sort of factoring, I suppose relevant to this fifth point we're going to discuss is that sometimes parents have an idea of what the best approach is for their child. They give it a try and then find out actually this isn't working. So there are times when the approach just
Dr Laura (24:47)
Yeah. Yes.
Dr Fallon (25:10)
isn't the right fit for your child. You've tried a few days and you're just like, we're not getting anywhere. And you've taken into account all those other variables. What are the sort of, what are parents going to notice in their child if an approach just is the wrong fit?
Dr Laura (25:11)
Hmm.
Well, I suppose we'll see that the crying behaviour is not reducing at all at bedtime or taking the crying is staying escalated for a very long time. We're not getting the modulations and the crying going from being.
Dr Fallon (25:38)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (25:48)
you know, intense to then just dying down and then maybe intense again and then dying down and then just there being a bit of fussing and a bit of grizzling and then going off to sleep. The crying just tends to stay very high and we're not getting the decreases in the crying behavior. You might also find that if you're using an approach where, for example, where you might be staying close by the cot,
Dr Fallon (26:05)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (26:17)
you may, if you have a baby that likes to pull themselves up to standing and is perhaps one of those FOMO babies I mentioned earlier, it's just really motivated to engage and interact, that they're pulling themselves up to standing and then they are just so stimulated and so motivated to engage with you that they cannot tolerate you being right there beside them and not interacting with them.
Dr Fallon (26:24)
Mmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (26:46)
and they just get more and more more heightened. You then are finding yourself getting more and more upset and thinking, God, this feels awful not interacting with my baby. Yeah, because your baby is trying to make eye contact with you or your toddler is trying to make eye contact with you. And it might be saying, mum, mum, mum, or dad, dad, dad. And it may be in that instant we have to think about, well, even though we would feel better being in their sight.
Dr Fallon (26:46)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (27:17)
actually your FOMO baby might be able to let go that cognitive de -arousal, we need to let go to go to sleep. They might find that easier to let go if you're not right there in front of them. And it might be better to go maybe just slightly around the corner or behind.
Dr Fallon (27:27)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (27:38)
some furniture where they can't see you if you want to stay in the room, or maybe it's better if you go out of the room, for example, depending on what approach you're using. But so you might find that the essentially the child estate, your child is staying very escalated, not calming down in the timeframe that we would be expecting, and just seems to be getting more aggravated by seeing you there than they would if when you actually go away. Sometimes I see families who will say to me,
Dr Fallon (27:46)
Mm.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (28:07)
You know, I had chosen to use one of the really gradual approaches where I'm patting my child off to sleep. And, you know, after 20 minutes, they, they weren't calming down. I needed to go and get a breath of fresh air because I could feel that I was getting upset. So I left the room just to go and have a drink of water and kind of calm myself before coming back, back in for round two to try again. And whilst I was out, she fell asleep or he fell asleep.
Dr Fallon (28:20)
Mmm.
You
Yeah. It's so fascinating, isn't it? That it's like, if they can see a parent there, they go, well, come on, what are you going to do to get me to sleep? Like if you're there, they're thinking, well, I'm not going to, I'm not going to settle myself off to sleep because you're here. Come on, like do something, mom, do something, dad. And they're looking to you for that help, or they're just FOMO babies. They want to interact with you. and they're very, very determined to, and they're just.
Dr Laura (28:51)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (29:01)
too stimulated by you being nearby. And I hear the same thing, Laura, parents will go, often I hear it in the middle of the night, they go, they woke up and they were so upset, like really crying hard. And I thought they're never gonna go back to sleep. I've got to go in there. But the parents busting for the toilet. So they like run to the loo before they go to the baby. And then after two minute toilet trip, they're like, it's gone quiet and the babies have gone back to sleep. So it's so fascinating to consider this.
Dr Laura (29:16)
Yes!
Yes.
Dr Fallon (29:27)
I think we should also consider the flip side of this is that some parents will say, I'm not going to sit near the cot. I don't want to be in there. I'm just going to leave the room. And that's perfectly fine too. Like some of our approaches, you can absolutely leave the room if you feel it works better for you. We always suggest using very, very brief intervals. If you do leave the room and coming back and give lots of reassurance. But some parents will choose that approach and then find that is just not working. It might be that
Dr Laura (29:53)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (29:56)
their child is going to be really comforted by being able to see a parent and their babies actually settle much quicker when they can see parents there, everything's okay. Or if there's separation anxiety, leaving the room is very unlikely to work, everyone's going to be upset. So that's where it's just so important. And this is what makes me really cranky when you see people online saying, you have to do this, put them down and just walk away or, or only do it this way. It's like every baby is different.
Dr Laura (30:03)
Yeah.
yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (30:24)
And every baby deserves to have their own preferences and temperament. know, they deserve to have that respected and have it entered into the equation of how are we going to resolve these sleep problems? Because there's always a way forward. We may as well try and find the way that's likely to be the most comfortable for the parent and for the baby.
Dr Laura (30:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (30:49)
So yeah, I guess, you it's a big one to think about and those are, you know, five things. It's a bit to think through, but I reckon for the majority of parents who are feeling really stuck, the answer lies in one or all of those factors that we've talked through. It's really thinking about each of those. Is this the right approach? Have I applied it really consistently? Have I got the daily rhythm really set up and optimized for my own child's unique sleep needs? there any other medical factors?
to be across or is it just there's some trial and error to find you know the right approach. So Jessica I hope that it's a big meaty discussion we've had but I hope in there you've recognized something that's made you go maybe I could tweak that thing maybe we do need to adjust you know the daily rhythm a bit maybe. If you're really struggling though and you didn't find the answer in there of course being a SOMBAL member you can book in a coaching call
Dr Laura (31:22)
Mm
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (31:42)
with either myself or Laura and we could take a very close look at your sleep diary and really work out exactly what it is in those five factors that we need to be considering for your baby. So if you do need a coaching call, book one in. It just means making much quicker progress. We know sometimes it's just too hard to work through everything alone and a little bit of support makes a really big difference. But well done Jessica and thanks so much for submitting your question. It's a really good one and I think a lot of parents listening.
Dr Laura (31:47)
Mmm.
Mm.
Mm
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (32:11)
we'll find that helpful. And if you are in the trenches, just know that, yeah, you're going to get out, you know, it's not forever. It does end.
Dr Laura (32:13)
Hmm.
Yeah, you will. You will. And just a final thing to add there, Fallon, I know we have, we're probably going over. But when we're thinking about, if you've tried an approach, you're finding it's not working and you need to switch to a different approach, please don't think that you have failed.
Dr Fallon (32:27)
It's alright.
Dr Laura (32:40)
I know we've had some families email us and they started off with a gradual approach. They did that for a week or so, and then they switched to one of the quicker approaches and they have said that they have felt like maybe they have failed on the slower approach. And so they've had to move to an approach that they didn't think that they would have used. But actually what has happened is that in that time where you've used a slower approach, you've
Dr Fallon (32:41)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:08)
gained more understanding of your child's temperament, how they're going to respond to a cot settling approach. They may also have in that time become much, much more comfortable being in their cot or bassinet where they potentially have never fallen asleep before. And so they, with that experience, they over time, which, know, all of those naps and all of the overnight sleep, they've experienced actually this is an all right place to go to sleep.
Dr Fallon (33:24)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:37)
And then they are at that point ready for you to start to use more hands -off approaches. And you yourself may also feel that you're more ready to do it because your child is so much further along than they were when you started. yeah.
Dr Fallon (33:47)
Mmm.
Absolutely. I'm so glad you've mentioned that Laura. It's so important that it's not, it's never failing. It's just learning. You're just learning more about what works and what doesn't work. And that that's moving you towards that end goal. Yeah, excellent. Well, we've got some awesome parent questions that came in this week, Laura, that I'm really excited to dig into. And I wanted to start with Casey, who has a two year old.
Dr Laura (34:11)
Mm
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (34:24)
who is waking overnight and crying uncontrollably until they go in to pick her up. And it's really interesting because Casey says she used to self settle and sleep through the night, but recently developed some anxiety. She sleeps in a cot and Casey plans to use the advanced accelerated approach to settle her from a spare bed that's set up right beside the cot.
Dr Laura (34:28)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (34:46)
Casey says she's averaging just over 10 hours of sleep per 24 hours, but until recently, this was closer to 13 hours. So first up, Casey wonders if it's normal for sleep requirements to drop this fast.
Dr Laura (34:55)
Mm
Hmm. Yeah, it can be Casey. Some children have a quite a sudden drop in sleep needs and other there's a more gradual decline in sleep needs. What I'd always be thinking about in this kind of situation is just considering how she's going during the day, what's her mood like, how she functioning? Is she mostly happy and settled during her times awake?
Is she able to engage with you, make eye contact? Is she still seeming to be learning new things and progressing well? And if she is, it's very likely that she's meeting her sleep needs and she's getting the sleep that she needs.
Dr Fallon (35:46)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (35:48)
If not, then we have to think about something else. you about to jump in there, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (35:55)
Yeah, I was just thinking, you know, sometimes, sometimes they drop a day nap. So they drop a couple of hours of sleep and they're just like, I'm fine. I don't need it. I'm all good. So there is that sudden drop in sleep needs. I was just thinking about the anxiety component. It's possible that she's waking up really upset. I'm guessing it's separation anxiety. She's waking up set. Mama, dad aren't there. and
Dr Laura (36:11)
you
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:19)
It could be the case that once we help her reestablish self settling skills, obviously with lots of support, I love that Casey's picked that advanced accelerated approach and to stay in the room overnight. Once she redevelops those self settling skills and isn't so anxious, it might be that she sleeps through the night again and then that that average kind of comes back up. So if she is moody during the day and you feel like she's really tired, working on those skills might actually be the key rather than adding in day sleep, just improving them.
Dr Laura (36:36)
Hmm. Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:48)
quality of the nights might mean that yeah, that mood improves. Anyway, I've gone down a bit of a tangent there, I think.
Dr Laura (36:49)
Hmm.
No, no, no, I think that's good. So if she is moody during the day, it would be thinking about, well, let's work on supporting her to go to sleep independently in her cot like she used to be able to to improve the quality of the sleep that she's having overnight. I think, like you were just saying there, Fallon, that sleeping in the room with her overnight is a really good choice to have made.
Dr Fallon (37:13)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (37:27)
Because when Casey's baby or toddler rather comes up into light sleep and sees that mum or dad is still there in the room with her, then she's less likely to have that anxious response where she goes, they were with me when I went to sleep and now they're not. I've got separation anxiety. This doesn't feel nice. A big shot of adrenaline. And then taking that time to get back down to calm levels in order to go back to sleep. Doing that multiple times a night.
Dr Fallon (37:39)
Mmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (37:56)
And even just once a night, if any of us, know, as adults, if there was a sudden loud bang or something that frightened us in the middle of the night, we're going to be telling our friends about it the next day. had a terrible night's sleep last night. The shelf fell down in the bathroom, scared the life out of me, took me half an hour to get back to sleep. So with thinking about that with a child who has separation anxiety, they're waking up having a big fright. So even if she's going back to sleep relatively quickly, there's still
Dr Fallon (37:57)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (38:26)
it's just not a nice thing to experience the quality of her sleep will be impacted. And so once you're working on that self settling, the quality of the sleep should improve. She's not having that fright each time she comes up until I sleep and sees that you're not there because you will be there. And that's going to help her start to regain confidence as well in her bed.
Dr Fallon (38:30)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yes, absolutely. And you've beautifully answered Casey's next question, Laura, which was, you know, she was wondering, should we be there the whole night to help her with that adjustment? Or are we going to create a bad habit where she expects them to be in the room? And I would say, forget about the habit of you being in the room. She's frightened. She's anxious. So let's just be there because you'll find it if you sleep in there for probably only a week, usually it's just a week. Sometimes it's two.
Dr Laura (38:52)
okay.
yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (39:17)
when they wake up and see you still there, you can imagine that over the course of a few nights, they're not anxious about falling asleep. They know they're not going to wake up and be alone. They just start to trust that you are there. They let go of some of that anxiety. And then once they're feeling a little bit more confident and settled, it should probably start to sleep a bit better overnight too. It kind of opens the door to then take some steps to gradually reduce your presence. And excuse me, I think that is absolutely the way to go when it comes to separation anxiety. We can't.
Dr Laura (39:27)
Mm
Mm.
Dr Fallon (39:46)
We can't rush it too much. Casey also wanted to know, you know, should it be that her husband and her alternate each night or should it be one parent to help the whole time with the adjustment? And I find this really interesting Laura, cause I don't think there's clear research on this at all. And I know for some families, look, often I'll say, okay, well, if they're just wanting mum, then mum should just be there all night because that's who they've got this separation anxiety from.
Dr Laura (39:47)
No.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (40:14)
And maybe that's going to mean that, you know, quicker progress because mum's just always there. But sometimes mum's exhausted and absolutely just done. And it's, we're better off just sending dad in to do the whole thing. It's one goodbye to mum at the start of the night and then dad's there through the night. So I almost feel like it just depends on the individual circumstances. I'd probably do one or the other rather than chopping and changing all the time. But what are your thoughts, Laura? What would you say?
Dr Laura (40:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, no, I would say exactly the same Fallon, that it may be easier to pick the parent for whom the child is having the anxiety around when that parent leaves and just stick with that parent doing, taking the lead on the settling. But yeah, often that parent is shattered. So we also just have to weigh that up.
Dr Fallon (40:58)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yep.
Dr Laura (41:06)
You know you're not going to do any damage Casey if it is the if your child does have separation anxiety linked to you and you're exhausted it is okay for your husband to do it you're not doing you're not going to be causing her to have any greater anxiety when it's her dad with her overnight and you need to protect yourself. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (41:29)
Yeah, absolutely. And eventually everything will be going really well. She'll be self settling again with you in the room. And that's where we often say start to use the parental fading approach from Sombelle. It's a great one for just getting them very gradually used to not having you there all the time when they're falling asleep. So if I think about that one, Laura, the next question from Casey is a brilliant one, one that we often talk about.
Dr Laura (41:47)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (41:54)
She says, how do we deal with sleep at daycare when they're firm on the no wake policy? She says the other week they let her sleep for three hours and it was hell on earth. and I just think this is, we're seeing this all the time. Child care centers are saying, well, if they're tired, we let them sleep. Why wouldn't we? Not understanding that when they let the child sleep for a long time, the nights are terrible. And then they wake up.
Dr Laura (42:04)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (42:23)
cranky and tired from a terrible night, looking like they need a day nap. And it just perpetuates this cycle. And it's the parents who are with the child overnight, who have to have these very broken nights. It is really hard to make daycare understand, I find. haven't found many, there are some daycare centers that come to the table and go, okay, you know, we're on board with this. But increasingly they're digging their heels in. It's, it's tough.
Dr Laura (42:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm
Yeah, yeah, I think we will be doing a podcast episode in the future where we dig into this a little bit more Fallon, but in terms of what Casey can do at the moment. First of all, of course, trying to explain or explaining to the educators what happens when your two year old
does nap for three hours. I mean, that's an incredibly long time for a two year old to be napping for. I wouldn't know too many two year olds that actually need to have such an enormous nap. So first of all, be explaining to them, know, she's up X number of times a night after having a three hour day nap and see if they will at least
Dr Fallon (43:15)
It's a lot of day sleep.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (43:37)
to reducing it to two hours or an hour and a half, whatever she's normally having at home. not normally napping at all.
Dr Fallon (43:43)
Hmm. Well, she's not, normally napping at all at home anymore. So no wonder her nights are terrible because her circadian rhythm is not expecting any day nap, but it's sometimes having three hours at daycare. poor thing.
Dr Laura (43:52)
yeah.
my goodness. Yeah, that's that is I can imagine that it is hell on earth Casey for the nachis. So look, if they the daycare centre is sticking really rigidly to the no wake policy, have a think about is there is it possible that you can take a week off daycare so you can try to help your two year old have a whole week without having any day naps?
Dr Fallon (44:02)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (44:24)
and try to reset her circadian rhythm. If that isn't a possibility, think about whether you and your partner can do early pickups, you know, thinking about what your work days look like so that perhaps she only goes for half days to daycare for a week or so and you and your partner try and work out fitting your work hours in somehow just to stop.
Dr Fallon (44:27)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (44:53)
that three hour nap. Or if all else fails, then when you know that she's had that really long day nap, just being proactive and going, okay, when she's had three hours day nap, good, her bedtime is I don't know what her sleep need is, but her bedtime might be nine, 10 o 'clock at night that night. I mean, for three hours, we have to just say, well, that's three hours off the nighttime sleep.
Dr Fallon (44:55)
Hmm.
Mmm, yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (45:20)
and then try and stick with a set wake up time in the morning.
Dr Fallon (45:21)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's really good advice. Casey also had a question about dressing her daughter for sleep. But just so that we get time to get through the other questions, I'm to say Casey, have a look through the what's it called the sleep environment chapter, because it will give you lots of guidance around dressing her for sleep definitely wouldn't help to make sure she's rubbed up nice and warm in case you know that that is playing into things. We also had Kimberly send in a question. Do you want to read that one out Laura?
Dr Laura (45:48)
Hmm.
Yeah, so Kimberly has a 14 month old who's on the bottom percentile for weight and who's on a downward projection. She says this has made her worry about trying to drop night feeds. Kimberly describes a really great daily rhythm she follows for her daughter and explains that her daughter goes to daycare three days a week and arrives home 7 .30pm. So Kimberly says that
My daughter feeds to sleep mostly on daycare days after getting dropped home and asked what's the best way to stop this so that I can work on cot settling. Yeah, should we answer that first?
Dr Fallon (46:31)
Hmm. Good question. Yeah. First of all, I would say Kimberly, if weight gain has been a big problem for your toddler, I'm guessing you're probably working with a pediatrician or maybe a health nurse, whoever you're working with there, ask them if they think she's ready to drop the night feeds, because that will give you some confidence. Chances are they'll say yes, because when she drops night feeds, she'll be more hungry in the daytime and she'll just take more calories during the daytime.
But always a good idea to check in with your pediatrician or whoever's helping you manage those weight gain difficulties. That'll help give you some confidence in regards to the night feeds. I would say it's a big problem for a lot of families. like, how do I start cot settling? They always fall asleep on that feed at bedtime. Try and bring that feed earlier, as early as you can. She's getting home from...
Dr Laura (47:09)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (47:24)
daycare at 7 .30pm. It might be that that's the first thing you do when she gets home. And then you do, you know, a quick bath, pajama change, you know, bedtime routine and into bed. So often it's just changing where it sits in that bedtime wind down. She might still fall asleep and you'll wake her up to get ready for bed. That's fine. You'll be putting her down awake in her cot and then you can try out whatever approach you want to use for cot settling.
Dr Laura (47:37)
Mm -hmm.
Mm
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (47:49)
Yeah, that's a good way to do it. Sometimes feeding in a really noisy, distracting environment can really help as well. Could be something to play with.
Dr Laura (47:55)
Yes. Kimberly's next question is overnight she wakes two to three times normally only for five to ten minutes for a quick feed but the second or third wake I'm normally exhausted and often end up co -sleeping any tips to be able to stop the co -sleeping and get her back in the cot?
Dr Fallon (48:15)
Definitely. So I'll be thinking about those five factors potentially. I'd be thinking is the daily rhythm working well enough? If sleep pressure is really low towards morning, maybe there's something we need to tweak a little bit to make sure sleep pressure stays a bit higher towards morning. I would be thinking.
Dr Laura (48:27)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (48:34)
really of just making a clean stop to the co -sleeping. think that's the easiest way to do it is to just not do it. And it means you're to have a few really tricky nights where she's going to be cranky that you're not doing this thing that she's expecting in the early hours of the morning. But easier to make one change that you just stick to and just get it over and done with. And then for those few tricky days, building supports around you. If you've got a partner, they should be doing a lot of that resettling, especially if you're breastfeeding her.
Dr Laura (48:51)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (49:02)
get the non -feeding parent to be going in and doing a lot of the settling. It might just be having some supports around you for a few days while she gets used to not coming into your bed again. Yeah, yeah, I think that's where I'd start. And lastly, we just had a question from, several questions from Lauren. Lauren has a three and a half month old who has a sleep need of around about 11 hours. So towards the lower end of things.
Dr Laura (49:12)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (49:28)
He's a catnapper and usually has four short sleeps per day with daytime sleep of about two hours total Lauren says despite making sure he doesn't overdo the daytime sleep We're still having difficulties with frequent night wakings every 45 to 90 minutes He has never slept more than two hours overnight and after three months of this Lauren says she is exhausted poor thing
Dr Laura (49:35)
Mm
Dr Fallon (49:53)
Even when the last nap of the day ends three hours before bedtime, he still tends to wake up after 20 minutes as if it's a nap rather than the start of the night. His night sleep window is between about 7 .30 p and 7 a And Lauren says she's aware this is really long amount of time, but she's struggling to keep him awake to make the bedtime a bit later. Lauren wonders, is this a problem with sleep pressure or is it more to do with him?
Dr Laura (50:02)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (50:20)
having sleep onset associations. So he tends to feed to sleep on every waking overnight. He does daytime naps in the car or the pram and is cuddled to sleep at bedtime. So there's a bit to unpack there. It sounds really tough. What are your first thoughts Laura?
Dr Laura (50:35)
Yeah, Lauren, well, congratulations on becoming a mum. So your baby is really still a little baby. His circadian rhythm is only just maturing. Remember, it's after about three months that the circadian rhythm system matures. So you are coming out of that really
tricky phase of the very little baby phase. So one of the things to keep in mind is that there's no need to be super rigid about the timing just yet because his circadian rhythm is still, you know, just maturing now. But it's really great having said that, it's really great that you are making sure that he isn't overdoing the daytime sleep.
Dr Fallon (51:21)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (51:31)
and you're recognizing that he does prefer short sleeps and he's having four of those each day. I don't think that we need to be doing a great deal around bedtime and wake up just yet because he is still so little. I think probably I'd be thinking about prioritizing helping him settle in the cot rather than being really rigid about the timing.
Dr Fallon (52:00)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (52:01)
just yet because I think it sounds like you're giving him it's not overdoing the sleep opportunity. But we don't want to be you know, too tight with such little babies. And it sounds like he's probably just, you know, developed a strong preference for being held to sleep, he likes to be cuddled to sleep at bedtime. And that is lovely in those first few months as well. So hopefully you've been able to enjoy those cuddles.
Dr Fallon (52:13)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a real tipping point, isn't it? Sort of around three, three and a half months. Their circadian rhythm is changing a lot. So often the day and night is starting to become a little bit more predictable. So lowering your baby might be right in that phase of just things starting to kind of fall into a pattern. So making sure he's not overdoing day sleep is great because it's going to help maintain that pattern.
But he's also at that point where they go, there's different ways of falling asleep. And I actually really love it when I'm fed to sleep. So often they say, I'll say to families, focus a little more strongly on how they fall asleep because often once they, you know, say, for example, if you decide you're going to pat him off to sleep for every set or, know, particularly at nighttime, the day naps on the go are completely fine. But if you're going to do cot settling overnight,
there's a really good chance after a couple of nights, he'll learn how to link sleep cycles and he'll start to have some longer stretches of sleep. And then he'll manage a bit better in the day on those naps. And it just often, it's the little push that gets that progress happening. So I would say focus more on the cot settling and then you can kind of see where the cards land. And if you're finding, okay, still starting the night with this 20 minute nap, then I'd be going, well, yeah, maybe sleep pressure is part of the
Dr Laura (53:35)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (53:47)
problem here and we can start to tighten up that daily rhythm a little bit. And look, I would say Lauren, that that sleep average 11 hours is reasonably low for a baby his age. It doesn't mean there's anything to worry about. But it can just be a little bit more challenging getting good sleep established in those babies. So it might be that booking a coaching call is a really good option. So we can just have a look at that sleep diary and have a real think about how we might structure that day. But you know, see how you go, you might
Dr Laura (53:51)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (54:14)
fun things really come together and it's not needed. But definitely if you've tried a few things and you're feeling like you're really struggling, that could be a really good option. But well done, Lauren. It is really hard and you've got a few months of poor sleep under your belt. It's tricky, but it sounds like you're thinking about all the right things.
Dr Laura (54:18)
Mm
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (54:35)
Excellent. So we're just about going to wrap up this episode, but we just want to say we had a lovely update come in from Sammy whose baby was having false starts. After listening to our response in last week's podcast, Sammy made some changes, including doing 30 minutes less day sleep. And they've written in to say that it's made such a big difference, that it's really changed their relationship with sleep and how the six month old has been sleeping. Apparently now they're sleeping beautifully.
Dr Laura (55:04)
so good. Yeah, yeah, well done.
Dr Fallon (55:05)
Love hearing updates like that. So well done, Sammy. It's fantastic. Yeah. So just in closing, I just want to say that if you are in the trenches with sleep and you've listened through this episode, you've heard those five factors and you're thinking that's great, but what do I do next? If you really need some support, we highly recommend Sombelle We port everything we learn from the thousands of parents and families we see in clinics.
It all gets poured into Sombelle and we're constantly updating it to make sure families can access the absolute best approaches that are supportive, nurturing, they're all safe for infant mental health. And they really do give you that flexibility to plan out an approach that feels like a really good fit for you and one that you can stick to, which is what I love most about it actually, just that parents can really tailor it and make decisions that really fit their family.
Dr Laura (55:52)
Mm
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (56:02)
As a Sombelle member, you have fast tracked access to our sleep clinic. So if you hit hurdles, you can see us via coaching calls. And of course, members can submit questions to the podcast as well. So if that's some support that you feel would really benefit you, go and check out our website, learn a bit more about the Sombelle programs, and you can make a call on whether it's the right fit for you and your family. We love getting new members. We've had an absolute, I think we broke a record this last week. So.
Dr Laura (56:28)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (56:29)
So yeah, big welcome to everybody who has just joined us. We are so excited to have you here and can't wait to hear what questions you ask as well. I also want to thank all the families who submitted, yeah, their beautiful feedback. think every day, every day we get at least one email from parents saying, thank you so much. You saved our lives. my goodness. And it's just, thank you. I can't tell you the difference it makes to us. It's wonderful.
Dr Laura (56:49)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (56:57)
And I also want to thank these people who have left us beautiful reviews on Google. So a bit of a shout out to Fiona, Tanya, Michelle, Alice, Jess, Anna, HB, Lauren, Charlotte, and Ruth. We love you. Thank you so much. Absolutely amazing people. And just finally, we know a lot of health professionals listening to us for help with their children's sleep.
Dr Laura (57:10)
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (57:21)
If any of you would be so kind as to provide us with a video review, it would be just so fantastic and helpful. Just two minutes, you know, turn the phone towards you, explain what your experiences were like with Sombelle It's really, really helpful for us and really helpful when it's coming from health professionals. We know that families really like to read experiences from parents who have some knowledge in, you child development and health and wellbeing.
So if you are able to do a video review, health professional or not, it's incredibly helpful for us. You can always send that through to sombell at infant sleep .com .au. So that's about it for the week. We've got some great episodes planned out coming up. We're gonna talk more about childcare. Laura, we've got to talk more about this post that we did talking about sharing the overnight wakes and it went absolutely mental.
Dr Laura (58:14)
Yes, yes.
Dr Fallon (58:15)
It's been the most well received post I think we've ever, ever done. So we've got to do a bit of an episode on that. think, cause it definitely touched a nerve with some people and resonated hard with others. All right. Have a great week everyone.
Dr Laura (58:21)
Definitely. Yeah. Yes.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
