Dr Fallon (00:02)
Are sleep associations real? Data from thousands of babies, children and adults concludes that they absolutely are. So why has there been a recent increase in anti-sleep association sentiment on social media? Sleep associations are the things we need present in order to fall asleep and these tend to gradually shift across the lifespan.
In today's episode, we're going to unpack the research on sleep associations. And we're also going to talk about how you can help your little one adjust to the upcoming daylight savings time changes. Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things sleep and settling during the first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with Dr. Laura. How are you going, Laura?
Dr Laura (00:58)
I'm good thanks, Fallon. How are you?
Dr Fallon (01:00)
Yeah, really good. You're about to set off on a little trip away. It's going to be so nice. School holidays. Love it.
Dr Laura (01:06)
Yes, yeah, really looking forward to it. Just having a few days down at the beach, looking forward to some bracing walks along the, along the water. I don't think it's going to be particularly warm. But yeah, looking forward to blowing away the cobwebs and just having a change of scene.
Dr Fallon (01:15)
Yeah.
amazing. That would be so nice. And are you going to be proactively trying to think ahead in terms of the daylight saving time changes, or are you like me, where you just fly by the seat of your pants and see where the cards land?
Dr Laura (01:39)
Yeah, I absolutely fly by the seat of my pants and so do my kids, So, yeah, we're just going to, yeah, just see where the dust settles and hope for the best.
Dr Fallon (01:46)
Yeah.
Hmm. Yeah. Excellent. I think it gets a bit easier when children are a little older too. I think it can be trickier for parents of babies and toddlers. so yeah, later on in this episode, we figured we'll talk about the daylight savings time changes, at the end of the episode, just because they don't impact everyone. it's really just the East coast of Australia. and we have listeners from everywhere, Laura, we have listeners in Turkey, the Netherlands, Spain.
Dr Laura (02:01)
Definitely.
Hmm.
Yes!
Dr Fallon (02:20)
All around the world, which is amazing. So if, if the daylight savings time changes aren't relevant to you, yeah, we'll do them at the end. can switch off. but you know, this, this sleep associations thing that's currently going down online has me just so equally fascinated and perplexed. think like, just don't really understand, where it has come from, from, but maybe.
Dr Laura (02:29)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yes!
Dr Fallon (02:47)
Do you want to talk us through like, what are some of the common sleep associations? Like we've got ones, sleep associations that depend on a parent. And then we've got the ones that are parent independent. Do want to tell us a bit more about.
Dr Laura (02:54)
Yeah.
Yeah,
Yeah, so first of all, I think I'll start with just explaining adult sleep associations. So we do actually all have sleep associations, like you said in the intro. And so we like to have a particular pillow present often that some of us can have really strong feelings about whether you want a feather pillow or a memory foam pillow. Yeah, me too. I take my own pillow everywhere. Yeah, I'm taking my pillow away with me to the beach this few days. Yeah, I sleep better with that pillow.
Dr Fallon (03:03)
Mmm.
I do. I've got to the same pillow every night.
excellent. Well, why not? If you know you're going to sleep better. Yeah.
Dr Laura (03:27)
And also people like to have a certain type of blanket on them and might prefer to have heavier blankets on them and that's the things that they need to feel comfortable in order to fall off to sleep. And if you wake up in the night and your pillow is fallen off on the floor or you've kicked your sheets off or your blanket off, you might need to get that pillow back under your head or pull the duvet back up on you before you can resume sleeping.
Dr Fallon (03:40)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (03:55)
And that's perfectly normal. The most adults can understand that. Yep. That's the thing that happens for me. and sometimes we'll have things like if you have a, you start to listen to podcasts, for example, as you're falling asleep, you might find that you wake up when the podcast finishes. I'm a bit guilty of that. and
Dr Fallon (03:55)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Mmm. You know, Laura, I used to a very long time ago, I dated a guy and he could only fall asleep with the Simpsons playing on his TV. So if the episode ended, yeah, he would wake up. He'd do that systems check, which we've talked about a bit. He'd come up into light sleep and kind of his body would check, you know, is anything changing my sleep environment? Is everything still okay?
Dr Laura (04:20)
You
my goodness.
Dr Fallon (04:41)
And because the TV had stopped playing The Simpsons, he would wake up and then would have to put it back on to go back to sleep. So yeah, he had a sleep disorder.
Dr Laura (04:50)
I bet you did after that too, Fallon!
Dr Fallon (04:53)
Didn't sleep over there very often.
Dr Laura (04:55)
Anyway, moving on. But yes, so all of those, think just really just to lay the groundwork for listeners that it's very normal for us humans to have sleep associations. And those sleep associations do start to develop from a young age from being a baby. Now we have often spoken about how in the first few months of life,
Dr Fallon (04:59)
Anyway.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (05:25)
Babies don't generally have the cognitive capacity yet to develop really strong preferences and really strong associations. They have very little tummies and they just have to wake frequently day and night for feeds. And they generally are slightly more or a lot more flexible. They can fall asleep.
on mum wake up on dad or wake up in the bassinet and it's neither here nor there. They're waking so frequently anyway because they need those feeds that it's not really a big deal. However, after around about four months of age, which is why people sometimes call it the four month sleep regression, things change. The circadian rhythm system starts to mature, babies start to produce melatonin, they start to be able to sleep for longer stretches and
Dr Fallon (05:50)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (06:16)
Of course, they continue to have overnight wakings, totally normal, just like us as adults have overnight wakings, perfectly normal. We wake up, do a systems check and fall back to sleep as long as everything is there that was there when we fell asleep. Where the problems can emerge for some babies is if the way that they fall asleep relies on a parent doing something.
Dr Fallon (06:25)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (06:42)
And then when they come up into a normal night waking and that thing is no longer there, then like your old bed partner, Fallon, who needed the Simpsons playing, or for me who hasn't played podcasts when I fall asleep, come up into light sleep, it's not playing anymore, need to put it back on in order to go back to sleep. So there are some associations that we have to have more control over in the night than others.
Dr Fallon (06:54)
You
Mmm.
Dr Laura (07:11)
whereas a pillow and a blanket, they're a bit easy to get back. They normally stay put really as adults. And with children, babies and children, that we tend to think about associations that rely on a parent doing something and associations that don't rely on a parent doing something. And so the ones that don't rely on a parent doing something would include white noise, sleeping bag, a dummy, of course,
Dr Fallon (07:17)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (07:38)
until they're old enough to replace the dummy that might be a dependent sleep association. Older children might have a comforter, but parent dependent ones would be being fed to sleep, being held to sleep, cuddled to sleep, bounced to sleep on a football, having mum or dad lying in the cot or the bed with the baby as they go to sleep. And then baby wakes up when they do a natural waking in the night, mum or dad's no longer there. They're not feeding anymore. And they go, can't go back to sleep.
Dr Fallon (07:43)
Hmm. Yep.
Mmm.
Yes. Yep. I need that help again. And it's really important to be clear that we're not demonizing parent dependent sleep associations for babies. we're a more scientific than that. We're not here to have bigger opinions and emotional views on things. It's just really a case of looking at the individual baby. So the majority of babies. So what we know from the science is the majority of babies who have parent
Dr Laura (08:15)
No.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:35)
dependent sleep associations where they need a parent to do something for them to fall asleep. The majority will at around that four or five month mark start to wake up a lot and need that same support to get back to sleep. So that's where so many families will say, they were a great sleeper. They were sleeping beautiful long stretches. And then at four and a half months or five months, it absolutely fell apart. I thought I'd feed them to sleep forever because it was so easy. And like, why wouldn't you just do that?
Dr Laura (08:52)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (09:05)
But then they started waking up seven times per night wanting to feed for, you know, two minutes to get back to sleep again. so that's where there's often a different tipping point, but it's different for every family. Some families will go, yeah, I feed them seven times per night. Who cares? And that's totally fine. Like if that's fine for you, go for it. but for others, obviously that's really not fine. And there will be some babies and toddlers who have helped to fall asleep from a parent, but
Dr Laura (09:10)
Yes.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:32)
when they come up and do their systems check, they couldn't care less that the parents not there anymore. I'm actually thinking about one of my kids, he's a really deep sleeper and he could kick his doona off on the floor and I think he'd probably just sleep till morning. He'd be cold, but he wouldn't even care. Like, whereas my other one would be like, can you come in and just make sure my blanket is just perfectly tucked and I need two kisses and then I'd like you to say this good night phrase. Like they've got all these.
Dr Laura (09:36)
Yes.
Yeah.
Just so. Yes.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (09:59)
you know, requirements and you know, they'll wake up and call out if something's a bit off. It does really depend on the individual child. So yeah, in terms of the science, I, there's a paper that I love and I refer to it all the time. So if anyone's listening and he loves to read a bit of the science, go and look at the paper by Avi Sade. It was published in 2010 and it's called Parenting an Infant's Sleep. It was published in Sleep Medicine Reviews, really.
Dr Laura (10:03)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (10:28)
excellent journal for anything to do with sleep. Go and have a bit of a read and in that paper, and there's been many, studies of literally thousands of babies, you know, this paper talks about how we consistently see that babies and toddlers or humans in general who don't need a lot of help from someone else to fall asleep have longer stretches of nighttime sleep and far fewer sleep difficulties.
it's a really strong association that we just see time and time again. So from a science point of view, there's no debate here on whether sleep associations are real or not. I don't know why social media just seems to be this hot bed for people just to say unhinged ridiculous things. And of course there'll be a few people who jump on board with it and they're like, yeah, you know, we're all behind this crazy view.
Dr Laura (11:03)
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (11:20)
But the scientific evidence behind this is undeniable. And I think you can each go, you know, do your own little experiment tonight and even just try and sleep with, you know, a blanket instead of a doona. And you'll find it takes you, you'll fall asleep. It's similar, but it will take you longer to fall asleep. Cause it feels different. you know,
Dr Laura (11:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, use a pillow that you don't particularly like that's not your pillow.
Dr Fallon (11:41)
Yeah, try to go to sleep with the Simpsons on. See how you go. Or try to fall asleep with your light turned on in your bedroom. you know, like it's just sleep associations are real. think we can, I'd like to say we could just put all of that to bed, but I'm sure that all this misinformation will keep, you know, churning around.
Dr Laura (11:48)
Yes.
And look, Fallon, think that sometimes what happens, well, not sometimes, I reckon often what happens is that somebody has had experience of parenting a baby and their baby fed to sleep, maybe woke up once or twice a night to have a feed overnight. And then other than that, sleeps in long stretches. And that anecdotal experience is then used to be, you know, is applied to every baby.
Dr Fallon (12:15)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (12:28)
because this one person had an experience that their baby didn't mind falling to sleep in that way, was still able to do long stretches. But that's anecdote, that's not evidence. And that's not data that's been collected in a particular way and been analyzed to control for lots of other variables, which is what you and I spent years doing, isn't it, Fallon? So...
Dr Fallon (12:28)
Yes.
Yes.
Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (12:54)
Yet if you're following somebody online who has an experience of one or two children who had a parent dependent sleep association and still were great sleepers, that's just their experience. But the evidence is of thousands and thousands of babies. And we know that although some can sleep well, even with parent dependent sleep associations, the majority may have more.
Dr Fallon (13:01)
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (13:23)
wakes and sleep for shorter stretches overnight if they do have those parent dependent sleep associations. And if you want to continue using those associations for your baby, that's absolutely fine. We really don't mind. It's none of our business. They're never really not listening. But if you do, if you are looking at why does your baby wait so frequently overnight, one of the things to be looking at is how are they falling asleep? Do you think that they have an association that's dependent on you? And if so,
Dr Fallon (13:29)
Yeah.
I bet those people aren't even listening to the podcast anyway.
Dr Laura (13:52)
It may be that the reason they're waking so often and needing, calling out to you needing help to go back to sleep is because they are reliant on you. And if you want to change that, there are ways that you can do so.
Dr Fallon (14:01)
Yeah, yeah, and you can do it gently and respectfully as well. And I think in a way, sometimes when people are saying such unhinged things that just don't match with the science, maybe in a weird way, it's a blessing because it makes it really easy to spot people who...
don't, who aren't sleep scientists, you know, and who aren't across the science. So if someone is saying something like that, know, sleep associations aren't real, you know, it's not a thing. For me, that's just an immediate unfollow. You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not going to trust you on any of the advice you're giving when you're saying something that is just so far off base. So yeah, hopefully that helps parents. And we'll try and always unpick these things when we see these, you know, kind of wild claims.
Dr Laura (14:31)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:47)
We'll try and bring them to the podcast so you know to look out for it and can be aware that it's out there. We have some great parent questions this week, Laura. There's a lot of them. And actually I want to thank the parents. A lot of parents I could tell really took the time to keep their questions really succinct. Like I could see that that worked hard to like keep it really short. So thank you so much. It's brilliant and it means we can get through more of them. So let's power through a few. Maybe we'll start with Annie.
Dr Laura (14:50)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (15:17)
Annie has an 11 week old baby and has joined the four to 12 month program. She has a 14 hour sleep need, has four or five contact naps a day, totaling about four hours of day sleep and she's held or fed to sleep. So this is a baby who's probably not quite forming habits yet for how they, they fall asleep. So being held or fed to sleep might not be a problem for a baby this, this young, just going back to what we're talking about earlier.
Dr Laura (15:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (15:46)
Annie says, at night she transfers to her bassinet and does an initial stretch of between two and five hours. She then wakes every 50 minutes until they get up at 830 AM. that's every sleep cycle. That is really tough. She's always slept happily in her bassinet overnight after being transferred, but has now started to wake up during the transfer as well.
Dr Laura (15:59)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (16:11)
And they've begun on step one of the slow fade approach. Their baby's waking up all smiles and is generally very happy, has had mild reflux, but it has been improving. So Annie asks, are these morning wakings out of habit now? And would teaching her cot settling help with this? Is she too young at 11 weeks old to be taught how to cot settle using the slow fade approach? Or do I need to wait until her melatonin kicks in?
about 12 weeks? Or is the problem that she's having difficulties connecting her sleep cycles? This is such a great question to start with because it really speaks to that tricky point where some of them do develop preferences earlier than we expect. It could be part of the problem. But Laura, what do you think?
Dr Laura (16:41)
Mmm.
Yes.
Yeah. Yes. Well, Annie, congratulations on your 11 week old baby. So you have bought the program that's for slightly older babies. But I think it's a really good idea to kind of get yourself prepared and have a read through what settling approaches you might use should you decide that you need to. I think the slow fade approach is the appropriate way.
Dr Fallon (17:20)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (17:25)
to go with such a little baby, just introducing some sleep associations with the patting and humming. And then when you feel a bit ready to move on to the second step, it's absolutely appropriate to be able to pop your baby down just for a short period of time in the cot whilst using those associations that you've layered in and then pick her up again if she's getting upset.
and just go through as slowly as you need to with such a little baby. And I would be wondering if that 8.30 wake up might just be, I know that's what it, perhaps what you would like as parents, but it might just be a little bit too late in the day. So I'd also just be having a little think about the daily schedule.
Dr Fallon (17:55)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (18:19)
If sounds like your baby's having an appropriate number of naps for an 11 week old. babies do tend to have short and more naps when they're younger. But four hours a day, that's leaving about 10 hours overnight. And if you're not planning on starting the day until 8.30 in the morning, then that means that bedtime wouldn't really be until around 10.
Dr Fallon (18:30)
Mm.
Dr Laura (18:46)
which is quite late. So I suspect that there may be a little bit of a sleep pressure issue coming in because your baby is doing a longer stretch at the start of the night, which is good. That's what we want her to be doing. It shows us her circadian rhythm is developing as we would expect. But you are starting to find that those wakes, she's doing a stretch of maybe two hours, sometimes up to five hours. And then the wakes are getting more frequent until morning.
Dr Fallon (18:46)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (19:12)
I think perhaps just thinking about moving wake up a bit earlier than 8.30, just adjusting your expectations around what an appropriate wake up time for a little baby is probably worth considering. What else would you suggest, Valen?
Dr Fallon (19:25)
Mmm.
Yeah, I think it's such a good question. And I always find working with families of babies this age, it's really tricky because these babies are, still little, you know, they're on the cusp of this really big change in their sleep. I have seen, this is just anecdotal too, this is not from research, so I'm just gonna be really clear on that. But I see so many families who say that even in their really little babies, so some families have a six week old and they're like,
Dr Laura (19:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (19:55)
various reasons which I won't go into. They really need their babies to settle in a cot or a bassinet. They can't be holding them all the time. And so they work on settling them in the cot and they're like, my God, sleep got so much better. So there's definitely anecdotal evidence there that some babies seem to do better when they fall asleep in the cot, even when they apparently are too young to have a preference or a habit.
Dr Laura (20:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (20:19)
So in your case, Annie, it might be worth a try doing some cot saling, obviously with lots of support. We're not talking about, you know, putting them in the cot and walking away for 20 minutes or something like that. Give them lots of support to make that adjustment and see, cause it might actually be really helpful. And you might find that they are better able to link those sleep cycles. Cause maybe your baby is coming up into light sleep and kind of going, what, you know, what happened? Where am I? And then wanting that support to get back to sleep. Whereas if they fall asleep in the cot.
Dr Laura (20:35)
Mm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (20:48)
they don't get that sort of surprise. They're more likely to just drift back off to sleep again. So yeah, definitely worth having a little experiment, Annie. Yeah, and good luck. Let us know how you go.
Dr Laura (20:57)
Mmm.
Then we had Sophie email us. Sophie has a little girl who's six and half months old and she's currently dropping her final overnight feed. So Sophie says that that feed used to be at around 4am but now her baby is making it until around 5.30. Sophie describes that her baby is happy to wait for the feed. She's just awake from 5.30.
Dr Fallon (21:25)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (21:28)
And she's always been tricky to resettle in the early mornings and often needs contact sleep if she wakes then. So Sophie's question is, what is the best way to deal with early wake ups in the morning? We she says we're transitioning to two naps and the mornings are getting lighter. So I know that there are some obvious causes to work through in the long term. But at 530am, is it best to try what
ever necessary to get her back to sleep until six to maintain her circadian rhythm or just to get up early.
Dr Fallon (22:03)
I love this question. Excuse me. For starters, I would say, no, don't do whatever to get her back to sleep so that she's not getting up so early. So often if we, you know, hold them to sleep or feed them off to sleep or co-sleep for the last hour of the night to get a longer sleep in for everyone.
Dr Laura (22:04)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (22:27)
It just unravels. just see it time and time again. I suppose there's probably some parents that works for, but not many. Typically they just start waking earlier and earlier because they love having this extra bit of cuddly time. Again, if it works for you, that's totally fine. But I would say I'd probably steer clear of it. If you are on the Eastern seaboard of Australia, then daylight savings is going to be a blessing for you, Sophie, because that 5.30 wake up will just become a 6.30 wake up.
Dr Laura (22:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
You
Dr Fallon (22:56)
And you know, you're done, you're sorted. you mentioned that you're transitioning to two naps. I would say, yeah, drop that third nap. Your baby's six and a half months old. Just get rid of it. Cause that could be why they're waking up so early. as well. so what's the best way to deal with the early wakeups? If they're pretty happy in their cot and it's pretty close to the wake up time you're wanting.
Dr Laura (22:56)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (23:18)
wait until that wake up time and then go in and give them a big dose of bright light, lots of energetic play to show the circadian rhythm that that's when they should be waking. If it's really persisting, I think just have a look at their unique sleep needs and maybe it's a case of, you know, cutting a day nap or shuffling bedtime a little bit later. Might be some tweaks needed there. Would you add anything to that, Laura?
Dr Laura (23:24)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Yeah, no, I think there's a great suggestions. I've worked with a few families the last week in the Northern Territory, who are really happy with 5am wakes. And I've written some plans that are 5am wakes, which just seems so outrageous when you're down in the the dark states.
Dr Fallon (23:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, I find that too. The families in far Northern Queensland are like, yeah, we get up at five and we all go for a family walk. I'm like, okay, you do you. I'll be in bed. Yeah. And it's so true. Like every family is different. But I would say most prefer, you know, the wake up to start with a six or a seven.
Dr Laura (24:08)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Now Maria, who wrote in with some questions, she will be sympathising with you, Sophie. Maria says, what do we do for early wake up times for a four month old? At the moment, Bob is waking up at 5am for a feed and then think it's wake up time, smiling and playful, which is cute, but exhausting.
Dr Fallon (24:28)
Mmm.
Yeah. So it looks same advice. I think, look at that daily rhythm. I'm crossing my fingers. You're also going to have daylight savings time because that's going to bump everything along an hour, or, know, very quickly and easily. but yeah, I would be adjusting the daily rhythm. Cause if they're smiling and playful, they're done. They've had enough sleep and they're ready to start the day. So, unless you're happy getting up that early, yeah, you'll have to shuffle everything along a little bit.
Dr Laura (24:56)
Yeah.
Yep. That's right. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's probably the same advice for Maria's next question about in terms of shuffling things, because Maria says, what are your tips for when your baby treats bedtime as a nap? For example, Maria's baby will, they'll go through the bedtime routine, her baby will fall asleep, and then she wakes up 30 to 45 minutes later and has difficulties resettling.
Yeah, that's a false start.
Dr Fallon (25:38)
yeah, that's a false start. I would say there's probably too much day sleep happening. Definitely work through that unique sleep needs chapter, Maria, and then look at the daily rhythm chart for, for your baby's sleep needs and have a think about maybe working towards one of those. Cause yeah, a false start like that and difficulty resettling really says, sleep pressure might just be a bit low at the start of the night and they're not able to get into a good deep stretch of sleep. Hmm.
Dr Laura (25:43)
Hmm.
Yeah, so you might need to shuffle bedtime half an hour later, for example, or if you want to keep bedtime the same, drop a nap. Maria's third question relates to her baby having reflux, which has been diagnosed by a pediatrician. Sorry to hear that, Maria. That is hell on earth. I lived that myself. So I know it's just a quick sentence, my baby has reflux, but I know that there's a lot behind that that is
Dr Fallon (26:09)
Yeah, or drop a nap. Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (26:33)
really hard. And Maria's baby can't keep full feeds down during the day and so Maria wonders whether that could be causing the frequent night wakings. So at the moment her baby wakes around 10.30, again at 12, then at 3 and then at 5. Maria does add that she'll be seeing a pediatrician in a couple of weeks but she wonders if we have any tips.
Dr Fallon (26:35)
Yes.
I think it is best to see the pediatrician for advice on that because it's going to depend on your baby's weight gain. So if they are, you know, gaining weight beautifully, then despite the vomiting in the daytime, they're doing fine. and you could work toward, well, what are they four months? and it sounds like around four, three, four night feeds.
Dr Laura (27:01)
Hmm.
Mm.
for
Dr Fallon (27:20)
So if, you know, if everything's going great, your pediatrician will probably say, yeah, you can drop down to one or two night feeds. They should be fine. Yeah. So yeah, look, I think I would just wait and see the pediatrician and see what they say.
Dr Laura (27:26)
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (27:33)
before trying to reduce night feeds, if that's what you're wanting to do. Could be that they're waking up at night because they are hungry, because they're not able to get enough calories in the daytime. So it's a good example of why we always say to families in our programs and in the clinic, if it's to do with feeding and weight gain, have a chat to, you your GP, your pediatrician, a lactation consultant, because it could be impacting their sleep.
Dr Laura (27:40)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, hungry babies won't sleep well. So if your baby is hungry and due to a medical issue, then they will be waking more frequently overnight. And yeah, definitely seek the medical advice. It's not appropriate for us Maria to, to advise on dropping those feeds at this point.
Dr Fallon (28:01)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Hmm. And well done for being proactive Maria too, and getting onto the pediatrician. I love it when I hear families have gone out and sought the support that they're needing. It's great. Good way to be. Monica also emailed in. So we've got a lot of little babies this week, which I love. She says, my daughter is six weeks old and she's getting increasingly fussy with sleep. At the moment, she refuses to go down to sleep in her bassinet during the day or the night.
Dr Laura (28:24)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
off
Dr Fallon (28:47)
This means I have begun co-sleeping, which I would prefer not to do. And even with the co-sleeping, neither of us is sleeping well. Poor Monica. She says, I've worked through the modules for the zero to three month program and I have some questions. So there's a few questions here. I'll read them all out because I think we'll sort of answer them as a group. She says, do I need to wait until she is closer to three months to start working on improving sleep?
Dr Laura (29:07)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:14)
Since she is so young, should I just be entirely following her cues in terms of sleep? So if she wants me to hold her at night, should I do it? Because that's what she needs. Do you have any suggestions for getting us closer to that three month mark and getting some sleep? She says, I have some mental health issues in the past and I know the importance of sleep in preventing an episode. This is such a fantastic question because it really speaks to like having to really hold the parents' wellbeing.
just as equally, you know, in front and center as the babies, you know, you're a unit, you work together, and we have to consider the needs of both. I'm interested to hear what you say, Laura.
Dr Laura (29:46)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
Yes, Monica, my heart goes out to you. Given that you've had mental health issues in the past, I do hope that you have a psychologist or a counsellor that you are connected in with at the moment to help you support you through this. Because actually it can be really helpful even when you've written up a sleep and settling plan to share that with your mental health practitioner, because they can support you through how to...
put it into practice and what your thought processes might be behind the crying, for example, or what it means to make changes to your baby's But that aside, just thinking through your questions, no, you don't have to wait until she's closer to three months to start working on improving her sleep, because you can be looking at things like how much sleep your little baby is getting.
per 24 hours, where she kind of sits in that broad range of sleep needs. she have a really high sleep need, 16 hours, 15 hours, or does she have a lower sleep need, know, 13 hours maybe. And then just having a think about having a look at the chapters on the daily rhythms and then pick one of those that you might just have as a guide for what you.
potentially might be doing at this age. But remembering, of course, that her circadian rhythm system is immature. She will be waking in all likelihood more often overnight than an older baby because, like we've spoken about before, small tummies needs to feed. But that doesn't mean that you have to hold her the entire time, particularly
Dr Fallon (31:39)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:49)
I mean, even if you didn't have some mental health issues, I would be cautioning against feeling like you have to hold your baby 24 seven simply because it's not really sustainable for most families.
Dr Fallon (32:01)
Yes, that's what jumped out at me in this question, Laura, where Monica says, should I just hold her during the night if that's what she needs? And it's that needs word. It's, so, you know, intertwined and it's yeah, it's so loaded. It's not that your baby needs to be held all night. It's that they prefer it. They like it. It's like a nice and close and comforting, but
Dr Laura (32:04)
Mm.
Hmm.
loaded.
Dr Fallon (32:28)
what your baby needs is to be safe. And one of the most dangerous things you can do as a new parent, and I hate going into all this dark stuff, but honestly, we all love our babies and we wanna keep them safe. One of the most dangerous things is to be holding a baby who's asleep and you fall asleep, whether that's on a couch or if they're, you you might be in bed and they're on top of you or something like that. It's really dangerous because you will be so exhausted. You could be in such deep sleep.
that if your baby rolls off you or heaven forbid you slouch forward and smothering your baby, you won't wake up. And when you do eventually wake up, it will be the worst nightmare you ever endure. And it's just so dangerous to be asleep with a baby on you. And it's, can't guarantee that you're going to be awake all night. You just can't, you're exhausted. You're not designed to be able to stay awake all night. So yeah. Yep.
Dr Laura (33:04)
Mm. Yeah.
No.
No, sleep will always prevail. And you will have a micro sleep, you will think that you're awake and you actually will have fallen asleep, you may be in lights, you might be in stage one asleep and you won't even realise. it's your body is going to make sure you get some sleep. And so you cannot ever be 100 % sure that you're going to stay awake. You know, and there's even the studies of
Dr Fallon (33:28)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (33:50)
adults who have insomnia where researchers or sleep study, physicians have looked at their brainwaves whilst they're trying to go to sleep and an adult with insomnia will say, no, I didn't go to sleep at all. But the brainwaves show they were actually in stage one sleep. But they, we don't know it. So yeah, I
Dr Fallon (34:11)
Mmm, yeah we don't know when we're asleep. Mmm.
Dr Laura (34:18)
understand that Monica, of course, you're in love with your baby and you want to ensure that your baby gets all the sleep that they need. But you also need to have some rest and you are not you can't sleep will prevail. So you can't actually control being able to stay awake all the time that you're holding her.
Dr Fallon (34:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, exactly. So I would say a really important need for this family unit. Obviously I haven't met Monica or her baby, but my impression is that it is so important for this baby to be able to fall asleep in their bassinet or cot because that's going to keep them safer. Co-sleeping isn't working. Monica says that herself that neither one of them is sleeping very well. So I agree with you, Laura, have a bit of a think about the daily rhythm.
Dr Laura (34:57)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (35:06)
could be that there's a bit too much day sleep happening and it's making the nights really fragmented. But I think taking into account parent mental health as well, what we know is that when parents do establish some cot settling in their little babies in those first few months, this is research that I did actually. We looked at almost a thousand families and we found that in just a normal community sample of families,
when we taught parents about looking out for sleep cues and what sleep associations are and the benefits of doing some cot settling in those early months, it prevented postnatal depression, which was a stunning finding and totally unexpected. But the group who had that advice compared to a group who didn't get that advice had lower rates of postnatal depression. And I think it was four months and six months of age. So it's so important if you know that your mental health is fragile.
Dr Laura (35:45)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (36:01)
work on some cot settling because then when Monica's baby reaches that four or five month mark and they start to have really strong preferences and habits start to form, they're more likely to go, well, I always settle in my cot. This is my normal and this is now my habit. And then you don't get all the waking up and this horrible tricky patch that some parents with mental health difficulties just cannot get through easily. doing everything you can now to work on cot settling could be a really great preventative measure to take.
Dr Laura (36:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (36:30)
yeah, gosh, it's yeah, every family's different. Really, it really highlights that doesn't it?
Dr Laura (36:34)
Yeah, yeah, it does. So let's move on to Sarah's email. So Sarah again has a really little baby, 13 weeks old. And she says that prior to starting Somme Bell, she was able to independently settle for day naps, but was feeding to sleep at night and waking every two to three hours. After working through Somme Bell, her unique sleep need is on average 14 and a half hours.
Dr Fallon (36:44)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:02)
And Sarah says, I've started her on a daily rhythm with three one and a half hour day naps. Her bedtime is at 9.30 and wake up at 8.30, which allows time for one or two feeds overnight. This is really good, Sarah. So she used to take a 20 to 30 minute power nap two hours before bedtime, but has dropped this recently. And that's often the case with those power naps. If you ever have to use one, they're often just a stepping stone.
Dr Fallon (37:28)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:29)
which is great. Sarah says she's also now stopped feeding to sleep. Well done and just needs about five to 10 minutes of hands-on settling at bedtime. When we started her daily rhythm, she was able to do a six hour stretch before waking up at night. However, this only happened twice and now she wakes every three to four hours overnight. And Sarah says it's been two weeks since we started Sombell. The sleep environment has been set up with no noise, block out blinds and temperature well.
controlled. Good work, Sarah. So we're going to get on to her questions. I think maybe we'll just read out each one at a time, perhaps Fallon. So Sarah's first question is, how do I get that six hour stretch again? Or should I just expect that at this age, the best she can do a night is three to four hour blocks?
Dr Fallon (38:00)
Mmm.
Yeah, yep.
Hmm. I mean, for her age, three to four hour blocks can be quite typical. So it might've just been a bit of a fluke that we got a nice long six hour stretch for a couple of nights. but it'd be worth thinking about, you know, you mentioned giving some hands on support at bedtime. If you are still there when your baby falls asleep, it might be that, you know, the baby's sort of waking up and going, where are you? Get back over here. want some pats and things.
Dr Laura (38:26)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (38:47)
So you could think about maybe trying to gradually reduce your presence around bedtime so that that's not happening. And look, it'll probably just come about with time. She's 13 weeks now, so circadian rhythms developing a lot. And it sounds like you're doing a really good job with the daily rhythm and the settling, Sarah. So hopefully things will just naturally come together.
Dr Laura (38:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, Sarah then says, I currently feed her every time she wakes up at night and she goes back down easily and resettles independently after the first feed, but it gets slightly harder after the second feed. She asks, should I not offer the feed and just try to resettle when she wakes at night?
Dr Fallon (39:25)
there's no clear answer to this one. I wish I could say he's what to do, but she's so little, still 13 weeks. I would say from about four months, if weight gain's fine, aiming for one to two feeds maximum generally is fine and they can manage it fine. but she's just a little way off that. I would just be thinking about, is it a really big feed? Does she really love it? Or is it just like a two minute?
Dr Laura (39:26)
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (39:53)
tiny little snack feed. A snack feed you can probably work to get rid of if you want to. Yeah, sorry, it's not a really clear answer, but I don't think there is one, is there, Laura?
Dr Laura (39:58)
Mmm.
Yeah, no, there isn't. isn't. And it's, you know, she's she is so little. And once it all gets a bit clearer once they're on solids. Yeah. Yeah, she is.
Dr Fallon (40:14)
Yeah. And even just another couple of weeks from now, Sarah's doing everything right. She's got this great daily rhythm and this baby's even self settling after night feeds. It's going back down and putting itself off to sleep. Chances are just with a few weeks time passing, it'll all come together. you're definitely doing things right.
Dr Laura (40:25)
Mmm.
Yeah.
And Sarah's final question is, you have mentioned in the past to avoid chopping and changing and to give baby time to adjust when implementing a new rhythm. Is this a sleep pressure issue? Sorry, if this is a sleep pressure issue, how often should I be reassessing her sleep needs or daily rhythm? How do I balance allowing time for the new change to set in versus adjusting the rhythm to meet her sleep needs? I feel like I should probably
Dr Fallon (40:58)
A brilliant question.
Dr Laura (40:59)
Yeah, it's a good question. feel like I should answer because I'm just firing questions at you, Felen. Yeah, generally, we want to put a new rhythm into place for at least a week to see how a baby adjusts. And if after a week, you're finding that things aren't settling down, then you might need to make a few tweaks.
Dr Fallon (41:03)
Yeah, go for it.
Dr Laura (41:28)
And in terms of reassessing sleep needs, think if you can, just whilst you're working on the rhythm, just carry on logging her sleep the whole time, as long as it's not causing you anxiety, just so that you can see how things are changing. And then you can also see how she's adjusting, because you could have dropped a nap and then found that the length of the stretch of sleep begins to improve.
Dr Fallon (41:40)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (41:56)
If we're just relying on our memory and you're a bit sleep deprived, you might not fully appreciate the changes that have come about, for example.
Dr Fallon (42:05)
Hmm. Yeah, I think that's a really good answer, Laura. yeah, sleep needs to, you know, can drop off really quickly at this age. So keeping a bit of a check on them is a good idea. Lucy also sent in a really lovely email. And it starts with, yeah, just such a lovely review. I thought I'll read it out just quickly. She says, I wanted to say a big heartfelt thank you for your podcast and the Sombel program.
Dr Laura (42:16)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (42:31)
She says, I have a four and a half month old baby boy and you've honestly been the biggest blessing for us and my mental health. Gosh, that makes me so happy. She says, yeah, she says, even though my happy little Bob is a great sleeper, I spent the first few months of my baby's life stressing about his sleep. I felt a lot of pressure from other parents and experts online to have a perfect napper and follow set age based schedules, which never worked for us.
Dr Laura (42:39)
Aww yes!
hehe
Dr Fallon (42:57)
I was told if I wanted my baby to sleep through the night, I had to sleep train at four months and I thought this meant I had to leave him alone to cry. And this just sent me into fits of anxiety and absolutely dreading the four month mark. she says while scrolling through Instagram one day, I saw an add a few of podcasts episode on crying. had to listen and instantly signed up for Sunbell, the best spontaneous purchase ever. I love that.
Dr Laura (43:19)
yeah.
Dr Fallon (43:21)
She says it's been such a great program. My baby brain loves the course format and it's so easy and simple to read. I flew through it and now feel so at peace with my baby's sleep. my gosh. I love these so much. This is why we do it, Laura. that's amazing.
Dr Laura (43:32)
yeah it is. Thank you so much Lucy for that's really lovely to hear that Sunbell had that impact on you.
Dr Fallon (43:41)
Hmm. It literally brings tears to my eyes. I'm such a sook. Thank you, Lucy. Okay, so Lucy says, we're working on establishing my baby's daily rhythm, which has him sleeping very well with only one quick feed through the night. Gee, that's fantastic. He's four and a half months old. She says, since I'm in no hurry, I plan on using the slow fade approach and I've been introducing the lovely new sleep associations with plans to start cot settling soon.
Dr Laura (43:44)
Hahaha!
Mmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (44:11)
I just think self settling would be a good skill for him to have and I'm currently rocking him to sleep. She says, it's not ideal, but I also don't mind it. So that's perfectly fine. She says, however, we have a few big transitions coming up and I'm looking for some advice around navigating these. With rolling on the card soon, it's time to transition to arms out sleeping. And he's currently in their love to dream transition sleeping bags.
Dr Laura (44:20)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (44:36)
She says, he's also getting too big for his bassinet, meaning he needs to go into his big cot soon. This is in his own room next to ours as his cot won't fit in our bedroom. So her questions are, since her baby is currently sleeping well, would you leave cot settling till all transitions are done and he is settled again? Alternatively, would being able to settle himself to sleep help make the transitions smoother? And she says, if I wait a few more weeks to cot settle,
Dr Laura (44:45)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (45:06)
Excuse me. Am I okay to keep going with the new sleep associations for now, which are padding, humming, and she's set up a scent for bedtime as well. What do you think Laura? It's a big question.
Dr Laura (45:15)
good questions. It is a big question. It is. And again, as with we seem to say this for a lot of our answers, there's no definitive answer. I look my my advice would be a right.
Dr Fallon (45:28)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (45:33)
introducing some settling now whilst he's in the place that he likes to settle that's familiar with him, familiar to him rather. So once he is able to settle a little bit more independently in his bassinet it might then be a smoother transition when you do move him into the cot. Now it sounds like you're in a kind of luxurious position here where he's not yet rolling and he hasn't quite outgrown the bassinet.
Dr Fallon (45:54)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (46:01)
In other times for families who do have a baby that has started to roll or has outgrown the bassinet, we just have to pull the bandaid off and just do it all at once, transition to a cot and do the cot settling at the same time. But you are in a position now where there isn't that urgency. And since you've started to introduce those lovely new associations, I'd be a little bit brave and think about putting him into the
Dr Fallon (46:11)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (46:31)
bassinet and doings, using those same associations that you've reintroduced, that you've introduced rather, whilst he's in the bassinet. It may be that you choose to unswaddle him first and continue to settle him to sleep like you currently are, get him used to then sleeping with his arms out and then start to do the bassinet settling. And then once that is established, then move him into the cot. What do you think, Valen?
Dr Fallon (47:00)
It's interesting. Yeah. I, I, this is, I struggle when parents in the clinic say, what do I do first? Do I unswaddle them or do I, you know, work on self settling in the cot and then work on the unswaddling and it ties my brain in knots. But I feel like potentially the easier path is to work on self settling with them swaddled. If there's not that urgency, you know, they're not rolling.
Dr Laura (47:01)
Would you have said something different?
Yes.
Dr Fallon (47:27)
because then they've still got that sense of containment that they're really used to. so they get used to falling asleep and that could just be, you know, you're still padding and humming to sleep, in the bassinet or the cot, but they're swaddled and then they get used to that. So that's fine. And they've still got that containment. Then when you go to unswaddle, it's not too much at once. Like they kind of, they've gotten used to falling asleep in the cot or the bassinet. I feel like that's a little bit easier only because if we.
Dr Laura (47:31)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (47:57)
unswaddle and then we're trying to put down a baby so we're rocking them to sleep putting them down asleep in the cot or bassinet they wake so often I feel like like Lucy's baby would wake up every sleep cycle going why are my arms waggling around like what's going on and then all of a sudden you're like forced to have to work on you know cot settling with this baby who's really upset because their hands are out everywhere
So I look, there's no science here. I've just, these are just my thinking, you know, my process of my thought process, but have a bit of a think about that. Maybe it's easier to do the cot settling with him swaddled and then unswaddle. But yeah, I mean, like you can, Laura and I don't even, we don't even agree, but it's, there's no clear right or wrong. And I think for every family, they just have to think through what they think will be the easier path. It's never going to be easy though.
Dr Laura (48:22)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
No, we don't. We don't agree. But no.
Dr Fallon (48:51)
It's easier, but not easy that unswaddling arms. think is one of the toughest transitions to go through. He probably won't care less if he's in a cot, to be honest, that won't be a really big change for such a young baby. but unswaddling definitely is. So there will be a week of, tricky sleep there, but everyone gets through it. You know, that doesn't break them. We all have to get through it. sleep does recover. Yeah.
Dr Laura (48:51)
know.
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and read through the lesson on swaddling so that you're fully prepared. You don't have to go cold turkey. You can just follow the steps in that lesson.
Dr Fallon (49:20)
Yes!
Yeah, I often forget to say that, don't I? But yeah, there's some lessons on so much of this stuff that we're talking about. So you do go back there and there's some good clear steps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let us know how it Let us know which one of us did the worst job. We also have we've got a couple of emails to go Chloe has a little one who's six months old.
Dr Laura (49:31)
Mmm.
And let us know which approach you go with, Lucy. Fallon or Laura's. Yeah.
Give us a report card.
Dr Fallon (49:54)
They've been struggling with his sleep for two months now. And she says, I've been dreading sleep training him. So thank you so much for creating a program with multiple options and digestible information. She says, my baby was sleeping through the night from 10 weeks until six months. He slowly started to wake up more frequently and I'd feed to sleep every time and he'd go back to sleep in his cot. He started waking up hourly and then we went to Europe for a seven week trip. how lovely.
Dr Laura (50:22)
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (50:23)
And she says, but now he's co-sleeping and will only fall asleep while feeding. She says, I got into the habit of feeding him lying down belly to belly and he'll feed until he drifts off. Naps are either through the same method or in his carrier. The slow fade approach will work best for us. However, he is a very light sleeper. So if I try to move him into his cot after he's asleep in bed, he will wake up as he's already in bed rather than.
in my arms. He also won't take a dummy or suck his thumb. She says if I try to feed him, excuse me, in my arms at bedtime, so rather than lying down, he will arch his back and look for the bed. Can you please advise whether I try the slow fade approach to get him to sleep in my bed without feeding first and then try another approach in the cot? The goal is for him to settle himself in the cot.
Dr Laura (50:54)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (51:19)
Or is it best to keep trying to move him into his cot and by and keep repeating this until he eventually falls asleep there? ouch, that's a tough one.
Dr Laura (51:28)
it is a tough one, Chloe. gosh, all right.
Dr Fallon (51:33)
Doesn't, doesn't sound like this baby's going to love a bait approach, does it?
Dr Laura (51:36)
I think it might be just too hard, Chloe, to do the slow fade approach. What we know with the slow fade approach is that it is one of the most gentle, if not the most gentle approach that we have in Sombel, and it has quite a few steps. And it works really well for a lot of babies and a lot of parents who want to go really gradually, and they're not in a hurry. Where parents can
come unstuck is if their baby is kind of highly sensitive to changes and then gets upset at every single little change that you make. from what you're describing there, Chloe, I just get the sense that that's your baby, that it may actually just be really too hard on him and you to use such a...
Dr Fallon (52:17)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (52:35)
a gradual approach. And it might actually be kind of all round to pick one of the approaches where you are putting him into the cot before he is asleep and then either patting him all the way off to sleep or using a very short intervals that you just sit beside his cot before you reassure him again.
Dr Fallon (52:58)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (53:01)
And then even though it might seem like a bigger leap than what you're doing at the moment with that belly to belly falling asleep, it actually will just be a little bit quicker than just eking it out over a long period of time. What do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (53:14)
Hmm.
think this is one of the cases where we can kind of stitch together a couple of approaches if we want to. Like I'm just thinking for Chloe, what you could do is keep feeding him to sleep in your bed, maybe for the next week, but patting and humming him while you're feeding him to sleep. So same pats, same hum over and over again, all shushing. So that he's still feeding to sleep, but he's got two new sleep associations added in. Which is so appropriate for an episode on sleep associations. And then...
Dr Laura (53:25)
Hmm.
you
Hmm.
Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, we're layering in those associations. So it's like the start of the slow fade approach. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (53:49)
Yeah, all these parents have given us great examples, haven't they?
Hmm. Yep. So you do that for a week and they become part of his sleep association kind of set. And then I would say when you, could then move him to the cod and if you've got a partner, you know, they're probably not feeding him. So if you've got a partner, maybe getting them to do the cot settling part of it would be a good idea. So you're out of sight, out of mind. but it could be the same padding and the same humming all the way to sleep in his cot. So the only thing that's changed is that he's not feeding when he's falling asleep, but he has those new sleep associations.
Dr Laura (54:15)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (54:25)
and then you could use the quick fade approach steps to gradually face that out. Or maybe when he's adjusted to the constant hands on support to fall asleep in his cot. Yeah. You then move to something like the supported accelerated approach. That's a little more intermittent. just, think, no, Chloe, that you can do this. It's going to feel hard at times. He's going to push back. He's going to have very strong preferences because he is six months of age and they know what they want. Six months old. they've, they've got, you know, really established habits at that point.
Dr Laura (54:36)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (54:56)
but it's okay. You know, you need to protect your sleep and his sleep. it's a sensible change to make and you can do it in a way that's really supportive. You'll both get through it and then you'll both sleep really well. yeah. So good luck and yeah, well done.
Dr Laura (54:58)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah, let us know. All right, and our final question is from Ash. So Ash writes, my son is 19 months old. we've got a toddler in amongst. Yay. And he says, I've just weaned him for a number of reasons, including that I was suffering severe nighttime breastfeeding aversions and also hoped it would help with clinginess and night settling.
Dr Fallon (55:19)
Yay.
Dr Laura (55:32)
He's extremely clingy to me and whilst he happily goes to sleep for dad when I'm out of the house, he has an absolute meltdown if dad tries whilst I'm there or if he tries to resettle him upon waking during the night. He has recently dropped down to one wake a night and Ash writes, thank God, but was waking three to five times a night until relatively recently. he must be exhausted Ash.
Dr Fallon (55:52)
You
Dr Laura (55:59)
My son is in his own cot and we have been rocking, previously feeding, to sleep and transferring. However, we are soon to start your cot settling techniques as it is sometimes taking me two hours in the middle of the night to successfully transfer him back into his cot. my goodness. So after waking it takes two hours despite him falling back asleep almost immediately in my arms. Ash, my goodness.
Dr Fallon (56:15)
you
Hmm.
Dr Laura (56:27)
No matter how deep asleep he is, he wakes and thrashes around and cries as soon as I lower him into the cot. I am nervous about this journey as he is a Velcro baby and wants to be in my arms 24-7 and I know he will strongly resist cot settling. However, I don't see any other way to get my own sleep back on track. Do you have any advice to help get him comfortable with dad putting him to sleep whilst I'm still in the house?
I hope to have a second baby in the near future and I can't do both new baby and toddler overnight. yeah.
Dr Fallon (57:05)
Ash, you're right. You've like, you're making a really good call here because you need your own sleep to be back on track. and you need to be well rested for whatever's to come in future. it's so tough with toddlers who have such strong, strong sleep associations again, you know, they've got these really strong preferences. So what I would be thinking about is that he, you mentioned that he settles fine for his dad. If you're not there.
Dr Laura (57:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm... Mmm...
Dr Fallon (57:35)
And what that tells you is that if dad is settling him, he's fine. So whether you're there or not, he's fine. Like it's just, if you're there, he's thinking, well, maybe if I get really cranky, mum will come in and do something different. And maybe that's happened before. It's reached a point where you've just gone, God, this is a hell. I'll just go in there and him to sleep. that's, know, what he's wanting. So he's probably learned over the past that.
Dr Laura (57:44)
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (58:03)
If he absolutely cracks it, things change, dad gives in, mum will come back in again. But that is him having really big emotions. It's not that he's frightened or worried or scared because he knows he's safe. He's got, he's literally in someone's arms. The arms of someone who loves him. He's just having huge emotions because he is really annoyed about the changes that you're trying to make. and our job as parents is not to go, these things upsetting them.
Dr Laura (58:14)
Mm.
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (58:33)
and they're cranky about it. Therefore I'm going to go and change what I'm doing. Our job is to support them through those big feelings. He's allowed to have those big feelings. He's allowed to be hellishly pissed off and really cranky. That's fine. Your role is to just show him that yet you can get really cranky and we're still here to support you. We still love you.
Dr Laura (58:43)
You
Dr Fallon (58:53)
Everything's okay. And if you just keep persisting, he'll start to realize there is no point in having this huge, big emotional meltdown because nothing's changing about how I'm being settled for sleep. And my parents are still here. They still love me, but they're just settling me in this very boring, consistent way. So I would say once you decide to make that transition, stick to it like glue because he's smart. And if you waver a little bit, he's just going to go great. Yep.
Dr Laura (59:06)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (59:23)
screaming my lungs out changes what they do. talk to your partner, come up with a really clear plan. I love that you're thinking about those cot settling approaches, with whichever one you try. Go into it with a steely resolve, use lots of self-talk. You know, he's loved, we are right here with him. These are just big emotions, but I'm supporting him. You know, we're here with him.
Dr Laura (59:26)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (59:46)
because it might just take two or three days of total consistency. And then he'll realize, okay, yeah, I'm surrounded by love and I'm okay. but yeah, they really mean business. I am settling in the cot. There is no other way. but it's, so tough, but I think just remember this is a necessary thing. We need to improve sleep health for everybody in the family. you're not doing any harm or any damage. it's perfectly reasonable for him to sleep in his cot. and you're going to be giving him a lot of support to make that change.
Dr Laura (59:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (1:00:16)
is there anything I'm missing there, Laura? I'm just trying to, I would like to feel more helpful with this one, but I think it is just a bit of a tough situation, isn't it?
Dr Laura (1:00:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, it is. And I think having in your mind that you, your job as a parent is to help him contain those emotions. He can't do it himself. He doesn't have a fully developed prefrontal cortex like you do. And your job is to stay super calm, control your own emotions in the night using your prefrontal cortex to
make sure that you're evaluating any emotion that is coming up for you when your toddler is crying. He doesn't have that. So he needs you to stay on your partner to stay calm and help contain his emotions. He's allowed to have them, like you said, Fallon, but it doesn't mean anything's wrong. He just hasn't got the ability to regulate his emotions yet because he's not quite too.
So yeah, wearing some headphones, being having a little mantra to yourself, he's safe, he's warm, he's loved. And this is needed for his sleep health. If he was refusing to eat vegetables and fruit, I would still give him vegetables and fruit. Just because he throws it on the floor and screams that he wants a yoga only wouldn't mean that you stop giving him vegetables and fruit. You would keep on offering it to him. And it's the same with the sleep.
Dr Fallon (1:01:46)
Yes.
Dr Laura (1:01:48)
health, his sleep health at the moment isn't as good as you'd like it to be. And it's not conducive to good family functioning, you want to expand your family and it's impeding your ability to do that. And so it's perfectly reasonable to address that sleep health in a really thoughtful, consistent approach that you have decided upon with your partner and go into it with that Steely Resolve and know you're doing the right thing.
Dr Fallon (1:02:18)
Laura, that's going to be music to, to Asha's ears. I think you just put that so beautifully. And I like the vegetable analogy as well. It's so true. I often talk about the chocolate milk one, you know, a child, a toddler gets a taste of chocolate milk and they're like, I don't want normal milk anymore. I want this chocolate milk. It's awesome. It doesn't matter how upset they get. You're not going to start giving them chocolate milk every day, you know, like it's. Yeah, it's fine. You you're on the right path. Asha, you're going to get through this and so will your child.
Dr Laura (1:02:41)
No.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:02:49)
This has been the most massive episode. So now we'll dive into the daylight savings times changes just really quickly. Please go follow our social media channel. It's infant.sleep.australia. Follow us along on Instagram. Probably it's where we're most active. We will post some really clear details around this change, but just very quickly with daylight savings, the clocks are going to go forward an hour on Sunday, the 6th of October in I think it's some of the Eastern states, not Queensland is it?
Dr Laura (1:02:51)
Yeah, it has.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (1:03:17)
Anyway, I'll put that in the post on Instagram. so this is the change that is awesome for those who have babies or toddlers who are waking up too early. So a 6 AM wake up will just automatically become a 7 AM wake up for example. But it's really hard for those who already have a late bedtime and they would rather it be earlier because bedtime is obviously going to become an hour later than usual. So you've got a couple of options. You can go into this being really proactive or
Dr Laura (1:03:17)
No.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:03:44)
You can be like Laura and I fly by the seat of your pants and be reactive. Both options are totally fine. If this causes you anxiety, I'd suggest you just go with the flow and things will just pan out. Okay. so if you're going to be reactive, that's where you don't do the preparation ahead of time. when the clocks change, you could just focus on giving your child plenty of natural light during the daytime and just get them up on time in the morning or earlier. If you're aiming to, you know, keep the usual wake up time.
Dr Laura (1:03:46)
you
Dr Fallon (1:04:14)
They might take longer to settle at bedtime because it's going to feel like they're going to bed early. So you might need to delay bedtime a little bit until they're showing signs that they're really sleepy. You might gradually move that forward if it's a problem for you. If you want to be really proactive, if your baby's on a great schedule and you're like, I have to keep them to this schedule, what you're going to do is start to move their wake up time, their nap times and their bedtime 10 minutes earlier every day for the next six days.
Dr Laura (1:04:27)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:04:41)
starting from tomorrow, which will be Tuesday the 1st of October. So if they are, let's say they wake up at 7am to get out the door to childcare, tomorrow you wake them up at 6.50, the next day you wake them up at 6.40 and you keep moving it along and then on Sunday the clock goes forward and they're already prepared to wake up at 7am as per usual. So we'll pop a really clear guide on our social media channels so you can follow along with that.
Dr Laura (1:04:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:05:08)
And yeah, whatever option you decide to take is perfectly valid and fine. So just to finish up, if you are enjoying our podcast, please like it, subscribe to it, leave us a lovely review. We absolutely love it. If you've been listening in and you're having sleep difficulties, consider joining, go and check out the website. I'll tell you all about the Sombel programs and what's included. We think they're pretty awesome, but they're not for every family. So go do your reading and have a think. Is this the right fit for me?
It's always going to be there for you if you need it. If you are a Sombel member, we've got coaching calls available next week. There's quite a few there actually, and I know they'll fill really quickly. So if you're needing some extra support, please do reach out. Coaching calls are a great way to get that support. So thank you everyone for tuning in yet again, and you'll hear from us next week.
Dr Laura (1:05:38)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
