Dr Fallon (00:53)
We want to talk about the 17 diapers trend on TikTok. Hannah is a mum who posted a video counting the number of dirty diapers she could find lying around her house and she found 17. She has a newborn and a toddler. So that's probably one day's worth of dirty nappies. Pretty normal stuff. But over 10,000 people jumped on her post to leave nasty, horrible comments. But that wasn't the end of it.
An army of mums came to Hannah's rescue, creating their own videos describing what their own version of 17 diapers looked like. TikTok was flooded with videos highlighting the incredibly difficult time that postpartum is for mothers. And I know myself watching along, the sense of comradery this created was awesome. This week, we're going to talk about our version of 17 diapers.
And we encourage you to talk about your own experiences with the mothers around you. So no tired mum feels shamed or alone. Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway, we're PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia.
Laura, what's your version of 17 diapers?
Dr Laura (02:24)
We had such a interesting WhatsApp discussion this morning, Fallon, didn't we? When I don't actually go on TikTok very often. And so it had passed me by and I was like, what? What's this? And then I fell down the rabbit hole and I my goodness. So my version of the 17 diapers was spew rags or spew cloths.
Dr Fallon (02:31)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (02:53)
So people who have listened from the start will probably be aware of the fact that my second born suffered from really bad reflux. So I was like Hannah in that I was juggling a newborn and a toddler and my newborn was really quite unwell. And he was just spewing left, right and center and massive
dinner plate, spews after every feed, poor little fella. And I just had piles of those kind of terry toweling rags, cloths everywhere, every corner of the house, every surface of the house, every, you know, anywhere that I could hang a spew rag over the top of lamps, they were everywhere. And I just could.
Dr Fallon (03:32)
Yep.
Hahaha
Dr Laura (03:48)
not for the life of me keep up with washing these cloth rags. The spewing that my poor little boy was doing was just so extraordinary that I just couldn't keep up. then, as I think I was saying to you earlier, Fallon, in the WhatsApp exchange, was that my toddler was really into baby dolls at the time, and she was loving doing...
Dr Fallon (03:52)
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (04:18)
role playing or like pretending to feed her baby dolls when she could see me feeding her baby brother. And so then she wanted to role play with the spewrags. So I had piles of spewrags that were ready for me to use for my son. And then my daughter then was having piles that she wanted to use for her dolls. And
Dr Fallon (04:22)
Hahaha!
Hmm.
Dr Laura (04:46)
then I couldn't tell which ones were clean, which ones were dirty, was my daughter using dirty spewrags on her dolls? Who knows?
Dr Fallon (04:49)
Who knows? And it gets to a point where even the sniff test isn't going to work because the whole house just stinks of vomit.
Dr Laura (05:01)
Yes. And I reckon if I'd done a video like this, mum Hannah had done and walked around my house, I would have picked up more than 17 spewrags. Yeah. Yeah. But it was not.
Dr Fallon (05:05)
Yeah.
Yeah. and yeah, it's, it's such a shame that when people post that really relatable content that it just gets torn to pieces by people. Like it's just the internet can be such an awful place. I actually, you know, I think about it, had a sort of similar situation to you, Laura, with, my middle child who had food protein induced enterocolitis syndrome, and he would vomit a lot, usually at nighttime. just after whatever he'd eaten in the daytime.
Dr Laura (05:33)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (05:43)
And so I would have piles of vomit covered, cot sheets, just throw it in the laundry and close the door. If I can't see that doesn't exist. And luckily I had a whole lot of those on hand, but yeah, it's that postpartum period. becomes overwhelming. So, so quickly. And a lot of people online who responded to that video, making their own kind of TikToks around their 17 diapers were
Dr Laura (05:48)
yes.
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (06:09)
describing situations where they just really hit rock bottom, but also talking about how, you know, you get a month down the track, a year, 10 years down the track. It didn't matter. It did not matter that that mother had 17 dirty nappies around the house. Like I think sometimes I didn't change the nappy pail for days and it probably stank, but it's like you're keeping your kids alive. That's all that matters.
Dr Laura (06:28)
Yes.
That's right. And like some of those reels that came out in support of Hannah were saying, this is a baby who had his diaper changed. I'm using the word diaper now. Nappy, I don't use that word. Had the nappy changed 17 times. This is a baby who has been taken care of, whose mum was meeting the baby's needs and putting those dirty diapers into the nappy pail or the bin outside.
Dr Fallon (06:47)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (07:01)
wasn't the highest priority. And it goes to show how priorities that you think are your priorities before you're in that situation just rapidly get very low down the list. Because instead you're actually, you're ensuring that your baby is fed and is not having nappy rash, is comfortable in their clothes, is being nurtured and loved and is getting good sleep and you are having some rest too and that your toddler is being looked after.
Dr Fallon (07:12)
Hmm.
Hmm
Dr Laura (07:30)
And in actual fact, those 17 diapers are just an indication of the great work that Hannah was doing.
Dr Fallon (07:38)
Yes, exactly. And having a perfectly clean house doesn't mean that you're not going to hit rock bottom. Like there are parents who will prioritize keeping everything looking as perfect as possible. And then they're suffering on the inside, you know, and might be having a really tough time in other ways. You know, I think too, it's not just first time mums, second and third and fourth time mums as well. It can hit you.
Dr Laura (07:40)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:03)
in ways you're not expecting. And that was my experience. I was kind of thinking, what was my 17 diapers? And it was my third born. She was born premature. So she was about five or six weeks early. And my two boys were at home and I was staying at the hospital. She was in special care nursery and was having feeding problems. And it had all just come on so suddenly. I wasn't expecting to be
Dr Laura (08:07)
Mm, yeah, what was yours?
Dr Fallon (08:33)
having a baby for another, you more than a month. and I'd never been away from my older two really at all. Cause we don't have family that would, you know, come and take them overnight or anything. They just never been away from me. and just to experience a special care nursery as well is just for me, it was so overwhelming. Such a, you can't have any alone time with your baby either. It's so, I don't know. I just, it totally just.
Dr Laura (08:34)
No.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (09:02)
It just exceeded what I could cope with. And I remember I've never told anybody this either. So it's kind of weird. saying it on a podcast. It's just between us. No one's listening. but I ended up just absolutely bawling my eyes out in the bathroom at the hospital. I locked the door and I just had this massive cry and this nurse, most amazing midwife came along and she didn't.
Dr Laura (09:05)
Yeah.
But now just, it's just between me and you, Fallon No one's listening.
Dr Fallon (09:31)
try to say, you're really upset. You know, are you not coping? you, she didn't try to go into all of that. I don't know how she knew, but that would not have helped me. I would have just hated that. I don't even, I can't even express why, but I would have just made me mad. I did not want someone asking how I was, but she just sat on the other side of the door and she just calmly talked to me about random stuff. Like I didn't even remember what it was. She was telling me about her shift and, you know,
Dr Laura (09:39)
Mm.
Okay.
Dr Fallon (10:01)
what did you name the baby? And like, she knew I wasn't in a good place, but she just sat there for probably 20 minutes, just talking and occasionally asking me a question. And yeah, I've never told anyone about that because I'm a very proud person. I struggle to talk about these things. But that was me hitting really rock bottom. And what I often think about is that it is the women who come in to save us.
Dr Laura (10:03)
yes.
Mmm.
You
Yeah
Yes.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (10:29)
when we hit rock bottom it is, and that's what happened on Tik Tok. It was this army of amazing women who basically just said, that's the same at my house, you know, or this is my version of, of 17 diapers or when I hit rock bottom and when things got really tough for me. And I think it's profoundly impactful. know a lot of people kind of get TikTok, know, whatever it's just social media for kids or whatever. don't care. love Tik Tok. I would die on that hill, but I love it because it.
Dr Laura (10:38)
Yeah.
Hahaha!
Dr Fallon (10:59)
It has, it creates these opportunities for really meaningful discourse. And in this instance, you know, probably a million postpartum moms struggling saw this unfold and saw all these videos that women made in response to say, no, it's actually really frigging tough. And it stops those women from feeling so alone and like they're failing. And that is so important. And I think that's why I thought this was a good topic for the podcast that you can be.
Dr Laura (11:15)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (11:29)
a third time mum or a second time mum, you can, I mean, I'd been working with babies for years. Like I had all the knowledge and everything. you can, you know, on paper, might look like you're going to absolutely kill it at parenting and be amazing at it, but I think everybody, everybody has a point where things come crashing down and that's normal. And if you're not coping, you obviously get support with that.
Dr Laura (11:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (11:55)
But just know that you're absolutely not alone. We see this glossy version of parenting everywhere we look. But for most women, that's just not the case.
Dr Laura (12:03)
Yeah, Fallon, it's so important that we have these conversations so that all of us mums who have come out the other side can support the mums who are going through it at the moment and just really lift each other up and support each other as well as we can. And listen, for those of you who are listening in, if you want to send us an email with your 17 diaper moment, we'd love to read it.
Dr Fallon (12:26)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (12:34)
And yeah, sharing is caring. So send it our way.
Dr Fallon (12:38)
Yeah. Yup. And you said something on our WhatsApp chat this morning, Laura, about how now we're through it. It's our job to help pull the women up behind us. And I was just like, yes, yes, it is. Like I want to be, I want to be that woman who doesn't look back and go, well, I got through it. will too. No way. I want to be reaching out my hand and pulling those women up because the thing that now I'm going to go on a rant, prepare yourself.
Dr Laura (12:47)
Yes.
Yeah.
No.
Hahaha!
Dr Fallon (13:06)
But the thing that bothers me is that there is an older generation of women who are very critical. And we get a lot of, a lot of the nasty comments we get on social media are from older women who instead of looking back with sympathy and like, it's going to be okay, just seem very, very ready to judge. And I think there's a whole lot of intergenerational trauma and I'm not going to unpack all of that. There's a lot of reasons why women, older women might feel they need to be like that.
Dr Laura (13:27)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:32)
But I just think I love our current generation because we really are genuinely about trying to support others and not minimize other people's experiences. So yeah, go us.
Dr Laura (13:41)
Mmm, yeah. Alright.
Dr Fallon (13:44)
So I guess we move on to parent questions. We've got quite a few to get through. And I think some of these we'll get through reasonably quickly. We've got one here from Angela who has a 16 week old baby. And she says that sometimes during his naps, he wakes up and cries, but she waits a moment and after a minute, he's putting himself straight back to sleep again. But she wants to have some reassurance that it's okay for him to cry like this before falling back asleep.
Dr Laura (13:50)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (14:12)
And also asks if there was something really wrong, would he continue to cry?
Dr Laura (14:17)
Yeah. Angela, really great question. Absolutely. A baby is going to carry on crying if there is something that you need to address. So what I suspect is happening is that your nearly four month old baby is coming out of a sleep cycle, coming up into light sleep, about to go back down into deep sleep and is just having a little bit of a squawk and a cry and then self settling, going into the next sleep cycle. Nothing to worry about.
Dr Fallon (14:27)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (14:47)
He sounds like he's doing really well and you're doing the right thing just to wait a little moment because he has shown that he can go back to sleep by himself. And if he couldn't and he needed some intervention from you, he would let you know.
Dr Fallon (14:51)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, he wouldn't give up. And also, often they're not actually awake. So when we look at the brainwave activity in these babies, some of them cry when they come up into the very light stages of sleep and then they go into the next cycle. So it's great that you're holding off because actually you could be going in and waking him up. So yeah, that's great.
Dr Laura (15:09)
No.
Mm.
Yeah.
Linda has emailed in and Linda has an 11 month old and is struggling with frequent overnight wakes. She says he wakes every two to three hours and will only go back to sleep being fed. He averages around 12 and a half hours of sleep per 24 hours, has just over an hour of day sleep across two naps and goes to bed at 7.30 at night, waking at seven, which allows around 30 minutes for a wake time during the night.
Linda says that on a recent holiday he co-slept and he's now much harder to keep in his cot. He now takes most of his calories during the night and whilst he is offered three solid meals a day he often eats very little. Linda that sounds really hard. He now cries very hard when Linda tries to take him off the boob and put him in his cot.
And while she has tried to introduce some patting and shushing to make the transition easier, it's exhausting and hard for Linda to stay consistent. Linda is keen to know if she should tweak the daily rhythm and also how she can reduce the night feeds.
Dr Fallon (16:37)
Great question Linda. I would say there's two things I'd say. The first with the daily rhythm. Don't allow for 30 minutes of wake time during the night. If you're trying to stop the night wakes and the night feeds, just don't allow that time in the schedule for it and that will drive up sleep pressure. So it might mean, you know, getting him up 30 minutes earlier in the morning, something like that is likely to help.
Dr Laura (16:37)
Mm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (17:00)
Then I would say, yeah, you're stuck in what we kind of call reverse cycling, where babies are taking most of their calories at night time and then really dialing down on calories during the day. And we definitely want to reverse that, but I wouldn't dive into it. I think we've got to think carefully about what you do and when, and what I'd be tempted to do since he's expecting to be co-sleeping is I would probably first work on just dialing down the night feeds.
Dr Laura (17:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (17:26)
drop one night feed every three or four nights and do whatever you need to resettle him. So if you might keep co-sleeping during that time, he's on the cusp of toddlerhood. So you might keep co-sleeping while you reduce those night feeds. And if you have a partner, it's going to be their job to do a lot of that resettling when you do need to resettle without a feed. But focus on just getting rid of all the feeds and when he's not expecting them overnight and he has compensated by taking on more calories in the daytime.
Dr Laura (17:37)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (17:55)
then you've removed a very major reason for him to keep waking overnight. Then you work on cot settling. Yeah and it could be, I mean you can look through Sombelle any number of approaches you could use, but once he realizes that feeding overnight is not going to happen, you're just going to have a much easier time getting him into the cot. Is there anything you'd add to that Laura? Have I missed anything?
Dr Laura (17:58)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
No, I think you've answered all of Linda's questions. I guess the only thing I would suggest is that when you are looking at dropping down the feeds overnight, what you could, if he's waking every two or three hours, gosh, he's probably having quite a few feeds overnight. So it might be that you, if he's having four feeds a night and you drop down to three and then in the three days where he's just at
three feeds a night, you might start to unlatch him a bit earlier from each of the feeds overnight, or just pick one of the feeds that you unlatch him, maybe just 30 seconds earlier or one minute earlier. So that over those three days, his appetite will increase during the day to take on more solids. And then you're just slowly reducing the next feed.
overnight that you're about to drop then when you're down to the two feed you could start to be reducing the how long he feeds for for the second feed overnight for those three days and then go down to the one for example.
Dr Fallon (19:17)
Mm.
Yeah, I think that's a good idea. It's, it's really tough work reducing those feeds, but so important because feeding is really tied up in the circadian rhythm as well. He's going to get much more restorative sleep at night when his body's just not expecting calories at that time. And it's also a lot easier to drop feeds earlier in the night when sleep pressure is higher than it is, you know, dropping a feed at 5am or something like that. So yeah, drop, drop them from earlier on in the night and then gradually move it along.
Dr Laura (19:30)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Really good point Fallon. Yes, yeah yes.
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Because that might be a follow up question that Linda has, or which one do I drop first? So it might be that you drop the one, the one that he has before midnight, drop that one first, and then work.
Dr Fallon (19:54)
Yeah, that can be helpful.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think too, like, sorry, Laura, like this baby is old enough that you could, if you're in a really desperate place and you just think I need really quick progress, you can drop feeds faster than that. You've got permission to do it really slow or really fast. like some parents would just say, right, I'm going to feed twice overnight. So we're going from four or five feeds just to two. That's reasonable. He absolutely will be fine with two feeds overnight. And then you could quickly drop those.
Dr Laura (20:26)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (20:30)
Yeah, so good luck, Linda. And if you need some support, I think reach out for a coaching call because that does sound pretty tricky. Loretta emailed in, she's got a 19 month old who has become very reliant on co-sleeping in the past two months. Loretta separated from her husband, moved house and her daughter also started daycare. So there's been a lot of big changes.
Dr Laura (20:36)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (20:54)
Loretta says she wakes at 4 or 5 a.m. most days but when she sleeps at her dad's one night per week she sleeps in until 6 30 or 7 a.m. Loretta has considered doing the co-sleeping fade-out approach but wonders if she's too young for a bed. She says she screams if I try to put her in the cot.
Loretta also wonders if environmental noise might be causing early wakes as they live near a noisy road and a train line so she's recently started to use white noise to help mask this. What do you think, Loretta? It's tricky one, isn't it?
Dr Laura (21:19)
Mm.
That's a lot going on. is tricky. Loretta, I'm very sorry for all of those changes that you're going through at the moment. And of course it will be hard for you and it will also be a really big time in your toddler's life as well. But that's not to say that we can't do anything about the sleep issues. When families are going through big upheavals, it's really important that we're getting the rest that we need in order to...
just keep on putting one foot in front of the other. So I think you're doing a good job, Loretta, thinking first of all about the environmental side of things. When we are thinking about early rising, one of the first things we're thinking about is, there any light coming in? Is there, are there any noises that are waking your toddler? So really good idea that you've introduced the white noise and you have that going on all night long so that it's just becomes one of your
toddler sleep associations. Now, in terms of then stopping the co-sleeping, I think just take a pause and decide if now is the time that you want to do it. Given that there is a lot of big things going on in your life, moving house, separation, starting daycare.
If you don't want to tackle the co-sleeping right now, because it's not the right time, that's okay. You could just focus on the early rising, making sure that the bedtime is when your daughter is actually ready to go to sleep. It may be that if you've ticked off those environmental issues like noise and light and she's still waking up early and if she's wide awake and raring to go, I'd be looking at moving bedtime a little bit later.
so that you can see if she can maintain her sleep a bit longer in the morning. What she might be doing at her dad's is kind of doing some catch-up sleeps as well, potentially. So you might be needing to look at moving bedtime. I mean, it depends on what her sleep needs are, but it could be even an hour later than what it currently is so that you can get her at least through until six. See if your ex can agree to wake her at the same time.
while she's at his as when she's at yours. Now, if you decide that it is the time that you want to work on stopping the co-sleeping, then you certainly could think about looking at doing something similar to the co-sleeping fade out, but really just putting a mattress right up against your toddler's cot rather than a bed.
and just giving her lots and lots of reassurance from your mattress so that you're on your mattress against her cot. Some parents will take the side off the cot just for a period of time when they're doing this, just to every night when your baby or toddler is trying to come over onto your mattress, just pop her back over onto her mattress until she stays there more consistently and then put the side of the cot.
back on and others say, no, I just want to not do that. I just want it to happen more quickly. And so they would just say, well, the side stays on the cot and as much as my toddler isn't going to be very happy about it, I'm going to stay modeling sleepy behavior as I lie on my mattress beside the cot. And you could even think about using something like the,
of Fallon, you're going to have to have like the supported advanced accelerated approach. was just having a drawing a blank with what the approach might be, what the name of the approaches were, where you are just reassuring your toddler really frequently, but from the mattress just on the other side of her cot. What do you think Fallon? It's really a bit of a complex case, isn't it?
Dr Fallon (25:11)
Yeah.
Yeah, it is. And I think you've probably started co-sleeping because you've been through all this change and you wanted to be a bit closer to her. And that's very, very reasonable. given what you've gone through trying to do cot settling might just feel too hard. So Laura's, know, you've given her really good tips for if she pushes ahead with cot settling. If that is just too much, the co-sleeping fade out approach, I would say do it because
it's going to mean that you move everything into the room where you want her to sleep. You can pop a safety gate on the door as well so she doesn't go wandering, but you're there to help her get used to her new room. And once she's doing really well there, it could be that you do something like our parental fading approach so that you're gradually leaving the room. But what you'd be thinking about is not having it set up like a normal bedroom, but almost sort of making the bedroom itself the cot, if that makes sense.
wouldn't be full of interesting fun things or dangerous hazardous things either. It would be a very empty plane room with just the mattress that she needs. So yeah, you could help her make that transition to being in there and then gradually remove your presence from there as well. So I'd say maybe think through those two different options. I think it's totally personal choice and what you're feeling you can manage because
Dr Laura (26:47)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (26:48)
You know, you don't have the luxury of having another parent there to be helping you make these changes. It's going to be so important that whatever changes you make feel manageable for you, Loretta. I hope that helps. Let us know how you go. If things are really tough. Again, that could be a really good one for a coaching call. Not everyone needs a coaching call, but when things are a bit complicated, it can really help just to have a really good chat through everything that's going on.
Dr Laura (26:53)
Hmm.
Mm.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Okay, now we have an email from Ariane and Ariane wrote in with questions about figuring out the best daily rhythm for her six and a half month old baby. She describes that her baby has variable days, sometimes coping really well with three to three and a half hours awake between naps and other days she's tired and cranky after just two hours awake. Ariane has been aiming for a 13 hour daily rhythm but wonders
if the inconsistency day to day means she might actually need more sleep. Or then again, she try, Ariane says, should she try to stick more strictly to her daily rhythm and see how things go.
Dr Fallon (27:54)
Yeah. So I would say when, when a parent says they're aiming for a 13 hour daily rhythm, always makes me think, is it a wishlist item? Like I would just look at like, what has the average been over the last week? So even though there's a lot of variability, how much sleep is, is she averaging? and then building that rhythm around that. And then of course, when you first start a new daily rhythm,
Dr Laura (28:06)
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (28:24)
there will be times when they're really tired and you're like, we're trying to kind of massage them into this new pattern. I'm gonna have to stretch them out a little bit longer. So it can be really normal to get some, you know, times when you're two hours in and they're really cranky and tired, but it's just part of adjusting to that daily rhythm. But once they adjust to it, it should be a really good fit. So I think just check what she's averaging at the moment.
Dr Laura (28:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (28:47)
Build out the daily rhythm. Make sure you do at least a full week on that rhythm, sticking to it as closely as you can. So many parents ask us, do I have to wake them up from a nap? And we're like, yeah, because if the naps are going on too long, that daily rhythm is just not, it's not a daily rhythm. You've introduced a bit of a wild card. So yeah, I wouldn't say that the inconsistency means she might need more sleep. I'd just be thinking that.
Dr Laura (28:47)
Mm.
Yes.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (29:11)
You know, she's a baby and they also, you know, she's adjusting to a new daily rhythm, but also, you know, your baby's learning new skills and every day can just be a little bit different. There's going to be a little bit of up and down. yeah. So I would just, yeah, check the total sleep average and then work out what daily rhythm you're going to stick to stick to it for a full week. Very kind of rigidly to really test it out. And if things aren't going well at the end of that week, then think about adding a bit more in or making adjustments as you think you need to.
Dr Laura (29:20)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:41)
but just give it that full week first. Would you say that's okay, Laura, or have you got other thoughts on that one?
Dr Laura (29:43)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's fine. I think also that when we're thinking about how long babies are awake between their naps, it's very usual and typical for babies to be able to tolerate shorter times awake earlier on in the day and longer times awake before bed. sometimes I have a, yeah, my spidey senses start to...
Dr Fallon (30:09)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:16)
quiver when I hear a parent talking about a one particular awake time between naps. it may be Ariane that your baby can tolerate two and a half to three hours, depending how many naps she's had, let's say she's on three naps a day, it might be two and a half, three hours before the first nap.
Dr Fallon (30:16)
You
Dr Laura (30:40)
but then between the first nap and the second nap, it might be a different amount. And then before bed, it's going to be getting up there closer to three and a half hours, maybe even four at her age that she can manage awake. So, and then again, from day to day, there will be a bit of variability like Fallon has said. So yeah, I would say do exactly what Fallon just said. And
Dr Fallon (30:53)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (31:08)
double check what her actual sleep needs are, work up the daily rhythm. Don't be worried if she's really grumpy sometimes, you if you're trying to keep her awake until bedtime and she seems a bit cranky, put her into water, put her into company, put her into nature and think about, you're smiling Fallon, like I've said something crazy. Are you disliking where I said Fallon's absolutely right? You're like, good, that will just be.
Dr Fallon (31:33)
No, no, no, I'm just laughing because our signal cut out and you were just frozen for ages. And I was sitting here kind of like, I'll just keep smiling and nodding. And then you came back in. I don't know. just found it very funny.
Dr Laura (31:48)
funny. I thought, God, she's laughing at something I've just said. So yeah, so Ariane, sorry, I got distracted by thinking Fallon was laughing at me. Try not to worry too much about those particular strict awake times. And just think about distracting your baby as you try to help her stay awake a little bit longer during the day. It's not going to break her.
Dr Fallon (31:50)
Uhhh...
No.
Dr Laura (32:17)
She's not gonna become really overtired. We're not saying keep her awake for six hours. She's gonna be all right. And once you've really nailed down what her sleep needs are, then I think it's gonna become a little bit easier to work up a daily rhythm that suits her.
Dr Fallon (32:21)
Yeah.
Yeah, perfect, good advice. All right, and we also have an email from Anita who has a six and a half month old boy who self settles in his cot with no hands on support at all. He's averaging around 12 and a half hours of sleep per 24 hours. And Anita describes a daily rhythm that loosely fits in with that sleep need. However, he wakes two or three times per night to feed.
and has done so for several months despite working on self settling and also tweaking the daily rhythm so that he's now just on two day naps. He has one solid meal per day. Anita says she's exhausted and worries about leaving the house in case his daily rhythm gets thrown out and then he has an even worse night. So she wants to know if sticking to two naps is okay. Is it okay to offer the odd power nap if he's super tired?
Dr Laura (32:59)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (33:26)
She also wonders could his false starts be more of a habit than actual low sleep pressure? And how can she prevent super early wake ups? I like this question because we often get this in clinic, don't we Laura, where we sort of see parents have done sort of all the right things and it's just not quite coming together. So I'm interested to know what jumps out at you with this case.
Dr Laura (33:43)
Mmm.
Yes. Well, Anita, hope that and just in terms of the early wake ups that our answer earlier for Loretta about thinking about environmental noises impacting a child's ability to maintain their sleep to a reasonable hour of the morning is helpful. But just
Dr Fallon (33:57)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (34:11)
The first thing that jumped out at me Fallon when I read Anita's email was how her baby is six and a half months old and is so far having one solid meal a day. And what we know is that hungry babies are not going to be able to maintain their sleep all night. And at six and a half months, I'd be thinking that
If your baby's only having the one solid meal so far during the day, then there's a good chance that he may well need one or two feeds overnight until the solace become established during the day. So it's not a really unreasonable number of wakes overnight. It's not completely unexpected for a child, a six and a half month old to be waking a couple of times a night.
But that's not to say it's not exhausting. I hear you Anita, it is exhausting. And this is on the back of probably a while of him having this number of weights, probably more when he was younger. So to help you to support him to start to have fewer wakes up, wake up overnight, I'd be really thinking about increasing that solid food intake.
to three meals a day and then also beginning to introduce some snacks too. So that he begins to take on more calories during the day, which means he won't need to have as many calories overnight. And you should then start to find that the frequency of the wakes overnight starts to reduce from two to three to just one to two to just one and then hopefully drop it when he's ready.
What else would you add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (36:09)
Yeah, no, I think that's really, really good advice. I think so often when solid food takes off, it just means that when you drop a night feed, it can be tricky to drop a night feed. I very much appreciate that. But when you do drop a feed, they've got an opportunity to take on more calories in the daytime. And that's essentially what you're trying to do. He might not sit down and eat like three large meals, but just offer them. So his body's learning, okay, there's a chance to have a few more calories in the daytime. that can be a good way to, sorry, my phone is going off.
Dr Laura (36:31)
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (36:39)
That's my alarm that it's time for my kids to get ready for bed. How appropriate. it never goes to plan Laura. That's just like the, come on dial things down Fallon because you're to have to make them sleep soon. Anyway, no. So look, think, yeah, increasing solid food is likely to make a really big difference and just
Dr Laura (36:45)
That is appropriate! I'm very impressed! Well done!
Yes
Dr Fallon (37:06)
go into it when you do reduce the feeds, have a really clear plan for exactly how you respond. So when he wakes at night, I'd definitely be waiting a few minutes like that case we spoke about earlier. Often they call out and they're not really fully awake. And if we just hold off on rushing in, they'll put themselves back to sleep and it's more likely to happen if he's having more calories in the day and he's a bit less hungry overnight. And if you do need to go in to resettle him without a feed.
Dr Laura (37:12)
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (37:31)
knowing exactly what approach you'll use. So it's not confusing for him that you've just got something really consistent that you do.
Dr Laura (37:38)
Yeah. And Anita, the very fact that your baby boy self settles in his cot and he doesn't need any support to go to sleep. Such a good stage to be at. Well done. You haven't said whether you've used any of the Sombelle approaches to get you to that point. But what it does show us is that he can do it. And if we then look at increasing his food intake during the day, we're just beginning to rule out.
Dr Fallon (37:47)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (38:07)
that there's any hunger at play that's causing those wakes. Given that he can go to sleep independently at the start of the night, once we do kind of tick those factors off our list, there's a really good chance, that the overnight wakes are gonna reduce and you'll be feeling much less exhausted soon.
Dr Fallon (38:29)
Excellent. We've got some questions from Fiona that I think we will probably fly through pretty quickly. Fiona has a six month old little girl and has some questions about sleep suits. So first, Fiona asks if she surprises me with a random unexpected nap. I'm imagining her falling asleep, you know, on the play mat or something. She says, should I just go with it and pop her down in the cot? Or should I put her sleep suit on?
Dr Laura (38:30)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (38:56)
thereby waking her, but then enabling her to self-settle and keeping her temperature more ideal for sleep, but also strengthening the association that she has between her sleep suit going on and then falling asleep.
Dr Laura (39:09)
I think it probably depends on how long she naps for Fiona. If she's generally just a catnapper, I probably would just pop her down in the cot without worrying about putting the sleep suit on and just ensure that the room is warm enough. If she is a baby that has a good two or three hour nap during the day, then it may well be more worth.
Dr Fallon (39:24)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (39:36)
the risk of waking her by putting her into the sleep suit. But I don't think that has a clear answer to be honest. I think you've
Dr Fallon (39:41)
Hmm, no, I'd be like, it was my kid. I'd be like, I'm not touching you. Keep sleeping. Yeah, I think it could go either way. Fiona also asks if, and if she's anticipating a nap, she preps the bedroom, you know, puts the sleep suit on, gives her a feed and then settles her. If after 20 to 30 minutes, she doesn't sleep and is wide awake, Fiona gets her up. And Fiona was worried, does this contribute to a kind of disassociation with the sleep suit at all?
Dr Laura (39:47)
Yes.
Yeah.
That's an interesting question as well, Fiona. No, I love that you've got a really wonderful nap time routine. That's brilliant. the reason we have a consistent nap time routine is so that our babies notice those sleep cues and start to prepare themselves for sleep. Their mind starts to slow down and gets ready to let go and their body starts to relax for sleep.
Dr Fallon (40:14)
Mmm, I've never had that one before.
Dr Laura (40:41)
and so if you're, this is happening consistently that after 20 or 30 minutes, your baby isn't going to sleep. I'd be looking at moving the nap time 20 or 30 minutes later, to be honest. It sounds like she's not quite ready to go to sleep. because we would be wanting getting into her sleep suit to be one of her sleep associations. but I wouldn't be getting too hung up on whether it's going to cause the association to weaken. It's not like she's in that sleep suit.
Dr Fallon (40:55)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (41:11)
during the day at playtime or any other points of the day. So I wouldn't be worrying too much about that, Fiona.
Dr Fallon (41:15)
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree. The final question from Fiona I love because this is something I often thought about in the early days. She says, why are sleep suits often sleeveless? And Fiona mentions that she herself snuggles her own arms under the doona, most of us do, or they get too cold if we kind of have them above the doona. And she assumes that babies must also get cold arms. So why no sleeves?
Dr Laura (41:44)
There are actually sleep suits that do have sleeves. So I think that ergo, is it ergo baby? Ergo, ergo patch.
Dr Fallon (41:49)
Mmm.
Ergo pouch. I love theirs. That's what I put my kids in. They are just the most beautiful sleep suits. Yeah.
Dr Laura (41:57)
Yes. Yeah. So you can get ones that do have arms. And yeah, I know that one of mine that my daughter had was a really thick one. must've been a three and a half tog, but it's quite a years ago now. It wasn't with any smart material at all. It was like she was a Michelin, like her little arms were.
Dr Fallon (42:20)
Hehehehe. Hehehehehe.
Dr Laura (42:23)
stuck out at 90 degrees to her body because she couldn't bring her arms down.
Dr Fallon (42:28)
That's going to make it hard to down regulate when they can't bring their hands up to their mouth too. So it is a good consideration. but yeah, look, I, I really, I'm not sponsored. really wish I was because I love that company, but ergo pouch do such nice sleep suits that do bend in the arms. And they're the only ones I use for my kids for the same reason. I just thought I wouldn't have my arms out with just one thin layer. and I reckon there's probably some babies that wake up because they're
Dr Laura (42:32)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (42:55)
they're feeling the coldness in their arms. So if you think that's a problem or you live in a cold climate, yeah, it could be a good one to address.
Dr Laura (42:57)
Mmm.
Yeah, and we do actually know that if you get too hot or too cold, or babies become too hot or too cold overnight, it does actually change their sleep. So it actually impacts the quantity of light sleep to deep sleep that they have. So we really want that Goldilocks zone of the, we want them just right.
at sleep time so that they are getting they're not too hot and they're not too cold so yeah check out ergo pouch and ergo pouch if you would like to sponsor us please get in touch yeah yeah so okay so bonnie writes our daughter is two years and three months old and we've just moved house
Dr Fallon (43:26)
You
Yeah. Yes. Drop us an email. Do you want to read out the next question, Laura? I feel uniquely qualified to answer this one, so I want you to read it to me.
Dr Laura (43:54)
She seems to be having a hard time adjusting to the new house. She is awake for quite a while after bedtime and has needed a lot of settling to get to sleep. She's also been waking up a bit more than usual overnight. The other thing is, unfortunately, her room isn't as nice, quiet, separate as her old room, which might be playing into it. It attaches to our kitchen. We have hung a towel as a makeshift door and it's also attached to their hallway.
and the hallway does have a door. Bonnie says I can see now why Fallon you think you're uniquely qualified for this. Yes, so Bonnie says I feel guilty about this but it's just going to be the way it is until we renovate. It's still very nice, sorry, it is still nice and dark and well set up but I just suspect she feels uneasy or maybe that's just me projecting. She had become such a great sleeper with Sombelle at the old house.
Dr Fallon (44:29)
Yes, continue.
Dr Laura (44:51)
Is there anything we can be doing to help her settle into the new space? We're trying to keep the routine as it was. Perhaps it's just going to take time. The other thing I thought, maybe she's growing up and we need to look at capping her nap. What age do kids drop the nap altogether? I hope not for a while, she says.
Dr Fallon (45:11)
I love this question. find it very validating because I'm also renovating and my kids have been put through the wringer. That's okay though. Kids are resilient and they cope better with these things than we do. First of all with the nap, kids can drop their nap anywhere between two years of age and three years of age. So it could be that she's starting to get ready to drop that nap.
I probably wouldn't go in with that first though, because what you're describing Bonnie is really normal when they're sleeping somewhere different and adapting to a new bedroom. It's just harder to fall asleep. The sleep associations are all a bit different. The light comes in a different way. The noises are a little bit different. the room might smell a little bit different. and it does, it does just take them time to adapt. but they.
Dr Laura (45:38)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (45:59)
they can adapt and she will adapt. So I'd be really working at this for a month. It sounds like you're doing all the right things, trying to keep everything very similar. See if over the course of a month it starts to become, things settle down and get better. And if they don't, even if just a few weeks from now, if they're not, that's when I'd look at trimming the nap down and then eventually maybe we do have to get rid of it. It's really, really hard when you're renovating.
Dr Laura (46:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (46:24)
and trying to juggle kids sleep. I currently don't have enough bedrooms for all my children. I have a lot of guilt about that. Not that the kids really actually care. It's just, yeah, I'm projecting onto them. But I currently have my seven year old and my 11 year old sharing a bedroom. And I can't believe they've had to do it so long, but it was a really hard adjustment getting used to having somebody else in the room or all the different noises. We've used melatonin to help us with that adjustment and it really helped.
Dr Laura (46:46)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (46:52)
just having them feeling a little bit more sleepy. Yeah. Really, really helped with that transition. so I would say try not to feel guilty Bonnie, because we just have to go through these things and you're making your house better. And I'm sure it'll be a wonderful family home and all these struggles will be worth it. That's what I'm told. Okay. Bonnie and I are just going to hold onto hope and cross our fingers. One day we'll be in our lovely homes that everyone will have the right bedrooms. It will happen.
Dr Laura (46:55)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes!
Yes. Yes. The other thing to consider. yeah, I was just gonna say the other thing to consider would be to get one of those little canapes or canapes rather than canopy. So that's me wanting my dinner. Yeah, gosh, we're sorry, sorry, listeners. We are really giggly today because we're recording this at night. Normally we record it in the morning and we are sensible.
Dr Fallon (47:21)
Have I missed anything, Laura? Yeah.
Mmm. Nice little tasty treat.
We never, yeah.
Dr Laura (47:43)
but we are not feeling very sensible today. So I'm very sorry for that. But if you're thinking about making the bedroom, it sounds like you've done a great job, Bonnie, but if you want to make it even better, head to IKEA. Again, we're not sponsored by IKEA, but we'd love to be. One of those kind of places, know, Temple and Webster probably have little tents that you could put over the top of her toddler bed.
Dr Fallon (47:58)
Would love to be.
Dr Laura (48:10)
And then that might be a way also of blocking out some of the light. And it might just help her feel nice and snug and secure inside her little safe space. Not so bothered by the dust and whatnot going on in the rest of the house. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (48:15)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, sort of a room within a room. Yeah, toddlers can love that feeling of closeness and containment. Definitely not for babies. I have seen some people putting things over cots, which is really bad, but yeah, a toddler who's yeah, two and a half. Yeah, that should be fine. Good luck, Bonnie. We would like to see some before and after photos of your house when it's done. good. We had Cassie write in.
Dr Laura (48:35)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Okay, one last question.
Dr Fallon (48:56)
Yeah, one last question. Cassie wrote in to ask about sleep pressure and the daily rhythm. Her 11 month old daughter has been waking three or four times per night for the last month. Cassie adjusted the daily rhythm and she slept really well for three nights, but then started waking one to two times per night. So heading in the right direction. Cassie says she feels she can't trim any more sleep from her day naps and wonders if she's actually nearly ready to drop to just one day nap since she's approaching 12 months of age.
Dr Laura (49:06)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (49:26)
She also wonders if it's okay to switch naps around. So her daughter has a brief nap in the morning and her longer nap at lunchtime, just so she can more easily get out of the house during the day. But she won't do it if it's going to make the nights harder. What do you reckon Laura?
Dr Laura (49:40)
Yeah, Cassie, I think you're probably on the cusp of your daughter dropping down to one nap. Given that you made those changes, she briefly slept well and then has started to have some wakes again, but fewer. That is suggesting to me that it's probably a sleep pressure issue.
Dr Fallon (50:00)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (50:07)
look at 11 months, so we do see families in the clinic, don't we Fallon, who do their baby does drop down to one nap at 11 months. So it does, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. So if you did, and I know because I saw the full email that came through, Cassie does have a toddler as well. So perhaps she likes, it really depends what suits your lifestyle at the moment. Sometimes we find that
Dr Fallon (50:14)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (50:36)
If you have another toddler, another child who also has a nap, it can be helpful for both the children to be on one nap and that can be a kind of motivating factor to move a child to one nap a little bit earlier than we might otherwise do just so that we can get out and about with the toddler. So you could think about, let's trying it for a week, one nap, see how she goes. Or if you, if it actually suits you to keep her on the two naps.
Then think about just having two short naps during the day so that you're taking some of that, the longer nap time and popping it into the overnight sleep instead. So that that might plug some of those wakes that she is having in the night. What do you think Fallon, would you say anything different?
Dr Fallon (51:28)
Yeah, yeah, you could also push bedtime slightly later. That's another option. Sort of depends on on how your day goes and what's likely to suit you.
Dr Laura (51:33)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (51:40)
But yeah, I agree. could just try switching those naps around, do it for a week, see how it goes. Yeah. Good luck, Cassie. It sounds like Cassie's put a lot of thought into it, which is really awesome. As have all of the parents who've written in. They are fantastic questions and every, I think almost every one of these emails came with a beautiful paragraph about how their life has changed with Sombelle which I absolutely love. And I wish we had time to read more of those out. I'll try and get some up on the website or social media maybe.
Dr Laura (51:50)
Yeah.
now.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (52:09)
But yeah, just absolutely love the encouragement and the kind words. It's so nice, especially when we do get, look, when you work in sleep, you get negative comments on social media. just happens. and we're just total softies aren't we Laura it cuts us to the core because we're not terribly tough. so we absolutely love the families who email us and say really lovely things. it, need to see it, print them all out and put them on a wall for the next time we get a crappy comment from someone.
Dr Laura (52:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (52:40)
and Laura, was going to say, this is quite hilarious. Last week we talked about how, we set up an Instagram account specifically for brand new little people thinking, like, we're sort of thinking, you know, if people go looking for us, they're going to search for brand new little people and they won't find the Sombelle page. So we thought we'll just cover bases. And we told you guys to come and follow us along. We have a grand total of 21 followers and I had to look through the list and I think there's about five or six that are just like friends and family.
Like my mum's probably in there. Yeah. It's all areas. So I don't know. Maybe it's just a crappy idea, but if you want to follow along, go follow along. And definitely follow our main account, which is infant.sleep.australia. We've got loads of cool content planned on that channel that we think you'll really enjoy. We're heading into the last few days of our competition. We're running a giveaway where you can win a Sombelle membership and a coaching call.
Dr Laura (53:17)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (53:38)
but also some vouchers for some really beautiful, brands that sell gorgeous baby things. so I'll put a link in the show notes. You may as well go enter it takes all of 10 seconds. and if you've recently become a Sombelle member, then you can just win back, your membership. So why not? All right. I hope everybody has an excellent week and, yeah, we'll be back again next week.
Dr Laura (53:49)
Mmm.
Yes, absolutely.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
