Dr Fallon (00:37)
Most new parents are told to expect their sleep to change forever, but nothing truly prepares you for the reality of caring for a precious new life on such fragmented sleep. After the blur of the early weeks and months, many parents find themselves ready to make adjustments to where, when and how their baby sleeps. For some, this happens within the first six months. For others, it's closer to a year.
And for some parents, they simply aren't ready to make changes to their child's sleep until their little one is a toddler or preschooler. But one thing remains the same. It's usually the parents who want things to change, not the baby. And that can make the transition challenging. So what can you do when adjusting sleep and settling patterns turns out to be harder than expected? That's exactly what we're diving into today.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle pediatric sleep programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. We are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, we're up to episode 72 now. How did that happen?
Dr Laura (01:58)
my goodness, I don't know, it's happened as quickly as how quickly my children grew up. Like within a blink of an eye.
Dr Fallon (02:02)
Yeah this is like yeah this is your third baby it's my fourth baby growing up way too fast yeah it's wild
Dr Laura (02:08)
Yeah! How are you Fallon? know you had some really good news this week.
Dr Fallon (02:16)
Yeah, no, I'm really good. I'm feeling fantastic. I'm recovered from the surgery and it turns out the thing that I had the surgery for was nothing. I was like so worried that it was going to be something really serious, but it's nothing to worry about. And yeah, so I feel like a million bucks. It's like so nice to have that stress gone. Yeah. And thank you so much to everybody who emailed in as well. So many really lovely messages and wishing me well, which is so, so lovely. So thank you to those.
Dr Laura (02:31)
Yeah, thank heavens. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:44)
awesome parents who did that.
Dr Laura (02:46)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. And how are your ducks? I know that you've included in some of our social media posts, you've introduced the ducks and some people are interested in them as well. So
Dr Fallon (02:56)
Yes.
Yeah, I spent all weekend building them a new house, which was hard work, but it's so cute. They just waddle themselves off to bed every night and all I have to do is close the door and then they're set. So now they are, they're awesome. I was laughing Laura on the weekend. You were messaging me and you were like having a coffee at Chadstone and I was like, I'm building a duck house. And we were giggling at how very different our weekends are.
Dr Laura (03:23)
You
Yeah, completely different. But the reason I was in Chad is I needed to go and buy some new earphones because I had inadvertently put my ones through the washing machine and it was terminal.
Dr Fallon (03:39)
I can just imagine your teenager rolling her eyes at that Laura because you call them earphones. And not AirPods Anyway, she doesn't listen, hopefully.
Dr Laura (03:44)
yeah.
Yeah, she would be appalled. No, she won't be listening. She'll be appalled and put her head in her hands at how ridiculous her mother is.
Dr Fallon (03:56)
gosh. well, no, it's good to be back for another episode. And, you know, I think you came up with a topic for this episode, Laura, and it's such a good one because I think so often, look, I know my experience is that most parents are really, you know, they know that it's going to be tough when they need to make some changes around sleep and settling. And they know that their babies are probably not going to be super happy about it. but sometimes we do get parents that are
Dr Laura (04:07)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (04:25)
shocked by this and they'll come back to us and say we can't do that approach you suggested because they don't like it they're crying or you know they're cranky about it what what do i do instead and it's sort of like well we can't make your baby want to change it's we're gonna have to make some changes they might not like them and we'll give them lots of support and we'll give you lots of support generally you know any upsets over and done with very very quickly
Dr Laura (04:31)
you
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (04:52)
But that is a little bit of a stumbling block for some parents, isn't it?
Dr Laura (04:56)
Yeah, absolutely. When we are working on changing how our baby or toddler goes to sleep, it can be hard. It's not hard for all families and all babies and toddlers, but for others, it can be really challenging. And the fact of the matter is if it was easy, there wouldn't be so many parents out there seeking help.
and the changes, they would have decided they wanted to make some changes, they would have made those changes, it would have happened already, it would have been easy, and no one would be talking about it. But the very fact of the matter, that's not the case. It's a hot topic of conversation among parents, how's your child sleeping? How's your baby sleeping? Have you tried to change it? And there's lots of horror stories out there where people have tried to change it and they have been gobsmacked at the pushback.
Dr Fallon (05:21)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (05:49)
that they have received from their little one, their siblings or their co-parent. Yeah, so it can be very startling for families when they do decide to make the change and there is much stronger pushback than they were expecting. So we tried, yeah, you go ahead, Fallon.
Dr Fallon (05:54)
Yes. Yes.
Hmm, yes.
sorry. was going to say, then you consider that every time these parents go and sit down on social media, you know, they're scrolling through things. You've got this barrage of utter nonsense. Like there's some stuff out there that's like, you know, if your baby's crying, they'd been traumatized and all this horrible narrative around any kind of upset being harmful, not accounting for the fact that a baby's day is filled with so many incredible activities that build strong mental health and, know, not
Dr Laura (06:43)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (06:43)
they just look at this one instance of crying and go, that's terrible. You know, and so if you're a parent trying to make changes and you find it harder than you thought it would be, and then you've got to put up with this, you know, all these copious amounts of misinformation as well. It's just a rotten combination. I think it can be so paralyzing to parents. They just sort of go, I can't do anything. Can't change anything, which is a shame.
Dr Laura (06:57)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that listeners to Brand New Little People will of course know that it is okay to make changes to how, when and where your baby or toddler goes to sleep. But the trick really in the middle of the night, when you are putting these changes into place for the first time and your little one is really not particularly happy about it is really pushing back is to try to remind yourself of this.
that it is okay, you're not doing anything wrong. If it was something that was easy to do, then there wouldn't be all of the help and support available to you out there. And so when you're finding it tricky, just know that many parents have gone before you and have got through this. Many parents are doing it at the same time as you and you together with them will get
Dr Fallon (08:00)
Mm.
Dr Laura (08:04)
through it and it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
Dr Fallon (08:06)
Yes.
Yes, absolutely. It is perfectly reasonable for a baby to fall asleep in a cot if that's what your aim is. I think it is for a lot of parents. And I think what you say too Laura, it really speaks to the importance of just having a really clear plan. Obviously, if you're a Sunbell member or if you visit our clinics, you know, there's a lot of work on building out that plan. Even if you're not one of our clients.
Come up with your own plan because at 2 a.m. you know, you're probably not going to, you know, you're just, you're just going to be thinking, how do we just get all get back to sleep in the quickest timeframe? And often you lose sight of what the goal is. Yeah. Yeah. Make it stop. I need to go back to sleep, which is very understandable. but have a thing like how, what are we going to do if they, know, if they wake up at 2 a.m. what will we do? How will we respond? and, and you know, what are the limits of what you're willing to do in the middle of the night? What will you bend on and what are you just not going to bend on?
Dr Laura (08:42)
Yeah, make it stop. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:02)
And then making sure that all caregivers are across that plan. Because if mum's doing one thing, dad's doing something different. I shouldn't be using gendered terms, but if one parent's doing one thing, one parent's doing another thing, it's just going to confuse your child. So yeah, having that really clear plan, I think is absolutely step one. there's so much that we would build into that plan. What are the some of the things Laura, what's your next go to?
Dr Laura (09:05)
Mm.
Mmm.
Yeah. look, yeah, draw up a plan that all caregivers are going to follow. And that plan, you're going to be thinking through having some, making sure you've got some good foundations in there. So ensure that you've worked out what your child's unique sleep needs are and ensure that the daily rhythm that you have put together is appropriate to their sleep needs in terms of number of naps and
Dr Fallon (09:43)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (09:53)
how long those naps might be, make sure bedtime's appropriate and wake up is appropriate. Then we're looking at sleep hygiene in general, making sure the bedroom environment is optimal for sleep. So it's not too hot, not too cold, not too light, not too many distractions in the bedroom for your little one. Ensuring that you've got a nice, calming, predictable sleep time routine that you use at bedtime, but also a shortened version of that routine for naps.
And just doing these three things alone can lead to major improvements in your child's sleep. And for some parents where all their goal is simply to have a more predictable daily schedule, that's all they have to do. For other parents, if you are looking at working on how your child goes to sleep, so perhaps you're doing some cot settling or bed settling,
Dr Fallon (10:30)
Mmm.
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (10:49)
then it's important to pick your approach carefully. And when you're picking your approach, be thinking about how many of you are going to be involved in doing this? So what practical support do you have? Are you going to be doing the settling with the other parent if there is another parent at home? Or do you have grandparents who can be involved? How quickly do you want to see the changes come about?
Dr Fallon (10:54)
you
Dr Laura (11:18)
So are you returning to work next week? Or have you already returned to work and you're going, I can't possibly do my job very well. I need something really quick. Or is it that you've got overseas visitors coming to stay in a couple of months and you want to, so then you've got a little bit more lead time. So that will also guide you on which kind of approach to choose. Think about your child's temperament. Are they really...
Dr Fallon (11:32)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (11:44)
determined and very sensitive to transitions generally across the day, or are they pretty chilled out? That's going to give you some hints about how they might respond to different settling approaches. And then also, think importantly, Fallon, is to think about what your own tolerance is to the pushback that you will receive from your baby or toddler. And we know that sometimes there is wide variation in tolerance to crying.
Dr Fallon (12:06)
Mmm... Yes...
Dr Laura (12:13)
And if you have a very low tolerance, or your partner has a very low tolerance, then that is really going to be an important factor to consider when you are picking your settling approach.
Dr Fallon (12:14)
Hmm
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, you know, in thinking about, know, how much pushback can you tolerate? I think it's so important to think about is your child the type of child who will respond better to all the changes at once, but delivered in a way that's really supportive. So they're making one adjustment or excuse me, are they the sort of child where
they're going to cope much better if you're just making some little manageable changes and you're just creeping towards a new way of settling across several weeks. Every child is different and the time course that parents are on, yeah, absolutely is different. think like setting really realistic expectations as well. So first of all, thinking about your child's age. I mean, obviously a really little baby.
Dr Laura (13:02)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (13:17)
we can't expect them to be sleeping through the night or something. You can do all the great work on sleep you want, but they're still gonna need to feed overnight. So thinking about the age, also thinking about things like separation anxiety, a child with separation anxiety might struggle a bit more with some changes and you're gonna have to think through. Certainly in some bell we talk about which approaches are better for the toddlers with separation anxiety. But also just knowing that your child probably doesn't want anything to change.
Dr Laura (13:38)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Dr Fallon (13:45)
Like we said initially, so they will push back and have a think, you how are you going to, I suppose that the first step is just expecting that is going to be tough, knowing that there will be a few tough settles before things start to improve. And that can be really helpful for parents. There definitely are families who say, gosh, was once we got the sleep pressure high enough, they adapted in 10 minutes and it was super easy. And of course we hope that everyone will have that experience, but.
Dr Laura (13:57)
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (14:11)
The reality is that many won't and it will take, you know, a few settles, maybe a couple of days or so to really start to get some traction. and if you go into that, expecting it, then I don't know, just feel like parents a little bit more galvanized when it happens. I go yet. This is normal. We knew that this settle was going to be, I was going to say naughty word then a terrible show. but then you're not, you're not going, you know, we can't do this. We can't do it. You're just going, yep.
Dr Laura (14:18)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (14:38)
knew this was going to happen, but we're going to be okay. And we know that this is going to pass. so yeah, I think that's super important, but also just thinking about how you're going to manage it. I'm really sensitive to loud noises. I don't cope very well with crying. don't cope very well with my three kids all arguing and like that stresses me out. So use some noise canceling headphones. You'll still hear your child if they're upset, but it's going to take the edge off for you. And it's completely game changing.
Dr Laura (14:39)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (15:06)
Especially if you're maybe listening to an audio book or something where you can, you know, you're trying to keep track of the story, it's going to keep your mind a bit busy and you're less likely to feel panicked or, you know, worried, more likely to be able to calmly persist. That's important because your child is looking at you going, you know, there's all these changes, is this okay? And if you're relaxed and calm, then they, it sends that message of yes, this is fine. But if you're looking really tense and pacing the room and
Dr Laura (15:12)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (15:34)
greeting your teeth, they're gonna think, yeah, something's definitely off, mom or dad or whoever, doesn't look how I expect them to. So they can be great strategies.
Dr Laura (15:35)
Mmm.
Yeah. Hey, Fallon, that makes me think about a real I saw this weekend, which, you know, both of you and I learned about these experiments when we were doing our psych degrees. But there was this lovely footage of babies with their parents and they're in a like a psychology lab. So just a clinical room. And the babies are put on a table. It's done safely. A table that's a
Dr Fallon (16:09)
Mm.
Dr Laura (16:10)
glass table and have you seen it? And it's got a, it's got a clear, what looks like a cliff edge in the middle, like projected onto the, this glass table. And the mom, the baby is put on one side of the table and the mom is on the other. And the mom's either smiling encouragingly at the baby to crawl across to her, or she's got a kind of like a fearful expression on her face, like, don't like don't fall off the cliff.
Dr Fallon (16:12)
Yes.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (16:39)
And these babies, they obviously have to be able to crawl. So I think they were about 10 months old. The ones who, so they're just faced with exactly the same image, but when... Yeah, the... No!
Dr Fallon (16:44)
Hmm.
It looks like there is an actual cliff because they can't see the reflection on the glass. So it just looks like, yeah, it falls away and that they would fall and hurt themselves.
Dr Laura (16:57)
Yeah, and some of them actually kind of, it's funny when their mum is encouraging, they are looking towards their mum, seeing their mum smiling, and then you can see them kind of swiveling around and as if they're about to go down a step on a stair. Yeah, because they're thinking that it looks like they need to go down. And the babies whose parents are smiling and encouraging are just very happy to navigate their way across this.
Dr Fallon (17:08)
Yes, swivel their bottoms around to go down bum first.
Mmm.
Mm. Yeah. Test it out. They're willing to explore this new thing. Yeah.
Dr Laura (17:30)
Yeah. Whereas where the parents face is fearful, they do not continue. They then get upset themselves. And the only variable that changes is the expression on mom's face is whether it's a smile and encouraging or, and it is fascinating. I just love, I love this kind of stuff. mean, that's what my whole PhD was on parent-child interaction. it's, yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:38)
Mmm.
Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah, I do too. It is absolutely amazing though, because it's the same situation. Like it looks like, if I keep going forwards, I'm going to fall down, but.
Yeah, if the parent looks okay with it, then they're willing to explore it. But if the parent looks worried, then they go, okay, this is definitely not okay. And this is not safe. so for a baby who's just maybe been put in their cot for the first time, if their parent looks anxious, they're going to think, yeah, I should be upset because this probably isn't safe. Yeah. Mom or dad looks terrified.
yeah, so do think about that. It's so powerful. I'm so glad you brought that up. think our algorithms are closely aligned. Laura, we always see the same reels, probably set them to each other as well.
Dr Laura (18:27)
Hmm. Yeah, I think they are. That's right. So your child is more likely to be curious about going to sleep in their cot or their bed independently if you are encouraging them and smiling and a calm versus if you are getting upset about it and looking very tense and anxious.
Dr Fallon (18:49)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (18:56)
then your child may not then have that curiosity about whether they can do it. yeah, maybe that would just give you something to keep in your mind when your child is pushing back, that it's a good idea to just try and stay as calm as possible and wearing headphones, listening to an audio book or some music is a good way for you to do that so that you can provide that encouragement to your little one who is doing something new for the first time.
Dr Fallon (19:03)
Hmm.
Yes, and I think importantly parents have to weigh up to...
You know, what's, what's the, think about your ability to keep living with sleep as it is versus your ability to put your plan into action. You know, cause so often there will be parents who say, know what, we gave it a try and actually we're just going to keep doing what we're doing because it seems easier to do what we're doing and put up with some nightwakes or whatever then to fix the problem. And that's completely legitimate and fine as well. But there are plenty of parents who will go, there's no way I can live through another night of.
Dr Laura (19:39)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (20:00)
and sleep. Some of them will even say my baby's upset that I'm trying to settle them differently but ordinarily I can do anything my baby wants and they're still crying and upset and cranky and not sleeping. So weighing those up I think is really important. Might give you a bit of motivation too if you're imagining months of the same and you know you're not coping with it. Yeah.
Dr Laura (20:13)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And then look, if you're finding it really tough for you, you think you've chosen an approach and you're not quite sure you just want to talk it through before you put it into action. You can of course, book in for a coaching call to speak to either me or Fallon. And if you're a member that is, you can also send us questions to the podcast. And you know, if you've started the approach and you're feeling like this isn't going in the same way that you, or in the way that you
Dr Fallon (20:37)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (20:50)
hoped, then of course those are avenues that you can explore with us. And you can also have conversations of course with your maternal and child health nurse, your GP, if you're finding any pushback from your child to be really triggering and hard to manage. It's unlikely that's going to get any better over time.
Dr Fallon (20:54)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (21:15)
We know that children as they grow push back on a whole range of things and their behavior gets can get bigger as they get bigger and engaging with a mental health professional to give you some tools where understanding your reactions to those big emotions and giving you some tools for how to coach your little one through those big emotions. It's just really going to stand you in good stead.
Dr Fallon (21:19)
Yes.
Yep.
Dr Laura (21:44)
for the years of parenting ahead of you.
Dr Fallon (21:45)
Hmm. Yes. And I just want to jump in and say too, that what we're finding in our clinics is that, and really it's become our preferred pathway for families to take, is that families who enroll in Sombelle do the program and like really work up their plan and then come in for a coaching call, just do really well. And a coaching call, often it's just one, is enough to pull it all together.
Dr Laura (22:09)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (22:09)
that actually works out more affordable than coming in for in the clinic, have a 50 minute initial appointment and a 50 minute review appointment. And what we're finding is that there's so much legwork to do in those appointments, explaining things around sleep and unpacking it all. So rather than waiting weeks, I think it's five or six week wait at the moment for the clinic.
We are suggesting to families get started on Sombelle. You've got to make some headway immediately, getting great understanding of sleep, you know, working out all the uniqueness around your child's sleep. You can start to draft that plan. And then if you need a coaching call, and most parents don't, I think that's worth saying, I think it's something like only 10 % of Sombelle members actually need a coaching call. The vast majority do fine with just the program. But if you do need that call, then you can book it in and we can help tidy up that plan or make a few tweaks as needed.
Dr Laura (22:51)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:59)
or if there's a really serious sleep problem, maybe you will have two coaching calls. You've got that option of booking more, you know, if you need them. But it's such a great pathway in to see us is actually going through Sunvale. And that's definitely our preferred way of working at the moment. So, yeah, keep that in mind if you are struggling. Wow, we've got a lot of parent questions this week, Laura. We're going to have to put our skates on to get through.
Dr Laura (22:59)
Yeah.
Mmm... Yeah.
Yeah we have, have. Yeah!
Dr Fallon (23:25)
All of these. Shall I dive in and we'll start maybe with Melanie. Excellent. So Melanie has a 19 month old boy who recently stopped breastfeeding to sleep and who is now rocked, padded and sung to sleep by his dad. Melanie also trimmed his day nap from three to three and a half hours down to two hours. And both of these changes have helped to improve his sleep. Well done. That's fantastic, Melanie.
Melanie says he started to sleep through the night several nights each week. However, split nights have started to re-emerge. He wakes anywhere from 2 to 4 a.m. each night and Melanie tries to breastfeed him back to sleep because she's so exhausted. Fair enough. But she finds he's quite wakeful and fidgety. If she puts him back in the cot, he tosses and turns trying to fall asleep until he eventually sits up and Melanie tries to feed him back to sleep again.
Dr Laura (24:08)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (24:21)
She says after a few failed attempts, she brings him into her bed where he latches on and eventually falls asleep. So Melanie's wondering, is the two hour nap still too long? But she does note that she works from home, so she's really relying on that nap to get some of her work done. What do you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (24:37)
Melanie, my goodness, that's full on well done for those big changes that you have made. So your son no longer feeds to sleep, which is awesome. And he's begun to have longer stretches overnight and does sleep through the night sometimes. I would say that given that he is awake for extended periods of time in the night, we're probably looking at a sleep pressure issue.
Dr Fallon (24:42)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (25:03)
because even when you are offering him his preferred way of going to sleep, which is breastfeeding in the night, he's not able to go back to sleep easily. So I would be thinking, first of all, like you've suggested, considering reducing the duration of that daytime nap, hearing that you do need to have that nap in order to get your work done, then if...
So if we keep that nap the same, then Melanie, I'd be looking at reducing his time in bed overnight. So perhaps moving bedtime later or wake up a bit earlier. That would be the main way to keep the long nap in the day. And just knowing that as he gets closer to two, two and a half, it's likely that that nap is going to need to reduce. And you may then
be looking at trying to get some work done once he's gone to bed, because you'll be able to bring bedtime a bit earlier then with a shorter nap. And then that might mean you can, I know as unpalatable as it is, it may be the way that you get that work done is in the early evening. The other thing I would think about doing
Dr Fallon (26:12)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (26:14)
Melanie is that it's great that you have been able to move away from breastfeeding to sleep. But what I'd be suggesting is that his dad actually starts to wean off the rocking, patting and singing to sleep at the start of the night because his sleep associations have changed from breastfeeding to his dad doing the rocking, patting and singing. So I'd be looking at perhaps his dad can have a read through.
Dr Fallon (26:29)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (26:43)
different approaches and pick one where you can reduce the amount that Dad is doing at the start of the night until he's going to sleep without any hands-on support. Is there anything else you would add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (26:54)
Yeah. Well, it could be just padding and singing to sleep in the cot initially, and then phasing out the padding and then phasing out the singing. could be a really good way to sort of structure those changes. Work through the unique sleep needs chapter and then use the daily rhythms, the example daily rhythm charts to have a think about how you could structure the day and the night. But yeah, I agree with you, Laura. Once that sleep pressure is high enough overnight, then when you go to change the settling, it should be easier.
At the moment, he's expecting, well, if I wake up between two and 4 a.m., then I toss and turn a bit, usually something great happens. I get into bed with mom and it's so nice. Once that sleep pressure is higher, you just need to stop doing that, resettle him with whatever strategy you're using. And soon enough, he realized that, yeah, the co-sleeping is not on the cards anymore. But yeah, well done, Melanie. You're doing a really awesome job.
Dr Laura (27:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Our next email is from Katie and Katie has a 10 and a half month old who recently she stopped feeding to sleep. Well done. So like, like Melanie. She says that he is waking up four to five times overnight. sorry. No, he's not. Yes. Yes. Thank goodness. So she says that some bell really changed their lives and her son is sleeping through the night and occasionally.
Dr Fallon (27:55)
Another one.
No, no. She's recently stopped feeding to sleep and stopped waking four or five times overnight. Thank goodness.
Dr Laura (28:16)
occasionally waking just once in the night. Katie describes, yeah that's great, she describes a really nice daily rhythm that fits her son's 11 and a half hour sleep need. However this daily rhythm is a little different at daycare. He only takes one nap at around midday at daycare because he refuses to take his morning nap. He's tired in the evening but okay.
Dr Fallon (28:20)
Fantastic.
Dr Laura (28:44)
and they put him to bed 30 minutes earlier than usual on daycare days. Whilst he self settles at home, at daycare he will not fall asleep in his cot and is either held throughout his nap or he sleeps on a fold out kid's floor couch with supervision. His carers think he has separation anxiety and likes to sleep with others around him. Katie wonders if he's getting ready to drop to one nap.
And she also wonders what can be done to help himself settle at daycare.
Dr Fallon (29:16)
Great question. It's so interesting that he's not keen on self settling at daycare, even though he can do it at home. So I do wonder if he's not liking sort of being alone in that environment and he's wanting people around him. So first of all, I would say, yes, it sounds like he's getting ready to drop to one nap. I wouldn't say at 10 and a half months to just, you if he was 12 months, I'd say, look, just drop it, just go to one nap.
Dr Laura (29:22)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:42)
But he's that little bit on the young side, but it might not be long. You might get another month maybe, and then he'll just refuse a second nap at home as well. I think you're managing it the exact right way. I'm just bringing bedtime that little bit earlier those days and he's doing so well at night that currently it's not throwing around his nights. He's having really, really good nights. So I think it's fine to stick with that knowing that maybe in a month from now, you will have to drop to just one nap at home. Once he gets used to that, will protect his nights and things should be great.
Dr Laura (29:44)
Mm.
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (30:12)
so how do we get him used to self settling at childcare? It's, mean, look, you've got the option of, suppose, just speaking to the carers about what you would normally do at home. You know, if there's a certain phrase that you say, when you say good night, a certain way of doing things, you could ask them to replicate that. but I also think I wouldn't push too hard. Like they've found a solution to it. You know, he seems to.
to sleep okay in what Katie describes sort of a play area where he has his nap on that fold out couch. You know, you could think about maybe introducing something like a comforter that travels to daycare that he could take into the cot at daycare. I don't know though, what do you think Laura?
Dr Laura (30:59)
Yeah, to be honest, when I read this, thought we usually talk, we usually see babies who can self-settle at daycare and not at home. And it's, it's the opposite way around here. And if daycare have found a solution that works for them, that it's probably okay to continue like this because we know that babies
Dr Fallon (31:16)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:25)
very quickly and toddlers quickly understand that different things happen at daycare versus at home and different carers do different things at sleep time. So look, yeah, I wouldn't be stressing too much as long as daycare managing okay, it sounds like they are. All you can do is make sure that they have got a bedroom environment, sleeping environment, I beg your pardon, as close as possible to what you do have at home.
Dr Fallon (31:30)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:56)
making sure it's dark enough. And there's other children, since he likes company, other children sleeping at the same time and introducing a comforter that perhaps you have worn for a few days, Katie, so it smells like you. It's nice and comforting that he can have at daycare. And just know that it will probably be a short phase that he's going through.
Dr Fallon (32:16)
Yeah, I reckon it will go away with age. Often around that 12 month mark they start to look at what the other kids do and they start to feel a bit of that pressure, so the societal pressure, everyone else is sleeping in a cot, I better do that too. So often they just want to fall in line with what the other kids do. Yeah, good luck with that Katie, so glad to hear his nights are going so well, that's brilliant. The next question Laura is I think a very quick one to answer.
Dr Laura (32:30)
Yeah.
Mm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (32:43)
Stephanie wonders if she needs to recalculate her five month old sleep needs. She's tightened up the daily rhythm, but finds she's still waking multiple times overnight and she is tired during the day. When she wakes overnight, she's fed back to sleep. Otherwise she gets really worked up and begins to cry. So Stephanie wonders what should she do?
Dr Laura (32:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Okay, yeah, Stephanie, always a good idea when sleep goes wobbly to log sleep again, just to double check how much sleep your baby is getting and how much they need on a 24 hour period on average. Given that your baby is waking up so much overnight, it isn't a surprise that she's tired during the day. Given that she's also feeding back to sleep. One of the things I've
probably be looking at Stephanie is starting to unlatch her or taking her off the bottle before she has fed back to sleep to ensure that she is going back into her cot awake and then is doing some settling, whatever approach you decide works best for you. either patting her to sleep and then weaning off that or using one of the more hands-off approaches.
And as she gets closer to six months and you start to introduce solids, and as long as her weight gain is okay, then you can also look at beginning to dial back the amount of feed, number of feeds that she's having overnight, because she'll be getting a lot of nutrition from her solids during the day. Did you have anything else to add?
Dr Fallon (34:18)
Mmm.
Yeah, I'd only say that it is kind of common. A lot of parents think if we get the sleep pressure right and the daily rhythm right, the sleep will just improve, but it is almost always going to be a combination of increasing sleep pressure and making sure, especially at five months of age, making sure they're not falling asleep in one place and then waking up kind of horrified after a sleep schedule going, how did I get in my cot? Last thing I knew I was in mum's arms.
Dr Laura (34:41)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (34:46)
So you've really got to work on these things in combination because otherwise we've got really high sleep pressure and they are really tired but they're not able to sleep longer stretches at night because they keep waking up sort of startled that again I'm finding myself somewhere I wasn't expecting. So important to work on those in combination and I think
Dr Laura (34:59)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (35:03)
There has been some funny noise out there on social media lately implying that if sleep pressure is high enough, doesn't matter how a baby falls asleep. and that's just simply not true. There's literally no signs behind that at all. yeah.
Dr Laura (35:13)
No, that's not true. No.
No, no. And there literally is lots of science around sleep associations. And if your baby goes to sleep in one way, then they are likely to want those same, that same way to be present when they wake up overnight, when they have those natural wakings overnight. So even with high sleep pressure, when they've, they have done their deep sleep in the first part of the night, and then they
have their natural wakings all through the night as they move through their cycles, they come up into light sleep, they're going to be expecting to see the same things present as were there when they went to sleep. So yeah, Stephanie, I would be looking through the cot settling approaches as a way to help introduce associations that are not dependent on you doing something, so not dependent on you feeding her back to sleep.
So that she can come up into light sleep, go, nothing's changed. I've got everything around me that I need in order to go back to sleep and then go into her next cycle. Okay, Susie has written and Susie has a two and a half year old who averages just 10 and a half hours sleep per 24 hours. So this toddler has a low sleep need. Susie says he has one day nap.
Dr Fallon (36:20)
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Laura (36:40)
and she tries to cap this at an hour and a half maximum. He goes to bed at 8.30 p.m. and he wakes up at seven each day. Susie's been using the guardian gate approach, which involves putting a safety gate on the bedroom door to prevent her toddler from running around the house, but still allows her to stay close and offer lots of reassurance. Susie says the first few nights went well, but from night eight, he started to refuse to stay in his bed.
Susie starts bedtime at 8.30pm but he won't fall asleep until 11.30pm. If she goes in to hold his hand at 11pm, which she does to try to get him to fall asleep, he springs awake within 15 minutes. Susie says she's working so hard to stay consistent, has taken the prescribed breaks, but it's now night 10 and she's wondering where things have gone wrong.
Dr Fallon (37:39)
Susie, poor thing. It's super, super tough, but I think this is a really fixable situation. So let's dive into why. So first of all, if he's averaging 10 and a half hours of sleep per 24 hours, then we, you know, we want to be looking at that daily rhythm. So if he's having an hour and a half day sleep, he's probably expecting or needs around about nine hours overnight. But if he's going to bed at 8.30 PM, getting up at 7am, that's
Dr Laura (37:40)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (38:09)
10 and a half hours, I'm doing the maths on the fly here. So he's been given 10 and a half hours opportunity to sleep overnight, which actually is his entire sleep need. Even though he's only looking for about nine hours overnight. So it's not quite adding up. And what can happen in these situations is that sometimes they are just so wakeful overnight. They sort of realize, well, I've got to, you in this case, maybe an hour and a half where I can muck around overnight and not fall asleep.
Dr Laura (38:12)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (38:36)
because you know the circadian rhythms just figuring out well I can have a bit of a sleep in you know if I have a bad night. So just be thinking about that daily rhythm and tweaking that to really fit his sleep needs because if there are sort of pockets of say pockets of low sleep pressure sometimes it just means yeah they just take forever to fall asleep at bedtime and this can confuse parents because they'll often say but if I just go in there they'll fall asleep quickly and it's like yeah because with a lot of support we can dose
Dr Laura (38:54)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (39:05)
We're not really getting into great sleep, but we can doze a little bit and appear asleep. Anyway, so be thinking about that daily rhythm, working out something that's really going to fit his unique sleep needs. He's two and a half, so it might even just be time to drop the nap or cut it right down to just maybe 40, 45 minutes at first. And then what jumps out at me is that it worked well at first and then day eight, the wheels started falling off, which is just like textbook expected.
Dr Laura (39:20)
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (39:33)
around, I say sort of say seven to 14 days after you start a new approach, whether it's cot settling or bed settling, there often is this little re-emergence of the problem and usually last one or two nights. I'm really hoping that Susie will write to us and say, yeah, it actually has resolved even before you answered the question on the podcast. But there's always a rough patch and your child is just going, well, I don't know, these like how firmly are they committed to these new boundaries around bedtime?
And they're just testing out. Maybe if I get really worked up, you know, maybe mom or dad will change their mind. so it sounds like he's done that. He's just gotten up. I'm not sleeping in my bed. I'm just going to keep getting up. When this happens, you just have to stay as consistent as you can. And I know it's really tiring. Often it's one or two nights where they're really cranky about settling in their bed or cot.
And then once they realize that you're not changing anything, you're sticking to the same boring, repetitive reassurance, but importantly, you're sticking to the daily rhythm that keeps that sleep pressure in check. then they get through it and it all comes good. But if we offer extra sleep, go, they took three hours to fall asleep. I'll let them have a sleep in the next day. Then that sometimes throws the whole lot out because they are sleeping in their circadian rhythm thinks great. I've got time to be awake for three hours in the night because I can just have a lovely sleep in.
Dr Laura (40:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (40:54)
that's when the wheels can fall off. So keep to your daily rhythm, keep the same settling approach, knowing that it probably is one or two tricky nights and then it will get better. and that's the way through this. So Susie, if the wheels have entirely fallen off, you've started to go in there and hang around and help them get to sleep. Just go back to applying that guardian gate approach, you know, as strictly as you possibly can, but also make sure we're catering to that 10 and a half hour sleep need as well, because with sleep pressure high enough.
that consistency. We know he can do it because he did it for eight days so he will get back there. So hold on to hope it might be a few tricky settles and he'll be back, back on board again.
Dr Laura (41:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, great advice.
Dr Fallon (41:37)
Good. All right. Should we move on to We've got, says her 14 month old has responded remarkably well to the slow fade approach at night, but naps are a different story. says, I put him down. He relaxes and starts to drift off, even closing his eyes. But after a few minutes, he wakes up and all heck breaks loose. He screams and throws himself around the cot for between 30 to 90 minutes.
Dr Laura (41:40)
Yes!
Mm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (42:07)
says as soon as I pick him up and lay down in bed with him he falls asleep straight away. wonders if this means it's not a sleep pressure issue because he falls asleep with her there or if it's something else. This ties into what we're talking about. Sometimes sleep pressure is not all that high but with lots of comfort they sleep. But yeah, what do your thoughts Laura?
Dr Laura (42:26)
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm thinking if it is taking him that length of time to fall asleep for the nap by himself, and we know that he can go to sleep by himself because he does do it at night, then it probably is a sleep pressure issue. And I'd be thinking about moving nap time a bit later. So maybe up to half an hour, even an hour later than what you're currently doing. We sometimes talk about the kind of
Dr Fallon (42:48)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (42:57)
passenger seat analogy, Fallon, where if you're a passenger in a car, it's one o'clock in the afternoon, you're obviously not driving, but you're on the Hume Highway. I don't know why I always pick on the poor old Hume, but just because it's particularly boring. I to spend lots of hours on the Hume. Anyway, you're on a boring highway, the sun's beating in, you're nice and warm. You can fall asleep, doze off and...
Dr Fallon (43:24)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (43:25)
then you wake up when the car stops. And it surprises you because you wouldn't normally fall asleep at that time of the day, but everything is just so, so you can do it. So when we're thinking about Em's toddler, he can fall asleep if the conditions are just right, which is lying down next to him. And so that's like the toddler being strapped into the passenger seat.
Dr Fallon (43:48)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (43:54)
heading down the Hume. He's just going, yeah, that's right. And that's what I would prefer. He's a toddler. So he is being quite determined in what he would like to happen at his nap. And in the middle of the day can be really hard for toddlers because they they're missing out. They think they're missing out. Everything's, there's things going on. There's people visiting there. You know, what's going to happen while I'm asleep is something amazing going to happen.
Dr Fallon (43:59)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (44:23)
and I won't know about it. So we can find that they really push back. So I'd be thinking about moving bedtime a bit later and then just making a rule that you're no longer going to lie down with him for his nap. You can use the old GP excuse, I've got a sore back, to sit on a chair beside his cot as he goes off to sleep, for example, or his bed, presumably he's in a cot. And then using the similar approach that you've used at bedtime.
Dr Fallon (44:26)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (44:53)
and just being a little bit of a stuck boring record and things should come good.
Dr Fallon (44:57)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And given that he's 14 months old, rather, if he's on two naps, I'd probably say it's a good sign to go to one nap. If that is the case, if he's really pushing back for one particular nap, it might be that it's just time to go because 30 to 90 minutes to fall asleep. Yeah, it's definitely he's just not quite ready for it. Awesome. I think that's great advice. Laura, do you want to read out Kate's question?
Dr Laura (45:23)
Yeah, so Kate has a question about feeding her four month old overnight. She's breastfeeding and feeds around three hourly overnight. But she notes that in some Bell, we suggest that if the baby wakes within an hour of the next feed to offer the feed. So Kate's baby is often waking after two hours. So she offers the feed that this means she's feeding quite a lot overnight. And she's keen to reduce the night wakes and get some longer stretches of sleep, which is perfectly reasonable.
So Kate wonders if they should start by stretching the first feed out to between three to four hours. She also notes that after night feeds, her baby is super drowsy and difficult to wake, so he isn't self settling during the night. what do reckon, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (45:53)
Mm.
Yeah, I think Kate is very smart and she's on the right track. I would start with that first feed of the night and stretching it out to three or four hours. You're spot on Kate. Earlier in the night, sleep pressure should be at its sort of highest point. So it's easier to resettle without a feed earlier on in the night.
Dr Laura (46:21)
Yeah.
Mm
Dr Fallon (46:30)
Two hourly feeds at four months. Look, it's unlikely that that's needed unless you had a baby who's really falling behind in weight gaining. You've been advised otherwise. Your baby should be able to stretch out a bit longer than that.
Dr Laura (46:39)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (46:43)
so yeah, I would start with that first feed of the night and then you might find that then the next feed you're like, okay, we're to wait three or four hours for this one. You can do it very gradually and see how your baby is going. Obviously some families would be like, no, no way. I'm like, you don't have to change this. We're just really talking to Kate on this one and any other parents who, are keen to reduce those night feeds, because I would say four months of age, one or two feeds is totally reasonable. if we're getting lots more than, than two, generally
Dr Laura (46:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (47:13)
You know, it can be reduced. And the reason why that can be important is that we don't want to get stuck in a reverse cycling pattern where a baby is taking heaps of calories overnight and then hardly any during the day, because their nights will just continue to be really fragmented. so yeah.
Dr Laura (47:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (47:29)
absolutely you're on the right track Kate, stretch out the time between feeds a little bit. And then with him being super drowsy and difficult to wake, so he's not self settling during the night. So somewhere between four and five months of age, all babies hit that point where they start to be really bothered if they fall asleep feeding and then wake up and you're not there anymore. So I would, you know, it's totally personal decision when you work on this. Personally, I would say
Dr Laura (47:33)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (47:55)
Maybe it's doing a quick nappy change or finishing a feed a little bit early, just so that he's aware that he's going into his cot and he's less likely to startle. Because when parents just make a little push, something about being four months of age, if they do a push to just do all cot settles, often it's just two days and that's the only place they expect to fall asleep. They can adapt to it really quickly. So could just be a little push for a couple of nights and then you you're home and hosed.
Dr Laura (48:15)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (48:22)
Yeah, you're doing a great job, Kate. Definitely, yeah, on the right track there. Would you add anything to that one, Laura?
Dr Laura (48:27)
No, I think that sounds like great advice in terms of stopping the feed a little bit earlier. For example, say, Kate, you're feeding your four month old and those feeds overnight are, you know, he's very, very drowsy and they're lasting about, I don't know, 30 minutes, let's say. I'd be thinking about just unlatching him at 28 minutes, for example. So
That means that there's just more of a chance then that he's not going to be completely asleep. There's more chance that he will be more aware when he's going into the cot. So we're not talking about, you know, only giving him a five minute feed and then stopping. We're talking about just gradually, just when you're thinking about unlatching him a bit earlier, then we're just being reasonable with how much sooner you might unlatch him.
Dr Fallon (49:11)
Mmm.
Yeah, and he's still getting a decent feed. And that's where looking at, yeah, some babies take 30 minutes to feed, others take five minutes to feed, and they both get the same amount. So think about what your average is, and then you can gradually bring that a little bit earlier. Yeah, awesome idea. We've got a question here from Claire. Actually, there's a few questions here. It's a bit of a meaty one. Claire is having trouble getting her 12 month old into a consistent routine.
Dr Laura (49:21)
getting a decent feed, yeah.
Mm. Yes.
Hmm. Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (49:46)
She explains that his average sleep duration is around about the 12 hour mark. He goes to bed at around 8 to 8 30 p.m. And wakes for the day at 6 30 to 7 a.m. He usually goes to sleep in his cot and sometimes this is quick but other times it can take a while and he gets upset. At night she breastfeeds him if he wakes and puts him back down awake and he resettles himself.
Dr Laura (49:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Great.
Dr Fallon (50:10)
Sometimes he sleeps through the night and other times he wakes four or five times. So very variable. She says at about nine months he started wanting longer wake windows and really fighting naps and bedtime. And sometimes his first nap would be so late I couldn't fit a second one in. So he dropped to one nap quite early. But Claire says he's sort of been wobbling between one and two naps ever since. And it's meant that his bedtime and wake up time haven't been consistent at all.
Dr Laura (50:15)
Mm. Mm.
Mm.
Hmm.
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (50:40)
She says, recently he did a full week of consistently just having the one nap of between one and a half to two hours duration. He did really well to start with, but by the end of the week he was so tired and cranky. It took him a couple of days to catch up on sleep. And then once he caught up on sleep, he started fighting naps and bedtime again. So Claire would like to know, maybe we just go through these one at a time.
Dr Laura (50:58)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (51:04)
First up, she says, what's our advice regarding the schedule? Should she stick with one nap or go back to two naps? Are there changes that she can make to the one nap schedule to help her son cope better, like a longer nap or a different awake window?
Dr Laura (51:17)
Hmm. Claire, I would be recommending that you go back to the one nap, I think. He's 12 months old. He was showing signs very early that he could manage long wake windows. yeah, would be given that he's been showing those signs for long time, sticking to the one nap. And
Dr Fallon (51:24)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (51:42)
thinking about establishing a wake up time in the morning. So you're saying that he wakes somewhere between 6.30 and seven. I'll probably be looking at one of those and probably taking the earlier one. So 6.30 is the time that you wake him every morning. That starts to help the rest of the day fall into a really predictable rhythm. He'll be building up sleep pressure to a similar level before his nap each day and then before he goes to sleep at night.
When there is sometimes a bit of variability in that wake up time, it just means that the nap sometimes, know, the sleep pressure isn't always hitting the same point at nap time and at bedtime. Adding in a bit of variability in the nap duration, which is sometimes between an hour and a half and two hours. So then we've got a half hour variation when the day starts, we've got a half hour variation on how long the nap is.
in the middle of the day. And then we've also got a half hour variation in the start of the night. So that's all beginning to add up and probably has a lot to do with why sometimes he can sleep through and other times he's waking up four or five times a night. I think moving to the one nap schedule, having a set wake up and bedtime initially for the first week that's, you know, perhaps within 15 minutes.
Dr Fallon (52:46)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (53:10)
So it might be between 8.15 and 8.30, for example, is probably going to be a really good port of call. What do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (53:21)
I would just say that if you do this again, like it's every chance after a week he would have adjusted and he won't be so tired just because he's a little bit older. That can all come together really quick. If at the end of a week you're like, he's really, really tired. Then I would be thinking, don't add a nap back in, but make that night maybe 30 minutes longer and just test that out for a full week. So you add in extra 30 minutes of opportunity.
Dr Laura (53:29)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (53:45)
hold everything really steady like that for a full week and by the end of that week then you know, actually that made the night's turn really bad or he coped really well with that, his nights are still great and his mood's fine but I would add it to the night rather than adding it to the day because there's so many signs he's ready just for the one nap. Claire also asked Laura, is the only way to eliminate night wakings to stop breastfeeding overnight or will he naturally start sleeping through eventually?
Dr Laura (53:55)
Yep.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (54:14)
Million dollar question. Come on, what's the answer?
Dr Laura (54:15)
It is!
Look, sometimes there are some babies that will feed back to sleep overnight and it's not a big deal. They do it once and they're still they're having lovely long stretches either side of that. And parents are fine with it. They're fine with it. They're coping well. For other babies, for many other babies, that is not the case.
Dr Fallon (54:41)
think in Claire's case, he doesn't feed back to sleep overnight though. So I think her question is around, does she have to get rid of the overnight feeds to have him sleeping through or would he just not want night feeds at some point in future?
Dr Laura (54:49)
I see.
Yes. Okay. All right. Good. So it's not a feed to sleep association. Yeah. Okay. So it's just, he knows that he can have some feeds overnight and probably quite likes them. So look at 12 months of age, it would be appropriate for him to go all night without a feed. Lots of babies do just drop it naturally on their own, but others just simply won't.
Dr Fallon (55:00)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (55:23)
And if you've decided enough is enough that you don't want to be offering those feeds overnight anymore because he's eating really well during the day, then you might have to force the issue and say from tonight, I'm no longer, I'm going to offer any feeds overnight, give him a sip of water instead when he wakes and just know that he'll probably push back. And it normally takes about two nights for a baby to learn that there's no more feeds overnight.
Dr Fallon (55:24)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. And some parents will say, I have to feed overnight because they're really not doing so great on solids, but you've got to change your thinking around because while they're being offered night feeds, they're often just not that interested in solid foods. So if you spoke to a dietitian, they would likely say stop feeding overnight because we need to increase, yeah, how, how interested they are in solids. So yeah, do keep that in mind. if they're not eating a lot of solid food, it's really important that they do. So do start to reduce the night feeds in that instance.
Dr Laura (56:16)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (56:19)
and Claire had a question around how important the consistency is in the nap timing, like, can it be pushed around a bit if we're going out or doing something? Look, I would say just generally, yes, it's, it's okay. Don't move it massively, but a bit of tweaking here and there, especially when they're on one nap. yeah, that's totally fine. yeah, good luck, Claire. Hope it all goes well. And if you need a hand, of course, reach out for a coaching call. We can always take a closer look.
Dr Laura (56:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
So Emily has emailed and she says when her baby was four months old, she implemented the quick fade approach to move away from contact naps. It worked really well. And she got to a point where she would self settle and rarely needs any pats or humming. So that's great. Well done, Emily. Emily goes on to say, if she wakes overnight, she resettles herself. Great. She's now eight months old. Emily says at times, especially in a different house or on holidays,
Dr Fallon (57:00)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (57:12)
She will wake a couple of times just before bedtime. She will wake a couple of times just after bedtime. Gosh, sorry. I'm having, I need a coffee. I thought that does not make sense. But just after bedtime or will wake very upset after a 25 minute nap. The original cot settling approach does not work anymore. Patting her makes her escalate. Picking her up makes her scream.
Dr Fallon (57:19)
Hehehehehe
Dr Laura (57:41)
and humming is touch and go. It seems like feeding her until calm or leaving her to cry are the only options which we don't love. Given she very rarely wakes, I feel like we have no ammo left for settling when she does. What do we do when she wakes upset if our original approach is not working? Do I need to implement another tool like a comforter or lovey to settle?
Dr Fallon (58:11)
Great question. So a comforter or a lovey could be a great thing to introduce at this age. Sometimes it really helps. And then when you do sleep somewhere else and you're on holiday, you take it with you and it's something close and familiar and they're all fine.
I would say for the occasions when you're on holidays or away somewhere, feeding her until she's calm is probably just a nice thing to do for her because it is harder to fall asleep somewhere unfamiliar. She's probably thinking, my mom and dad's still going to be around if I wake. There might be some more uncertainty there. So it would be fine to do that. But I hear you. I see families like this who use a really gradual approach. It works. And then if there's an occasional night waking, they're like, what do we even do? Because padding and humming all the way to sleep is way too much interaction for my baby.
Dr Laura (58:34)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (58:54)
It just wakes them up and they get cranky and they don't know what the heck we're doing. But yeah, you don't want to just not do anything. I typically say this is when I would pull out the steps to the supported accelerated approach and just show them that you're still around with supported accelerated. You could be popping in there every minute or two to give some, it might just be a brief touch. It might not even be, you know, several pats. It might just be a little forward stroke and saying,
Dr Laura (58:58)
Yes!
Dr Fallon (59:20)
you know, good night darling, it's time for sleep and then wandering away. So your baby's used to self settling. So you don't want to be right up in their face because you're right. It just makes them cranky and annoyed. They're like get away, I don't need you here. But they do need these little touch points just to know you're still around and things are okay. So that's the approach that I would opt for. Would you say similar Laura?
Dr Laura (59:26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Hmm.
Yeah, I would would have said exactly the same. So, yep, do what she said, Emily. And yeah, and then you can enjoy those weekends away or the holidays away where you're in a new place. And you've got some tools to support your little one when she does wake up.
Dr Fallon (59:42)
Yeah
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely. all these amazing parents. They're just phenomenal. You're all just doing such an awesome job. All right. So to close off this episode, I just want to say thank you actually to everyone following us on social media. Some people will laugh at this, but we are super excited that we have 6,000 Instagram followers now, which I know other people have like, I don't know, a million or something. but we're excited because we know that
Dr Laura (1:00:16)
Ha
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:00:23)
Those 6,000 people are people that believe in us and love what we're doing and find our information helpful. And it's such a beautiful little community. I love it. So if you see a post from us and it resonates with you, please give it a like, share it with friends and family so that we can keep building that community of like-minded people.
Dr Laura (1:00:38)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:00:41)
If you're struggling with sleep and settling, please join Sunbell. It works so damn well. We just can't believe these amazing results that we're seeing in families. We love seeing all these amazing sleep diaries before and afters. We need to put more of those on our social media actually. It's a fantastic program. Would love to welcome you as a member. If you are a member, course, submit your questions. We could be answering them next week. If you're having difficulties, you can book a coaching call.
Dr Laura (1:00:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:01:09)
We've both got some slots available this week and next week, so you can be talking to us one-on-one. We can help you troubleshoot what's going on. It's very valuable for families to have that one-on-one time. And please rate us and review us. So hit the subscribe button on whatever app you're listening on. Leave us a review. Write something lovely about us. You'll make our day. Yeah. And make sure you're following along on the socials as well.
Dr Laura (1:01:30)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:01:35)
So thanks everyone for tuning in and will we be back next week? Laura, there's a public holiday on the Tuesday. I'm so tempted to take a week off.
Dr Laura (1:01:43)
yeah. Yeah, there is. think we'll think about it. I've got the got the Yeah, I've got the kids home from school as well. Because, yeah, schools are shut on Monday, aren't they? Because of the Tuesday. Yeah, we'll give it some thought. But if you do have questions there, and we don't record a podcast, we'll send you some hints and tips just as a reply so that you don't have to wait too long for two weeks before our next podcast episode.
Dr Fallon (1:01:44)
Maybe we'll think about that. Do we have a break? Come back refreshed.
Yeah, me too.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (1:02:10)
But if you don't hear from us, just know that it's because we are wrangling children on a curriculum day.
Dr Fallon (1:02:11)
Mmm.
Yep. We're, we're living this every day. and you know what I want to point out as well is that we, how little podcast is ranking so well in the parenting charts. We are bobbing around somewhere between about 12th and 20 something place, but we're often the highest ranked, podcast about children's sleep in Australia, which is so amazing. So thank you everyone who listens. It means the world to us. yeah.
Dr Laura (1:02:20)
Yep.
Yeah, and you know what struck me this weekend, Fallon, is that on Facebook, I'm a member of lots of the kind of parenting Facebook groups, just as a parent myself, which is how I joined a lot of them a long time ago, even before we started Sombelle. And, you know, I often see parents posting questions, my baby won't sleep, what should I do? And I
Dr Fallon (1:02:53)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (1:03:09)
you know, we have often said we're not particularly business minded, we're trying, we're trying really hard. And I look and I think, should I post, should I say, join Sombelle? So I will try. But anyone who's listening, who's also a member of those Facebook parent groups, if you do see
Dr Fallon (1:03:15)
Hahaha
Yes Laura, yes! Do it!
Dr Laura (1:03:35)
people reaching out and you can see the nonsense in the replies that they're getting.
Dr Fallon (1:03:41)
my gosh. And there's always some really real shockers. I love you off in joke Laura that they all start with something along the lines of, Hey, mama bear. Your baby just needs to feed 17 times per night.
Dr Laura (1:03:44)
Ugh.
Yeah, so it's normal.
just do it. This is why you had children. And it drives me mad. So if you are seeing those posts, and you are feeling brave, do suggest to those other parents to join Sombelle, listen to our podcast, or come and see us in the clinic, particularly when you've benefited from it, I think sharing knowledge and
Dr Fallon (1:03:59)
y'all can't really guilt the shame.
Dr Laura (1:04:23)
and experience is really valuable in this really challenging world that new parents are living in at the moment.
Dr Fallon (1:04:32)
Yeah, 100 % on that note, thanks for tuning in everyone and we'll see maybe next week or the one after depending on our children.
Dr Laura (1:04:39)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
