Dr Fallon (00:02)
Does this sound familiar? Your baby or toddler wakes in the night and you drag yourself out of bed exhausted to tend to their needs. But by the time you've got them back to sleep and you finally climb back into your bed, you're wide awake. In the middle of the night, it's easy to begin worrying about anything and everything. Before you know it, your heart rate is up. You're replaying every embarrassing thing that you ever did.
or you're doubting your life choices and you might lie there for ages trying to fall back asleep. Well, in this episode, we're going to give you our best tips for protecting your own sleep from middle of the night rumination or what some call barbed wire thinking. Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle pediatric sleep programs created by us.
I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. We are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, it's been a couple of weeks. How did you enjoy having a little bit of downtime?
Dr Laura (01:13)
Yeah, it was really nice to have a little bit of downtime. Of course, because I am not into sport in any way. I had totally forgotten that it was Melbourne Cup Day last week. So I actually saw families who were outside of Victoria because I had inadvertently left my calendar open. I didn't have the rubbish when it comes to sport. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (01:21)
Hahaha
Hahaha!
We do this all the time, don't we? Like we just forget about public holidays. Yeah. And then families contact us like, are you actually seeing clients? And we're like, God, we did it again.
Dr Laura (01:42)
Yeah, done it again. So anyway, I did have the one day off, which was nice. We didn't record the podcast last week. But then the the actual public holiday, I saw families but anyway, they were delighted that I was working. How about you, Fallon? How was your time?
Dr Fallon (01:46)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hehehehehe
Yeah, it was good. just completely like, I took the full four day weekend and I just totally sort of relaxed into it. And by the time I came back on Wednesday, it was one of those moments of what do I do again? How do I do this? You know, I had just gone so far away from work. We've been renovating. we were painting and yeah, managing the house and the animals and all the usual things. but it was really nice to take that break.
Dr Laura (02:17)
you
Yeah, how are the ducks?
Dr Fallon (02:29)
The ducks are awesome. They're so good. I think they're keeping me sane actually for all the horrid things that are going on in the world at the moment. It has been almost like therapy just to go and sit out there and see how delighted these cute little animals are at just the most simple things. They have never heard of what an election is. They know nothing of the troubles of the world.
Dr Laura (02:42)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:57)
And all I have to do is go out there with a bowl of peas and it is the best day of their life. And it's so, it's very grounding. just makes you just go, yeah, we can just focus on the simple things and yeah, I, it's been so good. So.
Dr Laura (03:06)
Yes.
Yeah, I really enjoyed. I enjoyed them vicariously the other day when you and I were on a phone call. was like, what is that sound? Sounds like you're at the zoo. And you were like, I'm just giving some peas to the ducks. They're quacking away.
Dr Fallon (03:21)
You
And they get so excited. Yeah. They quack like so furiously. I don't know if they're excited or if they're basically just saying, hurry up. I don't they're happy to see me or just like, you long enough. Yeah. So I know that that has been really awesome. And yeah, just so nice to have a bit of a break. So thank you everyone for your patience waiting on this episode.
Dr Laura (03:43)
Yeah, chuck them, give them here.
Dr Fallon (03:56)
I noticed, a bit of an increase in the listens for our old episodes, which is great. It means you guys were going and listening to some old ones. Maybe you hadn't heard before. which is really, really great. and so the topic of today's episode actually was suggested to me in an appointment, by it was in one of our coaching calls with one of our Sombelle members, who just said, what about parents sleep? Like, can you talk a bit about what we can do?
Dr Laura (04:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (04:26)
And I was like, yes, that is such a good idea for an episode. And I was thinking, what is it about parents sleep that I'm most commonly hear, is a problem. And it always comes down to, and I don't know if you hear this too, Laura, but it's that, you know, you get up to the baby or the toddler in the night, you know, you're tired, but by the time you get back into your bed, suddenly your brain is switched on and you're thinking and thinking, and it's in the middle of the night. There's no other distraction from that.
Dr Laura (04:34)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (04:55)
kind of negative thinking, the worrying, the ruminating. And I was reading something online where someone had suggested, you know, it's barbed wire thinking because it's painful and you feel caught in it and it's hard to get out of. Do you get families reporting that to you, Laura?
Dr Laura (04:56)
Mm. Yep.
Yes. Yeah, definitely. particularly the families who come in looking absolutely exhausted. they will, you know, they potentially have their child has a similar sleep diary as a family who had seen an hour beforehand, but the parents are struggling so much more. And often it is
because the parents then describe that although it might only be three wakes a night or four wakes a night, for example, and only in inverted commas, but the parents are then finding that they simply cannot switch off once they get back into bed and once they've resettled their baby. And then they're lying there thinking, well, I've only got about another hour now before they wake up again.
And they're just having this really intense physical reaction to their negative thinking. And then they're starting to worry that now they're not going to be able to go to sleep before the baby or toddler wakes up again. And so these families are not then having, or the parents aren't having any stretches of sleep themselves overnight. And so they are really struggling and I feel so bad.
Dr Fallon (06:04)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (06:33)
for them when they're describing that they've been in this situation for such a long time. And it is really taking a significant toll on their mental health.
Dr Fallon (06:38)
Hmm.
Yeah. And one of the key interrupters of adult sleep is when you have a big life change, like if something pretty major is happening in your life, maybe you're going to be moving house or you're going through a relationship breakdown or you had a baby. It's another really good one. When you're having these big life changes, you're much more likely to wake at night. And that's when your brain is like, right, we've, we've got nothing else on at the moment. Things are pretty quiet.
Dr Laura (06:57)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:08)
let's start to question, you know, should we really have had a baby now or should we have waited another, like all these useless, know, useless thoughts. typically this kind of worrying and rumination is really unproductive. Like people aren't saying, well, I woke up at 2am and I really thought about whether we should move house and I've changed my mind or I've come up with a new plan. It's usually just this cycle and it's really hard to break. And I've, I've experienced that myself at various times if life was a bit stressful. yeah. And it's.
Dr Laura (07:15)
Yes. Yeah.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (07:38)
I will lie there and I'll be like, just stop thinking, stop thinking about this. It's not helping. but that's, you know, telling yourself to stop isn't really that effective either. so let's talk through some strategies that you can use if you, might have recurrent problems with this kind of rumination overnight, but even if you've never had, any difficulty with falling back asleep after you've tended to your little ones in the night.
Dr Laura (07:43)
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (08:04)
It's really helpful to have a couple of skills up his sleeve, things that you can try if you do have an episode like that. One of the ones I, this is what I tend to do now and it can be quite powerful. It's an approach called cognitive refocusing. So this is where rather than just telling your brain, stop thinking about that thing that's causing distress. You're giving it something else to do that prevents you from being able to think about the negative thing.
Dr Laura (08:11)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (08:33)
There's lots of different things you could come up with for this one, but I think a really, a popular one is to just think about a movie that you really like or a movie that you recently saw and make yourself think through in your mind, everything that happened in the plot of that movie, you who were the characters? Do you remember their names? What was their backstory? How did the, you know, the kind of, climax of the movie come about? What order did things happen? If you start trying to plot that out in your head and every now and then you'll go back to thinking about, you know,
the mortgage stress you're under or whatever the other thing is. But, that's okay, that's normal, but you'll redirect your thinking back to that movie again. It's going to help break that cycle. Your brain is then doing something that's actually not terribly interesting, but importantly, it's not causing arousal. It's not making your heart rate increase. You're not getting a dose of the stress hormones that are going to make it really hard to fall back asleep. And I know like some other ones can be just things like thinking through the steps of a recipe that you like to cook.
Dr Laura (09:06)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, a favourite recipe that we're coming into the Christmas season now. So if you make shortbreads or you make Christmas puddings, that it might be as you're lying in bed, think about the recipe for that Christmas pudding. Not if it's going to cause you stress, if you've realised that you haven't left enough time to let it or the fruit soak or whatever, whatever it is. But yeah, thinking through that recipe for
Dr Fallon (09:32)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah
Dr Laura (09:59)
your parents' favourite goulash for example. Or if you're not into cooking it might be the times tables. If you're a bit of a number nerd you might like doing your times tables or you could do your 12 times tables backwards or you could be counting backwards from say no by 7 from 996 or just something really boring that kind of hooks you a little bit.
Dr Fallon (10:12)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (10:28)
but isn't so exciting that it's going to get you cognitively aroused.
Dr Fallon (10:35)
Yeah. Yeah. That's really the crux of it. I think it's so powerful. I even use a similar technique if I'm having a medical procedure and I'm scared about it. Like if I'm about to have an over the thing on the back of my head, they were going to put the local anesthetic in, which is really painful for like a few seconds. And I was like, okay, 97 minus six would be 91. I started working back in my head. yeah. So it's, it's a useful one.
Dr Laura (10:43)
Mmm.
Yes!
Dr Fallon (11:02)
The other approach that I, I love this approach. I actually use this with my kids when they say, can't sleep. I can't fall asleep. it's one called paradoxical intention and it's a bit of a weird one, but I love it. It's so good. So basically the idea is that you don't try to go to sleep because the, you know, with sleep, you can't force it. You can't make yourself fall asleep. It's actually a process of just cognitively letting go and then sleep comes.
Dr Laura (11:14)
Yeah, I love it. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (11:31)
So I know my kids will lie there and they're like, I'm trying to sleep. I've got my eyes closed. I'm trying to fall. And I'll just say to them, just close your eyes and lie there quietly and try not to fall asleep. Don't try to fall asleep at all. Like see how long you can stay awake, but you've got to have your eyes closed and you've got to lie really still. See how long you can stay awake for. And then within minutes of silence, because they're no longer trying to fall asleep. They're actually thinking, I wonder how long I can lie here without falling asleep.
Dr Laura (11:53)
Yes!
Yes, it's such a good one that it is paradoxical to be trying not to fall asleep in order to fall asleep. I used it the other night, actually, Fallon, and I was, I think I've mentioned before on this podcast, I tend to listen to podcasts as I fall asleep. And I find some quite boring ones, they're interesting enough that I don't get annoyed. So there might be some ancient history ones or there's some
Dr Fallon (12:01)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (12:27)
genomic medicine ones that I might listen to. Yes. Yeah, it is. Yes. But then what I was, I was listening to on the other night, so I was doing that cognitive refocusing, but then I was finding that I was worrying. was thinking, I've been awake for too long. I've been awake for too long. And so then I thought, no, I'm going to do that paradoxical intention. And I'm now going to try and really focus on what the
Dr Fallon (12:29)
So that's kind of like a form of cognitive refocusing, isn't it? Like it's, yeah, not arousing, but it's, yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (12:56)
podcaster is saying about whatever it was, ancient Rome. And I very quickly fell asleep. And it was only the next day where I thought, I'm just going to listen to that podcast again, that I realized I had fallen asleep within about five minutes. But I would have thought if you'd asked me how long it taken me to fall asleep from the point that I had said to myself, I'm going to try not to fall asleep, I probably still would have told you it was about half an hour.
Dr Fallon (13:00)
You
Hmm
Dr Laura (13:24)
But when I went back and listened to the podcast, I thought I actually couldn't remember anything from about five minutes onwards. So I had it's just very, very effective if your sleep pressure is high enough. It's a very effective way of making you fall asleep, even when you think there's no way I'm going to be able to do this. Soon as you try and stop yourself from doing it, bang.
Dr Fallon (13:31)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes. And I think what you've pointed out there to Laura is that it's really important not to be watching the clock and going, I've only got three hours until I've got to get up. I'm going to feel terrible tomorrow. If you're watching the clock and kind of going, this is taking me too long to fall asleep. You're getting more stressed and that's kind of, you know, kind of productive with sleep. so if you are watching the clock, although it's not 1989 anymore, you probably don't have a bedside clock, but if you're looking at your phone, you know, going, you know, the time sticking on.
Dr Laura (14:02)
Yeah. Yes.
Dr Fallon (14:16)
Just don't, you don't need to know what time it is. Your alarm will go off in the morning when it's time to get up. So yeah, try and avoid looking at that. Don't do the maths on how much sleep you've got, know, or sleep opportunity you've got until morning.
Dr Laura (14:22)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (14:28)
Yeah. So hopefully those two strategies, I think they're the ones that you and I would tend to draw on the most if we're having trouble sleeping, Laura. and I think for a lot of families, that is enough. You know, it's just having those couple of skills up your sleeve, gets you through a couple of tricky wakes and then you're fine. But if you are having really persistent problems, and you think, maybe I'm developing insomnia because this is happening all the time.
Dr Laura (14:36)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:53)
have a talk to your GP and find a psychologist who works specifically with adults with sleep disorders, because it is very treatable. and it's actually more effectively treated with, what we call cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. It is more effective than sleeping pills, sleeping pills. yeah, don't, aren't a good long-term solution anyway. so yeah, do talk to your GP about who's an appropriate referral for help with that.
Dr Laura (15:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Now, I just want to add that those points that we, the two strategies we've just talked through, the cognitive refocusing and paradoxical intentions are evidence-based as well. So it's not just Fallon and I saying these are two random things that we do. So Fallon and I are both trained in treating adult insomnia as well, but we simply don't have enough hours in the day to do adults as well. But these are, we've just picked out a couple of relatively straightforward strategies.
Dr Fallon (15:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (15:48)
that you might be able to draw upon in the middle of the night between those settles with your baby and toddler. But yeah, definitely if you are struggling, particularly once your baby or toddler's sleep is under control and you're really struggling to get your sleep under control, then do as Fallon suggests, speak to your GP, get a referral to somebody who specialises in adult sleep.
Dr Fallon (15:49)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (16:16)
and there are evidence-based ways to get your sleeping back on track too.
Dr Fallon (16:21)
Hmm. It's never too late. Isn't it interesting how many people think that when you know, you've got it, even by the time they're a toddler, that's it. If the sleep's terrible, is this going to be terrible forever? But no, I mean, you can treat sleep disorders at any age and you should treat them because, if you've got insomnia, you know, it's hanging around, not resolving, it's going to flow into so many different aspects of your health and wellbeing. and yeah, you've got to look after yourself for sure. Well, we have got.
Dr Laura (16:31)
No.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (16:48)
So many parent questions to get through Laura. my goodness. There are a lot. I just want to remind parents too, when you send in a question, if you, if you type it out and you go, gosh, this is getting pretty long. Please go back through it and see if you can just trim it down to the shortest possible, just so that we can answer everyone's questions. I am a bit worried. We're going to get to a point. So we're getting so many new members, which is amazing. I don't want to get to a point where.
Dr Laura (16:51)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:17)
we can only answer sort of, me, only answer one question from each parent. You know, I know that some parents need to ask multiple questions. so please, yeah, keep them as short as you can so we can answer as many as we can. but here we go. Are you ready, Laura? Do some stretches. Let's dive in. Yes. All right. So first up we have Youlin who's written into the podcast again.
Dr Laura (17:30)
Yeah.
Yes, let's go. More energy, more passion. Yeah, let's go.
Dr Fallon (17:46)
she has a baby girl who's eight and a half months old, who is mostly not feeding overnight anymore, except for the odd 6.30 AM feed, before she returns to sleep for another hour or so. She has a 13 hour sleep need and, and you, describes a daily rhythm that fits closely with that. But she does mention that the wake up time can vary depending on whether she's had that 6.30 AM feed or not.
Dr Laura (18:12)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (18:13)
so Youlin has a few questions. The first one is, she wanted to confirm if she caps the day sleep at two hours total and six to 11 hours overnight, will the occasional 6 30 AM wake up to feed start to disappear?
Dr Laura (18:29)
yeah, I would say so most probably. If you're sticking with set bedtime and wake ups and you do that for around about a week, then yeah, in all likelihood, those early wake ups will reduce.
Dr Fallon (18:45)
Yeah, Youlin also wonders if she can keep doing the 6.30am feed in order to keep her daily rhythm on track because 6.30am feels a little too early for her daughter to be waking for the day. So is it okay to just do this on occasion?
Dr Laura (18:59)
Yeah, of course. Youlin, you're the best person to judge what's right for your baby. And if you're happy to do those feeds on occasion, and it doesn't appear to become a habit for your baby, and then that feed starts to get earlier and earlier and it's every day. If it's only occasional, it's working well for you, then of course you carry on doing that.
Dr Fallon (19:24)
Yeah, I agree. Youlin also asks, when she is feeling ready to drop that final feed, what's the best approach? Cause she feels like going cold Turkey, seems too hard.
Dr Laura (19:36)
Yeah, okay. Well, Youlin, again, if cold turkey does feel too hard, then of course you don't need to do that. And no one should ask you to do anything that you are not willing to do. when you are ready to drop the final feed, if your daughter hasn't done it herself and you are needing to kind of force the issue, then I would be thinking about doing a bit of a milk reduction program. So
What that would look like is if it's a breastfeed, thinking about how long that feed is lasting and just unlatching her about a minute or so depending on how long the feed is a minute or so earlier every three mornings or so. If it's a bottle feed, then you'd reduce the amount of milk in the bottle by a small amount every three days until eventually you get to the point where it's just
there's virtually nothing in the bottle, or you would only be latching her or having her on the breast for one minute. And at that point, you would then say, okay, she's had enough time to start to increase her calories during the day. And you can then say, that's it, no more feed when she wakes up that morning, at that time in the morning and just use your normal cot settling approach instead.
Dr Fallon (20:35)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good way to go. And I'm always curious to hear from parents. Was it actually easier to do the gradual reduction? Cause I think for a lot of babies, they're just like, what are you doing? What do you mean you're ending this feed now? Or what do you mean that's all in the bottle? You know, it's all gone. and then they just get furiously mad that they're not getting the full feed. And sometimes they actually cope better with just being resettled, rather than offering a feed at all. So.
Dr Laura (20:58)
Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (21:17)
Yeah, every baby's different. yeah, definitely give it a shot. See how you're going. You can always change tack if you need to.
Dr Laura (21:23)
Yeah. All right. Now we had a question from Jessica and Jessica says she has a seven month old, a FOMO comfort sucker baby. Jessica says she's always have co-slept, never liked her cot. Jessica and her husband have been using the slow fade approach for three weeks now and her baby is having none of it.
Dr Fallon (21:48)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (21:48)
She will fall asleep in her dad's arms but will not transfer to the cot. She cries and gets very upset. Jessica is worried that her baby is not getting good enough quality sleep because she wakes tired and grisly. They've seen two different GPs to rule out any medical calls. that's really good to hear, Jessica. Well done. And Jessica wonders what the next steps are and if a coaching call is a good idea. What do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (22:10)
Hmm.
Yeah, I would say in these situations, a coaching call can be a really good idea. I think this is a really good example of how some approaches just aren't a great fit for some babies. A seven month old who has always co-slept, and comfort sucked to fall asleep will hate the cot.
Dr Laura (22:30)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:37)
They will not like it. It's so unfamiliar to them and it's going to take a lot of practice to get them to accept the cot as being a nice, safe, cozy place to fall asleep. So it, I think some parents are looking for an approach that their baby will enjoy and there's no such thing. They're not going, like your baby's just not going to like the cot. There are going to be some tricky settles with that adjustment. I think with the slow fade approach,
Dr Laura (22:40)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Nah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (23:05)
It's great that you've given that a red hot go Jessica. It sounds like now you're trying to get her into the cot. You're probably doing some padding and humming in the cot and she's not loving it. What I would say is make sure you have done your sleep diary. You're working on a really good daily rhythm that fits your baby's unique needs. So you know sleep pressure is high enough for your baby. I can't overstate that enough. Like it's so important. Get that right before you try cot settling again. We want nice and high sleep pressure.
Dr Laura (23:25)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:35)
every time you put her in the cot. And then I would, I would basically just say, okay, we're just cot settling from now on and give her all the hands on support she needs. So it could be padding, humming, shushing, whatever you decide to do, stick to it really predictably. Have breaks, pick her up for a cuddle every now and then, but persist with the cot settling. She's going to be really cranky, but you need to keep reminding yourself she's not frightened or worried because you are right there with her.
giving her constant hands on support and reassurance. She's just thinking, what am I doing in here? I don't like this. Get me out of here. She's having a really, really big protest. But if you're not coping with co-sleeping and you know, you're saying Jessica, she's waking up tired and grisly. It sounds like her sleep might actually be impacted by having to, she's probably wanting to wake up all the time to want to relapse and things like that. So it sounds like her sleep quality is actually suffering a little bit too.
Dr Laura (24:06)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (24:32)
you've got really good reason to stick with cot settling and just know that it might be a few really tricky settles that are challenging to persist through. But then she'll realize I'm okay here. Mom and dad are still here. you know, the cots not a scary place. My parents are right here with me and she'll adapt and then it will start to get easier. I think that that point comes at different times for different people. So I wouldn't say, you know, if Jessica said, you know what, this is not the right time for me.
Dr Laura (24:40)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (25:00)
I don't mind, you know, how things are going at the moment. then of course I would not put any pressure on her to, to change this. But I think for any family that's gone, I've had enough of this sleep quality suffering. want to make some changes. It's okay. The cot is a safe, reasonable place for a baby to sleep. and you can persist with lots of support. They will make that transition. it's not unreasonable to persist. so Jessica, would.
Dr Laura (25:17)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:27)
Only sort of last thing I would add to that is just make sure you've got that support around you. So work on the daily rhythm. Then before you move to cot settling, have the supports around you, make sure your husband's home for a few days. You might get extended family to help out. there's all sorts of things you might do. read through your approach really carefully from the Sunbell program and make sure that you're. Yeah. You sort of got all your ducks in the row and you're feeling really ready, to make that change. You're more likely to then have a smoother transition.
but it's tough, isn't it, Laura? Would you add anything to that one?
Dr Laura (25:57)
Yeah, it's really tough. No, only that it sounds like Jessica has been using Slow Fade for three weeks and then also describes that her baby still is falling asleep in dad's arms and not transferred into the cot. So that makes me wonder if Jessica, you're still on step one. Where...
Dr Fallon (26:16)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (26:24)
your baby is still falling asleep in your arms. So if you've done three weeks of just the first step, it would, and you've, and it sounds like you are ready to make a change to then look at starting to put her down into the cot before she's completely asleep going on to step two of the slow fade. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (26:43)
Hmm. Yep. Yeah. Good plan. All right. We also have a question from Maddie. We have two Maddies who've written in this week. So our first Maddie of the day has a four month old and is about to begin the quick fade approach. However, she reports that when her son hit four months of age, like clockwork, his naps and overnight sleep became horrendous.
Dr Laura (26:46)
Yeah.
gosh.
Dr Fallon (27:09)
She says, he won't settle easily, sometimes taking two hours to fall asleep. He was previously a dream. So Maddie asks, is it better to wait until he gets through this phase or dive into the quick fade approach now? And Maddie says, the internet has conflicting advice. It always does. No surprise there. Yeah.
Dr Laura (27:27)
It always does, in everything. my God. Yeah, no surprise. the benefit of being a Sombelle member is that you don't need to be going to the internet to look at conflicting pieces of advice and anecdotal advice. This Sombelle is evidence-based. So please try your best not to then be second guessing because of course you can take your...
Dr Fallon (27:43)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (27:54)
look at the advice that we give you in Sombelle and then you're going to put that into the Google search engine and there's going to be lots of people saying, yay, do it or yay, don't do it or that's wrong. But the reason you've joined Sombelle is because you wanted evidence-based advice and that's what we give you.
Dr Fallon (28:05)
Yeah
Yeah. And there, yeah. And there's so many people out there who still go on and on about regressions and like, and I'm guessing Maddie's read the stuff like about a four month regression, sleep turns bad. And some people say just wait it out. It'll get better all on its own. And I'm sure some people do have that experience, but for a lot of parents, it's not, and it sticks around and the interrupted sleep just carries on and on and on. So look in
Dr Laura (28:35)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (28:37)
Yeah, short, would say just dive in and get going on it. that what you'd say, Laura?
Dr Laura (28:39)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, your question is, should we dive in or should we wait out? So our advice is to dive in. It's your baby is simply now more cognitively aware out of the very little baby stage, his circadian rhythm system has come online. It's matured, it's continuing to mature.
There's probably been a change in the amount of time that he can stay awake for during the day because we've now got that second system on board. We've got both sleep pressure and we've got the circadian rhythm system now. The fact that it's sometimes taking him two hours to fall asleep does make me think that he's probably able now to stay awake for a bit longer during the day. So I would be just double checking his sleep needs.
Dr Fallon (29:28)
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (29:33)
And thinking about a four months old, how many naps are you offering him during a day? You know, if he's still having four or five, then I'd be looking at decreasing the number of naps because he's just a bit older now, needs a bit longer awake and two hours to fall asleep at the start of the night. It's a very long time and it will be really hard to make progress using the quick fade approach, even if you're following it to the letter.
Dr Fallon (29:53)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:02)
if his sleep pressure isn't high enough. So definitely double check that, Maddie.
Dr Fallon (30:05)
Yes. I feel like it's so often the case that babies have that drop in total sleep requirement at around about that four or five month mark, right when babies are reaching the point of being startled if they wake up somewhere different from where they fell asleep. So yeah, it can be a wicked combination. Suddenly a baby's got low sleep pressure and they're wanting lots of support to fall asleep and lots of support when they wake overnight. yes, I agree. Start with a sleep diary and then.
Dr Laura (30:25)
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (30:34)
you've got that daily rhythm right dive right in.
Dr Laura (30:37)
All right and we have a question from Angela. Now Angela has a 20 month old son who used to have a high sleep need of 13 to 14 hours but this has recently dropped to around 12 hours. At daycare he naps at 11.30 for an hour and a half or more but at home he is grumpy by 9.30 and it's hard to get him to even 11am for his nap.
This means he's awake by 12.30. Angela has a few questions. So we're just going to go through these one at a time, think, Fallon. OK, so Angela's first question is, is it normal for sleep needs to drop this much in just a few weeks?
Dr Fallon (31:11)
Yep.
Yeah, it really can be. some babies drop a day nap, but they add it to their nights and others just drop a day nap and that, you know, hour or two just disappears. And we never know exactly which way they're going to go. but yeah, it's normal and it's very likely not anything to be worried about.
Dr Laura (31:28)
Yes.
No.
Angela's next question is should she offer a power nap in the morning to help him make it to his lunchtime nap? That's a really interesting question isn't it Fallon and I do sometimes hear that from other families. What do you think?
Dr Fallon (31:46)
Mmm.
Yeah. Look, I would say given he's 20 months old, no, because, you're essentially introducing a second nap and he's just much, much too old for that.
I would instead plan on pushing him through plan lots of distractions. The reason he can stay awake longer at childcare is because there's so much to do. Like so much engagement, so much stimulation. it might be that you find for a few weeks, you really have to work hard to keep him busy and entertained and plan activities to get him through to lunchtime. And then it'll start to stick and you'll start to find actually he can power through to it a little bit more easily now.
Dr Laura (32:13)
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (32:32)
yeah, so I would tend to do that rather than offering a power nap in the morning.
Dr Laura (32:37)
Yeah. Angela's next question is, if my baby naps for two hours, then he only does 10 hours overnight. Angela would like a 6am wake up and she asked, does this mean he needs to go to bed at eight?
Dr Fallon (32:54)
Yeah, well, I mean, that kind of works out to that 12 hour sleep needs. So potentially to get him through to six, he might actually have to go to bed at 8pm. You know, I would start at that point perhaps. And often that's what I'll say to families is look, let's start at that point. Well, let's do 8pm to 6am, do it for a few weeks. And if nights are beautiful and moods good and everything's fine,
Dr Laura (32:59)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (33:18)
great, it works well. But if it's not, then you can trial a 7.30 PM bed time and see if he makes it through to six. And if he's not, you can kind of adjust things a little bit depending on how he's going, or you might even decide to trim down the day nap a little bit to make that night a little bit longer.
Dr Laura (33:33)
Yeah, I wondered actually when Angela says if he naps for two hours, then he'll have the 10 hours overnight. But looking at her preamble, she says that at daycare often it's one and a half hours or more. So I would be thinking Angela, if he's more often than not having an hour and a half for his naps, then I would be making that the standard. And then you'd be able to pop him to bed a bit earlier because
Dr Fallon (33:40)
Thank
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (34:00)
then it's just an hour and a half as standard for his daytime nap. And he's got that half an hour extra overnight. Angela's final question is, should she be worried about overtiredness? I'm just going to jump in right now. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no.
Dr Fallon (34:07)
Yeah.
No, definitely not at that age. Really only under the age of about 12 weeks, which always shocks parents because that's not what we're sold on the internet. Yeah. So definitely don't worry. The more tired he gets, the more he sleep hormones and sleep pressures building up in his system. and he might be cranky, feeling a bit weird and out of sorts because he is extra tired, but it's not going to mean that he, is more wakeful overnight.
Dr Laura (34:25)
No.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (34:43)
Yeah, good. All right, so then we have a question from Annie. Annie wrote in to say that sleep has been going really well for her 11 week old since we answered her questions on the podcast a few weeks back. Annie had some other lovely things to say which we don't have time for, but thank you, Annie. It was really lovely to get your email. Annie's question this time relates to crying.
Dr Laura (34:59)
good.
Dr Fallon (35:09)
So she describes that her baby cries a lot when put down in her cot for sleep. Annie says she's listened to our podcast episodes and really knows that her baby is fine. She knows that it's communication and some babies just cry at bedtime for no real reason. But Annie says she still finds it really difficult and wonders when it might resolve. Annie says they need to start phasing out the padding and the shushing at some stage.
Yet with her being so upset, it seems like it will be very difficult. It's hard, isn't it Laura?
Dr Laura (35:43)
it's so hard. My heart goes out to you, Annie. It really is the pits when you know full well, like you say, that your baby is safe. They're absolutely fine in their cot or their bassinet. But it is just something you can have that really visceral reaction to your baby crying. And it is hard to listen to.
Dr Fallon (36:03)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (36:08)
And so what I'd be thinking Annie is a couple of things. One is just double checking that when you're popping your baby down, your baby is actually ready to go to sleep at that point. just always in those first few months, sleep changes so rapidly that from one week to the next, it can be quite different. you know, given that your baby's so little, it may be that the last time you logged your baby's sleep was when
Dr Fallon (36:29)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (36:38)
they were eight weeks old, for example, and it could be completely different now. I'm not entirely sure how old your baby is right now. Annie may be 11 weeks or perhaps that's how old they were when they started. it's good idea always just to keep on track of the sleep needs. And that means that you're always going to be settling your baby at the time that they're ready. And
Dr Fallon (36:53)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:02)
If you're sure that that's the case, then I'd be thinking about doing some things to protect yourself. So listening to podcasts or some music whilst you're settling your baby in, in the cot, and, knowing that it will pass and it will get easier. sometimes we find that once you start to wean off the patting and the shushing that your baby, the baby's actually calmed down.
quite quickly because sometimes for some babies it's actually a bit more irritating to be having their hands on patting and they're kind of crying because they're like get off me!
Dr Fallon (37:33)
Mmm.
Isn't it interesting?
Yes, I have so many parents who say, I was busting for the loo and I thought I've just got to go to the toilet now. And I ran out and I was still upset. They hadn't settled yet. I ran off, went to the toilet and then it went quiet and they fell asleep. And those parents have discovered that actually when they move out of their baby's space, their baby's really quickly drawn their own skills for falling asleep and off they go. Whereas if they can see they're like, well, I wonder if mom might do something different or if I...
Dr Laura (37:56)
He
Yes.
Dr Fallon (38:10)
Escalate or something change. Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? I think as well, just to add to this, sometimes it can help to try a little circuit breaker. Like if you're, you know, no matter what you try any, there's always this bit of crying. Some parents will experiment by, maybe adding white noise if they haven't been using it or using a different type of white noise. Or in my case, I remember with one of mine.
Dr Laura (38:15)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (38:38)
moving away from white noise into the sounds of crickets chirping. I don't know. It was like magic, just a different sound. It could be putting on gentle music or something. Often they just stop to listen to it. Like they want to hear it. You know, it's something different. and that can be a good little circuit breaker, but you could have a bit of an experiment with. Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (38:59)
Yeah, good luck Annie. It will get easier, but we do feel for you and know that that's a hard position to be in. But it won't always be this way, Annie. So write in and let us know how you get on.
Dr Fallon (39:15)
Yeah, definitely. All right. Is it my turn to read one out? I can't even remember. Who are we up to? All right. Go for it.
Dr Laura (39:16)
we've had, I.
No, I think it's my turn. Yeah, I think I can go. So we've had a question from Cassie and Cassie says, our baby has hit 10 months and has started crawling and pulling to standing in the last month or so. Now cot settling has gotten really fun because she's constantly pulling herself up. She can be so sleepy as we put her into the cot and then the second she touches the mattress, she is so reinvigorated and wants to play. Cassie. We can tap the mattress for her for an
Dr Fallon (39:35)
You
Dr Laura (39:50)
hour and she will happily babble, shake the cot, crawl around, stand or try and play with us. We've moved to a chair away from her cot and she still does this and if we wander out of the room she gets upset. What do you suggest?
Dr Fallon (40:05)
gosh, fun times for Cassie. Every parent goes through this phase though, it will pass. The first thing I would check in on just because it's such a long amount of time awake is, I think it is, am I just imagining that Laura? Did you say it was a couple of, an hour? yes. Yeah, it is quite a long time awake. So I would be looking at that daily rhythm because sleep needs drop across that first year.
Dr Laura (40:08)
Yeah.
No, she said an hour. She can play for an hour. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (40:34)
and if she's really, you know, if when sleep pressure really peaks, you kind of can't avoid sleep. Like you're really tired. And if she was really tired enough, she would be cranky and she might pull herself to stand, but then she'd be grizzly and she'd want to lie down and you know, you just wouldn't be having this trouble. So I would check her sleep diary. You might need to adjust the daily rhythm a little bit. and that should make the settling quicker. And then we're standing up in the cot.
Dr Laura (40:56)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (41:03)
I would be thinking more along the lines of the supported accelerated approach. It can help to be using some very brief intervals, just because it can mean that you lay her down in the car, you know, say good night, go and sit on your chair. And you might set yourself a little timer. You might go, okay, I'm going to wait a minute. And if she's standing up, then I'll go over, I'll lay her down once, say good night again, and then go and sit down. So then what you're showing your child is if you stand up, I'm not going to be engaging in like, you
Dr Laura (41:25)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (41:33)
laying you back down immediately or doing, I'm not going to do anything differently. I'm going to wait a minute, lay you down once and then go sit down again. So you're really showing them that standing up doesn't change what you do. and if anything, they're thinking, this is actually really boring. Why bother standing up? Cause mom or dad's only going to eventually come over, lay me down, say good night and go again. so that the boringness of that and the repetitiveness can help them start to go, bother with this? but yeah, I would say, it's going to be that combination of
Dr Laura (41:53)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (42:03)
getting the sleep pressure right, and then just applying a really consistent approach. Just avoid, you know, leaning over the cot and constantly trying to lay them down or doing different things, or it can kick off a bit of a cycle. Would you add anything to that one, Laura?
Dr Laura (42:13)
Yeah.
No, I don't think so. I think you've covered everything. We definitely want to bring down the length of time that your baby is in the cot and not sleeping, you know, for an hour if she's babbling and crawling around and standing up and playing. That's an hour where she's learning that her cot is somewhere to play rather than just to sleep. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (42:37)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right, we have a question from our other Maddie this time. So this Maddie says, my seven month old has been sleeping through about 80 % of the time since they were about nine weeks old and only needing feeds or for us to give a little bit of support throughout the night when she's unwell. So it sounds like a pretty solid sleeper. But Maddie says,
Dr Laura (42:44)
Okay.
Hmm. Hmm.
Dr Fallon (43:05)
This is all recently taken a turn in the last couple of weeks with her night sleep being quite unpredictable. Maddie says it started with her having moments of 10 to 30 minutes, 30 minutes awake at night where she'd play with her bunnies or she'd pull herself up in the cot. But then she would resettle on her own. So she didn't sort of need any help in the night. However, now it's ranging from that sort of 10 to 30 minutes all the way
Dr Laura (43:07)
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (43:34)
up to two to three wake-ups overnight and even having split nights where she's awake for up to three hours and Maddie's having to feed or rock her just to get her back down. So that's a very big change to go from self-settling, resettling overnight to such long wake-ups. So Maddie says,
Dr Laura (43:42)
goodness.
Yeah that is. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (43:55)
She sleeps for a total of two hours across two to three naps in the day. And prior to these wakings was sleeping 10 and a half to 11 hours overnight. Maddie says bedtime is 7 PM and she's gone from waking at 6.15 AM like clockwork to waking anywhere from 5 to 5.45 AM. Maddie says I've started with my sleep diary again to get an idea of her shifting sleep needs. Excellent. That would be the first bit of advice we'd give, isn't it Laura?
Dr Laura (44:22)
Yeah, it is, yeah.
Dr Fallon (44:25)
But Maddie says, is it common around this age to notice this sort of change in sleep patterns? Any advice we have would be amazing.
Dr Laura (44:32)
Okay, Maddie, when I'm thinking through our lesson on when to drop a nap and the signs to look out for, I am thinking your seven month old is ticking quite a few of those boxes. starting to wake early for the day, starting to have more wakes overnight, having longer wakes overnight, sometimes having split nights and taking much longer to settle.
Dr Fallon (44:44)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (44:58)
So she's ticking all of those boxes. And I would say given that you described that she has two hours across two to three naps in the day, I would be looking to get that into a more consistent two naps a day. And you are then more likely to see that there's going to be a change in those overnight behaviors. We know that she can self settle and she can resettle herself.
Dr Fallon (45:13)
Mm.
Dr Laura (45:25)
And once you get that sleep pressure nice and high again, there's a good chance that she's going to be able to do it again. The split night should fall away and she should be able to make it through until a reasonable hour in the morning again. yeah, once you're sure what her sleep need is, once you've logged her sleep in the diary for a week, then you can just double check that the wake up and bedtime are reasonable.
Dr Fallon (45:40)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (45:52)
duration to match whatever her sleep needs are at the moment. Do you have anything else to add, Valen?
Dr Fallon (45:54)
Hmm. Yeah. I would only just say that she's at an age where she's going to remember those lovely feeds and rocks back to sleep in the night. So even when sleep pressure is spot on, you might find that she's still a little reluctant to give up doing those things in the night. So pick one of the Sombelle approaches. Since she was self settling, I'd probably suggest the supported accelerated approach.
Dr Laura (46:05)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (46:21)
You might have a couple of tricky resettles at first even when sleep pressure is high and that's okay. She'll get through it. She'll she'll figure out what's going on Yeah good
Dr Laura (46:25)
Mm.
Yeah.
All right, and then we have a question from Lisa. So Lisa has a 22 month old with an 11 hour sleep need. He naps for an hour at 1pm, which gives Lisa a much needed break as she has another little baby on the way. congratulations, Lisa.
Dr Fallon (46:48)
Yes, it's amazing news.
Dr Laura (46:51)
So her toddler sleeps for 10 hours overnight from around 8.30 or 9 until 7 in the morning. He's having a phase right now where he wants Lisa to stay in the room when he falls asleep, which is okay as it only takes five minutes. Lisa also adds that he has started to have some night wakes that can stretch on for one to two hours and she's had to drive him back to sleep or give him a snack to get him back to sleep at night. gosh, Lisa.
Dr Fallon (47:20)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (47:21)
When you're pregnant as well, that's no fun having to get into the car in the middle of the night. So Lisa wonders if she should trim the day nap or even drop it, but she worries how his mood will be. What do you say, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (47:25)
Yeah.
Yeah. look, I think it's a really good question, Lisa. And yeah, those are definitely split nights that you're describing. I would say, yeah, I would try trimming that nap down maybe just to one sleep cycle or around.
sort of 30 minutes or so, because you can't keep doing what you're doing. And we definitely don't want him to realize that I could actually have a snack in the middle of the night or I could go for a lovely car ride. Because at 22 months, he will remember it.
Dr Laura (47:54)
night.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (48:04)
And if they realize that these things are on the cards, I've seen sleep spin wildly out of control, especially with snacks, actually. I would just say with toddlers, never offer a snack in the middle of the night. They are not hungry. They are just looking for something to do to fill the time as they're waiting for their sleep pressure to build back up so they can get back off to sleep.
Dr Laura (48:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
No.
Dr Fallon (48:25)
so I definitely avoid the snacks. Yeah. They circadian rhythms are like ours in that when you get woken up overnight, you don't feel hungry. Your body is slowing down digestion to focus on sleep and it would be the same for your toddler as well. so yes, I would start by trimming the nap down. even though, yeah, he might not like it much at first and it is hard on you being pregnant, and getting a bit less rest. If it means that night's improved and your sleep improves at night, it's going to feel a lot more manageable.
Dr Laura (48:32)
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (48:53)
with him just on the short nap and it might be that very soon he is ready to give up his nap altogether but then you'll have wonderful nights you know hopefully every night and that should really help.
Dr Laura (48:59)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, Lisa, the only thing I would add is that if when you're dropping that snack in the middle of the night, you're getting some pushback from him, think about making sure that he is really full come bedtime and ensuring if he's still having milk at bedtime, that's great. Some parents will actually introduce a small snack straight after the bath or the shower, just so that in the night when you do say no, when he asks for a snack,
you can say to him you had your cracker or whatever it was after the bath and you've got something to pull on in to draw on in the night when when your toddler is saying I want a snack you can say you had your snack at bedtime no snacks in the night have a sip of water instead yeah
Dr Fallon (49:41)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah, yeah, good advice. And our last question is from Caitlin, who actually has several questions. So Caitlin has a six month old who recently moved to napping in the cot. Well done. That's a big move to make. But she says her baby now only naps for 30 to 40 minutes in the cot, rarely linking sleep cycles together.
Dr Laura (50:02)
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, well done.
Dr Fallon (50:21)
If she won't resettle, she will fall asleep during a feed. So she's after any suggestions on how to get a longer nap. It's a pretty common problem, isn't it? When they first start settling in their cot for naps, they're often quite short naps. But yeah, what would you suggest?
Dr Laura (50:32)
Yeah. Yeah. So I would just keep practicing. It takes time. You've just made this big change to doing naps in the cot. So it's still all very new to your baby. I would be, whichever approach you use to transition your baby to going to sleep in the cot, I would be using that when she wakes up after only a short nap, rather than feeding her back to sleep.
If you're patting, shushing, rocking briefly, actually we don't say rocking, but you know, if it's like picking her up, give her a quick cuddle and then pop her back down and then use your cot settling approach for a period of time that you're comfortable with. And that might be half an hour max, for example. And if she hasn't resettled in that time, then get her up and continue on until the next nap time. Of course, if she wakes up after 30 or 40 minutes and is full of beans, happy smiling.
Dr Fallon (51:11)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (51:31)
ready to go, don't try to resettle her. But just know that it does take time and eventually it should come together.
Dr Fallon (51:32)
Hehehe.
Yeah, absolutely. Caitlin also says when her baby has three short naps in a day, she's often a bit grumpy and tired, especially towards the end of the day, but then sleeps really well overnight. However, when she has longer sleeps during the day, she's happier, but then seems to have more disrupted nights where she might wake an extra two or three times on top of her usual feeds.
Dr Laura (51:55)
you
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (52:08)
Kaitlyn says she did her sleep diary about five weeks ago and she's now six months old. Is it possible she needs to drop a nap but have longer naps?
Dr Laura (52:17)
Yes, it's highly possible, Caitlin. So I would be logging her sleep again, like we've said for some of the earlier questions that we've answered. Certainly in the in the first year sleep needs drop a lot, but particularly in the first six months, they drop a lot. So it's over a month since you have logged your, your daughter's sleep. So log it again, to see what her sleep needs are. And at six months, it's
quite typical for babies to drop down to two naps anywhere between six and seven months. For some babies that have a really high sleep need, they might hold on to that third nap for a little bit longer. Doesn't sound like that's the case for your baby, Caitlin. So yes, in all likelihood, she's ready to move to two naps and there'd be the two longer naps rather than the three short ones.
Dr Fallon (52:52)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Yeah. And it's often easier to get a longer nap when they're consistently stretched out for two naps. That sleep drives a little stronger by the time you put them down and they're a little bit more likely to link those sleep cycles. Caitlin has one last question. She says, occasionally I have to pick my husband up from work at about 9.30 PM at night.
Dr Laura (53:17)
Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (53:30)
She does her baby's usual routine and gets her down for sleep for an hour or two prior to this before having to transfer her to the car. She mostly does okay with this. However, she seems to wake up when we arrive and then she'll often stay awake for the 30 minute drive home and about an hour after we get home. Caitlin says, this isn't ideal, but it's just our situation at the moment. Is there any way to make this less disruptive? I'm so keen to what you say Laura, because I can't think of anything.
Dr Laura (53:58)
It's so hard, Caitlin, I really feel for you that you have this situation, because none of us will enjoy going to sleep at our usual bedtimes and then having to get up an hour or so later and be transferred to the car even with a blanket. And it's then going to be quite hard for anyone to be able to go back to sleep after that, because what will have happened is that
Dr Fallon (54:00)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (54:26)
when your daughter has gone down at the start of the night, she will have had two, maybe three sleep cycles, which is when she's having her deep sleep, which will really relieve a lot of the sleep pressure. Obviously not all of it, but it's in the deep stages of sleep. That's where sleep pressure gets, you know, really the edge comes off a lot.
Dr Fallon (54:49)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (54:50)
And then when she's woken up, it's then very hard for her to go back to sleep and she's waiting for her sleep pressure to get high enough again. So that's why she can be awake for an hour and a half before she's able to go back to sleep by the time you've got home from picking your husband up. So there's the bit of science behind why it's happening. And so we can't fudge it. We can't...
Dr Fallon (55:05)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (55:19)
try and we can't overcome the biology and physiology that is at play here. things I'd be considering would be keeping it as dull and boring as possible. So she's not thinking this is lovely fun playtime with dad, for example, when you get back to the house.
Dr Fallon (55:28)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (55:49)
thinking about adding in some special play for her with her dad in the morning before he goes to work. So we're trying to get some of that. She's having that connection and fun time with dad before he goes to work rather than trying to have it in the evening when he gets home. And considering Uber or if there's any family and friends that might be able to drop your husband home rather than disrupting your baby's sleep at that
Dr Fallon (56:10)
Yeah.
Yeah
Dr Laura (56:18)
time of night. I wish I had some, something that could, a magic wand.
Dr Fallon (56:20)
Hmm.
No, I think that's good advice though. I think it's good advice to keep it boring, very dull, dim lighting. You know, it's going to help as much as we can keep that circadian rhythm in check, but I think it's a rotten time of day to have sleep interrupted because the circadian rhythm can be pretty sensitive to, because essentially for the circadian rhythm, it's going to be going, well, when is bedtime? When should I have, you know, my long deep chunk of sleep? so I just think minimize it as much as you can when you can. And that's all you can really do.
Dr Laura (56:53)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (56:55)
Yeah. Wow. We got, we did it Laura. We got through all the questions. There's so, so many, but we made it. Thank you everyone who sent in questions. Also just a note that if you're not a Sombelle member and you sent in a question, hoping we could answer it, we just don't have time. I'm sorry. We won't be able to answer questions from people who aren't members because it's hard enough fitting in everyone who is a member.
Dr Laura (57:02)
Yay.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (57:21)
so if you're having sleep troubles and you know, you've got questions, the Sombelle membership, it's, think it's incredible, good value. there's so much information in there. Most parents don't even need to submit a question to the podcast. Most of them never need a coaching call, because the program really is designed to work and to give you usable strategies that are effective. And you will find a lot of your questions are answered in the program. so if you're struggling.
Dr Laura (57:30)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (57:49)
go and check it out. There's a bit of a discount on membership at the moment. So it is a good time to join. If you're a Sombelle member and you're having a rotten time right now, maybe there's a new spanner that's been thrown in the works or you're preparing for travel or you've got something coming up and you're like, I need to have a check-in. Book in. I've got a pretty quiet week this week, actually, Laura. There's plenty of times available. So if somebody wants to have a chat with me, book in a time and we can talk through your situation.
Dr Laura (57:55)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (58:17)
please leave us a review, make it a five star one, please. but yeah, rate us, review us, subscribe to the podcast. It all really, really helps. and be sure to follow us along on social media because we are posting cool stuff all the time that parents find helpful. And if you love one of our posts, share it, like it, all that sort of stuff. It helps us to get the message out there. we've talked a bit today about all the conflicting stuff on the internet and we are trying to provide.
Dr Laura (58:20)
Yeah.
You
Dr Fallon (58:46)
really solid evidence-based information without any guilt or shame, just practical, useful information that you can use with your little ones. Yeah, so thanks everyone for tuning in and yeah, you'll hear from us again next week.
Dr Laura (58:53)
Yes.
Yes.
Just before I say my bye bye, I want to do a quick shout out to a Sombelle member who I spoke to last week, who said that one of her favourite things on a Monday is to, she has both of her children in the car for their afternoon nap. And she has a little packet of &Ms that she munches on whilst listening to our podcast. So I just want to say a shout out to you, you know who you are. And I hope that your little one's sleep is going well.
Dr Fallon (59:05)
Yeah?
You
Dr Laura (59:30)
And with that said, thanks everyone. Bye bye. We'll see you next week.
Dr Fallon (59:34)
You
