Dr Fallon (00:37)
Whether you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah, or you just enjoy a nice break from paid work over the December new year period, you might have questions about how to manage your baby or toddler's sleep. With family gatherings, changing routines, excitement, and fun, it can feel a little scary to suddenly have your little one out of routine. In today's episode, we discuss how you can keep sleep on track during the festive season.
so everyone is well rested.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle pediatric sleep programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. We are PhDs and sleep practitioners and directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, how are you going after our little weekend away?
Dr Laura (01:42)
Yeah, I'm doing really well. I've just got back home, pulled everything out of the back of the car, set everything up here after our little business weekend away doing lots of plotting and planning for the year ahead. It's just been so wonderful. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (01:56)
Yeah!
Yeah, I love it. We tend to do it sort of either every six months or sometimes it's once a year. And it's so nice because we just kind of deep dive into all the conversations and all the possibilities of like where we can take the clinics and Sombelle and what the next sort of steps are for that. And it's just, I just love it. I absolutely thrive on it. Those sort of planning discussions, but I'm so pumped for all the things I've got coming up.
Dr Laura (02:22)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:28)
You know, the children's sleep clinic is amazing. It's going to be for children four to 18 years of age. We have a new practitioner coming on board. Lovely Lauren will be joining us next year. Maybe we have to bring her on the podcast and introduce her to everyone at some point. but yeah, it's just so exciting knowing we have all these amazing things ahead. and I'm, I'm pumped for it.
Dr Laura (02:37)
Yay.
Yes.
Yeah, it is. And it's so nice. You know, as our listeners will know, we've got five children between us. And so it's normally always a juggle as many of our listeners will be living as well, but work and family. And so being able to have a couple of days where it's just us with our business hats on, a little bit of parenting hats with just texting and FaceTiming. But
Dr Fallon (03:02)
you
Yeah. My daughter doing video calls once an hour, just checking what we're doing. We're sort of not parenting. Yeah.
Dr Laura (03:20)
Yeah, that's right, me getting updated. No, that's right, I get updated PowerPoints and canvas slides for Christmas lists from my daughter.
Dr Fallon (03:31)
I love it when they're like so determined to get a certain Christmas present that they do the legwork and the research to really present their case fully. They'll probably make great lawyers one day, I reckon.
Dr Laura (03:34)
You
You
Yeah, I think so. So anyway, lovely to be away. It's nice to come back. And just when we were away and I was thinking about going to sleep in a strange bed, and then obviously you and I speak to each other every day, but we don't live in the same place. And so then when we do go away, we're in the same place together and just muddling along, working out who makes coffee, you.
Dr Fallon (03:56)
Mmm.
We each have our strengths, okay?
Dr Laura (04:12)
Who cooks the eggs? Me. And just working out how to, exactly, yeah. Where the car is parked, you. That's definitely not my strength. And when we're thinking about Christmas time and the festive season, we often are then in situations where we're perhaps going back to our family home, maybe staying with our parents if they're still alive and with us, or people are coming to our houses.
Dr Fallon (04:25)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (04:41)
And if you do have a new baby or a toddler where you have been working on their sleep, it can feel quite daunting that you think, my goodness, is this going to derail everything? Or even if you haven't been working on sleep, just how is everything, how are you going to rub along together when you do have naps and bedtime and bath time and stories and all those kinds of things to
Dr Fallon (04:42)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Laura (05:11)
Consider perhaps for the first time, because you haven't had to do that before, if this is a new baby.
Dr Fallon (05:16)
Yes. It's such a good discussion to have. And I feel like we are so qualified to talk about this, Laura. We're like the old aunties who are like, we're at, we've been there. We've done this. Let's tell his parents how it's done. Cause we've certainly, yeah, traveled a lot and had to, yeah, juggle many a festive season with our little crews. Let's maybe start by talking about, suppose that bedtime routine, it's such a crucial part of sleep. And I think often.
Dr Laura (05:22)
Yes.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (05:45)
people don't realize how important the bedtime routine is just for preparing the brain and the body for that process of drifting off to sleep. And I would say when traveling or staying somewhere different, or even just after a really crazy day with lots of presents and everything, sticking to the same bedtime, you know, even if it's been a really crazy day, having the same bedtime, if you can manage it. So if it's usually that your baby or toddler's in bed at seven,
Dr Laura (05:55)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (06:13)
and the day was all over the place, you can still just try and aim for seven because the circadian rhythm is kind of expecting bedtime at that time. And then really importantly, keep those sort of familiar steps in the lead up to bedtime. So even if it has been chaos and you run off your feet, if your child is expecting to have a particular book, bit of a song, you know, saying good night to the toys or whatever they like to do, make sure you do those things just before sleep.
Dr Laura (06:23)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (06:42)
that chaos of Christmas can make it so much harder for them to settle down.
Dr Laura (06:46)
Yeah. And therefore that bedtime routine is more important than ever. So try not to sacrifice that bedtime routine. your baby or toddler is feeling really overstimulated, loads of presents, loads of people interacting with them all day, all those new toys, different foods, then thinking about in that hour before bed, really helping them.
Dr Fallon (06:52)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (07:11)
taking them into a darker place in the house if that's possible, dimming the lights, playing some nice music, cuddles, story time. can, with older toddlers and preschoolers, you can be talking to them about, as they're in the bath, what are the things that have happened today, and just help them reflect on all of the things that have happened in a really calm manner.
and just help them place all of those experiences of the day into a nice narrative that then is to be easier for them to process whilst they're asleep. So try not to skip the bedtime routine. Don't just be like, I want to get back out there with all the other adults quick, get them into their pajamas, pop them down in the porticot and then get back out with the adults or the other, with the grownups. That is probably not going to result in a nice calm, easy.
Dr Fallon (07:48)
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (08:08)
Transition to sleep for your little one. So do use that time to help them down regulate.
Dr Fallon (08:10)
Yeah
And even if you've got a house full of guests, you can still kind of engineer their house environment and the lead up to sleep. There's nothing wrong with closing the blinds, you know, at 6.30 PM, even though it's still sunny outside in here in Australia. You can close the blinds, put on your Christmas tree lights. Everyone can really enjoy that lovely Christmasy feeling that you've created in the house. And that's going to signal to your baby or toddler circadian rhythm. it's starting to get dark. So sleep is coming soon.
what about managing holiday travel, Laura? That's something we've done a bit of. You've got all the baby and toddler paraphernalia packed up in the back of the car. Probably a pet as well. You're hitting the road. What do you reckon are the best? What are the things that worked, you know, for you?
Dr Laura (08:45)
Mmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Having a think about where in the new environment your baby or toddler is going to be sleeping. Are you all going to be in the same room together? Or is there going to be a different room for your children to sleep in? And then thinking about trying to replicate as much as possible the sleep environment from home. And of course, that's only, it's as much as is possible. So that could look like ensuring that you, if you use a white noise machine, bringing
Dr Fallon (09:19)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (09:28)
the white noise machine with you. There's lots of travel blackout blinds you can get if the place that you're going to doesn't have dark rooms. I know my parents never had dark room. thing is, I was going to England for Christmas, it was dark anyway, so it didn't matter. But thinking about people traveling to Queensland, for example. Then take some portable blackout blinds or just use tin foil and garbage bags on the windows if you need to.
Dr Fallon (09:45)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Glamorous.
Dr Laura (09:58)
really glamorous, you can put some stars on it, cut out some, make it look festive. And also think about if you are, just get really kind of creative. So I know one of the places we used to go away for, away to was a family, it wasn't my family beach, and it was a beach house that had an en suite and a walk-in robe. And we used to have one,
child in a porticot in the walk-in robe and then the other child in a porticot in the ensuite and then we were able to darken those and so although we all had to be in the same room together we were able to use the different spaces within that room so of course you'd need to ensure that it sits safe and that there's ventilation etc but it can be a really useful way to
Dr Fallon (10:29)
Yeah.
Yeah!
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (10:54)
try and replicate the bedroom environment as much as you can and then give that little bit of separation between your bed and their porticot or trundle bed if they are used to sleeping in a different room from you.
Dr Fallon (10:58)
Hmm.
Yeah. And with the porticoat as well, I mean, a lot of babies, they don't care less when they get put down in a porticoat. Same goes for toddlers. They're pretty resilient. They don't really mind. But if you're listening to this podcast, chances are your child might not be so flexible. If you think you've got a sensitive child and they're going to be thinking where on earth am I? Then do some practice settles at home. So when they're at home, it's very familiar. You might have the porticoat right beside their cot.
So everything's kind of the same, but they're getting used to being in that slightly different sleep environment. and do a few practices at home when maybe it's, you know, a couple of nights or a couple of naps that, know, they're really easy to settle for. you're likely to have success in the port of Cot at that time. And then when you're traveling, they're like, yeah, I know this place. It's very familiar to me. and take this. Yeah. Take the sheets off. They're caught. Don't get new ones. Don't get the hotel to bring you some.
Dr Laura (11:53)
Yeah, such a good idea.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (12:03)
You want the ones that smell exactly like home. And that's likely to really help them feel secure and safe there. And hopefully they'll sleep really well. Yeah.
Dr Laura (12:05)
Mm.
Mm. Yes. And thinking about on the trip to wherever you were going, think about whether you can travel, if you're in the car, can you travel during the nap times that your baby or toddler typically has so that they're getting a good chunk of sleep before all of the excitement at roughly the usual time.
Dr Fallon (12:26)
Mmm.
Yeah. And it means when you're traveling, you can listen to, you know what I used to do? used to be like, right, they're asleep. And then I put on like a true crime podcast, things they shouldn't really listen to, or like that album that I love with all the profanities in it. So yes, plan the travel for nap time. If you're traveling overseas or you just got a longer flight traveling during the night can be great because your child might just sleep most of the rides. So it's another one to think about.
Dr Laura (12:39)
Yeah.
You
Yes!
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:08)
And I know a lot of parents will say, what do I do about the naps? they're not going to, yeah, they know naps aren't going to go strictly to plan. Try not to stress so much. What we typically say is aim for a similar amount of day sleep, but don't worry if those naps are an unusual times or maybe they're not napping as much as they normally do. Try not to worry too much. I'd really just be thinking what's the, the total day sleep they have been having and don't exceed that because that's when, you know, if they have
Dr Laura (13:26)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:36)
I don't know, a random three hour long nap, which I don't normally have, you're probably going to have a really tricky night. So I would just be thinking like that. And if the actual timing of naps is a little bit wobbly, don't be too worried about it.
Dr Laura (13:41)
you
Yes.
No, and also I would just add to that that if you are staying with family or friends who don't get to see you and your children very much and they really do want to, know, granny wants to have a contact, that wants to hold your baby to sleep, just remember it's only one or two days and
Dr Fallon (14:12)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (14:13)
if your baby does have some contact naps when they normally only don't have contact naps, but it's on someone different. it's even if it does have to be on you, because the house is just chaotic and noisy, and there's no way they're going to be able to have a nap in a porticot in the ensuite, because there are still too much noise going on. Just try to be kind to yourself and your child.
Dr Fallon (14:23)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (14:36)
Aim is going to be to ensure that your baby or toddler does have some daytime sleep. And if that does mean that it's in a slightly different place than usual and it is on you or is on granny or auntie Claire or whoever it is on, that's okay. We're just trying to get, support your little one to get that daytime sleep so that they then can enjoy the rest of the time that they are awake. When you then go back into your usual sleep environment, when you go home, then
Dr Fallon (14:36)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (15:06)
you go back to letting them have their naps where they normally do. So don't think it's going to derail everything.
Dr Fallon (15:14)
Yes. I think that's, that's really, really good advice. And how about sort of handling changes in routine? Like often we've got, you know, we see them in clinic toddlers who are really sensitive to changes in routine. but there are ways that we can kind of support them with that. Did you have to do a bit of that with your toddlers? Not that toddlers now, but when your children were toddlers, Laura, did you kind of give them a bit of a heads up on what was happening and how did you explain things to them?
Dr Laura (15:36)
No.
Yeah, I would explain to them, and particularly once they're over two, two or three, would be, we're going somewhere different. going to be, it might seem quite exciting. We're going to be sleeping in the porticot or we're going to be sleeping on the pullout bed in Auntie, poor old Auntie Claire, in Auntie Claire's room. She's getting a few mentions today. doesn't listen to the podcast. She won't care. And so talking to them beforehand about, know, maybe in the week beforehand, this is what
Dr Fallon (15:48)
Mmm.
Hahaha!
Let's send this one to her.
Dr Laura (16:13)
Christmas is going to be looking like or this one, New Year is going to be looking like. And I know that some parents will actually, if they have children that they know are really sensitive to change. And as you say, in clinic, we work with a lot of families who do have children who find transitions quite challenging. can be a good idea to create a little book, little, sometimes known as social stories. And we're not talking about going to Kmart and creating a something really.
Dr Fallon (16:16)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (16:40)
you know, that costs money. could just be that you get some A4 sheets of paper and fold them in half and staple them. And you just create a little story. Like at Christmas, we go and stay at granny and granddad's house or auntie Claire's and I sleep here and I do this. in the overnight, this is how I go to, this is what happens when I wake overnight. And so you're just giving some steps so that in that lead up to the big change, you're able to describe to your
Dr Fallon (16:57)
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (17:10)
toddler or preschooler exactly what's going to happen and then it doesn't just come out of the blue for them.
Dr Fallon (17:13)
Yeah. Yes. And then you can take that little booklet with you and show them, Hey, look, we're on this page now where we've had our, you know, if you are going to be sort of going through, we have Christmas lunch and then we do this and, and things like include things like their comforter or a soft toy. If you're traveling, even if they don't normally have a comforter, get them to pick a soft toy. So it's something that comes with them and they can feature in the book. So when we do go to granny's, we're going to take
I'm going to say Goldie the puppy, because that's my daughter's current favorite. We're going to take Goldie the puppy along with us and you'll be able to cuddle her at bedtime. yeah, so you can actually take it with you and provide, yeah, just that bit of a sense of what's coming and how it's going to play out. can make a big difference to those toddlers that aren't so keen on having their world upended for a day or two. And I think finally, before we dive into parent questions,
Dr Laura (18:03)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (18:08)
There's going to be, there's going to be family members that have big opinions on what you're doing. Or he'll say, no, don't put them down to nap. I want to have a play with them or, you know, or they might, you know, just want to derail the plan that you've got for your child. And I think just know that you're the parent and you can decide what the priorities are. You might decide, yeah, okay. Having that second, that's not such a priority. There's a lot going on. but if you think, no, my child really needs a break from everyone.
and they're going to do better if they have an app. You're the parent and you can make that decision. You do have that agency. So don't forget that.
Dr Laura (18:42)
Yeah.
No. Yeah, be brave and think about having a little script in your mind that you will use when you encounter a situation like that. And it may be, thank you, mom, dad, Auntie Claire, for that suggestion. I appreciate you trying to help. I know that my baby or my toddler would prefer whatever you want to do.
And I'm going to do that because that suits her best. But thank you. And then move on. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (19:19)
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, just clear, succinct. It's such a good idea. And just say no to plans. If your family's planning to do something right at 10am when your child naps, you can say, no, we won't be there for that bit. And that's okay. You can absolutely do that.
Dr Laura (19:36)
Yeah. And if you're in a couple, it may be that one of you attends with perhaps an older child, if you have an older child. And then the other one stays back and stays and settles the baby. And you don't have to do everything that is on the agenda for the whole family. I can bet your bottom dollar, the granny and granddad at some point will fall asleep on the armchair and they won't be participating in the game of charades or whatever.
Dr Fallon (19:49)
Mm.
Yeah
Dr Laura (20:03)
whatever it is doing, playing in the paddling pool or jumping on the trampoline with the hose underneath or you know, any of those silly things that happen in the later afternoon on an Aussie Christmas and no one's telling them off. And if they're allowed to have their little nap, it's perfectly okay for you to say my child needs to have a nap and I'm gonna just, just gonna stay out of this one.
Dr Fallon (20:04)
Yeah.
Yeah
Yes.
absolutely.
Hmm. You know, there's one last thing I'm going to add to this that just occurred to me and that is that when you're a new family.
All of a sudden at Christmas time, you're going to be pulled in lots of different directions. So trying to navigate and negotiate, you know, who gets, you know, are we going, which set of grandparents are we going to see? You know, in the morning and at lunchtime or at dinner or on the day versus on boxing day, or that becomes really challenging to negotiate. And a lot of, grandparents have very strong thoughts on that. so you just know that it's totally fine to split Christmas across. Sometimes I see one half of our family in January.
Dr Laura (20:48)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (21:06)
or February and we just sit down and have our Christmas lunch then. So don't feel like you've got to try and make it to everyone's house on one day. And actually I would be saying while you've got a young baby, we're going to stay home, come and visit us, bring some food, bring some wine. Because you know, you've got a lot to juggle. It's a lot harder for you to be moving around than it is for the grandparents typically anyway. So yeah, you can call the shots on that as well.
Dr Laura (21:28)
Yes.
And think about what traditions you want to bring in for your new little family. there'll be a, you'll notice that, you if you are in a couple, your partner might say, this is what I always did as a child at Christmas. And then you'll say, this is what I always did as a child at Christmas. What do we want for our child at Christmas? What are going to be our new traditions? And really enjoy that because it's so much fun. And as your children get older,
Dr Fallon (21:51)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (21:59)
then they will get really excited about those traditions, be it putting carrots out on the porch for the reindeer, or be it making gingerbread houses or watching the carols on Christmas Eve or whatever it is that you do. It becomes a really warm, uniting activity every year that just really sets you apart as your own little family unit.
Dr Fallon (22:14)
Hmm
Yes. I love Christmas. I still get all the warm fuzzy feelings and I love setting up the tree and listening to the carols as much, if not more than my children. so yeah, it's a great time of year. awesome. All right. Well, maybe we'll move into parent questions now, cause we do have quite a few. I think we'll have to get our skates on a little bit. So I'll start maybe by reading out a question sent in by Kinsley.
Dr Laura (22:39)
you
Hmm.
Yes. Yes. Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:58)
Kinsley has written in about her eight month old. She says, I joined Sombau when my daughter was five months old and used the gradual fade approach. Gradual fade approach, slow fade I think she means. She now needs minimal support to go to sleep and falls asleep in her cot by herself half of the time. However, our problem is inconsistency with night sleep.
Dr Laura (23:10)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:22)
Her sleep needs a 13 to 14 hours. She has around 11 to 12 hours overnight and the remaining sleep is two day naps. She's awake for about three hours between naps and up to four hours before bed. She's happy and alert after her naps and during her wake time and she goes to bed for naps and at night within 10 minutes. Some nights she only wakes twice for breastfeeds. Other nights she wakes every two hours and requires very hands-on support to go back to sleep.
She does not appear truly awake during those wakes as her eyes are closed and she is quite floppy, but she's crying. she's still asleep. Anyway, sorry, I'll keep reading the question. I've tried letting herself settle, but she won't or can't and cries louder and more frantic. She's capable of self settling in other instances as I've seen her via the monitor, do it countless times. It seems we have a run of several nights in a row that she wakes every two hours and then finally only a couple of good nights.
Dr Laura (23:57)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (24:17)
Also after the disturbed night she usually wakes very early the next morning and it throws the whole day out. Do you have any advice as to why this might be happening and what we can do?
Dr Laura (24:27)
We sure do, Kinsley. We sure do. Yeah, there are. Kinsley, I would be really recommending that you just log her sleep to determine what her average sleep need is. The difference between 13 and 14 hours, well, is an hour, obviously, but that can be considerable. if you're, it's the difference, yeah. So if your baby is actually only needing 13 hours and you're aiming for 14.
Dr Fallon (24:29)
Yeah, there's a few things that jump out in there, aren't there?
Mm.
All the difference, yeah.
Dr Laura (24:57)
then she will be quite wakeful because she's not going to be able to maintain her sleep all night in one or two stretches. So she's eight months old and she's doing somewhere between 11 and 12 hours overnight and then has the two day sleep. So let's say she does 12 hours overnight and if she only has a 13 hour sleep need, then those two day naps might
Dr Fallon (25:02)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (25:25)
only be 30 minutes each. It just really is the difference. It makes a big difference. So I would be double checking her sleep need and then just tailing that rhythm that you have more closely. Perfectly appropriate for her to be on two naps a day, perfectly appropriate for her to have that longest wake window before bedtime as well. So I think that sounds really good, Kinsley. What I also love is that she can self-settle.
Dr Fallon (25:50)
Mmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (25:55)
So she's going to sleep within 10 minutes for her naps and at the start of the night and half of the time she can self-settle. So that tells us that she does know how to do it. So in all likelihood, the times, the 50 % of the times that you're having to give her the support to go to sleep and then give her the support when she resettles are just down to sleep pressure, not being quite high enough. What do you think, Valen? Do think that sounds likely?
Dr Fallon (25:55)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, I completely agree. I think everything in that the question really says this is a sleep pressure problem. I'm glad to hear she's got, really good mood during the day, but you're right. If it is a 13 hour sleep need and she has 12 overnight, then if she has any more than two 30 minute naps, she's going to be wakeful overnight. so we really want to firm that up. Look at that unique sleep needs chapter, check her total average sleep duration. So minusing all of the night wakes, just look at how much sleep does she actually tend to get?
Dr Laura (26:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (26:53)
and then use our daily rhythm charts to get a sense of what a daily rhythm could look like and really stick to it. So what we mean by that is get them up on time at the set bedtime every morning, make sure they don't overdo the day's sleep and get them through to bedtime. And at first you might get really, really cranky. It's going to feel really different for your baby, but typically after a few days to a week, they really fall into a great rhythm. And that's when you're likely to find that short-sale settle all the time.
Dr Laura (26:59)
Mmm.
Yeah, good.
Dr Fallon (27:22)
Yeah, you're doing a great job, Kinsley, and let us know how you go.
Dr Laura (27:25)
Okay, we've had an email from Sarah who says, she also has an eight month old and her baby can self settle for most naps. Occasionally needs to use that supported accelerated approach for five or so minutes when they're putting her down for naps or at the start of the night. However, if she wakes in the middle of the night, Sarah says, we've never been successful with having her cot settle and she's always managed to cry us out.
And she sometimes screams her head off for an hour and a half before we cuddle her. So Sarah says, my questions are, we're struggling to transition to two naps and wonder if she is ready for this. And I would say yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:04)
Goodness.
Definitely at eight months, aren't many babies who can still do three naps and have good nights. So a hundred percent.
Dr Laura (28:22)
Yeah. Sarah says that her baby is awake for five hours before bed and Sarah wonders if that's too long.
Dr Fallon (28:32)
No, that's probably about right, I would say. Yeah, for eight months. That's pretty good.
Dr Laura (28:34)
Yeah, yeah. And we'll remember that we're with when we're thinking about baby's sleeps and the number of naps they have a day and how long they're awake for. They are on a trajectory that it's like a juggernaut, we cannot stop it. All babies are getting to the point where they drop down to one nap in toddlerhood, and then they drop down to no naps as well. So they were not thinking they should only be awake for four hours or only awake for five hours before bed.
Dr Fallon (28:55)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (29:04)
This jugular, we can't stop it. They need to start to have longer and longer awake during the day because it's developmentally normal. So five hours at eight months, depending on what your child's sleep needs are, perfectly fine. So I wouldn't worry Sarah. Sarah then, can see where the hesitation that Sarah has comes from because she goes on to say, she also falls asleep whenever we're in the car and it's hard to avoid car rides.
Dr Fallon (29:06)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yes. So it can be a real killer if they fall asleep easily in the car. it can easily throw out, you know, giving them way too much day sleep or way too many day naps. And then that can, cause what Sarah's describing overnight, that is a split night, an hour and a half awake. She's upset, can't fall back asleep. She's got the skills to self settle, but she's not doing it.
Dr Laura (29:38)
Mm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:54)
because sleep pressure has crashed, it's going to be to do with those day naps. So definitely moving to two. And then what you might need to do, since your baby's very sensitive to being in the car, is really as much as you can, that's all you can do, is try to plan to car trips for nap times so that she can nap in the car, that's fine. And it's roughly at the time she's supposed to be doing it. Often it is about engineering your day a little bit. It's not always possible, just do the best you can.
Dr Laura (30:10)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (30:21)
and if there are sneaky extra carnaps, just keep them really short, try and keep it to, you know, 10 minutes max, if you can manage it.
Dr Laura (30:29)
Yeah. And Sarah's final question is, I need to redo her daily rhythm? She's saying, yeah, I think so as well. She adds that her baby used to have a 10 and a half hour sleep need. she, sorry, what did I say? Yes, sorry, 12 and a half, yeah, sleep need. But in the last seven days when she's logged her sleep, it's now about 11 hours. And she's saying, is that a drastic change?
Dr Fallon (30:37)
Yeah, definitely sounds like it.
12 and a half I think it is, it? Yeah, 12 and a half.
I'm sure it feels drastic. Definitely dropping an hour and a half is not fun. But probably entirely normal. Babies can really gradually reduce their sleep needs and others sort of plot along and then it's like they drop off a cliff. And we don't really know why. But I would definitely you've got to reassess that daily rhythm. If she's only having 11 hours, it is on the low side and that's okay. It might be what she needs.
Dr Laura (30:59)
Yes.
Yes.
you
Dr Fallon (31:23)
But we definitely need to cater for that 11 hour sleep need. So yeah, use the Unique Sleep Needs chapter, look at the daily rhythm charts and just know when we do change the daily rhythm. Like I said earlier, it's hard at first and it might feel kind of unnatural to be trying to push a different pattern. But the idea is that after three or four days, that hour and a half awake every night should start to disappear. She'll sleep through, she'll wake up more happy, she'll cope better with the different daily rhythm.
Dr Laura (31:47)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (31:53)
So yeah, well done, Sarah. sounds really tricky that hour and a half in the night, you poor thing. And yeah, fiddling with sleep pressure is likely to really quickly reduce the length of that night wake. but do know that we are here for coaching calls. if you want to have us look at the sleep diary and work with you, I'm very happy to do that. Hmm. Good.
Dr Laura (31:57)
Yeah! gosh!
Yeah.
Hmm, yeah.
Okay, our next question is from Angela. Shall I read it or do you want to read it? Yeah, okay.
Dr Fallon (32:20)
I'll read this one out if you like. so Angela, this is a really good question actually. I'm surprised it's taken this long to get this question. I think a lot of parents will find it interesting. So Angela wants to know does screen time affect sleep? She says we are seeing everywhere how much screen time causes wakeups and loss of sleep pressure. For example, if we wanted to let my toddlers watch Bluey in the afternoon for 30 minutes, an hour or two before bed, will this cause night wakings?
Dr Laura (32:27)
Mmm.
Yeah, no, is the short answer. No. Yes. So what we know about screens and sleep is like it's ever evolving. It's a very contentious issue at the moment in the sleep field, research field. When we're thinking about
Dr Fallon (32:51)
Absolutely not. Put that bluey on and go and make yourself a cuppa.
Dr Laura (33:14)
about how screens may affect sleep. we are looking at, or researchers are looking at, is the type of light that is emitted by the screens and whether that impacts the circadian rhythm. And often it's melatonin that is being looked at. So we're never thinking about sleep pressure being affected by screen time. So sleep pressure is a different system altogether. And sleep pressure builds
Dr Fallon (33:37)
No.
Dr Laura (33:43)
all day in younger, in babies and toddlers, sleep pressure builds more quickly during the day and therefore they need naps to kind of recharge. It's like going to the petrol station, having some fuel put back in and then the sleep pressure carries on building and then it drops. Then they need to go to sleep again and have another nap, et cetera. But light does not impact that sleep system.
So in answer to your question, Angela, where you're seeing everywhere that screen time affects sleep pressure, it doesn't. So put that out of your mind. Now, yeah. No, I hadn't seen it either that it affects sleep pressure, but I guess it's only a matter of time, isn't it? Because often what happens online is that there's a tiny little grain of truth gets mixed in with a bit of a misunderstanding. And before you know it, bang, rumours take hold.
Dr Fallon (34:22)
Yeah, I haven't seen that online yet, but yeah. Yeah.
Mmm.
Yep. Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if it's just, there's a lot of people trying to kind of create a career in sleep and everyone wants to try to say something a little bit different or, know, just desperate for ideas. What am I going to post? And I think that's sometimes also how these myths get started as well. yeah. And just misinterpreting the actual evidence. so thanks for the question, Angela, cause I think that's a really good one. So yeah.
Dr Laura (35:02)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (35:07)
keep watching Bluey that 30 minute break I bet is Angela's little rest time. and you're always thinking too with screen time, if, know, does it have a purpose? And usually it does. Bluey is an excellent quality program. Your toddlers are having a rest. gives them physical rest, even though they're not sleeping, they're having a break. and parents are having a break. And I think sometimes 30 minutes of Bluey is what keeps the mental health of the household, you know, chugging along and on track. So.
Dr Laura (35:12)
Yeah.
Yeah. No, and if you can just try to avoid screens in the 30 to 60 minutes before the start of the night, just as your general rule of thumb. of course, when we have to think about a range of other things, we probably should do a podcast episode on it in where we can talk about in a little bit more detail, Fallon. But you know, we know that some for people who are neurodivergent, sometimes looking at the screen is actually a really helpful way.
Dr Fallon (35:35)
Yeah, we don't want to mess with that.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (36:04)
to down regulate. And so we don't want to take that crutch away. But anyway, that's a little bit of an aside. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (36:06)
Mmm.
It would be a great episode, wouldn't it? Talking about toddlers with sort of additional needs would be, yeah, let's do that soon. Maybe not before Christmas.
Dr Laura (36:17)
Hmm. No.
so we have another email, which is from Grace and Grace says, Hey, ladies, I've really enjoyed your podcast and the Sombelle program has been life changing for us. Yay, good to hear. So Grace has given us a bit of history. She says we implemented the supported accelerated approach at 10 months old. Her son has a 12 and a half hour sleep need and is on two naps.
Dr Fallon (36:30)
Yay!
Dr Laura (36:46)
The nights have been a huge success as he's now falling asleep on his own and sleeping for 10 and a half hours with no wakes after starting from hourly wakes and feed to sleep.
Dr Fallon (36:55)
amazing.
Grace, you have worked really hard. Well done though. Geez, that's paid off. Hourly wakes and fed to sleep to now sleeping through. That's phenomenal.
Dr Laura (37:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, well done. But Grace says, independent naps are still a huge battle. I'm yet to get him to successfully sleep in his cot during the day. Three days a week he contact naps on his grandma who's happy to keep doing so. And I take him in the prayer more car for the other day naps as I want to protect the nights and keep him happy and rested. So Grace says, my questions are.
Dr Fallon (37:15)
huh.
Dr Laura (37:35)
Do you think if I stretch him out to one nap a day, that will add more sleep pressure for his nap settle or will that just make him angrier? He seems to be doing well on two naps provided they are assisted.
Dr Fallon (37:49)
It's a little bit too young to go to one nap. So for now stick to the two naps. and it sounds like they're working. If you're happy putting him in the car or the pram, that's totally fine to keep doing totally fine for grandma to hold him as well. but when he is probably closer to 12 months of age and he does drop to one nap, yeah, you're likely to actually see, well, there's just a higher likelihood that he will settle in his cot for that nap. It won't just happen automatically. You might have to practice it a bit and
Dr Laura (38:03)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (38:19)
work at it a little because yeah, sleep pressure should be higher, especially when you first move to one nap. and I would also just be making that bedroom look exactly like night. So he knows that at nighttime when it's pitch black, I self settle in my cot. So if you want him to settle in the cot in the day, make it the same. If it's pitch black, you follow a similar routine to the bedtime. He should be expecting to self settle there. And with that high sleep pressure, he might just do it. So yeah, you're a couple of months away, but
Dr Laura (38:24)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (38:49)
I'm yeah, holding out for that for you, Grace. It'll be life changing when you've got maybe an hour and a half or so to yourself in the middle of the day. It'd be lovely.
Dr Laura (38:56)
Yes. So Grace goes on to ask, at what point do we do I accept defeat that he won't nap in the cot during the day? The hysterical crying and sitting in a dark room in the day is wearing me thin.
Dr Fallon (39:06)
Mmm.
I understand. I hate it when I hear parents are sitting in a dark room and putting up with a lot of crying. Look, I would say when you do go to work on settles in the cot for naps, decide on what your limit is. Like you might say, okay, I can do this for 15 minutes, be very, very consistent. And at 15 minutes, if he's not calming down and starting to settle bail out, put him in the car, put him in the pram.
Dr Laura (39:26)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (39:37)
try again another day, or maybe you think that 20 minutes would be easy for me. I'm going to persist for 20 minutes, or maybe it's only 10 minutes. Decide what you can manage. And then that's, that's your limit. And that's okay. And if you are trying some cot settling whilst he's still on two naps, it might be that you just decide that there's one particular nap you've got to work on first.
Dr Laura (39:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (40:02)
Often parents will say, settling for the morning naps way easier than the afternoon one, in which case just work on it for the morning nap. And maybe the afternoon nap will always be in the pram or the car. It's just tough as babies get older. Yeah.
Dr Laura (40:06)
Hmm.
Yeah, they haven't got much longer, not much longer with that second nap. yeah, breaking it down into manageable goals can be helpful.
Dr Fallon (40:19)
Hmm.
So well done, Grace. It sounds really tricky, but yeah, I think that gives you a little bit of a plan over the next couple of months. And hopefully when he's on that one nap, you'll find it much easier to have him in the cot for that nap. Awesome.
Dr Laura (40:35)
you
Dr Fallon (40:38)
So we have an email from Alison. Alison actually emailed us from a sleep school program and it sounds like a program where she's actually staying there with her baby for a few days and she says that she's really struggling with their approach. Alison joins Sombelle while still attending the sleep school and she wonders why we suggest that it's okay to wander out of a room when a baby is upset in their cot.
Dr Laura (40:53)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (41:04)
and also wonders why her baby is so upset when he even sees he's caught, he's getting upset. What do you think?
Dr Laura (41:09)
Hmm. Yeah. Alison. I really feel for parents when we receive emails like this, because I am picturing them being buffeted from every which way with different approaches, different things that they're reading online, different information that they're receiving from well-meaning friends, families, and health professionals.
Dr Fallon (41:19)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (41:36)
that what I would really, really strongly recommend Alison do right now is to choose one approach to invest in and to stop all of that additional noise. You're currently at a sleep school. Whilst you were there, I would be thinking, let's just follow what they are suggesting at the sleep school and ask the questions to them, to the
Dr Fallon (41:47)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (42:05)
health practitioners that you're working with at the sleep school to ask them about what is the evidence to support the approach that they are recommending that you use and then give that approach a red hot go whilst you're there with those people there who are paid to help you holding your hand rather than at the same time looking at
Dr Fallon (42:23)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (42:34)
other approaches, including ours, which is only going to introduce confusion because you're then the people who are being paid that you were paying to support you. They're not fully on, they don't know all the details about our approaches and any other approach that you're looking at. And then it becomes confusing for them. And then they don't know how best to support you because it's, they get kind of pulled into the swamp of information and hybrid approaches too.
Dr Fallon (42:39)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, I think that's, that's really, really good advice. and I'd say that to any parent, just stick with one approach, give it a red hot go before you even consider something else. in regards to the other part of Alison's question, I would say, look, regarding our programs, we suggest to wander out of the room. So if you put your baby in the cot and they're upset, we would only suggest to wander out of the room. It's one of the modifications we suggest. If that's the right fit for your baby.
So we have to think about baby's temperament. Some babies are way calmer and go straight to sleep the minute that parent gets out of their space, believe it or not. I know a lot of parents don't believe that, but there are babies with a temperament where for as long as they can see you, they get really, really cross and really angry and they want you to do something. They want you to settle them. And the minute you step out of their line of sight, they go, what can I do to settle me? And they calm down, they roll around, get comfortable, whatever they're to do. And they go to sleep.
Dr Laura (43:29)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm
Dr Fallon (43:59)
so you've got to think about the temperament. If your child becomes really, really distressed, like more distressed when you leave than when you're there, maybe it's better to stay in the room. so everything in our song bell approaches is about considering what suits your baby best. and I can't underscore that enough. never going to be saying, no, you have to leave the room. If that's not what's best suited to your baby and you know, your baby better than we do. So yeah.
Dr Laura (43:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (44:28)
When the time is right, Alison, in your home, and you decide to dive into our approaches, be keeping that in mind. There's a lot of ways that you can tailor our approaches and they're really detailed in the program so that you can feel really confident you're doing what's right for your baby.
Dr Laura (44:36)
Mm.
I think also Fallon, the final part of Alison's question is why her baby is so upset when he even sees his cot now. So I would be thinking when you get home, Alison, just looking at the unique sleep needs chapter, working out how much sleep your baby is averaging, and then working up an appropriate daily rhythm for him. And that will then help.
Dr Fallon (44:54)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (45:11)
that will help to ensure that you're only taking him towards his cot and popping him in his cot when he's actually tired and truly ready to go to sleep. And then you may find that that just helps to minimise that crying that he does as he goes into his cot. And know that some crying is actually just normal baby behaviour. So as long as...
Dr Fallon (45:29)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (45:35)
You know, some babies just do it with spoken about it before on the podcast, some will just do a bit of a whinge and a cry for a couple of minutes. And then it's like creating their own white noise. And then they go off to sleep and it's nothing to worry about. But if it's extended crying, then I'd be thinking about that daily rhythm and just making sure that you're only popping him down when he's actually tired enough.
Dr Fallon (45:54)
Yeah, I think one of the best examples is some babies when you put them in the pram, they cry for a few minutes, not for any reason. They actually love pram rides, but they don't like the change in what they're doing. So the transition to doing something different, they find unsettling, they have a cry and then they calm down. Yeah, that's important to know. But Alison, hang in there. You're in the trenches right now. When you're ready, we're here to support you. The Sombelle program is here to support you.
Dr Laura (46:06)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (46:23)
If you need to see us for a coaching call, we can take a really close look at the sleep diary and help you with the next steps if you need us.
Dr Laura (46:29)
Okay, and we have had an email from Catherine. So Catherine has three questions, which we can probably do one by one, Fallon, I think. So Catherine says, our seven month old boy has been rolling for three months, but until recently, we've been able to settle him in the cot on his back. For the past three or four weeks, he's been rolling over almost as soon as we put him down and he can't seem to fall asleep this way.
Dr Fallon (46:39)
Yeah, yep.
Dr Laura (46:59)
He either gets excited or upset or in an unsafe position with his arms stuck between cop bars or his head hitting the edges. Catherine says, I've taken to patting him to sleep so that I can have one hand on him to prevent rolling. If he rolls in his sleep, he can stay asleep fine. The issue is just establishing sleep. So, okay, just falling asleep.
Dr Fallon (47:01)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (47:24)
So Catherine says, my question is how to try to maintain the slow fade or supported accelerated approaches that we have been doing while he's doing this. Is it just something he'll have to adjust to without the padding?
Dr Fallon (47:39)
This is such a brilliant question. There's so many parents who want to know the answer to this. So let's start with the rolling from back to tummy. So there have been some recent adjustments to the guidelines around this. And now it's seen as being totally fine if your baby is able to roll front and back and especially by seven months of age. If they can roll both ways and they have a preference for rolling on their tummy, it's okay to leave them be on their tummy.
Dr Laura (47:41)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (48:07)
because we just know that they're going to roll around, they're going to get themselves comfy. If we're constantly putting them on the back, can increase pair and anxiety. It might mean that you're getting up a lot overnight, constantly rolling them back over. That's not great for, for mental health. so there's always going to be that balance, but you've got to make sure the cot is really safe. definitely don't want anything loose, no loose objects, nothing like that in the cot. when they start to have this kind of rolling behavior. so.
Dr Laura (48:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (48:34)
Catherine's right, once he's rolled over and he falls asleep, it's okay to leave him on his tummy. So this is only for babies rolling both ways and older babies as well. So in terms of how to get him off to sleep when he doesn't seem to want to fall asleep on his tummy, you know, and I think what Catherine's thinking is she doesn't want to keep patting him to sleep on his back because he doesn't, you you want to work towards more independent settling. I would say it just could be a case of persisting with that
Dr Laura (48:43)
He
Dr Fallon (49:03)
you know, if he's wanting to roll onto his tummy, choose your approach, stick with it. Like it could even just be that you do a bum pat until he falls asleep. or you could do more of a supported accelerated approach. That would be fine. And if after five or 10 minutes of trying, he's upset and cranky, pick him up, give him a cuddle, pop him back down and keep trying. It will just be a case of persisting through probably maybe two, maybe three trickier settles at the start of the night. And then he'll be, excuse me, he'll be, he'll be fine. And it will be.
Dr Laura (49:10)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (49:33)
Okay. Would you say anything different, Laura?
Dr Laura (49:34)
Yeah. Yeah, I would just, I concur with what you've said. I would just be, yeah, letting Catherine note that it's not necessary for her to be having one hand on him to try and keep him on his back. She doesn't need to do that. So if he wants to roll over on his tummy, then you can be letting him do that. So don't feel that you can't use a supported accelerated approach because he's rolling onto his tummy.
Dr Fallon (49:49)
Yes. Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Laura (50:03)
So if you've previously used that, that's your preferred one, then let him do it. And then you would just be patting him on his bottom or on his back. Whilst he's on his tummy, you don't need to hold him still.
Dr Fallon (50:18)
Yeah. And we don't want him to start to think, now to fall asleep, I need to be on my back with my mum patting me. And then he starts waking up overnight going, Hey, where'd you go? Come back over here. I want my pats and I need you to roll me back over. yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (50:25)
Yeah, Yes. Yeah. Okay, so Catherine's next question is, we're having so much trouble dropping night feeds. He wakes between 1030 and 11 and then between 130 and two and again around five. We've alternated which feed we try to skip but for any attempts his crying escalates until it seems like he's almost hyperventilating. Catherine, that sounds
Dr Fallon (50:37)
Mmm.
Ooh, that's tough.
Dr Laura (50:55)
sounds tough. We try to settle him a little before eventually giving in and feeding him. Sometimes my partner is able to get him to sleep without a feed, but he wakes 10 minutes later. So do we have any tips for managing this intense crying stroke screaming? We always pick him up because it's so intense.
Dr Fallon (51:15)
it sounds horrible. Well, first step, as always, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but just check his daily rhythm. Hasn't, it doesn't need to change that sleep means haven't dropped. cause that could be a factor making it really hard, especially since he's falling asleep and then waking 10 minutes later, makes me think, maybe we need to adapt that daily rhythm a little bit.
Dr Laura (51:16)
Mmm.
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (51:36)
And then in terms of dropping the night feeds, there's a few things I do. So the first thing is make sure he's being offered solids three times per day. Might not eat huge meals, but if he's being offered solids, then he has the opportunity to get more calories in the daytime when you do drop a night feed. I would also pick one feed to drop. I wouldn't be alternating or changing which feed you're trying to give up. I'd generally say drop the first feed of the night when sleep pressure is still a bit higher. Towards morning can be very hard to give up a feed.
Dr Laura (51:56)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (52:06)
And that's likely to work better than yeah, chopping and changing. So set a time when you're going to offer, cause you're to go from two feeds to one feed set a time when you're going to offer that feed. If he wakes up outside of that time, yep, go in, do the resettle. But if it's time to feed, then just go in and feed. Because sometimes if we try to settle them a bit and then we go, it's not going to work. We'll give the feed. Your baby might be learning that, okay, if I just really persist with crying.
Dr Laura (52:25)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (52:35)
Sometimes they'll just give, you know, give in and I'll get this feed. and that can cause that escalation where they just go, brilliant. Got it. I'm going to just scream my head off as soon as I wake up because that means I'm more likely to get a feed. you know, and it's lovely and cozy and I'm sure, you know, he enjoys the feed. so just having that idea in your head of this is the time we're going to feed. If it's not this time, we're just not going to do it. We persist with resettling. and when it's time for a feed, just do it to prevent that, that escalation trap.
Dr Laura (52:40)
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (53:05)
Would you add anything to that?
Dr Laura (53:07)
Just in terms of managing that intense crying or screaming, I'd be thinking about wearing some noise-cancelling headphones or some AirPods so that you can keep yourself calm when you are resettling in without the feed. Because in the middle of the night, I mean, it's bad enough, the baby protesting loudly during the day, but in the middle of the night, it can really feel quite magnified. And our ability to stay calm is also
depleted because it's the middle of the night when we should be sleeping. So think about protecting yourself, some, yeah, protecting how much of the noise you're hearing and also have a mantra to yourself. You know, he's safe, he's warm, he's loved, he's not hungry. He's safe, he's warm, he's loved, he's not hungry. He's just a bit cross. You could just say that he's just a bit cross. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (54:01)
Just a bit mad. Yeah.
Dr Laura (54:05)
And just to keep yourself grounded, feel your feet on the ground. Feel, scrunch your toes against the floorboards or the carpet and feel how that feels on your toes to keep yourself calm and grounded whilst you're doing the settling. And know that it is
Dr Fallon (54:10)
you
Dr Laura (54:29)
perfectly reasonable for your baby to do some intense crying initially when you move to let's say one feed after 1am for him to cry intensely for any weights he has before that because up until now what he has learned is this is the strange dance that mum and dad do with me in the night I scream for half an hour and then they give me the feed and he goes okay all right that's you know best mum and dad that's what I'll do
Dr Fallon (54:49)
Hehehehe
Yeah
Dr Laura (54:59)
So he'll do a loud scream. And then after half an hour, when he hasn't had, doesn't think things don't go the way that they normally do. He's like the steps, the dance steps aren't being followed. Then he will go, this is odd. And may scream a bit louder because he doesn't understand why things have changed. Why is it this dance playing out like it normally does? And stay very, very calm. Think about the mantra that you say to yourself. Think about feeling your feet on the floor, staying very calm.
Dr Fallon (54:59)
Yes.
Dr Laura (55:29)
He's just cranky. And that's okay for him to be cranky. But it's also okay at this age for him not to be having as many fees overnight when he would like to drop them. And then just keep persisting. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (55:41)
gold advice, Laura. It's just gold advice. I think that we need to get you to like record a mindfulness meditation for parents to listen to in those middle of the night, terrible settles. I think it is just such good advice. And I think the only thing I'll just go back to is check the sleep pressure as well. Cause if settles are going on for a really long time,
Dr Laura (56:03)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (56:05)
you can, it might be that we tweak the day nap a little bit, make it a bit shorter. And then that means that those overnight settles are way quicker and easier to get through. And I noticed that Katherine also asked about, should they move him to his own room now? Could that help things? Look, definitely if he's a breastfed baby, being in a separate room to the breastfeeding parent can make a really huge difference when you drop night feeds. It can also mean that you're not hearing every little sound.
Dr Laura (56:12)
Mmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (56:32)
that he makes, you know, in when he comes up into light sleep, he's not being woken up by the odd sort of snort or grunt, you know, or the movement of the blankets as you roll over. So it could really, really help. It's definitely something to have a think about.
Dr Laura (56:33)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah. All right. So we've got a couple more questions to go Fallon. So we've had one from Lauren. Lauren has a five month old who was sleeping well, only waking once per night after using the quick fade approach. However, he's recently started waking more often overnight, cries a lot and will only resettle with feeding. What should Lauren do? I feel like Lauren will be able to listen to how we answered Catherine's question. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (57:09)
Yeah, yeah, look, I would say sleep pressure, really look at that daily rhythm, go through the unique sleep needs chapter, pick out a daily rhythm to try that matches your child's sleep needs. Yeah, it's really likely to be a bit of a timing issue. Yeah.
Dr Laura (57:19)
Yeah.
Mm, yeah. Yep. And at five months old, you may or may not have started to introduce solids yet. Lauren, often it's around six months. And yeah, once, so it is appropriate for him to be still having feeds overnight. But you know, if it's a lot, if it's a lot more and they're not actually big feeds that he's having.
Dr Fallon (57:33)
cool
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (57:55)
then it's starting to become a little bit of a crutch to fall back to sleep. Then I'd be thinking about picking the times that you're going to be offering him the feeds overnight and then using that one settling approach when he's not due a feed, when he is due a feed, feed straight away, pop him back into his cot or bassinet, excuse me, cot or bassinet before he's asleep. and then settle him to sleep again, start to introduce foods from six months or earlier if your nurse recommends it.
Dr Fallon (58:19)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (58:24)
And then when you're ready, you can look towards dropping the overnight feeds whenever you're ready, as long as his weight gain is fine and following the advice that's in the Sunvale.
Dr Fallon (58:31)
Mmm.
Yeah. One thing I want to quickly add here, cause I think this happens a lot too. Lauren says she's using the quick fade approach. And I know a lot of parents get a little stuck on that and they'll say sleep improved. Now I only have to pat them to sleep, but they haven't yet faced out the padding or the humming to sleep. And then what happens is yeah, they hit that four or five month mark and suddenly they're like, well, I was being patted when I fell asleep. Now I've woken up. Where are you? Get back in here. And I want my pats again.
Dr Laura (58:51)
yes, yeah yeah that's so true.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (59:05)
So just know that until they're able to drift off to sleep without needing the padding or the humming with that approach, they're probably not going to have consistently great nights. still going to want that support. so yeah, do keep working through that approach. And if you're having trouble phasing out the padding and the humming, the best advice I can give you is to consider switching to the supported accelerated approach. A lot of parents do that at that point and it works really, really well. Good. And we've got one last question quickly because
Dr Laura (59:13)
Mm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Good.
Dr Fallon (59:34)
We've had so many today, we're really stretched on. We have Kate who emailed in and asked, why does my baby wake and need support to go back to sleep when he falls asleep quickly and easily on his own at bedtime? He's seven months old and has a 12 hour sleep need. He has one to one and a half hours of day sleep, goes to bed at 7pm and is up for the day by 6am latest. He's a very, he's very tired by bedtime.
and self settles really easily for naps and at night. But he wakes for one feed around 12 to 2 a.m. Self settles and he's caught after that as well. But he wakes up multiple other times in the night and needs some intervention to get back to sleep. Sometimes he wakes after five or 10 minutes or he might wake for an entire hour and be really upset. If he wakes at 5 a.m. he often won't return to sleep and starts his day.
Dr Laura (1:00:12)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (1:00:29)
Kate is very careful to stick closely to the schedule when this happens.
Dr Laura (1:00:35)
Yeah, gosh, that's a tricky one, Fallon. So a 12 hour sleep need, it sounds like the timing is roughly right. Potentially if he's having 11 hours overnight and then has an hour and a half during the day, then maybe the odd day that he's having a little bit more than he needs, which might then mean on subsequent days, he has a little bit less, you know, so it might be a bit of fluctuation between maybe
11, 11 and a half to 12 and a half, even 13 hours, perhaps at times. So I would be thinking about ensuring that that daily schedule is as strict as can be. Thinking about seven months, if he's on more than two naps, then I'd be thinking about moving him down to two naps so that the sleep pressure is getting nice and high before bedtime.
And then I would be thinking about how overnight wakes are normal. And we all wake up multiple times a night. And it's about our ability to go back to sleep when we come out of our sleep cycles and transition into the next one. That's where we often start to see problems emerging. So, okay, I would just be suggesting that when he
does wake up overnight and make some sounds, just ensure that you're not jumping in straight away to try to resettle him and just pause a moment because he might actually just be making very usual common noises, which sometimes can be a loud cry out. And then a baby or a toddler can go silent as they then move into the next sleep cycle. So if we don't wait five or 10 minutes,
Dr Fallon (1:02:06)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (1:02:30)
overnight when a baby first calls out. And we're jumping straight away. We're just not quite giving them the opportunity to practice going back to sleep. Yeah, what would you add anything to that Fallon?
Dr Fallon (1:02:41)
Hmm
Yeah, I just think, I just wonder with this case, if there is a little bit of a sleep pressure component there, because it sounds like Kate's doing an awesome job of daily rhythm matching this 12 hour sleep need. But then if some wakes are for an hour and there's lots of five or 10 minute wakes, he can't be getting 12 hours. It's got to be a little bit less. And I think, do you know what I mean? Like he probably isn't quite meeting that 12 hours and
Dr Laura (1:03:08)
That's true, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:03:13)
So I would just look at that average, take away the night wakings and see what the average sits at. and then work towards that just especially cause you know, if he does have an okay night, he might wake at 5am. It just makes me think that he's meeting, there's something going on there. There's a little drop in sleep pressure or something's just a bit off. So reassess that total sleep need Kate. it might be just some minor tweaks to that daily rhythm. And then suddenly he uses those self settling skills right through the night. Sleep pressure is high enough problem solve.
Dr Laura (1:03:26)
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:03:43)
You know, we're home and host. That's what I'm praying for, you. so yeah, I'd give that a try. And if you're not getting some traction, I would suggest a coaching call because there's something going on there and we might be able to spot it really quickly and get things on track for you. Yeah. well done to all the parents who have emailed in this week. You're all working your guts out. You're doing a great job. I love the questions that are coming in. and hopefully with the advice we've,
Dr Laura (1:03:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:04:11)
We've talked about today, you've got some good tips there to keep making progress. and we did have someone who emailed it and said, what's the best way to kind of find past questions that were asked in episodes that might be relevant to their situation. on our podcast, webpage, there's a little search bar up the top and it's actually, sometimes you go to websites and the search bar is awful. Ours is actually a really good one. I've tested it a lot of times myself.
Dr Laura (1:04:24)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:04:39)
If you put in something like, you know, low sleep needs baby, it will search through the transcripts for each episode. Not every episode has a transcript. We only started doing it maybe 20 or 30 episodes ago. But it is a really helpful way to find information you're looking for. And I definitely suggest doing that because we might have answered the question that you actually want to ask. And then you'll get a quicker response than waiting for us to do the next episode.
Dr Laura (1:04:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (1:05:05)
We also want to put a call out there as well. Are you a sleep practitioner? We know that a lot of other sleep practitioners, sleep consultants, listen in to our podcast to keep up to date with their knowledge, their knowledge around sleep and early childhood. So if you love sleep, you're a sleep practitioner, you have a passion for helping tired families, let us know if you're interested in working for us. We have...
absolutely packed clinics and we need some help. So we're looking to expand our team, which is super exciting. And we want the very best practitioners for our families. So if you are keen on something like this, shoot us through an email, sombelle at infant sleep.com.au. Let us know who you are. We'd love to have a chat. And lastly, leave us a review. If you're on Spotify, hit that, it's like a little love heart button or something like that.
Dr Laura (1:05:34)
yet.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:05:59)
Let us know that you love us. And if you're on another platform, write us a little review. We'd absolutely love it. If you need help with sleep and settling, join Sombelle book a coaching call. We can absolutely support you to get the sleep that you're looking for.
Awesome. Thanks everyone for tuning in. It's an absolute pleasure as always. And I think we've got another episode in us before the Christmas break. So I'll have to have a think about what we talk about in that episode. If there's something you'd like us to discuss, a topic you're really keen to know more on, let us know and we'll take it on board. Thanks everyone.
Dr Laura (1:06:31)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
