Dr Fallon (00:37)
Let me tell you about Cassie. Cassie had an eight month old who was waking multiple times each night. When she sought help from a well-meaning friend, she was told that bed sharing would be the best way to maximise her sleep and her baby's sleep too. Being a very dedicated mother, she started to bring her eight month old into her bed each night where he would latch on and off throughout the night.
But instead of helping, bed sharing actually caused a drastic increase in night waking. Her son was now waking eight to 10 times per night and Cassie was more exhausted than ever. But all of this turned around in under a week. And today we're going to talk about how Cassie got her son sleeping through the night in his own cot.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle pediatric sleep programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway we are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, Merry Christmas. Yeah, really. good. Yes, flat out. But,
Dr Laura (01:58)
Merry Christmas to you. How are you going in the lead up?
Dr Fallon (02:05)
I'm so looking forward to the break now. Like I kind of feel like I've already clocked off to some degree. I'm just coasting to the finish line now. How about you?
Dr Laura (02:14)
Yeah, I still got a chock-a-block week this week in the clinic, so I'm keeping everything dialed up, but I know that when Friday night comes around, I will probably fall in a heap. So just really hanging on in there.
Dr Fallon (02:18)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yep, yep, yeah, inching towards the finish line. Yeah, the clinic's fully booked, the coaching calls are packed this week. And then we're going to get a lovely break where we will be away for a week or two. We're kind of sharing the load a little bit over that Christmas New Year period. But I think it's good for our families in the clinic and Sombelle to know that we have got to
Dr Laura (02:35)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (02:53)
We're gonna try to be good, aren't we? We're trying to take a proper break, a proper mental health break where we just log off from work and fully immerse ourselves in our kids and Christmas and celebrating with family. I'm so excited though, Laura, because I get to see you on Christmas day, which is going to be amazing.
Dr Laura (02:58)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (03:13)
You're dropping your kids off in the morning at their dad's and then coming up to my house for the night and you're going to celebrate with us, which is amazing. You're kind of an honorary auntie to my children.
Dr Laura (03:19)
Yes.
And no, the last time I did it, your daughter said, you're like family now. It so sweet, really sweet.
Dr Fallon (03:28)
Yes. Yes. They're so excited that you're coming up again this year. We only get to do it every second year, don't we? But it's always so good. We've already got the request that's been lodged for the kids. They want to have the big, there's like a castle blow up thing. I think they got it a couple of years ago when you were last up with all the water cannons that spray out of it. They want that to be dragged out of the shed. So that'll be bit of fun to try and clean up.
Dr Laura (03:34)
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Yes, and I'll bring the box of quality street or celebrations or one of those things as the treat for the kids. Yeah, it will be lovely.
Dr Fallon (03:56)
Yes, it be.
Yeah, awesome. Well, I was going to try and talk you into making that amazing pavlova. You did that thing last time. What's it called? You know, the egg bit of the pavlova. But yeah, that was amazing. Best I've ever had. Yeah.
Dr Laura (04:10)
yes, I did!
Yeah, the pavlova. Yeah, yeah, that's just the pavlova. Yeah, yeah, I've forgotten about that. Yeah, okay, awesome. Well, I could use some of those duck eggs maybe that you gave me when we saw each other last weekend. I've still got some of those. Although you do have to use fresh eggs. So maybe not. Anyway, yes, absolutely. Consider the order request submitted and I will get on to that so that I can bring the pavlova up.
Dr Fallon (04:24)
Yes!
Perfect.
Amazing. We'll have to take some pictures and share them with our followers. Amazing. So yeah, look, we're gonna have extra coaching calls available in January so that families who are struggling through that Christmas period will have that opportunity for a catch up once we're back as well. But yeah, just be patient with us over Christmas. If you have a really tricky night, I'd really encourage you to
Dr Laura (04:54)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (05:01)
Go back to the Sombelle materials. There's a whole chapter on troubleshooting and we have tried to pour every single thought we've ever had into that chapter. Read over the steps again, go back to the program, use the search bar in the programs as well to look for the answers that you're looking for. And the podcast too, the search bar in the podcast. We have talked about everything in this podcast. Chances are you'll find the answer in there.
Dr Laura (05:05)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (05:28)
And then we can come back really refreshed after our little break and ready for what's going to be an absolutely massive year. We've got so much planned. Yeah, it's going to be really exciting.
Dr Laura (05:35)
Yes.
Yeah, so hang on in there people. And when we're better rested, we're better able to help you guys. So yeah, do be patient with us. We'll really appreciate it. And you will have us coming back firing on all four cylinders with lots of energy for 2025.
Dr Fallon (05:54)
Hehehehehe
Yeah, for sure. and we also wanted to ask if you guys like want to buy us a coffee. I hear this all the time on podcasts and excuse me. we've set up a buy us a coffee account for those who, you know, have, you know, a little extra and just want to show their appreciation for the podcast. we would absolutely love it. So you can buy us a coffee. We're going to put a link in the bio.
Dr Laura (06:02)
You
Dr Fallon (06:19)
And we thought, you know, we get emails all the time from members saying that we've changed their life and they're incredibly grateful. And it's so, so lovely. And we also know there are lots of people who aren't members, but who love the podcast and have had enough advice just from the podcast that they've been able to make really good progress with their child's sleep. So if you're one of those very grateful people and you can afford it, we would love it if you bought us a coffee that would really make our day.
Dr Laura (06:43)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (06:45)
because every time we record a podcast episode, it actually means we close the clinic for a full day. which is huge for a business to do. And our accountant probably thinks we're completely stupid, but we do it anyway, because we want to give back and we want to make all this advice and information really accessible to everybody. even those who can't afford an appointment or can't afford a Sombelle membership.
Dr Laura (06:51)
Yeah.
Mmm
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:09)
So yeah, for those in the community who can afford it and who want to show their appreciation, there is now a way to do that. Yeah.
Dr Laura (07:16)
Yeah, yeah, this is part of our, when we think about what our values are, we have decided that we want to give back. spent years doing research and applying for funding that was mostly government funding to do our research. And it is very hard to translate the findings from research into practice, which is why we have gone and set up Infant Sleep Australia and soon.
Dr Fallon (07:30)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (07:39)
Children's Sleep Australia. And whilst we do provide clinic appointments and people can become members of Sombelle like those of you listening, it is just part of values that we want to provide information that has been gained from government-funded research, after all, back to the community. And so we do take this.
Dr Fallon (08:00)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (08:03)
time every Monday to do the podcast and Fallon spends hours after we've recorded it doing all the post-production work and all of the social media posts and it does take hours and hours of our time. We have chosen to do that because that is where our values lie but we would really love it if you would like to buy us a coffee to say thanks.
Dr Fallon (08:21)
Yes. It always makes me laugh, Laura, when we get an email from someone saying, can I just have a chat with the producer of your podcast? Or can I talk to the person who does your marketing? And I'm like, yeah, you are. It's all very much done in the house around here. We're terrible at outsourcing stuff. Aren't we Laura?
Dr Laura (08:30)
You
You are. Yes.
Yeah, we are. We're going to get better. 2025 is a new year, new us.
Dr Fallon (08:42)
Yes. Yeah. We're bringing on staff. We're growing. It's going to be really cool. well, let's have a talk about Cassie who I've mentioned in the introduction to this podcast episode. think, you know, so often we get questions around similar kinds of themes. And I was thinking about how sometimes the families we see in clinic illustrate a lot of these things really well. And I know that it can be nice to hear somebody else's story of where they've been and where they're going.
Dr Laura (08:47)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (09:12)
Yeah, so I was thinking about this case, Cassie and her eight month old who I saw in clinic and thought we could have a bit of a chat about them today.
Dr Laura (09:20)
Yeah, yeah. So it sounds like there was a lot going on for Cassie and her baby. Why don't you tell me a little bit about what that journey had been like for Cassie before she came to see you in clinic.
Dr Fallon (09:33)
Yeah, so was a kind of a, it's a familiar story. I know we both say quite a lot, don't we, Laura, where Cassie had started bed sharing on the advice of a friend who was very well-meaning. A lot of people out there will say to you, sleep so hard, just don't be getting up to them all night. Just bring them into your bed. will make things easier. And so often it doesn't. Of course, there are people who do find it is really helpful and that's fine, but the vast majority find that
Dr Laura (09:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (10:00)
bed sharing only makes nightwakes increase, unfortunately. And Cassie was also really worried about attachment with her child. And think that's become a really popular theme amongst parents as well. She wanted to make sure her child had secure attachment and she'd read stuff about how bed sharing could increase attachment, which of course we, Laura and I know that's not true. Bed sharing doesn't actually result in any benefits to attachment at all, which I think some parents are stunned to learn.
Dr Laura (10:03)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (10:27)
Attachment is built in the daytime through how you interact with your baby, not where they sleep. So yeah, Cassie was really wanting more sleep and fewer wakes. He had been waking three or four times per night. And once they started bed sharing, that just went off the charts. We're talking eight to 10 wakes every night. He's a breastfed baby. He was latching on and off whenever he wanted. And he'd really come to be very reliant on only being able to fall asleep if he was.
Dr Laura (10:32)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (10:53)
latched on to the breast. And some parents can sleep through that. I don't know how. I'm not sure I would have been able to. Cassie certainly couldn't and she would be awake for every single one of those wakes to feed. It's just torture. She was hanging by a thread. And these are the parents I think we have to be very concerned about their wellbeing because no one can cope with eight to 10 wakes per night. It's really tough.
Dr Laura (10:55)
Mmm.
Yeah.
it's so exhausting. Yeah.
No, not, not, it's relentless. And when I see families like this that come into the clinic, oftentimes, the breastfeeding parent, usually the mum is obviously is shattered crying, because when your sleep is so disturbed, your ability to regulate your emotions just goes out the window.
Dr Fallon (11:31)
Mm.
Dr Laura (11:37)
And often parents are apologizing to, I'm so sorry, I'm crying, but they've just got lost control of your emotional regulation because you are just so shattered. And then the other parent, is often then finding it really hard because they at this point can't settle the baby. And so they are distressed as well. So I'm just wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about.
Dr Fallon (11:41)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:59)
what the appointment was like that you had with Cassie and whether her partner was there.
Dr Fallon (12:03)
Yeah, yeah, it was very much like you describe. Cassie and her wife were both exhausted. Cassie had to do all the settling. Yep. Cause this little guy was having none of his other mum in the middle of the night and was just like, get out of here. She'd been kicked out of the bed, which is another really common theme. So often one parent's been, you know, delegated to the room down the hall or the couch or something. So yeah, they were pretty distressed, really not having a good time with things.
Dr Laura (12:15)
Mmm.
yeah, yeah.
Dr Fallon (12:30)
And I think they're in that trench where it just feels like, you know, it's just gonna be impossible to change things. But of course it's not, it just feels like that. So what did we do? We looked at things like his temperament. He was a pretty happy, easygoing kid, pretty sunny temperament. But he was struggling with some crankiness and moodiness during the day at times because those nights were so fragmented. We really talked about what their goals were. So they really wanted him.
Dr Laura (12:37)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (12:55)
in his cot all night. And they wanted to reduce the night feeds, of course, the sorts of things that we see a sleep diary sometimes that we Laura and we go, yeah, pretty sure we know what the parents goal is gonna be in this case. But we always check with them because you never know. And we talked about what was gonna feel manageable for them, you know, in terms of the pace that they moved at, they felt like he would adapt better to quicker changes than to really slow drawn out gradual changes.
Dr Laura (13:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:21)
And that's really important to take into account because parents always know their babies best. I looked really closely at the sleep diary and there was a really clear sleep pressure problem in there. So some of those night wakes were happening because sleep drive was just too low. So he was constantly needing to be on the boob to keep kind of dozing. And he very clearly had what we call sleep onset association disorder, which basically just means he could not fall asleep without having to be
Dr Laura (13:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:48)
latched, like had to be latched in order to fall asleep and was never falling asleep any other way. So yeah, definite recipe for exhaustion there.
Dr Laura (13:54)
Mmm.
Yeah, my goodness. at eight months of age, feeding eight to 10 times a night, that's suggesting that he's waking up every single sleep cycle and not being able to go back to sleep. And eight to 10 feeds a night is a lot for a newborn, let alone an eight month old. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:11)
Mmm.
That's what I was about to say. Yeah. It's like, that's more than what you'd expect in a newborn. And this is going on night after night for months. Like, I don't think humans are built to cope with that.
Dr Laura (14:23)
Hmm, no. And so what was in Cassie's sleep plan for her little baby?
Dr Fallon (14:31)
Yeah, so really importantly, we had a plan to work on the timing side of things first, because if you're trying to settle a child in the cot or a baby who's not used to that and sleep pressure is low, you are going to be in for a nightmare of a time. It just doesn't work. And I don't advise anybody to try that. Fix the sleep pressure problem first, get that sleep pressure nice and high so that when you do settle them in the cot, you know, they're really ready for sleep. So
Dr Laura (14:45)
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (14:56)
He was on three naps and some of them were quite long. So we trimmed that down just to two naps, which is more appropriate for an eight month old. What else did we do? We looked at the bedtime. It needed to be pushed just a little bit later. And we just need to have a consistent wake up time each day so that we're getting a little bit more of a pattern, a reliable pattern that his circadian rhythm could kind of onto and kind of get into a good sort of flow.
Dr Laura (15:01)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (15:20)
Cassie was really keen to give him lots of hands-on support. So she wanted to get him straight into the cot, but wanted to be giving him lots of support when he was in the cot. So we used the quick fade approach, which is one of our Sombelle approaches as well. And we also had a plan in there to reduce the night feeds and increase his solid food intake. So classic case of a baby where they're having so many night feeds that they're just not that interested in solid food.
Dr Laura (15:33)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (15:45)
So he wasn't really taken to solids because he just didn't have that hunger and appetite for it. So it was just a plan to gradually reduce feeds by, you know, one feed every few nights or so. But then...
Dr Laura (15:45)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm. Yeah, often we see with these babies when they wake up in the morning, they are just not interested in brekkie. They're not interested in that first feed of the day. And it's because I've been feeding so much all through the night. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (16:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. It can really put a dent in the appetite.
Dr Laura (16:12)
All right, so that sounds like there was a lot in in that sleep plan, because there was a lot going on. So looking at the feeding, looking at the daily rhythm and looking at one way that Cassie would feel comfortable settling her baby in his cot. So tell me how it went at the follow up appointment two weeks later.
Dr Fallon (16:20)
you
Yes, well, they look like different people to start with. They were much better rested and there were far fewer tears, which is always lovely to see. But things had gone really, really well. So to start with the sleep pressure issue had resolved and that had made a huge difference. So the first few days of working on their sleep plan, they just just focused on the timing and moving around the nap times and things like that and building up that sleep pressure.
Dr Laura (16:40)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (16:59)
And Cassie said once that sleep pressure was really high, it just felt so much more manageable then to move him to the cot because he was so tired and so ready for sleep. So they did that on that third or fourth day, I think it was, they started the quick fade approach. It was bedtime. They just put him down in the cot. He wasn't happy about it because he's thinking, what are you doing? This is not where I normally sleep. But constant hands on support, patting, humming and shushing
Dr Laura (17:10)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:23)
really helped him make that transition. So Cassie was really quite surprised by the third day of doing that. They were putting him down, they'd start patting and within a few minutes he was sound asleep. No protesting, just he was fine with it. And that was really testament to how consistent they were being as well. What really amazed them was that he, on that sort of third day or so, Cassie was just like, right, I need to phase out the patting and the humming.
Dr Laura (17:35)
Wow. Yeah.
Hmm
Dr Fallon (17:50)
She decided to switch to the supported accelerated approach, which is something I'd mentioned in the appointment that they could do if they wanted quicker progress, which basically just means like patting and humming, but waiting a minute or so between those opportunities. And he adapted perfectly to that, was actually really happy to settle without so much hands-on support because sleep pressure was high and he's actually quite used to sleeping and he's cot by that point.
Dr Laura (17:52)
you
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (18:13)
so just from that, he dropped himself down to one to two feeds per night. So just getting the timing side of things right. I they weren't slowly going, okay, well now instead of 10 feeds, we'll try nine and then we'll try eight and then we'll try seven. He just went, right, no, I need to prioritize sleep now because when I'm in my cot, I really have to sleep to get my sleep needs met. and yeah, sleep pressure is high. The cot was familiar. So he was waking up in the night in his cot and you know, without the patting, but wasn't too bothered by that.
Dr Laura (18:19)
yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (18:41)
So he's having really good long stretches of sleep. Cassie said the solid food consumption drastically increased. So he dropped the night feeds, decided to replace those with more daytime calories, which is absolutely fantastic. And that gave Cassie the confidence to drop that final night feed. And he just started sleeping through and it was just, I think she said it was about day six or so that he actually just slept through the night because all of those variables we needed to take into account.
Dr Laura (18:41)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (19:09)
were taken into account. So we really just put everything in place to ensure that he had the skills, he had the sleep pressure, but also he had fantastic parents who were super consistent in applying all of these steps. And when you're really consistent, of course, babies just, they trust you. go, yep, I know what you're going to do. I know you're here for me. So it came together beautifully. Like just one of those review appointments that are just so lovely because everybody's
Dr Laura (19:11)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm. Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (19:35)
you know, done exactly what needed to happen. And, and yeah, there's this delightful little baby who's now so well rested with two parents who are, you know, having great sleep and then feeling better able to, to parent and actually enjoy the parenting. Cause I think that's what sleep deprivation does. It takes the joy out of everything, which is, it's sad.
Dr Laura (19:49)
Yeah.
Yeah, it does. Yeah. And you're constantly waiting for the next difficult settle. So you get through a bad night and then you start dreading the first nap of the day. Then you get them down. They might only sleep for a short while and then you're, they're cranky, you're cranky during their awake time. And then you start dreading the next nap. And so it is very draining in every possible way, cognitively, emotionally, physically.
Dr Fallon (20:01)
Yes, and dreading it.
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (20:22)
So that's wonderful. And you mentioned just then that Cassie's baby was then better rested. So did she report that the amount of crankiness that he had been experiencing during the day, had that changed?
Dr Fallon (20:32)
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely had reduced. Yeah. They couldn't believe how they were like, we always knew he was a happy baby, but like, this is next level. Like he's just so content coping really well on two naps. yeah, just it's amazing at difference having consolidated stretches of sleep at night can make for a baby the next day. And I think that's so important for parents to know. Cause I think often parents think, well the interrupted sleep is not impacting my baby. You know, they're, they're getting, I'm giving them the support. They're getting the sleep.
Dr Laura (20:41)
No.
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (21:03)
It's different though, when that sleep's consolidated, they really are just so much happier. And what I really loved was that Cassie and her wife were able to go out for the first date night they've had since, you know, before they had him, because Nana, Nana could put him down for bed. Good old Nana. We love a Nana. it's amazing. Yeah.
Dr Laura (21:04)
Mm. Yeah.
yeah, we do. Yeah, shout out to all the nanas out there. wonderful. So that would have just felt great for Cassie and her wife, being able to have some time reconnecting and great for Nana. She could then really have take on that role that the lots of grandparents are really looking forward to, to be able to support their own children to go out and to look after the baby.
Dr Fallon (21:29)
Mmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (21:46)
Well, that's really great. Thank you so much for sharing that with our listeners, Fallon. sounds like Cassie never would have believed that in within a couple of weeks, she would be where she ended up being. So it does show that if you do follow the songbell steps, and or you come and see us in the clinic and follow the sleep plan that we devise for you, we are using evidence based approaches that are
Dr Fallon (21:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (22:11)
we've been using in clinic for years. They are validated and you will see improvements in your baby or toddler's sleep in that way.
Dr Fallon (22:21)
Hmm. Yeah. And that's why I really wanted to share Cassie's case because absolutely everything I talked through with Cassie, the approaches we used, even though that was a telehealth case, but everything we did, that is all detailed in heaps of detail in Sombelle so that any family can read it through it. Obviously you wouldn't come up with the exact same sleep plan as Cassie, but you would use the materials to work out what your sleep plan needs to look like.
Dr Laura (22:38)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:48)
you actually can have really phenomenal results. and I think that's a difference. It's designed to help you cater to your baby. It's not like he is an approach everybody, do it. It's definitely not like that. It would never have created it. so yeah, it really does have that flexibility. yeah, you can tailor something to your child. And I think one of the really important things to keep in mind is that if Cassie had of.
Dr Laura (22:59)
No. No.
Dr Fallon (23:14)
just applied a cot settling approach, they would not have had those results. And I can't stress that enough, because I was thinking about this case and thinking, so many families will just go, no, I think the timing's fine. It's all right. The daily rhythm's fine. I won't worry about that bit of Sombelle I'll just work on the cot settling. And then they have a horrific time. And it's because you have to work on the timing. I don't care how good you think that daily rhythm is. You're checking it, because.
Dr Laura (23:30)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (23:39)
There are so few families in clinic where we don't change something about the daily rhythm. But interestingly, the ones where I'm quite, where I'm more likely to not need to change the daily rhythm. It's the Sombelle clients who have really worked through and they get it, you know, but even still, I might still look at it and go, let's just tweak this little thing. think it's going to help. so always, if you're having trouble, if settling overnight is hard, it's a sleep pressure problem. You've got to look at it.
Dr Laura (23:45)
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
Mm. Mm.
Dr Fallon (24:09)
So I think that's the main message I wanna get across to some of our families that I keep coming across is just, yeah, you gotta do that work on the timing. It pays off big time.
Dr Laura (24:14)
Yeah.
Yeah, awesome. Well, that's great, Fallon. I hope that our listeners have enjoyed listening to Cassie's journey. And if you are just at the start of your Somme Bell journey or you are considering joining Somme Bell and you haven't been sure whether to take the plunge, I hope that discussion has given you the courage to make changes to...
the sleep of your little one and yourself and your partner. So do join and do get going and soon you'll be giving yourself a lovely Christmas present.
Dr Fallon (24:46)
Mm.
Yes, yeah, maybe you'll get a date night. Yes, you'll able to get a babysitter for a change. It's so freeing, isn't it? Just knowing that you can actually get out the door or if something happens to you that someone else can step in and your child will be okay. think it's a pretty important thing to get through. All right, we've got heaps of parent questions today. So let's get our skates on with those. Shall I start with Rachel?
Dr Laura (24:52)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm
Mm, yeah.
Dr Fallon (25:15)
All right, so Rachel has a 10 and a half month old baby who has around an 11 and a half hour sleep need. He has two one hour naps, one at 9.30 a.m. and one at 2 p.m. and bedtime 7.45 p.m. But Rachel says he's waking at least two to four times per night and is up between four and five a.m. that's too early for me. She says we've started bringing him into our bed at that time as we're so exhausted. I don't blame you.
Dr Laura (25:38)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (25:45)
Getting him to sleep can take about five to fifteen minutes with shushing and patting but he wants to hold my hand or stand up and play or bounce or Rachel says sometimes I have to sway or rock him to sleep. Previously he'd go to sleep instantly as soon as his head hit the pillow, hit the cot rather not the pillow and she says he would sleep until 6 30 a.m. but then he started teething and it all went out the window.
Dr Laura (25:54)
You
Yeah
Dr Fallon (26:11)
So she wonders, is he trying to drop a nap? She's starting work in January. So Rachel's quite desperate to have his sleep back into a good routine again. What do you reckon, Laura?
Dr Laura (26:19)
Yeah, so 10 and a half months, that would be very, very young to move to one nap. So that wouldn't be my first port of call, Rachel. I'd be having a think about the daily rhythm because your baby has, he's a lower sleep needs baby, 11 and a half hours. If we think about how he's having two naps that are an hour each, that leaves the
budget of about nine and a half hours overnight. So when he is going to bed before eight, that is going to mean that he will wake early for the day. So the fact that he is waking somewhere between four and five a.m. doesn't actually surprise me because that makes sense based on his sleep needs. So I would be thinking about doing some adjustments to the daily rhythm.
Dr Fallon (26:53)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (27:15)
So a couple of things that you might look at doing is perhaps shortening that nap in the afternoon. Maybe if the naps are about an hour, his sleep cycles might be about half an hour. So I'd be thinking about having perhaps one hour in the morning and half an hour in the afternoon, lengthening that time he has awake before he goes down at the start of the night.
And that should start to drive up the sleep pressure and reduce those overnight wakes. He previously was able to fall asleep easily. And it sounds like now he's, because the sleep pressure is not quite high enough, he's starting to need more support to fall asleep. And that's when you're now shushing, patting, hand holding, he's standing up wanting to play.
Dr Fallon (27:43)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (28:01)
These are all signs that the sleep pressure is not quite high enough when you're popping him down. So I think that really, if you can adjust that daily rhythm, you'll probably be able then to get back on track, use a settling approach that you've previously used so that we get him back to falling asleep independently at the start of the night. And those overnight wakes should really start to fall away.
Dr Fallon (28:03)
Hmm.
Yeah. And I think, you know, if you're then doing an hour and a half total day sleep, you've got that 10 hour kind of chunk of sleep he's probably looking for overnight. So if you had an 8pm bedtime, you can expect him to wake up at six and I would get him up by six. What I would say though is just, it won't happen instantly. It never does. Never does. You're not going to do this one day and see an immediate result. Stick with it for a full week and it should come together. if that sleep needs being calculated properly.
Dr Laura (28:35)
Hmm.
No.
Dr Fallon (28:49)
so just know that the first few days might be a disaster and he's still waking at four or 5am and you're like, how on earth do I get through this? Just keep pushing through, push for that rhythm. and it should come together, but it's never going to happen instantly. So just know you've got to, yeah, you've got to stick with it a bit.
Dr Laura (29:00)
No.
Yeah. All right. And we have an email from Melissa. Melissa has a unique sleep needs question. And she writes, it must be. My daughter has been a 30 minute catnapper, but sometimes has a good hour or so nap during the day. And she says that now I have joined the program. I understand why. So Melissa says that her baby is a happy 13 month old.
Dr Fallon (29:10)
Must be the day for it.
you
Dr Laura (29:26)
but gets very tired, literally lays down on the floor sucking her thumb whilst playing. When I am calculating her sleep needs, which I am doing as we speak through the sleep diary, will her result be accurate if she is often tired or do I need to aim to extend those naps?
Dr Fallon (29:49)
We got this question a bit. Keep everything the same when you're doing the sleep diary. So even if you're using some sort of daily rhythm, just keep it the same. That's the best way to do the sleep diary. You'll still get an accurate estimate because it's what your child's circadian rhythm is somewhat used to. Yeah, I would just keep tracking things.
Dr Laura (30:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And this is along a similar vein. Melissa says, if I do need to extend the day in apps, do I use the advanced quick fade or her old association of rocking to sleep and save the nap at any cost? So this I think is she's talking about when she's calculating the sleep needs.
Dr Fallon (30:25)
Okay. I think it's just still a case of just keep everything as you normally would. Just don't change anything about the settling. Just do what you would typically do and just keep tracking sleep throughout. And then once you do make changes to the daily rhythm and then, you know, you've built up the sleep pressure, you've worked out the daily rhythm. That's when I would say, yeah, choose one approach and stick to it from that point onwards.
Dr Laura (30:31)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, if yeah, only that if she's always been a catnapper and is happy just having short naps then and is waking up happy, I wouldn't be trying to change it at this point. If you because you said that sometimes she's beginning to do a longer nap. So you think that maybe she has got it in her, then you could think about seeing if you could help her knit.
Dr Fallon (30:51)
Yeah, would you add anything to that?
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:16)
her sleep cycles together. So go in just before she's about to wake up. So like 25 minutes into the nap and just use the settling approach that you had chosen at the outset to, you know, just pat her perhaps and shush as she comes up into light sleep and see if she can then nip the cycle into her next one. look, it's worth giving it a try if it feels really important to you that she has a long nap.
But if she's just not interested and is happy and coping well, then just accept, doesn't matter.
Dr Fallon (31:49)
Yeah, it doesn't matter. Yeah, ignore that old trope of a cat naps not good enough sleep. It's sleep. It's all good sleep, even if it is just one sleep cycle. yeah.
Dr Laura (32:00)
Yeah, that's right. Melissa sent a follow up email that said that whilst doing my daughter's sleep diary, I noticed a pattern. Most nights she wakes at around 2.30 and then at 5.30. These were historically feeding times, but with night weaned and haven't fed for about a week. She wants to know will those wakes just go away? They're doing the advance quick fade two weeks in.
And they're finding that their baby or toddler are still very reliant on patting and shushing, but it's slowly taking less time. Listen, I feel that they probably need to keep on working, weaning off the patting and the shushing. That's often the final, that final step is really important to wean off the patting and shushing.
Dr Fallon (32:32)
Mmm.
Definitely.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (32:45)
So you have replaced the, she's no longer having those feeds, which is great because she's over a year old. She doesn't need to have those feeds overnight anymore. You have made the decision not to offer those feeds overnight, but she is still going to sleep with you doing something. And the sooner you're able to just really plow through that last step to wean off the patting and shushing, the sooner she will stop coming up into light sleep.
in the second half of the night when the sleep pressure is low wondering where you are.
Dr Fallon (33:11)
Hmm.
Yeah. And I think if it's only two night wakes, there were definitely other times in the night she's waking up and you're not there, but she's choosing to go back to sleep. So she does have some self settling skills. I would consider switching over to the advanced accelerated approach, which was just a quicker way of weaning off the patting and the shushing. you don't have to, but have a read cause it can sometimes just mean a really quick pathway to finally having those magical sleep through the night nights.
Dr Laura (33:32)
Mmm.
Mmm, yeah.
Dr Fallon (33:43)
Awesome. All right, we also had Ashlyn write in and Ashlyn says, can I first start off by saying you were spot on with your advice? Thank you. In the podcast, she says, we suggested that her catnapping four month old, who's now six months old, might need to be more grisly before putting her down for a nap. Ashlyn says, we followed this advice and also worked on cot settling using the quick fade approach.
And she says her baby can now settle in the cot and we've gone from only napping for one sleep cycle since birth to now usually getting one longer nap in the middle of the day. She says, sometimes I need to resettle, but this is relatively easy. It's been a game changer for my baby's mood and for my own sanity. Ashlyn, that makes my day. Love to hear it. It's so good. Well,
Dr Laura (34:26)
No.
Yeah, that's awesome!
Dr Fallon (34:33)
Done. know people thank us all the time, but I just think you did the hard work. You you put in that persistence with the settling. So well done. You're doing an awesome job. So Ashlyn says she has a follow-up question now about the daily rhythm. She says, whilst we often get this longer middle of the day nap now, we are far from having a rhythm. Okay. I've worked out her daily sleep need as being about 12 and a half hours. And I've looked at times of the day that her three naps should be.
Dr Laura (34:37)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (35:00)
However, I'm finding myself struggling for two reasons. The first is that her morning wake up time seems to vary sometimes 5.45 a.m., sometimes 6.30 a.m. And two, she says, I'm a bit hesitant to wake her from the morning nap if one goes a bit longer because of how long it took us to get her there. And I fear she won't nap longer in the middle of the day and then she'll be dealing with the cranky pants in the afternoon.
She says, her sleep cycles tend to be 40 minutes in length and the midday nap is usually two cycles, sometimes three, if I need to resettle her after only one. So Ashlyn says, what advice would we have to set up that daily rhythm? If she wakes early, do I just shuffle the planned times around or try to roll with a longer awake time, sorry, longer time awake to begin the day and hold onto the set times I've worked out?
And yeah, she says thanks again. She's amazed at how far they've come in just a few months.
Dr Laura (35:55)
Ashlyn, thanks for the update and for sending your follow-up question. So your baby is now six months old. So there's a couple of things that come to mind. One is that often around this age, babies do drop down to two naps, somewhere between six and seven, sometimes eight months if you've got a high sleep needs baby.
But your baby only has a 12 and a half hour sleep need. She may be getting to the point where she's ready just to have the two naps. then we can then see kind of two longer naps because the two of the naps can combine into one longer one. So that's one thing I'd be thinking about is whether she is ready to drop down to two naps. The other thing which is
will hold regardless of whether you keep her on three naps or do move her to two naps is to set a morning wake up time that's really consistent because that start time for the, it's just so important for the rest of the day. If you have a predictable wake up time in the morning, that means that your baby's body is being exposed to light at the same time every day.
Dr Fallon (36:53)
Mm.
Dr Laura (37:10)
And that sets off a whole cascade of processes that influence when she's gonna be tired that night. So having that set wake up time just sets you up for a more predictable daily rhythm. So your baby is waking up somewhere between quarter to six and 6.30, I'd probably be splitting the difference thinking about maybe a 6.15 wake up or even a 6.00 AM wake up.
Dr Fallon (37:36)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:36)
And then that's going to help her start to build her sleep pressure more consistently each day so that she's perhaps able to stay awake for two and a half, three hours before she goes down for her first nap. And then that in turn will mean that she is, she may then start to have a more consistent length nap for that first nap. And then the rest of the day just starts to follow suit. But like Fallon has said,
Dr Fallon (38:02)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (38:03)
For the previous answer, don't expect it to work overnight. So have a set wake up time, determine whether she needs to still be on three naps or perhaps she's ready to drop to two and work up the daily rhythm based on that decision and then give it a whole week and it should start to come together.
Dr Fallon (38:08)
Yeah
Yeah, I would, with that 12 and a half hour sleep need, I think my mind and a 40 minute sleep cycle as well. I'd be thinking if you're on three naps, do two 40 minute naps and one nap is an hour 20. So that's going to bring you to about a bit over two and a half hours total day sleep gives you about 10 hours in the, in the bank for overnight might be 8pm bedtime, 6am wake up. That's probably where I'd go to split it up as a rough guide. yeah, good job, Ashlyn.
Dr Laura (38:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (38:52)
And I was thinking as well when you were talking Laura, if not having a strict daily rhythm is not a problem for you, because I think some parents think, I've got to have this like perfect daily rhythm. It's not a problem for everyone. If nights are awesome and you're happy to go with the flow, that's also fine too. So that advice is really just for the parents who are like, okay, I need a bit more of a structure to the day and a bit of predictability.
Dr Laura (39:01)
Mmm.
Yeah, good point. Yeah, that's right. That's the risk of if people are kind of half listening to our podcast, and obviously we are answering a particular family's question who has she actually does want to have some predictability. So that's the question that we're answering. But that's not always the case for all families. So you need to make the decision that's best for you. And so if you're happy to go with the flow, and your baby's happy to go with the flow, then you you carry on doing you.
Dr Fallon (39:20)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (39:42)
All right, we have a question from Helen and Helen says, it's another daily rhythm one. So Helen says, I'm struggling to work out a good daily rhythm. Helen says, my main question is, how do I balance waking the baby in the morning and capping naps so that the day works with ensuring I'm providing enough sleep? My sleep need calculation has been based on a schedule which I dictate rather than my baby.
Dr Fallon (39:47)
It is the day for it.
Dr Laura (40:10)
And my feeling is that my 11 and a half month old baby is getting too tired. He sleeps through the night from between 7.45 and 8 PM until 7 AM and self settles. Well, that's excellent starting point, Helen. If I don't wake him from his naps, he would do at least one additional sleep cycle each nap. But if I let that happen,
The day would get really, really late due to the amount of time he can stay awake between naps. Bedtime would end up being about 9.30 PM. So what advice do we have, Fallon, for Helen to determine whether her baby is getting enough sleep?
Dr Fallon (40:46)
Mm.
I think Helen has done some really good investigative work because it sounds like she's tested out. what happens if I do have longer naps? And while it turns out bedtime gets crazy, crazy late. and that can mean that parents just don't get any downtime. so I think you've made the right call. Keep those naps shorter. He's sleeping through the night. Is he cranky and exhausted the entire wake window, between naps? you know, if I think, you know, we often talk about this, Laura.
If lots of babies are cranky when they wake up and seem tired, but then as soon as they're out of the car, they're perfectly happy and they'll go for hours, happy, content, settled before they start to show tired signs again. That, that baby's fine. They're getting enough sleep. It's the babies who wake up cranky and stay cranky the whole time. Nothing makes them happy. They're often wanting to be held a lot and really cranky. They're the ones where I'd be worried that they're not getting enough sleep.
Dr Laura (41:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (41:45)
So I don't think that Helen needs to worry. Cause I feel like if he was cranky all the time during the day, she probably would have said, so.
Dr Laura (41:53)
Yeah, she has said that she feels that he's getting too tired. So I mean, I would think and I there was some further information, which I just pruned just because we have so many questions to get through. I know that from Helen's email that the baby is having, there's still good chunky naps that he's having during the day. And or he would be having chunky ones if she wasn't waking him. So
Dr Fallon (41:57)
Hmm.
Mmm.
yeah okay
Dr Laura (42:21)
I think one is two hours and maybe the other one is an hour and a half. and she's, she's talking about shortening both of them. And so my suggestion would be, I think you're absolutely right, Fallon, that if your baby is absolutely fine during the waking, their waking hours, apart from maybe a little bit cranky just before you put them down, or just cranky when they wait, but then they're fine as soon as you get them out of the cot, then
Dr Fallon (42:30)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (42:47)
All is right in the world. You don't need to change anything. Helen has created a schedule, not based on her child's sleep needs, but based on what she has feels. She's dictated and then thinks that actually now maybe my baby isn't getting enough sleep. I would just say in that instance, because you haven't worked out the sleep need first, you've kind of, you've imposed one on him and you are saying he feels tired.
I would perhaps, given he's sleeping through the night, maybe just extend one of those naps and just see. Just give him one extra sleep cycle. Rather than extending both of the naps or shortening both of the naps, think of them as two separate entities. You don't have to lengthen or shorten both of them. So you could say, and I think what you've done in the past is lengthen both of them and then the nighttime has got really late. So if you were just to lengthen the first one,
Dr Fallon (43:20)
Hmm.
Yeah, yep.
Dr Laura (43:40)
there's enough time for the sleep pressure to build before bedtime and then see does bedtime push too late. You've got your answer. He doesn't need to have any extra sleep and perhaps the tiredness that you're seeing Helen is just before he goes down for his nap and it's not anything to worry about. But if you find that you increase that first nap by one sleep cycle and the bedtime doesn't push much later, it stays roughly the same and he seems better in himself. Awesome.
Dr Fallon (43:46)
Mmm.
Yeah, and that's how we kind of approach it when we work with a family and set a daily rhythm. We always say if you've had a few weeks of great nights and Helen certainly is getting great nights, trial adding maybe 30 minutes more back into the schedule somewhere at the same point each day, but do it for that full week. So you give them time to adjust. So it's a similar kind of process really. Yeah, adding 30 minutes somewhere or a sleep cycle somewhere, do it consistently.
Dr Laura (44:28)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (44:34)
Yeah, I like that idea. You pretty quickly get your answer. And I love it because you're, basically putting on your scientist hat and you're testing out a theory and you're holding all the variables consistent, but you're just adding that one little bit of extra sleep in. So yeah, I think that's really good advice, Laura. Excellent.
Dr Laura (44:35)
Yeah. Yeah, you will. You'll get...
You
Okay, should we move on to our next question?
Dr Fallon (44:56)
Yeah, so we've got Caitlin and Jared. They have a question about naps. Their baby is seven months old. She's always struggled to link sleep cycles for naps, but can do it fine at night, which is great. And they say, when we first went from three naps to two, she still wasn't linking cycles, sleep cycles, but I was finally able to resettle her so she had one longer nap per day.
However, after a month of two naps, she's now impossible to resettle after one sleep cycle. She is always happy when she wakes up in the morning, but cries when she wakes from her naps, which makes me think she wants more sleep. All of these questions are like, is it one parent emailing several different times? They're very similar problems that everybody's having this week. So yeah, she's waking up crying from her naps, which makes Caitlin and Jared wonder if she does need a little bit more sleep.
Dr Laura (45:32)
There we
Ha ha!
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (45:45)
She's happy though once she's had a feed and woken up. So should they persist in trying to extend her nap or just accept that she's a cat nap?
Dr Laura (45:53)
Yeah, I think Caitlin and Jared, you've done a great job. I would be saying she's mainly happy. I would just accept that she is a catnapper for now. And we know that she can link her sleep cycles independently. She's got those skills. She sleeps well overnight. You had that period of time where you were able to support her to do a longer nap.
Dr Fallon (46:03)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (46:20)
during the day if you resettled her, but she's just not interested now, but she's happy. So I would take the pressure off yourselves. You don't need to make sure that she has one longer nap when she is functioning so beautifully. So I would accept it and know that when she moves to one nap, that will probably be a longer nap, because it will be her two naps combined. And she will do it. She will do it if she needs that sleep.
Dr Fallon (46:25)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
100%. And I'd be feeling pretty good, Caitlin and Jared, because some babies, instead of refusing to extend their nap, just start to wake up for half an hour in the middle of the night. So, you know, they can, it's actually a good thing when they are holding their nap short themselves, because when they don't do that, they take it away from the night and the nights get really hard. So it's actually better to have this then, then more night waking. So yeah, excellent.
Dr Laura (46:55)
Yes.
Yes.
Mmm.
Good. Okay, and we've had an email from Luke and Nicole. said, thanks so much for your support through Sombelle. We're on day three of the Supported Accelerated Approach with the four and a half month old son, and it's already made such a huge difference to us. He's sleeping much better and so are we. Great to hear. Well done. So they say, I'm trying to figure out a helpful daily rhythm for him. He has a unique sleep need of 12 hours.
Dr Fallon (47:27)
Yay! yes well done that's fantastic.
Dr Laura (47:39)
with two and a half hours of that being in day naps. However, his first nap of the day is always much longer if it's in the cot than on the go. He can easily sleep an hour in the cot or car or longer if I let him, but if we are out and he's in the pram, it will often only be a 30 minute nap. It's not practical to always be home for the first nap at nine, as it's often the time of mother's group, church, et cetera.
but he won't do a longer nap at any other time of the day except in the car. Should I make his first nap 30 minutes every day and do a longer nap on the go later in the day in the car? Or should I have an adaptable daily rhythm depending on what happens with that first nap? it's a bit of a tricky one.
Dr Fallon (48:24)
Mmm.
Yeah, look, I, yeah, so I've got some caveats here. So my first thought is think about that two and a half hours as being the limit for the total day sleep and try not being too worried about how long each nap is. Just don't exceed that limit. And of course we always like the last nap of the day to be a shorter one. you could see how that goes. Like how is he, is he perfectly happy, go with the flow kind of baby, his temperament's pretty cruisy and are his nights fine?
Dr Laura (48:31)
You
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (48:56)
Or is he really sensitive to changing day naps where, if he doesn't get that long nap in the morning, you know, he's all thrown out and cranky and difficult and then the nights are hard. So temperament definitely plays into things on this one for some families, hopefully not for Luke and Nicole, but for some families, it's just so hard if their baby doesn't have that long nap that they just have to plan their day around having that long nap at home in the morning.
Dr Laura (49:04)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (49:22)
And then you've got the rest of the day to have a bit more freedom. Just know that if he is one of those babies where you do have to kind of restructure your lives a bit and it feels a bit impractical, it won't be forever. you know, he will grow up, he'll get older soon. He'll be on two naps and it all starts to shift again. So sometimes it's temporarily, we have to go to ground a little bit, go, well, this kind of sucks, but it's what we have to do to keep things on an even keel. Yeah.
Dr Laura (49:33)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm! Yeah, it won't be for long.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's really good advice, Fallon. And Luke and Nicole, if you find that he is pretty chilled and he doesn't mind either way, then just go with the flow. Know that that's your daily budget, if you like, two and a half hours, no longer than two and a half hours. But it's not your goal to aim for. But if he only has a short first nap, then you know that you've got the balance left to use in the later naps. But if he doesn't achieve at all...
Dr Fallon (50:10)
Mm.
Dr Laura (50:13)
We probably that the use of that word probably isn't very helpful either if he doesn't have two and a half hours if some days he only has two hours And is perfectly happy. That's okay. Don't sweat it Yeah
Dr Fallon (50:14)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. It's totally fine. Excellent. We have a question from Yasmin. He says, my husband and I use the supported accelerated approach to improve our cot settling. A little one does so well with it during the days. At night, it's a bit hit and miss as he is desperate for a feed. What do we do if overnight he wakes and is not due for a feed, but then doesn't settle and cries heaps for over an hour? my gosh. That's
Dr Laura (50:50)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (50:53)
Yes, she says sometimes longer. So that's a split night right there. And she says, at which point he is actually due for a feed. Okay, so he can wake up not due for a feed, cries a lot until eventually he is. She says, we chose this approach as we wanted fast results and as it has definitely helped, and it has definitely helped, but we are still experiencing multiple night wakes and are still working really hard to get it better. Thank you in advance for your openness and looking forward to hearing from you.
Dr Laura (50:56)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, daily rhythm!
Dr Fallon (51:21)
the daily rhythm. It's all, it's another case. It's perfectly sort of illustrating what happened, you know, with Cassie working through that process that if settling is going well, at some, some points of day and terrible at other points, like overnight and you're having these split nights, there is a timing issue. So always start with the timing, but anyway, I should let you answer the question, Laura. I'm just diving in.
Dr Laura (51:39)
Hmm. Yeah, no, no, that's well, that's that was my starting point as well, Falon, just to check the daily rhythm. So those long wakes an hour or longer in the night are a real. Yeah. And it's just a real flag that the sleep pressure is just not quite high enough for your baby to be able to go back to sleep when you use a different settling approach.
Dr Fallon (51:46)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep, not normal.
Dr Laura (52:06)
And often then we'll hear a parent will say, yeah, but when I do offer them the feed, they fall asleep straight away or in the past they fell asleep straight away. And now they're not. But often, you know, we're working with young babies, sleep changes so frequently, so quickly. So this change may have happened anyway, because it may have just coincided with a drop in sleep needs, for example. But we also talk about that.
Dr Fallon (52:06)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (52:31)
a kind of passenger seat analogy as well, where sometimes we can, as humans, go to sleep when the environment is just so. So if we're in a passenger seat in a car drive, I always pick the Hume, I find it the most boring highway there is, and you're there on the Hume, the sun's beating in through the window, maybe your children are asleep in the back.
and you drift off to sleep, you wouldn't normally drift off to sleep at two o'clock in the afternoon. It's just cozy, it feels nice. Yeah. And it's a bit like that when you have a baby who previously was feeding overnight and falling back to sleep when they were feeding. It's because it's cozy, it's warm, they can do it. but when we would see the effect somewhere else, you know, it may be that then they...
Dr Fallon (53:01)
It's cozy, it's warm, there's movement, yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (53:23)
Your baby, Yasmin, may have been taking 15 to 20 minutes to fall asleep for a nap or 20 to 30 minutes to fall asleep at the start of the night. And actually now those sleep onset times have reduced. So we would have seen the effects if they were having too much sleep or more sleep than they needed. We probably would have seen it somewhere in the diary, but it might not have been as painful for you as an hour long stretch in the middle of the night. So.
Check that daily rhythm. It's really in all likelihood, something needs to be adjusted a little bit there. Now, once you have that right, then think about what time it is overnight that you are offering your child a feed. maybe it's, I don't think that Yasmin says how old her baby is, but.
Dr Fallon (53:56)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (54:13)
You know, oftentimes it will be more than four hours since the last feed or, you know, if you're moving to one feed overnight, then it might just be the first time they wake up after one, for example. And then just have that time in your mind when they wake. So if you're aiming to not feed your baby until after 1am and they wake up at half 12, be flexible. You might as well just give them the feed at that point.
Dr Fallon (54:14)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (54:41)
rather than trying to resettle because then it's half an hour later, it's time for a feed. But if it is not within the realms of a reasonable closeness to the feed time, then I would be using your, I think you said you're using the supported accelerated approach, use it really consistently to support your baby back to sleep.
If you do have a night where it's all gone to pot and it does tick around so that it is now feed time, I would just wait for a brief lull in your baby's protest before you pick them up and give them a feed. It's not always going to be perfect. Then do your best to rouse them, unlatch him before he's fallen back to sleep or change his nappy so that he's going back into the cot.
and is aware of going back into the cot and then do your settling approach until he's asleep and then rinse and repeat as the night goes on.
Dr Fallon (55:38)
Look, I totally agree with you. And I think that there's every chance that if the daily rhythm is set up correctly for this baby, you just won't have those long hard resettles in the night. This baby knows how to self settle. They're doing it. I think she said they're doing it really well in the daytime. It's just at night.
Dr Laura (55:49)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (55:56)
So once that sleep pressure issue at nighttime is fixed, he's got the skills to resettle himself without a feed. So you're likely to have really quick resettles. and I think this really speaks to, I think there are some parents who joined Sombelle and who go flick past all the initial stuff and go straight to the cot settling. and then try cot settling and go, this isn't
Dr Laura (56:00)
Hmm
Dr Fallon (56:16)
isn't helping, it's not working or it's really, really hard. And it's because they've skipped past all of the really crucial stuff around the unique sleep needs chapter. Do not miss that chapter. Just don't miss it. If you don't work through that and work on the daily rhythm, you will have a hell of a time with cot settling. It will be so difficult that I just would not miss working on that daily rhythm. It is that important. I would say it's the magic sauce, you know, that makes all our approaches work so well.
Dr Laura (56:26)
Mmm.
Mm. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Dr Fallon (56:45)
yeah, it's just, it's so, so, so crucial. So Yasmin worked through that chapter, work out the sleep needs and start to really closely tailor, every day to those sleep needs. You'll get that increase in sleep pressure after a few days to a week. and because you've done that hard work on the self settling, he will start to use those skills and dropping those night feats will not seem anywhere near as hard.
so yeah, well done, Yasmin, you have worked so, so, so hard without having that sleep pressure there. So you have been in the trenches, you have really worked hard and you've been so determined that will pay off once that sleep pressure is, is where it needs to be. and if you need help working through that, we can always help you in a coaching call. Cause some, for some parents, it is a really tricky thing to, figure out. So, yeah, you've got that support if you need it. Yeah, definitely.
Dr Laura (57:10)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, let us know how you get on, Yasmin. We had one final email and it's actually just an update. There isn't a question. But I just thought it would be nice to mention. So Fiona wrote in with a little update and she says that she's been lucky that the questions on the podcast in the last two weeks could often have been written by me, she says. So that's nice. She says, I also wanted to comment regarding the barbed wire thinking episode.
I have tried your try to stay awake strategy and cannot believe how well it worked.
Dr Fallon (57:54)
Mmm.
Yeah, it's so good that one just takes the pressure off and then before you know it, you're asleep. I absolutely love it. Thanks so much for your time for writing in and for your support. Absolutely love it. Well, to wrap us up today, don't forget you can buy us a coffee or what's a more festive drink. Maybe it's a cup of a glass of wine. Eggnog. I've never tried it. Sounds revolting. Sure. Buy us some eggnog. We'll take anything.
Dr Laura (58:19)
eggnog eggnog
I'll bring some up on Christmas Day, Fallon
Dr Fallon (58:28)
All right. I'm game. Yeah. So if you want to buy us a coffee, we're going to pop a link in the show notes. It's super quick and easy to do. And we're super thankful to anyone who does do that. We hope you all, you know, are really feeling okay and feeling good heading into that Christmas period. And I think keep in mind that so many families choose Christmas and New Year when both parents tend to be around home to, excuse me, to work on sleep. So if you've been having sleep troubles, it's a great time.
to just dive in, use the Sombelle resources and make a good amount of progress before we're back into the craziness of a new year and back to work and all of that. If you're a sleep practitioner who listens to us and loves what we do and you think, gosh, I'd like to work for those two ladies, then let us know because we are growing our team in 2025. We'd love to hear from you.
Dr Laura (58:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (59:19)
and if you can please leave us a review, join Sombelle subscribe to the podcast by us, a cuppa, all of these little things. They really, really help. So, if you're on your podcast app right now, just take that little love heart button or write us a little review makes us super, super happy. And we've got like crazy number of five star reviews on Spotify. Like thank you to everyone who has done that. is awesome. so that's where we're going to close it off.
Dr Laura (59:25)
You
Yeah.
Yeah, thank you so much.
Dr Fallon (59:46)
for the week. Thanks everyone for tuning in and take good care.
Dr Laura (59:50)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
