Dr Fallon (00:37)
Secure attachment is built through warm, responsive interactions between parents and their children. We often hear parents' voice concern that having their child sleep in a cot or a bed will somehow damage their child's attachment. These parents often feel that they must bed share with their children and hold their children for their naps. For some parents, of course this works really well. Parents enjoy it, their children do too, and everyone's happy.
But for other parents, it's simply not plausible to constantly hold or share their bed with their children. And that's perfectly okay too. Secure attachment is built in daytime interactions, not during sleep. Today we will unpack what the science says about where your baby sleeps and their attachment style. So you can ditch the guilt and make decisions that work for you and your family.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle paediatric sleep programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. We are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Hey Laura!
Dr Laura (02:04)
Hi Fallon, how are going? Yeah, well, we're halfway through the long summer holidays. So we're both just hanging on in there, trying to see as many Sombelle clients as we can whilst also parenting. So it's a juggle that I think that many of our listeners won't yet be having because their babies aren't, or their babies, so they're not yet at school. But it does make this time of year particularly interesting, doesn't it?
Dr Fallon (02:05)
Yeah, I'm good. How are you?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah.
It does. was telling someone yesterday, she was saying, are you working tomorrow? I said, yeah, I'm recording the podcast. And she said, Oh, what are the kids do? And I was like, Oh, they're just in the house. They're just entertaining themselves. And she was like, and I was thinking, it's just what has to happen when you're a working parent. Obviously my children are old enough to be in the house on their own. And the house is literally right behind my office. So they know they can come and bang on the door if they need me.
Dr Laura (02:54)
Yes.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (03:01)
But yeah, the juggle, it never ends.
Dr Laura (03:03)
No,
it doesn't. And I've got a house full of guests coming in a few hours for a party. So yeah, that's going to be fun as well. So just add in a few birthdays in this period of time. Just take it up a notch or two. You also have a birthday around this time as well, don't you? Not your own, but a family birthday. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (03:19)
Yeah.
Yes, yep. So
it's yeah, always a bit of a fun juggle in January. It's I remember thinking when my kids were moving into school, I was like, this is going to be so much easier than childcare, you know, like it's cheaper, generally, not always, but generally cheaper than childcare. And you know, this like they're going to be sort of, it's going to be easier. It's not easier when they're in school. Not at all. These long school holidays, that it just does not work at all with work hours and yeah, all of that. But
Dr Laura (03:40)
Yeah.
No.
Dr Fallon (03:55)
Anyway, it's okay when they're older they can be left to their own devices a little bit more and mine are really happy getting their full of screen time right now. Yeah, they don't mind at all. So Laura, this week's episode we had an email in from a parent which we'll discuss a little bit later on but we wanted to really talk about attachment because it's something we get questions about all the time.
Dr Laura (03:59)
Yes.
Yes, mine too.
Dr Fallon (04:23)
So often parents will say to us, I'm, you know, I have to co-sleep with my baby because I want them to have secure attachment. And I know that co-sleeping is how I'm going to get secure attachment. And when we hear that, you and I kind of have to go, let's talk about that a little bit more. Cause it's not actually the case, but there is a lot of misinformation out there that leads parents to think that they really have to do it to have that secure attachment.
Dr Laura (04:45)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, that's right. When we're thinking about attachment, what we are referring to as a theory that was proposed back in the 1950s by a psychologist called John Bowlby, who recognized that there's an important emotional and psychological connection between children and their adult caregivers. And this is known as attachment.
And so what we all as parents are striving for is to ensure that our children have a secure attachment to us as their caregivers. And by doing that, that means that they feel safe, that you as a primary attachment figure are their safe haven, and they can go, they can explore from you.
They can step away and explore in a developmentally appropriate way, be it looking away from you and looking around the room, or as they get older, crawling away from you. And then that they know that they can look back, they can check back in with you and come back as a safe haven for protection, security, care, nurturance.
And that's really what attachment is about that we as parents are helping our children through, it goes through developmental stages, but ultimately we are supporting them to become independent from us. And it starts from birth and it continues in those early years of life.
Dr Fallon (06:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah and there's multiple different styles of attachment but we won't go into all those because we don't have time there's probably an episode on each style but the main one that parents are concerned with is that their child has secure attachment to them. We know that secure attachment has positive outcomes for children and no doubt the parents in that dyad as well. So yeah so
Dr Laura (06:36)
No.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (06:54)
Secure attachment really is built through just the everyday interactions that we have with our children and there are some sort of core components to that. I think the real number one thing is responding consistently to your child.
Dr Laura (07:05)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (07:10)
If your responses are very erratic and change all the time, that can feel pretty unsettling to most children. So really thinking about that consistency in your response to your child.
Dr Laura (07:10)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
And also being attentive to your child's needs and responding and being calm around your child. That's also a really important element of building that strong attachment.
Dr Fallon (07:40)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's like, you know, parents who are responding in a kind of erratic way or without that calm. I mean, it's sort of about remembering you're the parent. You can be the calm force around, you know, the house if you're really erratic in your responses or tend to really fly off the handle easily. Yeah, that can be a big challenge for children to understand and deal with. And I think a really important component to
Dr Laura (07:55)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (08:07)
which I think most parents are aware of, is using touch, that gentle, reassuring touch is so important, especially with really little babies. And that's why we say, in those first few months, you're going to be holding your baby a lot.
Dr Laura (08:13)
Mmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:20)
interacting with them a lot like it's the most natural thing in the world to be really hands-on with your very little babies because that's what they really need and even as they get older look I know we can both speak to our teenagers they still need gentle reassuring touch they still need to come in for a big bear hug and you know get that physical affection as well
Dr Laura (08:27)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes, and using warm vocal tone. Not all of the time, particularly when we're about teenagers, and toddlers who we need to, if we have to use a sharp tone to stop them from running in the road or doing something dangerous, then that is appropriate. But just as a general rule, using warm tone when you're speaking to your child, combining that with that lovely, gentle, reassuring touch, just helps them feel secure. It helps them learn what to expect.
Dr Fallon (08:47)
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (09:13)
and that their needs will be met in a calm, predictable fashion.
Dr Fallon (09:19)
And one of the key parts of your PhD Laura, which again we can't dive into unfortunately because it would need a whole episode, but was about that the communication between infants and parents and taking turns when your baby coos at you, you wait for your turn and coo back and yeah it's that lovely sort of interaction where it's a two-way exchange. So good for babies and toddlers and you know.
Dr Laura (09:30)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely. So
that eye contact and then repeating the sounds that they make or the words that they say as they get older, extending the words that they say, and really taking the time to delight in those interactions with your baby and toddler. Because they love that, you that you were modeling to them what a happy, safe relationship looks like.
Dr Fallon (09:51)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (10:09)
And when they see that you delight in them just for being, how good is that for setting the foundations for how they expect to be treated by friends and other people around them as they grow?
Dr Fallon (10:10)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes, it's a beautiful thing and just the act of waiting for them to finish their babbling or cooing before you start to repeat it back is showing them that they have an important voice and you care about that important voice as well. And of course, it doesn't always have to be perfect, which is something we will touch on later. We can't always be constantly engaged and that's okay too. But I think the final sort of core tenet of having secure attachment is meeting your baby's physiological needs. So babies and
Dr Laura (10:33)
Yeah.
No.
Dr Fallon (10:53)
toddlers and children need to know that you're going to make sure you know they're fed when they're hungry that you're going to care for them if they're in pain or unwell and a really important part of secure attachment is also sleep. Sleep is one of our core physiological needs so you know giving them the opportunity to sleep when they need to.
and engaging in play as well. So there's kind of a lot to digest there but I think the majority of parents would be nodding along and going yeah I do that, you know, I do these things.
Dr Laura (11:14)
Mm.
Yes!
Dr Fallon (11:23)
And maybe we will jump to that point around how often you've got to do these things. What we know from the research is you only kind of need to get it right about 50 % of the time. So your child's going to have secure attachment. Even if sometimes you muck up or sometimes you have a really bad day and you're just cranky and you don't want to talk to your baby. You know, it happens. We have tricky days. You don't need to feel guilty about that.
Dr Laura (11:38)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (11:48)
It's also impossible to be 100 % engaged with your children for every waking second and as they get older they'll certainly grow to hate you if you try to be. They'll be slamming the door and saying get out of my room before you know it.
Dr Laura (11:53)
Mm-hmm.
They will. And then actually what
we're thinking about as children get older, know, they'll get beyond babies and toddlers is the importance of repair in our interactions with our children. So of course, yet we're only expected to get it right 50 % of the time, which means 50 % of the time, we're not getting it right. And that's okay. As they get older, what we then do is repair when those
Dr Fallon (12:14)
Mm-hmm.
It doesn't matter.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (12:31)
interactions aren't as great as we would have liked, you know, so then saying, well, okay, I, gosh, I flew off the handle, didn't I? I, sorry, I shouted at you. These are the reasons why, but I know that would have been hard for you. And then letting them have a chance to respond and how it did feel for them. So then eventually when they are slamming the door at you, they can come out later and go, I'm really sorry, I slammed the door.
Dr Fallon (12:42)
Hmm.
Yes.
you
Yes, and they
know it's not the end. It's not the end of a relationship if there is a door slamming. Like, and they grow up to be really emotionally healthy adults who can apologize and who know it's not the end of the world if there is one negative interaction with another human. Yeah, that's how we raise really healthy, emotionally mature adults. Yeah, it's brilliant. So I think one of the questions we get as well from parents is like, how do I know that my baby has
Dr Laura (13:01)
Mm. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (13:27)
secure attachment because look attachment matters right across childhood but certainly parents seem more concerned with it during those first few months in sort of babyhood. What are some of the things we'll be looking for Laura?
Dr Laura (13:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, so general rule of thumb that from around four weeks of age, if your baby is responding to your smile, then that's a sign that they're developing secure attachment. And that's beautiful, isn't it? When they are, when you get those first smiles from your baby and that they, when they're interactive smiles, it's not, not justice, you know, that they smile, they see you smile, they smile, you stop smiling, they might giggle.
Dr Fallon (14:03)
Yeah
Dr Laura (14:08)
and to try and get you to then respond again. It's beautiful.
Dr Fallon (14:09)
Yeah
Yeah, and that's usually around three months when they're really starting to smile back at you. And around about that sort of four to six month mark is when they'll start to really turn towards you and expect you to respond when they're upset. I think one of the key things, and I see this all the time in appointments, even via telehealth, when parents are holding their baby and I see the baby and I go, Oh, hello.
Dr Laura (14:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (14:36)
aren't you gorgeous? I say something, you know, along those lines and the babies will turn and they'll bury their heads into their parent because they're turning towards that parent who they have that secure attachment. They go, I don't know that face. They're talking at me and I suddenly feel seen and I can turn towards my parent to feel more secure in this interaction. Perfect example of a child who's attached.
Dr Laura (14:56)
Yes. That is a perfect example. as
they get older as well, Fallon, where they will, in that interaction that you're describing, I see babies, I'll turn in towards their mum or dad, and then they look up to their mum or dad, smile at them, they are looking to see is mum or dad smiling back, because that tells them that it's safe. And then they look back. And that's the exploring, they look back and smile at us.
Dr Fallon (15:15)
Yes.
Yes.
Dr Laura (15:22)
And
then we smile back, that feels nice. And then they look back again at their parents.
Dr Fallon (15:26)
Yes and you'll see
them looking constantly at their parents face because if their parent shows anxiety or fear or worry then babies will typically start to really fuss they won't want to look at whatever it is that they were worried about.
Dr Laura (15:40)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (15:40)
And they will try to turn into their parents and often get quite sad. So they are so led by what we are doing. So if your baby seems unsure and is checking in on you and looking at your face to see your reaction and you know that this is a situation that is safe, like, it's just grandma and we haven't seen her in a couple of months or something like that, then you're going to show them that you're calm and you're happy with your face and that's going to help your baby warm up quicker. It's called modeling. You know, we...
Dr Laura (15:46)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (16:05)
as children, we all look to our parents to kind of gauge what's safe and what isn't. So being that calm parent when it's appropriate is, yeah, absolutely a great thing to do. Excellent. So I think the next point is, know, harking back to that question parents often ask us around, you know, should I be co-sleeping with my baby to make sure they've got secure attachment or with toddlers or older children?
Dr Laura (16:08)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (16:31)
it's really important to know that we don't build secure attachment during our sleep. And it might sound obvious, but when we're asleep, we're not conscious. So we're not picking up on those interactions around us.
Dr Laura (16:40)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (16:44)
But what's really important to note is 100 % secure attachment can be built in the lead up to sleep. And there's some great research by Mindell and Williamson, I think it was 2018. I did write it down somewhere, but of course I can't find my notes now.
Dr Laura (16:51)
Hmm.
Mm. Yeah.
Yeah, no, it is. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:02)
But they were looking at different factors influencing sleep and attachment and bedtime, things like that. And their suggestion is that bedtime routines that include things like having cuddles and singing could be reading or just other positive interactions between a parent and a child is a really cool moment. Because I think so often we have these really busy days, but often it is that lead up to bedtime where we have that consistent bedtime routine.
where, and I know I speak for myself when I say this too, that's when we tend to supercharge all the lovely positive interactions and tell our children how much we love them. And it's a great thing to do because children who get their fill of those positive interactions in the lead up to bedtime tend to sleep better. Again, a whole other episode would dive into, you know, if they're having those interactions until they're completely asleep, that can cause more night waking, but just building it into the routine before
Dr Laura (17:58)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (18:00)
settle to sleep is such a positive thing.
Dr Laura (18:04)
Yeah, and having that really lovely consistent bedtime routine, again, it's establishing some predictability and rhythmicity to your baby and toddlers and child's day. And when we are looking at supporting our little one to go to sleep or to sleep in a different way or to sleep somewhere else, just having those cues
that are calming and predictable in the form of that lovely bedtime routine can just be really reassuring. And it's a lovely thing to have towards the end of the day for your child.
Dr Fallon (18:41)
Hmm
Yeah, and if you're worried about, you know, is if my baby's sleeping in the cot or the bassinet or my toddler's sleeping independently in their bed, are they going to have less secure attachment or a different attachment style? And what I would say is that if that were the case, if babies and children sleeping in on a separate sleep surface resulted in some impact to the quality of attachment.
that would be seen in the data. It would be very clear in the data. There's been a lot of studies tracking children's development, thousands of kids over the years, but it's just not something that is seen. So just know that if you are, you know, settling your baby in a cot or your toddler in a cot or a bed, or maybe you're moving towards that, that's something that you want to achieve and you're worrying about how you're going to do it. Just know that it's not going to impact their attachment where they sleep. It's about those interactions and thinking.
Dr Laura (19:16)
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (19:41)
Am I building a lot of these beautiful positive interactions into the day, into the bedtime routine? And then if you go to settle them in their cot independently, that's okay. It's not going to harm their attachment.
Dr Laura (19:45)
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. And
the research evidence shows us that there's no link between cot settling, bed sharing, baby wearing, and attachment style. So the important things are being a responsive and caring parent and using those strategies that we've just discussed, building that secure attachment during the day. And it really would not...
Dr Fallon (20:04)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (20:22)
going to, you are not, as parents, you're not going to be damaging attachment if you would like your child to sleep in a cot or a bed, you know, their own sleep space.
Dr Fallon (20:32)
Yeah, 100%. And I think as well, you we are, you and I, Laura, we are so invested in children's wellbeing. Like we want all the little babies and all the toddlers and all the preschoolers to be doing really well. And that's why when we develop the approaches that we use in the clinic.
Dr Laura (20:45)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (20:48)
the approaches that we use in Sombelle we really built those approaches around the core tenants of what actually promotes secure attachment. So if you're using any of our approaches, you are not going to be doing anything that is going to harm attachment. And in fact, a lot of the things you'd be doing would serve to improve it. You you're making sure they're getting the quality sleep that they need. But in lots of other ways as well, all of our approaches will require you to be really responsive to not be
Dr Laura (20:57)
Mm.
No.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (21:18)
leaving your baby alone and upset for long periods of time. We're always banging on about consistency like a broken record. Choose one way of settling and stick to it because that's so reassuring for your baby, even if at first it doesn't seem to be and they're like really cranky, like what am I doing in my cot? When you just calmly persist, you model that calm behavior yourself and you use one approach over and over, you're showing them that
Dr Laura (21:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (21:45)
bedtime and the world in general is a consistent place that you're going to make sure they have a consistent experience and that does start to be reassuring.
Dr Laura (21:54)
Yeah, and
when you're using a gentle and reassuring touch, and so all of our approaches involve physical reassurance, and so you're using that touch consistently, it's very, very reassuring to babies and toddlers, even like you were saying, Fallon, if there's a learning period initially where they would prefer a different type of touch, you know, be it feeding to sleep or being bounced on a football, for example.
Dr Fallon (22:20)
Mm.
Dr Laura (22:22)
If you're always using a gentle, consistent, reassuring physical interaction approach, they will learn that that means it's a cue for bedtime and it's mum or dad is doing this consistently. It's gentle, it's nice, it's something to not to be worried about.
Dr Fallon (22:43)
Yeah, and you can definitely build in that warm vocal tone as well. Like we often say to parents, it might be that at bedtime to help signal to your child that it's time for sleep, you might say, good night, darling, it's time for sleep. But I often say to parents, like turn that into your own words. What do you want to say to your child? Keep it consistent still. But maybe you want to say, you know, I love you, my darling, you know, sleep well, whatever sounds natural to you and whatever meaning you want to
Dr Laura (22:47)
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:13)
convey
to your child is great. We definitely want you to tailor all of these things to really fit your child. I think, just know that you can have confidence that with any of these approaches, you can even think through yourself, am I being responsive? Am I being calm? Am I being consistent? Am I using touch? Am I using vocal reassurance as well? And if you can tick those boxes then.
Dr Laura (23:15)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (23:38)
you know it's absolutely fine to persist with the approach that that you're using.
Dr Laura (23:43)
All right, great. So shall we move on to parent questions now, Fallon? And perhaps I can read out the question that, yeah, we have got a lot, yeah. And I'll start by reading out the question that inspired us to talk about attachment. So that was Eleanor.
Dr Fallon (23:47)
Yeah, we've got a lot this week.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (24:01)
And her question did inspire the topic of this podcast. Now, Eleanor recently joined the Nought to Three Month program and writes that she is curious about how our slow tapered approach works with establishing a secure attachment. Eleanor says, my understanding is that close contact with the baby is best for promoting a secure attachment and that baby wearing helps with this. My baby loves to sleep when I'm wearing her.
However, the downside is at night she refuses to go into the cot. I'm on step one of the slow tapered approach and have tried putting my baby down in the cot after getting them to sleep using our four new sleep associations. For us, the prior technique had been in a carrier bouncing on a fitness ball. When she falls asleep in this way and we try to put her in the cot, she automatically wakes up. How do we do a reset?
or how can we move forward and out of step one of the programme if this keeps happening?
Dr Fallon (25:01)
Such a fantastic, fantastic question. So first of all, let's think about the idea of secure attachment. So it absolutely happens when your baby is awake, as we've already discussed, and holding your baby. Of course, a little baby, this is a newborn, is great for attachment. They need to be handled and held and cuddled, and that's all perfectly fine. Baby wearing in itself isn't necessarily going to increase your chances of having secure attachment.
Dr Laura (25:04)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:31)
about
how you're baby wearing too because sometimes when the baby's in a carrier they actually can't really get a great look at your face and it can be harder to interact with them so if you're not into baby wearing all I would say is you know that's that's totally fine you can still be holding a baby having all those lovely positive interactions.
Dr Laura (25:39)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:50)
Yeah it doesn't, you carry them a lot, use the baby carrier but don't think that you know it has to be during their sleep because wearing them during the sleep isn't necessarily going to change attachment.
Dr Laura (26:01)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (26:02)
The second thing about this question that I would address is for Alanor's baby they are falling asleep with a whole lot of bouncing and typically anything like that that stops during sleep will wake us. It's a like if you fall asleep and there's a lab party going on next door when they turn that music off you'll wake up because there's a sudden absence or something. So I would be thinking about practicing settling her to sleep so for that step one you're still holding her to sleep but do it without the bouncing. So really focus
on holding her and doing your padding and your shushing until she sleeps. And I'd also be thinking about making sure her position, so what we're trying to do is build in a lot of scaffolding to make this transition to cot settling as easy as possible for the baby. So part of that scaffolding can be that you stop bouncing her to sleep and she learns to fall asleep in your arms with lots of padding and shushing, still very well supported. Once you've done that it might be that then you work on
Dr Laura (26:36)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (26:59)
holding her sort of more in a flat position across your body so that the pressure is on her back. Definitely not holding upright because upright is very different to being in a cot. So practice having her more on her back and your arms still with the padding and shushing. So this is definitely an approach for the ones who take a very, very slow approach. But that's then going to mean that then at that point when you're putting her into the cot,
Dr Laura (27:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (27:25)
she's had some experience of falling asleep with the pressure more on her back than on her front, with being flat instead of upright, with being still instead of bounced, but all that time she's been getting used to that, she still was in your arms, she still had you very close, she still had padding and humming. So I'd work on those things and then you'll find that when you do make that move to putting her in the cot and padding and humming her off to sleep in there instead.
Dr Laura (27:40)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (27:51)
it's much more likely that she'll manage that transition more easily. She might still get upset, a lot of babies will, every little change we make they get really cranky about it, but that's your baby looking at you and sort of asking that question, is this okay? And when you calmly respond, you smile at them, you tell them they're okay and you give them that support, you're answering them and saying, yes, you're okay. Would you add anything to that answer, Laura?
Dr Laura (27:55)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I love that.
I just, I love that. That's such a lovely response, Fallon. And for Eleanor, just know that you're a kind, caring, positive parent to your new little baby. And you've already introduced those four new sleep associations. That's awesome. So when we're thinking about that secure attachment, we're thinking about predictability in your baby.
seeing with repeated exposure that you are always responding to her needs in a really consistent, predictable way. And that will help her feel secure with you. So even then, when you do move through the steps of that approach, and you do start to pop her down into the cot before she's fully asleep, and then you're doing the physical touch and the vocal reassurance in the cot.
that is, it makes her feel secure. So we're just kind of layering in these behaviours so that it all just really supports her as we walk her towards becoming a little bit more independent in her sleep when it's safe and okay to do so for you as a family and for your little baby.
Dr Fallon (29:18)
Hmm.
yeah
yeah and if you're listening in and you've got a little baby and you're just like absolutely not I do not want to work on cot settling you don't have to because I think that's the thing that we'll get people in the comments coming at us like why are you saying this parents you just we're just saying if that's what you want to achieve and if that's what you need to do you want to get them settling in the cot
Dr Laura (29:44)
No. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (29:55)
you can do it and you can do it in this incredibly well supported way. Other parents will want to move much quicker and other parents will not want to move at all and that's totally fine. It really is a personal call to make. Yeah, but well done, Eleanor. You're doing a really good job.
Dr Laura (29:59)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (30:12)
Alright so then we had a question from Sophie C. She has a question about her almost three year old who should like to transition to a big bed and to stop using the dummy. So Sophie asks would you ditch the dummy while he is still in his cot or move to the bed and then ditch the dummy?
Dr Laura (30:33)
So Sophie, would be thinking about, I know this, the email that Sophie sent through Fallon had a little bit more information about how he's definitely ready to come out of the cot because he has started to climb out of, he started climbing out of his porter cot. He hasn't done the, actual cot yet, but he, all the signs are there that in other, when he's sleeping in other places, he tries to get out. we.
It's that you're making the right choice that for safety from safety point of view, we do need to move him to the big bed. So I would say that that is the priority. And I would be trying to keep everything else as much the same as you can before you do the move to the bed. And that would mean keeping the dummy. He loves the dummy at the moment. It's a sleep association. So to ease the transition to the big bed, because we have to do that now, keep the dummy.
Dr Fallon (31:19)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (31:28)
move him to his big bed, let him have that support of the dummy, and then further down the track when he's entirely used to sleeping in his bed, then I would look at introducing the idea of a dummy fairy. You can get some great books from the library about saying goodbye to the dummy, and then take that, because we were talking about scaffolding earlier, kind of, you would then take that scaffold away, but to do it now might make it harder for that transition to the big bed.
Dr Fallon (31:57)
Yeah,
I 100 % agree. No hurry to get rid of the dummy and when you are ready to do it, there's some great resources and ideas in Songbell as well about how to do it and I love building in that narrative. It might be the sleep fairy or maybe the Easter bunny is coming soon to give that dummy to the little babies in the hospital. It can really help to have a, yeah, some narrative around why the changes are happening. Good.
Dr Laura (32:16)
Yeah.
Okay, so we
have our next question from Naomi. Naomi says, we're doing the slow fade approach with our nine month old and we're now on step two. At night, she goes to sleep really quickly with pats and shushes in the cot. What we are struggling with is the daytime settles, which take 30 to 40 minutes. Naomi describes how her baby will show a lot of tired signs for the naps, but as soon as I put her in the cot, she does one of two things. She's either super energetic and won't settle.
and after half an hour they just get her up and try again later or she immediately starts screaming. And if that happens, Naomi says she alternates patting and cuddling on and off for 20 minutes before she then offers a breastfeed. Then she does the pats and cuddles again until her baby finally falls asleep in her arms usually. That sounds exhausting, Naomi.
Dr Fallon (32:54)
Yeah.
Okay.
Hmm.
Yeah. Challenging.
Dr Laura (33:18)
Outside of this Naomi's baby is happy and bubbly. So Naomi writes, I'm wondering how I can make it easier to settle her in the cot for naps. Her crying is really triggering for me. Do we just need to persevere or do we need to dial it back and introduce settling a little slower or up the ante and change our approach? Naomi adds that her baby's sleep needs are around 11 hours.
Dr Fallon (33:31)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:44)
She's having between an hour and a half and two hours daytime sleep across two naps. And she says around 10 and around three in the afternoon. She's going to bed at around nine and waking up at seven. And she has two feeds overnight. So what do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (34:00)
Okay, there's a bit to
unpack here. So I guess you know you're aiming for about a 12 hour total sort of sleep opportunity per day and she's averaging around 11 hours so that could be fine if you know you're happy to keep two feeds going overnight you're gonna allow a bit of time for that. I think you know you could
Dr Laura (34:22)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (34:25)
One thing I would consider is maybe even just dialing back the day sleep a little bit, trying to keep more to an hour and a half than to two hours total day sleep. That could make a bit of difference. It could be a case of...
Dr Laura (34:34)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (34:37)
know maybe that first nap of the day since sometimes it can be 30 or 40 minutes before she settles maybe push that one 30 minutes later or so so just consistently trying for a bit later in the morning might be that there's a bit more sleep pressure build up and then she nods off a bit more easily and don't be afraid to just do maybe that second nap is just on the go because often the second nap is a trickier one if she'll settle easily in the pram or the cot sorry pram or the car
Dr Laura (34:45)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (35:03)
maybe just give yourself a get out of jail free card and plan that one to be on the go for now. But then of course thinking about kind of the broader context with what Naomi's describing.
Dr Laura (35:06)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (35:14)
I would say keep working towards that point where you can put it down, say goodnight and wander away. So at the moment Naomi's baby is reliant on padding and shushing to fall asleep. And what you might find is that if you can phase out the padding and the shushing, my goodness, spit it out. If you can phase those things out.
Dr Laura (35:31)
You
Dr Fallon (35:38)
You might then find that yeah, she settles off to sleep really quickly. So sometimes they can get in a little bit of a I call it the kind of escalation trap where they kind of go well.
If I really keep arcing up, maybe lots of different things will happen. And for Naomi's baby, she knows, well, if I do this for about 20 minutes or so, I might get a lovely feed and then I can fall asleep in mum's arms. So that could be part of it that you're getting a lot of resistance because she's thinking, sometimes, you know, I do get this additional feed. You could stick with the same approach you've been using and gradually phase it out.
Dr Laura (36:03)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (36:10)
But yeah, I mean, you can absolutely consider other approaches too, because a lot of parents at this point will go, but they're so used to falling asleep in their cot now. What I might do is move to more of a supported accelerated approach that has a little bit quicker progress, but you're still around, still giving plenty of reassurance, but then develop that independence a little quicker. So lots to unpack. Have I missed anything, Laura?
Dr Laura (36:22)
Mmm.
No, I think that you've covered everything there, Fallon. Naomi, if you feel that your little one needs that extra breastfeed, I would just be thinking about at nine months old, maybe seeing if you need to add a snack or something before she goes down for that nap so that you're not then thinking that perhaps she's hungry after 20 minutes of trying to settle her.
Dr Fallon (36:55)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:02)
So it could be that she's having, you know, breastfeed in the morning, then she's having brekkie, then she's having a morning tea, and then she's going down for the nap. And then you can rule out that she's hungry as well.
Dr Fallon (37:10)
Yeah.
great
idea. I love that, that's a really good idea. Samantha also emailed, she says her baby is 11 months old and has around about a 12 hour sleep need. Samantha says we use this supported accelerated approach and now he's usually asleep within five minutes. He usually sleeps through the night or wakes just once for a five to ten minute resettle. Wow, good job Samantha, that's great. So Samantha has a few questions and we'll go through these one at a time.
She says, occasionally there are times where it takes up to an hour to settle him if he wakes up during the night. Sounds a bit like a split night. What might be causing him to occasionally still be having tricky long settles? We don't think there are any environmental issues.
Dr Laura (37:52)
Mm.
Yeah, any wakes that are kind of longer than half an hour, definitely getting towards an hour in the night, we do tend to think of those as split nights. And look, if they're only just ever so often, but really occasional, we might be thinking about things such as, you know, if your baby is becoming unwell or something has, you know, maybe he's got too hot in his cot or there's some other, there may be something or, you know, teething.
For some babies, if they're in discomfort, then they'll need some pain relief in the night. So if it's really just very, very occasional, there's no pattern to it, then I would just be thinking maybe it's just a one-off thing. And most of the time is okay. I wouldn't be thinking that we need to adjust anything. But if are finding that by, if occasional is once or twice a week and it's starting,
to starting to see those longer wakes creeping in a little bit more frequently, then I would be thinking about just checking that daily rhythm at 11 months old, probably getting close, you are definitely getting close to the point where he's going to drop down to one nap. We know that can happen from around 12 months, but there's a wide range of normal. And so it could be the emergence of
a sign that he's building his sleep pressure more slowly during the day and therefore is soon going to be ready to move to one nap. Did you have anything to add there?
Dr Fallon (39:30)
Mmm yeah and
no no I think that's a good answer. Samantha also asks if he only naps for 60 minutes total instead of his usual 90 minutes do we take his lead and leave it at that or should we encourage him to nap longer?
Dr Laura (39:46)
If he's happy, take his lead. I wouldn't be trying to make him nap for longer. If he seems a bit unhappy when he wakes up from the nap, you can try to resettle him for about 15 minutes. But if he doesn't, that's okay. You can't force a baby to sleep when they don't want to.
Dr Fallon (39:49)
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
Yeah exactly. She also asks if he wakes up at 6am do we get him up or do we persist with keeping him in his cot for another 20 to 30 minutes? We don't want to make 6am his usual wake up time.
Dr Laura (40:16)
Yeah, so again, if he's up and ready to go, then I'll be thinking about not trying to just keep him, not trying to resettle him. If he's happy enough in his cot, then you can leave him to it for 20 minutes or so. But often as babies get a bit older and head towards toddlerhood, they're not so happy about doing that. So you can get him up, but keep it.
quiet, dim and boring. Definitely might read some books or do some quiet play until your wake up time comes around. Then turn the lights on, play some music, get going. If you're finding that he's consistently waking up at 6 a.m. again, that's one of the signs that he's beginning to be ready to transition to fewer naps. And since you don't want 6 a.m. as a wake up, it may be that you can when he moves to one nap, you might be able to push wake up a bit later again.
Dr Fallon (41:10)
Yeah, Samantha also says he usually cries at bedtime. When might he stop crying to sleep? I know this is normal for some babies but it breaks my heart a little every time I hear him. it's really tricky when they're like this isn't it?
Dr Laura (41:21)
It is tricky. Yeah. And like we've
said before on the podcast, some babies do simply just cry as they're going to sleep and some will make that kind of like, sound. Some toddlers, you know, as they get older, will just kind of mutter away to themselves, tell themselves a little story. And these are just all soothing, self soothing behaviors that we do as we go to sleep. If he's
mostly fine, happy, functioning well during the day. And this is the only time that he does it. But he's absolutely fine when he wakes up in the morning, but he's just got nothing to worry about. I know it is hard when they do do it, but reassure yourself that he's safe, he's warm, he's loved. And it will be something that he grows out of. will probably change into something else. Maybe he becomes one of the toddlers who just mutters to himself.
Dr Fallon (41:51)
you
Yeah, yeah.
Bye.
Dr Laura (42:18)
as he falls asleep.
Dr Fallon (42:18)
Yeah,
sing songs. Yeah, and I think it's about the length of the crying. Like if it's if they're crying for a few minutes and then they're asleep, I wouldn't be worried if they're crying for 20, 30 minutes, you know, and they've already they're used to falling asleep in their cot, but it's just going on for a really long time. That might be when you go, hang on, do we need to push bedtime a little bit later? You know, is our child just not quite ready for sleep yet? But obviously that's in the babies that always fall asleep in their cot. Yeah, and they've made that transition to cot settling.
Dr Laura (42:29)
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (42:48)
Yeah, she also says I could be way off the mark, but is it possible that his sleep needs just vary some days? Which is what causes the problems?
Dr Laura (42:56)
Yeah, it is common for all of us to get varying amount of sleep each day across a whole week or two. So a little bit of variability is normal and to be expected because we're not robots. But really, what we want to try to control is these really massive swings that we sometimes see in baby and toddler sleep, where some days they might be having 11 hours per 24 hours and then another day they're having
Dr Fallon (43:17)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (43:25)
13 or 14 hours and then you just, which is just, you don't know where you are then as a parent and it's really hard for your little one to be able to function well during the day when there's such variability. But a little bit of variability from day to day is normal and to be expected.
Dr Fallon (43:44)
you
Yeah, yeah, I think that's so true and I think we know as adults and a lot of us this is a distant memory but you know if you've got a similar bedtime every night I mean you probably think back to like you know before you had kids if you have a similar sort of bedtime every night a similar wake up time And you know you're meeting your sleep needs you feel pretty good day to day It can vary a little bit you still feel fine But if you're having like a huge sleep in after a massive night out and then the next night You don't really sleep very much or if that's varying a lot. You're just gonna feel rubbish all the time
Dr Laura (44:15)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (44:15)
and that's what it's like for babies as well, toddlers and preschoolers.
Dr Laura (44:20)
All right, so we have an email from Natasha and Natasha has emailed about keeping toddler bedtimes on track when naps go haywire at daycare. did have to have a little, I had a little giggle Natasha when I read your email because some of the tales that you've written about your toddler made me laugh, but just for the, for brevity, we've just collapsed it. Okay, so Natasha has an 18 month old with an 11 and a half hour sleep need. She usually sleeps
8 until 6.30 overnight and naps for an hour and 15 minutes during the day from around midday. However, she's moved into the toddler room at daycare. She's got to sleep on a stretcher in the middle of the room. Tasha says she's highly distractible, so she thinks it's going to take some getting used to. Her toddler was standing up and singing one day on the stretcher. That's so funny when she was meant to be asleep.
I'm sure the educators didn't find it very funny. So she said last week, one of the days at daycare, she napped at the usual time, but she woke up to 30 minutes. The next day she napped an hour later than she usually did. And then the third day she crashed at 9.15 in the morning. So Natasha says that then her bedtime and wake up times at home have been impacted. And Natasha describes her toddler as seeming to be exhausted.
Dr Fallon (45:19)
No.
Dr Laura (45:48)
She says, how can I try to keep her on track overall? Is it more important to stick to set timings and the total hours of sleep or should we look at hours awake before bedtime?
Dr Fallon (46:03)
such a good question Natasha. look, generally I say I'm not too worried about the exact time that a nap happens. I'm more concerned about how much day sleep they're having and making sure they're not overdoing it. So it definitely sounds like she's not overdoing the total amount of sleep at daycare if anything she might be, undershooting it a bit. but 9.15 AM is, is definitely too early. She's not going to make it to bedtime on that.
Dr Laura (46:05)
Mm.
Mmm. No.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (46:29)
So in terms of conversations with childcare, I'd be asking them to try really hard to just get her to around about midday mark. And if she's really tired at 9.15 a.m. to try and give us some distractions and push that a little bit later. If they absolutely can't, then just make sure, I'm guessing that day she might have two short naps, make sure she doesn't exceed that total you usually give her. So you might be aiming for about an hour 15 total.
might just be two kind of catnaps to get through the day. But ask daycare to stick as closely as they can to that pattern because it'll help us settle in there quicker as well, settling into that new room. So in terms of like bedtime and wake up time, bedtime and wake up time are the signposts for the circadian rhythm. We really want to keep them as regular as possible. So timing of daynaps, not too bothered, but bedtime, wake up time, definitely try and keep them on track.
Dr Laura (46:53)
Hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (47:22)
So
I would say day by day, just have a think. Like if she, you know, if she had a slightly early nap at daycare and, but managed to get her hour 15, I would say push her through to a usual bedtime. Just try and keep her awake and it'll help teach her circadian rhythm that really should push that nap a little bit later. If she has a really short nap, a super early, you might go, okay, I'm going to let her have a little power nap.
maybe it's at four o'clock in the afternoon just to help her then get through to bedtime that day and that's really the best we can do. There's going to be a lot of ups and downs. It's a really strange move I think for a child to make into that toddler room. It's very different to a baby room and totally normal to have some really weird and wonderful days but if you keep gently pushing that daily rhythm and daycares on board as well eventually she'll fall into that pattern and you'll be you'll be set.
Dr Laura (47:55)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, really
good advice, Fallon.
Dr Fallon (48:18)
Good. All right, we have Angela who's written in about her four and a half month old baby who's averaging about 13 to 13 and a half hours sleep. gosh, they're waking eight to 10 times a night with multiple false starts. Angela, you're very tired.
Dr Laura (48:36)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (48:39)
Angela says she's hoping to reduce these wakes before diving into cot settling. Very good call. It's something we talk about a bit. Work on the sleep pressure and the daily rhythm before you change how you settle your baby. So Angela says she's moved to having a consistent wake up time, three naps instead of four, and she's capping his total nap duration to two hours and 45 minutes.
Dr Laura (48:50)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (49:02)
However, Angela is finding it hard to find a predictable daily rhythm as his naps vary between 25 and 60 minutes, meaning bedtime varies somewhere between 7.30 PM and 9 PM. And she says, meanwhile, the night wakes are persisting. So Angela asks the following questions. Do they need to further reduce his naps or should they reduce his total sleep needs from say 13 hours to 12 hours 45?
keeping the nap duration as it is, but reducing the overnight sleep.
Dr Laura (49:37)
So a really important point here to make is that we never want to reduce the amount of sleep time that we're offering our little ones to less than their average amount of sleep. So it can feel sometimes tempting, particularly in situations like Angela is in, where the eight to 10 wakes a night, you Angela, must be utterly exhausted. And so then thinking about restricting the sleep.
to less than they actually need can seem like a potentially a way to help drive up the sleep pressure. But we're getting into very dangerous territory with babies to, we do not want to be restricting the amount of sleep that they have. So I would be ensuring that you're continuing to offer 13 to 13 and a half hours worth of sleep opportunity, Angela.
If he sleeps less than that on some days, like we've spoken about earlier, there can be day to day fluctuations. That's okay, but we never want to deliberately restrict the sleep so that every day we're offering less than your baby needs. That is something that we do in older children and teenagers. And that may be where some of that thinking is coming from, but we definitely don't do it in babies when we're trying to help their sleep get back on track.
Dr Fallon (50:45)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (50:59)
So I think that your thoughts around how to divide up that sleep across the day and the night is the more accurate way to go, Angela. And thinking about if your baby is actually more often than not unable to achieve that close to three hours daytime sleep because his preference is for shorter naps, then I would be thinking about, all right, well.
Dr Fallon (51:00)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (51:26)
Let's meet him where he's at now. And let's just say perhaps it's two hours, two and a half hours total daytime sleep, for example, rather than that closer to three hours, because then we're not asking him to do something that he's just not quite ready to do at the moment. And then it takes the pressure off you as well, thinking that this is some goal you have to achieve. And if you don't achieve it, then where does that leave you in terms of bedtime and wake up? So yeah, did you have anything to add there, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (51:28)
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah
No, Angela also asked sort of, um, you know, how does she go about getting that consistent bedtime and what should she be doing if her baby wakes earlier for the day? Like would they keep bedtime at a similar time by adding an extra nap or should they move bedtime earlier and then the following day would they stick with the earlier bedtime that they have? So I kind of get what Angela's saying. Sometimes at this age, there's all this drift happening like, they work really early. Now we need to add a nap or, um,
Dr Laura (52:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (52:26)
And I think, sorry Laura, I'm answering this question for you, but what I always say to parents is try and decide what you're gonna do. What feels reasonable for your baby and work as hard as you can to stick to those times. So it might mean that.
Dr Laura (52:27)
No, you go. Yeah, that's fine.
Dr Fallon (52:39)
You've to do a lot of naps on the go because your baby loves to nap in the pram and that's going to help to keep the day on track. It might mean that sometimes you're trying to stretch about a bit longer than what they're wanting because you're trying to get them into that rhythm. Because bedtime and wake up time, like I've already said earlier, it's so important for just getting that regularity and it's okay to give them a bit of a nudge to get that pattern happening. But what would you say Laura? That I've had my two cents worth?
Dr Laura (52:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no, I think that's, I was going to say, well, going back
to what Fallon said for the last answer with the signpost, so that's fine. So I think what what Fallon said, and then Angela, I would be thinking about diving into that cot settling, because you have made these changes now. So you have tried to set a consistent wake up, you've moved to three naps rather than four.
Dr Fallon (53:21)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (53:28)
You're capping the, you you're working out how you're dividing up the sleep across the day and the night. So perhaps just based on what Val and I have just said, do a little bit of rejigging, perhaps reducing the amount of daytime sleep and popping more sleep into the nighttime opportunity, and then pick which way you're going to settle your baby. Because then you're really kind of, you've laid the foundations and then you're coming in then.
over the top with higher sleep pressure using one predictable way of settling your baby and that you can, yeah, brings in that predictability for your baby. Let us know how you get on Angela.
Dr Fallon (54:04)
Mmm, yeah, it's a good idea.
Yeah,
yeah absolutely. Good.
Dr Laura (54:16)
Okay, so we've had an email from Kate and Kate has a nearly eight month old who settles relatively easily, but almost every night wakes two to three hours later incredibly upset. She says, we then pat him to sleep following the quick fade method, but this generally takes 30 to 45 minutes. We will then have a good two to three hour stretch. I'm still feeding overnight, but aiming for only once after midnight and I'm resisting feeding at this first wake up.
This has been going on for close to a week. Is this just something that my baby will stop doing over time? Should we continue to hold the line on the patting method or is there something else we should be considering?
Dr Fallon (54:58)
Hmm, I'll have a look at the daily rhythm because that wake is pretty long. There's a lot of resistance there. It might be that we need to just tweak something a little bit and that's going to help.
Dr Laura (55:05)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (55:08)
It's probably also thinking is it feeding time yet? So it might even be a case of working on weaning all night feeds if that's something you want to do. You know, your baby's eight months old, they probably can manage overnight without feeding and that can often mean that sleep improves. But certainly wean off the padding because he's waking up and thinking where did you go? Why aren't you padding me anymore? He's feeling really cranky by the sounds of it when he wakes up and realizes that you've gone again. So weaning off that padding, yeah, could be a good option there I would say.
Dr Laura (55:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (55:38)
Good luck Kate. We also have, excuse me, we have Faye who has an 11 month old baby boy. naps from 9.30 a.m. to 10 a.m. in the pram and from 2 to 3.30 p.m. in the cot. He goes to bed at 8 p.m. or around 8 to 8.30 p.m.
Dr Laura (55:40)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (55:56)
Overnight he's been waking two or three times for a feed. He wakes any time from 5am to 6.30am. She says our main issue is not being able to tell if he's actually tired and getting him to resettle in the cot for bedtime. Getting him to settle, sorry, in the cot for bedtime. He hates it. They says we've tried intimately leaving the room and returning to Sue. We've tried staying by the cot and body rocking and singing and then sometimes rocking in our arms. The reason we keep trying new methods is because he becomes
Dr Laura (56:13)
Ugh.
Dr Fallon (56:26)
hysterical, he might be gagging, standing up in the cot, throwing himself face down. She says, I find it so distressing and even when we've consistently tried one method for a few days, it just seems to get worse and worse. What are we doing wrong?
Dr Laura (56:41)
Faye, it does sound really very, hard. Your little one is using some really full on behaviors to show you that he is not liking when you're settling him in the cot and that that is very hard as a parent to then persist in the face of. So I would be first of all, just having a think about that.
timing. One of the things that just springs out to me is that one thing that might be helpful, he is 11 months old, so he's probably got another couple of months of needing two naps. I would be looking at seeing if you can switch the naps around so that move that first nap a little bit later and see if you can then help that one be the longer nap and then the afternoon nap to be the shorter one.
because then what you might find is that his sleep pressure is a little bit higher at bedtime when you start to use a new settling approach. So that would be my first tip. Even thinking about, so that's first tip. Second tip would be thinking about perhaps even reducing the duration of that long nap. So it might be that that is just an hour rather than an hour and a half. So again, we're working on that sleep pressure.
So there's two things. that's switching them around, long one first, then short one, and then actually reducing the length of the long one. And then I would be thinking about how the experience that your little baby has had is that you will try one approach for a few days.
and then you'll move to a different approach and you'll do that for a few days and then you move to a different approach and do that for a few days. And what we want your little boy to start to experience is that there is one calm, consistent way of you responding. So rather than there being a bit of a menu of all of the things that...
Dr Fallon (58:50)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (58:56)
potentially might happen at bedtime, which can be a little bit disconcerting for some babies, others don't mind, but for some it can be quite disconcerting that there's actually just one thing that happens. And then that thing, it will have the touch, it will have the warm vocal tone, and it's predictable. That should start to help your little one be a little bit calmer at bedtime.
But initially, when you first pick whatever approach it is you're gonna do out of the Sombelle approaches, just be prepared for him to push back a lot because that is just the experience he's had and that it has worked. It has worked, exactly, Fallon,
Dr Fallon (59:31)
Hmm because it's worked. It's worked in the past. Yeah, yeah absolutely.
I think you know what's really important to know is that when sleep pressure is higher it's thought to actually suppress anxiety in the brain. So if you're thinking I don't want to be here, I don't like this, you're of less likely to be as worried if that sleep pressure is a bit higher. So fully agree with your Laura on changing that daily rhythm around a little bit. Build in as many breaks as you need.
That's what I would say. think these parents sound really worn down by their baby's behavior and that's really hard. So stop, have a break, have a cuddle, calm down and then keep going if that's going to help. Some parents will say no way, that makes my baby get really furious when I do that. But yeah, that is definitely an option. And it might be for you that a coaching call is a good idea at some point. If you're still really struggling, we can have a really good talk through things.
Dr Laura (59:59)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yep.
Dr Fallon (1:00:24)
Alright, let's move on to Jillian now Laura. Jillian emailed in and she says, are first time parents to a three and a half month old boy. Our son was a very unsettled newborn and was diagnosed with reflux at five weeks and described as a high crier. Jillian's been through the wringer. Poor thing. His reflux is now well managed. He's settled in arms with gentle bouncing and rocking. He becomes very distressed when placed in the cot when he is awake or drowsy.
Dr Laura (1:00:28)
Okay.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (1:00:54)
We are hopeful that independent cot-saddling might reduce his two hour nightly wakings, two hourly night wakings. my goodness, so they're long wakes. Due to his temperament, we've decided that a slow fade approach would be best. We followed the guide to include the four associations starting a few days ago with the hope to set him up for cot-saddling in two to four weeks.
Dr Laura (1:00:59)
know.
Dr Fallon (1:01:15)
My question relates to his temperament and age. He still cries on being settled in arms and will often scream very loud, seeming quite distressed before falling asleep within five to 10 minutes of settling. And that's in Jillian's arms. So he's right there with her. Jillian says, my concern is that he may cry loudly and in a distressed manner when we try to transition to cot settling as well.
Dr Laura (1:01:28)
Mm.
Yeah, yeah, I would say that given that he is crying when he's in your arms, it is almost certain that he will cry when you look to change what you're doing. He's already crying when you're giving him all of the support that he is used to. And it may be that, like we've spoken about before with the other members question whose baby cries for five minutes.
Dr Fallon (1:01:51)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (1:02:07)
at the start of the night, it could be that this is the same for Gillian's baby, that he does just have some crying as one of his sleep behaviors. And if he's doing it in your arms, he almost certainly is going to do it when you settle him somewhere else. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:02:23)
Yes and
some babies just hate transitions. The transition from awake to asleep they hate it. They really hate it, they push back, they get really really upset about it. Yeah it can be really really challenging. Gillian also asks what's best for babies with this type of temperament when transitioning to the cot settle? Is it okay for us to persist with the approach even if he's getting really really worked up?
Or would it be best for his age and temperament for us to delay cot settling until he is a little older? We understand that consistency is important and did not want to start cot settling and then abandon ship and change approaches along the way if this does occur. This is such a brilliant question, isn't it Laura? Because it comes down to family, what a family can manage. On one hand, I would say it's easy to do it now when they're older, they push back even harder, waiting till you see how hard an eight month old can push back. But...
Dr Laura (1:03:04)
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:03:18)
maybe that's not right for this baby and maybe it's fine to just take their time. What do you think?
Dr Laura (1:03:20)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah, look, I think that it sounds like Jillian has a really good read on her little baby. They have been through the wringer. I really feel for them. You know, their child had the purple crying and had reflux. So they've really had a baptism of fire becoming parents. And they we know that babies who are high criers are they're much they have much more
physical contact with their parents than babies who are low crier. So Gillian will just be have done everything that she can for this little baby to support him through that reflux. And that can mean that you become highly as a parent, you become highly sensitive to that crying, because in the past, it has meant that your baby was in pain. So that then we need to think about that when we're thinking of
Dr Fallon (1:04:12)
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Laura (1:04:20)
about the timing of making any changes to sleep. We know that your baby is going to cry because that is his temperament. And so then we're thinking about Gillian, how you are going to respond and interpret and then respond to those cries. So it may be that it is just too soon to change how he settles because you will be needing some time to recover from a really hard first few months.
Dr Fallon (1:04:24)
Hmm.
Yep.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (1:04:49)
And then, so we just go, do you know what? Now is not the right time for you.
Dr Fallon (1:04:54)
Yeah and yeah you really got to make that cool Jillian on what you feel you can manage. The only other thing I'll jump in and say is Jillian hasn't mentioned anything around sort of daily rhythm and this is not based on science this is just my gut feeling having worked with a lot of families. So often the very sensitive babies who are quite reactive don't like the transitions and cry a lot.
Dr Laura (1:04:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:05:14)
often have a lower sleep need. That's my feeling. I would be really looking at what his sleep needs are and catering to it because sometimes parents do adapt the daily rhythm to fit their child's sleep needs and suddenly they've got this really happy baby and they've just been trying to settle them when they're not quite tired enough and so there's always just been this crying. So yes, could have a think about that too.
Dr Laura (1:05:16)
Mmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:05:36)
We've got one last email to get through Laura. I reckon we can get through this one pretty quick because we're totally running over time. Every week we get out the podcast ever since get a little bit longer. But we have a question from Olivia. Do you want to read these ones out?
Dr Laura (1:05:45)
whoops.
Yeah, so
Olivia says, are some babies simply not ready to sleep through the night in reference to hunger? The context is Olivia says I've got an eight month old who's on two meals a day and feeds every three to four hours. She waits on average twice a night, which correlates with that same three to four hourly timeframe. Recently, I tried to cut a night feed and she was not having any of it.
Olivia says, I'm wondering if I should strap myself in and persist or if some babies are just not ready to go longer between feeds until they are having three meals a day. I'm actually okay with waking twice a night to feed her at this point. I'm just wondering if I should be working on it.
Dr Fallon (1:06:30)
Yeah, it's totally up to you Olivia. If you decide you really want to get rid of that night feed, you totally can push ahead with it. Give your baby three meals per day.
Make sure that their weight gain is on track before you do that. Babies will often know, like not know as in consciously know, but their bodies are very good at going, okay, we get X amount of calories overnight, therefore I'll limit my calories to this particular amount during the daytime, so overall I'm getting what I need. So they will keep going with night feed sometimes for as long as they're offered because their body is kind of expecting those calories. If you decide you want to drop a night feed, add in extra calories in the daytime with a solid meal and then
Dr Laura (1:06:59)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:07:08)
just stick with it. You know, provided her weight gains fine, there's no reason why she won't adapt. But yeah, totally up to you when you do it, there's no pressure to do it at any particular time.
Dr Laura (1:07:09)
Mm-hmm.
And Olivia also says, should I still dream feed my baby? I've always fed my baby when I go to bed at nine. This is usually three hours after the last feed. She sometimes she wakes around nine anyway, and other times I pick her up and give her that feed. I find this works well for me because if I don't she wakes around 11 and then it actually adds another wake up for me during the night. But Olivia says that she saw another person in the sleep space on Instagram.
I know, I know, she says, say that doing this at this age, offering a dream feed does damage to their sleep. What do reckon, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (1:07:57)
those keyboard
warriors. Sounds like it's working for you, Olivia. Like if you've noticed that when you don't do it, your baby has this extra weight, well, the DreamFeed's working for you and it's perfectly fine. It's not going to damage sleep. But I would keep testing not doing it because often at this age, it doesn't make much difference to how long babies will sleep before they then wake up.
Dr Laura (1:08:01)
you
No.
Dr Fallon (1:08:22)
So if you're thinking you'd like to get rid of it, start going without it and seeing what changes. Because at some point she'll probably just sleep all the way until the usual night feed. Yeah, and yeah, turn off Instagram or unfollow confusing accounts. There's just so much crap on there. So if it's driving you crazy, just switch off to it.
Dr Laura (1:08:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:08:45)
But yeah, you're doing a great job, Olivia. All of these parents are doing an amazing, amazing job. And these questions have been fantastic this week. I just feel like there's so many things that multiple parents will be listening along to and nodding furiously to. And I really hope our discussions around attachment give you, yeah, ease your mind because I think there's a lot of guilt parents carry for not being, you know, the perfect parent all the time. You don't need to be the perfect parent to have healthy attachment. And you also don't have to have your baby on you constantly to have
Dr Laura (1:08:52)
Yeah, they have.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (1:09:15)
secure attachment. So I hope that information is helpful to parents. If you love what we do, buy us a coffee. You can follow the link in the show notes. If you'd like to share us a coffee, that would be amazing. We appreciate it so, so much and helps to keep this podcast going. To run this podcast, we close the clinic for a full day every Monday to do this. So it does kind of cost us money to do the podcast, but we love doing it and we know it's super helpful for you guys and we definitely want to keep that going.
Dr Laura (1:09:16)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (1:09:44)
And if you love us leave us a review if you need help with sleep and settling join Sombelle or the coaching call if you're a member and you need some extra support And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast So that's us for one big whirlwind episode this week and we'll be back again next week
Dr Laura (1:10:00)
Yes.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
