Dr Fallon (00:37)
When your baby or toddler isn't sleeping well and you're filled with dread at the thought of facing another broken night, it can feel like you're so deep down in the trenches that you might never climb out. When broken sleep stretches across weeks, months or even years, it's easy to feel like better nights are just so far away. But they are not. Even with the most challenging, ingrained, persistent sleep difficulties,
With the right plan in place, it's likely you'll begin to see some progress in the first week and perhaps even an entire resolution by the second or third week. It is never too late to improve sleep. You just need the right plan to get you there. Whether you're a Sombelle member or one of our clinic clients or just a listener, this episode is your pep talk because you can do this. Sleep can improve. You just need a dose of confidence and a steely resolve
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle pediatric sleep programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. We are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, how are you going? You've had quite the big weekend. And not a big weekend like it was in your 20s.
Dr Laura (02:09)
I followed, yes.
No, very different definition these
days.
Dr Fallon (02:18)
Yeah. So tell our listeners what you were up to yesterday being slightly famous.
Dr Laura (02:24)
so funny. I was interviewed on a radio show, Triple R in Melbourne, on their radiotherapy segment. It was really lovely. main interviewer, or the main person who runs radiotherapy, they all have funny names. So his stage name is Dr. Mal Practice, so he's referred to as Mal. And then
Dr Fallon (02:36)
you
That's funny.
Dr Laura (02:53)
the other person, he's a psychiatrist. And then the one of the other people is a psychologist, and she's called Dr. Kit Cat. And then there's also a fabulous pediatrician who goes by Dr. Lexi Conn. She's actually Lexi Freidenberg. And then there was another guest as well who's a medical doctor who's a philosopher.
Dr Fallon (03:10)
You
Dr Laura (03:19)
And yeah, it was really a good fun Sunday morning experience going into the city and going into the studio. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (03:25)
Yeah
Yeah, you did a
great job. And it's such a great show. I look, I'll be honest, I just don't listen to radio. I haven't for years. I'm just always listening to podcasts these days. But it made me go, I have to tune into this. It's such a cool concept. It's like an hour they invite on different experts and having a panel that medical professionals, makes it really interesting. I mean, they're talking about the science behind things.
Dr Laura (03:53)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (03:53)
and
you were there specifically to talk about children's sleep and man, you packed a lot in. It was great.
Dr Laura (04:01)
It's so funny when you listen back to these things, because my mind is going 100 miles an hour, even now, whilst we're recording this podcast, my mind is very, very noisy. And then listening back to a recording where it just sounds really concise and just like one simple message, it's like, wow, that's not how it sounded in my head. I could say this, I could say that. And because we were looking at children's sleep, and that's from some of the topics.
Dr Fallon (04:08)
Hmm.
You
No, you nailed it. Yeah.
Dr Laura (04:30)
did cover very like babies and toddlers, but then it was through to primary school age and then teenagers. And then even some of the questioning was about adult sleep and sleep in general. So there was a lot of ground to be covered, but it's so much fun.
Dr Fallon (04:35)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. And radio is hard because you do, you know, you're on the clock and you're like trying to get through as much as you can and give the best answer you can in the least number of words. But no, I think you did so well. And I just noticed that, that episode's available to listen to online. So I will do some social media posts with a link through to that, because I think all of our listeners should also go and have a listen to that interview that you did. It was really, really great. and that was really to highlight that our children's sleep Australia clinic is now open. So.
Dr Laura (05:08)
brilliant.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (05:14)
we're
seeing kids aged four to 17 years, which is so, so exciting. And maybe what I'll is I'll actually jump through to a few dot points along in our little run sheet, Laura. We have two amazing new staff coming on board that we are so excited about. So we have Lauren, who's a registered nurse, and she's been trained up as a sleep practitioner to work with the older kids, the four to 17 year olds.
Dr Laura (05:24)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (05:39)
And she's absolutely amazing. She's such an asset to our team. We're so pumped to have her on board. So yeah, if you've got older kids or you you've got a friend who's got an older child with sleep difficulties, it's really quick and easy to get an appointment right now. Whereas the hospital sort of wait list can stretch on for a couple of years. So do let people know. And we also have Cat coming on board as well. Who's another brilliant sleep practitioner.
Dr Laura (05:43)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (06:06)
She'll
be working with babies and toddlers alongside us. And we're super pumped because Cat is just gorgeous. We've been following her on the social media channels for years and we're so delighted to make this connection. So the team is growing, which is really exciting. And Cat will be seeing clients soon too. yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (06:16)
Yes.
Yes. And cats are nursed as well from the UK. So
yeah, there's a little bias towards people from the UK, but I'm all for that.
Dr Fallon (06:31)
I
think there is, but it's brilliant because both Cat and Lauren have a history in nursing. And I just think that is such a fabulous skill set to bring to sleep. Being able to care for other people is just such a big part of working in the sleep space as well, being empathetic and understanding and, you know, having to troubleshoot the little things that can pop up. So yeah, they're both going to be doing, and I've already started doing some
Dr Laura (06:47)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (06:58)
sort of advanced training with us so that they're really capable at managing really complex cases, which we often get in the clinics. And yes, it's gonna be great because often we get families saying, it's such a long time to see you guys, you know, what can we do? And we're going to be able to increase our availability quite a lot. So I mean, a much shorter wait list for families. Yeah.
Dr Laura (07:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes. And because
we'll be working so closely with both Cat and Lauren, we'll still be across the cases. So if you do book in to see either Cat or Lauren, just know that you are still having our eyes on your child's case as well. So we work very closely together. So it's really a team approach. You'll be seeing Cat or Lauren as your main practitioner, but we will be discussing your cases.
Dr Fallon (07:27)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (07:49)
behind the scenes so you get this whole team approach.
Dr Fallon (07:50)
Yeah.
I think that's one of the most valuable things that we bring to families in the clinic is that you come in to see us, but you're getting four experts having their eyes on your kid. It's not ever just going to be the one person in front of you. So yeah, it just means we can give such a high level of care. It really is brilliant. So yeah. And I reckon we need to invite Lauren and Cat on the podcast for a little guest episode at some point. I don't know if they'll be up for it though. They might be a bit nervous, but yeah, we'll have to see.
Dr Laura (08:02)
Mmm.
Mmm.
They're probably listening to this now, Fallon,
going, my God, what? We're not going to force you. We're not going to force you. In your own time.
Dr Fallon (08:21)
Holy crap. Yeah,
that's it. Exactly. So yeah, you've had the radio thing and we also have some other really cool things coming up soon. We've got the, so next week on February 17th on the Monday at 12.30 PM, we're doing a masterclass on baby sleep. It's entirely free.
And that's part of our role. We're the kind of go-to sleep experts for Parents You've Got This If you don't follow parents, you've got this go into it right now. I insist they gather together all the best experts across a whole lot of different topics relevant to babies and toddlers. And they get those experts to talk about, you know, what parents really need to know on that topic. So they are brilliant and they run really cool events and stuff as well. So definitely go and follow them along and come join in the baby sleep masterclass.
Dr Laura (08:56)
Yes.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (09:17)
And the other big thing we have on is again this year we are the sleep people for Raising Children's Network. So Raising Children's Network, big government funded organization where they only, you know, they sift through all the evidence on different topics and make sure parents get the best available evidence. So
Dr Laura (09:26)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (09:39)
We do their sleep webinars. I'm doing the toddler one in March. I'm not sure what date it would be. So make sure you're following our social media accounts to find out about that. And there'll be two baby sleep webinars in June and we've got something a little bit exciting planned for that. So yeah, follow along. And when those come up, come and join them. They're completely free. And they're always just really good fun. Absolutely love doing those.
Dr Laura (09:39)
Mm-hmm.
And they're very well
attended and you can ask questions. You put questions into your, into the chat and there's somebody who moderates them who will then, you know, ask your questions. They'll read them out to us as we do them. So they're really awesome, aren't they, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (10:05)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, they're much loved by parents. Those ones get a huge audience. So yeah, so delighted to be doing that. We've got so many exciting things planned this year, Laura. I'm so pumped. It's going to be great.
Dr Laura (10:23)
Mm.
Yeah, me too. Yeah,
this is going to be a really awesome year, welcoming new practitioners on board, increasing the availability so that parents can get in to see us more easily. And then doing as much outreach work as we can through doing these community webinars, Instagram live, the Raising Children Network webinars. So yeah, we're doing everything we can to get the
evidence-based sleep advice out to you parents. So we're really, really pumped for it.
Dr Fallon (11:06)
Yeah. And there's been a few people who have spotted terrible misinformation online, who have sent it through to one of our social media accounts. And I apologize that I don't always get time to reply to every message, but we see it. We hear you. It is so frustrating to see just total misinformation out there. but yeah, we're doing what we can to combat that. And I think over time, things are slowly getting a little bit better, which is great. Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:19)
Yes.
Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (11:34)
So Laura, this idea for this week's episode was we were, we were kind of like, let's give the parents a pep talk. One of the things that I'd often notice in doing the coaching calls with our Sunvale members is that parents have written this brilliant sleep plan. They've gone through, they've thought about it. They've worked out their child's unique sleep needs and they've got a great plan there, but they are too scared to get started. And they're like, can you just, just like walk me through my plate? Like, is it the right fit? I feel really scared to do this.
Dr Laura (11:41)
Yeah.
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (12:04)
And
so then I give them a pep talk and it's great fun. I love doing it. But I thought, well, it's not just our song bell parents who are going to need that pep talk sometimes. I thought, why don't we go through what some of, you know, some of the bigger fears that parents can have and what we think you need to hear.
Dr Laura (12:17)
Yes.
Yeah. And so what would you say if you had to pick out one of the most common fears that parents say to you in the Sombelle coaching call? Where would you start, Anne, and what would it be?
Dr Fallon (12:31)
Well, often in the coaching course, I like to start by talking about the timing and the daily rhythm. so often, um, well, I'd say 50 50, sometimes parents have absolutely nailed the daily rhythm. They've got it written out in their plan and it's great. And I'm like, yeah, just, just do that. great. Other times they're like a little too scared and they've got ranges of, you know, bedtime or wake time, and it needs a little bit of tightening up. Um, but a lot of parents will say,
Dr Laura (12:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (12:56)
my baby or my toddler is so tired in the daytime. I don't know how I can tighten up this daily rhythm. How would I make these changes? Because I have no idea how I'm going to keep them awake. It just seems so, so, so hard. And often what we look at then is, well, imagine you have a really terrible night's sleep. You you wake up the next day, you feel terrible. And what do you want to do? You want to nap a lot. But what happens if you nap a lot?
Dr Laura (13:01)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:24)
You then have another terrible night of sleep. And I think so often babies or toddlers can be caught in this cycle of bad nights, lots of day sleep, another bad night, and it just kind of keeps going and going. So I can feel scary to change that, really scary.
Dr Laura (13:26)
Yes.
Mmm.
Yes, but it is, it is worth doing. that fear that it's going to be really hard to change that daily rhythm is, it needs to be challenged, doesn't it? Like you, you can't carry on like this. The, you're all really exhausted. You have examined your baby's unique sleep needs. You've come up with the daily rhythm that is most likely to work. And
Dr Fallon (13:43)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (14:09)
you know what, give it a go, give it a chance. I saw a family in the main clinic last week who had an, for a review and they had an eight month old and they had been so terrified of moving their eight month old down to two naps that they had put it off and put it off because they were so, the baby was so, seemed so tired during the day, they couldn't see how they could possibly stretch this eight month old to stay awake for more than two hours a day.
Dr Fallon (14:14)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (14:37)
And then at the review appointment, when we'd had the pep talk in the initial appointment, and then in the review appointment, they said, my goodness, he did it so easily. Yeah, he did it so easily. And actually, they said, we realized it was us who was scared, but they then weren't giving him the opportunity to see if he could stay awake a little bit longer. And actually, he just took to it like duck to water. So, yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:38)
Yeah.
God, we did it. Yeah.
Mmm
Yes.
And often it's just parents have to be a little bit brave, give them that nudge into that new daily rhythm because then they have a great night and then they wake up more refreshed. They can power through the day with a little bit less day sleep. And then by the next night, they're really tired and ready for sleep. So it's like to break that cycle of just terrible nights, terrible day, you know, and it just keeps going on and on. We have to be brave enough to go, you know what, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? We're going to have a really cranky baby or a cranky toddler on our hands, but
What's so bad about that? You know, it's temporary. It doesn't last forever. And often I see the same thing as you, Laura. They come back and they go, thank God I actually gave it a try. I really didn't think it was going to help. And it made the biggest difference. So yeah, got to be really brave with that one. What are some of the things you hear Laura that parents are just really stuck on and really scared to move past?
Dr Laura (15:33)
Yeah.
Yeah, good.
I think a really big one is being very fearful of changing how they put their child to sleep. So if they're thinking about moving to cot settling or bed settling for a toddler, thinking, my God, every time we have tried to change how our baby or toddler goes to sleep before now, they have been furious. They have screamed their heads off. They've been hysterical.
had really, really big emotions. This is the children, not the parents. And they think, I just don't know if I can do it again. How on earth will I persist in the face of these really big, furious, cranky emotions that their bigger baby or toddler has previously presented with? And do you get that a lot in the coaching calls that parents are really a bit...
Dr Fallon (16:25)
It's probably a bit of both though.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, so much.
Dr Laura (16:50)
scared
of that kind of the emotion their child is going to express.
Dr Fallon (16:54)
Yeah.
Cause most parents have given it a crack before they've they'll say, you know, Oh, we tried putting them in the cot once they screamed for half an hour. was horrendous. We were so overwhelmed by how they responded. And often they know, they know that, you know, if they're going to go and make this change, they've got to be consistent. You know, they've heard that a million times, got to be consistent. They're like, how will I persist in the face of this? And what I try to say to parents is sort of, suppose, two key things. The first relates to the first topic we talked about with the,
Dr Laura (17:16)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:24)
rhythm and changing the daily rhythm. It's so often the case that when parents describe that they did try to put their baby in the cot for example
they had a really clear sleep pressure problem or a daily rhythm that was all over the place, which just meant that their child could then really push back and had the energy to be really angry for a really long time about the changes. So I often say to parents, this is going to be different. We're going to work on that daily rhythm first and really optimize the timing of their day so that you know that when you do put them down in that cot for the first time, they are so ready for sleep that they won't have a lot of energy to be pushing back against it.
Dr Laura (17:44)
yet.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (18:00)
But I also really importantly explained to parents that you're not going to be using any approaches that are so challenging for your child.
Often for these families, we will say, you know, first of all, think about their cot or their bed. Is it comfortable? And is it safe? Like, is there anything your child might actually be really upset about in that space? And parents are usually like, no, it's lovely. spent three grand on this beautiful nursery. Like it's heaven in there. A lot of parents are right to us and say, gosh, I slept in there the other night and it's heaven. Like, what are they complaining about? This nursery is the best place for sleep. But I'll say to them, well, then you're going to be right there.
Dr Laura (18:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
you
Dr Fallon (18:38)
with your baby or your toddler, you're to be giving them constant reassurance. You're really supporting them with this change. So yes, they might be furious and cranky because they have very different expectations around how they should fall asleep and how bedtime should go. But you are going to be there to help them with those big emotions. You're there to show them that you're present. There's nothing to be frightened or worried about, but it's okay to be, well, to be the parent.
Dr Laura (18:59)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (19:06)
to say this is an appropriate place for you to sleep now. I love you and I'm going to support you as you get used to it, but I am going to keep persisting with this and building lots of opportunities for cuddles and things like that if that's what you're really wanting to do. But it is okay to persist. Even if they're really cranky, what they need from you is to see that you're there for them, but that you are going to be consistent with this. I'm sure there's a lot you would add to that too, Laura.
Dr Laura (19:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
I will, you know, often say, I'm sure I must've said it in this podcast as well, that it's absolutely fine and okay for your baby or toddler to feel furious and to feel those big emotions. And that's okay. It's not our job as parents to stop them from having those big emotions. And it's, and being scared of them ourselves.
Dr Fallon (19:44)
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Laura (19:57)
is then kind of, it's in a way it's telling your child that those emotions are scary because you were scared of watching your child have those emotions, but you're changing something about how your child sleeps or how your baby sleeps and they don't want it to change but you do and you've made that adult parenting decision yourself, you've considered it, you've joined Sombelle, you've read through all the approaches, you've optimized the daily rhythm, you're doing, you're making a very considered responsible choice.
Dr Fallon (20:14)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (20:25)
which is gonna be right for you and your child, they don't like it and it's okay for them to be cross about it. But it's also okay for you to stick with it. So you just try not to think, because they're gonna have a big reaction, that means I shouldn't do it. They are gonna have a big reaction and that's normal and okay for them to have a big reaction. And my job is to continue to love them and support them through it.
Dr Fallon (20:32)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah
Dr Laura (20:51)
And I do that by persisting and showing that it's okay. If you start then changing up what you're doing and saying, I can't do this. I can't do this. Then you're showing your child that actually, yeah, you were right to be telling me that this is wrong. And it's screaming. And I have now changed what I'm going to do. And I'm particularly thinking about the toddlers who like to run out of the room and, you know, you just, you know, they know, I would do want to have that extra bottle of formula or whatever it is that they're asking.
Dr Fallon (20:56)
you
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (21:20)
So instead, when you stay really calm and consistent, you're just showing them that, yeah, I can see that you're not happy about it and that's okay, but I am going to stay calm and consistent and persist.
Dr Fallon (21:20)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I'm here to kind of support you through those big feelings, but I can't just take away the thing that's annoying you right now, because this is how we're going to do things from now on. And I think as well, parents are going into this, usually having put a lot of consideration into their approach. They're being really thoughtful at what they're going to do, how they're going to respond. They're building in opportunities to take a break as well. And when you have got that well-considered plan, you can really feel confident that it is okay to stick with that plan, give it a few days and often
Dr Laura (21:42)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (22:02)
so often, like it's so rare that this isn't the case, but parents almost always when I see them for review appointments or they'll email me to let me know, they'll say, thank God we tried because we thought they were going to, you know, be really upset for hours and hours. And actually the first night at 20 minutes in and they were asleep, you know, and they, they'll say things like, yeah, my baby really picked up that we were just being very repetitive.
Dr Laura (22:20)
Yeah. Yes.
Dr Fallon (22:27)
with our reassurance and they just kind of realize, okay, mum and dad aren't changing what they're doing. So I'm just going to go to sleep because you you've done that work on the daily rhythm too. So the sleep drive is higher as well. So try not to be afraid of it. It's often a change that we, you know, we really need to make as parents. You're not making it lightly. It's something you've thought about a lot. You've started to try up your sleep plan. It's a really good idea to be improving sleep when you've gotten to that point. Yeah. And it is okay to persist.
Dr Laura (22:37)
Hmm.
Mm.
And you know what that makes
Dr Fallon (22:56)
Mm.
Dr Laura (22:57)
me think about now, Fallon, is the next kind of fear that parents raise during appointments where they'll say, having talked through the daily rhythm, yep, okay, they're understanding why we're making the changes that we are to build the sleep pressure and cater for the child's unique sleep needs. And then we've talked through how the child isn't going to necessarily like the changes that we're going to make.
But it's worth persisting and staying calm. And then a parent often will quietly say that there'll be a pause and then they'll say, what if they just don't sleep? Do you hear that? They just,
Dr Fallon (23:37)
Yeah. What if they just, yeah, all the time. What
if they just, they just don't sleep. What if they're just awake all night? And it's like, I would put money on them sleeping. They will, they will sleep. It's a biological drive that you cannot fight. Yeah. It's a bit like, I suppose in some ways their parents will say, I'm going back to work. My baby's going to have a bottle, but they don't really like the bottle very much.
Dr Laura (23:43)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (24:02)
And it's like, they will take it eventually. They just need to want it enough that drive to feed will be strong enough and then they'll start to take it and they'll go, actually, this is not so bad. After all, it's actually really good. yeah.
Dr Laura (24:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, for the vast majority of cases, as long as there isn't any medical issue going on.
And of course, the same for sleep as well. Like generally, sleep will prevail if a child has a medical cause underlying their sleep problems, such as sleep apnea or, know, some kind of sleep disorder, breathing or anyway, we've talked about that before in the podcast, if there's a medical reason, then it really needs to be investigated by a medical doctor.
Dr Fallon (24:20)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (24:38)
But when we're just talking about general behavioural sleep issues, they will eventually sleep.
Dr Fallon (24:44)
Yeah, and there's been some great research. can't recall the reference off the top of my head, but actually showing that if you, God, I'm probably gonna recall this accurately. You might remember though, Laura, but if you have a really bad night with your child, the chances of them having another bad night following that are really low. So each night of bad sleep, so even if you do have two really tricky nights, it's really likely by that third night, you're going to see them have some bigger, longer stretches. It might not be a perfect night.
Dr Laura (25:01)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (25:11)
But that's how it kind of goes because if they have a terrible night, imagine that sleep drive, the next night's much more urgent, much more pressing. So even if you do have a horrendous first night and honestly, it's not usually the case, but if you do and they're awake for hours and hours, you're going to stick to that daily rhythm as closely as you can. And that next night, you're very likely to have a huge breakthrough where they're settling really quickly. And you'll just feel like you've got that bit of traction and you're off and away.
Dr Laura (25:11)
Yes.
Hmm.
Yeah, I think often
I think that that paper that you're referring to talks about the third night. So things often are much better on the second night, but it's the third night that the real breakthrough happens. Generally, it's like kind of three nights for that sleep pressure to really, really kick in. So you'll be surprised at the second night and then the third night you'll be like, wow, okay.
Dr Fallon (25:45)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah,
it gets better that quickly. And that's so often why we say to families plan a weekend that maybe even take a Friday or a Monday off if you're really worried. But if you've got, you know, either your partner, your child's other parent, or even someone who's just going to come and help you if you've got a few days in a row, and you start
changes on a Friday night, are by Monday, you're going to be delighted. You know, you should see some really big changes by that point. So often it's just a few days where you kind of go to ground, really focus on the sleep changes and then yeah, things will just continue to improve. Yeah.
Dr Laura (26:24)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm
Okay, let's think
about what other things, what other fears parents raise during the appointments. I think also a common one is, okay, you've convinced us that your child, that our child will eventually sleep, but what if it just, we never quite get there? What if it just doesn't quite work?
Dr Fallon (26:56)
Yeah, some parents are just like, my child has the worst sleep. Like I don't think it'll stick. It won't last forever. You know, should we really try and change it or is it always just going to be awful? And to that, I often say, well, how happy are you to just leave things as they are? And other parents like, no, no, no, no. Look, I definitely, you know, I definitely need this to change. It's like, well, that's why you've got to just go all in, you know, like it's.
Dr Laura (27:12)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (27:24)
Yeah, sleep can be up and down and there can be bumpy bits. But it's, I think it's always worth working on. Because especially when you work with us, we always develop a plan that's really designed to tick off all the factors. We really look at every possible thing that can be influencing your sleep. And that's what we try and get parents doing in Sunbell as well. And they're very good at doing it. It's a good program. Then the plan that you've developed is really thinking about all aspects of their sleep. And it means that
Dr Laura (27:31)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (27:51)
This should be the time, unlike the others, where everything is actually finally addressed. So many parents have a history of working on a little bit of something for a day here or a day there. But our plans are really about thinking about everything and then making one big consistent change. So usually it does work, even in the babies who have had horrendous sleep or there might be a three year old toddler who's never slept well. We turn those situations around all the time, all the time.
Dr Laura (27:56)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
yeah, we do.
Dr Fallon (28:19)
And I think parents should
get a lot of hope from that, is that you really can go from a horrendous sleeper to an absolutely beautiful sleeper in a couple of weeks, sometimes even less.
Dr Laura (28:21)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, you can.
I really hope that pep talk has helped listeners Fallon. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:34)
Yeah, I hope so
too. I think those were really covered a few things that parents often need a lot of reassurance about. So if you are about to embark on a whole lot of changes or maybe you started and you're second guessing yourself, I hope it gives you a bit more of that steely resolve to go, no, we can do this. We can get through this initial tricky patch and it will get better because it will. It absolutely will. Amazing.
Dr Laura (28:54)
Yeah, yeah. All right, shall we move on
to parent questions because we've got a lot once again.
Dr Fallon (29:01)
We
have got a lot. think like we take a leaf out of the book of the radio shows Laura and we're just going to like be snappy and quick and get through these as quick as we can. Yeah. So we can help as many parents as possible. Do you want me to start? I could read out our first one from Sarah. All right. So Sarah says, I have a 10 month old who has two one hour naps and 10 hours of sleep at night. In the last month, she's learned how to walk.
Dr Laura (29:11)
Good.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go for it.
Dr Fallon (29:28)
she's quick on her feet to be on her feet. That's amazing. She's been teething and has been sick. Sarah says her demeanor has changed significantly. She's cranky, falling asleep during every breastfeed and is super clingy with Sarah. Sarah asks three questions, which we'll go through one at a time. So Sarah says, is this developmental or does she need more sleep? Or is this just a period of time that we just need to get through?
Dr Laura (29:31)
Yeah.
Sarah, wow, it sounds like it has been a really, really busy month with all of those things happening. When we're thinking about whether a child is getting enough sleep and whether this is just a bumpy patch, we're really thinking about how are they functioning across the day as a whole. You have noticed that your baby's demeanor has changed and it's very different from what it previously was. She has had a on her plate.
Dr Fallon (29:58)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:24)
but I think that it is worth looking at whether she does need a little bit more sleep, you know, for a child to now be like significantly more cranky, really clingy and falling asleep during breastfeeds where she didn't used to do so. That is just telling me that there is something going on there. And I would be looking at either bringing bedtime perhaps a little bit earlier or wake up a little bit later in the morning.
Dr Fallon (30:29)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:52)
just to see if she does need a little bit more sleep and then seeing if that does improve her demeanor during the day. If you find that it doesn't and she's not sleeping anymore, but she is still just not quite right, I'd be making an appointment with your GP to be honest and just making sure that there isn't anything else going on that may be making her feel a little bit miserable.
Dr Fallon (31:01)
Hmm.
Yeah, I think that's good advice. Sarah also asks, during sickness is it better to lengthen the naps or can we add in a power nap to get through the day? I'd lean towards just lengthening the naps a little bit when they're sick, would you? Yeah.
Dr Laura (31:29)
Yeah, I
would. Yeah, because then a power nap, some babies just don't like being woken from a power nap. A power nap is about waking a child after only a short period of time, so they haven't often done a full sleep cycle. So doing that to a baby who's under the weather just isn't very nice. So yeah, I'd lengthen the nap.
Dr Fallon (31:35)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah,
let them nap a bit longer when they're sick. And once they're better, just get back on track with the old schedule and see if they get back on track too. And lastly, Sarah asks for her naps to wake her up on time. They turn off the white noise machine. It wakes her up pretty much instantly. She will cry for a few minutes when she wakes. Is there a better way of waking her?
Dr Laura (32:08)
There's no magic way of waking a baby. would probably, before talking about how to wake a baby, just to answer your question directly, Sarah, I would be first of all thinking about, let's just, since she is a little bit cranky, just seeing how, you know, it may be that her sleep cycle length has changed a little bit. And maybe first of all, just see if you just want to leave her even five or 10 minutes longer.
Dr Fallon (32:29)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (32:37)
than you have been, see whether she does wake up herself. Could be that her sleep cycles are just getting a bit longer now she's getting a bit older. So that would be my first point, just double check. Given she's so tired and you're waking her from each nap and in the morning, actually just pause doing that for a moment, not going wild, not letting her go to having four hours a day sleep a day, but just look at seeing what she would do.
Dr Fallon (32:37)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (33:05)
if you just extend the nap length a little bit. Then just thinking about how to answer the question. If you do decide that you're going to stick with waking her, because that works best for you and her family and it keeps her nighttime sleep on track, then I wouldn't be too worried that she's crying for a few minutes on waking. You can give a try going in and perhaps just...
Dr Fallon (33:27)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (33:32)
turning a lamp on and opening the blinds and then turning the white noise off once she's already awake and just see if that makes any difference. But since she cheers up quite quickly, I wouldn't be getting too stressed about it or too worried about that crying.
Dr Fallon (33:46)
Yeah, I think that's a great answer, Laura. Good.
Dr Laura (33:49)
Okay,
so on to a question from Carly. So Carly is using the supported accelerated approach and she asks, do you need to continue with the intervals of patting for the full 30 minutes if your child is already asleep? So Carly's six month old usually falls asleep within five to 10 minutes and then her and her partner are continuing to use the patting and the intervals for an
full half hour.
Dr Fallon (34:20)
Okay. This is where I would say read through the steps really super carefully because you definitely don't want to keep doing this if your child is asleep. And if you're at the end of an interval and your child isn't upset or crying, you can just pause and wait and see if they're going to sleep. I do see parents missing this quite a lot. but it is there in the instructions. I think it's even in bold. If you're at the end of an interval and they don't need any comforting, just yeah, pause and wait and see what happens. Definitely don't keep going.
you know, if they're trying to put themselves to sleep, we don't want to kind of interfere with that. So yeah, you definitely don't need to keep going after they're already asleep. We have a question from Zoe Laura who says, my daughter is six months old and has a 13 and a half hours sleep need. She has three naps for which she self settles. At night she's fed to sleep. Recently her naps have shortened where previously she had one long nap.
Dr Laura (34:53)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (35:16)
Also, she used to sleep through the night or just have one wake, but now wakes two to four times and needs to be fed back to sleep and she can wake early for the day. So Zoe has a few questions. It really sounds like she's hit that kind of five ish month mark where they suddenly go, you thought you could just feed me to sleep and I'd sleep all night. Hey, now she's like, no, no, no. I want that over and over and over again. Anyway, so Zoe asks, is it time to drop a nap? If so, how do I manage dropping a nap?
Dr Laura (35:34)
Yes!
Yes.
Dr Fallon (35:45)
if she wakes early for the day and is it okay to do some three nap days and some two nap days when working around commitments?
Dr Laura (35:54)
Yeah, so Zoe, your daughter is six months old. Normally somewhere between six and seven months is when that change can happen where babies look to reduce the number of naps they're having during the day, we think because they start to their sleep pressure more slowly during the day and therefore they need fewer naps. So she's ticking a few boxes that she's ready to drop her naps. She is doing I know from the longer email, the naps of
really shorted now. So it's three half hour naps, where she used to have one longer nap. Now they're all short. So I would say that once you move her to two naps, she's going to be able to build that sleep pressure a bit higher before she goes down for her first nap and is then more likely to do a long one again for you. At the moment with those shorter periods of time awake, she's just not able to.
Dr Fallon (36:37)
Mmm.
Yep.
Dr Laura (36:47)
build up that pressure enough to be able to link a sleep cycle. So she's kind of losing that ability. It will come back. But the sleep pressure just isn't there. So yeah, I would be looking to move her to the two naps. And then think about whether on the days where you're, it's all gone a little bit to pot just in that first week or so of moving her to two naps.
Dr Fallon (36:56)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:13)
Just know that you do have that power nap option that you could give her later on in the day if the first two naps ended up being a little bit earlier on, then you could give her a little power nap later on in the day just to get her through to bedtime. Or if you think that she can manage, just bring bedtime a bit earlier that day.
Dr Fallon (37:30)
Hmm.
Yeah. I reckon I try and avoid it because it sounds like she's waking really early. And if we give too many extra naps or just a lot of extra sleep, the circadian rhythm will just think, yeah, cool. I'll keep waking early because I can catch up on day sleep. And Zoe also asks, should I try not feeding her to sleep? And is there any actual evidence that this assists in nighttime sleep? my gosh. Yeah. From over 35,000 babies, we have evidence that
Dr Laura (37:37)
Mmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (37:56)
Feeding to sleep generally causes a lot of nighttime wakeups. So I'm just going to take that one off the list. There's a ton of evidence. but she says, what's the best way to manage her nighttime wakeups?
Dr Laura (38:01)
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah, so I would be reading through the range of approaches, Zoe, in Somme Bell, choosing the cot settling approach that feels the best for you and your daughter. already can self settle for her naps. So she's got she actually has got that skill and probably with high enough sleep pressure, she may be able to start to generalize those skills to the nighttime sleep. If she doesn't pick one of those settling approaches.
Dr Fallon (38:11)
Mm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (38:32)
use that at the start of the night and then use that same approach to manage the overnight wakes as well.
Dr Fallon (38:39)
Yeah, it's all about that consistency. Awesome.
Dr Laura (38:41)
Hmm yeah.
Catherine has sent an email, Fallon hers is pretty quick, she says how do I work out the length of my baby's sleep cycle?
Dr Fallon (38:51)
Yeah, you've just really got to watch them. So watch them when they're asleep from about the 30 minute mark to around about the 50 minute mark. And you'll notice they'll start to grimace, kind of shuffle around a little bit. And that will usually tell you how long the sleep cycle is. Love that nice quick question. Thanks, Catherine. We have Rosanna who emailed in her son is five and a half months old. He has around a 13 hour sleep need and three to four naps a day.
Dr Laura (39:03)
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.
Dr Fallon (39:15)
He wakes between six and seven a.m. and overnight wakes every one to two hours after an initial three hour stretch. She, yeah, that's tough. She has a question about the quick fade approach. Should we be waiting the full time of padding before we pick him up and give him a cuddle? Although his cries begin as grumbles, they very quickly escalate. Or should we be trying the slow fade approach instead?
Dr Laura (39:21)
Rosanna. Yeah.
All right, so Rosanna, I would say the very first thing would be to look at stabilising that daytime rhythm, if you can, because there's too much variability. There's a whole hour difference in what time he wakes up in the morning, and he sometimes is having four naps and sometimes three. So when we think about...
Dr Fallon (39:49)
Yeah, there's too much variability there.
Dr Laura (40:03)
trialling or starting a new cot settling approach, we really want to make it as easy as possible for your five and a half month old. And if sometimes you're popping him down when he's not quite ready to sleep, he's really going to be unhappy about it no matter what you do. yeah, I would just look at trying to stabilise that daily rhythm and then think through what's gonna suit you and your family best for the settling approach.
Dr Fallon (40:11)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (40:31)
Sometimes it's, we think that we want to use the most hands-on settling approach possible. And it just really winds up some babies because they're like, just stop patting me.
Dr Fallon (40:47)
Yeah, yeah,
I see that all the time as well. Parents are like, oh, I wanted out of the room cause I needed to get something and they just went to sleep and it's like, yep. So I keep doing that. Some babies settle quicker when you're not there. Um, but I think it sounds like Rosanna is unsure thinking maybe we need to go even slower. I would say with that quick fade approach, um, you can pat for as long as you want before you do a cuddle. Generally we sort of say try for five minutes at a time. You're giving lots of hands on support.
Dr Laura (40:55)
Yes!
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (41:13)
once you've worked on that daily rhythm, he should be only going into his cot when he's really ready for sleep. And then it means he's much less likely to get upset about it and more likely to calm down quickly. Yeah, but of course you can consider other approaches. If you try it for a few days and think, this isn't for us. Yeah, try something else. That's totally fine.
Dr Laura (41:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Okay,
so we have an email from Emma who has a 23 month old also nearly hitting two. And Emma says that they've tried the advanced accelerated approach, but their toddler screamed hysterically. So then they switched to the advanced quick fade approach, which yielded mixed results. Emma says that her toddler often lies awake, screams or sits up.
when they stop patting. She says that naps aren't an issue. She has one a day for about an hour and a half, but the nighttime sleep is exhausting, especially because both her and her partner work full time. She says that they struggle with the consistent sleep and wake times due to work, which often leads to late bedtimes and sleeping in.
Dr Fallon (42:05)
You
Dr Laura (42:26)
So she wonders, should they try the accelerated approach again or should they explore other options?
Dr Fallon (42:32)
I'd say it's a very similar answer to Rosanna's question, Emma. I would say you've got to work on that daily rhythm. Her behavior in the cot sounds like there are times when she's being put down and sleep pressure isn't super high. When the daily rhythm varies around a lot, like bedtime and wake time in particular, if they're really drifty day to day, then your child is not having a consistent increase in their sleep drive at the same time each day. So sometimes at 7pm, they might be exhausted and ready for sleep. Other nights, it might be 9pm. And if you're starting
Dr Laura (43:02)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (43:02)
of trying to settle them at 7pm then yeah they're gonna push back for maybe two hours which will be horrible and really really hard.
Dr Laura (43:08)
Yeah, which I know that Emma's longer email and
I'm sorry, Emma, we couldn't include it all just because we need to be a little bit more concise so that we can get through everyone's questions. But she did say that some of the settles are two hours at the start of the night.
Dr Fallon (43:24)
Yeah,
yep. So definitely work on that daily rhythm and it might be that you have to just, yeah, I mean, I don't know their work circumstances. So it's hard to make a suggestion. Try and come up with a bedtime and wake time that is the same. Don't allow for long sleep-ins after tricky nights or on weekends. Keep it really consistent because you will have a much easier time of cot settling once we know she's only going into the cot when that sleep drive is really strong.
So I'd definitely start with that. Then you're really likely to find that the advanced accelerated approach works really, really quickly. So I'd probably give that another try before you go for the advanced quick fade approach.
Dr Laura (43:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, do you want to read the next one, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (44:04)
Great.
Yeah, so Angela has emailed. She says, my son is seven months old, has a 13 and a half hour sleep need and a consistent daily rhythm with three naps. He's an extremely happy baby who self settles and sleeps really well. She keeps saying that at seven months they should be on two naps. However, her son needs to have that third nap at the moment. Does some babies just take longer to drop the third nap or should she be forcing it to prevent any issues?
Dr Laura (44:34)
Angélique, there is a wide range of variability. So it sounds like your son is sleeping beautifully. You included more information in the email and he's going gangbusters. He's doing a really good job. So you do not need to change anything. So he can stay on three naps even until he starts to show the signs that we described in Sombelle. So yep, some babies do just take longer.
Dr Fallon (44:50)
Yep.
Yeah, sounds great.
Dr Laura (45:02)
to transition and that's absolutely fine. So don't change anything yet, Angela, don't be changing it preemptively. Wait until you see some signs. So Melissa has written and says, do we have any extra advice about getting me out of the room when Miss 15 months is trying to put herself to sleep? She says, excuse me, I've tried the parental fading and she isn't coping well with that.
Dr Fallon (45:09)
Yeah, I agree, totally.
Dr Laura (45:28)
I don't actually do anything to help her fall asleep in the cot. She says, thanks to you legends. I still can't believe it. that's nice, Melissa. She just wants me in the room. There's no separation anxiety here. Miss 15 months just wants what she wants.
Dr Fallon (45:32)
Hehehehehe. Hehehehe.
I think it's great that Melissa recognizes this is more about personality and a toddler who's like, no, I want you here just because, I would keep going with the parental fading approach, but I would make it so we haven't really talked about this approach much on the podcast. I would wander out of that room super briefly, perhaps something just outside the door.
Dr Laura (45:48)
Yeah
Dr Fallon (46:02)
drink bottle or something like that. So you can say, I'm just going to get my drink bottle. I'll be right back and just practice those really brief separations. So she realizes that you do always come back and just take your time stretching out that interval. I think that's really all you can do. You know, that she's not frightened or scared or worried. She's totally safe there. she's used to being, you know, in her own room as well. So, I think I would just keep plugging away at it, knowing that they all take their time kind of getting used to these changes.
Dr Laura (46:18)
Mm.
Yeah, just really
small, small increments each night so that she's not getting really upset. I know that she does scream. So yeah, we want her to be so calm. She just doesn't really even notice you in the end coming and going. So yeah, good.
Dr Fallon (46:37)
Yeah.
Yeah. Lots of praise when you come back to can really help as well. Awesome.
And Grace wrote in, she says she's been using the supported accelerated approach with her four and a half month old with great success. After eight days, she started sleeping through amazing. And Grace asks, is it normal for a four and a half month old to have no overnight feeds? Should I be waking her? Although her weight gain is great. this is a really lovely quick answer. Isn't it Laura? It's fine.
Dr Laura (47:12)
Yeah, it's fine. Absolutely fine.
Yep.
Dr Fallon (47:15)
Yeah, some babies they just get rid of those night feeds. like, no, I'm good with my daytime calories. Weight gain's fine. Certainly don't need to wake that baby up for a feed. That sounds brilliant, Grace. Count your lucky stars. But Grace also asks, with no night feeds, her sleep per 24 hours is more like about 14 and a half hours instead of the 13 and a half hours she was doing. Do we think she was calculating it wrong for the first week when they measured it?
Dr Laura (47:27)
Yes.
No, think that sleep needs can fluctuate. Sometimes what we see is before a baby is able to self settle and therefore finds it very hard to resettle overnight. Just that inability to be able to do it themselves is impacting their ability to get all the sleep that they need. And then once you then support them to fall asleep independently in their cot, they then...
Dr Fallon (47:49)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (48:08)
are able to go, right, they can resettle themselves. And then they do get all of the sleep that they need. So sometimes we do see that. And sometimes it goes the other way as well, actually, they, they, they, it drops down. So it's just one of those things, which is why it's always really important. Whenever you're using the songbell, any other songbell approaches is to always, when you
Dr Fallon (48:14)
Hmm.
Yeah, drops down.
Dr Laura (48:34)
have got sleep going really well to offer a little bit more sleep opportunity just to see if they will take some more. And in this instance, Grace's baby has started to take more and that's fine. Okay, so Brooke has emailed and says she has a 23 month old, like somebody else that we like Emma's baby or toddler.
Dr Fallon (48:38)
Mmm.
Yeah that sounds brilliant, very good.
Dr Laura (48:56)
I have a 23 month old who can fall asleep independently but struggles with overnight waking, particularly between 2 and 4 a.m., often shrieking and needing Brooke's help to resettle. So Brooke says that she uses her voice, a dummy, a comforter, and sometimes a feed to soothe her toddler when he wakes. And she's wondering whether she should try for a week to completely drop that last overnight feed.
And if that doesn't stop the wakes, whether it's okay to reintroduce the feed, she says that she personally is not feeling emotionally ready to completely say goodbye to that overnight feed just yet. Do we think that's the right approach?
Dr Fallon (49:36)
Hmm.
Yeah, what a great question. I would say.
definitely work on the daily rhythm a little bit, just check in. If it's a bit of a long wake up that's happening, it might be that we just need to tweak that daily rhythm a little bit and he'll just start to sleep through. At the moment, he's probably thinking, well, all sorts of really nice things might happen if I call out at night. There could be a bit of motivation. He's thinking, well, sometimes I get to hear mom's voice. Sometimes I get a dummy or a teddy, or I might get a feed. So sometimes that variability means they feel really motivated to call out just to kind of say, I wonder what I get tonight.
Dr Laura (50:09)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (50:11)
I think it's really tough. know, if you don't want to drop the feed, you certainly don't have to, Brooke, but dropping the feed is almost definitely going to result in him sleeping through the night. Cause I would say that's probably the key motivator. so have a think and when you're ready, I would say, yeah, make sure the daily rhythms all good. Decide on how you're to resettle him. Be really consistent. Probably after two nights or so with no feed, he will just start sleeping through. You're that close. So when you want to do it, do it. I don't think you'll regret it, Brooke.
Dr Laura (50:21)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And
but much easier if you decide that you are not ready to do it, then just continue to offer one feed a night for the time being he's likely to still wait for it. But you know, when you are ready, drop it, make that decision and then stick with it. Don't flip flop because it's just confusing for him. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (50:47)
Yeah.
Yeah, yep.
I think that's great advice. Olivia says that her four month old went from having 13 hours of sleep to just 12 hours and the days are now highly variable. She says someday she only has about 10 hours of sleep. She says, I know there's a huge range, but 12 hours at four months feels really low. Is there any research showing low sleep needs doesn't impact development or health? Great question. We've got to answer this really fast, it's well, we could do a whole episode on it, couldn't we? Maybe we will.
Dr Laura (51:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, we could.
When we're looking at sleep and sleep having an impact on development, what we're looking at is how fragmented and disturbed that sleep is. And it's whether it's kind of the quality of the sleep that when we have examined in our research studies, we've looked to see how really fragmented sleep is. If your child had really fragmented sleep as a baby, what are their developmental outcomes like when they're older?
Dr Fallon (51:35)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (51:51)
So it's really that that we're looking at the quality. It's not the quantity that is necessarily the issue. So at four months of age, 12 hours is actually perfectly reasonable amount of sleep. It is at the lower end of the range. But if we think about what the National Sleep Foundation says in their recommendations for what's a good amount of sleep for children, 12 hours at four months is actually within their expected range.
Dr Fallon (51:56)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (52:20)
So I wouldn't be worrying about that, Amivia.
Dr Fallon (52:20)
Yeah, yep.
And don't panic if some days it's only 10 hours. If your child's mood is really good, that's the other key factor. Like if they're generally having some happier wake time during the daytime, then they're fine. And sometimes they'll have a 10 hour day and then a 14 hour day and then a 10 hour day and then a 12 hour day. It can go up and down. When you straighten out the daily rhythm and cater to whatever that average is, you'll start to get more predictability day to day.
Dr Laura (52:37)
Mm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (52:47)
Yeah, great question though. And I think we could definitely do a whole episode on that one, Olivia. Yeah, you did good. You did really good. What have we got left? We've got three meaty questions left and not a whole lot of time. So we can do this.
Dr Laura (52:51)
Yeah, I just got I just had to hold myself back from really. yeah. But yeah, we've, yeah. Okay. Okay, let's whoo. Okay. We can. All right.
So Karen emailed and she said in the last week, I've noticed my 21 month old has been waking up once or twice overnight. When previously I didn't really notice any wakes. She says he resettles himself and is not upset. So Karen doesn't have to do anything.
And she asked, should we just continue with how things are until there are more signs or things get worse? Or should we reduce his day naps now? He currently has an hour and a half. Well, that's actually the same answer as we gave to one of the other members earlier. You don't need to change anything. If you're not having to intervene and he's perfectly happy, just, yep, you don't need to change anything. You wait until you see some signs.
Dr Fallon (53:29)
Mmm.
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (53:45)
that he's not
Dr Fallon (53:45)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (53:46)
able to easily resettle himself. He's up for much longer or start in the day really early. I will just leave him to it, Karen, at the moment. Sorry, Fallon, I just jumped in and answered. And she has a follow-up question. She says, what is your advice on having different nap times at daycare versus home? What variants would be too much?
Dr Fallon (53:52)
Hmm.
Yep, definitely. No, no, I think that that's a really good answer.
Hmm.
Well, if they just done one nap, it almost doesn't matter as long as it's not like, you know, four o'clock in the afternoon or something. So the actual time they have the nap, I'm not too worried about if it's roughly midday, give or take an hour or two either side, it's probably not going to make much difference. what matters is if they're having really long naps at home or at daycare and you know, then that can introduce variability, but it doesn't sound like that's the problem. So yeah.
Dr Laura (54:30)
Yeah.
No, I think there's like
15 minutes difference in Karen's toddler's case. So I don't think that that's anything to worry about. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (54:38)
Mmm. Yeah,
yep. I wouldn't be worried. Awesome. We also have a few questions from Jeanette who has a five month old and she thinks that her five month old has a sleep need of about 12 and a half to 13 hours. Jeanette says, we mostly co-slept for the first few months of her life until recently we've always fed to sleep at bedtime.
Dr Laura (54:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (55:00)
The other week, was essentially forced to begin step two of the slow fade approach when she began waking every 15 minutes when I would unlatch her at bedtime. Unfortunately, since she began waking every 15 minutes, it's meant that I'm both trying to work on cot settling and understanding her sleep needs better at the same time. So she's sort of been thrown in the deep end for Jeanette. And she said, yeah, I can't become an all night pacifier. Of course you can't, you've got to protect your own sleep.
Dr Laura (55:19)
you
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (55:27)
So Jeanette asks, do you have any tips for navigating this duality? We're finding that she appears extra exhausted during the day and I have to work to keep her naps between two to two and a half hours long. Should we start with that and then maybe move on to the other questions?
Dr Laura (55:43)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I think it is quite a common experience that you're having there, Jeanette. A lot of people do come to Somme Bell because the sleep's fallen over. They're having their babies having so many wakes a night and every 15 minutes just sounds like torture. So I really feel for you. That's very, very hard because your baby's not even doing sleep cycles. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (55:58)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah.
And it really tells us that sleep drive is really low. So there's some daily rhythm work to be done. If they're not able to get into the deeper part of the sleep cycle, yeah, something's a little off with the daily rhythm. So I'd definitely be tracking her sleep really closely and being quite rigid with that daily rhythm when you apply it. Sorry, Laura, I've cut into your answer.
Dr Laura (56:08)
Yes.
Yeah, no, that's fine.
And I think probably staying on sticking with the slow fade approach whilst you are logging your baby's sleep is a really good idea. So you're being really consistent whilst you're logging your baby's sleep. then, you know, she's probably because she is waking so much overnight, we do know that the sleep pressure is off.
So given you've already worked out, you think it's somewhere between 12 and a half to 13 hours, probably is. Don't you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (56:55)
Hmm.
Yeah, I would just go with it. I'd probably just go 12 and a half hours. Let's start with that and build a schedule around that and go with it. And it sounds like Jeanette's kind of working on the cot settling already. So that's the sort of padding and humming off to sleep. And I'd just be trying to do that as consistently as possible and building in some support around you at this time to make it a little easier to get through typically just to give Jeanette some hope.
Dr Laura (56:59)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (57:21)
after two to three nights of just only settling that one way in the cot with the padding and shushing, they really start to make good progress and start to be less bothered about being in there. So you're probably not too far away from having a bit of a breakthrough. I've jumped ahead. Let me read out the rest of Jeanette's question. She says also she goes down well usually for her three naps but is struggling at bedtime. She says either she fights for over 45 minutes or there will be a false start.
Dr Laura (57:37)
Mmm.
you
Dr Fallon (57:50)
She says, last night she woke up five times. She says, I know that should mean there's not enough sleep pressure, but she also seems exhausted. If we push her longer between the last nap and bedtime. We've tried doing a power nap and she is happier, but at the same time, but is it the same at bedtime? She says, I don't think I could trim back any more sleep from her. She's exhausted and so am I. poor Janette, that's really tough.
Dr Laura (58:06)
you
yeah, I think it is going to be tough. What I want you to think about Jeanette is that when you're popping her down at bedtime, it's still taking a further 45 minutes for her to go to sleep. it's even though you're popping her down and you're starting to settle her, it's taking another 45 minutes. So she is actually awake for another 45 minutes before she goes to sleep.
Dr Fallon (58:27)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (58:41)
So if you're thinking about, can't stretch her, well, she's already stretching herself because even with all of that support you're giving her, Jeanette, she's not able to go to sleep easily at the start of the night. So maybe if you think, just have that in your mind so that you're not feeling bad that you are keeping her up for longer than she can be up for.
Dr Fallon (58:48)
sort of stretching herself.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (59:11)
No,
you're actually just saying, well, she's not falling asleep for another 45 minutes. Well, I might as well then just have her up and she may be cranky and grumpy, but she's cranky and grumpy when you're padding her in the cot anyway. So I'd be thinking, well, have some nice cuddles with her, go for a walk with her, have a longer bath or shower with her just to stretch her for a bit longer because she's awake anyway. But just don't.
Dr Fallon (59:21)
Mmm.
Yeah
Yeah and then the
pressure's not on you to be in that dark room trying and trying and trying to settle which is exhausting and a bit soul-destroying I think at times so yeah you're better off just doing something a bit different and then yeah trying. I think these situations are tricky and I think just to sort of summarise this for Jeanette
Dr Laura (59:43)
Yes!
Dr Fallon (59:57)
Think about the 12 and a half hours, decide on the daily rhythm. So it sounds like three naps is the way to go for now. What is your bedtime gonna be? What is the wake up time gonna be? And try and match the bedtime with when she's normally falling asleep at the moment, just like what you've described, Laura. And then with the cot settling, lots of hands on support, do your padding and your shushing if you need to, and know that after two or three days of consistently using that for each settle.
Dr Laura (1:00:12)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:00:22)
She'll be okay with it. She'll understand. I'm really well supported here. It's not so bad after all. It's not quite a fee to sleep, but it's still pretty comfortable and pretty lovely. And then you can phase out the padding and humming. And once that's phased out, she'll, you know, you'll be able to put it down, say good night, wander away, and she'll just know what to do. So Jeanette's in that really sticky, she's sort of in the trench right now. And it's super tough to see the light at the top of the trench, but it is there. You're going to get through this.
Dr Laura (1:00:26)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yes, she is.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (1:00:47)
So just, yeah, I would say follow through on those steps. I think there's a lot of parents in the same boat as Jeanette, but it does turn around quickly and you're gonna get through this.
Dr Laura (1:00:52)
Mmm.
Yeah, you will. And book a coaching call if you want to talk it through Jeanette because sometimes just having a chat with Fallon is very helpful. I find it very helpful to have lots of chats with Fallon about a range of different things. I'm very lucky.
Dr Fallon (1:01:01)
Mmm.
Hahaha!
I'm often giving you a pep talk about all sorts
of things, not just sleep. Last question. Yep.
Dr Laura (1:01:13)
Okay, so moving on to our last question now. Yeah, so
this is from Elise. Elise has a six and a half month old daughter who until recently was on three 40 minute naps a day and sleeping through the night, which was awesome. However, about a week ago, Elise says I dropped her to two naps as it was more often than not taking her a long time to fall asleep for her final nap, the third nap of the day.
Dr Fallon (1:01:30)
Lovely.
Dr Laura (1:01:43)
and now she's seeming quite tired about an after hour sorry say that again she seems quite tired about an hour after i wake her from any of her sleeps why do we think that is and do we have any tips
Dr Fallon (1:01:58)
Yeah, at least you're in that really tricky phase. It's really hard going from, well, just dropping any nap. There's always going to be a couple of weeks that are just kind of like, they kind of need it. They kind of don't. And it is really tough. I would say so often I suggest to parents when you drop a nap, consider just adding a little bit more sleep to one of the naps, just to make that transition a little bit easier. You might then find they can cope with the longer awake window a bit better.
Dr Laura (1:02:05)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:02:24)
And if after a few days you're thinking, hang on, this is starting to impact their night, actually the night's getting a bit wobbly, then dial back that day's sleep and sort of get the balance back on track. So yeah, I would give that a try just adding in probably a little bit more sleep to one of those naps and you might just find she makes it through the day a bit more easily. And if it does start to impact the nights, you'll know to drop it back again.
Dr Laura (1:02:31)
Mm.
Yeah, awesome.
Dr Fallon (1:02:46)
Awesome.
What a great episode. have like powered through Laura. We have done so good. There's so many questions in there. my goodness. I hope that we aren't leaving parents feeling completely bamboozled as we rush through all of these. and we hope that they're really helpful. If you, if we've answered one of your questions and you think, gosh, I really need to know more about that. Please book a coaching call. There are just going to be some questions where we can't give you the absolute perfect answer on a podcast. Cause we haven't seen you sleep diary.
Dr Laura (1:02:50)
you
Dr Fallon (1:03:15)
There's a million questions more we would like to ask all of these parents to give them really, really great advice. So that's what the coaching calls are there for. If you need one, please book in. I think there's a few still left next week actually. So it's not too long to wait. I want to thank Jess, Rach and Cat who all bought us coffees during the week, which was so, so lovely. If you love our podcast and want to give us a little treat, you can follow the link in the show notes and buy us a cuppa. And if you love
Dr Laura (1:03:18)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
yes.
Dr Fallon (1:03:45)
podcast, course, please leave us a review if you're needing help with sleep or settling. Join Sunbell. It's a great program full of resources that will help you. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. Have I forgotten anything, Laura?
Dr Laura (1:03:59)
No,
think you just you've managed to wrap it all up nicely there. He's putting a little bow on the end of the podcast. So I think I need to go and have a lie down now. I'm to go and have a nap. That was a big one. Thank you so much to everybody who has sent through their questions. When you do send through questions, it would be wonderful if you can try to keep them as brief as possible and just highlight the specific questions that you have.
Dr Fallon (1:04:08)
Yeah, head is spinning. It was a big one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (1:04:28)
And that just makes it a bit easier for us to pinpoint the pain that you are experiencing so that we can answer the question as best as possible in this format. And we can help you much more comprehensively then I feel.
Dr Fallon (1:04:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. And please don't DM us on social media with your questions because they get missed all the time. I'm constantly going into the request folder and going, my gosh, this poor person sent this weeks ago. Please email them to us at [email protected]. And it's only for members. So if you're not a member, you are not going to get your answer. So keep that in mind as well. Thank you, everyone, for all the support. Every single one of these emails had lovely things to say about Sombelle. And I wish we had time to read them all out. We love your feedback.
Dr Laura (1:04:53)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:05:16)
It means the world to us and it gives us well, it gives us a pep talk and makes us go. Yes, we've got to keep this going. We've got to find our energy and keep going because it is helping so many families. So thank you to each and every one of you and we'll be back again next week with a brand new episode.
Dr Laura (1:05:20)
It does!
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
