Dr Fallon (00:00)
You finally did it. Your baby or toddler is falling asleep happily in their cot. They're sleeping beautifully and only occasionally need you to attend to them overnight. Your baby is happier and more content than ever and you finally feel human again. But all of a sudden your little one learns how to sit or stand in their cot.
and suddenly bedtime becomes an acrobatic performance and those easy settles feel like they have evaporated. If this is you, don't worry. You're encountering a very common hurdle, but it can be overcome. Today, you're going to learn what to do when your little one starts to use the cot for playtime.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. We are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, how has your weekend been?
Dr Laura (01:07)
Yeah, it's been good. Thank you. I've been very productive. Clearing out some cupboards that were starting to groan under the weight of clothes that the kids had outgrown and things that I didn't need anymore. So I was doing a little bit of a clear out and that always feels good somehow. It makes me feel better when I've had a bit of a clear out.
Dr Fallon (01:09)
Good
Hahaha
yeah.
Yes,
it's nice, isn't it? To just get rid of the stuff they don't need anymore. I did a pantry clean out the other week and oh my Lord, I realized we were only using about like the front two inches of every shelf and behind that was just like, you know, that random stuff you just, you never gonna eat or it's wildly out of date. I had the biggest clear out and the kids were like, there's no food. I was like, no, actually this is the same amount of food. You just actually see it now.
Dr Laura (01:43)
Yes.
Yeah, I got some of those little turnstile things to have in my cupboard, just to try to stop that happening. Because yeah, things get pushed to the back and then that's it. can't, you lose track of it. So anyway, we do all these things, don't we, to try to manage the household better. And I'm sure that our listeners have also got little tricks that they use to try to manage the clothes and the food at home.
Dr Fallon (02:01)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah. Well, we're about to, um, as you know, Laura knocked the back off our house and do quite a big reno, which is a bit terrifying. And I'm currently looking at just all the piles of stuff lying around the house and thinking, what are we going to do? Cause we're going to be having to live like, there's going to be a coffee machine on a table in the hallway and we'll be using the bathroom sink to wash dishes. It's going to be absolute madness.
Dr Laura (02:32)
yes.
my goodness.
Dr Fallon (02:47)
But I'm just like, okay, I've just got to start cleaning things out and putting some stuff in storage. Like we don't need all of our books right now. We can, you know, pack some things away and just clear a bit of space. So yeah, the next few months are going to be completely wild. I'm half expecting that people will be able to see in my background. There'll probably be like a washer and a dryer and like maybe a refrigerator, a television. It's, I think my office is going to end up being a bit of a secondary storage unit.
Dr Laura (02:51)
Mmm.
No.
Yeah, you're
gonna have a screen behind you probably next week so that we can't see.
Dr Fallon (03:19)
Yeah, I'll just turn my desk
so you just see the wall and that's when you know I'll be in the throes of the the reno It'll be worth it in the end.
Dr Laura (03:24)
Yeah, because it's not like you live in a big place,
I mean, that's why you're doing a renovation, but you're in a very small cottage with the three children and the three ducks. So yeah, and the three ducks, mustn't forget Mabel, Sadie and Eleanor, is it? Eleanor, yeah.
Dr Fallon (03:30)
Yeah, it's tiny.
Yeah.
And the three ducks. And Eleanor, yes. Yep.
Yeah. Well, at least they've got their own little house in the backyard. That's one blessing. And it's currently strewn with feathers. It looks very alarming, but they're all molting. So they look really like little ugly ducks. They've got feathers poking out everywhere. And anyway, it's very funny to watch. But anyway, that's enough about ducks. That's not what this episode's about.
Dr Laura (03:48)
Yeah?
Awww.
Yeah. Yeah. No. Cut
shenanigans instead.
Dr Fallon (04:07)
Yes, cot shenanigans. my gosh. I love hearing all the funny things that babies and toddlers get up to once they kind of become a bit more aware of what their bodies are capable of. It can be very funny, but it can be incredibly frustrating for poor parents who have like, so often, you know, you've managed to get sleep relatively sorted and it's going great. And then, yeah, they develop a new skill and they're like, great, this cot is the best apparatus for me pulling myself up and like.
Dr Laura (04:19)
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (04:36)
Yes, it's tricky.
Dr Laura (04:37)
Yeah, do you know, I often
think, Fallon, when families are in the clinic kind of tearing their hair out and they're saying, you know, this is what my bigger baby or toddler is doing, I just can hear you saying, if you were to design the best piece of apparatus for a child to practice standing up, or whatever it is they're doing, jumping on the spot, the cot would be it.
Dr Fallon (04:52)
You
Yeah, yep. Those bars
on the side they can grab onto or they can hold them to the top. Yeah. It really is like it was designed for that purpose and not for sleep at all. but yeah. So let's have a chat through that because it can feel like the end of the world and it absolutely is not, but there are some really great tips. I think all parents should be across so that when it does happen, you know how to get through that tricky patch in the quickest possible timeframe.
Dr Laura (05:07)
Yeah.
No.
Dr Fallon (05:30)
So let's start with when these things start to happen. So
Babies will often start kind of pulling themselves up to sit probably from around about six months. Sometimes it's a bit later though. Like there's really big variability baby to baby. Some of them can be sat up and they'll stay there. And it's a while until they can actually get themselves up into that position really.
Dr Laura (05:40)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah. And then it's more like around, well, again, with the pulling themselves to standing, there's even wider variation I feel than the sitting. So some little ones that are only nine months old might be doing it and others might not do it for much, much longer than that.
Dr Fallon (06:00)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Huge variation. and I think one of the questions parents often want to know is like, is this just going to be like a temporary rough patch or, know, has everything just completely fallen apart and it's, they're never going to sleep again. What do you tend to tell parents, Laura?
Dr Laura (06:21)
Yeah.
Look, I wish that there was just a simple answer, but as ever, it depends on the child. So for some babies, they, you you may have one or two tricky settles and then they kind of just stop doing it. They're like, yeah, that's boring. And I don't want to practice that anymore. And they just start to go to sleep easily again.
while for others, you know, a week has passed and they're still, you know, keep setting themselves up or they keep pulling themselves up to standing. And they're just having the best game ever at bedtime with mum or dad. And they're seeing, this is great. This is a wonderful way to have even more interaction with mum and dad at bedtime. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (06:57)
Yes
Yeah, yeah, so
it kind of depends, doesn't it? Because some of them...
It sort of depends how parents have responded. I think in a way, if they suddenly go, like if they've had a really consistent bedtime routine, you know, and for months they know that we do this routine and then, you know, mom or dad sits over there and they leave the room or whatever. Um, and I put myself to sleep. They've probably never really thought that it could really go any other way, but then suddenly they stand up and mom or dad goes, Oh my gosh. You know, and you know, if you go over there and go, what are you doing standing up for? Or, you know, have some kind of different interaction. They suddenly go, Oh, so if I.
Dr Laura (07:15)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:42)
sit or stand or do something funny in my cot crawl around, I can actually change how bedtime goes. And sometimes they grab hold of that and they're like, this is great. What other things can I do? And that's when it can unravel a little bit. And parents are suddenly going, my gosh, what happened to my good little sleeper? They're now having this little acrobatic session every night or sometimes during the night as well.
Dr Laura (07:52)
Yes!
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, that's right. And they just keep sitting up whilst they're getting that response from you. And particularly if you have responded with a my goodness. Because then they're beaming at you like, whoa.
Dr Fallon (08:18)
Yeah, look at you! Mum
loves this! Let's do it more!
Dr Laura (08:23)
I did a great thing! Dad
thinks it's wonderful when I stand up! I'm gonna keep doing it! Yeah. Yeah, so cute.
Dr Fallon (08:32)
so much. So let's maybe,
yeah, let's talk through some of the really important factors to really think about if you're approaching this phase or maybe you're in the heat of it. I would say one of the first things I would want every parent to start with is just thinking about whether there has been a recent drop in sleep needs. And the reason I say that is because sometimes
Dr Laura (08:39)
Mm.
Hmm.
you
Dr Fallon (08:57)
You know, we know sleep needs gradually decline over time and sometimes they start to drop off a little bit. And that's when babies or toddlers go, I'm not so tired as I normally am. Maybe I'll try sitting up or standing or jumping up and down. so it's not that their sleep's disrupted because of this new skill. It's more that the sleep needs dropped and they kind of went, well, this is boring. I don't feel like going to sleep. Let's try out something different.
Dr Laura (09:13)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (09:23)
And if you're trying to get them to go to sleep like they used to, it's going to be an uphill battle because they're just not tired enough. So it could be time to, you know, maybe they're ready to drop a day nap or you need to trim back day sleep a little bit, or they need to push their bedtime a little bit later. I probably sound like a broken record, but I really do think thinking about that daily rhythm and you know, how much sleep pressure is built up and how are they really ready for sleep is just such an important first step.
Dr Laura (09:23)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely. you know, sometimes we hear in clinic parents say, well, they were a really great sleeper until they could pull themselves up to standing. And that's what's made things really hard. And, you know, sometimes I reflect to parents and say, well, if you think about when you were putting them down before they pulled themselves up to standing or before they sat up, do you know roughly how long it was taking them to fall asleep? And they might say,
entirely sure or they might say, oh, you know, probably within about 20 minutes. And, you know, I might've just been sitting on the chair as they went off to sleep or I'd just come in and out of the room and double check on them. And then I say to them, well, back then, before they had that skill of being able to sit up or pull themselves up to standing, they were just really lying there a little bit bored. They might've been sucking on their thumb or their dummy and just eventually drift off to sleep.
Dr Fallon (10:44)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (10:46)
And now actually they're able to stand up and they're just much more mobile. And so parents are then more aware of it. And then it feels like, yeah, then it feels like that sleep onset time is really pushing out and it's taking a long time to fall asleep. But actually it's not, it's just that it's just much more in your face that they are not yet going to sleep. Yeah, that's right.
Dr Fallon (10:53)
They're noticing it.
Yeah, yeah, you can see the party happening.
So yeah, definitely making sure they're tired enough. And I think for some parents, we just would say, look, if they're carrying on like a bit of a workshop for 20 minutes, maybe push bed time 20 minutes later, just so that when you're putting them down, they're feeling really tired and really ready for sleep. And sometimes that can reduce the, the
Dr Laura (11:16)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (11:32)
level of party that they achieve in their cot. Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:34)
Yes. Yeah, they're just much more tired.
And also if they then see that you're just really sticking to that very familiar, similar bedtime routine, and that you're not really deviating too much from what you have been doing already at bedtime, then they'll see that, you know, this is just boring. It's familiar.
Dr Fallon (11:46)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (12:02)
I'm not getting any extra fun out of this bedtime. I might as well just lie down and take myself off to sleep.
Dr Fallon (12:12)
Yeah, I would say that's, that would have to be such an important tip because if you've already kind of got these habits instilled, like if your child is used to falling asleep without needing a lot of hands on support or having you around.
The last thing you want to do when they start to sit or stand in their cot is to make some big change. Like some parents will say, they just keep standing up. So now I've got to hold them and rock them to sleep. and then you've got a whole big new habit where you've tried to work away from that again and get back to more independent settling.
Dr Laura (12:36)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (12:43)
so I would be really trying not to change what happens when your child falls asleep. really try to keep to the habits that you've instilled. Even if it takes a little bit longer for them to settle down, that's probably better for most families than to start introducing some whole new way of falling asleep. Often when, especially toddlers, when they get a taste for it, they're like, I didn't know that if I stood up, I might get an extra feed or cuddles or have a chat with mom.
Dr Laura (12:50)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes!
Yeah,
Dr Fallon (13:13)
And they just, remember.
Dr Laura (13:13)
I'll be rocked to sleep on the recliner.
Dr Fallon (13:16)
Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, this is actually awesome. I'm definitely going to keep standing up and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So definitely try and stick to what you have been doing, even if it takes longer, be boring. Yeah. Be repetitive. And I would say the final key tip. When I say this, I'm wondering if there's some parents at home that are like jotting these down, like, okay, tip one, tip two, tip three. Cause I know how desperate it can feel in the moment.
Dr Laura (13:21)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (13:42)
But the last one I would say is really don't get into a loop where you are just, they stand up, you lay them down. They stand up, you lay them down and you're just constantly hovering over their cot, trying to keep them or some parents will say, they sit up. So I keep my hands on them to stop them from sitting up. You don't want to get sort of stuck in this loop where babies or toddlers go, this is brilliant. The longer I keep standing up and rolling around and doing all these things, the longer I can keep mom or dad here or another caregiver here.
Dr Laura (13:58)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (14:11)
interacting with me. And so then they're not focusing on going to sleep. They're thinking, this is this really cool little Jack in a box game I've got going now, where I spring up and then dad gives me a cuddle and lays me down. And it goes on and on and on. So we typically say, don't we Laura, to just wait a moment, really brief interval, let them feel a little frustrated and think, it really worth standing up? What sort of process do you recommend to families?
Dr Laura (14:15)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So, I remind families that going to sleep, part of going to sleep is being able to let go of what's going on around you to kind of really start to, when we're creating that lovely bedroom environment, we're trying to keep what they babies can see, hear, smell, touch to a minimum, like really low sensory input. so
we want to, not give them so much input that every, you know, every time they stand up, you're just giving them the input of cuddle, putting them back down. cause that's just not going to help them, go off to sleep and to do that letting go. So, yeah, generally I suggest, just waiting a moment. So when your baby sits up or, stands up, just hold off for a really short period of time.
Dr Fallon (15:15)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (15:30)
before you then go over and then try and lie them down. If they're a littler baby, often that's a bit easier to lie them down. If they're a toddler, then you might try and lie them down or you can say to them, lie down, go to sleep, but try not to get into a battle with them if they're holding on really intensely to that, the cot rail. You might say, lie down, try and lie them down. And if they won't just give them a kiss and just rub their back and then just...
Dr Fallon (15:50)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (15:58)
step away, know, go and sit on the chair or sit beside the cot or leave the room for a just short period of time again, before you go back over. Then when you lie them down, if they stand straight back up again, then just hold off, wait for a moment before you lay them down again, because otherwise it's just a game of whack-a-mole up down, up down, up down. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (16:07)
Hmm.
Yeah.
it is, isn't it? And they need
to feel that bit of frustration. So if they pull themselves up to stand, a lot of parents will say, they don't know how to sit themselves back down or get back into that sleep position. And you're right, sometimes for a little while, they don't know how to do that. But we need them to kind of stand up and then go, now what? And if they're waiting 30 seconds or something for you to get over there, or maybe it's a minute in that time, they're thinking, well, this is frustrating. It's not changing anything that's going on. And now I'm not sure how to get back down.
Dr Laura (16:26)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (16:46)
they almost need to feel a little bit frustrated at their own actions. And then that's what's, you know, every time they stand up, they just gotta wait 30 seconds for you to get there. They're feeling much less motivated to do it because it's not very fun. There's no sort of immediate reward of you showing up and doing something. So I think it's definitely a lot to be said for that. Allowing them to just feel that little bit of frustration before you go in and kind of rescue them and lay them down again can work really, really well.
Dr Laura (16:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (17:12)
And for older toddlers as well, preschoolers even, a lot of parents will say, there's no point in me going over there. They get really riled up and annoyed because they think I'm going to pick them up for a cuddle and then I'm actually telling them to settle down. they'll, parents will say, I just sit in the chair in the room or maybe they're outside the room, whatever their setup is. And every couple of minutes, they'll just say, lie down, it's time for sleep.
Dr Laura (17:24)
yes.
Dr Fallon (17:35)
And that's it. There's no chatter. We're not having conversations, not discussing world politics with our three year olds, even though they might show a very sudden interest in such things at bedtime. But it's just keeping it short and sweet. Just lie down. It's time for sleep. And you just keep repeating that. And that gets boring really, really quickly for toddlers.
Dr Laura (17:35)
Yeah.
You
Yeah.
Yeah. And when we've got bedtime
right, so that it's not too early, they are tired, their sleep pressure will be nice and high. They will be ready to sleep. And so, you know, when they see that it's just boring, what mum or dad does, then they're less motivated to keep on doing it. They're more likely to just stay lying down and drift off to sleep. Because they're not getting any big reward or anything motivating them to keep going.
Dr Fallon (17:59)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, it's so important, isn't it? And I say to parents too, when your child does something like sitting up or standing in it's playtime, you're in the living room in the daytime, make a big fuss, make them feel really proud, go, wow, look at you, you're so big and strong. Just don't do that at bedtime because we just want to show them that difference that when it's bedtime and it's dark and it's time for sleep, we don't do those things. And it just takes that practice really.
Dr Laura (18:36)
No.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (18:47)
And
so often parents are through that phase before they even know it. They become pretty boring, pretty repetitive when their babies or toddlers are doing these things and the babies and toddlers pretty quickly go, yeah, it's not really that fun after all. And then, yeah, they're back to their old settling ways.
Dr Laura (18:51)
Yeah.
No.
And just a word on
that daytime interaction. If you do have a younger baby who you know hasn't quite yet mastered how to get back down onto their bottom after they have stood up, think about having a game in the sitting room, not in the cot. So maybe in the sitting room where you incorporate standing up and sitting down in the game. Like for example, having some rubber duckies and you might put a mummy duck.
up on the cushion of a sofa for them to pull themselves up to stand to get the mother ducky. And then you might have some mini rubber duckies down by their feet that they then need to sit down to put mommy with the baby duckies. Or you know, some such game where it's just they need to stand up and sit down again. And you will find then that they're just practicing that motion when they are bright and alert and awake. And then that may start to generalize to nighttime as well.
Dr Fallon (19:42)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's such fantastic advice. I love that you call it a sitting room. It's such a UK thing, a sitting room. And then I was thinking when you were talking, well, yeah, they're practicing sitting. So it's probably quite appropriate.
Dr Laura (20:10)
what?
Or
a living room or lounge. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (20:21)
Well, we've
had some great parent questions coming this week. Our first question from Catherine is super relevant and really inspired the content of today's podcast episode. So I'll read this one out Laura. And yeah, I'd say a lot of things we just talked about are quite relevant to Catherine. So she says, my daughter turns two next month and we got to the stage where we could sit next to her cot, hands off and she would fall asleep and sleep through the night.
Dr Laura (20:30)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (20:51)
However, in the last couple of weeks, she has been resisting bedtime, standing in her cot and refusing to lie down. This goes on for over an hour. We've tried the advanced accelerated approach to no avail. She has started waking up overnight upset, often needing to be held or brought into our bed, which we are desperate not to return to. She currently has one nap for between one to two hours.
Dr Laura (21:02)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (21:18)
She wakes up at 6 a.m. and the bedtime they're aiming for is 7 p.m. So what advice have you got for Catherine?
Dr Laura (21:27)
yeah, I think a lot of what we just talked through is going to be really relevant to, to Catherine and her daughter. so look, the first thing that jumps out at me is, that it's taking up to an hour for Catherine's daughter to go to sleep at the start of the night. And that's really a long sleep onset latency. It's, it's known as, and it's really telling me that the sleep pressure probably isn't
Dr Fallon (21:43)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (21:54)
quite high enough when Catherine is putting her daughter to bed at seven o'clock. And so then I'd be looking at the reasons for why that might be. And looking at what Catherine says is happening for the day nap, there's quite a bit of variability. So that nap might be an hour or it might be two hours. And that's going to have a big impact on how tired her daughter is then going to be at seven o'clock at night.
Dr Fallon (22:21)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (22:23)
If she's had a nice long nap, she's just probably not going to be ready for sleep until a bit later. So I'd be thinking about reducing the nap duration to the most common time. So if that's an hour, an hour and a half, then perhaps use that as her nap duration and then look at moving bedtime, maybe half an hour later, for example, without seeing the full sleep diary. can't advise in heaps of detail.
Dr Fallon (22:36)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (22:52)
And then I would say that you're much more likely to have that success with using that cot settling approach because she's going to be that much more tired when you're using it.
Dr Fallon (22:59)
Mmm.
Yeah,
it makes such a difference, especially when I hear that someone has tried something like the advanced accelerated approach or the supported accelerated approach without success, because I would say 99.9 % of the time, if that approach is a very consistent approach, and if it's been applied correctly, really consistently, it should just work. It will just work. So if it hasn't,
Dr Laura (23:23)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (23:28)
and you haven't made progress, it's going to be sleep pressure. It just will be, there's going to be a daily rhythm issue that needs to be sorted out. So I would definitely, yeah, be working on that first and then, and then go back to maybe the advanced accelerated approach. Once you're really confident that daily rhythm is good and she's really super tired at bedtime. Yeah, it's the repetition and the boringness and the not any of it in your response when she's standing. And that's, that's what's really going to get things back on track.
Dr Laura (23:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:58)
Yeah, so thanks for setting in your question, Catherine. It's such a good one and just so relevant to so many parents. Let us know how you get on.
Dr Laura (24:03)
Yeah,
yeah, definitely. And just when you're using those really short intervals, Catherine, just think about waiting before you go, wait till the end of the interval before you go to speak to your daughter about lying down and giving her that physical reassurance. So yeah, so you're not in that whack-a-mole situation that we were just describing earlier where she keeps standing up and you keep lying her down, like really, really instantly.
Dr Fallon (24:13)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (24:30)
Yeah, good. All right. So our next question is from Kelly. Kelly is a single mum with an eight and a half month old. And Kelly says, to date, I have been breastfeeding to sleep at night and I feed my baby back to sleep once or twice overnight. He's healthy and growing well. So I know he does not need the milk he's having overnight. I have two goals I'd like to pursue over the next month as I prepare to go back to work. So firstly,
Dr Fallon (24:32)
Good.
Dr Laura (24:59)
stop feeding overnight and secondly cot settling as opposed to feeding to sleep for night time sleeping. Kelly says I'm unsure which is best to tackle first what do you suggest? She then goes on to add I do note that often your advice about reducing night feeds recommends the other parent taking some of the load but as a single mum this isn't an option for me. So what do you reckon Fallon?
Dr Fallon (25:27)
this is such a great question, Kelly Laura and I were actually talking about this before we started recording the episode, because we both sort of think about this type of issue in different ways. And maybe what we'll do is we'll explain how, you know, sort of how we'd approach it as individuals. And you can have a think Kelly about what would suit your baby best and your situation best, because I think it definitely depends on, you know, temperament and what you feel you can manage as well.
Dr Laura (25:52)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:54)
So when it comes to this type of problem, you do we drop the night feeds first or do we work on the cot settling? Should we do them both together? I tend to lean towards stopping the overnight feeds first and then working on cot settling. This can work really well if you're really wondering how on earth you're going to manage making lots of changes at once. For some parents, they're like, look, I'll drop the feeds before the cot settling. So I know that I can just do whatever I need to do to get them back to sleep. Lots of cuddles.
Dr Laura (26:13)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (26:23)
Rocking, bouncing, whatever you want to do is fine. You're just focusing on dropping the night feeds. Once that's done, then you start to work on the cot settling. So if that feels more manageable for you, that is totally an option. But I know Laura, you often approach it in a slightly different way. Do you want to explain what, what your thoughts are?
Dr Laura (26:40)
Hmm.
Yeah. So sometimes what I find is that, if you have a baby who has that really strong need to feed to sleep and then feed back to sleep every time that they wake overnight, if you're on your own and you don't have another partner, you don't have a partner there to help when you are then trying to support your baby to go back to sleep without the feed, which involves a lot of contact, like cuddling, pacing, walking around.
Dr Fallon (27:07)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (27:09)
some babies get really, really irate because they are literally being held against the boob that they want. And in that instance, their behaviour can become even more escalated because they're like, it's right there. Let me at it. And then they can become more and more upset. then as the mum, you then become more and more upset.
Dr Fallon (27:16)
Yes.
Yeah, why are you doing this? Yes.
Dr Laura (27:35)
So it really depends on the child. Now in Kelly's case, her baby is only waking maybe once or twice overnight for a feed. So perhaps they'll actually tolerate being cuddled back to sleep rather than being fed back to sleep when Kelly makes the decision to drop the feeding overnight. And then that won't be so much of an issue. if you, Kelly, if you do feel that your baby is gonna go.
Dr Fallon (27:36)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (28:03)
absolutely berserk at being so close to the boobs, literally on the boobs, and you're not offering the feed, then you may well want to do the cot settling at the same time as dropping the overnight feed. So that's kind of where my mind goes. So I think if there's somebody else, it yeah, have I have I convinced you? Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:18)
Yeah. There's a strong case for, yeah. No, well, yeah, you almost have, because I was just thinking, this
is why you've got to think about the individual parent and the baby is like, if it's only one or two night wakes, it might just feel easier to just go, no, I'll keep them in the cot, lots of hands on support, but yeah, not going to do cuddling or anything else. We're just going to work on cot settling and dropping the feeds all at once. Cause you might find after two nights, there's no feeds and no night wakes. It's done really nice and quickly.
Dr Laura (28:46)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:47)
So it's just gonna depend on what you feel is most manageable and with whichever option, I would say just be really consistent in how you apply it and know that often it's just two nights with no feeds and they forget all about them, you know, and you're at the other side and that's so important when you've got work to manage as well, Kelly.
Dr Laura (28:55)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think Kelly and other listeners that, you know, if you're following other accounts online, where they're very set with, is the one thing you must do. I'm very, very rigid. hope that having that listening to Fallon and I, who are both really trained and experienced in helping parents support their little ones sleep. Hearing that we have
Dr Fallon (29:19)
Mm.
Dr Laura (29:34)
two different ways of thinking about it just gives you the confidence as well to understand that it actually just is not a one size fits all. And you really have to think about your own family situation, how you yourself are going to be able to cope and how you feel that your baby is going to be able to cope. So yeah, have a think Kelly about what's going to work best for you. Because you
Dr Fallon (29:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (30:00)
could do as Fallon suggests, just work on just supporting your little one to go to sleep and go back to sleep overnight, any which way within safe guidelines, and then work on cot settling, or do it all at once. If you feel that they're just not going to tolerate being cuddled or bounced or rocked in your arms when they want to get at the boob. So it could go either way and either of those approaches is going to work as long as you're 100 % consistent.
Dr Fallon (30:22)
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. Let us know how you go, Kelly. And yeah, good luck. You're not going to know yourself once you get out the other side of this. Laura, we have a short question from Nicole who says, I have the sound of running water playing throughout the night and for day naps for my eight month old. Although I'm in no rush to do so, how is the best, what is the best way to stop using the white noise? And is there a particular age that you would recommend dropping it all together?
Dr Laura (30:36)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So generally, good way of weaning off white noise is just over a few nights to reduce the volume and also reduce the volume during the day as well. And you just do it a little bit at a time until it's just so quiet that your little one has got used to falling asleep without it. So it's just over a few days just dropping the use of it rather than doing it really suddenly.
And in terms of whether there's a particular age that you'd recommend, that we'd recommend dropping it. No, not really. If you've got, if you're living on a busy road or if you're living in the bush and there's lots of birds outside and you've got a child who's really sensitive to different sounds and sharp sounds and sudden sounds, you might want to continue using the white noise well into their toddlerhood or, you know, once they're three or four.
Dr Fallon (31:29)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (31:51)
But if you or until they're an adult, yeah.
Dr Fallon (31:53)
Or until they're an adult, there are adults,
there are adults who have noise on that, you know, so it blocks out other sounds. So yeah. Yeah. There you go. My teenager, he likes to have crickets playing all night. Um, was very, very disconcerting the other night I got up in the night and I was like, Oh, there's these crickets. And I was like, no, they're actually real crickets this time outside their house. Yeah. So you got to think about, is it serving a purpose? Is it helping something?
Dr Laura (32:00)
Yeah, me being one of them. yes, so there's, yeah.
Huh?
you
Dr Fallon (32:21)
And as always, with any noise playing during sleep, keep it under 50 decibels. So it's safe for your child.
Dr Laura (32:28)
And if your baby falls asleep
with the noise playing, keep it going the whole time. It becomes a sleep association. It's not going to actually cause any night wakings. It will cause, it may cause a night waking or lead to more night waking if you play it as your baby or toddler is falling asleep and then you stop it once they're asleep because then when they come up into light sleep later, they're going to go, huh, hang on a second. What? Where's the sound gone? Yeah.
Dr Fallon (32:33)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yep. Very good.
Dr Laura (32:55)
All right,
we have a question from Jeanette. So this is a follow up question, I think, from Jeanette. So her baby is five months old and she's currently traveling overseas, has crossed seven time zones with her baby. That's a bit full on, you're going all right, Jeanette. And Jeanette says, our baby is tired enough to fall asleep at the start of the night now, but she then wakes up every 30 to 60 minutes.
Dr Fallon (33:15)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (33:25)
from around eight until midnight. Jeanette says that she feels that her baby does best when she gets 12 and a half hours total sleep per 24 hours. During the day sometimes her baby does cat naps but sometimes Jeanette says I wake her up after an hour and a half nap. She does bedtime at eight, wake up at seven overnight and Jeanette says that gives her 30 minutes extra sleep.
that she doesn't feel that her baby needs, but she's absolutely refusing to go to sleep any later than eight o'clock. Jeanette says, believe her sleep environment to be good. Her last wake window of the day is two and a half hours long. When we were at home, prior to bedtime might be three hours or more and she didn't act tired. But since traveling, she's typically only doing two or two and a half hours awake, maybe three.
Dr Fallon (33:59)
You
Dr Laura (34:22)
before the nighttime sleep. Jeanette adds that she's hitting milestones and her weight gain was good the last checkup we had. So I guess Jeanette's questions are around those frequent wakeups before midnight Fallon. What do you suggest?
Dr Fallon (34:32)
Mmm.
Yeah,
the first thing I think is that she hasn't adapted to the new time zone entirely. So previously she could do more than three hours awake before bed, which is probably what would recommend it about that age. And now she's struggling. I keep really pushing it. Lots of distractions, lots of busyness. I know it's really hard to keep your baby awake longer, but it's worked in the past and she can do it.
Dr Laura (34:49)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (35:00)
Just keep gently nudging towards that. You know, she she's changed time zone, so it's going to take a bit of time for that to come together. Often it takes, you know, a week or so. I would be really thinking about that daily rhythm. Often parents will say something like, you know, my baby seems to do better when they get 12 and a half hours of sleep. But if your baby's varying between, I don't know, maybe 12 and a half hours sleep maximum some days to 10 and a half on other days, and they keep swaying between the two.
Dr Laura (35:07)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (35:29)
The magic middle ground is probably where their sleep needs actually lie. Maybe it's 11 or 11 and a half hours. I mean, I don't know. I haven't seen a sleep diary for this baby. course, when we start to just offer that amount, that average amount, mood tends to start to pick up. They start to really well with that and you'll start to get good mood every day. So just be mindful that the daily sleep needs, it's definitely not a wishlist type item. Look at that average and be guided by that.
Dr Laura (35:33)
Hmm. Hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (35:57)
because it definitely sounds like with all of these sort of false starts, lots of night waking, sounds really tough, Jeanette. Given that's happening at the beginning of the night, there is a bit of a sleep pressure problem. Something's not quite right here. And it probably just is that time before bed needs to be stretched out a bit. So check that average, make sure you're allowing that opportunity per day and there's not too much kind of drift in that daily rhythm.
Dr Laura (36:04)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:21)
The other big thing I'd be thinking about given her age is, she self settling in her cot now? This is the prime age for babies who previously were sleeping okay, maybe being rocked or fed to sleep or having some other assistance. They might've been sleeping fine overnight having that assistance. And then they hit the four or five month mark, sometimes as late as six months. And they suddenly go, right, well now every time I come up into light sleep overnight could be every 45 minutes.
Dr Laura (36:47)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:48)
I'm going to absolutely let my parents know about it if I'm not still in their arms or still being fed. So they start to wait constantly wanting that same support to get back to sleep. So I know in Jeanette's past email, she was doing some work on cot settling, I think. So my big question would be, how's that going? Cause it might be time to do a really big push with the cot settling if she's waking constantly because what could be a bit of low sleep pressure, but it could also be that she's just thinking, where did you go? How did I end up in my cot?
Dr Laura (36:52)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (37:17)
Yeah, so working on a bit of cot settling now could be really, really effective. It's always going to be that combination of having the sleep pressure addressed and really having a good daily rhythm that suits the child alongside working on the cot settling for so many babies. That's just the magic combination. If we don't work on them both together, it never quite sticks and it doesn't quite come together. But yeah, I mean, there's...
Dr Laura (37:33)
Hmm. Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (37:44)
probably lots of different ways to answer this question, Laura. Is there anything you'd add or anything you'd do differently?
Dr Laura (37:47)
Yeah.
No, just simply to remind Jeanette and listeners that when we do look at changing something about our baby's or toddler's daily rhythm, can take around about a week for our baby to adjust. And they can seem a little bit cranky at first, but it's always worth persisting. For Jeanette's baby, we add in crossing seven time zones. you know, there was...
Dr Fallon (37:51)
Ahem.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (38:19)
maybe a week or so where she was able to work on the timing to some degree, then they've gone overseas. So that would bring in jet lag. So that can set things back. And look, life happens, we have to do these things. And, you know, we can't always control when we have to go overseas, or go away or sleep somewhere different.
So whenever there is some kind of disruption like that, then we just have to add in a little bit more allowance for our little one, the circadian rhythm system, just to get back on track. yeah, Jeanette, think just reassessing that daily sleep need to ensure that it's the average that you're working towards rather than the highest amount that your baby is getting per 24 hours.
seeing if you can reduce that variability in the daytime naps in particular. know, some days she's only having cat naps and other days she's having those longer naps. Then that will also be impacting the saddle at the start of the night and how well your little one is coping in that lead up to bedtime. So, hang in there. I'm not sure how long it is that you're away for, Jeanette, before you get home again.
Dr Fallon (39:30)
you
Dr Laura (39:39)
So some parents might just say, I'm just going to wait until I'm back home if it's only another few days. But of course, if you're overseas now for a while and you can have a good run up to getting back on track, then yeah, just stick with it and let us know how you get on.
Dr Fallon (39:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And I'll just add to that, you know, keep in mind, you'll see this in our daily rhythm charts. You might start to work towards a daily rhythm that you think, gosh, I don't know. Is this enough sleep? I'm not really sure. Give it a try because you'll see in those steps, it always says, you know, things are going well. You feel like you've got this buildup in sleep pressure and you're working on cot settling maybe. Things are going well. Trial adding some more sleep back in. So the schedule you come up with, it's not forever.
You might use it and then go, actually it's been a week and they seem a little bit tired. I'm going to add 30 minutes more to that schedule, but do that for a full week and let them adjust and see if they can handle it. So many parents will say, Oh no, there was one day I tried to have them awake longer, or I tried dropping a nap or I tried this and the night was just as terrible. And I'll say, yeah, but you've got to do it for a week to really know the impact of that. Um, so yeah, just, just keep that in mind. It's a starting point. You can change it.
Dr Laura (40:22)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (40:50)
but just aim to do a week at a time.
Dr Laura (40:53)
Yeah, good. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can do.
Dr Fallon (40:54)
Good. Is it my turn to read out the question? I can't remember. It is. right.
Cool. So our last one is from Erin. So Erin says, we've been following a feed play sleep patterns since about three months of age. Baby is now seven months old and Erin has two questions about this rhythm. We'll read them both out, I think, and then answer them together because they're sort of related. So the first one is what happens when the baby has a short nap?
Erin says, my nurse has encouraged me to stretch out my baby's feeds to four hours. I'm finding that he can tolerate being awake about two to two and a half hours, but sometimes only one and a half to two hours. But he'll only sleep for 30 or 40 minutes maximum, sometimes only 20 minutes, meaning that she's still feeding him every three hours. So she's wondering how she manages that. She also asks, how do we manage this when he protests and that.
Dr Laura (41:41)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (41:51)
So Erin says, our baby struggles to go down for naps sometimes. Sometimes he'll resist the nap despite best efforts of settling and resettling. It then gets close to an hour of trying. And so he is then getting hungry. If I feed him, I feel like I've given up on the consistency and he often will then fall asleep on the boob. How do I manage this? When he has wakes after he's, when, when he wakes after his nap, do I offer a feed again, even though he would only have fed maybe 40 minutes prior.
It's so confusing some of these daily rhythms and different advice being received, but what do you think Laura? What would you start with?
Dr Laura (42:24)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Erin, it does sound like you're just probably doing maths all day long in your head, where you're working out when was the feed? are solids? When's the sleep? And constantly you've got like, I'm thinking of one of those Instagram reels where it shows all the calculations on a blackboard behind you constantly. Sin cos and tan. So what I would say is that the feed, play, sleep, repeat.
Dr Fallon (42:34)
Yeah, it's not fun.
yeah.
Yes.
Dr Laura (42:56)
rhythm, really good guide for how to progress throughout the day and then before bed adding in one extra feed before bed. But it is just that it is just a guide. So our babies aren't robots and there will be some times where the schedule goes a little bit wobbly and you do need to give them an extra feed during their awake time. It's not the end of the world. When we're thinking about
Dr Fallon (43:24)
you
Dr Laura (43:25)
sleep and feeds, the only thing we're ever thinking about is in terms of whether it's going to the feeds are going to impact the sleep is, is your baby at this age feeding to sleep? And is that leading to more frequent wake ups because they're waking up and they're not feeding anymore. So we just want to try and keep the feed away from the sleep just so that we don't bring in that association for some babies.
so try if you can to kind of take a deep breath and just know that it is just a guide. and don't feel that you have to stick really rigidly to a three hour or four hour feed in the same way that ideally we're not looking at really rigid awake times as well with those wake windows, which was spoken about before. you sounded like you wanted to add something there, Fallon.
Dr Fallon (44:04)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I was just
thinking, you know, feed, play, sleep, repeat. It's really tough if your baby is a catnapper for exactly the reason that Erin describes. Like often other babies that age who have longer naps are stretching out their feeds a lot more. But if you've got a catnapper, it just kind of, it just takes longer to happen. And I wouldn't be too worried if the feeds are a little closer together for now.
Dr Laura (44:40)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (44:43)
your baby might start to have longer naps next week. And suddenly you'll be like, wow, it's really easy to do four hours. So yeah, it could just be, you know, individual variants between babies.
Dr Laura (44:49)
Mmm.
Yeah. And I think also what is probably happening is that your baby is seven months old. and they are sometimes only, managing really short, times before you're attempting to settle them back down. So sometimes it's only an hour and a half. Sometimes it's two and a half hours. and then you'll, you describe that, your baby can be struggling to have those naps.
And you're doing everything you can to settle your baby. You said that you're just, despite all your best efforts, and it's then like an hour of trying to settle them to sleep. So I reckon have a little bit of confidence that your seven month old can actually stay awake longer than an hour and a half, particularly as the day goes on. And don't worry about stretching your
keeping your little one awake longer. If you're going to put them down after an hour and a half, and then it's taking them an hour or longer to fall asleep, they are actually awake for two and a half or three hours. So try to keep them up longer, distract them, lots of eye contact and singing games and games on your lap and taking them outside into nature, just to try and stretch those.
Dr Fallon (45:59)
Hmm
Yeah.
Dr Laura (46:19)
stretch the awake times a little bit beyond such short awake periods.
Dr Fallon (46:24)
Hmm.
I wonder if Erin is.
Um, the type of parent, and I see this a lot where there's a lot of fear that their baby will become overtired. And so they, as soon as they see a tired sign, they move really quickly to go and settle their baby. Um, it might not be the case for Erin, but I do see it quite a bit. Parents are just so sure that if they get overtired, they'll be harder to settle. They'll have a terrible night. That's only really the case when they're, you know, three months old or less. So try not to be worried about overtiredness. Um, stretching that time away might mean you start to get the longer naps.
Dr Laura (46:35)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (46:58)
happening and they're certainly at an age where they should be able to manage a little bit longer but often it just takes that little bit of a nudge over the course of a week or two to make it happen.
Dr Laura (47:06)
Yeah.
And you might then find that they do, they move beyond those short cat naps with slightly higher sleep pressure, that the naps actually end up being more than one sleep cycle. mean, the fact that sometimes Erin's baby's only managing 20 minutes and if she's spending an hour settling and then your baby's only sleeping for 20 minutes, that's so demoralizing. Really, really.
Dr Fallon (47:15)
Mmm.
Yeah.
And it's often a, yeah,
it can be a real cycle kind of where they just have a snack feed, a tiny bit of playtime, a tiny little nap, snack feed, tiny bit of, and they just keep, then tummies aren't full enough to be awake and happy for a long time. They're not getting enough of a nap to be awake and happy for a long time. So sometimes to kind of pull them out of that cycle. Yeah. We just have to give them a bit of a nudge into that pattern. So.
Dr Laura (47:38)
yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (47:53)
Yeah, good luck, Erin. Let us know how you're going. If you need a hand and same goes for any Sombelle member, coaching calls are a really good way to solve these problems. You can just get a really clear answer really quickly. We can look at the sleep diary for you and work out exactly what needs to happen. So if you are listening in and you're really second guessing yourself, put yourself out of your misery. a coaching call. We can get it all straightened out and worked out for you nice and quickly.
Dr Laura (48:06)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (48:21)
Thank you to all the parents who emailed in this week. These are such fantastic questions. If you've got a spirited baby or toddler who is having little parties in their cot, I really hope that today's episode is giving you some guidance around what to do. A huge thank you to Rebecca and Melanie who bought us coffees this past week. It's so appreciated. We love it when our listeners do this for us. It makes our day. There's a link in the show notes or you can simply go to buymeacoffee.com/infant.sleep
Dr Laura (48:30)
You
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (48:49)
and you'll find us there. Leave us a review, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. It really helps us to get out there to as many parents as possible. And we know lots of parents are looking for sensible, sound, science-backed advice. If you've been tuning in and you're not a member yet of Sombelle it's a great time to join. So go and check it out and have a bit of a think about whether it's the right fit for you.
It's a very flexible program where you really can tailor your plan to your individual child and your parenting preferences. And that's why we're super proud of it because it's taken a lot of work to create something so amazing for families. Have a great week, everyone. Thanks for listening in.
Dr Laura (49:26)
Yeah.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
