Dr Fallon (00:38)
Imagine if your toddler's bedtime often took longer than three hours.
Imagine they refuse to sleep in their cot, will only fall asleep if breastfed and every approach you've previously tried simply hasn't stuck. It sounds pretty awful, doesn't it? Well, this week we received an email from Michelle and I've just described the challenge she's currently battling with her little one. Michelle desperately wants her toddler to sleep in his cot but is worried about how much he might push back against any changes.
Michelle wants to know what approach to take.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, how are you going?
Dr Laura (01:47)
Yeah, I'm good, thank you. Really feeling sorry for Michelle with her strong-willed toddler.
Dr Fallon (01:51)
I know,
I know. we've all been there. Toddlers can really have their moments where they're just tricky, really, really tricky. And it can feel so overwhelming as a parent trying to navigate, you know, these challenging moments, especially when they are just strong-willed and know what they want and they're smart, they're assertive. You know, we love that they've got so much energy and they, you know, so determined.
Dr Laura (01:59)
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:21)
but it can make bedtime so hard, can't it?
Dr Laura (02:23)
Yeah, and it sometimes can almost appear to come out of nowhere. Like one moment you just you had a big baby, and the next minute, the baby years are behind you. And there's a really, really strong will toddler in their place. And you're just you get whiplash because the development is so quick. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:27)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes
parents will say to me, should I work on sleep now? Like, you know, they're talking about their baby. or is it easy to do it when they're a bit older? I'm just like, no, it's easy to do it before they can walk and yell and explain things to you and ask lots of questions and demand extra things. Definitely a little bit easier to do it when they're still in babyhood. But,
Dr Laura (02:58)
Yes
Yes.
Dr Fallon (03:08)
But yeah, let's maybe unpack Michelle's question a bit more. And then we'll really dive into what to do when we kind of picked out Michelle's question this week, because it's just so common. know, Michelle's certainly not alone in this struggle and certainly not alone in feeling really overwhelmed. I think for a lot of parents, we have moments where we feel like our toddlers are stronger than we are. And we wonder how on earth, you know, we can get things on track. So.
Dr Laura (03:13)
Mmm.
No.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (03:35)
Michelle, just know that you're going to get through this and any other parents also listening. They do, they do grow. They can move past these things. Sleep can get back on track again. Yeah.
Dr Laura (03:38)
Yeah.
Yeah. So Michelle's
toddler is 18 months old and she describes him as being really smart, really active and crucially really persistent. So if he wants something, then he, you know, he sets his eye on it and he will persist and persist. And that's really hard as a parent when you're really sleep deprived because you know that you need to be consistent in your response and it's really hard to do.
Dr Fallon (03:58)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (04:15)
when you are tired.
Dr Fallon (04:16)
Yeah, your reserves are low already.
So where do you find that extra strength? Yeah, what really interested me was, and I know you and I say this all the time in the sleep clinic, but Michelle says they've been to sleep school three times and each time helped to some degree, but that progress didn't last. It does give me a few clues about what could be going on, which we'll unpack.
Dr Laura (04:21)
Hmm.
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (04:41)
Michelle also says he can cry a lot at bedtime and that you know, feels really overwhelming and pretty hard to persist through. But I thought there was a really lovely positive in there as well. And so often parents tell me this and they don't realize just how good it is when I, you know, when I hear this. She says he occasionally will settle in his cot with parental presence, but mostly he co-sleeps and breastfeeds to sleep.
Dr Laura (04:48)
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (05:05)
So often parents are really quick to pass over that, sometimes they fall asleep in their cot. They really focus on all the times when they don't. But I often say to parents, know, if they can do it sometimes, that is a really good thing. It's not such a foreign thing for them to do. They do know how to do it. We're just gonna look at what's stopping them from doing it bit more often.
Dr Laura (05:12)
Mm.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Fallon (05:26)
Hmm. and he hates his sleeping bag, but Michelle also noted that he's going to need to wear it in winter, his sleep sack or sleeping bag, because it will be cold. And we know that children are pretty terrible at replacing their own blankets until, I don't know, I reckon they've got to be almost five years old before they really start to figure out how to do it themselves, you know, for a lot of them anyway. so sleeping bags or a sleeping sack is a really good way to just keep them warm and.
Dr Laura (05:34)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (05:56)
and not have their nights too interrupted. So that's a bit of a sort of overview of what's going on for Michelle. Laura, what are the first sort of things that jump out to you? What's the first thing you'd start with?
Dr Laura (05:58)
Mmm.
Well, as soon as I hear from a parent that a settle at bedtime is pushing out to such extraordinary lengths, so three hours in Michelle's toddler's case, that immediately tells me that there's a mismatch between bedtime and when the toddler is actually ready to go to sleep. For a child who is really tired to be able to resist going to sleep for three hours, that's quite unusual.
Dr Fallon (06:17)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (06:36)
So more likely is that bedtime might not quite match when Michelle's toddler is tired enough. So then we're thinking really about sleep pressure issue. And once we look at making bedtime more match, the time that he's actually ready to go to sleep, we should find that he settles much more quickly at bedtime.
Dr Fallon (06:37)
Mmm.
Hmm,
yeah and I see parents sort of describing this quite a lot like they seem so tired though like I'm not putting them down for bed because they're wide awake and perfectly happy and I don't know if Michelle would say the same thing but a lot of parents will describe that you know it's well 7 p.m. for example they seem really tired and like they need to go to sleep but they're falling asleep at 10 p.m. and what I often describe to parents is sometimes our toddlers are
Dr Laura (07:12)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (07:25)
physically very tired, they've had a really big day and could have been running around, you know, running laps of you all day. It doesn't mean that their circadian rhythm thinks that bedtime is 7pm. So I often sort of think about that. Like if you put them to bed at 7 and they're often falling asleep at 10pm, their circadian rhythm is probably truly ready for sleep at 10pm. So their circadian rhythm obviously is running very late and we wouldn't want to keep a 10pm bedtime. but
Dr Laura (07:37)
Mm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (07:52)
Yeah, it's an appearance often a little bit stunned, but often what we will start with is just saying, well, if they usually fall asleep at 10, let's just start putting them to bed at 10. And then we get rid of all of that fight that goes on for three hours. They're so ready for sleep that they are going to fall asleep quickly. And you can practice all of those really good bedtime behaviors and the lovely bedtime routine, and have it result in them actually falling asleep. So they're starting to learn that bedtime isn't the time for shenanigans or getting in and out of the cot or the bed or.
Dr Laura (08:05)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (08:22)
making extra requests, they're starting to realize, you when we do the bedtime routine, it's sleep time. And I think that is just a really crucial first step, really, if you're putting them into bed and they don't have that sleep pressure there, their body's just not ready for it. It will always be a battle. And I think that's something that sleep schools don't look as far as I'm aware. I'm not aware of any that are actually really looking at.
Dr Laura (08:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:48)
unique sleep needs and then catering to that or fixing a delayed circadian rhythm. I'm not aware of any that really look at that side of things. And I would say every time a parent's come to me and said, we've even been to sleep school, but it just hasn't stuck. It's always been that there's a really big sleep pressure problem that just wasn't assessed and wasn't addressed. yeah.
Dr Laura (08:57)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
you'd start potentially, I mean, we'd want to be seeing a sleep diary and this is like general advice only. But potentially, you if we did move bedtime, let's say in this case, you're talking about Fallon, that it was 10 o'clock that the toddler's falling asleep, you'd be aiming for a much later bedtime than you're currently trying to do Michelle and more around when they're ready to fall asleep and then just shuffling it earlier. So
Dr Fallon (09:17)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (09:38)
it's not that you're going to be stuck with the 10pm bedtime, it's not forever. Yeah, something else that, well, you've already said, Fallon, that a really good piece of information in that email from Michelle was that her toddler can settle in his cot sometimes. And so I think Michelle just really gets some confidence from that because
Dr Fallon (09:41)
Yeah, it's not forever. I promise it's not forever. Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (10:07)
when you do start to settle your toddler when he's actually more likely to fall asleep, he's much more likely to be able to use that skill that he has demonstrated on occasion more consistently. And so then you're going to find that the bedtime with a higher sleep pressure, bedtime is much easier, and you'll then become more hopeful each night that feeling of dread that you might have will start to
Dr Fallon (10:17)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (10:32)
disappear at bedtime, he also will start to feel a bit better about bedtime because it's not taking him so long to fall asleep and everyone starts to feel a little bit more hopeful.
Dr Fallon (10:33)
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely.
And those times when he did manage to fall asleep in the cot, I would put money on him for whatever reason, it could be a culmination of what's happened over the last week, but that particular bedtime, he probably did have high enough sleep pressure and that's why he did it. So yeah, imagine if we get that sleep pressure where it needs to be every single day, a lot of parents are stunned and will come back for their follow-up appointment saying, my gosh, you were right. When we actually started addressing the sleep pressure.
Dr Laura (10:57)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (11:10)
It was nowhere near the battle that we thought it would be because, they're truly tired and ready for sleep. So I would generally say to families like this where you're feeling very worried about making these changes and how hard it might be, just work on that daily rhythm for a week. So in Michelle's case, work through that unique sleep needs chapter, figure out what his sleep need is, come up with a daily rhythm that fits it.
Dr Laura (11:17)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (11:35)
And then just settle into working on that for a week and don't change anything about the settling initially, because it's enough hard work just getting the timing in place. Then after a week, you know that sleep pressure is going to be much higher. Then when you go, okay, we're going to only fall asleep in the cot now. So it doesn't matter if you take a gradual approach or a really fast approach. If their sleep pressure is high enough, when you make that change and you always settle them the same way in their cot and they pick up on that predictability.
Dr Laura (11:40)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (12:04)
You will have progress. And if you continue with that daily rhythm, keeping sleep pressure high enough, it will be lasting progress. You will be able to keep it on track. And that's what didn't happen in the past. So this is what I absolutely love about Sombelle. And I'm so proud of is that we help parents to figure out all pieces of the puzzle so that you're actually going to get that maintained progress.
Dr Laura (12:06)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. And Michelle, you can be thinking about bringing in some additional tools that we cover in Sombel, such as a bedtime routine chart for your toddler. mean, 18 months, he might be a little bit too young for that. So but for other people who have older toddlers who are listening, if you're trying to turn bedtime around into a more positive experience and think about checking out the the chapter on bedtime battles and thinking about
giving your older toddler a bit of agency over bedtime with the bedtime routine chat, and also thinking about some calming games. So if you do have a toddler who is finding it hard to calm down at bedtime, check out the chapter on the calming games at bedtime that can help trigger a calming response in your little one's body and can help them then get into the zone where they're more likely to fall asleep.
Dr Fallon (13:01)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Yeah. And then when it comes to like, those are great strategies. If Michelle was thinking, but which of the approaches should I use at that point of, of settling in the cot? I think, you know, definitely last week's episode, me, where we talked about. Cot shenanigans can be really helpful for some toddlers. If they, even with high sleep pressure, they are just up and down like a Jack in the box and refusing to lie still. I would in that case, lean towards the advanced accelerated approach. So.
Dr Laura (13:39)
Yes. Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (13:53)
you're still present and you still give plenty of reassurance, but you're not constantly, you know, right up in their face because often those toddlers do better when we just take a little step back and give them a little bit of room. But if that doesn't feel manageable, absolutely something like the advanced, the advanced quick fade approach could be a good idea. If he's really responsive to constant touch, that can work really well. But once that sleep pressure piece is sorted,
Dr Laura (14:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (14:20)
it sort of wouldn't matter which of those approaches you go with if you're super consistent and just keep going with it. It's really likely you'll have some really good progress within a few days or so.
Dr Laura (14:30)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (14:31)
So just remember that he is capable. We're not asking him to do something extraordinarily difficult. a cot is a really safe place. He knows that he's safe in his cot. And if you're using an approach where you're giving lots of reassurance and you're still hanging around, he's not going to be frightened or scared or worried because he can see that you're there and you're reassuring him, but he is going to be mad as hell. He's going to be like,
Dr Laura (14:53)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (14:56)
What are you playing at mum or dad or
another caregiver? He's just, you know, he has every right to be outraged because he doesn't know any different to how you have been settling him. So don't expect him to just be all happy with it. There is no magical approach that's going to make this toddler go wonderful. Let's go to sleep in the cot. He will be cranky about it, but it's perfectly okay to persist. It's important for your wellbeing and your sleep quality.
Dr Laura (15:07)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (15:24)
And it's important for his wellbeing and his sleep quality as well. So you've got every reason to work on this. And once he makes that transition and he's feeling good in his cot, you will not know yourself. It will be so much easier at bedtime. You'll get much more peaceful nights as well. And I think Michelle deserves that after the tricky road that she's been traveling.
Dr Laura (15:45)
Yeah, absolutely. So let us know how you got on Michelle. know, three trips to sleep school, really struggling with those really long battles at bedtime would be taking its toll. So good luck. You can do it. So can he. Send us an update so we know how you're getting on. And yeah, we wish you all the best.
Dr Fallon (15:50)
Mmm.
Mm.
Yeah
And Michelle's probably a really good candidate for a coaching call. So if you do want to have a chat through things, we can always come up with a, a really clear plan, you know, together, moving forward, especially with the sleep diary stuff. If you need a hand with that, that's what we're here for. Awesome. We've got so many questions this week, Laura. We are like, come on, you've got to crack your knuckles and like do some stretches. Cause we've got quite, are there 14 or something? It's a lot, but we're just going to power through.
Dr Laura (16:17)
Mmm.
Yeah. Okay. so many.
Yeah
Yeah, there's a lot. we're going to power through.
because we've had so many, we have had to really edit them to ensure that we can answer everybody's questions. So if you have sent in really, really long questions, just be aware that when we read them out now, they're going to be condensed.
Dr Fallon (16:54)
Mm.
Dr Laura (16:55)
If you feel that we've missed some elements that were important to you in the long email that you sent through, it's highly likely you need a coaching call. So listen to our response now. If you feel like you need a little bit more help, then get online, book yourself a coaching call, and then we can discuss in much more detail your particular case.
Dr Fallon (17:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, such a good idea, Laura. Well, let's start with Katie. So Katie is the parent of a three month old unicorn baby. We love a unicorn baby. No, we don't. They're a rare breed indeed in our field. So Katie says she's preparing for the four to 12 month program, but is worried about the four month sleep regression. Their baby currently sleeps well, self settles and naps independently.
Dr Laura (17:25)
Yeah, we don't see many of them.
Dr Fallon (17:45)
She has catnaps throughout the day. But Katie's concern things might change. So is there a way she can best prepare for the four month regression? Is it usually as bad as what people say?
Dr Laura (17:58)
Katie, it sounds like things are going really well for you. Your baby already can settle independently in their cot or bassinet, is sleeping well during the night and during the day. So I think you're doing everything that you can possibly do right now. Sometimes the reason we see things falling over at four months of age is just when a baby has yet to develop those abilities to go to sleep without lots of hands-on support. things can fall over at four months just because of changes in.
Dr Fallon (18:13)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (18:28)
development at that point. But the fact that your baby can already settle independently is just telling me that your baby's got really good sleep foundations. So I would just park that worry, there's going to be plenty of things to worry about as a mum, as a parent, and let's not worry about things that won't necessarily happen.
Dr Fallon (18:31)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Yeah.
Yeah, I've been saying to parents, it's like at that four or five month mark, your baby is going to pick their favorite way of falling asleep and only want to fall asleep like that. So if most of the time they're falling asleep in their cot, that's probably going to become their preference. So yeah, you're kind of, yeah, you've set awesome foundations, Katie, already well done. That's great.
Dr Laura (19:01)
Mmm.
We have an email from Tamara who has a six month old who's struggling with daytime cut naps after returning from a holiday. Their baby who previously settled easily now resists settling and does what they call a gymnastics floor routine, rolling around trying to crawl and resisting being patted or soothed for 15 or 20 minutes or sometimes even longer. Whilst nighttime sleep and on the go naps are fine,
Dr Fallon (19:25)
Love it.
Dr Laura (19:37)
Cot naps have become tricky with more crying and more difficulty with settling. So they're unsure whether they need to adjust wake windows, whether they need to stop patting to sleep for the naps and just use shushing, or whether they should be using a particular cot settling technique for all of the sleeps to reduce confusion. So any advice would be appreciated.
Dr Fallon (20:02)
Yeah,
yeah, look, it's so common for sleep needs to drop off at around that age. And if, you know, they used to settle really well, and now it's taking ages, it really makes me think, you know, they just need to be awake longer before they're truly ready to drop off to sleep. I'd definitely look at that daily rhythm. Have a look at what the sleep needs are like now over the past seven days. Work out your daily rhythm around that.
Dr Laura (20:23)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (20:26)
I mean, you'll probably see some good improvements. It might be that they're ready to drop a nap if they're on, you know, three or four, for example, it might be time to drop down and definitely reduce that confusion. I would just have one way of settling and stick with it. If you've been patting during naps, yeah, I'd probably aim to just phase it out. So your baby's getting used to drifting off to sleep without you there. They're more likely to settle quicker and less likely to wait constantly. Yeah. Is there anything you'd add to that one, Laura?
Dr Laura (20:34)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah,
I would say since they're doing their gymnastics floor routine, it's probably going to be getting harder for you to pat them as well, because they'll be rolling all over the place. So and sometimes babies are rolling all over the place because they want you to stop patting them. Because they want to just kind of be left alone a little bit. So
Dr Fallon (20:59)
You
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. The rolling
around is them trying like, it's sort of almost like the repetitive rocking that a lot of babies like to do with their head backwards and forwards. They find it really soothing. So you're right. Yeah. Take that hand away. You might actually be really surprised and they could settle faster.
Dr Laura (21:22)
Mmm.
Yeah, and just use the shushing that they're used to. And then you can start wondering out of the room tomorrow and know, shushing more quietly, wean them off that. So yeah, so good luck. So it's a little bit of all of the things that you suggested in your, in your, you answered your own question tomorrow. thinking about dropping an app if necessary and weaning off the patting and do the same settling at each, each sleep time. So good luck.
Dr Fallon (21:35)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
all right, let's power through. So we've got Brittany who emailed in, she's a parent who had great success with the four to 12 month program. She's wondering if the toddler program offers additional strategies, sure does, as they're nearly 18 month old or 15 months corrected, has regressed since Christmas, while sleep has improved slightly. So one or two wakings at the moment, sometimes sleeping through, but waking very early.
Dr Laura (21:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:22)
Brittany says their daughter now screams if left us, I'll settle in her cot, which she previously did easily. So they're hoping the toddler program can help get sleep back on track and they wonder if we have any other advice.
Dr Laura (22:29)
Mm.
Yeah. So Brittany, definitely the toddler program has some additional strategies that are applicable to the toddlers who are at a different developmental stage than the babies. And it will help you look at what the reasons might be for why the bedtime battles are rearing their head and give you some tips, you know, perhaps to
Dr Fallon (22:48)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (23:05)
Again, like with the baby program, looking of course to see if the daily rhythm is correct, whether you might need to reduce the length of time that she's napping for during the day or changing bedtime or wake up. And just giving you some tips that are specific to toddlers as well. So yeah, would definitely be thinking about joining the toddler program.
Dr Fallon (23:23)
Hmm.
Yeah. And I think it 15 months corrected. Um, if your baby hasn't dropped to a toddler, hasn't dropped to one day nap. I just think it's so common. it? The parents go, my toddler is 14 months or 15 or 16 months and nights have suddenly gotten tricky. I go, Oh, how many naps to, Oh, one's got to go. So if that is what Brittany's experiencing, you know, if their child's still on two naps, I'd definitely be thinking about moving to one and it's likely to really, really help. Um, good.
Dr Laura (23:36)
Mmm.
Yes.
Good.
Okay. And we have some questions from Gillian. So Gillian has a five month old and is currently on step two of the slow fade approach. And she's got two questions about managing sleep during illness. So their son usually sleeps for 12 hours overnight and has two hours worth of day naps during the day, has been sick with gastro and a cold. gosh.
poor thing. That's terrible to have both of those things, Jillian. my goodness. And so whilst he's been sick, he's been having longer naps, sometimes up to four and a half hours of day sleep, and then subsequently has had more frequent night wakes up to five times a night. And because he's been sick, Jillian's been offering him extra feeds. So Jillian is wondering how to balance daytime sleep for recovery.
Dr Fallon (24:27)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (24:52)
whilst ensuring that it doesn't disrupt nighttime sleep because she has found that too much daytime sleep usually leads to poorer nights. And she also asks whether to stick to the usual two night feeds during illness or whether to continue being flexible with offering extra feeds until he recovers and without doing that without creating long-term expectations.
She does have a final question, which I'll just read out and then we'll just go back through them all. She says, is five months too young to transition from three to two naps if their baby is showing signs of readiness, or should they wait until he's closer to six months old?
Dr Fallon (25:23)
Hmm.
Okay, so there's a little bit to unpack here. So first starting with the total day sleep. Of course we all need a bit more sleep when we're not feeling well. Four and a half hours is a lot, though it's a lot of day sleep. So I'm not surprised to hear that nights were a bit tricky. I don't think there's, I can't give you a magical formula on exactly how much day sleep you should offer when your child is sick, but
Dr Laura (25:39)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (26:02)
I kind of feel like offer more, but maybe not twice as much as what they would normally have. So it might be that you'll allow them to nap a little bit longer for each of the naps, but I'll be trying not to add sort of more than two hours or so to their day.
Dr Laura (26:07)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (26:18)
But you know, obviously it depends on how unwell your child is and there's so many variables to consider here. And some parents won't worry too much, but they just try and make sure that last period of awake time before bed is still as long as what it usually is. Just so they're building up that, that sleep drive before sleep. But yeah, sometimes it just goes out the window and when they're better, you just have to get them back on track with their daily rhythm. And that's all you can do. Whether to stick to the usual two night feeds during illness. This is a five month old baby.
Dr Laura (26:20)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (26:47)
I would probably be a little bit flexible for older babies. tend to say, especially if they've dropped all night feeds, I would tend to say don't add extra night feeds when they're sick, unless you're worried about hydration and you know, they're not going to take water. but for a five month old, I wouldn't be too worried. I mean, if they usually has two feeds and offering a third one's not going to, you know, change much, offering six or seven feeds per night, all of a sudden my
Dr Laura (27:02)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (27:15)
be probably unnecessary and not needed. That could be hard to kind of come back from. You might have to spend some time really working on reducing those once he's better. So anyway, short answer would be just be a little bit flexible with the night feeds given his age. Is five months too young to transition from three naps to two naps if they're showing signs of readiness? It is a little on the young side. I'd probably try and trim down the length of those day naps before I would drop one and just see if that means he stays on three naps for a little bit longer.
Dr Laura (27:17)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (27:45)
Is there anything you'd add to that one?
Dr Laura (27:47)
No, I don't think so. I think that Gillian has been coping with a really tricky time. And when you're right in the midst of sickness, you just need to ensure that your child is getting all of the rest and all the hydration that they need. And just know that once he's better, you'll be able to get back on track. So if things often do fall over, particularly if it's something awful, like horrible, like gastro.
Dr Fallon (28:01)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (28:14)
and sleep can fall over. And yeah, once the peak of the sickness has passed, then start to think more about, how am going to get things back on track? But you're juggling so much as a mum with a sick child. So don't be adding more guilt on top of what you're already dealing with.
Dr Fallon (28:28)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (28:40)
you know, you will get back on track five months old. Yeah, five months old, he's still going to be building his sleep pressure quite quickly during the day, which is probably, yeah, that because children, younger babies build sleep pressure more quickly, that's why they need more naps during the day. And so even if he's showing the signs that he could go down to two naps, you'll probably find he just struggles and becomes a bit miserable because his sleep pressure, he's just not yet at the point that he could actually tolerate it.
Dr Fallon (29:04)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (29:09)
He'll probably be one of the earlier droppers down to two naps so much more around the six month rather than seven or eight. But yeah, just hang on to the three for the moment.
Dr Fallon (29:20)
Hmm,
good advice. All right, we also have Helen, who's the parent of a 14 month old and is trialling a transition to one nap. Good, good thinking, Helen. Just what I was saying a moment ago. So Helen says, while their baby copes well with one, sorry, with the longer wake windows, so happy during the day, they're seeing frequent wake ups four or five times before midnight on the one nap days, often ending with feeding to sleep when nothing else is working.
Dr Laura (29:29)
Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (29:50)
After midnight he sleeps through until 7am. Previously on two naps, and those naps were an hour 20 and about 40 minutes, she says bedtime was around 8pm, sometimes slipping to 8.30 or 8.45pm. Now on one nap of, what is that, that's two hours, one nap of two hours duration, bedtime is at 7pm. So they're wondering if the early night wakes are due to overtiredness if their baby isn't ready for one nap.
Dr Laura (30:10)
hours.
Dr Fallon (30:19)
or if they should be pushing through.
Dr Laura (30:21)
Okay. So it's very unlikely that those wakes are due to overtiredness. I think you're riding a little bit of a roller coaster where your toddler is sometimes not sleeping very well, waking frequently before midnight. Then on subsequent days, then they are really, really tired, feeling like they need more naps, you know, going back to two naps.
And then seems to be sleeping well overnight. And then in a sense, they almost oversleep. then on the next subsequent nights, the nights are more wakeful again. And so it's just going up, down, up, down, up, down. I suspect that there's some fluctuation creeping in day to day. it's your toddler's body is finding it hard to just settle. So I would be thinking without just doing the...
maths off the top of my head, which has never been one of my strong points. I'm wondering whether actually that bedtime needs to be a little bit later, because it sounds like when they were on two naps, they were still having about two hours total. Now they're on one nap for two hours, but you've moved bedtime a whole hour earlier. So I think actually you don't need to move bedtime earlier, because the nap is the similar total sleep duration as it was before.
Dr Fallon (31:29)
you
Mm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:48)
Have
I worked out the maths correctly there, Fallon? Yeah, because it was an hour. Yeah. So, yeah.
Dr Fallon (31:51)
Yes, you have. I'm just looking over the notes as well. Yeah,
I agree with you. I think that waking up a lot early on in the night is usually due to sleep pressure not quite being there yet. So you might find even just trialing a 30 minute later bedtime, you might find they settle down and they're good. But yeah, I agree with you, Laura, that swaying from two naps to one nap bit of back and forth is just going to mean the circadian rhythm has no expected set point when sleep starts at night. And that can really wobble around.
Dr Laura (32:03)
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (32:20)
and
cause the exact difficulties described. So I would, I would go for a full week, one nap, tinker with that bedtime a bit later. And look, it's very unlikely that they're not ready for it at 14 months of age. But I suppose if it's just not working, go back to two naps and see if it's better. Cause that's what I often say to families. They go back and try two naps and then go, hang on. That actually wasn't the problem. Nights are still really, really tricky at the beginning. Yeah. So might be a little bit of experimenting needed there.
Dr Laura (32:23)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
I think actually Helen's describing when he was on two naps, sometimes bedtime is creeping close to nine, you 8.45 PM. So you probably just want to have a double check of what your 40 months old average sleep duration is as well. Cause there's a good chance that even though before on two naps, bedtime was eight, if he wasn't going to sleep sometimes until closer to nine, that you may need to do a little bit of tweaking around expectations.
Dr Fallon (32:56)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:19)
for bedtime and wake up. Okay, good. Where are we up to? Are we up to me or you? Okay. Okay. So, okay. So Sophie has a really little one. She's got a nine week old who's happy and the baby's nighttime sleep.
Dr Fallon (33:21)
Mmm.
We're, yep, your turn and we're up to Sophie. And I've just realized we need to get our skates on. All right, let's go, let's go. We've got it.
Dr Laura (33:45)
it's looking quite good five or six hours at the start of the night and then has some shorter blocks, in the second half of the night. and so the problem that Sophie, the question Sophie has regards the daytime naps. So their 9 week old baby has four naps a day, usually 30 minutes each, with one longer nap, which is between two and a half and three hours. after significant resettling efforts.
So waking four to five times before having some deep sleep. So Sophia is wondering if this pattern is okay for his age or if they should aim for longer naps spread evenly throughout the day instead of just that one very long nap. So having, it sounds like then three short naps or maybe four short naps and then one much longer one later on in the day.
Dr Fallon (34:41)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (34:41)
And she also notes that their baby gets upset in the evenings if the nap timing is off. So do we have any advice for Sophie with this very little baby?
Dr Fallon (34:53)
Yeah. So at that age, I would expect lots of crankiness in the evening. So don't be alarmed and thinking, we didn't get the naps right. And it's caused this crankiness. You're usually going to get crankiness anyway. And often that's happening a lot at this age. So just don't worry too much. if that happens, given it's taking a lot of resettling to get your baby into deep sleep, it makes me think they're being settled a little bit too early, maybe for that longer nap.
Dr Laura (34:58)
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (35:21)
Look, I would say if you're happy with what's happening overnight and you can manage the day naps how they are, like it's working for you, you're okay with it, you don't have to change anything. I wouldn't say that you have to try and have, you know, four naps, all of the same length split across the day. There are lots of babies that will have a couple of cat naps, a longer nap, maybe another cat nap again. But I wouldn't be trying to get a really, really, really long nap in there on.
purpose. If your baby does seem wakeful and like they don't really want it, it would be totally fine to just have a bunch of cat naps on any given day. A lot of parents really worry about giving their baby one big longer nap, like it's some crucial thing to have good sleep quality when it's not, you some of them need it and some of them just don't. So I would just say Sophie, try not to worry too much. If you can't get that longer nap in, I'd be really looking for
Dr Laura (35:47)
Mm.
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (36:11)
collection of tired signs where you can't distract your baby, they're grisly and grumbly, you know, there's no happiness left in the tag, then go put them down and you should find that they're settling pretty quickly. Yeah, does that answer the question, Laura?
Dr Laura (36:18)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think so. think it's mainly around,
yeah, I think as you have just said, Sophie is trying to get at least one really long nap, so two and a half to three hours. But in order to get that really long nap, Sophie is needing to resettle her baby four or five times. That's a lot of hard work, Sophie. So take the pressure off if your baby only wants, if their long nap is only an hour or an hour and a half, so be it.
Dr Fallon (36:39)
Mmm. Yeah, it's a lot of hard work.
Yeah, yeah, totally fine.
Dr Laura (36:53)
So don't be thinking that they have to have a
nap that's two and a half to three hours and take the pressure off yourself needing to resettle four or five times. Right in the later afternoon as well, you'll be shattered Sophie. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (36:58)
Mmm.
Yeah and over
time babies are dropping their sleep need and we want them to reduce their day sleep and keep their great nights. We don't want to force lots of day sleep so that their nights fall apart so that's another thing to just bear in mind as well. Alexia emailed she has a five month old who sleeps 7pm to 6am with one night feed
Dr Laura (37:13)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (37:29)
and who has three to three and a half hours of daytime naps. So they've got a pretty high and impressive sleep need. But Alexia is struggling with sudden nap resistance. Their son who previously napped independently in his cot and pram now only falls asleep for naps when breastfed in her arms, despite minimal bedtime settling issues. This started after a couple of rough nights of around 15 wakeups when he was teething. Oof, that sounds tough.
Dr Laura (37:36)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (37:58)
He's staying awake much longer, so four hours instead of two and a half hours shows no tired signs and protests in the pram trying to sit up and look around. Naps are now only 25 to 30 minutes and he wakes up upset. Resettling in the cot escalates crying so they've resorted to holding him. They're unsure if this is a temporary need for comfort or an unintentional feed to sleep association emerging. With their son weighing nine kilos they're also struggling physically.
gosh, I feel like we've sort of answered this question over another few answers, haven't we, Laura?
Dr Laura (38:29)
Yeah,
I think so. Yeah. So look, I think that your five month old sleep needs are just changing. And his need for having such high number of hours across the day is, is no longer there. So in the past up to three and a half hours of daytime sleep, he's doing 11 hours overnight. I think that although it seems sudden, this change, it's just it's coinciding with a drop
Dr Fallon (38:38)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (38:59)
in his sleep needs. I think that, you know, he's mainly, we know he can go to sleep independently, he sleeps all night really well. He's resettling himself multiple times overnight. So we know he has got all of those skills. So I think that it would be a wise idea to double check what his sleep needs are.
Dr Fallon (39:02)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (39:28)
look at the suggested schedules in the unique sleep needs chapter and look for probably around three naps a day at five months old. if he's starting to have, if he has two longer ones and then that last one is just a short one, it's just like the 25 to 30 minutes, that's okay. Cause he's on his way to eventually dropping down to two naps. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (39:55)
Yeah, yeah, I
reckon his need for day sleep has declined, but importantly, his need for more learning interaction engagement has increased. And we don't want to deny babies that if they're showing that they really want to, you know, he's trying to sit up in the pram because he's like, I don't want to go to sleep. There's stuff to see. we want to totally grab hold of that and run with it because that means he's really entering that phase where he wants to learn and experience everything. That's really important as well. So.
Dr Laura (39:59)
Hmm
Yes.
Yes! Yeah, yeah!
Yes.
Dr Fallon (40:22)
Yeah, I agree with you, Laura. Some tweaks to the daily rhythm will also help protect nights, because I can almost guarantee the next step is going to be those nights falling apart if we do keep pushing for more day sleep. He's probably not going to go back to exactly how he was. But if we just come up with a daily rhythm that suits his current sleep need, things will settle down.
Dr Laura (40:35)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Okay, so Bonnie next. So Bonnie has a two and a half year old and she's wondering if they should make changes to their daughter's sleep routine. So she naps every day at lunchtime and then takes one to two hours to fall asleep at night. so Bonnie, I suspect our earlier chat.
from about Michelle's case would be useful. That's a long time to fall asleep. In Bonnie's case, her 2 and 1 year old is happily playing or talking in her cot until she dozes off. So she's not getting upset about that really long time is taking her to fall asleep. So Bonnie says, well, the nap and evening downtime from 7.30 PM onwards are a welcome break for the parents. They're unsure if maybe they should cap the nap.
Dr Fallon (41:12)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (41:35)
push bedtime later or remove the nap altogether or if it's fine to just leave things as they are whilst she's happy and settled. Any advice?
Dr Fallon (41:43)
Hmm.
Look, I would say I would be a little hesitant about having her awake and happy in the cot for that long, simply because what we know about sleep is if even as adults, if we spend a lot of time in bed when we're not sleeping, it erodes that association between getting into bed and falling asleep. So sometimes for toddlers, I'll start to just become really frustrated when you put them in the cot, because it's just, they know they're going to be there for a while on their own. It's pretty boring.
So I'd be thinking we want to probably be putting her down at a time where she can fall asleep a little bit quicker than that. Generally within 20 minutes is what we're aiming for. Should you be moving that schedule around? I would say she's taking one or two, no, how long is the day now? We don't know. Don't have that in the notes here. That's okay.
Dr Laura (42:16)
Hmm.
No, I don't know.
Dr Fallon (42:30)
I would probably start to trim the day nap, unless the day naps already only 30 to 45 minutes or around about a sleep cycle. If it is, two hours or something, I would start trimming it down to just one sleep cycle because she's getting close to that age where a lot of them are just dropping the nap altogether. But before we drop it, we'll always just try a shorter nap and see if they keep it a little longer. When you trim down that day nap, you should find she starts to get sleepier a little bit earlier in the night so that you can.
Dr Laura (42:45)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (42:56)
You know, still try and put her down at roughly the time that she would be falling off to sleep. but it might be a little earlier than it is now. So you're still getting that parent time in the evenings to, you know, switch off a little bit. and it might be that soon. Yeah. She does better with no day nap at all. and you get a much earlier bedtime. it does sound like she could be heading towards that pretty soon. so hopefully that gives you a few tips Bonnie to consider. Would you add anything to that, Laura?
Dr Laura (43:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
No, don't think so. As much as it is wonderful to have all that quiet time, yeah, I think we're just what we would like to future proof you, Bonnie, so that your daughter doesn't start getting a bit ratty and unhappy about all of that time by herself in her cot while she's not sleeping. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (43:33)
Mmm.
Yeah, can be
good to be proactive and get and keep things on track rather than having to drag them back on track later on if things get a bit wonky. Yeah, good. Brie emailed in she's a parent of a 15 month old low sleep needs child who was struggling with sleep disruption since starting childcare. Their son was sleeping well from 9pm to 6am with a 60 to 80 minute nap.
Dr Laura (43:46)
Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (44:05)
However, when he started childcare, he began having separation anxiety. They also give him longer naps because he seems so tired. So his naps have gone up to one and a half to two hours. And now he has more frequent night wakes. He's up two to four times and it can take 30 minutes to resettle him in the night. He's also had teething and illness, making sleep harder. They're unsure whether to base his sleep needs on 9.7 hours. That's very specific from recent tracking or assume that it's about 10 hours.
Dr Laura (44:22)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (44:35)
probably go with 10 hours and whether to cap his nap at 40 or 60 minutes to preserve the 9 p.m bedtime. They're also phasing out parental presence during sleep finding it difficult due to his agitation and he has some head banging behavior as well. Any advice on managing nap length bedtime and separation anxiety? Probably can't go into the separation anxiety so much today we probably need a whole other episode on that.
Dr Laura (44:36)
Yeah.
Mm.
yeah, we have lots of advice for you. No. Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, like Fallon says, I would just be rounding up to 10 hours rather than trying to split hairs with nine. And there can be variation from week to week. So I'd be thinking about 10 hours and I'd be having a chat with daycare about exactly why
Dr Fallon (45:10)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (45:25)
why they're giving him the longer naps and what he's like when they wake him from a shorter nap versus when he has a longer nap. Just to get a sense of their hesitation. know, sometimes when we work with some families whose children go to daycare five days a week, then we really want to have a firm understanding of the experiences of the educators who are looking after our little ones.
because we all need to work together rather than it being, we don't want to be clashing. So it's always good to understand from their perspective what's happening. And we know that some daycare centers are really hesitant about capping children's daytime naps or waking them early. And so it's good to know what your daycare center's policy is and try and work around that. if, for example, they will not wake your
toddler, then we have to think about what things are in our control and the things that are in our control of bedtime and wake up. Now I can see, Bri, that in your circumstances, you do have a very low sleep needs toddler. And I can imagine it's, you do not want to go too much later than 9pm. And so it's a little bit of a trickier case than maybe for other parents who might have a 12 hour or 13 hour sleep need toddler.
Dr Fallon (46:39)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (46:48)
where we've got a bit more wriggle room. So when you have such a late bedtime already, it does make it harder to accommodate a longer nap. So sitting down with the daycare educators and explaining to them what it does mean for you and your child if they do have a much longer daytime nap means that they can't fall asleep until 9.30 or 10, which really is just very, very late for a family.
so you have also had the teething and the illness on top of things. So you've really, you're really, getting, there's a lot on your plate, Bri. so, once he is better, then, I would say let's think about bringing back a more, a cap around his daytime sleep as long as it's possible with daycare and do everything you can to help them understand that, a cap on the daytime sleep is really important.
to preserve that good overnight sleep. So yeah, I would be thinking once he's better, you know, up to an hour daytime sleep max, so that you can preserve that 9pm bedtime. That's also then going to help settling when he's going into bed, when he's tired enough, like we've spoken about with some of the other answers today. You're going to be able to find it easier to gain traction on those settles at bedtime when his sleep pressure is high enough when he goes into the cot at night.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (48:13)
Excellent good shall we move on to Florencia's question now Laura?
Dr Laura (48:17)
Yeah, so Florencia has a 10 month old who's got a 12 hour sleep need. And Florencia is struggling with frequent night wakes and false starts. So their daughter previously slept in seven or eight hour stretches, now wakes eight to nine times a night. Oh, Florencia, that's really hard. Her baby's often screaming and seems distressed. And some of the blocks overnight are as short as 20 minutes.
Gosh, she naps twice a day for 30 minutes each. She's happy during the day. She's got a bedtime of eight, but wakes early from between five and six and needs resettling. So they're planning to use a slow fade approach, but they want to fix the daily rhythm first. So their questions are, what changes can they make to the daily rhythm to reduce false starts and early wakes and which cot settling technique would work best given that shushing, patting, singing,
and periodic leaving have all been very challenging in the past. That's a big question there.
Dr Fallon (49:21)
you
Yeah, this is,
this is a family I would love to see for a coaching call because it doesn't, it's not quite adding up. It sounds like she's got a lower sleep need than 12 hours. If she's just having two, um, quite short naps and then is doing 8 PM to five or 6 AM, it doesn't quite add up to 12 hours. And if her sleep needs are quite low, you know, sleep suddenly quite difficult. I'd just love to check in about things like medical factors that could be.
Dr Laura (49:29)
Mmm.
Mmm.
you
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (49:53)
you know, influencing things and really see that diary to figure out what's going on. So look, Florencia, that is what I would suggest. Book a coaching call if it's within your means. I think that would be really beneficial. But look, I would, you know, if you can't do that, you don't want to do that, that's okay. Have a look at the sleep diary. What is the actual sleep average sitting at at the moment? And I would try to cater to that. Go through the physiological factors that impact sleep chapter.
Dr Laura (50:21)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (50:21)
if there's
anything in there that makes you go, she does do that a bit. Go see a GP and follow that up in case there's a medical kind of component to some of this sleep difficulty. once we've got that sleep pressure high enough with a new daily rhythm and provided there's no other factors influencing things. you know, I would say then you will have success, even if you are patting and shushing and that previously didn't work. If the sleep drive is there, it will work if you're really consistent with it.
Dr Laura (50:27)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (50:49)
but it's going to be about getting that timing piece right. And I'm sort of reluctant to go, here's the perfect schedule for you without seeing that diary. Cause we're talking about pretty low sleep needs. What do you think Laura?
Dr Laura (50:52)
Hmm.
Yeah,
no, I think it's right to be a little bit cautious, Fallon. There has been, you know, your daughter previously did long stretches, florentia, and now is waking really frequently. So I think just doing a double check on the sleep needs and double checking the physiological factors is going to be really important. And then, yeah,
picking any of the approaches in Sombel are going to help your daughter to learn to go to sleep in her cot, although actually I'm not sure even if she's going to sleep, if she's going to sleep already in her cot at the start of the night by herself. And then it's just the wakes overnight that are problematic. Yeah, I would just be ruling out the physiological side of things first. And then...
Dr Fallon (51:53)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (51:55)
when those are ruled out, then picking one approach that you just do consistently every single resettle overnight.
Dr Fallon (52:02)
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah. So Florencia, if you're wanting a bit more help, just reach out. Cause I think it would be really good to, to unpick that one a little bit. Carmen had some questions around keeping the sleep diary, which I think we can answer pretty quickly. They're just wondering about when they're tracking the sleep in the diary, do they include when their child is asleep during feeds overnight? And should they continue with settling their baby in their arms after a short nap while filling in?
Dr Laura (52:09)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (52:30)
the diary or is that going to sort of make the diary inaccurate?
Dr Laura (52:33)
So when you're very first logging your child's sleep, don't change anything about how you settle them. Just settle them like you currently do. If you normally resettle them, carry on doing that. We just want to see kind of what the sleep needs are right now before you start anything. So if you're resettling her after a short nap at the moment, carry on doing so. You don't need to change anything else. In terms of the...
Dr Fallon (52:58)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (53:02)
logging the sleep overnight during the feeds. If you just get a sense, like often we have a sense that maybe half of the time our child is actually asleep and they're just doing that kind of not really using your breast as a pacifier rather than feeding. So then you might say, look, if it was a half an hour feed, but they were asleep for half of it, you might just say, well, they were 15 minutes of that. They were actually asleep.
Dr Fallon (53:32)
Mmm. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Angela says, my eight month old for the past three days has been doing only two naps. He finishes his second nap around 2 to 2.30 and I don't put him to sleep unless it's past 6.30 PM, usually 7 PM. And he sleeps until around 6.30 to 7 AM with two and a half hours day sleep. Is this pushing the wake window too much? Should I be putting him to bed earlier? I feel like he's okay.
Dr Laura (53:33)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (53:59)
But tonight during that last wake window, he was so upset and unsettled and just kept distracting. I had to keep distracting him until 6.45 PM.
Dr Laura (54:08)
so at eight months old, Angela is perfectly fine for your, baby to have a nice long stretch awake before the start of the night. So, you're, he's currently having around four hours, four and a half hours awake before he goes down at the start of the night. That's absolutely fine at this age.
Dr Fallon (54:29)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (54:29)
some days he will just be a bit grisly. Sometimes I'm a bit grisly to be honest, in the lead up to bed. Like all of us can be just in that last hour before bed, we might not be our best selves. we're more able to regulate ourselves than, than little ones. so, yeah, I would, I wouldn't be worried about, an eight month old being awake for, four, four and a half hours before bed. that's perfectly fine. Angela, would you add anything Fallon?
Dr Fallon (54:33)
Hehehehehe
Hmm.
Mmm.
Hmm. Yeah.
Well, if you're finding it really tricky, you could just try pushing the second nap just slightly later and see if that helps. I think a lot of the questions we get around this are provoked by parents seeing these ideal wake window charts online. And I've seen that from a few parents lately where they say, gosh, it's four or four and a half hours or five hours. They're perfectly happy. It's working really, really well for them, but they're like, but I keep seeing this advice that they should never be awake for longer than three and a half hours. So I must be doing something wrong.
Dr Laura (55:27)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (55:28)
No, you've actually following your baby. You're doing everything perfectly well. So yeah, that sounds good.
Dr Laura (55:31)
Yeah. Good.
Melinda has a three month old and has a question about awake times. So actually quite similar to Angela's question. Her baby can only manage 90 minutes awake during the day, settles okay for naps. He does need resettling, but that's, Melinda said that's okay for her. He sometimes has a wake up at 1am for a feed after going to bed at around nine. And his last awake time of the day is 90 minutes.
Dr Fallon (55:42)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (56:00)
He then wakes at 3 a.m. So he has a 1 a.m., a 3 a.m., and then he wakes at 7. The last week he's been waking every two hours for a little comfort in addition to that. So Melinda asks, is this a sleep pressure issue? Do we need to increase the awake times during the day? Is that why the number of weights he's having overnight is starting to increase?
Dr Fallon (56:23)
Hmm. It could be that, there's been a drop in sleep needs. That might be time just to dial back maybe one of those day naps instead of resettling him. Just let it be a shorter nap and see if that helps the nights. and when you say you're offering a little bit more of comfort in those two hourly wakes, I'd say just hesitate a moment when he wakes up, try and just wait a few minutes, listen to him, see what he does. sometimes babies wake up, they give a big cry and then a minute later they're quiet and they're back to sleep again. So just give him that little bit of time. If he's always
Dr Laura (56:35)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (56:53)
if you're always really quick to run over straight away and give some comfort, he's just gonna think, this is great, let's keep doing this. He's gonna start to feel a bit motivated to do it as well. So you can just pause a moment and see if you really need your help to get back to sleep or if he can manage it himself. Yeah, definitely check in on that daily rhythm too.
Dr Laura (57:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's around just giving him the opportunity to see what he's going to do when he wakes up in the night. So at this age, can't, I mean, we've got no babies, no babies are manipulating or trying to control their parents or anything like that. But, you know, it's just a case of when he wakes up during the night, has those very natural wakes, because we all have them all through the night. Just give it a moment. Just see what he will do. Give him the opportunity to see if he can just let out a cry and go back to sleep.
Dr Fallon (57:19)
Mmm.
No.
Dr Laura (57:40)
So don't feel like you have to bust over straight away.
Dr Fallon (57:40)
Mmm.
Yeah,
it's so normal for babies to start to let out a little squawk when they are in light sleep and then they'll just go straight back to sleep. But if parents start to rush over straight away, it just kind of keeps it going. yeah, very good. And Belinda wrote in, she's a soon to be fourth time parent who had very challenging sleep experiences with her first three children due to some ENT issues, sleep apnea and very frequent waking.
Dr Laura (57:50)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm
Dr Fallon (58:13)
So Belinda is feeling confident after completing the Newborn program, which is our zero to three month program. And Belinda is wondering how to manage bedtime routines when out at evening events as their partner is a musician and they're often out quite late. Any advice for handling bedtime interruptions while also trying to maintain consistency?
Dr Laura (58:34)
are. It's really, really hard when your family's lifestyle kind of clashes with setting up bedtime routines and expectations. look, when this is going to be your fourth time around the tracks, Belinda, and you may just be feeling really nervous because you have had sleep problems with your first three children.
which sound like they're pretty significant and were physiological in nature and they, you know, well done for getting on top of those. There's a good chance that this baby may not have such physiological issues and is just a, will feel like a walk in the park compared to the previous three. So it's gonna be a case of seeing what the temperament, the temperament of your new baby is.
Some little babies absolutely fine falling asleep in a loud spot in the pram or in a carrier and they just cope really well with it and then you don't actually have to change much about your lifestyle. But for others, they're really sensitive. It's actually gonna be really hard for them to sleep in really loud places. Then I'd be thinking about what supports you can have in place around you.
So perhaps somebody can stay home with the baby, be it you or a grandparent to help them settle at bedtime whilst you support your partner in their role. And just really working out what's gonna suit you and your new baby best. There isn't just a magic one answer, I wouldn't say until we know kind of what temperament and personality type and that
Dr Fallon (1:00:30)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (1:00:30)
how sensitive your baby is going to be around sleep. It's a bit hard to give you any kind of general advice. Falon, can you think of anything else?
Dr Fallon (1:00:39)
Hmm. Yeah, I would say
like some babies you'll find they can have a really late night every now and then, and they're fine. just adapt their day naps. They swing with the punches. They're all good. Like it just doesn't matter. And others will, parents will find, well, no, even if we're and about, you know, at 8pm, I really have to get them to sleep or the whole night is just going to be so challenging. if you are going to be settling them for sleep when you're out and about doing stuff.
Dr Laura (1:01:00)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:01:06)
the best advice I can give you is to take all the things from their bedtime routine. Obviously you can't do the bedtime routine, but what I mean is even if they would probably have a nap in the pram without having their normal sleep sack that they'd sleep in or even maybe not their dummy or if they're an older baby, it could be a comforter. Take any of those things with you. And when you go to settle them in the pram for their nighttime sleep, even though they might not need their sleep sack, put it on them anyway, because you're showing them that doesn't matter where we are.
Dr Laura (1:01:32)
you
Dr Fallon (1:01:35)
When that sleep sack comes out and I give you the comforter if they're old enough for one or the dummy if they have one or maybe you're humming a song in their ear when they're, you know, they're falling asleep. You're teaching them that when these things are present, we go to sleep. not be in bed. It might be in the pram laid flat with the hood pulled over. So it's a little bit darker. But it's similar enough to their bedtime at home that they kind of take the cue and get to sleep at that time. And I did that with all of my kids. If we had mother's group, you know, in the middle of nap time, I took the sleep sack and
all the things they needed for sleep and I would, well, when they're really little, I'd swaddle them, you know, put them in the pram laying down flat. and they would just take the cue that yeah, it's sleep time. So yeah, it's going to depend a bit on temperament, whether you just let them have a late night and you know, an extra day nap that day, or whether you need to really stick to the same bedtime. in which case take those sleep associations with you as best you can. and have fun because maybe you've got a little.
Dr Laura (1:02:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:02:31)
little rockstar baby who's going to absolutely love going out and being in amongst it all. And yeah, hopefully they'll be really flexible and be quite conducive with your lifestyle. That's what we always hope for, isn't it?
Dr Laura (1:02:35)
Yes!
Yes. Yeah, look, take
some hope from the first question from Katie, who had a three month old unicorn baby. Maybe you're going to have one of those two, Belinda. Yeah. I think absolutely. I wish we had them. I wish we did have a magic wand and we could like wave it and go to the Belinda is to have a unicorn baby, please. No.
Dr Fallon (1:02:51)
yeah, isn't Belinda due for one of those after three others that had tricky sleep? She's owed her unicorn. Yeah.
We haven't been granted those powers yet, but maybe one day.
Dr Laura (1:03:12)
you
Dr Fallon (1:03:12)
Well, thank you everyone for tuning in and a huge thank you to Renee, Gillian, Karen and Kelly who bought us coffees in the past week. It was so lovely and they posted lovely things about us when they thanked us and gave us those coffees. It's really, really lovely. If we've helped you and you'd like to buy us a coffee, it's so easy. Just go to buymeacoffee.com slash infant dot sleep.
Dr Laura (1:03:21)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:03:35)
And there's link in the show notes as well. And if you enjoy this podcast, please leave us a review. You know, some rotten person gave us a one star review the other day, Laura. Isn't that mean they didn't write why they just gave a one star review. So we need our army of supporters to go and hit that five star button to, to tell that person, no, to bugger off. Anyway, yeah, subscribe to the podcast. If you haven't hit the subscribe button. And of course, if you have a baby or a toddler and you're having, you know, protracted
Dr Laura (1:03:44)
Did they?
Yes, please.
Dr Fallon (1:04:05)
bed time, settling is really tricky, they're waking all the time, you know, they're needing heaps of support to fall asleep. You owe it to them and to yourself to work on having really great sleep health. It changes the lives of families and it's so possible to do. We have our sleep clinics you can come and visit us at if you're in Melbourne, but we also have a telehealth clinic and we see people all around the world as long as they're not in America for insurance purposes. So really no matter where you are, we can see you if it's outside of America.
And of course we have the Sombelle programs, which mean you can literally get started today. So if you're needing that support, reach out. That's what we're here for. If you're member, you can book a coaching call with me too. So yeah, thanks for tuning in everybody. Have a fantastic week and you'll hear from us again next week.
Dr Laura (1:04:49)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
