Dr Fallon (00:00)
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. We are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, we've taken a week off. How was your long weekend?
Dr Laura (00:20)
Yeah, it was lovely. Thank you. And just being the British born person that I am, I have to say, I've enjoyed the hot weather and being able to go in the water. But I was delighted yesterday when the heat broke. And I woke up overnight and realized that I wasn't sweating and hot and uncomfortable. It's been very nice to actually have a good night's sleep without those in the intense heat that we have.
Dr Fallon (00:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, the cool autumn nights are just so nice after such a hot summer. It feels like summer's gone forever. And I'm a winter person. I want to be able to light the fire and get cozy. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah, really good. Yeah. Good to spend time with the kids and yeah, catching up with family and.
Dr Laura (00:54)
Mmm, yes.
Yes! Yeah, there's those Scottish roots coming out. How was your long weekend?
Dr Fallon (01:12)
Yeah, it was really good. feel like I needed it. I think it does us good actually to have a week off from the podcast every now and then to just kind of focus on other things and then come back to it fresh again. So maybe that's why I chose such a tricky topic to get back into the podcast with. Um, you know, we all the time, you know, Laura, just the other week I, um, ended up just like turning off my phone and kind of chucking it down on the couch into a scuss because
Dr Laura (01:18)
Hmm.
Yeah.
You
Dr Fallon (01:41)
I'd gone and logged into Instagram and was like scrolling through stuff. And obviously because we talk about sleep all the time, it pops up in our algorithm all the time. And it was just so bombarded with the most confusing, horrible nonsense and competing ideas and all this like emotional, just junk that really isn't grounded in good quality science. And it just makes me so frustrated because I think if I was an exhausted first time parent.
Dr Laura (01:49)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
you
Mm.
Dr Fallon (02:10)
I would feel so pulled in every direction. And I know every now and then we do an episode like this where we're like, right, saw this nonsense online and let's set the record straight. But I think we've just got to keep doing it because it's just a minefield out there for these poor parents.
Dr Laura (02:12)
you
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah, it is. most weeks we do receive emails from parents asking, you know, am I doing anything wrong? Is there something wrong with my baby? And we get emails from families where their babies are sleeping really well. the parents are really worried that something is wrong, because they're sleeping well. So it goes both ways. So we have emails from families saying, my baby's up.
Dr Fallon (02:31)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (02:51)
15 times a night, but I understand that that's normal because they can't self soothe at this age. And then we get the other extreme, my baby sleeping for eight hours straight. Is there something wrong with them? Because I hear that's not biologically normal and they should be waking up 15 times a night. So parents no matter which end. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:59)
Hmm
Yeah.
Yeah, so at least every,
yeah, at least them all just feeling like really confused and like they mustn't be getting things right. And I think, you know, I suppose our children are that little bit older and whilst it all still feels pretty fresh really, when our very first borns were first born, there just wasn't so much conflicting information and.
No one talked about wake windows, for example. No one talked about that at all. It was just like, they kind of look tired. Let's put them down for sleep. Like there just wasn't all of this noise that would, I don't know, just be in your ear telling you, you're everything wrong or have you considered this and why haven't you tried that? we were probably quite lucky to experience that. I feel like if I was a new mom today, I would be getting rid of all my social media accounts and just ignoring everything, or I would just go completely crazy.
Dr Laura (03:52)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (04:05)
And
that's a shame because I love social media. think it's an awesome platform for actually bringing people together. but it's just, it only just takes the algorithm making a few tweaks and suddenly, you know, it's a pit of despair.
Dr Laura (04:11)
Mmm.
Yeah,
that's right. So we're here to give our listeners today a little bit of confidence in themselves and their babies and toddlers. And why don't we just kick off, Fallon by talking about what happens with babies when they're first born, when they're really tiny. What kind of self soothing behaviors might we see, do you think, in very little babies?
Dr Fallon (04:38)
Mmm.
Yeah. So in very little babies, sometimes they show, you know, no self-soothing behaviors and that can be completely normal. But some babies, you know, you'll see parents say, we could see our babies sucking their thumb, even in utero, you know, when they were having an ultrasound, some babies are born and they just kind of know some strategies already that make them feel good and make them feel calm. So if they're getting worked up and upset, they might put their thumb in their mouth or
Dr Laura (05:00)
Yes.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (05:14)
Some babies just like to bring their hands together. They're usually a bit older, those babies. Or it might be that they like to kind of just grab at their face or suck their fingers. Some babies just are born knowing how to do that. And often I think these are the babies that parents will say, they're an easy baby. You know, they're happy all the time. They don't really get upset very much. It's because those babies just somehow have developed this skill where they've got something they like to do that makes them feel calmer and happier.
Dr Laura (05:18)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (05:43)
and I think that leads those parents saying, they're kind of easier. but yeah, some babies just absolutely don't have any of those skills and that's nothing to be worried about at all. It just can take time to develop those sorts of behaviors. And I think Laura, should we talk about sort of the difference between, you know, how self soothing is a different thing to self regulating, which is a different thing to self settling. I think it's worth unpacking that a little bit. Cause I think that's another, source of confusion.
Dr Laura (05:46)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (06:13)
Do you want to describe maybe what's maybe what self-regulation actually is?
Dr Laura (06:13)
Yes.
Yeah,
so self-regulation is humans' abilities to be able to process and respond to a range of emotions that they feel all the way across the day and at night. And it's developed incrementally all the way through infancy, childhood, teenage years. And look, some people never really ever.
Dr Fallon (06:46)
Hehehehe
Dr Laura (06:46)
acquire the ability
to self-regulate effectively. And we're not thinking about any particular politicians at this point. And it's an ongoing process that is linked to the different stages of development in the brain, social development, and it happens, as I say, over a long period of time.
Dr Fallon (06:49)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr Laura (07:15)
And I think sometimes what happens, Valen, is when you see people making statements like a baby can't self-soothe because they don't have that skill yet, that's not appropriate for a baby to have that skill, is that they are confusing self-regulation and self-soothing. So of course, part of self-soothing is being able to calm.
Dr Fallon (07:36)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (07:43)
yourself and your body when you're upset. So there is an element of self-regulation to that, but we're not talking about self-regulation as a whole, which is a big topic and it covers all kinds of emotions. And as I say, it develops all the way over time and it involves using your cognition to appreciate and logically evaluate the situations that you're in, which as I say, lots of adults can't do, let alone little babies.
Dr Fallon (07:47)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (08:11)
But when we're talking about self-soothing, we're really talking about the ability to calm your body when you are upset, which is then different again from self-settling. Self-settling, when we talk about it in the context of babies and toddlers, the ability to go to sleep without support from other people around you. And you don't have, yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:26)
Mmm.
Hmm. Yeah. So they all sort of have elements
of each other to some degree, but they're, they're distinctly different. Hmm.
Dr Laura (08:41)
They do.
Yes, yeah.
some children can go to sleep can self settle, some babies and toddlers can self settle. And they've always been able to self settle by which I mean, they just go to sleep independently without needing any support to go to sleep. And they can go from, they can just do it very calmly. So self settling doesn't have to be from a point of distress.
Dr Fallon (09:02)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (09:14)
It can just, it's simply about the point of going to sleep is a baby or toddler doing that independently or not. And if they're doing it independently, it's called self settling. If they're not doing it independently, they are not yet able to self settle.
Dr Fallon (09:33)
Yeah, I think these distinctions are so important because I often, you know, it's like a tactic with any, any point of contention. I'm not going to start pulling them out of the air, but when you look at, know, any topic that is contentious, there'll always be a side that'll try to mince the words. And, know, so, so when someone's trying to say, you know, my baby has these behaviors they use, these self-soothing behaviors and that, you know, they like to
suck their thumb or something and it helps them feel calm. You'll have someone coming in and going, nonsense, they can't self-regulate yet, they're too little. And it's like, no, that's not what we're talking about. So I think, yeah, the more parents that understand the distinction, the better it is. I think, so thinking about self-soothing behaviors, like anything a human will do to help themselves feel calmer, I think it's really important to know that
Dr Laura (10:13)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (10:26)
No amount of well-developed self-soothing behaviors is going to kind of overcome a human's innate drive to have their needs met. You know, if your baby or your toddler or your fully grown husband has pain or hunger or thirst or just a need for comfort, we all need comfort from people around us. Self-soothing behaviors are not going to override that.
Dr Laura (10:37)
Hmm.
No.
Dr Fallon (10:53)
They might help you. It's sort of like often, think, you know, parents will say, usually more with older babies, they'll say, when they wake up and they're really hungry, they're crying a lot. But as soon as they see that I'm going to get their bottle ready, they'll calm down and they might grizzle and make some noises, but they'll do their self soothing behaviors. They're trying to keep themselves calm. Cause then there's not a of point in getting cranky. The bottle is going to take as long as it takes. And that's often when parents will see those.
Dr Laura (11:15)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (11:18)
behaviors start to happen, but it's not that they can completely extinguish that, that crying and upset. They're just doing something to help them stay calm, knowing that the thing they need is coming soon.
Dr Laura (11:28)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
And they'll, they will, when they know that their need is about to be met, they might pop their thumb in their mouth, or they might start to twirl their hair for toddlers and preschoolers, or, you know, a child might start to play with their ear in anticipation of, okay, I know I have to just wait another couple of minutes because I know from my experience with mum or dad,
Dr Fallon (11:39)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:56)
that my need is about to be met. And I can, I'm just going to hold it together for a moment because it's coming. I've expressed my need through crying or yelling or whatever that, you know, a toddler might be doing. I've expressed the need. I have an experience of my need always being met by my loving caregivers. Now I've seen that they have noticed and heard me and I can now just take it down a level.
Dr Fallon (11:59)
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (12:26)
keep myself calm for a moment because it's about to come.
Dr Fallon (12:27)
Hmm.
Yes, and don't parents of multiples know that so well? Like, when you've got multiples, there's always a baby that just has to wait a little bit longer because you're busy with the other babies. And yeah, those babies tend to have more opportunities to try and find those self soothing behaviors, the things that can help them to just stay a little calmer while they're waiting their turn. They often do that a bit earlier. And of course, that does
Dr Laura (12:33)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (12:55)
then factor into self-soothing. So often multiples are pretty terrific sleepers, not always, but they've had often a lot more time to try and work on those skills. So then when they wake up overnight, they're more likely to kind of go, oh, well, I've got these skills I could use to just get back to sleep again, to calm myself and get back to sleep. So yeah, I think the parents of multiples, you know, know that really, really well.
Dr Laura (13:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (13:19)
and I think it's really important to know that whilst we're talking about, know, some newborns might have some self-soothing behaviors they use, their capacity to use them isn't very well developed at that young age. So a newborn who is distraught and crying, yeah, they might know how to find their thumb, for example. but that might not be enough to bring them back to calm. Usually it won't be, you know, but as they get older, as they move across that first year in particular,
Dr Laura (13:38)
Hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:45)
the ability
to be able to soothe themselves a little bit, get stronger over time. But every child is on a completely different time course. And I think temperament plays a massive role in this. Some of them really struggle and just won't develop those behaviors for a really long time. Others do it really quickly. And a lot of parents will report that at around about that four-ish, five-month mark,
Dr Laura (13:54)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (14:11)
their babies are developing more of those skills. And so parents will say, I noticed them put their thumb in. So I just kind of took a step back and I just waited a minute to see what they did. And that's when often parents will say, yeah, they have some things they do now and I'm seeing them use it at bedtime. And they're actually starting to do some self settling because they're using some self soothing strategies to do that. So yeah.
Dr Laura (14:20)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yes, yes.
you know, even today, we've had some emails where parents will say that their baby, older baby will wake up during the night and then the parents hear, see, look on the monitor, and then they see their older baby just moving their head from side to side or just banging their legs up and down or rocking. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:57)
The Rock. Yeah, the whale tail legs.
Dr Laura (15:01)
And then they are
amazed and then they go back to sleep. the baby has learned that they can wake up and hang on, what's going on? I've woken up in the middle of the night. but I know that I can do this, the whale tail or moving my head and keep myself calm and go back to sleep. And isn't that wonderful when that happens?
Dr Fallon (15:20)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (15:29)
And that will happen at different points for every child. And it will depend on many things such as how they went to sleep in the first place, which would then potentially lead to, you know, thinking for older kids, if they've gone to sleep in one place on the couch in front of the TV, and then they wake up in their bed, they're going to be going,
Dr Fallon (15:29)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (15:53)
they might have an adrenaline rush because they're like somewhere completely different and they're like what on earth's going on and then they really will have to use their self soothing behaviors because they'll be from a point of upset. So yes, that's where I guess the we start to get into a little bit of it can see where it gets a bit muddy around self settle versus self soothing. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (16:02)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, it definitely is a bit murky sort of the distinction between them. And I think as well, it's completely valid and fine for some parents to say, my baby shows no signs of self soothing behaviors. They don't seem to really do anything to help themselves calm. And I do all of the calming for them. And I'm entirely happy to do that for three or four years and just wait until those skills come about.
that's totally valid if that's the course you want to take and it feels manageable for you.
that's fine and I'm not going to try talk you into doing anything else if that's what you want to do it's fine. But equally we need to respect the parents who say I need my child to develop some self-soothing skills. So they might more like especially parents and multiples they might be approaching this or if you've got older children thinking I'm definitely going to be giving my baby lots of opportunities to see like I'm going to hold back a little bit when they cry and just see what they do give them that chance to try and see if they can calm themselves.
Dr Laura (16:51)
Hmm. Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (17:16)
because
that's a priority for that family. Those families might be thinking, and I was certainly one of those families, you you're thinking, well, I've got multiple children and I can't be doing all the soothing for years and years on end. For me, it was a priority to go, well, I'm just gonna hang back a little bit, which can literally mean waiting 30 seconds when your baby cries. And I'm not talking about little newborns, but when they're a little bit bigger and they're more likely to show themselves soothing skills.
Dr Laura (17:18)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:43)
It's waiting that moment and letting them try and figure it out because so many babies, I think as parents, we don't realize how capable they are. They often will, you know, if we just take a step back, they go, what can I do to actually calm myself a little bit? But if we are constantly right there with them, they're not going to have that opportunity to practice. There's nothing wrong with that if that's how you want to parent.
Dr Laura (17:50)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (18:06)
But I think that's the key, isn't it? It's that every parent makes a decision around whether they want to push for these skills to develop quickly or just let it be and see what happens over time. And there is no right or wrong. you know, Laura, this taps into something we were talking about the other day. It's, it's a red flag for me when somebody is on the internet and saying, you have to do it this way. And if you do it any other way, you're damaging your baby. Like it's total nonsense. It really is.
Dr Laura (18:33)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (18:34)
probably the best way to spot someone who isn't really across what the science says, because you really do as a parent, you have that choice, you can make that call and anyone who's trying to push you one direction or the other, he's not really doing a great job.
Dr Laura (18:39)
Mm.
No. And, you know, all babies, those that can use some self soothing behaviors and those that can't yet use those behaviors, they all need comfort and love. And all we know that all of the families who listening to our podcasts are invested in parenting in the best possible way for their families, and they will all be loving their babies and toddlers to death.
Dr Fallon (19:05)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (19:19)
And the ability to, if you did want to wait for a minute, two minutes, five minutes, however long it is you want to wait to give your little one the moment to see if they can suck their thumb or play with their ear or rub their nose or move their head from side to side. If you choose to make that decision, that doesn't mean
Dr Fallon (19:20)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (19:48)
that you're not loving them and providing them with comfort. It just means you're giving them the opportunity for a brief period of time just to see what is in their environment. And then you can continue to give them all the comfort and love that they need for their development.
Dr Fallon (19:52)
Hmm.
Yeah, I think that's such a good point because it is almost demonized a little bit this idea that if a baby is really good at self soothing, they've got these strategies they use, they stay calm, they're often described as really happy babies. These babies aren't expected to self soothe all the time. They're not expected to get through life with no cuddles, no love and attention. And in fact, the opposite is often true that
Dr Laura (20:29)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (20:33)
they are really happy content babies and their parents are spending all day playing with them, engaging, interacting, having all of these really lovely interactions, you know, they're not missing out. And it almost sounds like a silly thing to even need to say, you know, when you're across the science, of course, babies who have self-soothing skills are fine. But I just want to reiterate that because there is that, that fear mongering out there that
babies who are self settling are going to have all these problems. This is not the case. We just don't have the evidence for that at all. And I think parents know too, they recognize when babies are starting to develop some of those self soothing skills. And I think parents are good at recognizing that and good at giving their babies the space to grow those skills when they're ready. Yeah. So I hope that that is a helpful discussion, gives a bit of food for thought around these things.
Dr Laura (21:17)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (21:25)
And I think,
you know, for all parents listening as well, try and take that information and approach other parents with a lot of sensitivity around, you know, you might be teaching your baby lots of self-soothing skills. They might not want to. It's totally fine. I think we all just have to remember to be, you know, there's lots of ways to do things and we've just got to be really kind to each other because we are all on these different journeys, which is your favorite word, Laura, we're all on different journeys. But it is so true.
Dr Laura (21:47)
hahahaha
God, I
hate that word.
Dr Fallon (21:53)
know, we've
got to be much kinder to each other and you know that's in real life and social media as well.
Dr Laura (21:57)
Hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
All right. Shall we get onto parent questions, Fallon? Yeah. So, yeah, I'll start with Katie's. So, Katie has a three and a half month old who's a catnapper. And Katie's baby's longest awake time is about two and a half hours, but it can fluctuate during the day.
Dr Fallon (22:04)
Yeah, let's do it. Do you want to start with Katie?
Dr Laura (22:26)
Currently, Katie's baby's last nap is at around 7pm. And she says, we've tried putting her to bed at 7.30, but she wakes after one sleep cycle. Instead, we've found that after her 7pm nap, giving her a bottle bath and bedtime routine helps her settle herself to sleep by about 8.30pm. Sometimes she wakes after one sleep cycle still, but she puts herself back to sleep within five or 10 minutes without a fuss.
Katie says that skipping that last nap seems to lead to lots of crying. So I think what she's tried to do before is skip the last nap and bring bedtime a bit earlier, but it just doesn't work. And so keeping that last nap at 7pm and doing bedtime at 8.30 seems to be working and she's not, she doesn't cry when she's popped down. But Katie is concerned that as her baby grows, she won't have enough sleep pressure.
Dr Fallon (23:05)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (23:23)
and therefore is going to start to struggle settling herself at bedtime. So her question is when and how should I drop the 7pm nap if her bedtime is 8.30pm?
Dr Fallon (23:36)
Yeah, look, I would say it's working fine for now. So don't be too stressed. You're just going to look for the usual signs that it's time to drop a nap. So if bedtime settling starts to become really tricky or takes a long time or night waking is dramatically increasing, or you're having split nights where your baby's awake for an hour or more, or maybe just the settling for that 7pm nap will become trickier. Or you might even find you put them down and actually they just treat it as bedtime.
Dr Laura (24:02)
Mmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (24:06)
So you'll
notice a shift and try not to worry too much. If over the course of a week, you know, a few of those variables seem to have changed. I would say it's time to drop that nap and you'll just space out the other naps a little bit more. It'll be bumpy for a week or two while your baby adjusts, but they will adjust. They all do. So try not to worry too much ahead of time.
Dr Laura (24:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and you might also find, Katie, that once your baby drops that 7pm nap, the other or at around the same time, she starts to have at least one longer nap during the day. Often cat nappers stay on shorter naps for a little bit longer. And then when they start to link a sleep cycle earlier on in the day in one of their naps, then it does become easier to drop the later nap.
Dr Fallon (24:40)
Mmm.
Hmm. Yeah, excellent. All right. We have Monique who's written in with an update on her now 11 month old. He has a 12 hour sleep need and sleeps 10 hours overnight from 8pm to 6am. Lovely. And takes two naps, a long morning nap and a shorter afternoon one. Recently, both the morning and therefore the afternoon naps have been pushed later, making it hard to fit the second nap in before bedtime. Bedtime and naps
Dr Laura (25:00)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:21)
which were previously smooth, now involve some crying and needing reassurance before settling. They're wondering if this signals a transition to one nap. And additionally, they're traveling overseas in six weeks and they're not sure if sticking to two naps during the trip is okay as long as the total sleep stays consistent.
Dr Laura (25:40)
Hmm, Monique, are on tricky ground at the moment because your baby is only 11 months old, but is beginning to show some signs that he's getting close to moving to the one nap. I would say probably for now, look at keeping the two naps, but look at making both of them the short naps.
Dr Fallon (26:09)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (26:09)
So at the moment
when your baby's having a longer morning nap, it's beginning to be a bit hard to fit that afternoon nap in so that you can keep bedtime the same. He may find 11 months a bit too hard to go the whole day without an afternoon nap. So I would be looking at, let's shorten the morning nap to the same length as the afternoon one and then try and keep bedtime the same.
then you're more likely to be able to stay on two naps for a little bit longer. Potentially, you're traveling, I'm just having a little look, so you're traveling overseas in six weeks. Yeah, you might have some luck. You might be able to stay on two short naps whilst you're away. But if not, whilst you're away, you'd probably move to the one longer nap. And that might make traveling a little bit easier for you as well, Monique, because then you only need to fit one nap in each day.
Dr Fallon (26:53)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (27:05)
Would you add anything different, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (27:05)
Yeah,
I think that's really good advice. think when you're traveling, just wing it. Just make sure they don't go crazy with a heap of day sleep and throw their nights right out. But I just wouldn't be too worried if it's a bit of back and forth between two short naps or one longer one. Most important thing is just to have a really great trip. And when you get back home, you'll probably find they're totally ready for the one nap at that point. Yeah. And they'll adjust to jet lag into one nap at the same time, potentially.
Dr Laura (27:22)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, so have a lovely trip Monique, let us know how you get on. Okay, so our next question is from Stephanie. So Stephanie has a 13 month old who's been struggling with separation, anxiety and some sleep disruptions for the last two weeks or so after one of her parents went away overseas for a brief period.
Dr Fallon (27:36)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (27:59)
Before that, their baby slept well after Stephanie used the supported accelerated approach and also played independently. But now their toddler is clingy during the day and is waking frequently at night and needs to be patted in order to resettle. So Stephanie says that they attempted to use a supported accelerated approach again, but they just found that this time around, their baby cried a lot and they
So they're so tired that they weren't able to persist. So they're resorted to staying in the room with their baby, padding him off to sleep. He currently has two naps that total an hour and a half and he's sleeping 10 and a half hours overnight. they're asking Stephanie and her partner are asking for advice on how to handle this phase and whether and when they should start cot settling again.
Dr Fallon (28:56)
Hmm. It's so hard on little ones when a parent suddenly is gone, they suddenly realize, okay, that can happen. That's a thing that can happen. So I'm not surprised that there's a bit of separation anxiety, Stephanie. But most babies will have a period of separation anxiety and it could have been triggered by anything. So don't harbor any guilt over it. You know, they usually will have this phase at some point. You're doing the exact right thing.
Dr Laura (29:04)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (29:22)
as well. It doesn't sound like the right time to be trying to go for super independent settling and padding them off to sleep is I think a really kind thing to do. You're just showing them that it's fine, I'm here. And usually what parents will find is after maybe a week of doing that, sometimes two, that anxiety starts to dissipate a little bit because you're kind of always around. And then you might find it's actually really easy to go back to the supported accelerated approach.
Dr Laura (29:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:48)
Or
you might decide that you just don't want to go back to that approach again. Maybe you feel like it's just too tricky and that's fine too. In which case you could use the quick fade steps to just gradually phase out any padding or humming that you're doing and just gradually phase that out until all you're doing is sitting on the chair nearby while they fall asleep. And then you might find that you can, I'm not sure if you've got the toddler program, the toddler program includes a process called parental fading.
Dr Laura (29:58)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (30:14)
which is a really gentle way of getting your baby used to you just leaving the room briefly and then coming back. But really important to follow those steps closely so you don't re-trigger the separation anxiety. So look, I would love to give you a really quick fix Stephanie, but I think with separation anxiety, know, slow and steady wins the race. And it might just be a case of just going, going slow and just doing a gradual phase out of the padding if that's what's needed. Have I missed anything there, Laura?
Dr Laura (30:25)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
I would just be thinking through when you do come to change how you settle, if you do wean off the padding or go back to using the support accelerated approach, just consider whether your baby is ready to drop down to one nap. He's 13 months old now. One of the reasons that may be a bit tricky when you've reintroduced the support accelerated approach could just be because the sleep pressure wasn't quite high enough.
but because there's so many things going on there, in your family at the moment that, you know, it can be hard to pinpoint exactly which, which factor is that is at play. But I think Fallon, the first port of call, which is kind of being respectful of that separation anxiety and giving your baby a bit more support as he, just gets, back into the swing of things is a really, a good place to start. And then yeah, perhaps.
Dr Fallon (31:11)
Yeah, good catch.
Dr Laura (31:39)
Yeah, just think through, he showing any of those signs that he's ready to drop down to one nap and do that before you then change how you settle in.
Dr Fallon (31:45)
Mmm.
Yeah,
definitely. You're doing a great job, Stephanie. It's, yeah, you've really approached it in the right way. I think, Melissa says we've started to transition to one nap and I'm wondering what to do when that one and only nap is only one sleep cycle. and she's also sent through an update a week later to say we've done a full week of one nap and the naps got longer, but we've had a full week of multiple wakes at night, at least three.
Dr Laura (31:54)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (32:16)
In the past we would have had some nights with a wake or two and some nights sleeping through. Is this a clue that maybe something isn't right with the one nap schedule? She's sleeping for 11 hours overnight and naps for one hour.
Dr Laura (32:30)
Yeah, that's, look, it's not unusual for in that transition period of time for things to go wobbly. You know, sometimes we talk about how, when we're changing something about how or when a baby or toddler sleeps, it's a bit like throwing all the cards up in the air, and then they come down to rest again. And you're just one week into doing the, you know, just offering the one nap a day. And so the
nights are a little bit wobbly. I would perhaps just give it a little bit longer just to see if it calms down. But if it doesn't, then I'll be having a think through. don't I think we don't want to go back to offering another nap. think from memory, Melissa's baby is a bigger, you know, as a toddler. So sticking with the one nap. Now you've made that change is worth continuing with.
but just then having a think about do they actually need 11 hours overnight? It could be moving bedtime 15 minutes later, for example, and just see if that improves things or moving wake up a little bit earlier. And just ensuring that that nap stays as consistent as possible. It sounds like having an hour long nap might be having one or two sleep cycles a day. If that's working well.
Dr Fallon (33:34)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (33:56)
for
them, then keep going on that longer nap. wouldn't want to be shortening it, given that they've only just dropped down to one nap. Anything to add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (34:06)
Yeah and
I'd just say something I see often in families is that they drop to one nap but then they let wake up time drift around or bedtime drift around a lot. So if your baby's or toddler's woken three times at night are you getting them up on time or are letting them play catch up with a bit of a sleep in?
Dr Laura (34:18)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (34:27)
maybe an earlier bedtime the next night, because so often that's actually perpetuating those night wakes. So be sure to get them up on time in the morning and power through the day on that one nap. And that can make a really big difference. That sleep drive suddenly increases at nighttime because their circadian rhythms kind of going, heck, I can't wake up three times because they get me up on time every day. That's going to bring that drive back up again.
Dr Laura (34:33)
Yeah, good point Fallon.
Ehh
Yes!
Yeah.
All right. Now we have a question from Kiara who has a seven month old who has a sleep need of around about 12 hours. She sleeps through the night every couple of nights, but then on other nights wakes once or twice a night. Her baby falls asleep independently in her cot, but the daily amount of sleep that she gets fluctuates.
a lot from day to day. So Kiara says that one day in a week it might be nine and half hours that she's getting per 24 hours and then another day it might be 13 hours. Kiara describes how after one or two long sleep days she often has a short sleep day leading to night wake-ups or split nights.
And Chiara wants to know should they reduce nap totals, push bedtime later or wake their baby earlier on those long sleep days to protect the nighttime sleep? Is that variation normal or is it something they can address? what a good question Fallon. Yeah. Yep.
Dr Fallon (35:54)
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely something you can address. I see this all the time in sleep
diaries. There's three days with heaps of sleep, three days with hardly any sleep, and parents are often like, well, I want lots of sleep every day. And I hate to say it, but you're not going to get it. This is why you look at the average, because some babies will cycle from lots to very little. And exactly what Ciara describes happens. They sometimes have these terrible nights with huge long wags, and then they'll go and sleep through.
Dr Laura (36:04)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (36:23)
So we have to standardize that because some babies will do it themselves, but a lot of babies won't. The circadian rhythm just keeps kind of cycling between these two extremes and it can just keep doing that unless we pull it into check. So what is the average amount of sleep your baby is doing? Work out a daily rhythm based around that. You can use the daily rhythm charts in Sunbell to get a bit of a guide on where to start and absolutely wake them up on time in the morning. Don't let them overdo the day naps.
Dr Laura (36:28)
Mm hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:53)
keep pushing through. can feel uncomfortable to wake up a baby who's happily sleeping, but it's going to be so much better for you, Kiara, when every day is a bit more similar because you're describing, you know, a huge degree of variation day to day. And that can feel really punishing for parents and you know, for babies as well. means they sleep pressure is all over the place. It's not doing something similar each day. So it can mean that some settles are really, really tricky.
Dr Laura (37:00)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (37:23)
Yeah. So I'd definitely be looking at that average working at a daily rhythm, sticking to it. And you'll start to find, yeah, she's self settling. since she's settling independently in her cot. So there's every chance your baby will then just start sleeping through every night instead of every few nights. so let us know how you go, Kiara. It's yeah. So glad you brought that question to the podcast.
Dr Laura (37:36)
Hmm. Guess.
Awesome. Okay, where are we up to? Is it my turn or your turn? Okay.
Dr Fallon (37:48)
We're up to Grace. I think it's my turn to read one
out. So Grace has a five and a half month old who's on a three nap schedule. So 45 minutes in the morning, an hour and a half at lunchtime, 45 minutes in the afternoon. So it's what three hours total day sleep.
Dr Laura (38:02)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (38:05)
She usually falls asleep within 5 to 10 minutes and sleeps through the night from 7.30pm to 7am. For the last few days she's been taking longer to fall asleep and waking 30 minutes into the 1.5 hour lunchtime nap and needs resettling. So Grace is wondering if this is a sign to drop a nap or if it's too early. They're also considering trimming the first and last nap to 30 minutes each but want to ensure they're addressing the change appropriately as it's only been happening for a few days.
Dr Laura (38:35)
Okay. Sounds like you've been living the dream there, Grace. You've got a good daily rhythms. Yeah, really lovely sleep. And you are entering the realm of dropping down from three naps to two naps. Usually that happens somewhere between six and seven months of age. Of course, there are going to be some babies that do it for six months and some that do it after seven months, closer to eight months.
Dr Fallon (38:42)
Yeah, it's lovely sleep.
Dr Laura (39:05)
So I would be thinking you've just only started to see these changes in the last few days. So we always generally advise waiting for a week, if not more, to see if there's anything else disrupting sleep. Sometimes there can be teeth coming through, a child coming down with a bug, something else happening. And when we just hold off making any changes for a few days, gives
time for whatever that was to pass and then sleep gets back on track. If that doesn't happen for you, look, my initial thoughts are around how long your baby's sleep cycles are because those first, the first and last nap of 45 minutes each and then the middle one an hour and a half, which suggests that the cycles are 45 minutes and she's having two sleep cycles for that middle of the day nap.
But then you're describing that she's starting to wake up after half an hour from the middle of the day nap, which just makes me wonder what's happening with her sleep cycle length. Because when you're talking about one of the strategies of keeping her on three naps could be to shorten those 45 minute naps to 30 minute naps. I would only say yes, that's a good idea if her sleep cycles are in fact 30 minutes long.
Dr Fallon (40:31)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (40:32)
Because if they're not, if they are actually 45 minutes long, you might have a really grumpy baby on your hand if you're waking her after only 35 minutes, 30 minutes rather, because she's mid sleep cycle. So I wouldn't be, yeah, so I guess I would first of all, Grace, just have a check, just watch her when she's sleeping and get a sense if the sleep cycles are changing for how long they are. And then I'd be thinking about
Dr Fallon (40:43)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (41:00)
how she's functioning in those wake windows between her naps. And it may be that what you need to do if you do need to change anything is if she still is struggling to stay awake for longer than two and a half hours, three hours during the day, you probably want to keep her on the three naps for a bit longer, but short in that middle of the day one. So all three naps are the same length as each other.
Give her another few weeks on that and then you'll start to find that she starts to have a longer first nap, which means that then you can only fit the second nap in in the afternoon and the third nap falls by the wayside.
Dr Fallon (41:40)
Hmm. think that's
really good advice, Laura. think too, know, sleep needs are often dropping at around this age. So Grace, you can also have a think like, do I want to just trim a bit of day's sleep off or actually what I love to have bedtime slightly later or wake up slightly earlier. So you can either trim, if the sleep needs have dropped, you could trim it from the day or you can trim it from the night. and a lot of that would depend on like what you've said, Laura, you know,
Dr Laura (42:02)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (42:06)
Are they coping well on their naps that they've got at the moment? Or yeah, there's a few variables to think about there. Yeah, but it sounds like things are going really good, Grace. So well done. That's great.
Dr Laura (42:13)
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, we have got a few more questions to get through, haven't we better pick up the pace, Fallon. So we've had a question from Eleanor, who has a four month old who has a history of poor weight gain and poor sleep. They have begun co sleeping and the baby is breastfeeding to sleep. And since doing so their baby's sleep is improved.
She's having between 15 and 16 hours every day and her weight gain is now good. So Ellen although is a little bit concerned about the long-term practicalities of continuing to co-sleep and breastfeed to sleep. She wants to balance the benefits that they have of the co-sleeping with fostering independent sleep skills.
So she wants to know what guidance we might have on the best timing to begin working on cot settling and any recommendations that might be specific to babies that have had a history of poor weight gain.
Dr Fallon (43:24)
Wow. I feel like this could be an episode, answer to this question. So I'm going to try and get through it really quickly. And Eleanor, if you're struggling, please book a coaching call. Cause we could definitely do a bit of a deep dive together. Okay. So I'm thinking Eleanor's fear is that weight gain could drop off again if they go to cot settling. So first of all, I would say try to let go of that fear.
Dr Laura (43:27)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (43:47)
Often babies do have a little bit of trouble initially gaining weight. And then we see parents really intent on feeding, feeding, feeding, feeding, feeding, because they're terrified. But if they dare to dial that back a bit, the weight game will drop off. But usually it doesn't. So your baby's four months old now. Chances are she'll do fine if she's not sort of constantly breastfeeding during co-sleeping. Completely understand you're worried about the long-term practicality because not every parent wants to co-sleep and feed all the time during the night time.
Dr Laura (43:59)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (44:17)
and yeah, I think if you're wanting to move towards more independent sleep, that's obviously perfectly fine. And of course I've always got the SIDS guidelines in the back of my head. I want all the babies safe. So I definitely would be saying, look, if you're wanting more independent sleep and having her in a cot, go for it. You know, your baby's going to be safe and you can do it in a way that is incredibly supportive. I would say if you're wanting to keep a lot of closeness and take a very gentle approach,
Dr Laura (44:26)
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (44:43)
have your babies caught right beside your bed. You could be 20 centimeters away from your baby. You can have your hand through the side of their cot and be giving them constant hands-on support. I'd be thinking about something like maybe the slow fade approach where you can, while you're co-sleeping, introduce some new sleep associations that you also do once they're in their cot. know, a transition like that is not too hard for a baby to manage and at four months of age, they tend to manage it pretty well.
Dr Laura (44:48)
Yeah.
Mm.
you
Dr Fallon (45:11)
It might mean that you're not feeding your baby all the way to sleep anymore because you're putting them in the cot awake and then you're giving lots of padding and shushing to get them off to sleep. But you can still feed them multiple times per night. You know, you could decide, okay, I want to feed three times overnight, for example, have a bit of a sense of what time you're going to offer those feeds so that when your baby wakes, you kind of know, okay, this is a time when I'll feed or, no, it hasn't been very long. Actually, I'm just going to work on padding and shushing or whatever you're doing to get them back to sleep again.
Dr Laura (45:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (45:40)
So in terms of optimal timing, four months babies tend to adjust very quickly when we make these changes, as long as we're really consistent in how we do it. So when you decide what level of support you're going to give your baby, do it methodically consistently. You might have a couple of trickier settles while they're adapting and then they should be fine with it. And are there any sort of studies or recommendations specific to that?
Dr Laura (45:53)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (46:04)
Well, I can only really think of the studies that really show us that babies who settle in their cot needing a bit less hands on support tend to have longer stretches of sleep overnight. They don't call out for parent help quite so much. So I think you've got every reason to work on that independent settling if that's your goal, Eleanor. And I think you can do it in really very gentle, kind ways where you're just doing a very gradual transition that hopefully feels good for you, Eleanor.
Dr Laura (46:16)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (46:32)
and yeah, it's giving you a baby that little bit of support to say adjust. that's my tiny little most condensed version. could come up with Laura without doing a full podcast episode on this sort of thing. But have I, I? good.
Dr Laura (46:42)
And you did brilliantly. I don't have any. Yeah, I don't think there's anything
else to add other than what a lovely amount of sleep for your baby to be getting Eleanor. It's so rare that we see babies having that amount of sleep.
Dr Fallon (46:53)
Mmm.
Yeah. And look on that note, I'd say
to Eleanor, don't worry if that total sleep drops a lot when you work on independent settling. So the reason for that is that when babies are co-sleeping and breastfeeding, they often spend a lot of time dozing and they're not really getting into a full sleep cycle. They're just kind of like in that dozy kind of state. And we as parents tend to think of it as sleep when actually they might not be really getting into a sleep cycle. So that might drop off a bit, but it's not anything to be too worried about.
Dr Laura (47:11)
you
Yeah.
Awesome.
Dr Fallon (47:27)
Awesome.
All right. Well, we also have Angela who wrote in about her eight month old. Angela says they typically take two one hour naps at daycare followed by four and a half to five hours of awake time before bed and their baby sleeps 11 hours overnight. However, on some daycare days, the baby skips the first nap and instead takes one long nap from about 1130 to 2 PM. So two and a half hours total.
And Angela's asking, is this too early for their baby to transition to one nap and what should they do in this situation?
Dr Laura (48:01)
Yeah, Angela, eight months of age is really young to only be having one nap a day. No harm will have come to your baby on the days that they have had that one long nap. But what I would be looking at is trying to keep your baby on the two naps for the time being.
And I would be thinking about asking daycare to try to replicate at daycare what happens at home. So trying to stick to the two one hour naps at daycare. So when she goes down, he or she goes down for that first nap, asking daycare to not let it be a really long nap. So to wake your baby up after an hour so that they can fit in a second nap.
in the afternoon and that is just going to minimize those really long awake times that your baby is having otherwise. When babies are younger they tend to build their sleep pressure more quickly during the day which is why they have they need to have a few naps across the day. As they get older the sleep pressure starts to build more slowly and therefore they need fewer naps but at eight months of age really
it would be very unusual for a baby to just be on the one nap. And I would be thinking that you're, if you try to do that consistently, Angela, at this age, your baby's just going to become really, really grumpy because their sleep pressure is just going to be, it's going to hit, hit as high as it's going to get and then plateau for a long period of time in the evening, which is going to be really unpleasant for them and for you. So definitely.
Dr Fallon (49:35)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (49:48)
try to just do the two naps schedule. If daycare have a policy where they won't wake your baby up so that they do end up having a long nap at daycare and daycare can't fit a second nap in, then think about just offering your baby a 20 minute nap in the car or the pram on the way home so that it's just at least a little bit of a nap to tide them over into bedtime.
Dr Fallon (50:17)
Yeah, sometimes even if it's just like a five minute dose in the car, not even anywhere near a full sleep cycle, it just takes the edge off that sleep pressure. Yeah. And helps them get through to bedtime. I think that's really good advice. And often when they start childcare, it just takes them a few months to get into a pattern there. So yeah, don't panic. It'll, it'll probably all come together. Angela.
Dr Laura (50:22)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah. Okay,
we have a question from Kelly. So she's on night six of the Supported Accelerated Approach and has successfully managed to wean off all feeds overnight, which is great. Their baby is stirring once or twice a night only needs a couple of intervals of patting to settle back to sleep. Well done, Kelly. That's great. So she feels that they're making great progress, but just have a few follow up
questions to refine their approach. I can probably just read these out and answer them as I go, if I learn I think. Yeah, so Kelly's first question is, if my baby is quiet in their cot, but not yet asleep, patting sometimes stimulates them and causes them to start crying again. So Kelly says, should we avoid patting in this situation? Yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (51:14)
Yeah, all right, we'll go one at a time.
Definitely avoid padding. This is one of the
number one mistakes that parents will make with that supported accelerated approach. Read the steps carefully because if you're at the end of any of the little intervals and they're calm or even if they're having a grizzle, but you know, they're okay. Don't reach over cause you're right, Kelly. It can just make them go, Oh, you're there. Oh, so you know, like what's going on now. And then they get right up. So definitely just wait. And when they wake overnight, don't rush over, just kind of wait and listen to them, see what they do.
Dr Laura (51:51)
Yes!
Dr Fallon (51:58)
give them that chance to have a go at doing the resettle. it sounds like Kelly's baby, you know, can self settle off to sleep.
Dr Laura (52:05)
Hmm. Yeah.
Kelly's next question is if my baby is just lying quietly in the cot, can I leave the room?
Dr Fallon (52:14)
Yeah, absolutely. At some point we've all got to do it. We've got to try leaving the room. So if they're happy in their cot, yeah, go for it. Wander out of the room and you know, they might get upset. You can just test it out, see how you go. But eventually babies are just like, I don't really care if you're or not, mum or dad, I'm fine here. So yeah, definitely give it a shot.
Dr Laura (52:30)
Yeah.
Which brings us on to the next question. Now I see all the answer to the next question. Kelly says, is it realistic to aim for putting my baby in the cot, patting once, saying my goodnight phrase and then leaving the room? Yes, it is. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (52:48)
Yeah, it is. think so many parents just don't believe it could ever happen. But really that's,
that's exactly what happens. All parents using the supported accelerated approach. provided sleep pressures nice and high and you're being, you know, really predictable, with how you're implementing the approach
you will get to a point where you put your baby down, do their pats say their phrase, their sleep pressure is high enough. They've fallen asleep in their cot so many times. They know what they're doing. You'll be able to wander out of the room and of course you'll keep an ear out, but then you'll just find that they just fall asleep without you there. And that's when, when they wake overnight and go, mom's not here or dad's not here. They don't care. They're not like, where did they go? my gosh, where are they? They're just like, man, that's fine. That's my usual, you know, I'm okay here.
and they resettle. So yes, totally realistic. And you're going to get there Kelly, because you're doing a brilliant job.
Dr Laura (53:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, well done. You're so close. I'd say you're pretty, pretty much there already. You just don't believe it because you've previously been feeding to sleep. You're probably thinking, is this really correct? And it is. So well done.
Dr Fallon (53:39)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And when
you stop reaching over to do the pats, when your baby doesn't really need it, like, yeah, there'll be a huge breakthrough. I reckon really quickly you'll find that you can just wander away and they're totally fine. That's the dream. Awesome. And finally, Lauren has a 20 month old who's recently started fighting bedtime for 30 minutes and waking 30 minutes earlier than normal in the morning.
Dr Laura (54:00)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (54:12)
They trimmed 10 to 15 minutes from the nap, so it's now 45 minutes, but this hasn't helped. They're wondering if this one hour drop in sleep needs is okay and if it's time to drop the nap, noting that he is still so young.
Dr Laura (54:28)
Yeah, 20 months old would be a very, very young to drop a nap. It's not unheard of, but it is incredibly young to do so. So what I would be suggesting is that we try some other things first. And what I'd be thinking about is that, I guess, in answer to your question is that one hour drop in sleep needs okay.
Yes, it can be okay. So like we have spoken about before, sometimes sleep needs do just decline ever so gradually. And so you hardly even notice it. And other times it's like a baby or a toddler is taking a giant step down, and everyone notices it and it seems to come out of nowhere. Both of those situations are perfectly normal. Just one is more startling than the other. And so Lauren, you're
probably just being startled by a one hour drop in sleep needs. And it's one hour because he's taking half an hour longer to fall asleep, and then he's waking up half an hour earlier. But perfectly normal. We expect sleep needs to drop. By the time your child starts school, they might have somewhere between nine and 11 hour sleep need across a 24 hour period. So it has to come down.
So what I would be thinking about is probably not trimming the nap any further and just think through what I said earlier in answer to one of the other questions about making sure that we're giving a child a whole sleep cycle if possible for their nap and not waking them mid cycle. Instead, I would just be saying, you know what, it's an hour less sleep need, let's just move bedtime.
to that, I think it was eight in the longer email, Lauren, he said 830 is when he's falling asleep, and then he's waking up at 630. So let's just say that that's it. It's 830 till 630. He's having 10 hours overnight. If you would prefer a little bit of an earlier bedtime, then it's eight until six. You know, this is the cards you've been dealt. If he's mainly functioning well, really happy. It's just a drop in sleep, knees acceptable at this point.
Dr Fallon (56:32)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (56:43)
And so then we just look at taking away the bedtime battle and just putting him to bed a bit later and then waking him at an earlier time, know, maybe 7am is just, it is not on the cards anymore at this point in time. And accepting that and starting the day consistently a little bit earlier, every single day is just going to help that daily rhythm become more predictable.
Dr Fallon (56:59)
you
Yeah, hopefully Lauren's not sobbing into her coffee at that news. But I often say to parents, know, when they do eventually drop that day nap, often the nights get longer. So you've got that to look forward to, that often that is the case. Thank you so much to all the parents who sent in questions. And I want to say a massive thanks to Katie, who bought us four coffees last week. And I want to read out what Katie wrote, because it was really lovely. She said, apologies for the long message, but I really wanted to thank you for the incredible work you both do.
Dr Laura (57:11)
yes!
Yeah.
Aww.
Dr Fallon (57:38)
If the budget would allow I would buy you a coffee every day. She says, I stumbled across your podcast in my search for parenting podcast during pregnancy. My daughter is currently three and a half months old and I've since listened to every episode and I'm making my way through the four to 12 months Sombel program. Even though we have been incredibly blessed to have a baby who has so far not really had any sleep issues, aside from those early newborn days. She says,
Dr Laura (58:03)
you
Dr Fallon (58:04)
Your program has provided me with amazing foundations to feel more confident in dealing with any challenges that may come up or at least a space where I can confidently go to seek advice. I'm one of the lucky ones who came across your podcast earlier and because of this, I make sure I tell all my new mum friends and anyone else I know struggling with sleep. Without it, I know I would have found myself going down the rabbit hole of well-intentioned but often poorly researched advice during my sleep deprived late night feeds.
I hope this message, this essay of a message, says, in some way conveys just a small amount of how thankful I am for the work you're doing in supporting parents on this wild journey. Isn't that lovely? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (58:43)
gosh, it almost brings a tear to my eye. It's so wonderful. Thank you for taking the time, Katie, to write such a heartfelt message. This is why
Fallon and I do this work. We love supporting young families, parents who are just embarking on their parenting journey. And we love bringing the science to you.
Dr Fallon (59:07)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (59:10)
So it really is music to our ears when we hear it's going well. It is!
Dr Fallon (59:13)
Yes, it's like a soothing balm, isn't it? After we do
see the nonsense online and think, my God, these poor parents. then to get Katie's message, it kind of feels like we managed to rescue one before they fell in the fire. It's like we've prevented that horrible spiral that can happen, you know, when you have your first tricky night and you start looking online and then it all starts to unravel.
Dr Laura (59:26)
Yes!
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (59:37)
So no, thank you so much, Katie, for the coffees that you bought us and also for the beautiful words, because we need that. my gosh, this work can be pretty punishing. I do think we should do a podcast episode of Words Like Working in this Field one day. One day we will. But yeah, is words like that that keep us going. So thank you so much, Katie. If you're listening and would like to buy us a coffee, we would absolutely love that.
Dr Laura (59:37)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
my god, yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:00:02)
There's a link in the show notes or just go to buymeacoffee.com forward slash infant dot sleep. Yeah. And a huge thank you to all of our listeners who have left us beautiful reviews, who subscribed to the podcast. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button. And of course, if you're needing support, you can join Sombel. It's full of amazing resources. And if you find yourself stuck, you're not left high and dry. You can book a coaching call with me.
Usually the wait's only about a week or so and we can have a really good deep dive together. Often parents say, it feels like I'm in my very own personalized podcast episode. And that's what it's like. You'll see the same background and everything, which I think freaks out a few parents. But yeah, we can totally do that deep dive together and just make sure you've got everything in place to have an awesome little sleep up. So thanks everyone for listening in and you'll hear from us again next week.
Dr Laura (1:00:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
