Dr Fallon (00:00)
There is nothing better than those sweet baby cuddles when your little one naps, but at some point you might find yourself wishing you could have your arms back. You're not alone. Contact naps can be precious, but they might not feel sustainable, especially if you've got other children, your own sensory challenges, or you simply want to use the bathroom alone.
Today we're sharing three easy steps to help you nail the switch from contact naps to cot naps using a low stress, highly adaptable approach. Plus we'll answer your burning sleep questions.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us.
I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. We are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, did you do a lot of contact naps when your children were little?
Dr Laura (01:00)
Gosh, yes, I think that I did particularly my second baby because he had reflux and I had to do a lot of keeping him upright. And then when he was really small, that meant that oftentimes if the feeds were close to the naps as they can be when they're really little, he ended up having naps on me. What about you?
Dr Fallon (01:07)
you
Yeah, yeah, definitely with all of mine, there was a bit of contact napping, especially in those first sort of weeks and probably the first few months. I have the most adorable photo that I took one day when my daughter was sound asleep on me. It's sort of that view looking down from my perspective on her just lying there so precious and, and sleepy and milk drunk. And my gosh, those cuddles really are amazing. I think that there's a lot of things in parenting I'm like,
Dr Laura (01:30)
Hmm.
Yes
gorgeous.
Dr Fallon (01:54)
I'm done. That's cool. I'm finished with that phase. I don't need to do that again. But I'll tell you what, if I could go back in time and have another snuggle with them as those tiny little babies, what I would give.
Dr Laura (01:57)
Ha ha ha!
Yes. Yeah, apparently that's
one of the things that, know, if they're asking people towards the end of their lives, particularly women towards the end of their lives, what is there a moment that you would go back to having again? What would it be? And often it is those snuggles with their babies when they were really little, having a little contact net with their babies, because it is so precious and it is so fleeting.
Dr Fallon (02:20)
Yeah.
It is. And I was thinking about this the other day and thinking, I'm not going to look back and go, if only I could have that day when I took them all to the zoo together. it's not even that it's just, just an ordinary day when we're at home and you're snuggling on the cat. Like they are the really, yeah, the really precious things. yeah. So contact naps are amazing. And I think it is such a personal decision for when you're, you try to move away from them. So.
Dr Laura (02:40)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (02:54)
there will definitely be parents who don't ever want to contact NAP and that's completely fine. That's totally your choice. And especially if you've got multiples or just multiple children, like contact NAPs are pretty tricky because you kind of need your hands free a lot of the time. That's totally fine. And then there'll be parents who want to contact NAP for as long as possible. And they're really, really happy to do that. And of course that's completely fine as well.
Dr Laura (02:58)
Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (03:20)
I think what we were thinking with today's episode was really talking about what can you do if you sort of are going, okay, contact maps are wearing a little thin. Like I like them sometimes, but I recognize that now I'm kind of feeling more ready to have some naps happening in the cot. I think a lot of parents will get to that point at some point, but I also think a lot of parents are terrified.
Dr Laura (03:30)
He
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (03:44)
At that point, there will be some who just like, no, I'm good. You're going in the cot. you know, they're fine. They'll be right. You know, they're just like, it'll be fine. And then there are parents who are like, my God, they're going to cry. What if they don't like it? What am I going to do? How do I do this? So we just kind of wanted to break it into simple steps for parents who are feeling really nervous.
Dr Laura (03:44)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, and there will be those parents who think, yeah, this is going to be great. And then their baby goes, no, it's not. And then they're taken by surprise that you try and put pop them down and they're caught or bass a bit and they're having none of it. And then those parents are really shocked and going, my goodness, I didn't expect this to be the case. What do I do now?
Dr Fallon (04:09)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
it's often just so much harder than parents think it will be. And I think what I really love to think about in the work we do is sleep and settling is trying to just throw aside whatever society might expect of us and actually just break things down into manageable chunks. Because when we can break down a process like moving a baby into the cot for their naps,
Dr Laura (04:26)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (04:47)
When we can break that down into little tiny chunks that hopefully feel manageable for a parent. It doesn't matter if some parents are like, that's too easy. I'm going to skip three steps ahead. That's fine. You've totally got that option as well. but there are parents who will really struggle even with tiny little steps. And I think we need to cater for that. We can't keep ignoring those parents who are going to have a lot of, we kind of just keep saying, and I know some people would just keep saying, just put them in their cot.
Dr Laura (04:56)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (05:15)
Just put them in their car. They'll be fine. You'll be right. Just walk away for 20 minutes. know, it just doesn't work for some families.
Dr Laura (05:19)
Yeah. No, it doesn't work. they're
those people who are saying just put them down and walk away and not the people who are in a house with a baby that is really escalated and really upset and crying, potentially by themselves. Not the baby, but the mom or the dad by themselves at home, they might have lived a really full active life before having a baby now that at home with a baby, don't feel like they can leave the house easily.
Dr Fallon (05:32)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (05:49)
and they're trying to let their baby have some sleep so that they can have their hands free and those cries can ricochet off those walls. And those naysayers who are just saying, just do it. They're not there in the room with you whilst you're in that moment of hell. And they're not there helping. So let's give those parents some steps to help them get out of that trench that they're in.
Dr Fallon (05:58)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely. So what we've done is we've come up with a bit of a three step method. And this is specifically for those parents who are feeling very nervous about making that change from contact naps, which is very different for a baby, a contact nap compared to sleeping in their cot. It does feel really different. So we wanted to come up with three steps that kind of provides a bit of scaffolding and structure that's going to help your baby adjust to that change in a gradual kind of way.
Dr Laura (06:35)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (06:47)
But
what's really important to know is with these steps, what we're going to talk you through so you can go and try them out yourself. These are steps that require you to be present with your baby and awake for the duration of the nap. So if you have your hands full and you can't be in the room keeping an on them, then this is not the approach for you. It will require that you stay present. And of course, if you're listening and you think, my gosh, that is way too slow. Like there's no way. That's fine. It's not for you. It's totally fine.
Dr Laura (06:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:16)
You could skiv ahead much quicker. Anyway, so let's start with step one, I think, which is what we sort of refer to as the smell and presence phase, which is settling on a cot mattress on the floor. So this is going to sound a little strange. think a lot of parents would be going, what the heck? do mean a cot mattress on the floor? This can be a bit of a game changer. Don't you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (07:31)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so you'll be doing this in the baby's bedroom and taking the mattress out of their cot and putting it beside the cot on the floor. If you happen to have a second cot mattress, you put that beside their cot. And what this step really is working towards is helping your baby adjust to that feeling of pressure along their back whilst they're falling asleep, but with lots and lots of cuddles and support.
So for them, they're going from lying on you to then lying on the mattress, which feels very, very different. And they're going to be lying on their back as opposed to often with contact naps. They might be in a carrier or they might just be lying on their tummies on your chest. So it's going to be a whole different sensory experience for them.
Dr Fallon (08:15)
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. So what you're to do is after you put the cot mattress on the nursery floor, this is a little extra hack that I think can be really handy. What you want to do is lightly spray it with your perfume or your deodorant, or, know, if you've got like a, you know, clothes you've been wearing for the last day or so, you can even just kind of rub those on the mattress. It's going to make it smell familiar, really familiar. So when you're cuddling your baby for a contact nap, you have a smell about you. could be the moisturizer you use or the deodorant.
Dr Laura (08:50)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (09:00)
whatever that is that's familiar, spray a little bit around on the sheet that's on their cot mattress. We're just helping it feel as familiar as possible. And then when you go to settle your baby, you're to put them down on that cot mattress, but you are also going to lie down with them or you might sit beside them. But the key here is that the aim is for your baby to fall asleep on their back on their cot mattress, but with you doing whatever you need to do to help them fall asleep.
Dr Laura (09:16)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:27)
You can be cuddling them. could be patting, shushing, singing, anything you want to do to help them get to sleep. So it's super, super supportive. Um, and it's that magic combo of it smells familiar. Mom or dad is still really close by and they're starting to learn, know, I'm safe here. Even though I'm not in my parents arms, I'm safe and they're here and everything's okay. Um, so that
Dr Laura (09:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (09:53)
It's just a lovely sort of first step. kind of, you're part of moving to that cot space. because yeah, if the mattress is in the cot, you can't exactly climb in there. Although the plenty of parents have before definitely have been a few who have, you have to be very tiny to fit, but some do.
Dr Laura (09:59)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, you do and
quite dexterous to get your legs over and yes, anyway. think a pro tip for this step of the process is to warm that spot that you're going to pop your baby down on ever so slightly, just so that it feels nice and warm and it's not such a shock for your baby going down onto a cold mattress.
Dr Fallon (10:17)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (10:37)
And then you can lie, as I said, can lie right alongside them so that they're still feeling your body heat as well.
Dr Fallon (10:37)
Yes.
Yeah, yep. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's really key is that we will never ever say co-sleep with your baby or bed share with your baby, baby, because that does increase risk for accidents. So I want to be really super clear that that's not what we're suggesting. We're suggesting you stay awake and that you supervise your baby in that space. Obviously keep the cock clear of anything that is dangerous. And this is just for naps. You're just practicing this for nap time.
Dr Laura (11:11)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (11:11)
So yeah, if you're feeling like, I'm too sleepy, I'll fall asleep. It's not the approach for you because you do need to be able to, to supervise. So that's kind of step one wrapped up in a nutshell, isn't it? Yeah. So step two is where, you know, and this might take you a few days or a few practices before you're ready to move to it. But step two is where you're going to start to reduce the hands on support that you're giving your baby. So if you've been giving them like really big cuddles and they're very much entangled with you.
Dr Laura (11:15)
No.
Yeah, that's right. Hmm. Yeah, it is.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (11:40)
you might decide, okay, I'm just going to lie slightly further apart from them and do a bit more of a, maybe it's, it's padding and shushing rather than cuddling. Or if you've been padding and shushing without cuddles, maybe you're just starting to reduce the, the padding a little bit. but you're aiming to get to a point, where, know, you're still, still present, but you've just got that little bit of distance and then mostly just having some padding and some shushing to drift off to sleep there.
Dr Laura (11:55)
Hmm.
Yeah, and you're still right there
with them. They can still feel you, they can still hear you as you're doing your humming. We call it the pattern hum phase. they're still feeling very safe. But what we're teaching them is that you are safe, even when I'm not holding you, but I'm right here still with you. You're still there on the mattress.
Dr Fallon (12:20)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (12:35)
mattress with them or just lying alongside the cot mattress and you're just giving that little bit more space so that they're beginning to be a little bit more comfortable feeling what that mattress is like on their back with a little bit of distance between you and them.
Dr Fallon (12:53)
Yeah, yeah. And it's such a gentle approach. If your baby starts to really fuss and cry, just ramp up that support a little bit. Show them that, it's fine. I'm still here. Everything's okay. Usually after a few practices, you'll find that they've adjusted. Parents often say, it kind of clicked. They would just put them down and they were like, yeah, I'm good. I can go to sleep here. And that's when parents kind of know, okay, they've adjusted to that step.
Dr Laura (13:13)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:17)
And then the third step is the one that think parents fear the most, but you've got to think you've done a lot of work towards this point, but it's where you're going to actually put them in the cot. So when they're ready for sleep, you're not going to get them too drowsy in your arms. You're going to pop them into the cot. You're going to give them the same comfort. So they're still going to have your padding and your humming or your shushing, but they're actually in their cot now. The mattress is in the cot and they are on the mattress.
Dr Laura (13:17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (13:41)
so you've done all this lovely lead up to that point where they've actually really been, practicing, you know, falling asleep with this different type of support. It's a lovely way to kind of introduce them to that different, settling space.
Dr Laura (13:56)
And Falon, I think it can be helpful for parents to hear that they don't have to do this at every nap either. They can just pick one nap a day that they start using this approach for. And it might be whichever nap your baby normally falls asleep most quickly for. That might be the one that you choose often. That's the first one in the morning, but it can depend on your baby.
Dr Fallon (14:05)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (14:22)
And then as your baby gets used to falling asleep on the mattress for that nap, then you could start, as your confidence grows and their experience of that feeling of falling asleep with the mattress under them grows as well, you can start to add in other naps in the day as well.
Dr Fallon (14:42)
Yeah. And I think that's really key is you've got to think about your individual babies. So some parents will say, look, we've gotten to a point where we do the first nap of the day in the cot. and that's all we're going to do. The other naps are on the go. It's working beautifully. All fine. And then some parents will say, well, they fall asleep in their cot, but we're getting so much fussing because they, don't understand. They don't seem to get that they, this is the cot nap. They're wondering, if I fuss a lot, am I going to, you know, get held instead?
Dr Laura (14:55)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (15:10)
Some parents will then go, look, I'm to go all in with the cot naps, you know, just so that they start to build up that predictability and your baby's not going to get all cranky thinking, why am I in my cot when other times I'm falling asleep in your arms? Some parents will find that it's better just to be really consistent, but it's very variable depending on your baby and also the age of your baby as well. But once they are used to falling asleep in their cot with that padding and humming, it's pretty simple to phase that out. And obviously you can do that as fast or as slow as you want to.
Dr Laura (15:13)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (15:40)
A lot of parents will phase out the padding first, so they're still humming or shushing. It might be that you pat 10 times and then you wait 10 seconds and you're gradually reducing the number of pats. And then once you're down to just humming or shushing, it's as simple as just wandering in and out of the room while you're humming and shushing and they're getting used to that volume of it just being a little bit less. But typically you'll pretty quickly get to a point where you pop them down. You say goodnight, you wander away and they just...
Dr Laura (15:44)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (16:08)
They're fine. You you've given them all of this wonderful preparation for that moment. And hopefully it all will go well.
Dr Laura (16:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, and then you can have your hands free for that nap and you can go to the bathroom by yourself. You can take a shower, you can make yourself a cup of tea. You could, yeah.
Dr Fallon (16:18)
Yay!
Yeah.
it's so freeing. Isn't it? I still
remember, I wish I could remember their name. I don't know if she'll still be listening to the podcast, but someone in the early days had emailed us saying, I'm writing this to you from the couch with my cup of tea because my baby has just fallen asleep in their cot. And I remember reading that and just being like, yes, because as parents, you know, we need our own time as well. And if you are feeling like you're kind of done with the contact maps or you want to reduce them, it's.
Dr Laura (16:43)
I remember.
Dr Fallon (16:53)
totally valid. You've got to look after yourself and you deserve to have time to yourself. It's not a selfish thing to want at all. In fact, it's really important for your wellbeing that you get that time. So let's go. Yeah. No, that's all right. I was just going to say we've got a few kind of pro tips that we want you to be thinking about and some pitfalls to be on the watch out for as well.
Dr Laura (17:04)
Yeah, do you know what I've been... sorry. No, you go ahead. Let's keep going because I'll...
Mm.
Dr Fallon (17:19)
And I think probably top of my mind with this one is to really make sure that when you do start those steps, you're doing it when your baby is showing several tired signs. If you go in too early at the first little grimace or jerky arm movement, it might be that you have to spend a long time trying to settle them and that can feel exhausting. Wait until they're showing you a good collection of tired signs. So you're really confident that that sleep drive is starting to build up and it might help you have an easier time of things.
Dr Laura (17:46)
Mmm.
Yeah, I think also, if you're feeling that you're not quite ready to do these steps, always know that you can do naps in the pram as a good kind of halfway point between naps in your arms and naps in the cot. Your baby will learn it's okay to fall asleep with pressure along their back whilst they're in the pram as well. So if it does feel too much, just pick one of the naps, the easiest nap of the day and perhaps do a
Dr Fallon (18:01)
Yes.
Mmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (18:18)
nap first before you start to use these steps.
Dr Fallon (18:23)
I love that hack. think it is such a good one. It's just a great little bridging sort of thing to do to ease the way. I'd also say too, with this approach, only do it if you can stay awake. And I know we've sort of already mentioned it, but it's so important to monitor your baby. For little babies, a roll off a cot mattress that's on the floor, even though it's close to the floor, still not going to feel nice. We, you know, I'm so invested in keeping babies safe with their sleep.
Dr Laura (18:26)
Mm.
Hmm.
Mm-mm.
Dr Fallon (18:52)
don't think, I'm going to start sleeping on the cot mattress all night beside them. That's ridiculous. You're not going to sleep well. They're probably not going to sleep well either. And they need to be in their cot overnight. So I would be persisting with the cot settling overnight in those cases. Or, you know, if you're still using a bassinet beside the bed, that's fine too. A baby might have two different places of sleep day and night. And that's okay in the early days. So yeah, just always be thinking about safety, monitoring them when they're...
Dr Laura (18:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (19:21)
doing that first bit of practice on the floor mattress.
Dr Laura (19:25)
Yeah. And for cases where, you know, your baby is really very upset when you're trying to keep progressing through these steps, just return to the last step that they tolerated. So, you know, if you've tried to move on to putting the mattress back into the cot and you're trying to do some, settling whilst they're in the cot and they're just becoming very, very upset and it's feeling a bit hard for you, then it's okay to...
and take a step back, put the cot back on the floor and do go back to that step if that was the last one that they tolerated. But equally, think Fallon, if you're finding that your baby is just absolutely fine, loving going to sleep on their cot mattress when you're on step one, you can just start go, you can move on to step two pretty quickly and step three. So you can go through them quickly as well as your baby and you get used to this new sleep.
Dr Fallon (20:01)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (20:23)
space.
Dr Fallon (20:24)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important. And Libby parents who say, no, my baby really hates now that I've moved the mattress to the cot, they're not loving it, but too bad. I need to push through with this because I'm not coping with that. The prior steps. don't want to stay on those steps forever. And I know my baby's fine. We're going to push through a couple of tricky settles with lots of support, but I know that they're going to get through it and that's okay too. So it's
Dr Laura (20:40)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (20:47)
You know, probably to some degree, we're probably infuriating to some parents who are like, no, just give me, just tell me the exact thing to do. But the reality is that your baby is going to be different from every other baby and actually thinking about how your child's responding and what your goals are. yeah, super important. So if you follow our three steps from contact naps to cot settling.
Dr Laura (21:03)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (21:11)
Tag us on Instagram, we would love to see your progress. We definitely would love to see cute photos of babies sound asleep. Love the baby photos. But we also love cheering you on. So we would love to see your journey if you do try out these steps or if you're working through song battle as well, tag us, we'd love to see how you're getting on with things. So I really hope those steps help. I think those steps are really lovely for the ones who are feeling very, very nervous about making changes.
Dr Laura (21:17)
Yes. Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (21:40)
and who just need something slower and probably have felt a little starved of a slow, you know, scaffolded sort of approach. So yeah, let us know what you think and we'd love to hear how you're going.
Dr Laura (21:48)
Yeah.
Yeah, excellent. So shall we go on to our parent questions now, Fallon? Yeah. Yeah, so Angela has a toddler who has just turned two and she also has a nine month old. So very busy time of life, Angela. Angela says that both of her children are sleeping through the night in separate rooms. They are expecting a third baby in December and are going to have three under three.
Dr Fallon (21:56)
Yeah, let's dive in. Do you want to start with Angela?
Awesome. Love it. Chaos, it's got to be a house full of love. That's fantastic.
Dr Laura (22:22)
Yeah.
Yeah,
so Angela likes the idea of room sharing for the kids and would prefer to keep the fourth bedroom as a guest space due to their partner's loud snoring. So Angela has a couple of questions. So her first question is, when is the ideal time to transition their toddler to a bed? They're considering around two years and eight months, which is about two months before the baby is due.
Dr Fallon (22:38)
You
Dr Laura (22:57)
Do you want to answer that first and then I'll read out the second one?
Dr Fallon (23:00)
Yeah, all right. We'll dive into this one. First of all, I can't, I have to first say if your partner's got really loud snoring, that's not normal. So go and tell them to get an assessment done. Because you might find that you need that fourth bedroom, but also it's not great for your health if you're snoring and it's really loud. So tell him to go to his GP, get an assessment done for that. Because when snoring resolves, it is life changing and your partner deserves that too. So that aside.
Dr Laura (23:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:29)
the idea of time for transitioning a toddler to a bed is as late as possible. When a new baby arrives on the scene, your eldest is probably going to feel a little put out by that because there will be a big shift in the house. And it might, it will almost certainly mean that they're going to want more of you at bedtime and potentially more of you overnight. And if they can run around the house and find you, then you're dealing with newborn sleep, which is challenging, plus a toddler who's now running around the house in the night.
Dr Laura (23:34)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (23:59)
I don't want to scare you, but I would say if you can often parents are wanting the cot for the new baby. If that's part of the equation, look for a really cheap one, a secondhand one, borrow one from a friend. I would keep them in a cot as long as you can so that in from your, eldest perspective, things are staying as predictable as possible throughout, you know, this other big change that's going on. so that, yeah, that would be my advice on that one. Would you say the same, Laura?
Dr Laura (24:12)
you
Hmm.
Yeah,
yeah, I would. mean, unless your toddler is climbing out of the cot, but they're still pretty young. So if they're not climbing out of the cot, no doubt they still fit the cot. Yeah, I'll just keep them in it because yeah, it's going to be a busy time with three under three. You can pick up. yeah.
Dr Fallon (24:30)
Mm.
And we so often, yeah, we
so often see in clinic, don't we, you know, the older toddlers who they've slept really well and then a sibling arrives and they're in a bed and the nights are horrendous. It can be, yeah, very tricky.
Dr Laura (24:56)
Yeah.
It
can be tricky, particularly when the toddlers are hearing mum or dad off in the night with the new baby, feeding them, they think, good, they're up. That must mean that I can get up and come and have a play. Yeah. And the parents are so tired, they give them Bluey to watch and then the toddler thinks every night, good, it must be time for Bluey. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (25:10)
Hmm
I wonder if I can watch Bluey at 2am? No, go back to bed. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, let's keep this going. Yeah.
Yep. So I hope that helps Angela.
Dr Laura (25:30)
Okay, and Angela's next question is when the new baby reaches four months of age, they plan to move them out of the parents bedroom and into a separate room like they did with the older two. Would it be better to move the second child who will be 22 months into the toddler's room to free up the nursery? Or should they put the new baby and the middle baby in together?
Dr Fallon (25:53)
Yeah, it's a really good question that I think will depend a lot on where the cards land. So if your toddler is in a bed, so you can't keep them in a cot, your eldest rather, if your eldest has moved into a bed, I would be tempted to have them in a room on their own, rather than them being able to run over to the cot and wake up the younger sibling. I would, yeah, so if the eldest is in the bed, I'd put the younger two in their cots in one room.
Dr Laura (26:15)
You
Dr Fallon (26:22)
together. Yep, your middle child sounds like they sleep beautifully through the night. And hopefully your little baby will as well. I think that's the way I would tend to work it. Whereas if the eldest is still in a cot and they're both sleeping through the night, I would put them both in the same room together. They should just keep sleeping through the night. And then if the little baby is waking up a bit overnight, no one's getting disturbed by that. So yeah, there's kind of two options there. I think it's going to depend on where the cards land and how they've managed. Yeah, with that new baby in the house.
Dr Laura (26:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
you
Yeah.
Yeah. And if one of your, you're soon to be middle child and the eldest child, if one of them is more of a lighter sleeper than the other, that might also influence your decision making. and so again, you won't really know too much until the new baby arrives to how much the crying and noise of the little baby affect the old two. but you will quickly learn and then you'll work out, if there is one that would pair better.
Dr Fallon (27:01)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (27:19)
with the baby.
Dr Fallon (27:20)
Mmm, yeah,
well done, Angela. You're doing a fantastic job. Love that you've got sleep, sort of, for the older two before the next little one arrives. How exciting. It's brilliant. So Karen wrote in, she's asking for advice on managing parent anxiety around sleep. This is a really interesting question. She says, although her toddler has been sleeping through the night for some time and they feel confident in his schedule and his sleep needs, she still tracks his sleep very closely, often down to the minute.
Dr Laura (27:29)
Yeah.
Hmm. Hmm.
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (27:50)
Karen
recognises that this tracking gives her a sense of control more than useful insight and wonders how to let go of that need for control. So she reflects that the rough nights in his early months have had a lasting impact on her and is looking for some support or advice on how to move forward.
Dr Laura (27:55)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Oh gosh, this is an interesting one. Hmm. Okay. So your toddler is sleeping through the night now and you fully understand his sleep needs. I guess what I would be looking to do is maybe do a little bit of challenging of your thoughts, Karen, about why you feel like you still need to track his sleep closely.
Is it that, you feeling that if you stop tracking his sleep, that it might in some way influence how his sleep is going to look overnight? we know that obviously your baby has no idea that, sorry, your toddler has no idea that you are tracking his sleep. and whether you track it or not, isn't going to change, his sleep. And if his sleep is going to worsen, it's not going to be.
due to whether you're tracking it or not. And if it does start to go off the boil a little bit, starts to wake overnight, you can very quickly just pick the diary up and start to log it again. And then you might be able to log it for a week. And in that week, you could see actually it was just a bit of a rough patch and or he had a tooth coming through or there was some other big change or it's coming down with a virus. And that's what
Dr Fallon (29:19)
you
Dr Laura (29:35)
was actually behind the sleep going wobbly and then it's back on track. And then you don't need to log it anymore. But if actually there hasn't been any big change that you could explain the sleep going wobbly, then you can dive back into Somme Bell and have a look at, know, depending on what it is that's going wrong.
Dr Fallon (29:43)
you
Dr Laura (29:59)
If you're toddler asleep, read the appropriate module about, you know, if it's overnight wakes that are happening or early rising, and then do some problem solving about how to get back on top of that. Or you could also make a coaching call and we can talk you through what steps you might need to take. Yeah, do you have anything to add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (30:16)
Hmm.
only that I'd be thinking that, you know, you're a Sombelle member, so you've got support. If something goes wrong, we're here, we're going to help you get back on track. It's going to be okay. I think, I think Karen knows that though. I think what I'd be trying to do, Karen is think of a time. So maybe if your toddler still has a day nap, for example, maybe say, okay, today I'm not going to track that day nap.
And I'm going to just see how I go with just not tracking that nap. And you might get through it and go, I'm fine. It's fine. didn't really matter. Yep. There's a gap in the diary. sorry. My dog just decided to shake. So he's just providing a little bit of music with his jangly collar. but yeah, you might just go, okay, that's cool. I'm fine. I didn't track that nap. The world didn't end. I'm feeling okay. I'm not super anxious about it. I'm actually all right. But if you do that little test and you feel.
Dr Laura (31:03)
Ha ha ha.
Dr Fallon (31:17)
really, really anxious and it really bothers you. I think it's a really good sign to get, go to your GP, um, find out what supports are around. It might be time to get a mental health care plan, to speak to a psychologist about your anxiety because anxiety is so common in mums in particular. We are juggling so much. We're trying to keep all of the, you know, the balls in the air. We're doing the juggling act. Um, anxiety is really, really common. And I think if you feel like it's something that's constantly tripping you up.
just get the support, get the support, you'll have the skills, you'll move past it and you'll feel a hell of a lot better for it. but maybe just start with that test of maybe not tracking that nap or not tracking one night and then going, yeah, you're probably going to go, yeah, I can do this. It's fine. I'm good. But if not, it's a great sign that you know, some extra support could be a great idea.
Dr Laura (31:52)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's a really good tip, Fallon. So good luck, Karen. You've done a wonderful job helping your toddler sleep well. And now it's a case of taking care of yourself and your own mental wellbeing. So good luck with that. Okay. So now we have a question from Rhea and Rhea says her 15 month old goes down well for naps and at bedtime and seems genuinely tired, but he...
Dr Fallon (32:20)
Yes.
Dr Laura (32:34)
He or she wakes once every night screaming. He usually settles with a drink of water, but the wake-ups vary. Sometimes there's mild whining, other times hours of hysterical crying with repeated cycles of lying down and waking up again shortly after. that sounds hellish, Rhea. He can self-settle eventually, but some nights are particularly difficult.
Dr Fallon (32:57)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (33:03)
Rhea uses 10 minute check-ins, as staying in the room causes him to become playful. Whilst he's had molars coming through and receives pain relief on bad nights, she suspects separation anxiety is at play. And she's wondering, will he grow out of this? And is hoping for more consistent restful nights soon with our advice.
Dr Fallon (33:26)
it sounds really tough Ria. I think a lot of the things you've pointed out though, absolutely sound like there's a sleep pressure issue here. So the fact that he knows how to self settle, but in the middle of the night, he just isn't, he's waking, you know, falling back asleep, you know, over and over again. The fact that if you go into the room, he becomes playful. That's not a tired enough baby. It's a really good sign that the sleep drive isn't high enough.
Dr Laura (33:28)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (33:54)
and teething
might've played into this a little bit. separation anxiety could play into it a little bit, but look, the fact that he's normally self settling without needing you in the room, and is suddenly wakeful at night. I think you really got to take a close look at that daily rhythm, follow the unique sleep needs chapter. So look at, what his sleep diary is telling you work out what the unique sleep needs are. It might be that the day nap is too long, or if he's on two naps at 15 months, he should certainly be dropping to one nap.
Dr Laura (34:04)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (34:24)
just making sure that he's not overdoing it at any time of day or if bedtime and wake up time are varying a lot, you know, it can cause these sorts of difficulties. and the good news is after you've tracked his sleep for a few days and you've identified what changes you need to make, it's really likely that you'll have really fast progress because once you instill that new daily rhythm and the sleep pressure comes back up overnight, he knows how to self settle. So he'll probably just start doing it and he'll be back on track before you know it.
Dr Laura (34:24)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (34:52)
This is the power of really understanding unique sleep needs, isn't it? Because when you hit these hurdles, you can just go back to the sleep diary, figure out what they're sitting on at the moment with their sleep needs and cater to it. And then it comes back together again. Before he starts to wake up thinking, well, maybe I can play with mom or was that one time mom gave me a milk bottle or, know, and then they start to wake because they're motivated better to move early and get the sleep pressure problem sorted.
Dr Laura (35:04)
Yeah, yeah definitely.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, I think the only thing I would add is that maybe just have a think about whether you can supercharge some of those interactions with your toddler during the day with some special play. If your toddler is trying to do some connection seeking with you overnight, we want him to be having all of that connection seeking ticked off his list during the day. So yeah, just also have a think about that.
Dr Fallon (35:33)
Mmm.
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. So in the toddler program, use the search bar and look for special play. And there's a great resource sheet on how to do that. Also a good one for toddlers who are expecting new siblings. Definitely start with the special play. Keep it going when the new sibling arrives, because it's 10 minutes that you, we can't be a hundred percent engaged with our children all day long, especially with a newborn, but we can protect 10 minutes a day.
Dr Laura (35:58)
yeah.
Dr Fallon (36:11)
Even single parents will say, yeah, I can manage a 10 minute block where I'm just fully engaged in that interaction with my child. yeah, just think about that special play and carrying that through. think that's a really good idea. All right. And we have two Hollies have emailed in this week. So we're going to start with Holly T. Holly T. recently transitioned her two year old toddler to a floor bed after returning from a three week overseas trip.
Dr Laura (36:24)
Awesome!
Okay.
Dr Fallon (36:39)
where her two year old had been bed sharing with grandma. During the trip, her nap and bedtime routines were irregular and since returning, she's only slept through the night about 10 % of the time. Holly says her two year old now gets out of bed and comes into the parents room saying that she's all done with her bed. Holly believes sleep pressure isn't the issue as her toddler often settles quickly when bed sharing. Her toddler has been able to self settle since about eight months old.
Dr Laura (36:51)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (37:08)
So Holly's wondering whether the transition to a floor bed or the new found independence that she can now leave her bed at night is what's disrupting her sleep. And she's looking for advice on how to manage this new floor bed transition and prevent sort of habitual overnight wakeups and bed sharing from continuing.
Dr Laura (37:27)
Holly, I imagine it is a real shock to the system when your toddler used to sleep really well. And now after that trip overseas where they had a bit of a taster of what it's like to sleep with grandma is now thinking, that's nice. I'd quite like to do that in the night. So I agree that because your toddler is falling asleep pretty quickly when
she gets into bed with you probably isn't a sleep pressure issue. I suspect it's a strong preference that's coming out and that your toddler would much prefer to be in bed with somebody else and since your preference is for her to sleep in her floor bed it's absolutely appropriate for you to be insisting that your toddler spends the whole night in the floor bed.
Now only two, she is very little. So it's very hard for a very young toddler to understand why they need to stay in their bed overnight. And it's one of the reasons why in one of the earlier questions we were saying, well, keep your toddler in the cot for as long as possible.
you know, unless they grow out of it or they're climbing out of the cot. And Holly, perhaps that's something that that you experienced and you had to move her to the floor bed. So what we have to do now is think about what is going to be the best approach for you and your toddler to be able to stick to during the night. And there is a whole section in Somme Belle that's
dedicated to settling toddlers in a bed and there are five strategies there that are suggested and so have a good read through all of those strategies and think about which one is going to be best for your family and you can also look at the modifications to see how you can tailor these to your toddler as needed and then bite the bullet!
You know, get all your ducks in a row, make sure, you know, that you're from this point onwards, you're going to be returning her to her bed overnight in whichever of those approaches that you choose to use. And normally then with toddlers, when you're really a hundred percent consistent, they learn pretty quickly that bedtime is for sleeping in their bed, not in your bed.
Dr Fallon (39:43)
Yeah
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the beauty of the toddler program is that we have a whole chapter dedicated to cot settling strategies that you can tailor to your little one. But when they do get to that point where you have to move them to the bed.
one of our biggest chapters is the one around settling when they're in a bed, because it is so much more challenging when they can just take a little stroll around the house at 3 a.m. So don't forget, you know, if you've got that toddler program and you move them to a bed, there is a whole other world of advice in there that you can really draw on. it might feel trickier when they're able to wander around, but it's not impossible to get them sleeping well.
Dr Laura (40:25)
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (40:41)
as you well know Laura, cause you're now working with older children and teenagers even, and they can climb out a window in the middle of the night. So it's not impossible to make progress and make sure yet you're fully going through all of Sombelle and using, you know, adapting and using different strategies depending on what your child is needing. yeah, but yeah, let us know how you go. Holly T we would love to hear what strategy you choose and how that goes. And maybe you could tag us on Instagram if you're active on there.
Dr Laura (40:45)
You
Yes, I can!
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that'd be great. Okay, so moving on to Holly R. So Holly R has a six month old and has seen great sleep improvements since starting the Sombelle program. Over the past week, her baby's sleep has become inconsistent, however, with false starts, early wakes, split nights and short naps. dear, the changes coincided with the introduction of solids. But Holly suspects the real cause may be that
her baby is preparing to drop and nap. So Holly's baby used to sleep about 12 and a half hours a day with three 40 minute naps and then an overnight sleep from seven until six with one feed. And this has recently dropped to about 12 hours a day. So just half an hour. Holly has tried to stretch the wake windows to drop a nap, but she's finding that her baby is really struggling to stay awake.
often needing to sleep after only two hours awake and becoming upset if not settled. Efforts to keep him awake during feeds have also been challenging as he is a boob snoozer, which means he's falling asleep early in the feeds and resisting unlatching. This causes missed nap opportunities and difficulty maintaining sleep pressure. So Holly has resorted to car naps.
and pushing bedtime later by 20 minutes, which has helped nights but not naps. They're unsure whether to drop a nap, adjust night's sleep, or take another approach and are asking for advice on extending awake times and breaking that feed to sleep association. Hmm, there's a lot, yeah.
Dr Fallon (42:56)
There's a lot to unpack here, but I love,
I love this question. So first of all, the reason Holly is having these difficulties has so much to do with the fact that I'd say, yeah, sleep pressure dropped off a bit overnight at some point. Maybe the sleep needs have dropped off a bit. The nights became really tricky. So of course your baby is more tired and cranky in the daytime. They've kind had a terrible night and now they're really tired in the daytime. They're wanting to play catch up.
Dr Laura (43:18)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (43:23)
but if they play catch up and they do have the, the boobs snoozes, or, know, just having constant little catch up naps, then the next night's another disaster. Folk starts, you know, there's definitely some evidence there that sleep pressures low overnight with folk starts and, and all of that. so it's a bit of a horrible cycle where terrible night, very sleepy day, terrible night. And it just kind of keeps going. It is really, really tough, but we have to be really.
Dr Laura (43:28)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (43:53)
of a bit rigid for a few days and it might be good that we've got the long weekend coming up because so many families are having a bit more time around home and that can be really helpful. So what I want you to be thinking about is for starters you know he's six months old and he tends to catnap I would probably lean towards actually keeping potentially keeping the three naps for now because they are such short naps and pushing bedtime later so have a look at that 12 hour sleep need work out how you're going to break that up into
Dr Laura (43:58)
Hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (44:22)
12 hours of opportunity. But maybe it's worth keeping the third nap for now and just having a later bedtime for a while. In another two or three weeks, you might be like, no, he's really ready now. And you'll drop that third nap and maybe bedtime will come a little bit earlier again. With whichever of those paths you choose based on your work in that unique sleep needs chapter, you're just going to have to work really, really hard to avoid sleep when you don't want him to sleep.
Dr Laura (44:32)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (44:49)
Um, there's just no other way around it. I wish there was a magic trick, but it really does come down to, to break that cycle of oversleeping in the day and then having a terrible night. We've got to keep them really busy, really distracted. We need an extra set of hands to help us. Um, I love that Holly's doing some pram naps. So she's trying to kind of use the car or was it the car or the pram, um, whichever it was. She's using that as a tool to like get a good nap in to then soldier on with the day. So that is fantastic.
Dr Laura (45:09)
It was the car.
Dr Fallon (45:16)
but it might just take a few days, maybe three or four days of working really diligently to keep him awake when you need him awake and get him to sleep when he needs to sleep, to start to get that pattern where the day sleeps, not too much. Then the nights will improve and when the night improves, he's going to wake up more refreshed and he'll start to power through the day a bit more easily. but yeah, it's, you're stuck in the trench at the moment, but you can get out of it. It's just going to take that really concerted effort for a few days in a row to really make that happen.
Dr Laura (45:29)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (45:46)
And
then once you make that happen, then the other part of our question was stopping a feed to sleep association. Well, once you've got the daily rhythm figured out, if you want to stop feeding to sleep and use another settling approach, it's a lot easier once we know we've got that sleep pressure high enough.
Dr Laura (46:01)
Yeah. And if he's having those three 40 minute naps, that's roughly two hours of daytime sleep. He's got a 12 hour sleep needs. So then you're looking more at like 10 hours left overnight, plus a little bit extra for the feed that he's having. And so that will mean adjusting that overnight sleep that you're currently doing. And you may find that that last wake window before bedtime becomes the longest one.
Dr Fallon (46:22)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (46:28)
And when those false starts then stop, because the sleep pressure is a bit higher, then he's gonna, as Fallon says, he's gonna be feeling much more well rested the next day, because he's gonna be going into his deep restorative sleep earlier on in the night, rather than having all of those false starts before he gets there. And then that's gonna help him eventually, know, potentially combine two of those naps into one. So he might have one longish nap and then one shorter nap.
later on in the day and yeah then this will feel like a distant memory but it is a really horrible place to be Holly so my heart goes out to you but it doesn't last forever and yeah if your partner's home over this long weekend or you're able to get friends and family around to help thinking about distracting a tired baby with company with nature and with water so some water play during the day
letting, know, filling a tray with some water and holding your baby over it so he can splash with his feet in the water. You know, that might distract him for another five minutes, taking that into the garden to look at some, like feel some leaves between his fingers or to look at the birds in the tree, giving him to granny to hold. You all of these things are just going to help stretch him a little bit longer and stop him from having those cheeky little naps that would prefer him not to have.
Dr Fallon (47:52)
Yeah.
those are really great ideas. Love it. So good. Awesome. And lucky last, but this is a longer question. So this parent's name is Laura. What a lovely name. Total legend. Total legend. All right. So Laura is the parent of an almost eight month old baby and she's seeking advice on frequent night waking.
Dr Laura (48:04)
Okay.
shh! Hey lovely Laura!
Dr Fallon (48:19)
They've followed the Sombelle program and have had great progress with no longer feeding to sleep. They've been using the quick fade approach and maintaining a consistent 8pm bedtime with mornings beginning around 6.30am, although sometimes their baby does wake a little bit earlier. So Laura says, despite these efforts, the baby still wakes four to six times a night, often needing a very quick resettle. This has been going on for months and it's disrupting the family's sleep.
The baby's averaging about 11 and a half hours of total sleep per 24 hours and is a catnapper with naps usually lasting about 30 minutes, occasionally extending to 45 or 60 minutes. Attempts to cap the daytime sleep to an hour and a half total haven't worked consistently due to irregular nap and night sleep patterns. Sometimes the baby is so tired that the first nap happens earlier than they planned, making it hard to maintain a daytime routine.
Dr Laura (48:52)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (49:17)
So Laura is asking for guidance on how to balance nap length and timing, building appropriate sleep pressure and ultimately improving the night sleep consistency. Yeah, what are your thoughts on this one, Laura?
Dr Laura (49:30)
Okay.
well, yes. Again, it sounds like you're having a similar experience to Holly and you're a couple of months further on. So what's jumping out at me is that, so your baby has an 11 and a half hour sleep need and they're in bed, they're sleeping overnight for about 10 and a half hours. I think that works out as, which is really only leaving an hour left.
Dr Fallon (49:55)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (49:59)
in that budget, if you like, for daytime sleep. So the fact that they're having, you you're trying to cap it an hour and a half, then they're waking a lot overnight because they haven't got the enough budget, I think, to maintain their sleep for that full 10 and a half hours. So I would be thinking, we don't want to...
I don't want to offer your baby any less than an hour and a half, I don't think, because it sounds like they do need more daytime sleep. So I would be having a look at that wake up time, probably. You do mention that sometimes your baby's waking a bit earlier than 6.30 sometimes. I'd probably lean into that, to be honest. I'd be thinking maybe making bedtime more consistently 6 a.m. rather than trying to get to 6.30 and sometimes not being able to make it and sometimes making it.
because then once you have that really consistent wake up time in the morning, that's going to help the rest of the day fall into a more predictable daily rhythm. I think also, did you want to add something there, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (51:04)
Hmm.
Well, I was just thinking too, being eight months old, I would certainly say move to two naps if they haven't already. So if your baby has held onto three naps, definitely move to two naps. could be part of the problem at night. But I also think too, you know, with the description, often parents say, they're really quick resettles, but there's a lot of them. Like, and it's really tiring. What is it that your baby is expecting?
Dr Laura (51:16)
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (51:33)
Like I think this baby is waking up, something has changed and they're wanting the parent to come back and do something to get them back to sleep. And I think they mentioned, yeah, using the quick fade approach. If you're still present in the room when your baby falls asleep, it might be that they go through the sleep cycle, come up into light sleep, check is everything still the same and they're detecting that you're not in the room anymore. And then they're springing awake, crying out, needing you to come back in the room. And then they're really quickly back to sleep again. So.
Dr Laura (51:44)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (52:03)
have you, you know, try to phase out your presence. Cause if that is part of the equation, if you're in the room, if you're still padding or shushing or doing something when they fall asleep, it's definitely time to phase that out because it's causing them to wake up thinking, you know, where'd you go and get back in here. So I'd be thinking about that. And also just when they wake in the night, don't rush into them. Like really give them a moment, especially if they've got some self settling skills. Babies often, you know,
Dr Laura (52:12)
Hmm.
Hmm
Dr Fallon (52:32)
come up into light sleep, let out some noise and then go silent and fall back asleep. But a lot of parents, because they're wonderful parents, they're like, the baby's awake. They rush in there. But we actually interrupt them from having a go at falling back asleep. And I know they won't always put themselves back to sleep, but they do need lots and lots of opportunities to just have a go. And even if it doesn't work, doesn't matter. It's great practice. They've had a bit of a try at it.
Dr Laura (52:36)
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (52:57)
So I think I'd just, yeah, be thinking about that side of the settling. Is there something more we need to phase out? And just, yeah, it might be that you say, okay, I want to try and wait three minutes or five minutes, you know, when they wake overnight and see what they do. You might quickly find that with a bit of practice, they just sail right on through the night. Fingers crossed.
Dr Laura (53:01)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah,
definitely. I hope those tips help, Laura, so that, yeah, just adjusting that wake up time in the morning and moving to two naps if you haven't already. And yeah, just being a little bit less responsive to the crying overnight, like giving a little moment, giving a pause, just to give your little baby the opportunity to see if they can self-settle when they wake.
Dr Fallon (53:43)
Yeah, amazing.
Thank you to all the amazing parents who have written in this week with really interesting, great questions. And I hope that I think those three steps we talked through initially are really great in those first few months when you're feeling a little unsure about what to do with cot settling. So hopefully there's some new parents tuning in who get some comfort from those three steps.
Dr Laura (53:50)
Mmm.
Hmm
Dr Fallon (54:05)
And yeah, do let us know how you're going. We'd love for you guys to tag us on Instagram. Our handle is infant.sleep.australia. So do tag us if you want to share your journey. Thank you to those who've sent in video reviews. We've had two come through, but we really, really need more. So if you've been thinking, I could probably do that, please just do it for us. We'll be so, so, grateful. It's a really big, tremendous help for us. And it is a big help for parents who
Dr Laura (54:25)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (54:34)
are feeling absolutely bamboozled by conflicting information. It helps so much when they can hear another parent explain. They've been through it, they got through it, you know, and this is what helped. yeah. If you feel so inclined, we'd also love it if you bought us a coffee or maybe you could leave a review for the podcast. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. Come and follow us on social media. If you like what we're posting, please share it. It really does help us get the word out there.
Dr Laura (54:43)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (55:02)
to more parents who are looking for that sensible sleep advice. And of course, if you've been tuning in and you're having a lot of difficulties, maybe some of the stuff we've talked about today has resonated with you, go and check out the Sombelle programs because we are so invested in making those programs the absolute best they can be. We're coming up to doing another review of them soon where we'll be making more upgrades and changes because that's what we do. We want to make sure parents have exactly what they need.
Dr Laura (55:20)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (55:30)
to get through any sleep and settling difficulties they have. So on that note, we will leave you for a couple of weeks because next week we have Easter. We're going to take some time with our kids. I can hear my kids actually outside running around shouting right now and probably anyone listening has heard their little yelps. So it's probably time to wrap up this episode, I think, but have a safe and happy Easter to those who celebrate. And yeah, we'll be back in a couple of weeks.
Dr Laura (55:43)
You
Yeah!
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
