Dr Fallon (00:37)
It's the Holy grail, a magical schedule for your baby or toddler that if followed precisely will result in perfect sleep. I'm talking about those rigid age-based wake windows that are splashed across the internet, promising the solution to all your baby's sleep difficulties. But do they actually work? Well, mostly no, they don't.
And that's because the majority of age-based schedules aim for more sleep than is actually typical for your baby's age. And they also assume that all babies of the same age need the exact same thing. And that's a bit like assuming that all babies of the same age should be the same height or the same weight. It's unrealistic and not very helpful for tired parents.
In this episode, we unpack why following a rigid age-based wake window schedule can do more harm to sleep than good.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Paediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. We are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia.
Laura, I'm keen to know, did you follow a sort of rigid age-based schedule with any of your children?
Dr Laura (02:10)
No, I didn't. look, my children aren't they are still children. They're not yet adults. So back when they were babies and toddlers, which isn't that long ago, in the great scheme of things. This just wasn't a thing. And it just goes to show that, you know, for new parents today coming through, it feels like this is the way perhaps it's always been and this must be what you stick to. But just, you know, less than a generation ago,
Dr Fallon (02:14)
Yeah
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (02:39)
us parents, us mums and dads weren't trying to, we didn't even know the term wake window. It just wasn't a thing. Like what? You know, there was a well-thumbed book that used to get handed around in mother's group. But I think you mentioned earlier, you can often find that book in lots of op shops now. And that was really the only thing there was to follow when
Dr Fallon (02:45)
Yeah. β
Yeah
Hmm.
Dr Laura (03:03)
our
children were little and it wasn't really rammed down our throat. So we were just kind of left to our own devices, which wasn't great also. But β yeah, what about you Fallon? Because one of yours is a little bit younger than mine. So I'm curious to know whether you noticed any changes even between your eldest and your youngest.
Dr Fallon (03:13)
you
Yeah.
Oh, look, a tiny shift probably more from there being nothing about sleep online or on social media to being, you know, at least sleep was getting a mention by the time my eight year old was born. It's so weird to think that she's eight now. what do you mean she's eight? Eight weeks? Eight months? Yeah. It's wild. Um, yeah, it doesn't feel very long ago. Um, but yeah, this whole idea of like, here's the
Dr Laura (03:32)
Mm-hmm.
And now I still think of her as two.
Dr Fallon (03:46)
perfect wake window for your baby that's this exact age. And if you follow this wake window, you're going to avoid over tiredness or under tiredness and it's just, you know, sleep is going to be magical and beautiful. β it is such a new idea and God, makes me furious because it, it's so often is very unhelpful. And we certainly see some families in the clinic who are there because they were trying to follow this, you know, apparently good advice.
Dr Laura (03:59)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (04:13)
β
and had they just ignored that advice altogether, they might not have ever ended up in the clinic. Like if they had, you know, been able to just follow their baby's cues without all of this noise from the internet.
Dr Laura (04:18)
Yes.
Hmm. Yeah.
Look, I was thinking through what questions families might have about wake windows. And so I jotted down a few questions. thought maybe what we'd do today, Fallon, is I could ask you some of those questions. We can do like a quick fire round if you like. Yeah. So yeah, I'll just read out some questions. β yeah, this might be really useful for our listeners. So I guess Fallon,
Dr Fallon (04:43)
Love it. Yep. Let's do it.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (04:52)
Where did the idea of having a set schedule for a baby come from, do think?
Dr Fallon (04:58)
Yeah, I look, I think so much of this is driven by marketing teams, actually, you know, people who are trying to, you know, they might be selling appointments or selling products or, or whatever. When it comes to marketing, if you can sort of package something up as being like, here's the solution that's going to solve everything. Well, any tired parent is going to want to follow that account by whatever that account is offering.
Dr Laura (05:04)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (05:23)
You know, it, they make it sound so simple. Like it's this really easy solution. And I think that that's really what's driving it. That's why it didn't exist 10 years ago. And now it's just shoved down every parent's new throat is because when you publish something online that says, you know, he's the perfect schedule for babies of these particular ages. I mean, what tired parent wouldn't just be like, yeah, great. Brilliant. That, that must be the missing thing. The thing that I haven't managed to do yet. β of course you're going.
Dr Laura (05:27)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (05:52)
to think, yeah, I want that really simple, easy solution. Yeah.
Dr Laura (05:55)
Yeah, and if you can download that for 20 bucks, then
that might help you feel like you are chipping away at that problem. You're doing something, you've paid 20 bucks, you've got this tablet advice, and yeah, it might alleviate your concerns for a day or two before you realise it doesn't work.
Dr Fallon (06:08)
Mmm.
Yeah. But then
how many families do we see who say, I've spent so much money trying to fix my, my baby or my toddler's sleep problem because they've bought 50 different low cost items thinking, you know, cause they've been sold this idea. This is the thing that's going to fix it. This is the missing ingredient. But I would say to any parent listening, good quality advice isn't going to be available in a $20 downloadable.
Dr Laura (06:26)
β
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (06:48)
You, know, when you spend more, you should be getting more. And of course, always check qualifications and things like that. but yeah, don't, don't let a lot of money get soaked up by buying lots of low value items.
Dr Laura (06:52)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Alright so Fallon, why don't all babies of the same age do well on the same schedule?
Dr Fallon (07:11)
Well, it definitely comes down to their varying sleep needs, which we talk about quite a lot. Um, but I think, you know, if, if you've got some schedule that's like, you know, they've to go to bed at this time, they've got to wake up at this time, you know, they should be put down for a nap after this amount of time awake. There just is no flexibility that in that those schedules that allows for natural variation in sleep needs. So a good example is, you know, a four month old baby.
Dr Laura (07:16)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (07:36)
might need anywhere from 10 hours of sleep per 24 hours all the way through to seven hours, 17 hours of sleep per 24 hours. So that is a seven hour range of variability that just between babies of the same age. So yeah, if a schedule is really rigid and you know, often these schedules do aim for more sleep than is typical for a baby's age, then particularly the low sleep needs babies just do not fit into these schedules.
Dr Laura (08:02)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (08:05)
You know, it is like the analogy I was giving in β the introduction. It's a bit like saying, all babies need to be the same height and the same weight and just not allowing for that variability. If you only dress your baby in the clothes that are for that exact age and the average height and the average weight, you're going to have a lot of babies that don't fit in their clothes. They're too big or they're too small. And why would you do that? You know, why not cater to them?
Dr Laura (08:25)
Yes, yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about,
yeah, thinking about little babies just floating around drowning in these onesies, which with their arms flapping and their feet flapping because they just can't fill it and they're lost inside of a onesie that they should be fitting into and everyone. β yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:35)
Yeah.
Yes.
that reminds me of my little preemie when she was born. I had the cutest
little four zero onesie, but she was, she needed a six zero onesie, but I was trying to like, I was like, it might be okay. I'll roll up the sleeves. And, but she would just pull her legs up and her legs would just disappear out of the leg bits of the suit. So there'd just be these empty legs and her legs would be tucked up around her tummy. Anyway, that's an aside.
Dr Laura (09:06)
Yeah, and did it make her
grow, Fallon? Did it make her grow?
Dr Fallon (09:10)
Well, she did,
she did grow, but I don't think it was related to the clothes I was trying to dress her in.
Dr Laura (09:16)
No. So just because you try and put your
low sleep need baby into a rigid schedule that says that your child is going to have 15 hours of sleep, it is not going to work. yeah. So how about you talk through, talk us through Fallon, what the consequences are of sticking to an age-based schedule that doesn't fit for your child.
Dr Fallon (09:28)
Yeah.
Yeah, look, the consequences can be pretty bad. I think so many of the problems we see in the sleep clinic are basically driven by this. So if, for example, you're trying to put your down, your baby down for all your toddler down for a lot of naps that they don't need, or putting them down for naps too early, or, you know, aiming for a 12 hour window overnight when they don't actually need it. What you'll certainly see is a drop in sleep pressure. So there'll be periods of time overnight where they're just really wakeful.
Dr Laura (10:02)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (10:09)
It
might mean that they have big long split nights where they're awake for an hour or more in the middle of the night. Or it could present as them having really fragmented nights where they just wake up to every single sleep cycle. If you're nodding along, this is something you got to think about. The daily rhythm might be a bit out of whack. So definitely we see that drop in sleep pressure, fragmented nights.
Dr Laura (10:22)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (10:31)
Often we see a lot of really severe settling issues where parents are like, I have tried so hard, you know, to work on this particular settling approach. β and they will just, you know, they'll push back for hours, you know, they're awake for hours or they'll say, they just start playing. That's like, yeah, they're not tired if they're playing. β and sometimes it just results in a cot aversion. So if you are, example,
Dr Laura (10:46)
Yes.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (10:53)
trying to, and I know some people will say, Oh, if they're not sleeping in their cot, make them have cot time. Yeah. This whole idea that they're supposed to have a two hour nap. So if they wake up, you know, before two hours, you should keep them in their cot for the full two hours, which is total nonsense. But what can happen is if your baby's spending a lot of time in their cot, not asleep, not having a particularly interesting time of things, they can start to hate their cot. And you'll find the minute you go to take them in their room or the minute it looks like you might be going to settle them.
Dr Laura (11:08)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (11:23)
they will get so, so frustrated because they know they're going to be in this cot bored for a really long time, you know, trying to go to sleep. So they, yeah, the consequences can be pretty, pretty drastic. I think it's really important to think about parent mental health here as well. When parents are really trying to do the right thing by their baby, they've found this schedule and they're like, okay, this is the answer. I've got to follow this really closely, but their baby just won't stick to that schedule.
Dr Laura (11:29)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (11:50)
I think for a lot of parents, they shouldn't, but they do experience a big sense of failure. Like, what am I doing wrong? I can't get my baby to do this thing that they're apparently supposed to be able to do. β and also if you're spending a lot of time trying to settle a baby who just doesn't, you know, isn't ready for sleep. β it's pretty depressing, you know, you're in a dark room, you're doing the same thing over and over again. β it's just not good for parents either. So I think we've really got to think about parent wellbeing in this conversation as well.
Dr Laura (11:51)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah.
One of the questions I ask all families who come to see me is whether they have any physical health problems as well that are impacting their ability to care for their baby or toddler. And I am struck with how many times parents say, I've got a sore back, sore shoulder, a sore wrist, a sore arm, because they have spent hours and hours and hours.
Dr Fallon (12:28)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (12:44)
trying
to rock their baby to sleep and their babies are just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And they are starting to suffer, the parents are starting to suffer physically as well. And that can be a catalyst for parents seeking help, because they've got repetitive strain injury from patting. And I laugh as I say that I don't not laughing because I think it's funny. It's just the yeah, hopelessness these parents feel.
Dr Fallon (12:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (13:12)
that they are literally giving their all. They're giving all of their physical self to the extent that they are now suffering physically, and they're giving their all emotionally to the extent that they are now suffering psychological harm because they're so depressed and anxious about sleep time. β And there's no need for that. And it's a terrible side effect of
Dr Fallon (13:30)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (13:39)
trying to follow these age-based schedules and wake windows that are just not appropriate to their little one.
Dr Fallon (13:46)
Yeah. And it's sad
to see parents really, yeah, really struggling over something that doesn't need to be a struggle. And it makes me worry about the parents who enter parenting already vulnerable for some reason, or maybe for a multitude of reasons. And then they're like, it's all going to be okay, because I've found this schedule, this is going to solve this problem. And then you've got to experience that disappointment of, on, it's not working. What am I doing wrong? Yeah. gosh, I would love to just burn.
Dr Laura (13:57)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (14:14)
rigid weight, weight, weight schedules to the ground because it's just, yeah, you and I see, see what they do to parents. It's not pretty.
Dr Laura (14:15)
yet.
Yeah.
Yeah, could you give us an example? There may be some parents listening to this who are either pregnant and haven't had the baby yet or are just listening preemptively, their child's sleep is fine. β they're like, what are they talking about? Can you give us a bit of a flavour, Fallon, of some age-based schedules that you've seen and heard?
Dr Fallon (14:27)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
there are two that come to mind that just stick in my mind because I remember speaking to these parents and what a terrible place they were in. The first one was a four month old that I saw and the parents were following a schedule that suggested that their four month old should be, β going to bed at 7 PM and not getting out of the cot until 7 AM. So aiming for 12 hours overnight, which is already pretty hard for a four month old baby. β
But they'd been told that their baby should never be awake for longer than one and a half hours in the daytime, that they should be aiming for four or five naps that should be one to two hours each. So when you work that out on paper, we're talking about, abs, even if the naps are only an hour, we're talking about a minimum of 16 hours of sleep that they've been told this baby has to have in a 24 hour period. And that baby, you know,
a four month old could need anything from 10 to maybe 17 ish hours of sleep per 24 hours. So the number of babies that actually require, you know, 16, 17, 18 hours of sleep at four months of age is tiny. And we should not be catering to those at the absolute maximum of sleep needs that might be one or 2%. We shouldn't be giving out advice, general advice to people based on that top percent. If we do, you know, want to give general guidance, it should at least be based around the sort of typical
Dr Laura (15:58)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (16:04)
ranges. But even then, of course, that's not a one size fits all in any case. So that one really sticks out because those parents were just having the most rotten time, lots of split nights, just they were not getting more than a few minutes sleep because this baby was just waking so often. And they had that complete fragmentation happen, which is when we see, you know, parents have been trying to push this schedule, the baby's sleep pressures never getting a chance to really build up. We're always just taking the edge off the sleep drive over and over again.
Dr Laura (16:05)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm. β
Dr Fallon (16:33)
So we get this full fragmentation where if we look at a sleep diary and we cover up the times on the diary and look at it, we can't pick the day from the night. So that's, that's a real key thing that we see sometimes is, you know, and I often think that with a diary, if I cover up the actual time, so I don't know what I'm looking at, can I clearly see the day from the night in the diary? And in that case, I couldn't, it was just total fragmentation.
Dr Laura (16:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yep.
No, and we should be seeing by that age, a difference between day sleep and night sleep by four months of age. Yeah, we should be seeing babies having longer stretches overnight and shorter sleeps that naps during the day. So yeah, that poor family and that poor baby only allowed being allowed to be awake for an hour and a half at a time. I bet that baby was not happy with any attempts to
Dr Fallon (17:00)
Mmm.
Definitely.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (17:26)
put him or her down in a cot.
Dr Fallon (17:26)
No, no, and they weren't getting that
chance for the interaction and play and engagement. That's actually really crucial for development as well. Another one that just really sticks out in my mind, Laura was a 15 month old toddler that I saw in clinic and they had been given this advice by someone who should have known better. That's all I'm going to put it at.
Dr Laura (17:35)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (17:50)
They were told that their 15 month old should be doing again 7pm to 7am. That must be, I think it's like the holy grail in parenting isn't it, if you can get your baby or toddler sleeping those hours. So they... Yeah.
Dr Laura (17:58)
Yeah. And I, do you know what? let Sorry Just to jump in. I absolutely
love it, Fallon, when I do see a family in clinic that actually does have a baby that can do that. I love it because I'm like, oh my God, this is like maybe a once a month thing that I actually write in a sleep plan, seven to seven. And I just go, whoa, I've got one. But it's so rare. I see so many families. But that's how rare it is that it might be once a month that that's what I actually put in a sleep plan.
Dr Fallon (18:09)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. So true. Yep. So yeah, for this 15 month old, they were told 12 hours overnight and then one three hour day nap. So that's adding up to 15 hours total sleep. β but a three hour day nap where if he didn't want to nap too bad, he had to be in the car. I can't remember the exact hours. think it was something like 11 AM to 2 PM in the dark room, no interaction, you know, for the full period of time.
Dr Laura (18:53)
β
Dr Fallon (18:54)
to make him sleep that length of time.
Dr Laura (18:54)
yeah. β
Dr Fallon (18:56)
And of course he couldn't and the parents were pulling their hair out, feeling like that absolutely failed their toddler, which is just awful and so unnecessary. And with that particular case, he actually had a 12 hour sleep need. you know, he was spending that 15 hours they were trying to aim for, three hours he was always spending awake. So part of that was not sleeping the full three hours for his day nap, plus there was split nights happening as well. And as soon as we...
Dr Laura (18:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (19:23)
put that toddler on a 12 hour daily rhythm. can't remember exactly what it was now. think it was something like maybe it was an hour day nap and 11 hours overnight, something like that. β literally the second day he was just sleeping through and it was problem solved. And it was literally that easy. It was that easy. But this bloody person had put them, you know, led them off down the garden path saying, β if they're not, you know, if they're waking up overnight, they're overtired. So they need more day sleep.
Dr Laura (19:38)
Wow. Yep.
β yeah, yeah. And that poor toddler having to spend three hours in his cot during the day when he really needs to be up, interacting, playing, learning, developing, and three hours in a dark room, that's when they don't need it. I mean, fine if your toddler does need it, but if they don't, that's just really, it's not very kind.
Dr Fallon (19:52)
could just murder these people. What are they doing to these poor parents? Yeah.
Mmm.
Yes.
Yeah, well, we wouldn't
like it, we? If someone was like, no, you've got to go and take three hours rest in a dark room and do nothing. Yeah. Bugger off. Yeah.
Dr Laura (20:25)
Well, sometimes I'd probably quite like it.
Okay, if you really mean it, Fallon, I will just for you. β But yeah, no, I get it. That's right. If it was every day, yeah, you'd just get really bored and frustrated. So thank you for all of that. I wonder now if we can kind of wrap it up, Fallon, with just thinking about what can parents do instead of following those age-based schedules.
Dr Fallon (20:31)
On some days! β
β Yeah.
you
Yeah, look, definitely. Look, I would say it's really important to work out what your baby or toddler's unique sleep needs are. So how much sleep do they tend to average? You know, maybe look at the past week. If you've been keeping a sleep diary, how much sleep do they actually average? And then start to build out a schedule that fits in with that and gives them the opportunity to meet their sleep need, but not, you know, a lot more. You know, if they're averaging 12 hours, don't have a 14 or 15 hour schedule.
actually aim for 12 hours. That is the real key here. And sometimes we have to really massage babies and toddlers onto a new schedule to really show the circadian rhythm that, this is actually gonna work a little better for you. β But typically once we start working towards what their unique sleep needs are, everything improves. Settling is way easier. So if you need to change how you're settling them for sleep.
Dr Laura (21:35)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (21:49)
100 % you want to work on that daily rhythm first so that you're only putting them down when they truly are biologically ready for sleep. So yeah, I would say definitely thinking about their sleep needs and working with that throwing whatever age based expectations you've heard, chuck them out the window, look at the child in front of you. If they are not wanting to go to sleep for hours, then they don't need it. Like it really is about trying to use the sleep diary a little bit, but also tuning into what your baby or your toddler is, is telling you as well.
Dr Laura (21:52)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:19)
And I know that this can be massively confusing for parents and it can be really hard to have confidence in your decisions. If you're trying to drastically change your child's schedule based on this advice, it can be hard to have that confidence. It's very normal, I think, for parents these days to get some support with that. It's something that we do really well in the Sombelle programs. There's a chapter, unique sleep needs chapter that takes you through exactly how to do this and how to build that daily rhythm that's likely to fit.
because we have daily rhythm charts for different ages and based on different sleep needs so that you can kind of have a look at, yeah, if my sleep baby's sleep needs 11 hours, here are some example daily rhythms that could work. And you can, you you talk through how to tweak those and fit them to what suits your child. And of course in the clinic as well, this is our bread and butter. We are looking at sleep diaries every day and the difference it makes just having the daily rhythm optimized to your child's unique sleep needs.
Dr Laura (23:01)
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (23:16)
It is phenomenal. It is absolutely phenomenal. And I think for so many sleep doesn't quite come together until that's been done. So if you're having difficulties and they're not resolving, definitely get that additional support because then you can just be off and away and you know then how to do it. And you've got those skills. And I often say this to friends and family that I still think about my children's unique sleep needs, even though they're older.
Dr Laura (23:25)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (23:43)
β
you know, recognizing that my now my oldest is now a teen, which is weird, but, know, their sleep needs drop off and change. And, know, you constantly adapting that, but once you know how to do it, you've got the skills. And as a parent to protect their sleep and nourish their sleep right across childhood, β which is a fantastic skill to have.
Dr Laura (23:59)
Yes.
Yeah,
yeah. And the Sombelle program will also help you be confident that you have got a schedule that is working for your child. And it will talk you through adding back in a little bit more sleep. So we're always making sure that we are catering to their sleep needs. So if you're really worried, you've estimated your child's sleep needs and
you think, Oh, I don't know, it just doesn't seem right. You know, this is it's about going from having following a schedule that's totally wrong, you know, say they have a 13 hour sleep need and you're aiming for a 16 hour window, or window of opportunity across a 24 hour period, it's just like, bringing it in bringing into it's a more reasonable amount that's matching what your child is currently doing. And then seeing what now that we've got things just so
Dr Fallon (24:45)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (25:00)
What happens if I offer them a little bit more sleep? Will they take it? So we know that sleep is dynamic. And as you're saying, Fallon, it just changes as they grow and as they head into the teenage years. And obviously, see teenagers in the clinic, in the children's clinic. So we're always needing to watch and stay alert to what is happening to our children's sleep as they grow.
Dr Fallon (25:02)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (25:25)
β and just knowing that it's never static and that it's impacted by so many different factors and just starting when they're really small is going to give you the confidence to be able to do that as they grow.
Dr Fallon (25:26)
Hmm.
Absolutely. Great. I hope that that content really resonates with lots of parents because I know that every time we talk about how much we hate wake windows on social media, lots of people like it and share it and ask questions. So I thought we were over due to do an episode kind of diving into the nitty gritty on that one. So.
Yeah, I would love to hear stories too. If you have listened to this and you just go, right, that's it. I'm burning this wake window nonsense or I'm checking this schedule out the window. Let us know. Would love to, love to see the photos of the fire, the little embers of the rigid schedules.
Dr Laura (26:13)
Yes. β Yeah, no maths, it doesn't,
weight windows just will not work. Maths will not let you fit really ridiculously short weight windows to children with low sleep needs. It's just not the maths isn't going to math.
Dr Fallon (26:33)
Yep, yeah,
so true. All right, well, let's start with some parent questions now. We have got so many. my goodness. I haven't counted them, but there's a lot.
Dr Laura (26:42)
Yes, there's Yes, so we're going to
go through them as quickly as we can so that we give everyone an opportunity to get a bit of advice from us. So shall I kick off, Alan, or do you want to ask the first question? Because I've just been asking you lots. OK.
Dr Fallon (26:55)
Yeah.
No, you dive in with Melinda because
I just tried to read it and I don't know how old this chart is and I'm hoping you might remember. β
Dr Laura (27:04)
Okay,
so Melinda has a, yeah, four month old and is waking two hours after going to bed, screaming the house down. He can self-settle. So Melinda says this is really strange. He has 10 hours of sleep overnight and Melinda thought about somewhere between three and a half and four hours worth of daytime sleep, but now she's a bit unsure.
His awake time during the day is two hours and the same before bed. So it sounds like Melinda's following wake windows. She's tried to push bedtime, awake time a bit longer, but he's rubbing his eyes and begging to go down at that two hour awake window mark. So her question is, what is causing that wake up that he has two hours after bedtime?
She said the environment is perfect, so she doesn't think it's anything to do with the bedroom itself.
Dr Fallon (28:07)
Yeah, look, Melinda, I would definitely refer to that unique sleep needs chapter and find out what the actual sleep need is. Because it sounds like there's a bit of estimating in terms of how much day sleep he's having there. Excuse me. Yeah, identify what it is, because then you're going to be able to divvy up that sleep across the day and the night. It usually, you know, when they're waking up a couple of hours into the night and having that sort of
Dr Laura (28:19)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (28:33)
I don't know if it's quite a false start, because it's a bit more than one sleep cycle, but I'll put it is that, yeah, sleep pressure is a little bit low. And given that you're following sort of two hour wake windows in the daytime, it might be that that is a bit too rigid and that maybe he's overdoing the sleep a little bit. It might be that maybe we just have to keep him up that little bit longer before bed, or maybe we tweak the naps a little bit and the length of them a little bit just so that...
Dr Laura (28:49)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (28:58)
β you know, the day goes well, yet you're getting that, that better stretch of sleep at the beginning of the night. So look, I'd say your answer is in there. It's going to be figuring out what is that actual average and then working really diligently towards that. And you'll very likely see that wake up disappear.
Dr Laura (29:13)
Yeah, and knowing that that last awake time before bed generally begins to be the longest one from this point onwards. So, know, even just trying to stretch him so that he's awake for, you know, maybe two and a half hours, depending on what his sleep needs are, even three hours is not going to be doing him any harm. And that might address that two hour wake.
Dr Fallon (29:22)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (29:42)
in the night. β
Dr Fallon (29:45)
Lots of babies at that age are really cranky in the evenings and parents think, they must need to go down to bed now. But actually it's really normal to be cranky in the evening. Doesn't necessarily mean they're ready for bed. So yeah, I have a think about that, Melinda, and good luck if you need extra support, you know where we are. Katie wrote in with two questions. So the first one is, she wonders if occasional contact naps could undo the independent settling skills they've worked on with their four and a half month old.
Dr Laura (29:52)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (30:13)
She says their baby usually naps four times a day for 25 to 30 minutes each time and sleeps from 7pm to 7am overnight. Most naps happen in the cot or on the go, but about twice a week after a big or over tiring day, they offer a contact nap for easier settling. Will that occasional contact nap about twice a week impact her ability to self settle?
Dr Laura (30:38)
β no, I would say that's fine. β it's only twice a week and your baby is having four naps a day. β so four sevens, what's that? 28 and only twice a week, their contact naps. So, β yeah, I would think very unlikely if what you start to see happening is that your baby is finding it hard to settle in the cot or on the go so that the number of times that you're doing the contact naps starts to ramp up.
Dr Fallon (30:41)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (31:06)
then I would be thinking about perhaps there's something now in your baby's sleep need that suggests that they need to reduce the number of naps they're having during the day, for example. And that will probably be a bit of a sign for you that it's time to change your baby's schedule. So four naps a day and they each sound like they're one sleep cycle.
Dr Fallon (31:29)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (31:32)
I see that I know that Katie sent in a follow-up email about two weeks later, and her baby's now five months old. And it could well be that your baby starts to have, you know, one or two longer naps where they start to link those cycles. And if you try to keep them on four naps a day, you might more and more find that one of those naps has to be a contact nap each day. That's going to be your sign to drop down to three naps.
Dr Fallon (32:01)
Hmm. And
if you've got a baby who's never self settled in their cot and you are trying to practice that skill, that's when I would say I would avoid contact naps until they've got the hang of it. Otherwise it can be a bit confusing for them. Um, and second, Katie asks, does sleep quality affect sleep needs? She says, lately, my husband has had a bad cough, which is particularly bad at night. Um,
Dr Laura (32:09)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (32:24)
And yes, she mentions her daughter is five months old and for a couple of nights I've noticed her stirring and then self settling back to sleep more than usual. She has also been particularly cranky in the daytime and having an extra nap. Could the disruption from my husband's cough be leading to poor sleep quality for her and throwing off her schedule?
Dr Laura (32:42)
I think it's probably more to do with now that she is five months old, she probably is able to β move down to fewer naps a day. Katie, if she's having one extra nap a day, that would suggest five naps a day. And if she's five months old, I think what's beginning to happen is that she's not able to, like we were just talking about in the introduction, she's not able to build her sleep pressure high enough before each nap.
Dr Fallon (32:47)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:11)
And then that means that her naps are only one sleep cycle or possibly less. And then that means that by bedtime, her sleep pressure is not particularly high, which means she's a little bit more wakeful overnight and you're hearing her, so like resettling herself. So it's great. She's still able to resettle herself, but I reckon it's probably taking her a little bit more work to self settle. And that's what you're hearing. And it's coincided with your husband having a cough.
Dr Fallon (33:25)
Hmmmm
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:41)
And maybe that is waking her a little bit when she's coming up into light sleep. If there was a cough that happened at that time, it's hitting in at the same point as her low sleep pressure is playing a part. so the two could be feeding off each other. So Katie, would be looking at rather than offering one extra nap a day.
Dr Fallon (33:42)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (34:07)
trying to help your daughter consolidate those naps. So perhaps she's on three or four. I'd probably actually be saying three naps at five months old, trying for more like three naps a day and longer naps if you can. Do you have anything to add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (34:19)
Hmm.
Only that it sounds like that cycle of like the nights being a bit tricky. So playing up, playing catch up with extra day sleep, which then means the nights stay a little bit tricky. Not that they're super tricky, but they're just, you know, she's a bit more wakeful. I would, yeah, I'd probably kick your husband out of wherever he's sleeping, make him go sleep, you know, on the couch for a week or something like that. So that you can just protect the baby's sleep and get that, that good daily rhythm happening. β
Dr Laura (34:27)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (34:46)
Yeah, good luck, Katie. hope that's hopefully it's all resolving by now anyway, especially that annoying cough. So many bugs going around at the moment.
Dr Laura (34:50)
Yeah.
Yeah. Melissa's
written in about her 12 month old who has had great improvements following using Sombell and her baby is now sleeping independently and through the night. So that's wonderful to hear. Yay. So Melissa has found that capping day naps at one hour works well for her baby. However, at daycare, the policy is to wake children only at the end of
Dr Fallon (35:08)
Yay, well done.
Dr Laura (35:22)
a 45 minute sleep cycle. And that means that they have to choose whether their 12 month old is woken after 45 minutes or after an hour and a half, the daycare will not wake their baby at one hour. So Melissa just wants to know what we think about this policy. Is there actually some truth in it? Should we be awake that she's saying, should we be waking him at 45 minutes when he's at home and not one hour?
Is there anything that we can do to advocate for what our boy needs? She says, I know that at the end of the day, it is only a 15 minute difference, but he is cranky in the evenings after he's been at daycare and only had that 45 minute nap. What do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (36:09)
Well, daycare centres, they're allowed to have whatever policies they want. And it is really frustrating. I think we could, you know, definitely do a little bit more sleep education in that space so that centres are a bit more flexible depending on what children actually need. At 12 months of age, his sleep cycle could be 30 minutes or it could be 45 minutes or it could be somewhere in between. In this particular example, I would probably be tempted
Dr Laura (36:20)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:37)
to if you allow for an hour and a half at daycare, it's going to work whether it's a 45 minute sleep cycle or a 30 minute sleep cycle. They both fit neatly into an hour and a half. So if the toing and froing, the difference between at home and childcare, you feel it's really influencing the quality of the nighttime sleep. It may be better just to go, okay, we're just gonna aim for an hour and a half total at home and daycare. It's then the same. We're not waking him up halfway through any sleep cycles at any point.
Dr Laura (37:01)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (37:06)
β and then you would just need to adapt the night. So it might mean that you trim an hour from now, β half an hour from the night, just to allow for that extra day sleep. I think that's probably the best way to work with it when daycare is not quite on board with our plans.
Dr Laura (37:09)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, I love that answer Fallon.
I wasn't sure which way you would go, but I think that sounds like the most sensible option because, like you said, regardless of how long Melissa's son's sleep cycle is, an hour and a half is likely to fit nicely.
Dr Fallon (37:40)
Hmm.
Yeah. Good. All right. So now we have a question from Rochelle. So Rochelle has a 21 month old, who's always been a low sleep needs toddler. She has one nap, which is capped at an hour and a half total. Her bedtime is 7.30 PM. And, oh, hang on her bed. Oh, her bedtime is between 7.30 and 8.00 Falling asleep.
Dr Laura (37:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (38:07)
in her cot either independently or with a parent standing beside her and she sleeps until 5 30 a.m. Rochelle says she would love a later wake up in the morning but no matter what time we put her to bed she still wakes early. Is there anything else they could try? She says sometimes I can get her to sleep in more if I co-sleep with her in her room.
However, I don't want to develop this habit just to get extra sleep. I'm glad, please don't do that Rochelle. It's a very, very slippery slope, isn't it? She says, ever since our little one was born, her way of letting us know she's awake for the morning is crying. Is this normal for some kids? It's not the nicest way to start the day. She's usually consolable with a bottle or breakfast. So Rochelle has been getting that prepared before she wakes.
Dr Laura (38:33)
Yeah. β
Dr Fallon (38:54)
Is there anything else this way of waking could be caused by or ways to make her wake calmly? Bit to unpack. Mmm.
Dr Laura (39:00)
Hmm. Well, I might take that second question first.
So Rochelle, some babies do, mean, it often is the way that babies wake up is crying, particularly if they're in another room, because they need their main way of communicating. So they cry because they're saying, hello, I'm up, I'm awake. β Come get me. β Where are you? And it's nothing to worry about. Your baby has always done it. So it's probably just
Dr Fallon (39:18)
Come get me!
Dr Laura (39:29)
her way of waking up in the morning, you might find that as she grows older, she just, particularly she gets into β primary school and then teenage years, she may just not quite be a morning person and just doesn't like that transition from waking up, from being asleep to waking up and has a bit of a grizzle in the morning and at moment is crying as she gets older, it might just be a bit grumpy and she might just sit there eating a cereal in the morning a little bit grumpy. And it's, you know,
Dr Fallon (39:46)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (39:59)
quickly passes in five or 10 minutes and it's just nothing to worry about. Some parents will start to use a of a grow clock style thing, like a training clock or one of those other clocks that change color and project kind of light up onto the ceiling just to start to lighten the room in an ambient way. Or you might have a, if you've got one of those Google, what are they called? Nests or?
Dr Fallon (40:04)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (40:28)
the, β you know, smart speakers in the bedroom, you could potentially could start playing some nice wake up music and just see if you can do some ambient waking. but if she's just going to be a bit grumpy when she wakes up, it's just one of those things.
Dr Fallon (40:40)
Hmm.
Do you know what I wonder Laura is that some so often toddlers realize if I wake up with an absolute shriek, my parents come running and they just they're not upset. They're just like, I know if I'm really extreme, mum's going to get here with that bottle really fast. And because Rochelle mentioned she gets up early to prepare the bottle or breakfast before her daughter wakes. I reckon that could be what's happening. So in that case, it might be that you go.
Dr Laura (40:54)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (41:12)
Okay. Well over the next few weeks, I'm just going to take a little longer to get in there. I'm going to show her that she's fine if she has to wait one minute and then maybe she's going to wait two minutes. β because if you're trying to get a longer sleep in, but when she wakes up early, you run in and give her a bottle or brekkie. She's just going to be thinking great. Cause that when we intake our calories as well is actually a signal for the circadian rhythm that it is time to start the day. So if we rush in at 5 30 AM, give a bottle, we're actually saying to the circadian rhythm. Yeah, absolutely. Let's start the day right now.
Dr Laura (41:25)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (41:40)
So anyway, I just wanted to jump in and add that it's something to think about if you've got a toddler waking really early. You know, in Rochelle's case, if you would rather she wakes up at 6am, maybe don't offer the bottle and breakfast until 6am. She's 21 months old. She should be fine to wait until 6am for that.
Dr Laura (41:41)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes. Yeah. And then that's
just removing that kind of conditioning that as soon as she wakes up and lets out the shriek that she gets the feed no matter what time it is. So she just has to wait until six. The other things you could look at doing Rochelle is β being really consistent with that bedtime. So at the moment, there's a half an hour window in terms of bedtime. And I know you said that
Dr Fallon (42:06)
Mmm. β
Dr Laura (42:24)
she just always no matter what time you put her to bed, she seems to wake early for the day. So try for a whole week to do an 8pm bedtime rather than 7.30 and do what Falon's just suggesting there. Don't rush in as soon as she wakes at 5.30 and don't offer her the bottle straight away so that she learns that she just has to wait until six. And also the final thing I would suggest is to add in a little bit more consistently with that settling.
at bedtime. some of the time she goes to sleep without you there and other times she needs you there as she goes to sleep. So just, you know, perhaps because she can settle independently with that later bedtime of eight o'clock, she's going to be more able to tolerate you leaving 100 % of the time rather than just half of the time. And then
Dr Fallon (42:59)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (43:19)
she's not ever waking up later and thinking or coming up into light sleep and going hang on when I went to sleep they were standing right here by my cot and now they're not and then letting out a big shriek because that's you know she's not happy about that so there's a few things there for you to try Rochelle
Dr Fallon (43:25)
Hmm.
Yep.
Yeah, good luck. Hope it goes well.
Dr Laura (43:39)
Okay, we've got question from Kim and Kim has a five month old and she's wondering if it's too early to drop to two naps. She's given some background info so I'll just read that out Fallon. So her five month old self settles for all her naps and her nighttime sleep β except for the third nap which has become a struggle over the last five or six days.
Kim says that they've tried shortening the nap, it just, the second nap, but it just didn't help. So the baby's current schedule is a nap in the morning for between 45 and 50 minutes, then a longer midday nap for an hour and a half, then the third nap around four, 4.30 for 30 minutes where they have to wake the baby up. And then is sleeping from 8.00 until
around 7.75. Kim notes that her baby is crankier in the afternoon and actually started to move around a lot before settling. So I think the settles are taking a little bit longer for nap time. She thinks that the baby's sleep needs are around. Oh, she doesn't say she's tried to calculate the daily sleep needs, but she's unsure of the accuracy.
because they wake their baby every day at 7.30 in the morning if they haven't woken already.
Dr Fallon (45:14)
Yeah. Okay. β so to start with, you can still feel confident in whatever the sleep average is in your diary, because if you're consistently waking them by that time, like it's fine. You'll be getting a pretty accurate view of things because it is something you do consistently. it does sound like they're getting ready to drop that third nap. β but they might not be quite there yet.
Dr Laura (45:35)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (45:39)
So what I would want to know is when you trim down the midday nap, did you do it for a full week? β really consistently across that week. β because often it takes a week of doing it to start to see things improve. So often when they're on the cusp of dropping a nap, I will say to parents, yeah, let's trim it down to three shorter naps for a little bit. Cause you're feeling like they're not quite ready for two naps and that might work for a couple of weeks and then they'll be ready to go back to two longer naps again. So that's something to think about.
Dr Laura (45:44)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (46:05)
You could also just keep the schedule as it is, but do the third nap in the pram or the car, plan to be somewhere. It's not forever, but if that's going to help them just have an easy settle, then that's great. Yeah, I'm not sure what else I would add to that really. think it's not too early to drop to two naps. should say some babies with a lower sleep need will drop a nap earlier than others.
Dr Laura (46:27)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (46:28)
But
it's usually that they're closer to six months of age onwards. That's why I wouldn't just say, you know, if Kim said her baby's eight months old, I'd be like, yeah, drop that third nap for sure. β but they are a little young for dropping down to two naps. yeah, I'd try just really consistently for a week, having three shorter naps, see if that helps. β probably within a few weeks, you're going to notice that, they're just ready for two naps and you'll make that transition and be a little bit bumpy, but then they should adapt within a week or so. Would you add anything to that, Laura?
Dr Laura (46:30)
Mm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Only that it sounds like that third nap might be a little too short because it's 30 minutes and the baby always requires waking and then is crankier in the afternoons, which suggests that perhaps you're waking your baby mid-sleep cycle. So you might find, yeah, 345 minutes and then that might help with that crankiness and then
Dr Fallon (47:14)
Yeah, good point. Yeah, it might be better to do four, like three 45 minute naps, for example.
Dr Laura (47:24)
as in the crankiness will go away. And then you may find that then you can move to β when you do transition to two naps, one nap is back to an hour and a half. So two sleep cycles, and then the other nap is 45 minutes ish. Yeah, so good luck. Hope that helps Kim.
Dr Fallon (47:37)
Hmm.
Yeah, yep. Yeah.
Grace has written in, she has a seven month old and a two year old and is after advice on trying to align their nap schedules. The seven month old has a 13 and a half hour daily sleep need and typically takes a late afternoon nap around 430 to 5pm before a 730pm bedtime. The two year old naps from 1230 to 130.
Grace is keen to drop the seven month old's late afternoon nap. So she's just on two naps and have both children nap together at lunchtime. And Grace says, maybe I'm asking for the stars to align and it's just not possible, but look, he's hoping. I wish, I wish there was a way to get a baby on two naps and a toddler on one to align, but it's gonna, one of them is not gonna have a great schedule if we try and push for it, I think. what do you think Laura, what would you do?
Dr Laura (48:25)
iOS.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Look, this is, β Grace, I really feel for you, because this is a problem that all of us parents have with this kind of β age gap between our children, where it's, my god, it would be like the Holy Grail would be to have those naps aligned. I think it's just going to be too hard at this point, it will happen. But it's, it will happen when your seven month old drops down to one nap.
Dr Fallon (48:59)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (49:04)
that their naps will align. It's going to be so hard for your little baby to be able to either stay up all morning before they have their first nap so that it aligns at the same time as your two year old's lunchtime nap and then have a second nap before bed. equally, if they were, you were to try and give your seven month old their usual morning nap and then their second nap.
at the same time your two year old naps, they're going to be up from 130, which is just going to be way too long for them to be awake before bedtime. So I think as much as it would be wonderful, if you could do it, I just don't think it's going to be possible. There's going to be a period of time where you unfortunately have seven month old napping in the morning with the two year old awake, and then your two year old having the nap at lunchtime while your baby's awake and then.
Dr Fallon (49:43)
Thank
Dr Laura (50:02)
your two-year-old up whilst your seven-month-old has their afternoon nap and then you'll have bedtime at the hopefully for both of them at the same time try and get the bedtime to align and maybe think about it as giving you the opportunity to have one-on-one time with each of your children so particularly for your toddler who would have had all of that time just with you before the baby brother or sister was born so thinking about what nice things you can do.
Dr Fallon (50:18)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (50:31)
with your two year old when, β Bob is asleep in the morning and afternoon. And then likewise having that opportunity to just have one-on-one time with Bob whilst your toddler sleeps, sometimes just doing a bit of a change in how you think about it, β can help which could otherwise feel like a nap trapped schedule. β yeah.
Dr Fallon (50:47)
Hmm.
Yeah, definitely.
I think that's really, really good advice. We've still got lots of questions to get through, Laura. So let's put our skates on for these ones. Do want to read Eileen's question?
Dr Laura (50:59)
Okay, let's all right. Let's go. Okay. Yeah, so Yulin's
written asking advice about her toddler's nap time routine. So Yulin says her dad and I have been able to say good night and leave for night sleep and she self settles without much crying. With the naps, it's more variable with her toddler sometimes crying for, you know, up to eight minutes. Yulin says that
Her husband thinks that in the daytime there's no melatonin, the room isn't dark, so she says when we leave our toddler can see us and becomes very upset. So he thinks that they should just go into the walk-in robe and leave once she's asleep for her naps. But Eulin thinks that they should maintain consistency between the day and the night, i.e. just leave the room. So Eulin asks, should we? One, this feels like a quiz.
Both stay in the walk-in robe after settling her for the day nap. Two, try leaving the room but stay in the walk-in robe if we need to go back into resettle. Or three, my husband doesn't like her crying and would not be keen to consistently leave the room for naps. Is it fine for him to stay in the walk-in robe and for me to leave if we are consistent within ourselves?
Dr Fallon (51:54)
Yeah.
No. Ba-bom.
Hehehehehe
β if you're, if you could go into the walk-in robe and your toddler cries less, they still know that you're there. Like they're still, so there's always going to be that chance that they're going to wake overnight and be like, where are you? And kind of want you to come back in. β look, I would say the ideal is to maintain, maintain consistency and leave five to eight minutes of fussing is not a big deal. β it's pretty, pretty normal for there to be a bit of fussing at nap time. Cause most toddlers would much rather play than that.
Dr Laura (52:43)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (52:43)
β
if he's going to struggle with that and wants to stay in her walk-in robe, absolutely he can go for it, but he will be called upon during the night when she wakes up, he will be the one who has to go back in there. And I think that's just fair. You know, if, if the, if their toddler is going to wake up, sort of wondering where he is, then he's got to be the one who's prepared to go back in at night and reappear again. β when she wants him to.
Dr Laura (52:56)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah, I think that sounds absolutely fair. Yep. So good luck, Yulin.
Dr Fallon (53:10)
Awesome. Yeah,
good luck. Angela has a 26 month old and is seeking advice on their child's increasing tiredness during the day. Their child follows a daily rhythm of about an 8 to 8.15 PM bedtime and they wake between about 6 and 6.30 AM and they sleep through the night. Their child has a one and a half hour nap, but for the past two weeks has been getting tired and irritable by 8, sorry, by 10 AM.
though the parent, sorry, Angela pushes through until a nap, they usually sort of give them the nap between about 12, 30 p.m. and 2 p.m. So Angela is wondering if their active lifestyle, which involves lots of outdoor play, socializing, minimal screen time, could be affecting their child's sleep and if they should consider creating more relaxed days, I guess to make it easy to get through to nap time.
Dr Laura (54:03)
Most 26-month-olds are full of energy and we're actually looking to make sure that they are outside a lot so that they are in the sun, in natural daylight, and using their little bodies, getting all the exercise that they need, having all the interactions that they need to help with their communication development and social skills. At 26 months of age,
I'd say it's a little bit unusual to be getting tired and irritable at 10am, particularly because this is a relatively new thing that they get tired at that time. It's not like you've just β made any big changes recently and it's on the back of good sleep overnight. So I would just be having a think through whether there's any other factors that might be impacting your toddler's sleep. Angela may be making an appointment with the GP.
Dr Fallon (54:58)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (55:02)
to have a chat about tiredness during the day on the back of otherwise good sleep. Because that is a little bit of a red flag when there's tiredness when a child is sleeping well. It's okay if you, when a toddler is only on one nap, you don't have to be really strict about what time that nap is. So you know, if there are some days that your toddler goes down for their nap at 11.30.
Dr Fallon (55:14)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (55:31)
That's okay. I wouldn't be. Yeah, Yeah, so I wouldn't be thinking you have to keep them going until 1230. It might be that actually your toddler just does prefer a slightly earlier nap, and that would be okay as well. And I wouldn't be thinking about trying to change anything about their lifestyle unless you find out from the doctor that there is something medical going on.
Dr Fallon (55:31)
Hmm. 1130 is pretty common really, isn't it? And then that'd be up by one and that might work better.
Hmm. β
Hmm.
If they're unhappy though, like it might be worth just dialing back the outside activity a little bit. If you're thinking it's just a bit hard to have them out and about, like, I mean, you experiment a few days, have a quiet morning and see if they're a little bit more manageable. The signs you're really, really looking out for, for grumpiness after a solid night are things like, are they snoring? Are they breathing with their mouth open?
Dr Laura (56:10)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (56:19)
gasping in their sleep or do they have a really limited diet and do think they could be low on iron because they are probably the key things we would want your GP to check out. Let us know how you go Angela.
Dr Laura (56:25)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Okay, so Jessica's written in. She has a 13 month old and is after advice about some sleep disruptions they're experiencing when transitioning from two naps down to one. So since making this transition, Jessica's toddler has begun to have fragmented sleep both during the day and at night. So Jessica is having to resettle her toddler after every sleep cycle.
And she's also having false starts at the start of the night and is having wakes overnight from after midnight. So once that deep sleep is over, prior to dropping down to one nap, their toddler was having much longer stretches of sleep. So Jessica says that she's concerned about further increasing her toddler's awake time during the day because just doing this transition.
Jessica says she's already lengthened her awake times for an hour and a half to two hours. She says despite tracking the sleep and offering an afternoon cat nap, which her toddler is just not interested in having, she's found that her child is averaging around 12 and a half hours of sleep. And after eight days having that single nap, she hasn't found any improvements to the sleep overnight.
So Jessica's wondering, is that disruptive sleep normal during that two to one nap transition, or should she be thinking about reverting to two naps temporarily? Should they push through this phase, or is there a deeper issue such as needing to check her toddler's iron levels?
Dr Fallon (58:18)
It never hurts to think about iron. If iron is getting low, we are going to see disrupted sleep and tiredness. When you have a big change to the schedule and dropping from two naps to one nap is a really big change for the circadian rhythm to go through. It's really normal to have really weird things happen to sleep. So having false starts and interrupted nights can be really normal at first, typically by about seven days that settling down. So I'd be really keen to know, I don't know when Jessica sent this email, but even just another two or three days,
Dr Laura (58:20)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (58:48)
on from that point, you might suddenly go, yeah, now it's clicked. Now we're, now we're cooking. This is good. You know, everything's coming along really well. β so it might be worth sticking with it for another few days, Jessica, just to see if you feel like there's a bit of traction there and things settle down and start to improve. If they don't absolutely revert to two naps, it might be that they need two naps for another few weeks. And then you try that change again and it goes a whole lot better. β I think that would be probably be the best way to approach it.
Dr Laura (58:51)
Mmm, yes.
Great.
Dr Fallon (59:17)
Hmm.
Uh, and I think we might skip ahead to Emily's question now. Laura, is it your turn to read out or is it mine? Oh, okay. Cool. All right. So Emily says we're struggling to get our 13 month old daughter down for her second nap. Even when we kept the first nap to just one sleep cycle of 45 minutes. She says we've tried to do one 12 PM nap a couple of times and the nap lasts for about an hour and a half.
Dr Laura (59:22)
Mm-hmm.
I think it's your turn.
Dr Fallon (59:44)
but she has been so tired that it's impacted her hunger and she refuses to eat. And she ends up going to bed early after a really hard evening. She's also so irritable and it breaks Emily's heart. it's tough. Emily wants to know, should I persist and will she get used to one nap or is a couple of attempts just not enough? Or should I go back to two naps and cap the first nap even shorter? β Let's start with that part of the question and then there's a little follow up question as well.
Dr Laura (1:00:12)
Yeah. So I think the same answer applies to the one that we just gave to Jessica. So Emily's daughter is the same age as Jessica's. The difference is that Emily's only attempted the one nap on two occasions. And so that isn't enough time to answer your question, Emily, to see β if it's the right move. So we always want to give it at least seven days to give your daughter circadian rhythm time to adjust to that one nap.
Dr Fallon (1:00:15)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (1:00:41)
And of course she will be tired because she's not used to being awake for this length of time, but it's a reasonable age to try dropping down to one nap and presumably Emily, saw all the signs that we described in Sombell that says it's time to give it a go. So try for a whole week and...
Dr Fallon (1:00:42)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (1:01:05)
you might think about adding in a morning tea if you don't already give her morning tea to just try to ensure that she's getting all the food that she needs trying to maybe β giving more food earlier on in the day before she gets really tired in the evening. Try it for a whole week if it doesn't work then revert back to two short naps β and then wait another few weeks and then try again.
Dr Fallon (1:01:26)
Hmm.
I think that's really good advice. β Emily's next question is about their planning an overseas trip and the flight will be in the daytime when she's probably just going to be on the one nap and she's wondering how do you get a baby to sleep on the plane when they're not used to being rocked to sleep at home? And she says her baby is so good at self settling that she just thinks, there's no way they're going to want to rock to sleep on the plane.
Dr Laura (1:01:41)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:01:55)
Look, we do have a lesson on international flights that will be really helpful for managing this. But I would just my initial reaction Laura is who cares? Just see what happens. can that when they get there, things are going to be a bit out of whack. Make it as similar as possible. Maybe book them their own seat on the plane so that they do have a space where they can lie down a bit more independently. But what are your thoughts? Would you anything to that?
Dr Laura (1:02:08)
Yeah.
Yeah, likewise,
like you and I both have been lucky enough to travel with babies. And the whole day is going to seem very strange to your toddler. The whole experience is going to be weird. And so sleeping on your lap on the on the plane is just going to add to just this is just another strange day.
Dr Fallon (1:02:24)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (1:02:41)
And it's not going to unravel any learning that your toddler has had to date, because the whole thing is just going to be weird. And if she doesn't sleep very well on the plane, so be it, just give her a nap when you get to Bali, depending on what time of day it is. And like Fallon says, just check out that chapter that we have on international travel with how to manage the naps and have a lovely holiday.
Dr Fallon (1:02:42)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, yep. Good fun.
Dr Laura (1:03:15)
All right, so we have a final question from Laura and she's seeking advice on what she wonders if a false starts in her four and a half month old sleep. So her baby self settles, sleeps through the night and has three naps a day. And Laura says in the last three weeks, she has woken up 50 % of the nights after her first sleep cycle, 25 % of the time after her second sleep cycle.
And Laura says, say woken up, but she doesn't open her eyes. She gristles for one to three minutes and then self settles back to sleep with no input from us. My question is given she doesn't seem to actually wake up during them, is this β a false start? Is it likely to be a sleep pressure or maybe a result in a change to her sleep cycles at four months? And she's coming into light sleep and just grizzling to self soothe back into another sleep cycle.
Dr Fallon (1:04:13)
Yeah, this is a really good question, Laura. And look, I would say what's really fantastic to hear is that your baby is not needing any input from you and they're just resettling. So I wouldn't quite count it as a false start. And I wouldn't be thinking sleep pressure just yet. If they start to get more and more wakeful when this happens, and then you're starting to have to go in and do something, that's when I'd start to go, maybe, maybe there's a bit of a sleep pressure issue there.
Dr Laura (1:04:23)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (1:04:40)
At four and a half months of age, your baby's hit that point where they really start to do that systems check. So after each sleep cycle, kind of rouse a little bit, their body is kind of checking, is everything around me the same? Is everything okay? I'm not hungry, I'm not dirty, all of those sorts of things are being checked. And your baby is starting to do that check and go, yep, okay, it's all cool. And I'm back to sleep again.
Dr Laura (1:04:56)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:05:03)
which is fantastic. So I'd say just keep an eye on it and if it starts to become a longer or longer way, that's when I'd start to maybe think about tweaking that daily rhythm a little bit. But it sounds like you're doing a great job and things are really on track, which is awesome.
Dr Laura (1:05:19)
Great.
Dr Fallon (1:05:20)
Excellent. Well, we did it. We got through all the questions, Laura,
Dr Laura (1:05:22)
Yay.
Dr Fallon (1:05:23)
quite a lot of them. So thank you to all the parents who sent in these brilliant questions. They were really, really good ones. And I think some of them really nicely illustrated our points around rigid age based wake windows being, you know, not, not ideal. So we really hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if you have ideas for things you'd like to hear us talk about in future episodes, please let us know. I'll be doing a few call outs on social media.
Dr Laura (1:05:35)
you
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:05:48)
If you don't already follow our social media channels, go and follow our Instagram. It's probably where we're most active. It's just infant.sleep.australia. We're also on TikTok, but I cannot remember what our handle is, but go and search infant sleep Australia. You'll probably find us. Yeah, do follow us along because we're really ramping up a lot of content in response to what parents have been asking for. If you would like to buy us a coffee, please do. Somebody bought us a coffee this morning. I can't remember who it was. β
Dr Laura (1:05:59)
Ha!
Yeah they did. Let
me see if I can see. Angela! It was Angela. Thank you Angela.
Dr Fallon (1:06:16)
Thank you so much to whoever that was. Angela, thanks Angela.
That's really lovely. We'll put the link in our show notes if you would like to buy us a cuppa, we would love you for it. Other ways you can support us are to leave a review on whatever platform it is you listen to the podcast. Make sure you've subscribed to the podcast, share it with your friends. Word of mouth is a wonderful thing. And of course, if you are struggling with your baby or toddler's sleep, or for that matter, your school-aged child's sleep or your teen's sleep.
Dr Laura (1:06:44)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (1:06:46)
we can absolutely help you. So for babies and toddlers, we can help you in our infant sleep Australia sleep clinics. We do tele health around the world, everywhere except the USA for insurance purposes. But if you're outside, yeah, if you're outside of USA, we can 100 % help you via tele health. We also have our Melbourne clinic where you can see lovely Laura in person if you're local to Melbourne.
Dr Laura (1:06:57)
Not political reasons.
Dr Fallon (1:07:09)
And if you do have older children, check out Children's Sleep Australia. That's our clinic for older kids. So yeah, have an awesome week everyone. And send, if you're a Sombelle member, send in your questions for next week's episode.
Dr Laura (1:07:23)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
