Dr Fallon (00:02)
Last week, a family I saw in clinic told me, "we've been doing cry it out." When I asked them to explain what they meant, it turned out the approach they'd tried before visiting the clinic was not even close to cry it out. And that got me wondering, why do so many parents not know what cry it out actually means? Well, it didn't take long to figure this out. In this episode, you're going to learn what
cry it out actually means and learn why we haven't ever suggested a family try it.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Paediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. We are PhDs and sleep practitioners and co-directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, how's your week been?
Dr Laura (00:53)
Yeah, it's been good. Thank you. actually had a really nice productive weekend this weekend doing things around the house that I've been putting off for ages. And so I'm feeling really smug today knowing that I've cleaned behind the fridge and cleaned the coffee machine.
Dr Fallon (01:03)
β good.
Love it. Love
it. I love starting the week feeling. Yeah. Really, really organized. My husband's home sick today. And I was like, now here are a few things you can do. β I don't care that you're sick. I've been sick before and I still clean the house. So he's currently sorting washing, which is always a bit of an experiment because like we never know what clothes each child's going to end up with. It's usually a bit of like mismatch crossover, but that's all right.
Dr Laura (01:16)
Yeah
You
Hahaha!
Dr Fallon (01:37)
He'll do his best, we'll figure it out later.
Dr Laura (01:38)
Yeah, did
you have a nice weekend?
Dr Fallon (01:42)
Yeah, I did. I, β I took one of my dogs to his first ever, β private, β like dog training class. so it's just like a one-on-one thing. Cause he's a bit of an, an idiot when he's around other dogs. I was like, right, we need, we need someone to just help just us, or it's going to be complete chaos. So went and did that. And it was actually really nice. Cause it kind of felt like I was just doing something, you know, without the kids tagging along, β just me and little George the Whippet. So that was really fun.
Dr Laura (01:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. β
did he do okay? Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:12)
He did really well, actually.
Yeah, I was really surprised. So yeah, there's hope apparently. Maybe one day he won't be such an idiot. He's gorgeous, but just very overexcited. So yeah.
Dr Laura (02:18)
β gosh!
Well, maybe
that's going to be a new avenue, Fallon. I can't imagine that things will get to the point where parents don't need support with their children. But perhaps you should be paying close attention to what the dog trainer is suggesting and you could do some puppy training in the future.
Dr Fallon (02:28)
Hehehehe
I had a really interesting
discussion with him. He was saying, my partner is a psychologist and that she often talks to him about how often, you know, a lot of the strategies they use with dogs are similar strategies to what you use with toddlers. It really is similar in that you're, you know, you're trying to really encourage the good things. yeah, so was very interesting, but no, it was a lovely, lovely weekend. And, β yeah.
Dr Laura (02:54)
You
Yes.
β Good.
Dr Fallon (03:08)
Here we are again, episode 93, we're creeping up to episode 100. Amazing.
Dr Laura (03:12)
My goodness, I can't
believe it. I cannot believe it. Geez, 93. And some listeners have listened to all of them and are well done if you were one of those listeners.
Dr Fallon (03:20)
Bye.
That amazes me. Someone the other day in a call was saying, you know, your voice has just filled our house for all these months of like, you know, us becoming parents. It's been your voice echoing around the house. my God, you poor thing. I'm so sorry.
Dr Laura (03:41)
I know, can you imagine
our kids if they knew that they'd just be like rolling their eyes like, oh my God, people are actually making a voluntary choice to listen to our mums voices.
Dr Fallon (03:52)
Yeah. Oh, it's hilarious. Oh, well, we just started to dive into something a bit meaty this week. Um, after, yeah, I saw a family the other week who, um, we're like, yeah, we've been doing crying out and I was like, Oh, just talk me through what you mean by that. And it really got me thinking that this family, like so many others are kind of using that term incorrectly because they've been led to believe that it means something that it actually doesn't.
Dr Laura (04:00)
Mmm.
Hmm
Dr Fallon (04:20)
And I thought, let's start to unpack, you know, a bit of that, β and really explore what, what is cry it out. Cause I feel like a lot of parents don't actually know. β Laura, do you want to tell us what, what is cry it out?
Dr Laura (04:20)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, so cry out is quite an old fashioned approach to approaching children, baby and toddler sleep. And what it means is putting your baby or toddler into their cot or bed at bedtime, leaving the room, shutting the door and not returning at all until morning time. Even... β yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (04:56)
Hmm. I think I can hear in the distant parents minds just going, what? No,
that's not what we, but that is actually what it is. It's not responding at all to a child overnight until morning, no matter how extreme things get. β yeah. And I would say what parents usually think cry it out means is just any attempt to settle their baby in the cot where the baby might cry, but she's just, it's.
Dr Laura (05:05)
That is, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (05:25)
It's not the same thing. So I've heard,
Dr Laura (05:26)
No, not the same at all.
Dr Fallon (05:28)
yeah, I've heard people say that they're using cry it out when actually they are, you know, settling their baby in the cot, but they're patting them constantly or they're sitting in the room and singing to them. Or I even had one one time who thought she was using cry it out because she'd stopped feeding the baby to sleep, but was rocking them to sleep in her arms. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's not.
Dr Laura (05:50)
β That is not, no.
Dr Fallon (05:54)
cry it out not at all. And I think it's really important that we use these terms correctly. Just because of where this confusion came from. And it is a bit of an interesting thing when we start to unpack it. Why do you think this confusion came about, Laura?
Dr Laura (06:01)
Yeah.
Mm. Yeah.
Mm.
I think that there are some individuals who have banded together now into groups who have an agenda perhaps where they feel that doing any kind of cot settling is wrong. sometimes we call them the anti-cot settling groups. And for whatever reason, they become very upset.
Dr Fallon (06:35)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (06:42)
at themselves at the thought of a β baby or a toddler crying at all, no matter what. And because they see that when you change how a baby or toddler settles to sleep or when they go to sleep, that they can communicate that through crying. These people think, well, that means that it's something bad. Crying is bad. Therefore it is
absolutely wrong to make those changes because crying equals bad. Exactly what their agenda is, well, we can only speculate, β but they want parents to stop doing anything that causes any crime because of a misunderstanding of what crying means. And they then use kind of fear mongering. They want to capture any, any
approaches at all, even really supportive approaches to teaching your child how to settle under this banner of cry it out. And so they, β they will sow these little seeds of incorrect information that if your child is crying at all around bedtime, that means that you are using cry it out and they lump everything together. Any kind, you know, as you're saying, even those parents who are coming in and saying,
Dr Fallon (07:46)
you
Mmm.
Dr Laura (08:10)
They think that they are using cry it out because they have stopped feeding to sleep and they're rocking their baby to sleep in their arms. And they then feel that, no, that they've been told that this is cry it out and that's going to cause damage because any crying is bad. And so these groups have just created this environment where parents are so fearful that they're doing something wrong that they therefore won't do anything at all.
Dr Fallon (08:17)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (08:39)
because I just do not want that crying because crying equals bad.
Dr Fallon (08:42)
Yeah.
Yeah. I think the term cry it out has kind of been hijacked. now any, you know, if your baby cries at all, well, it must be cry it out. And because parents do equate cry it out with being harmful, it's making a lot of parents really, really scared and unnecessarily so because when a baby makes an adjustment to anything in their environment, whether it's getting used to writing in
Dr Laura (08:48)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:08)
a pram or a car seat or getting used to having their nappy changed or like really anything like that. Often they'll show their, β displeasure in the whole thing by crying. And our job as parents is not to go, no, it made them cry. Well, we're never potty training. We're never taking them in the car. We're never changing the nappy. know, it's not to avoid it. It's to support them through those changes. And when something like cot settling can be done in such a gradual, gentle, supportive way, it's.
Dr Laura (09:30)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (09:37)
awful and someone's just trying to label it all as cry it out. β because it does just, it just brings up so much fear for parents like, maybe this is what I'm doing is harmful. β when what they're doing is actually really wonderful supportive parenting and you know, there need not be any fear or worry at all.
Dr Laura (09:40)
Yes.
Yeah.
And I think also what has happened is that the groups have really focused on those awful situations many, many years ago where children, babies and toddlers were left to cry in orphanages, in cots for hours and hours at a time, morning, noon and night, yeah, for days and months on end, and the word neglected.
Dr Fallon (10:11)
Mmm.
Days β
Dr Laura (10:23)
studies have been conducted of those individuals who had their early start in life in such places. And yeah, they have psychological damage. They have been damaged and they are needing all kinds of supports to facilitate them participating in everyday life β as they have got older.
Dr Fallon (10:36)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (10:52)
That is not what is happening in the home generally of parents β in Australia, in the UK, in other loving β environments, you most parents are very, very loving. β And they, however, are so fearful because these groups have taken that those very real findings of what happens when children are neglected and are
Dr Fallon (11:19)
Mmm, neglected.
Dr Laura (11:20)
They're neglected, yeah.
And they are left in their cots to cry out for, as you say, weeks, months. And then they are taking those findings and trying to put them into the situation of babies and toddlers and loving homes and saying, if you do anything, it's It's as bad as leaving a child for months in a cot crying, being neglected. And it's just fear mongering. And then we find that parents are, yeah, just very, very scared of
Dr Fallon (11:34)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:50)
causing damage to their children. And it's just really the two things are just not comparable.
Dr Fallon (11:57)
It's so maddening, isn't it? Like it's just so wildly unethical and it's often dressed up as these people kind of dress it up like, we care so much about all the babies and we care so much about the parents. know, when you look at what's being said, you're not helping anyone. You know, you're really not. And no, no good quality health professional is going to
Dr Laura (12:12)
Yeah.
No.
Dr Fallon (12:27)
blanket, β you know, ban or disparage every possible approach to solving what are very real problems. mean, let's not forget that sleep disorders exist. There are diagnostic manuals. These are real things. β and no good health professional, no ethical health professional is going to just be like, no, we, you know, we don't, shouldn't do any of that. I think that is a really good red flag to look out for.
Dr Laura (12:39)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (12:53)
β
you know, it'd be like someone saying, β no, shouldn't treat diabetes at all. Let nature take its course. Like, I'm sorry, what? Like that would sound unhinged. And that's what is happening in this situation as well, because often this advice has a drastically awful impact on parent mental health. and can really impact babies and toddlers as well. If they are, you know, just waking up a hideous number of times per night, they're never getting.
Dr Laura (13:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (13:22)
quality rest, they're always exhausted. And their parents are just, you know, an exhausted shell of themselves, where often those parents will say, know I'm not able to parent very effectively. And I'm not being the loving parent I want to be because I'm just at the end of my tether. Yeah.
Dr Laura (13:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mm. Yeah.
So if you are not putting your child into their cot at night, walking out, shutting the door and leaving them until morning, if you're not doing that, you are not doing cry it out.
Dr Fallon (13:53)
Yeah, to be very, very clear. Yeah, that's exactly it. And you know, you're doing whatever it is you're doing. If you are, maybe you're putting your baby down, you're waiting a couple of minutes to see, like give them time. they, can they get themselves off to sleep? They're going to fuss a bit. They might cry a bit. If you are monitoring them, keeping an eye on them, you're doing a great job. You're doing a really good job. You're supporting them to get used to something different.
Dr Laura (13:55)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:18)
but it's not something harmful. Falling asleep in a cot doesn't do any kind of harm to a baby. And I think, yeah, often we lose sight of that. So, back to cry it out. So that's where you put your baby down, you leave the entire night, you don't under any circumstances return until morning. We have never ever once suggested that a family does that. Why wouldn't we suggest that, Laura?
Dr Laura (14:24)
No, that's right.
There's just no need. There's no need to do that. We can give our little ones lots and lots of support as they learn what it's like to be in an environment which is new to them. parents mostly prefer to give their babies support as they learn how to fall asleep in their cot. And that's absolutely fair enough.
Dr Fallon (14:46)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (15:13)
And we can give them advice about what kind of support they would feel happy to give their babies. Do they want to get them very drowsy in their arms first before putting them down? Do they want to pop them in the bassinet before they're asleep and gently rock their bodies or pat them or stroke their faces? Do they want to just sit beside the cot for 30 seconds before they pat them again? What is it that is going to be useful for them? How are they going to feel?
Dr Fallon (15:21)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (15:42)
comfortable, are they, what approach are they going to be able to commit to? And we know that babies don't learn any quicker being left for long periods of time alone in their cot. It just simply is not necessary in the vast majority of cases to leave babies by themselves for long stretches in their cot.
Dr Fallon (15:50)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. There's such a, you know, if we think about it, excuse me, there being sort of two ends of a continuum where you've got doing absolutely nothing at one end. So maybe your baby is, you know, waking up six, seven, eight times per night. β You're exhausted, sleep's very fragmented and you do absolutely nothing. So you just put up with that. You continue going with that.
that's down one end of the spectrum, just kind of doing nothing. And then way up the other end is cry it out, which is really putting them in the room, walking away and that's it. You know, I think so often in the online space, we're told that they're the options, do nothing or do cry it out, which again, totally absurd. There are a hundred shades of gray in between those two. And any good health professional is going to help you explore.
Dr Laura (16:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (16:59)
all those shades of gray to find, which one of these I'm just articulating a lot, aren't I? It's a bit stupid in the context of a podcast, but anyway, maybe the 10 people who watch on YouTube will enjoy it. β but yeah, our job is to help you as a parent work out which one of these shades of gray is the best fit for your baby and their temperament and their sleep needs. Which one feels like something you can commit to consistently so that you, you know,
Dr Laura (17:03)
Yes.
you
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (17:27)
It's, it's, we're not, you know, chopping and changing all the time and confusing the baby. β that's, that's the role. So that's why I say anyone who just rules out a whole bunch of approaches, β is a little crazy and it is a bit of a red flag because it just, that's, that's wild to me. Like our job is to help parents find what feels manageable for them and their baby.
Dr Laura (17:44)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (17:51)
So having said that, you know, there are so many different approaches. We really specialize in those shades of gray and helping parents find what's going to work for them and their baby to have really, really good sleep health. And that's the goal at the end of the day. But I think it's what's really interesting is to talk about when cry it out might be appropriate. And I think a lot of listeners are we going, what? No, it's never appropriate. And I totally hear you on that. But then I heard something one day, it's something you learnt Laura through your training.
Dr Laura (17:57)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (18:19)
And
I was like, β that is a really, really good point that they might very, very rarely there might actually be a situation where that approach could be suggested by a sleep doctor. So tell us more about that.
Dr Laura (18:31)
Yeah.
Yeah. So as you say, very rare. We never suggest using it. But there may be some really extenuating circumstances where it is appropriate. And those situations would be perhaps in out of home care situations, foster care situations, where the child is likely to lose their placement. The placement is likely to fail if they continue to have
the really fragmented sleep, which is then impacting the whole household. Now, when we think about a out of home care or foster care placement failing, what we are thinking about is a child who has already β a fragmented family base, they're already a very vulnerable child.
who may have been placed in a loving foster home, perhaps along with siblings trying to keep all the children together. And they have been placed with a trusted foster caregiver. And the systems around this child are doing everything to keep them alongside their siblings and in a loving appropriate home.
when that fails, that can mean that the child loses being with their siblings, loses being with a loving registered caregiver. And in those instances, it can not only do damage to the child losing those connections, it can also do damage to the caregiver, the foster caregiver who wants to provide care to this child, but
the poor sleep, you know, and sometimes, you know, if that is six, eight, 12 times a night on repeat for weeks and months on end, they are really suffering too. often foster carers will have more than one foster child in their care. there's a whole, β there's more than one person being impacted. And that parent then is having to think,
how can I support the majority in this household situation? And in that situation, if one of the options is either I send this child, this foster placement fails and the foster organization has to find another home for this child, or I do cry out. At that point, know, it's it's a really, they're caught between a rock and a hard place.
Dr Fallon (21:02)
Hmm. Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (21:27)
So as you can see, it's a really extenuating circumstance that in that type of situation where the two choices are so awful, there may be a place to use cry out. It's the best of two evils in that situation.
Dr Fallon (21:37)
Mmm.
Yeah. I think you've described that really, really well, Laura. And I think also it's usually not practitioner driven that decision. It's usually a foster carer saying, I am done. I cannot do one more night. I cannot do something gradual. I cannot do something, you know, supportive. I'm so done with this. And they're asking for permission. Can I just put this child down and not go back in? In which case a practitioner would be saying you can.
Dr Laura (21:55)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (22:17)
but monitor them, have a monitor, keep an eye on them. If things are getting too out of control, this is what you're gonna do. But it predominantly is caregiver driven, that kind of decision. And we've worked with foster families. It's not that every foster family gets to this point. β Most of the foster families we've worked with have chosen one of those shades of gray where they're giving some support and they're helping them make that transition.
Dr Laura (22:25)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
No.
Dr Fallon (22:43)
And that's worked beautifully. So these are really very, very rare circumstances. I'm ummed and ahhed about whether or not we would even touch on that in this podcast, because I'm just probably a bunch of trolls waiting to come for our necks But the reason why I bring it up is because I really trust our listener base. And I think that they will find this, sort of discussion interesting, but I think it really opens eyes because
Dr Laura (22:51)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:07)
it's very easy to just look at your version of parenting and think, why I would never do cry it out. So why would anyone? And I think it's a really important thing that we, as parents, start to think about the fact that everybody is having a very, very different experience of things. And it really comes back to just, we can't judge parents for the decisions that they make. You know, everybody's kind of, you know, following their own path, I guess.
Dr Laura (23:21)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (23:34)
and I think that it is helpful to think that, yeah, sometimes there are extremely extenuating circumstances, which is why, β you know, we're not going online and saying, cry it out is absolutely the worst thing in the world because we acknowledge that whilst extremely rare, sometimes there can be a place for something like that. β yeah. So I hope this discussion has been interesting and maybe as a listener, it's opened your eyes a bit to thinking about.
Dr Laura (23:51)
Mm. Yeah.
you
Dr Fallon (24:00)
how you use that term, cry it out. Do we really wanna let the anti-cot settling people have their way and kind of, you know, let's start to use that term properly. If you say cry it out, make sure you explain what you mean, you know, and really use it correctly. β Because I think we can all working together, start to really turn the tide on how that term is used. And we'll be able to stop people from using it incorrectly to refer to any kind of cot settling.
Dr Laura (24:07)
Mm. β
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (24:28)
β And I think that takes a bit of power back away from those groups that seem really intent on, you know, telling what, you know, telling parents what to do using fear mongering tactics. β And I'm all for that. I think we need to take back that power. Yeah. Is there anything you'd add to that discussion, Laura?
Dr Laura (24:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Definitely.
No, I don't think so. Yeah, I hope as you do that it's interesting for our listeners. And yeah, as I say, the vast majority of our listeners aren't going to be using cry it out. We do not suggest using cry it out. And that said, working on
cot settling where there can be crying because you're changing how a child goes to sleep when they prefer a different method is absolutely appropriate. And there are those shades of grey that you can choose from that are going to suit your family and your child's temperament. And that's absolutely fine.
Dr Fallon (25:28)
Love it. What a great way to, to round that out. All right. Well, we've got a few parent questions this week. Not too many, which is interesting for a change. don't have sort of 14. think we've got about, what have we got? Four. Gosh, that feels so manageable. It's like the early days. Love it. All right. Yeah. Go for it.
Dr Laura (25:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, does. Yeah. Shall I kick us off? Yeah.
So Claire and Jason have written in and they have a six month old baby. They're using supported accelerated approach and they have chosen to wean off the dummy and used that support accelerated approach to support with that and they've had noticeable improvements. That's great. So.
they are now working on reducing night feeds from two or three a night to just the one. Because they found that when the baby was having lots of feeds overnight, it was impacting his morning appetite. And we do see that quite often, that lots of feeds means babies aren't interested in their brekkie. So their current strategy is to settle their baby if he wakes up before 1am using the Supporter Accelerated approach.
Dr Fallon (26:24)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (26:38)
then they offer him a feed the first time he wakes up after one. But they're a bit concerned that this inconsistency might be confusing their baby. So they want to know, is it confusing that sometimes he's settled using Supported Accelerated, but once a night he's fed when he wakes? Or is it appropriate to carry on doing what they're doing?
Dr Fallon (27:02)
I really love this question. And the short answer is no, it's probably not confusing. So the circadian rhythm includes calorie intake, not just sleep. So by feeding it sort of 1am or later, your baby's circadian rhythm is kind of picking up on there being some calories coming.
you know, at 1am or some time afterwards. So often when parents practice something like this for a week, their baby's body starts to kind of figure out, okay, I don't really need to wake before one. There's not really anything interesting on offer. There's certainly no feeds, no calories. And so they're more likely to resettle and then wake later in the night when their body is β expecting those calories. So you've approached that perfectly Claire and Jason by just having a clear time. I always suggest this to parents because it's like
Dr Laura (27:40)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (27:47)
If your baby wakes up, you glance at the clock and you kind of go, β no, this is a resettle. And in that case, you might send in the non breastfeeding parent to do the resettle. Often they respond a bit better to that than if the breastfeeding parent turns up and doesn't offer the feed. And yeah, and it just makes it easy. You glance at the clock, you immediately know whether or not you're going to do the feed and then you do it. Having said that, there are some babies where for as long as there's one feed overnight,
Dr Laura (27:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (28:13)
They just seem to keep waking up all the time checking. it time yet? Is it time yet? Is it time yet? β and in those cases, that's when we would suggest, you know, if they're old enough, they're gaining weight. Well, they're on solid foods. It's probably time to wean that last overnight feed. And then a couple of nights later, they tend to just be sleeping through really nicely. So yeah, long answer. the short answer is that no, it's, it's absolutely fine. What you're doing.
Dr Laura (28:14)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yeah, good. All right. β Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:41)
Hmm. Okay, shall I read out Tom's question?
So Tom has a two year old son who began waking three or four times a night with distressed crying for up to an hour, starting around four months ago. He'd previously been sleeping through the night from 14 months of age. After using the Somveil toddler program, his night wakes reduced to just one or none and settling became a lot quicker.
Tom says last week they moved him into a bunk bed with his older sister and since then he hasn't woken once. His sleep need has even increased by 30 minutes. He's getting about 30 minutes extra a day. Obviously loves to share the room with his sister, which is lovely. So Tom wants to know, is this just a coincidence or maybe were they actually dealing with some separation anxiety? β I guess over those months when he was waking quite a lot, you know, could there have been separation anxiety that
Dr Laura (29:24)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (29:39)
they just weren't recognizing. What do you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (29:40)
Hmm.
I think that β it was probably a coincidence, obviously without knowing all of the ins and outs of what was happening. The fact that your son was waking up multiple times and taking an hour to resettle overnight, it's really indicative to me that there was something not quite right about the sleep pressure.
Because even if it had been an anxiety issue, a length of time that's so extended overnight is unlikely due to a anxious response. So I think probably using the toddler program, you were able to determine what his sleep needs were.
Dr Fallon (30:08)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:34)
And you helped to drive up that sleep pressure, which then made it easier for him to resettle more quickly overnight. That said, some children do just love company. And when they are in the β new room with their sibling, does feel a little bit, for some children, it can feel a little bit nicer, a little bit more cozy. β And it doesn't mean that they had the separate
Dr Fallon (30:58)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:03)
separation anxiety beforehand, it's just this is quite nice sleeping with a sibling. And then you might find that that a child who is in a room with a sibling can happily doze or lie quietly in bed for a little bit longer. Whilst looking across or looking or knowing that the older sister is just on the mattress below them. They don't have that urge to get up really quickly to go and play and find their sibling at somewhere else in the house.
Dr Fallon (31:07)
Yeah.
Yes. Yeah. I think never underestimate the power of the influence of an older sibling. think often we forget that, you know, this child is two years old. So really understanding what's going on around him. And if he's noticed that his sister is quiet in bed, sleeping all night, there's that real power of the social influence where a two year old will start to go, Ooh, I want to fit in amongst my peers. And we see this at childcare all the time.
Dr Laura (31:33)
So that could be why.
Mmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (32:02)
Like these toddlers who
normally like scream and carry on and have big tantrums at nap time at childcare. They're like, Ooh, better not do that. No one else is doing that. I'll just be this lovely, calm child who goes to sleep nicely. And of course parents are completely like flummox like what on earth. β so I think maybe this two year old has just gone, β in this environment, we don't wake up and call out a lot. We sleep quietly and they kind of.
Dr Laura (32:10)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (32:27)
often are looking up to their older sibling as an example that they want to follow because they want to be like the big kid too. Yeah, it's very interesting these sorts of dynamics that arise when you've got multiple children. I've definitely seen that in my own family, you know, the way the three kids I've got will sort of influence each other and what they do. So look, Tom, I'm just thrilled to hear that you've got a two year old who's sleeping so nicely.
Dr Laura (32:36)
Hmm.
Yes
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (32:52)
And
you've got them in the same room together and they're doing well because I think there are some lovely sibling bonds that really flourish when siblings share rooms. β Not always possible to have them together, but it sounds like it's gone really well for you, which is brilliant.
Dr Laura (33:07)
Yeah, awesome. Okay, so we have a question from another Claire. This is Claire E. So Claire has a toddler who is three years and three months old, who is sometimes skipping her daytime nap. So on no nap days, they put her to bed at 6.30 to 6.45, because she's really quite cranky and seems really tired.
Dr Fallon (33:18)
Cough
Dr Laura (33:36)
from around 5 pm. But Claire says this results in early morning wake-ups between 4.45 and 5 am. That's no fun for anyone. When she naps, her bedtime is later. It's more like 7.45 to 8 pm and she typically slept for 10 hours a night and the nap used to be 30 or 40 minutes long. So Claire wants to know
On days without a nap, should they push bedtime later, for example to 7.30 to try and avoid the early wakes or would this risk over tiredness?
Dr Fallon (34:18)
Okay, there's a lot I want to unpack with this one. β So let's start with overtiredness and let's just throw it in the bin because we don't need to worry about overtiredness in a three year old. Really we worry about overtiredness in babies under 12 weeks of age and the older they get, the less we care about overtiredness because over time they're building up sleep pressure. So even if they become really cranky and overawed and not very fun to be around.
Dr Laura (34:21)
Mmm.
haha
Dr Fallon (34:47)
they've got that increase in sleep pressure or sleep drive that is going to help them fall asleep. At over three years of age, I would say it's just time, you know, if she's sometimes not having a nap and other times is having a nap, it's just time to cut the nap so that you can get some consistency and we don't have bedtime then just moving around all over the place. So I would probably go with just cutting that nap and what you'll find is it will be hard at first, be some days when she really wants it.
Dr Laura (35:03)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (35:16)
β seems to really need it, but push through without it. And you can teach her circadian rhythm that we just don't have that opportunity to nap anymore. And she's probably going to do better just having a consistently longer nighttime period of sleep. It'll consolidate. β you know, she'll in all likelihood adjust really well to that. β I think the, the other question then that Claire E has is how do we move that bedtime later so that wake up is also later.
Dr Laura (35:22)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (35:45)
Cause it's, it's going to be tricky at first. What I would say is try not to be scared when you're toddler or preschooler actually is getting really tired at that 5pm mark because a lot of kids become very hangry at that time. It's a combination of my body is feeling really tired. I've got all this physical fatigue. I'm really hungry. My body is expecting pretty soon to be having what's usually the biggest meal of the day. β and it's just normal for them to just be at the end of their tether by the end of the day.
Dr Laura (35:58)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (36:14)
So
it is completely safe and fine to start pushing that bedtime gradually later. So if it's currently mostly around 6.30 PM, then for a few days, you're going to aim for 6.45 PM after another few days. And this is with dropping the nap. Then you're going to aim for 7 PM. You're just going to keep shuffling it along and know that it doesn't matter how overwrought she is in the lead up to bedtime. It's actually really unlikely that it's going to have a drastic impact on the quality of the nights.
Dr Laura (36:30)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:41)
Nights might
go up and down a little bit temporarily, but she'll move past that and before you know it, she'll be sleeping straight through to morning again. I've gone down all the garden paths, Laura. Is there anything you'd add to that one?
Dr Laura (36:49)
Yeah.
Yeah,
just to highlight to Claire that on the days that her three year old is having a nap, it's only sometimes a 30 minute 40 minute nap anyway. So it's not like you're reducing, you know, cutting out a two hour stretch of sleep in the middle of the day. She really is just down to a very short nap anyway, one sleep cycle. So
Dr Fallon (37:12)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:21)
It's unlikely that it's going to be really tricky for very long. If it was a two hour nap, we would be titrating it down. Rather than going from two hours to none anyway. she's very nearly there herself, Claire. And sometimes what would be happening now, I imagine, is she's having that nap.
Dr Fallon (37:34)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (37:44)
on some days, then she goes to bed a bit later, which means she wakes up a bit later. And then she doesn't have the sleep drive to have the nap the next day, which means that she goes to bed a bit earlier, which means she wakes up really early, which means that you then see her as tired in the middle of the day, and you give her the nap. And you're just on that roller coaster at the moment. So just think to yourself, when is it going to suit me to be able to manage with a slightly cranky preschooler for a
Dr Fallon (38:00)
Yes!
Yeah.
Dr Laura (38:12)
you know, up to, five, five days maybe, and pick that week and then say, that's it, no nap, then do the shuffling the bedtime like Falon's just described.
Dr Fallon (38:19)
Mmm.
Yeah, I think that's really, really good advice. All right. And our next question comes in from someone with a beautiful Irish name and I'm going to take a guess at how to pronounce it. And then Laura, with your Irish heritage, you can tell me how terribly wrong I got it. Okay. My guess is, is it Eve?
Dr Laura (38:40)
I think it's Aife.
Dr Fallon (38:42)
Aife. see, I saw the F and I was like, I think an F is, I should know my name is Fallon actually. So that's Irish. So I should know that Fs are normally Fs. Okay Aife. Okay. And Aife can let us know if we butchered it. Yeah.
Dr Laura (38:48)
Yeah, you, yes.
That's how I would have pronounced it. actually, I've always thought
that's ether. But then again, maybe it's not. I will probably get some messages. I'm really tempted to go into the how do you pronounce Google there. Me too. β
Dr Fallon (39:03)
Yeah. Do you know how often I'm on that website before appointments try to like, yeah. And sometimes I'll pronounce
their name right and I'll check with them and it's some really unusual name. And they're so impressed that I, yeah. And I'm like, yeah, that's from Belarus, isn't it? And they're like, yes. How did you know? I'm like, just, just new. It's actually the internet.
Dr Laura (39:21)
β My
oldest friend, not in her age, we went to school together, but her name is Siobhan. she's, her whole life, people call her all strange versions. And sometimes I call her Siobhan, just for a laugh. Hi, Siobhan. So yeah, and one of my children, and actually one of your children as well, has a name that's a little bit more unusual.
Dr Fallon (39:39)
Yeah. Just for laughs.
Dr Laura (39:51)
So I think when you're aware of what it's like for people around you that you love to have their name mispronounced, it does make you a little bit more aware of others and how it might feel for them. there we with so yes, so I should I had just assumed it was Aife. Aife, let us know Aife or Aife.
Dr Fallon (39:51)
Hmm.
Yeah, and trying to get it right.
We'll probably find out it's like something completely different, but anyway, we're doing our best. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (40:16)
It's Maeve.
Ha ha.
Dr Fallon (40:23)
β
gosh. All right. So Aife is a mother to a nine month old who has been self settling for naps and bedtime since about four and a half months of age. Thanks to Sombal. Lovely Aife says despite this, her baby is now waking more frequently overnight and is very difficult to resettle without a feed. The usual resettling technique is no longer as effective.
And even when her baby is resettled, she often wakes again within minutes after noticing that Aife isn't there. Aife is wondering what can they do to improve overnight resettling without relying on feeding given the baby's increasing difficulty and frequent wake ups.
Dr Laura (41:06)
Okay, so β I sometimes feel a little bit like a stuck record, but I think what would be a really good place for you to start, Ether, is to β log your baby's sleep again and see what the current sleep need is. In all likelihood, β your baby's sleep need is going to be very different from when they were four and a half months old. So at nine months of age, I'd be thinking about
your child just having the two naps during the day. So if they're still on three naps, I'd be reducing it to two naps. And then looking to see how you divvy up that sleep need across those two naps and the night time, because your baby knows how to go to sleep independently at the start of the night and for their naps. So
if they could maintain their sleep overnight, in all likelihood they would. So I would be thinking that maybe there's something a little bit off about the sleep pressure, which means that it's a bit harder for your baby to maintain their sleep independently, which has meant that they have then called out to you for more support overnight than they previously did. And then when you've tried to use your settling approach.
Dr Fallon (42:11)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (42:30)
that you previously used to improve their sleep. just hasn't had the same impact because, you know, even if you are like, actually, I was gonna say, even if you are feeding to sleep, they can't maintain their sleep, which is exactly what you are, you're experiencing. So even when you are giving like the ultimate support to go back to sleep, your baby cannot then maintain their sleep when you put them back down in the cot. So I would be double checking that daily rhythm.
Dr Fallon (42:56)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (42:59)
working on reducing the nap frequency, the nap duration, or making sure bedtime and wake up is appropriate, doing that for a few days first, and you might find that then the overnight wakes fall away. If you don't, then I would be at that point coming back in and using the same settling approach again that you previously have used, because with higher sleep pressure, your baby's more likely to
adjust more quickly and be able to tolerate going back to sleep in that way rather than relying on feeding.
Dr Fallon (43:37)
Yeah, I think you're exactly right, Laura. There's definitely a sleep pressure component to things. Once you build up that sleep pressure, you know, based on β I'm imagining this baby's probably had a bit of a drop in their sleep needs, and we just need to quickly adapt the schedule to fit whatever the new sleep needs are. Once you've worked on that for a few days to a week, then think about that with that settling approach, I'm wondering if Aife might be usually staying in the room until her baby's asleep.
Dr Laura (43:51)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (44:05)
And so this baby's now cottoned on to, if I can delay falling asleep, I can kind of keep mum in the room. And sometimes they just doze instead of getting into a sleep cycle, they doze a bit so they can kind of monitor what mum or dad is up to. So once that sleep pressure is high enough again, often I'll say to parents, it might be the first nap of the day if that's a pretty easy settle, just practice wandering out of the room after you put them down, because if the baby can self settle, they probably don't really need you there. And often parents are really surprised, they're like, oh, I thought it'd be really hard, but.
Dr Laura (44:11)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (44:34)
I wandered out of the room, went to use the bathroom and they were just asleep and it was fine and easy. So it might just be her needing a little bit of practice. Yeah, falling asleep without you in the room. And then hopefully the nights will really come together. Amazing. Oh, it was so nice to just go through parent questions at a more relaxed pace. I've loved this. It's been really good. I feel like next week we'll probably have like 25 questions or something. We'll be back to our usual frenetic pace. But yeah, we'll see how we go.
Dr Laura (44:44)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes! Me too!
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (45:03)
Thank you to everyone who has, you know, liked our posts, shared our posts, left a lovely comment, you know, or subscribed to the podcast. We are so grateful to everybody who supports what we do. And we hope that you found today's episode really valuable. And maybe you've had that bit of a mind blown moment learning what cry it out actually means. You can go out there and kind of spread the word so that more parents learn about these things.
Dr Laura (45:25)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (45:31)
And don't let people who'd wink you into thinking that any cot settling approach is cry it out. We just simply can't equate the two. If you love what we do, please buy us a coffee. We'll put the link in the bio or in the, not in the bio, what is it? The show notes. We'll put the link in the show notes for you. β Leave us a review. Come and join Sombelle if you're needing some support.
Dr Laura (45:37)
Mm-hmm.
Show notes.
Dr Fallon (45:55)
we actually, if you're a Sombelle member, you can book in for coaching calls and there's quite a lot of availability right now. I think if you wanted to see me this week, you probably still can. I think there are a few there, β which is pretty rare. I'm usually not available on short notice. So if you're needing that support, do reach out and book in. β and yeah, if you're not subscribed to the podcast yet, please do it. β because it all helps in our mission to get really good education about sleep out there to parents. So thanks everyone for tuning in and you'll hear from us again next week.
Dr Laura (46:04)
Mm.
No.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
