Fallon Cook (00:37)
Dummies or pacifiers can be a lifesaver for exhausted parents. Some babies and toddlers find it comforting to suck and their dummy becomes part of their strategy for staying calm and even falling asleep. But dummies don't come without their controversies. We've met many parents who feel unsure about whether they should give their baby a dummy and how they might eventually wean them off their dummy.
Today, we're going to provide the sensible middle ground so you can make an educated decision about whether to give your baby a dummy. Plus, we're going to give you strategies for gently weaning the dummy when the time comes.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway.
And we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, how are you going this evening?
Dr Laura (01:45)
Yeah, good. Thank you. Regular listeners may have noticed that we didn't have a episode last week and that's because you've been pretty under the weather and we're keeping everything cross that your voice lasts for this episode, Fallon
Fallon Cook (01:56)
You
I know.
Did you like how I like really tried to hide my croakiness in that intro? I was trying to be extra peppy. Let's see if I can keep it up. β I know was just all these bugs going around at the moment. I'm sure parents can relate. My kids bought home a bug and we've just everybody in the house has had a turn of it and it's horrible. It's just one of these ones that really lingers. So it has made it really hard to, β to juggle work and family and
Dr Laura (02:04)
Yeah, you did. was thinking, β
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (02:27)
Our renos are going on. It's been a complete circus. So yes, now we are here at half-past eight at night trying to record the podcast after hours whilst, um, you know, I've got my husband putting the kids off to bed and yours are patiently waiting for their bedtime. And, uh, this is how it goes sometimes, isn't it?
Dr Laura (02:32)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, they are. Yes.
Yeah, that's right. And I'm sure that a lot of our listeners understand that feeling as well. β even if we present as completely together and our lives are, β yeah, they're just as challenging as everybody else.
Fallon Cook (02:57)
You
So true. Well, let's talk about dummies. Cause I think it's something that comes up, you know, quite a lot. get a lot of questions about dummies and yeah, I certainly notice in the sort of online space, there are really conflicting bits of information. there's people out there saying, no, they're terrible. And there's other people saying, yeah, they're amazing. You've got to have one. β And of course you've got that sort of divide amongst the generations about, you know, the
Dr Laura (03:12)
Mmm.
Mmm.
yeah.
Fallon Cook (03:31)
There's going to be lots of mother-in-laws, I think, who will be like, just give the baby a dummy. β So yeah, it's an easy one to feel confused about. But I'm wondering, Laura, did you use a dummy for your kids?
Dr Laura (03:37)
Mm-hmm.
one of them, yes, the other one, no. And I remember being really, disappointed with the one who didn't use the dummy. β came into the, came into motherhood thinking, yeah, again, just really driven by the, β just people around me and what happened in my own family, that dummies are not a thing to do. So I was β just with no knowledge at all about dummies, but so that's what I.
Fallon Cook (03:48)
Mm-hmm.
you
Hehehehe
Dr Laura (04:13)
I felt, no, I'm not going to use it. not going to use it. Didn't know why, but everyone was telling me not to use it. And then I finally like cracked and said, that's it. I'm going to offer her the dummy, offered her the dummy and she refused it. then I, and then I was devastated. Oh, oh my goodness. I thought that was going to be my get out of jail free card. And she wasn't interested. then, yeah. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (04:25)
Hehehehe
Isn't that just stereotypical parenthood of like thinking
things will go one way and then of course it's just the absolute opposite.
Dr Laura (04:42)
Yeah,
absolutely. Whereas the other, my other one had reflux and we found that the dummy really helped and he always loved his dummy right from the get-go and it really helped with the pain that he was feeling whilst we got the reflux under control. Yeah, what about yours, Fallon? Did yours use dummies?
Fallon Cook (04:57)
Hmm.
Yeah, all three of mine did. One of mine gave it up all on their own, like just randomly decided about four or five months, I think, that they didn't want it anymore. β and use their thumb instead, cause that's often the thing, the ones who really love to suck. If they decide for whatever reason, they're not having their dummy or the dummies taken away, they'll find their hands. They just will. β and my other two absolutely loved their dummies and it was a lifesaver because
Dr Laura (05:06)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (05:28)
I
didn't have family close by to come in and help on the hard days. So if I was sort of parenting solo or I was unwell or the kids were unwell, β or just on car rides and things like that, when they're a bit crabby and difficult, being able to give them something that they were quite attached to and got a lot of relief from was really, really handy. so yeah, I think it helped a lot, like, and I feel sorry for you that one of yours didn't take one because
Dr Laura (05:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mmm.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (05:57)
It is just a, you know, for the ones who love a dummy, they are just, they really are life savers, they?
Dr Laura (05:58)
Yeah.
Yeah, which brings us to one of the first points that we were going to talk about, which is what are the benefits of dummy use? Did you want to just talk through that, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (06:13)
Mmm.
Yeah, so I reckon most parents would say, yeah, the ones who use dummies like it because it's easier to settle their baby for sleep. So babies who love dummies, they're really using the suckling as one of their strategies for soothing themselves and calming down. And usually they're really wanting it at sleep time. So for parents who are having trouble with sleep, often they're like, the dummy is really helpful and just helping my baby wind down and get off to sleep. β
Dr Laura (06:33)
Mm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (06:42)
Sort of like I was saying earlier, like those tricky moments, β the dummy is the sort of the, it can be the constant for your baby. So if they go to childcare, you know, lots of change around them, but if they can go and take their dummy, it's almost a bit like a comfort item in so many ways. It can make those transitions a little easier on them. β And yeah, of course, if they're unwell, it can just be a real, a real good one for just, yeah, giving them that bit of comfort that
Dr Laura (06:50)
you
you
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (07:10)
Sometimes we just can't give, β know, we've got our hands full, you've got multiple babies, β can be pretty challenging. There's also like some research that suggests that babies who use dummies have a lower risk for SIDS. β Not because they're magical. I highly suspect it's because when dummies fall out, they wake up babies. And so they probably just tend to be a little bit more wakeful during those months where SIDS is something we need to be more concerned about.
Dr Laura (07:17)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (07:40)
β
But yeah, what benefits did you find Laura?
Dr Laura (07:44)
yeah, well, as I was mentioning with one of my children who had reflux, β the suck sucking on a dummy just really helped. β I think just with the saliva going down the, the food pipe, and, β you know, in those early months when, β the, all the sphincters and valves and whatnot, β a little bit immature, β it just helps, β
Fallon Cook (07:58)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (08:15)
with the burning, suppose. And then he just became really enamoured with this dummy and loved to use it for all his naps and at night time. And yeah, it was just one of those things which he really enjoyed. He wasn't interested in a comforter, but he really loved having his dummy in the cot and would put quite a few dummies in the cot so that he could always find one overnight when he got older.
Fallon Cook (08:19)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (08:43)
And yeah, he just absolutely loved it. And yeah, it just made his settling a bit easier and just helped him calm at bedtime. And it was part of his bedtime routine, popping that dummy in and snuggling up. So yeah, I found it very, very helpful.
Fallon Cook (09:00)
Mmm.
that's so good. And of course there are a few downsides with dummy use. Like I know there are people in the sleep space who just absolutely say, get rid of the dummy. You know, don't like you, you've got to get rid of the dummy. There's no other option. You know, they really, really hate them. So let's maybe talk through some of the downsides that are good for parents to be across because, and what you've probably already noticed, you know, if you're listening in is that we're not saying, you know, a clear yes or no on dummy use. Like every decision you make for your baby.
Dr Laura (09:09)
Mmm
Mmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (09:33)
there are going to be multiple viewpoints to weigh up and you're the one who can make the right call for your child. We can't make that for you. β But I think having all the facts and all the information just means you can make a really educated choice around which way you go. β And I would say probably what we see, one of the biggest downsides to dummies that you and I encounter in the clinic, Laura, would be that babies really can't replace the dummy themselves until they're around about that seven month mark.
Dr Laura (09:40)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (10:01)
They're
going to need a parent to do it for them. So, so often, not always, but often a dummy will fall out of a baby's mouth at some point during a sleep cycle. And it can mean that they wake up at the end of that cycle. Like with any sleep association, they wake up and go, something's changed since I fell asleep. You know, my dummy's missing and they call out and they want it replaced. And it might be a very brief wake up. A lot of parents are like, it's so quick and easy. I don't care if I have to do it seven times, eight times a night. β But for other parents, it's just too much.
Dr Laura (10:12)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (10:30)
they don't manage it very well. β So that's definitely something to think about, I reckon.
Dr Laura (10:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think, what, β can happen in littler babies when they are coming out of the swaddle is if, if they have been using the dummy, β whilst they've been swaddled and they love it and it's become a sleep association. Then when their arms are out in that period of time where it takes them to get used to having their arms out of the swaddle, they can knock that dummy out, over and over again. And then, β
Fallon Cook (11:01)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (11:05)
I hear parents saying they're sitting there beside the cot, kind of with their hand hovering over the dummy, trying to swat their baby's arms away so that they don't knock the dummy out. So there can be some real rough patches if you do decide to use a dummy. β And β that can really drive your decision making as to whether you continue to use it or not.
Fallon Cook (11:10)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:30)
β so just be aware that if you have a very little baby at the moment and they're swaddled and they are using their dummy, there's something that you may experience when you unswaddled them is that they then are knocking the dummy out of their mouth and you are likely to need to continue to replace it for them, β until they can do it themselves, which yeah, as you say, Fallon is somewhere seven months and older and where they're going to be able to do that. And if they are waking up eight, nine times a night needing you to replace the dummy, then
Fallon Cook (11:43)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (11:59)
It's probably, you're going to have a serious decision to make as to whether the benefits outweigh β the bad side of the dummies in your case.
Fallon Cook (12:04)
Mmm.
Yeah, I think
it's a point where a lot of parents go, we're getting rid of the dummy now, you know, there's sort of that three or four month mark. And they're like, they're knocking it out of their mouth so much. They're unswaddled. I can see how this isn't going to work. And they make that call. But I think, every baby's sort of going to be a little bit different on whether it's too much for you to manage. You know, you really can make a call either way. Your baby will be fine without their dummy. β you know, if you do need to give it up.
Dr Laura (12:26)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (12:38)
β Or you might decide actually the easiest path is to keep it and ride through that little storm until it passes. Another downside of dummy use can be that for some children, definitely not all, but there are a few children or babies, toddlers, who have an increased occurrence of ear infections when they're using a dummy. So it just introduces more bacteria, which can result in ear infections. So if you've got a baby with a dummy who just constantly has ear infections,
Dr Laura (12:38)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (13:07)
That's when
I'd be thinking, β it might be better to get rid of the dummy, because that could be part of the equation. But that is a small number. And I think it really, you can go on a case by case basis. Yeah, it shouldn't be something that sort of frightens parents away. And Laura, this next one, I really want to get your views on because of your history in looking at things like language development in children. I've seen a lot of stuff online where people saying, dummies cause...
Dr Laura (13:12)
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (13:33)
dental issues or speech difficulties or delay language. How much truth is there to that? How worried should parents be?
Dr Laura (13:37)
Mm-hmm.
So I think we take the two issues separately. So thinking about whether there's going to be any dental problems β using dummies. Generally, there's been some, in the last few years, some reviews done of dummy use and β dental caries in children and dental problems in children. And really, we're not seeing, or the research isn't showing, that there's a detrimental effect on...
β teeth unless your child is over the age of it can be two but it's more like four the evidence is much stronger if your child is using their their dummy a lot past the age of four β and using it outside of just sleep time as well so there can be some evidence that it has some impact on how the teeth grow the positioning of the teeth but that is β yeah your child has to be using it a lot and
outside of just sleep time. In terms of speech and language development, what we're thinking about is just using dummies for sleep and settling so that they're not using their dummies. Your child doesn't have their dummy in their mouth all the time during the day because that can impede your ability to understand them and their ability to use their tongue, et cetera, correctly in their mouth.
Fallon Cook (14:38)
you
Hmm.
Dr Laura (15:07)
So really if you're using the dummies correctly and you're limiting the dummy use to sleep time and settling time and any of those really, you know, those difficult times in the day where your child might be very upset or sick, for example, and you want to give them a little bit of extra comfort, they β generally are very safe. So I wouldn't be worrying.
Fallon Cook (15:28)
Excellent. I hope that's really reassuring to parents to hear that. β Yeah, because if you've been using a dummy and you've heard a lot of that misinformation, it can make you feel like, gosh, what have I done? Well, you haven't done anything wrong. β Your baby's going to be fine. So for parents who are like, okay, I've decided I've weighed things up, but actually the dummy is more trouble than it's worth for my baby. And I think I really want to get rid of it. Let's talk through what you might do. Maybe first up.
Dr Laura (15:33)
Yeah, yeah.
Hmm. No. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (15:57)
if we're talking about a baby, then we'll talk about the toddlers. β But I would say, look, when they're a baby, it really is just a case of getting rid of it. of just, mean, luckily they can't argue with you, β but it is more of a cold turkey thing. Sometimes parents are like, is there a gradual way? And I just think, no, that's confusing. It's really confusing for them. If you decide to get rid of the dummy, decide when you're gonna do it.
Dr Laura (16:00)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (16:23)
Make sure their hands are unswaddled because chances are when they don't have the dummy they'll want to suck on their hands and kind of comfort themselves by having their hands up near their face. So we want them to be able to do that. And just know you might need to give them lots of other supports, especially for the first few settles. It might be a lot more cuddling or padding or humming or whatever it's going to take just to help them fall asleep without that sucking. β Can be pretty tricky and I definitely say if you're going to get rid of the dummy,
Dr Laura (16:42)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (16:50)
Do it before six months of age, it does tend to be quite a bit easier when they're a bit littler.
Dr Laura (16:55)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's β a really good time for or an age for parents to have in mind. So if you think you're going to want to get rid of it, try and do it before six months of age before they become really attached to it. Otherwise, you're probably better off waiting until they're a little bit older and then can understand a little bit more about where the dummy has gone when it is time for the dummy to go, which does take us on to toddlers.
Fallon Cook (17:17)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (17:21)
So if you have a toddler who you'd like to stop using the dummy, you know, once they're two, three years of age, you can bring in the idea of the dummy fairy or the Easter bunny or Santa needing to come to collect the dummies for all the new babies at the hospital. And you can collect up the dummies with your toddler and leave them all at the front door or wherever you want to leave them. And then the
Fallon Cook (17:22)
Mm.
Dr Laura (17:50)
Dummy Fairy comes in the night and delivers a big gift in exchange for the dummies. And it can be a really lovely event that your child might remember when they're older as well. And you really paint a picture of it being a really positive thing that your child is doing. And then they're just older, they've got more of a cognitive grasp on things.
Fallon Cook (18:08)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (18:13)
when you can create a little story such as the dummy fairy. And I think you did that for yours, is that right, Fallon? You did something similar.
Fallon Cook (18:17)
Yeah. I did
β one of mine, β Santa, he was very lucky. Santa came and actually I dropped the dummies off to Santa and Santa gave me this lovely gift bag and it had something he could cuddle if he was sad and missing his dummy and probably just some other bits of plastic junk, something that looked really interesting and exciting. I think there were some lollies or treats or something in there as well. β And that worked really well because it was final. It was like.
Dr Laura (18:29)
Okay.
Yeah.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (18:47)
He knew the process. was like, my gosh, if I can get an extra present from Santa. This was in December sometimes. So Santa luckily was hanging out at the shopping center at the time. It was easy to get a hold of. So yeah, just what I often say to parents is I want you to wait until you feel like your child is going to understand the change, is going to get excited about the change. And so it can just be a really positive experience. And they might still have times where they miss it. There might still be some tears.
But I feel like we owe it to our little people to wait until they're really ready. You know, I would say at 18 months of age, you're going to have a really hard time at two and a half. They're going to be like, cool, Santa's bringing a gift or, you know, the, dummy fairy or whatever it is, they can really get into it then. So I think, you know, think about that timing because to your toddler, you've got to remember that the dummy isn't just this thing, you know, that you have to wash a hundred times a day, sterilize and all that.
Dr Laura (19:22)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (19:47)
β to them, it's something they love. They love it. So it's a bit like you're taking a Teddy that they love and throwing it away. Like, so you've really got to time it right when they're starting to form sort of, β you know, attachments and to other comfort items. So they might have, you might notice that they've got some favorite Teddy's and things that they like as well as their dummy. Well, that's when it's time to phase out that dummy and bring in those other things a bit more strongly. β so yeah, I think it can, can be done. β
Dr Laura (19:50)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (20:16)
But definitely we think about the individual child and what they're really ready for. And really importantly, the most important thing, no matter what you do, never go back. You can't go back. Yeah.
Dr Laura (20:22)
Yeah.
Never go back. Never go back. No,
that's right. Just really be careful when you have made that decision that the dummy is going to go and with whatever ploy you have used, be it the dummy fairy, the Easter bunny, something else that you another idea that you've come up with that just really suits your child. What we don't want is for
at the first sign of your child being upset that they really wish that they still had that dummy that then that dummy fairy brings the dummy back because then the horse is bolted and it's a little bit hard to come back from that. Then you're going to have to leave it a little bit of time. Think of a different story because you won't be able to use that Easter bunny anymore because your child has learned that β that doesn't mean it's gone forever. It will come back. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (21:02)
Hmm.
Yeah. And they've realized
that, if I really, really, really, really get worked up, then sometimes, yeah, these things come back and that can set off a bit of a, a horrible pattern where whenever they're not sort of getting exactly what they want, they go straight from zero to 100. And it's not very pleasant as a parent trying to deal with that all the time.
Dr Laura (21:36)
Hmm, no, no. So be
β thoughtful about when is gonna suit you and your family to make that change when you decide to do it. Don't β do it just the day or the week before you're returning to work or the week before they start daycare or some other time you've got house guests coming.
Fallon Cook (21:59)
Hmm. Definitely not
if you're welcoming a new baby. That is the worst time to do it. If you've got a baby on the way, you're to let that toddler have that dummy for a long time yet.
Dr Laura (22:04)
yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. So pick
your time, do it thoughtfully, and then never go back. So the dummy has gone when you've made that decision. This is with toddlers, and then they will need lots of support, lots of cuddles, really, you know, play with that new transitional object that you've given them if that is the way that you've gone for the gift that you've given them. And just respect that that's a really big emotion, a real emotion that they are feeling something that they really loved has now gone.
You've made the decision to take it away. They're not very happy about it. So you need to support them through that big emotion. Loads of cuddles, loads of comfort, loads of acknowledgement that, it is hard. I know it's hard, but we can do hard things. And your little one will come out the other side. Just don't go back.
Fallon Cook (22:59)
Yeah. And your little one is also learning that when I do go through something that feels really big to me and I'm feeling really sad, my parent is there for me. They are there to comfort me. get through things together. We're a team. You know, they're really learning about how strong that connection is. So it is actually a really great point of connection, I think for a lot of families. β good luck everybody who's listening. can be a bit of a roller coaster, but
Dr Laura (23:11)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (23:26)
It's totally fine just to take each day as it comes. If your child has a dummy and you're thinking, my gosh, that sounds horrible. I'm going to have to get rid of it one day. It might all be fine. My kids coped really well because I just knew when it was the right time and they managed it fine. So it's going to be okay. You're going to get through it.
Dr Laura (23:44)
Yeah, awesome. So shall we go on to parent questions now, Fallon? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so Melinda has a five month old who has a 14 hour sleep need β and Melinda is seeing a consistent pattern. So her baby goes to bed around eight o'clock after being awake, β after a two and a half hour wake window, but wakes around midnight.
Fallon Cook (23:50)
Yeah, definitely. Do you want to start with Melinda?
Dr Laura (24:12)
then sleeps for another five or six hours. Despite a large bedtime bottle, her baby is hungry at the midnight wake. Melinda wonders why the first stretch of night sleep is so short when it's typically expected to be the longest. She's tried to extend the last wake window, but hasn't seen a change. So why might their baby have a short first sleep stretch and how can they help lengthen it?
Fallon Cook (24:41)
I really like this question because it sort of speaks to the variability baby to baby. So sleeping from 8pm to around midnight, that is a long stretch of sleep. So your baby is in all likelihood having some of their longer stretches of deeper sleep during that time, Melinda, and I wouldn't be worried at all. I think in Melinda's case, she's saying, well, there's four hours at the start of the night and then it's another five or six hours of solid sleep. And that's perfectly fine. We know during that five or six hour block,
Dr Laura (24:46)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (25:10)
your baby's probably waking up two or three times. but they're looking around, they're going, yeah, everything's fine. I'm not hungry. I'm cool. And they're putting themselves back to sleep again without needing your help. β so that's completely normal. And because your baby's five months old, they might still need that night feed at around midnight for a little bit longer. But I'd say in the next month, you'll probably expect that they'll either drop it or you'll find that, I don't really seem that hungry. And you might start to resettle them at midnight and then feed them a bit later on in the night or
Dr Laura (25:20)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (25:39)
They might even just go through the night without it. So I wouldn't be worried. I think it is in your case, Melinda, that is the shortest stretch of sleep, but it's definitely not short. β I'd be pretty happy with four hours in a row at the start of the night. It's often when babies will first wake. So sounds good to me. What do you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (25:41)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely the same. Melinda, I think it sounds
like your five month old is doing beautifully. They're having that lovely long, a long stretch of sleep at the start of the night, they're having a longer stretch of sleep after their bottle in the middle of the night, totally fine. So you're doing a really good job. Enjoy those, β those nights, Melinda, where it's just that one feed in the night.
Fallon Cook (26:14)
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely. Kiara has emailed, she has a nine month old who mostly sleeps through the night, but Kiara is seeking guidance after a micro nap disrupted bedtime. So their baby took a two minute car nap after dinner, which pushed bedtime to 10.30 PM, which is two hours later than usual. They woke her at the normal time the next morning. Good job. I'm like, I just want to clap for Kiara over here.
Dr Laura (26:25)
Mm-hmm.
β
Yes. β
Fallon Cook (26:48)
And
they plan to keep her nap and bedtime routine on track for consistency. So that's perfect. Kiara asks, when a brief unexpected nap delays bedtime, should they just accept the reduced sleep for that 24 hours and move on? β Or is there something else they should do? She wondered if there's any tips we have for keeping a baby awake during short car rides.
Dr Laura (26:53)
Yeah.
Kiara, it sounds like you have a baby who is exquisitely sensitive to β naps outside of their usual nap time. So yeah, I feel for you a two minute nap push bedtime two hours later. You know, so often Kiara you've probably heard are saying, yeah, that won't have an impact. It's not a full sleep cycle. She'll be right. That's okay. But look, for some babies, they are really astonishingly sensitive.
to these little micro naps, power naps. And it's β baby to baby variation. So you now know that your baby does appear to be exquisitely sensitive. And so I think your follow-up question about how to keep your baby awake is a sensible question to ask.
If you do have a baby that is as sensitive as this, β thinking about if there's anybody that you can have sitting in the back with them to keep them awake, thinking about playing the happy song in the car β or any β other loud or stimulating that, gosh, it's half past, it's nearly nine o'clock now. I'm losing my, I'm having word finding difficulties.
Fallon Cook (28:28)
stimulating, yeah.
Yeah
Dr Laura (28:36)
yeah, stimulating activities, thinking about any toys that they might like to have in the car that's gonna entertain them and try to reduce the chance of that β nap happening. know, once your baby is a toddler, we think about having things like a basket of toys that is just for, or a bag of toys is just for the car because toddlers then are really motivated to stay awake in the car during a car ride if this is the only time they can play with that particular toy.
Fallon Cook (28:43)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (29:05)
But at nine months old, that's not really something that is an β option and it's not appropriate. So, β yes, I think that when it does happen for you, Kiara, did the right thing. Just accept it, move on, just try and keep the daily rhythm β on track β so that you don't have that domino effect of them having a sleep in and then...
everything falling over the next day as well. So keep things on track, move on and it should come good. β And then think about trying to keep your baby awake as much as possible on those short car rides with those tips I just highlighted. Would you add anything else, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (29:32)
you
No, I think that sounds really good. β yep, I completely agree. Yeah. Just don't, don't stress too much if your baby, I think a lot of parents do go, today they didn't get enough sleep. Doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. We have this idea that they've got to get a certain amount, but there's going to be natural variability and they'll be fine. So you can just stick to schedule. Yeah.
Dr Laura (29:51)
Good.
Yeah.
So Catherine has written in, she has a 10 month old baby boy who is resisting his second day nap. So Catherine has recently returned to doing the second nap in the pram, I guess because of this. Her baby has a 12 hour sleep need, sleeps 8pm until 6am overnight and typically has two naps, one that's for an hour and 20 minutes at 10 and the other one for about 40 minutes at 3.
Catherine says that the naps have been shifting later due to longer awake windows and tired signs. So Catherine feels that he isn't ready for only two short naps or dropping to one nap as he becomes cranky after his second nap. So she asks is it too soon to reduce naps and what advice is there for managing this transition?
Fallon Cook (30:57)
Hmm, it sounds like Katherine's baby will probably be quick to move to just one nap at around about that 12 month mark when that you know, if he's already showing these sorts of signs. Okay, so what can we do about this? I would say one option definitely is just to try to short naps and see how he goes. It might mean that bedtime can stay on track. Because often when they're starting to really push their naps quite late and really not wanting the second one.
Dr Laura (31:02)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (31:25)
β it then sort of flows into the night and bedtime. If they do have the second nap bedtime starts to get really, really late. So if you're noticing the bedtime is starting to become a bit more challenging, then I would just go for two shorter naps. so that that's probably what I would be thinking. Definitely a bit too young to go to one nap. β I would be trying for two 40 minute naps first. I'd also be thinking too. It might just be that you do that second nap in the pram.
Dr Laura (31:31)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (31:53)
for a few weeks and then you're like, okay, now I can see they're really ready to just have two short naps. So it might be that you just accept a pram nap for a little while, while it's a bit tricky. β And then after a few weeks when you go, okay, you even the pram naps not really doing it, it's becoming hard to settle them in the pram. Then you reduce that morning nap and you'll probably be able to keep to those two naps for hopefully until 12 months or so. And then you'll just know when he's ready for that one nap. You'll see similar things again with sort of pushing the, you know.
Dr Laura (31:58)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (32:23)
second nap really late or settling will just become harder. β What do you think though Laura?
Dr Laura (32:25)
Mmm.
Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely the right idea. I'd probably keep that second nap for the time being in the pram β for another few weeks and then go for the two short naps and see if you can keep bedtime and wake up the same. β And yeah, by the time your little boy is 12 months old, Catherine, I suspect he'll be on the one nap for an hour and a half or two hours. β
Fallon Cook (32:46)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (32:56)
and you'll have loads of your friends around you who will have babies that still are doing two naps and yours will be absolutely fine. Loving only being on one nap a day.
Fallon Cook (33:07)
Yeah, yeah, it's probably going to go that way. Good though, good job, Katherine. We also have Faye who's emailed in, she has an almost 15 month old boy. Faye recently dropped all overnight feeds cold turkey because she was feeling really overwhelmed by constant night waking. She says her baby's night waking is still unpredictable despite offering no night feeds for the past week.
Dr Laura (33:18)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (33:32)
Faye says her baby was very upset for the first few nights without feeds and this is mostly reduced to mild upset during the night. Faye also says she's exhausted from rocking him back to sleep during the night. I think she was doing that instead of feeding. So now she's co-sleeping instead of rocking him. The cot is in the same room and he used to sleep there but since dropping the night feeds he's co-sleeping so that Faye doesn't have to rock him back to sleep multiple times overnight. So.
Dr Laura (33:47)
Mm.
Fallon Cook (34:02)
Faye asks, is it normal for the adjustment to take longer than three days? Will he eventually sleep through the night in the cot again as he adapts to not having night feats? And is extra reassurance like co-sleeping okay during this transition?
Dr Laura (34:18)
Okay, Faye, you poor thing, you must be absolutely shattered. So, well done for making the decision that overnight feeds would no longer working for you β and making the decision to drop those feeds. So that can be a really momentous β chapter β in your life as a parent, dropping those feeds. So yeah, I just first of all want to congratulate you for doing that and sticking with it.
It does sound like what may have happened, Faye, is that the, β your little one may have had a fee to sleep association and then needed multiple feeds overnight each time he came up into light sleep and needed to be fed back to sleep. And now what is happening is that he no longer has that fee to sleep association, but that was replaced with rocking to sleep.
and that became his new sleep association. So then each time he woke up, he then still needed you to do something. So it wasn't feeding anymore, it was replaced by rocking. And now again, that's not sustainable for you, of course, not in the same way it wasn't sustainable to, know, at 15 months old to still be doing so many feeds overnight. So I can understand that you have moved to co-sleeping.
but I suspect what may be happening is that each time he's waking up into light sleep, he's still needing to touch you, see that you're there. may still be, given that you're still exhausted, you may still be needing to do something, hand on him, maybe rocking his body to help him fall back to sleep. β So in each of these stages, what's happening is that one sleep association is being replaced with another that is still dependent on you. β And β so that would be why it's so exhausting, Faye.
Fallon Cook (36:01)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (36:06)
β And so it is unlikely, I would think, given what you've described, that your toddler is going to be happy or willing or even able to just go to sleep in their cot now and sleep all night without you picking one of those settling approaches in Sombelle to support him to do that. So I would be β really...
strongly suggesting, Fay, that you have a read through the different settling approaches, the cot settling approaches in the toddler program, and pick one that feels right for you. You might want to do one of the really hands-on approaches where you're patting and humming or shushing, or you might want to use a slightly quicker approach where you still have the cots in your room so you can still be right by his side. And at that,
point once you have done some cot settling where your little one is going to sleep in his cot without you having to do as much. That's when you're going to start to see him able to have longer stretches of sleep overnight. And then you of course will also have longer stretches of sleep and will feel so much better in yourself. Yeah, do you have anything to add Fallon?
Fallon Cook (37:22)
I think you hit the nail on the head Laura, that there's a an unhelpful sleep association in the feed to sleep and it's just been replaced with another sleep association that's also unhelpful because this baby is waking up and kind of going where are you? I need your help to fall back asleep again. β So we wouldn't expect the night waking to reduce until that toddler is able to fall asleep without needing all that support so that when they come up into
Dr Laura (37:34)
Yeah
Fallon Cook (37:46)
light sleep and they rouse, kind of do their systems check, is everything okay? He's just going to go, yep, I'm still in my cot where I fell asleep earlier and he should just drift back off to sleep. But it's definitely going to take some practice. It's fine to offer extra reassurance when you're dropping night feeds, but just be mindful of not introducing another sleep association that's going to also be challenging. So I would say when you're, this is just to parents in general, not just to Faye.
Dr Laura (38:09)
you
Fallon Cook (38:14)
When you drop night feeds, be thinking about what approach you're going to use to ensure that we're not introducing something else that's just gonna result in just as many nighttime feeds. β So yeah, I would select from the cot settling approaches in Slumbell, one that suits you. Make sure you do tailor it to your child as well. You can use our modifications that we suggest as a bit of a guide so that you're feeling really comfortable and confident just sticking to that. And then for your toddler.
Dr Laura (38:24)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (38:41)
It's extremely clear for them. You know, there's been a big change, but I'm very well supported. My parents are very consistent with what they do and they understand the expectations. I understand that, yeah, feeds on an offer, but also I still have to sleep in my cot. β Yeah. So yeah, look, it certainly can take longer than a few days. β Everybody's on their own little journey. And I think Faye, you've made an amazing step in the right direction in recognizing that night feeds weren't needed anymore. It would have been really hard work to stop them.
Dr Laura (38:55)
Mm, yeah.
Fallon Cook (39:11)
You just need that little bit more of a push with more independent settling and it should all come together. So good luck. And if you're needing more support, you know, a coaching call could be a great idea if you're feeling a bit lost or a bit stuck. β Definitely when things are really challenging, it can help to have a bit of a sounding board and yeah, chat through things.
Dr Laura (39:22)
Hmm.
Yeah. Okay. We have had a question from Maddie who has a nearly seven and a half month old baby boy with a 12 hour sleep need. He has two hours daytime sleep across two naps and 10 hours overnight. Now he typically wakes between 5.30 and 6.30 in the morning, has his first nap around half past nine and has a second nap around 1.30, which is the longer one. And he then goes to bed somewhere between 7.30 and eight.
So Maddie says that she occasionally, occasionally lets him stay in her bed for the last hour of overnight sleep if he wakes early. But she wants to stop doing this. She says that night waking still happen multiple times, usually around midnight and 5.30, sometimes requiring multiple settles. Maddie only offers a feed overnight after 30 or 45 minutes of trying to soothe him back to sleep using other methods.
His total daily sleep need has been decreasing week by week since dropping to two naps from 13 and a half hours to 12 hours over 24 hours. So Maddy would like to know, is it concerning that his total daily sleep is gradually decreasing? Would it be better to increase daytime sleep to compensate for earlier morning wakings and lost night sleep? Well, there's quite a lot going on in that question, Fallon.
Fallon Cook (40:53)
Yeah,
there is a lot there. So first up, don't increase the daytime sleep to compensate for early morning wakings, or you're just going to get more night wakes and more early morning β wake ups. So definitely don't do that. Keep on track with what you're doing in the daytime. It's not at all concerning that his total daily sleep is decreasing because we expect it across that first year. Sometimes it's a really gradual reduction. Other times it's like just drops off a cliff and that might be
Dr Laura (41:03)
Hmm. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (41:22)
what's happening
Dr Laura (41:22)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (41:23)
for Maddie's little boy. So I wouldn't be too worried, just be thinking about how he is in the daytime. Is he usually having some good stretches of happy awake time where he's engaged with things? You know, he's probably getting enough sleep. So yeah, I'm not worried about that. And Maddie didn't specifically ask about this, but something jumped out at me there. I mean, some factors I'd be thinking about Maddie are there are some babies who when they know they get to have a lovely snuggle in bed with mum,
Dr Laura (41:43)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (41:51)
from some sort of time in the morning, they just keep calling out overnight. Cause they're like, when's it going to happen? Is it time yet? Or maybe it's time now. And they're just kind of checking cause they like it. So it might be worth just considering not doing that. If that's, know, what you're wanting, β it would be fine to stop doing it. she did too. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So absolutely you can stop it.
Dr Laura (41:58)
Yeah.
That is one of things she said. She said she wants to stop that. So yeah, yeah.
Fallon Cook (42:15)
keep monitoring those daily sleep needs as well, because I think keep adapting that schedule. If he's really wakeful overnight, we want to be sure that he's not sort of getting some low sleep pressure because he's overdoing the day's sleep. But also with the night feeds. So what I would avoid doing is waiting, trying to settle for a certain amount of time and then offering a feed. The reason for that is sometimes these babies go, oh, okay, so I've got to wake up and I've got to be a bit of a pork chop for a while, call out a lot.
Dr Laura (42:44)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (42:45)
Now, if I just don't go to sleep for mom or for dad, β eventually I'll get a feed. And so sometimes they just go, β yeah, I know this. know what I need to do to kind of get to that point. β what I think works a lot better is to just have a certain time of night where you're going to offer a feed. So at seven and a half months, you might offer one feed overnight would be fine. But even if you're offering two, whatever it is, decide what time you're going to offer those feeds. So you might say, okay, if it's 1am or later and they wake, I'm just going to feed them. So you just offer the feed.
you put them back down awake and you use your settling approach to resettle them. That just takes out some of the guesswork and it prevents them potentially thinking, I need to escalate really hard to get a feed. So just making those little changes could go a really long way to helping those nights to consolidate. And so I hope that helps, Maddie.
Dr Laura (43:25)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think there's a really good points Fallon. You know, sometimes we do think as parents that we're doing it the other way around, trying to settle first and then offering the feed is the right thing to do. And sometimes we create a rod for our own back. We don't actually want our babies to learn that they need to cry for half an hour, 45 minutes before they get a feed. If our babies are due a feed, we want to give them that feed when it is due. There's nothing else should be happening. So β
having that time in your mind in the night when your baby wakes up, anytime around this time at night, I'm just going to give them a feed straight away. Your baby will then learn that β it's not a thing, they're not going to cry for half an hour and then you're going to give them a feed. If they do a feed, they get it straight away. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (44:21)
Yeah. And they realized
that if mum or dad rocks up and they start to do that same settling approach they always use, it just means it's sleep time. It's just, they just know, okay, it's not feed time then. And then they start to resettle more quickly. β cause they recognize that. Yeah. Awesome. β Karen has an almost two year old toddler and recently returned from an overseas trip with a three hour time difference. Since coming home, Karen's toddler has been waking about
Dr Laura (44:30)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Good.
Fallon Cook (44:49)
one to one and a half hours after bedtime, calling out and crying. Normally he self settles at bedtime and following any overnight wakes, but now it can take an hour or more to fall back asleep, even if he's very tired. He usually sleeps in a cot in his own room, but slept in the parents room during the trip. The family has returned to their usual sort of sleep and nap times, allowing a bit more sleep initially due to the tiredness from the jet lag. But Karen wonders if...
Dr Laura (45:15)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (45:17)
there is potentially some separation anxiety at play since he's recently started calling out when left alone at bedtime which had not happened for quite a long time. So Karen wonders what could be causing these post-trip sleep disturbances, is it likely separation anxiety and what advice would we have for getting his sleep back on track.
Dr Laura (45:37)
Hmm, okay, lots going on here as well. So I'm just scanning Karen's email. I don't think that we know quite how long she's been back for, but we would normally be expecting after about a week for just like us as adults that your sleep gets back on track after around a week β if you are experiencing jet lag. So if you have been home for more than a week and things still aren't resolving,
then I'd probably be thinking it's something other than jet lag. Potentially this has coincided with a change in your child's sleep profile. At two years of age, there's often lots of changes happening as your β sleep pressure starts to build more slowly. Some toddlers actually might even drop their naps entirely at this age and others are just doing a drastic...
of that nap duration as they push more of their sleep into nighttime. So that could be something that's happening for your toddler Karen, that they just simply having a change in their sleep profile. So I'd be thinking about how long the nap is and... β
what time bedtime is and just double checking that it is still within, it's still fitting your child's unique sleep needs. In terms, yeah, did you have anything else that you would add around that Fallon?
Fallon Cook (47:05)
Hmm.
No, I think that's really good advice. I was just thinking about the separation anxiety question and thinking, it's probably not. I think this, this little guy has just gone, Oh, I got to share a room with my parents while I was on holiday and that was really cool. And now he's home and he's like, where are you? Why aren't you here? So it could just be that maybe you sit in the room for a couple of nights and show him that you're there, but you're really boring and you're not doing anything very interesting. And after a few nights start to wander away and he'll probably get back on track, hopefully pretty quickly.
Dr Laura (47:14)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah, I'd be looking to see what is his behavior like during the day when it's not around sleep time. So are you finding that he's getting upset at other points of separation when you leave the room, I drop him at daycare or anything like that. If that behavior is still looking like it did previously, and he's coping well, then it probably isn't separation anxiety. I just something that just stood out to me was β
Fallon Cook (47:47)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (48:08)
when you said that he's recently started calling out when left alone at bedtime, again, it just made me think, is it starting to take him longer to fall asleep at bedtime? So that could be one of the signs that his sleep needs are changing. And you might need to adjust the nap to ensure that he's actually tired when he's ready to go to bed. And if at the moment if he isn't, he might be calling out to you because he's a bit bored and he would quite like you to be in the room with him like you were whilst you're on holiday.
Fallon Cook (48:17)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully it resolves soon for you, Karen. Awesome.
Dr Laura (48:44)
Yeah,
so our next question is from Brooke. So Brooke is preparing to restart on cot settling with her baby and wants to confirm if her current settling routine might create a bad habit. So Brooke says their routine includes cuddling and walking around the house to look for sleep readiness signs like yawning or resting the head. β If their baby resists by bending their head
Up to make eye contact they usually take the baby out of the sleep suit for 15 to 20 minutes of extra play before trying again, which almost always works. Brooke wonders, could this routine teach our baby that resisting sleep leads to more playtime, potentially creating a bad habit as they get older? What would you recommend instead?
Fallon Cook (49:32)
This is such an interesting question. My very short answer would be no, I don't think they're going to go, β if I resist bedtime, I get more playtime. Could depend a little bit on the age, but I'm thinking this is probably a younger baby. I wouldn't be too worried about that. I think you're being really responsive. You're recognizing, you're looking, obviously you've noticed if your baby is wanting to make eye contact with you.
Dr Laura (49:35)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (49:58)
They're not quite ready for sleep. So you're saving yourself the trouble of trying to settle a baby who's not ready. And you're going and doing some extra playtime and, β and you know, Brooke is saying that then when they try it works. So I think you're doing excellent, detective work, Brooke in figuring out where is that sweet spot where you know that your baby is really tired. and I think over time you'll get better at recognizing that maybe you don't need to go and start putting that sleep suit on yet.
Dr Laura (50:03)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (50:27)
And you can just keep waiting for that point where, β you know, he's not, β I don't know if it was a he or not. but if they, know, you, you'll look for that point where you recognize, okay. I think they're ready now you'll put the sleep seat on. They're ready. You know, you put them down. β yeah. So I wouldn't be too worried. But I like the way Brooke's thinking. She's really thinking with that prevention lens. I don't want any problems. So, you know, trying to think through all those, you these different sort of sleep associations that can form, which is really, really cool.
Dr Laura (50:28)
Hmm.
you
Fallon Cook (50:56)
Would you add anything to that one, Laura?
Dr Laura (50:57)
Yeah,
no, I love it. think that Brooke is being a she's being really responsive and a great detective. So yeah, I think just carry on doing what you're doing, Brooke. β And, you know, perhaps as your baby does get a bit older, you could just start doing a bit of cuddling and walking around before they're in their sleep suit. β And just see is that behavior happening? β And then do put in Yeah.
Fallon Cook (51:05)
Hmm
Mm.
Yeah. And then start the routine. Yeah.
Dr Laura (51:26)
Yeah. Good.
Fallon Cook (51:29)
Good, love
it. All right, and lucky last is Christina who asks about the unique sleep needs daily rhythm charts in Sombelle. She says, if their baby is already asleep and reaches the recommended nap length, should they wake the baby or let them continue sleeping?
Dr Laura (51:33)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so β yeah, if you've worked out what your baby's unique sleep needs are, how many naps they're having a day and what their daily nap allowance is, you absolutely β should be waking your baby so that they don't β blow their budget. So if for example, your child is having a two hour nap,
And you know that that nap should only be two hours if they're still asleep at the two hour mark, you would wake your baby. Sometimes it can just get really out of control if you're trying to establish a new daily rhythm and your baby sometimes has two hours, sometimes has three hours, sometimes has three and a half, sometimes has one, you know, we just ends up just being all over the place bedtime and wake up just, it's very hard for those to fall into a predictable pattern. So, yep.
Fallon Cook (52:19)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (52:39)
I would definitely be waking your baby at the end of their allocated nap duration.
Fallon Cook (52:46)
Amazing. Well, on that note, we've wrapped up another set of awesome questions from amazing Sombelle members. So if you're listening in and you need some extra support with baby or toddler sleep or even child sleep, because we have our children's sleep clinic now for school kids and teenagers as well. But do keep in mind that we have clinic appointments available β so you can work with us directly.
Dr Laura (53:04)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (53:11)
β in clinic appointments if you want that really intense support β from us and a bit of hand holding along the way. And of course, if you're in too much of a hurry and you can't wait for an appointment, well, that's exactly why we developed SomVal. For those parents who have hit the wall and need immediate urgent help with baby or toddler sleep, when you join SomVal, you immediately have access to all of our video lessons, all of our resources, and we talk you through the whole process.
Dr Laura (53:11)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (53:36)
of identifying a child's unique sleep needs and working out what sort of settling strategies are the right kind of fit for you and your child. And our team has recently grown. We've got Kat and Lauren on board now seeing families in the clinic, which is wonderful. And we even have some weekend availability. So I know as a parent, you know, having midweek appointments can be such a battle when you've got work and other obligations. So we're really happy to be able to offer some availability on weekends.
Dr Laura (54:00)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (54:04)
going forward, which is really exciting. We also have a whole bunch of webinars coming up that we're doing for various organizations and a lot of those are free to sign up for and join in on. Make sure you're following us on social media because that's where we'll keep you up to date on everything that's coming up in our calendar. Our handle on most platforms is just infant.sleep.australia. We should be pretty easy to find, so come and follow along.
because we do all sorts of what we hope is really helpful and useful content β and we provide that sensible middle ground. If you love what we do, you can always buy us a coffee too. There's a link in our show notes if you would like to do that. So thank you to our amazing Sombelle community and all of our listeners who make this show so fantastic and we hope you have a fantastic week ahead.
Dr Laura (54:34)
Mm-hmm.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
