Fallon Cook (00:37)
We all dread the day it happens. Your toddler suddenly starts trying to climb out of the cot and it feels like game over for sleep. Well, good news. It doesn't have to be. While we don't always get to choose when our toddlers transition to a bed, there are plenty of ways to make the shift smoother and keep their sleep and yours on track. Today, Dr. Laura and I are sharing everything we wish we'd known before moving our little ones from cot to bed.
so you can handle this milestone with confidence.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic Program is created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, how's your weekend been?
Dr Laura (01:41)
Yeah, was good. Thank you. For those listeners who run their own business, they would understand what this feels like. But I took myself off a park run on Saturday morning. I only I'm actually only walking at the moment not running but our minds never switch off when we're running our own business. So I was busy doing little voice memos recording things that we're going to be using in our reels coming up in social media. So I've got these all these breathless recordings.
Fallon Cook (01:52)
How nice.
Yeah? Love it.
Awesome. That's so good. I love the multitasking. We never quite switch off, do we really? Yeah, good. We're really in the thick of our renovations now. So there is dust everywhere, boxes of stuff everywhere. I've now got three kids sharing one bedroom. So there's like
Dr Laura (02:12)
I'll be sharing those with you later, Fallon.
No, we don't. And how about you? How was your weekend?
⁓ my goodness.
Fallon Cook (02:39)
There's bunks, there's cupboards stacked on top of other cupboards. It is, it is like, it, it, I don't know. It's just wild. It's totally wild.
Dr Laura (02:48)
It would not be a safe
situation for a baby or a toddler who is just transitioning to a bed.
Fallon Cook (02:52)
No, no, it wouldn't. said to my
husband, we better really hope that a fire doesn't break out because I don't know how anyone's going to get out of here alive. It is just a bit ridiculous at the moment. ⁓ But that's okay. I am focused on the end goal. Our laundry and our main bathroom are over 50 years old. It's been 50 years since they were renovated and they are very tired and ⁓ just the thought of having
Dr Laura (03:00)
yeah.
Okay.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (03:21)
Just having laundry taps that work, you know, that's pretty exciting for me. We have our laundry set up on our front veranda at the moment. So yeah, you can imagine it's like five people and three dogs sharing two small bedrooms at the moment. So anyway.
Dr Laura (03:34)
⁓ my goodness. You must really feel
like you are in the gold rush times in gold rush country. Yeah. my goodness. Yes. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (03:39)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Thank goodness we've got electric heating though. That's the small way I see it.
Well, it's been a really, really interesting week the last week because what I really started to notice Laura was that our TikTok account really, really warmed up, which was really interesting. So we often post stuff across TikTok as well. And I don't really talk about it much because to be honest, it was a bit of an afterthought. I just kind of went...
Dr Laura (04:00)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (04:08)
yeah, I'll tick that box. Let's send this to TikTok as well. But God, I'm absolutely loving it. Our followers on TikTok are beautiful and we're having these really lovely conversations and people are, you know, commenting with these really cool ideas. Things like with the videos we did around dropping the dummy from last week's episode. So many parents jumped on and went, this is how I did it. And then someone will reply and be like, that's a great idea. I'm going to try that for my toddler.
Dr Laura (04:25)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (04:33)
And I love it when the content we're making is actually causing parents to have conversations and talk through what's worked for them. And it just feels really, really lovely. So if you're on TikTok, because I think that is where most people like to hang out these days. I know I spend way too much time there. But come and follow us. If you search for Sombelle going to, well, we should be the very top result that pops up. So do follow us along there. And on the note of dropping the dummy, one thing that a parent suggested, ⁓ Spaambo is their username.
Dr Laura (04:40)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (05:03)
on TikTok was they had with their toddler, was time to get rid of the dummy. They took their toddler to build a bear and they actually put the dummy inside the bear and picked out a lovely scent to put inside the bear. like, as you can, you can really, ⁓ you can tailor your little bear to your little one. And she was saying that that worked really, really well. And their toddler was quite happy to have this nice toy to cuddle knowing that their dummy was safe inside. And I thought, gosh, that's beautiful. ⁓
Dr Laura (05:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
That is...
Fallon Cook (05:32)
Yeah, it is, isn't
Dr Laura (05:32)
yeah.
Fallon Cook (05:33)
it? And look, Build-A-Bear is not accessible to everyone. I know families like me where we're rural, it's like once in a blue moon we're anywhere near a Build-A-Bear. ⁓ But you know, could make your own. You could, yeah, find a way to kind of use that idea and run with it. ⁓
Dr Laura (05:41)
Yes. Yeah, you could. Yeah. I love that. It's such a nice
community and other parents coming together and, you know, saying this worked for us. That's really lovely. So yeah, do join us on TikTok, everyone, and we can make that community even bigger.
Fallon Cook (05:55)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And someone on TikTok called Millie actually suggested today's podcast episode. They were asking how to move a toddler from their cot to the bed. And I replied and said, that's a great idea for a podcast episode. Stay tuned. And then this morning I was like, yeah, let's do it. It's a, it's a good, good topic. We're all going to cross that bridge at some point. ⁓ doesn't hurt to have a few pointers. So I think let's.
Dr Laura (06:18)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (06:31)
Let's dive in. Let's start with when, when is the right time to move a toddler from a cot to a bed? And I guess for the purposes of this podcast episode, a bed could be the cot just with the sides taken off, could be a regular single bed, or some parents these days are opting for a floor bed. ⁓ so we'll just bundle those all in together to mean bed. But what do you reckon, Laura?
Dr Laura (06:32)
Mmm!
Mm-hmm.
bit. Yeah.
I think wait as long as you possibly can before moving your toddler out of their cot. Wait until they are showing signs that they might climb out. So you don't have to wait until they have actually climbed out. But when they look like they are soon going to be able to manage it, then that would be when you go, okay, for safety reasons, we definitely need to
Fallon Cook (06:58)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (07:21)
make this bed environment safer for them. And look, if you can think about getting as close to three as possible. So if you have a toddler who isn't showing any signs of climbing out, keep them ⁓ in the cot for longer. so if they're three, even three and a half, and they haven't grown out of their cot yet, ⁓ and they haven't shown signs of climbing out, just be happy that they are still contained and safe in the cot.
Fallon Cook (07:51)
Yeah, absolutely. Longer is definitely better. And I think too, you know, if we think about sort of what they can manage at different ages, if they're sort of less than two years of age, they often just don't understand that they're supposed to stay in the bed. Like that's a foreign concept. often when parents do move their toddlers into a bed a bit too early, excuse me, ⁓ suddenly the toddlers coming into their room.
Dr Laura (07:55)
Hmm.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (08:19)
all night long, they've got this little visitor in their bed when co-sleeping was never something that ever previously happened, suddenly that can start to, to pop up, which obviously works for some families, but for I'd say the majority, they're not so keen. ⁓ but also little toddlers, ones under the age of two, and I mean, a fair amount of the ones over the age of two, they don't understand what's dangerous. They, they're kind of ideas of what they should and shouldn't do are not in alignment yet with.
Dr Laura (08:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (08:47)
parents' views of what they should and shouldn't do. So, you know, a young toddler certainly isn't going to be thinking, maybe it's dangerous to be trying to go up and down the stairs, you know, from, you know, landing to landing in the dark. Yeah. ⁓ You know, maybe I shouldn't climb up these cupboards. Whereas an older toddler starting to get a bit of an idea that, you know, these things can be dangerous. So, ⁓ you know, of course, when they're in a bed, they're just more mobile. They're typically able to move around a bit more. And we just have to be really, you know,
Dr Laura (08:56)
in the dark.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (09:17)
I guess thinking about that, you how are going to keep them safe? Safety should be a number one priority.
Dr Laura (09:20)
Yeah.
And if you have had to move your younger toddler out of the cot and into a bed because they've been climbing out or you've already made that decision and made that move before this podcast episode has come out, then think about putting a safety gate on the bedroom door.
in order to keep your little ones safe overnight so that they're not wandering down the hallway into the bathroom and turning the hot tap on or any of those horrible things that some toddlers get up to in the middle of the night that none of us expect to see.
Fallon Cook (09:54)
Yeah, it's so true. Well, let's skip ahead to that. We plan to talk a bit about safety issues to be aware of when you're sort of moving a toddler to a bed. No, that's all right. So I think, you know, think definitely first about the bed. So the space that you're actually moving them into, you know, if it's a cot with the sides off a floor bed or a regular single bed, definitely be following the manufacturer's instructions. I think that was a pretty obvious, obvious one there.
Dr Laura (10:00)
yes, sorry, fel,
Yes.
Fallon Cook (10:20)
Check the Red Nose website as well because the Red Nose website provides guidance around safe sleep for toddlers as well and as they move into beds. It's not just about cots. So definitely go and have a look through there. So often when I look at their website, I'm like, I hadn't even thought of that. You know, there's things you might not be across. But certainly think about the room. I almost say to, you know, what I often do say to parents, think about the room as being the new cot.
Dr Laura (10:39)
Mm.
Fallon Cook (10:47)
It's the new boundary of where your child is. So the whole room has to be safe. So, ⁓ the, thing that always freaks me out the most. And I say it to every parent is you've got to be so cautious with the cords for the blinds in the room. If you've got blinds and I'm especially thinking about, I'm looking at some in my office right now, the ones that hang down in a loop and it's like silver shiny beads to a toddler. They're like, yay, a beautiful necklace. They put it around.
Dr Laura (10:49)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (11:16)
All they have to do is spin around once and they're stuck. They don't know how to get out. And if you're not nearby, you can't hear. If your child can't draw air, you can't hear it. As horrible as it is to even imagine such a thing. ⁓ It is a really, really risky thing. You go around your house right now and just check, you know, are all the cords secure? You can buy these really cheap little plastic things from Bunnings or wherever that secures them to the wall so that they can't be sort of pulled up and played with.
Dr Laura (11:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (11:44)
⁓ so important, so, important. ⁓ and I think just the usual things to covering power outlets, ⁓ making sure all the cupboards in the room are secured to the wall doesn't cost much to get a little kit so that you can screw cupboards into the wall. ⁓ and just thinking about little items that compose a choking risk, other things in the room, you know, smaller than a 50 cent piece that your child, you know, we never think they're going to put stuff in their mouth, but often they just do.
Dr Laura (11:44)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
particularly when bored in the middle
of the night, if they've woken up. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (12:14)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, when you're not there to directly supervise them, just clear the room of anything like that. And it doesn't hurt to have a boring, very plain room at this age, because then when it's sleep time, they're not thinking, oh, I want to go and pull down that tub of Duplo or whatever. You know, it does does just become a place for sleep and rest.
Dr Laura (12:33)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (12:38)
which is really important and just looking out for those heavy things as well, like lamps and things that tend to be up high where they can pull a cord and pull it down onto them. So yeah, I think definitely really thinking through that safety lens, if they're going to be in a bed and not in their cot and a hundred percent, like you said, Laura, the safety gate and the bedroom door can just make a huge difference. And just for peace of mind, as a parent, you're not waking up in the night and thinking, are they wanted out to the kitchen and are they inspecting the knife block or?
Dr Laura (12:45)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (13:07)
you know, climbing
Dr Laura (13:07)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (13:08)
the pantry shelves to get a treat. You just know that they're contained and they're safe. ⁓ yeah, you're going to rest a bit more easily, hopefully.
Dr Laura (13:11)
Yes.
Mmm.
Yes, yeah. And Fallon, when would you advise parents that it's not the right time to move their toddler from a cot to a bed?
Fallon Cook (13:29)
Yeah, it's look, I would say if there's any sleep or settling difficulties, and that probably sounds a bit odd. But what I mean by that is so often parents have babies that enter toddlerhood and sleep becomes challenging. Often, you know, they're standing up or, ⁓ you know, starting to crawl around a lot, or they're just really protesting very hard about bedtime. And a lot of parents will suddenly go, ⁓ maybe they don't like the cot.
Dr Laura (13:58)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (13:58)
maybe they'll be happier in a bed. They won't be and moving them to a bed at that point is really unlikely to help sleep. It's actually probably going to make sleep even more challenging than it has been. So don't think that if sleep and settling is really hard, maybe moving them to a big bed is going to be the magic thing that they need unless, you know, they're obviously outgrown the cot, they're three and they're pushing against the sides and it actually is bothering them.
Dr Laura (14:10)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (14:26)
Yeah, so that's definitely one of the ⁓ things I would be thinking that if sleep and settling is hard, it's not the time to move them. Another big one, a lot of parents will say, we've got a baby due in a couple of months, so I need to kick the toddler out of the cot because I'm going to need it for the baby. No, don't do it. ⁓ raises a lot of problems. You don't want to have a toddler who's suddenly waking up and wandering around the house in the middle of the night, right when you've got a newborn, but also
Dr Laura (14:34)
Mm-hmm.
No. ⁓
Fallon Cook (14:55)
We don't want to create a situation where your toddler is now feeling very jealous of the baby because the baby has just been gifted their favorite place to sleep. So yeah, it's just not, not the right time to do it. If you need to buy another cot and you can afford to, I would highly recommend that you do that. ⁓ you can always resell it later on, but if it means everyone's going to sleep well, I would say that's pretty good money spent.
Dr Laura (15:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
and we know that sleep in toddlers can go a little bit wobbly when a new sibling comes on the scene anyway. So we really want to be trying to keep as many things constant and consistent as possible around your toddler when they're having this great big upheaval in their life. So having that nice ⁓ place that is very familiar to them, where they can sleep, they feel secure.
can really help just whilst you're managing their sleep going a little bit wobbly. know, their sleep's going wobbly because there's been these like momentous changes in their life and they're now in a bed and potentially in a different room and you know, all of these big changes have happened. Your little toddler is being told that they're not baby anymore because there is an actual baby in the house and they're not going to like that. And also they're nice, comfortable, safe.
Fallon Cook (16:07)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (16:19)
place that they have been in for the last few years has been taken away from them. So then things can really get much worse. So I really agree, Fallon, if you possibly can, ⁓ don't move your baby out, your toddler rather, out of the ⁓ cot just because the new baby's arriving. If you're going to do it, wait until, well, either do it way before the new baby arrives.
Fallon Cook (16:28)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (16:46)
but taking on board what we've just talked about when you wouldn't do it ⁓ and safety issues or think about moving them into a bed quite a long way down the line after the new babies arrive.
Fallon Cook (16:49)
you
Hmm, I think that's really good advice and same goes for any big life changes if you're moving house or ⁓ You know parents gonna suddenly start working away for long stretches of time or any kind of big shift That's just not the time to make that change ⁓ So thinking about I'm worried that there's some parents listening in going. ⁓ no, we've done it too early you might have even just tried to put your toddler in a bed recently and
Dr Laura (17:14)
Hmm.
Yes!
Fallon Cook (17:28)
it's really not going well. Maybe that's why you've tuned in to this particular episode. So what do we say to those parents who they've gone to move their toddler? It's a bit of a disaster. You know, it hasn't gone to plan. What do they do?
Dr Laura (17:33)
Yes.
where you can always go back to using the cot. So this would be a situation where, know, Fallon and I were often saying, don't go back, keep making progress, keep going forward. You you've made that commitment. But this would be the exception to the rule. So it is okay to say, do you know what, now isn't the right time, hasn't gone as smoothly as we had hoped. Go back to using the cot again and try moving them to a bed further down the line.
Fallon Cook (17:45)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (18:13)
If going back to a cot isn't an option, then think through what their bedroom is like from their perspective. make the bedroom really safe and comfortable for your toddler. Putting the baby gate on the door, if that ⁓ is helpful, so you're making it safe for them. And just going in. ⁓
in the evening and if there's a nightlight just getting down at your toddler's level and looking around the room and just checking that there's nothing there that's actually scary for the toddler they can feel a little bit more exposed when they're not in a cot anymore so some things that maybe didn't bother them in the past that chair in the corner or that picture on the wall that didn't feel threatening to them when they were in the cot might now just take on a different meaning to them when they're in their bed so
Fallon Cook (19:10)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (19:11)
Just have a little look around and make sure that it is really comfortable for them. And if you do need to spend a bit of time in the room with them as they're going off to sleep whilst they are in there, starting to get used to falling asleep in their bed rather than a cot, that's also okay.
Fallon Cook (19:32)
Hmm, I think that's really good advice and I love the advice to get down on your toddler's level, know, turn the lights off like it would be at night time and really think about what they can see. I don't know, probably a lot of our listeners might have seen a popular video recently online where a mum felt terrible. She realized that her toddler kept pointing and seemed upset by something and she kind of went into the room and realized that with the light off at night, a few different objects that were in the room.
Dr Laura (19:42)
Mm.
Fallon Cook (19:58)
ended up looking like this sort of looming figure in the corner. And it looks like, I was like, my God, that would, that would frighten me. You sometimes you go to sleep yourself and you open your eyes, you look around your room and there's like a coat hanging and you're like, no, I've got to get rid of that. That just looks like there's someone over there. And yeah, it was one of those sorts of situations. This poor toddler was like, enjoying it. yeah. So definitely do that.
Dr Laura (20:11)
Yes. ⁓
this I don't feel like your partner
saying get over it Fallon. That's ridiculous. There's nothing there. And then actually turns out that something it does look rather ominous. ⁓ well, well done for that mum for noticing and then hopefully making changes. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (20:24)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yep, did the detective work. Yeah, yep.
And even my kids now, they don't like to sleep if the wardrobe doors open a crack or, you know, and that's fine. I totally get it. Like I wouldn't either. So I think we just, yeah, have to really think about what things look like from, from our toddler's perspectives for sure.
Dr Laura (20:47)
Mmm.
And Falon, what do you think, you know, I'm just thinking about how we kind of tie this all up with a bow, just thinking about how we can advise parents to prepare their toddlers for the move to a bed. What top tips would you give them?
Fallon Cook (21:12)
Mm.
Yeah, I think you could definitely do some preparation work with toddlers, especially if they're getting a little bit older. You know, you've managed to hold them off until they're two or three years of age. I think definitely talking about it, describing what it's going to be like. There's so, this goes for any change in toddlerhood. I'm a big fan of this with potty training as well. Read books about it. Really explain it. Read about it. Let them.
Dr Laura (21:34)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (21:38)
understand it and you know you might even talk about you know their cousin who went what happened when they got their big bed or yeah it just really helps to kind of give them the idea of what that will be like. And I'm a big fan too of actually taking them to the shops and letting them pick out their own bedding, letting them pick out a new soft toy that's you know specifically for their big bed ⁓ so that they feel involved in that decision making and
Dr Laura (21:48)
Mmm.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (22:02)
they're going to get really excited about the bedding they've picked out or the toy they've picked out and make it that the bedding and the toy is just for when they're in that new bed. So they're really quite looking forward to it. And also don't forget, I think often we assume our toddlers understand, but actually have a chat to them about how it's going to work. So say things like, this is where you'll sleep all night long. You know, if you need me, I'm not far away, but you're going to sleep here tonight and I'm going to see you in the morning. So they're kind of understanding that
Dr Laura (22:23)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (22:31)
you know, that that is the intention. And a lot of parents will laugh like, yeah, good luck. See you in the morning. Sure. That's going to go to plan. ⁓ look, I know some toddlers are still going to call out quite a bit, ⁓ because it's different. It's a change and maybe their norm is to just call out a bit at nighttime when they're in the cot and they're going to still do it in their toddler bed. ⁓ but just explaining, you know, this is where we're going to sleep for the whole night can really help.
Dr Laura (22:43)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (22:59)
And then I think as well, just keeping things as similar as you can. So this is not the time to stop using white noise or to take away block out blinds or to make really big changes in that sleep environment. ⁓ Opt for a sleep suit. If you've been using a sleep suit, keep using it because your toddler is going to take them a long time to figure out how to replace their blankets in the night. So ideally we want to dress them really, really warm so that when they kick the blankets off and aren't really sure how to put them back, they're not too bothered. They're not going to wake up sort of freezing cold.
Dr Laura (23:20)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (23:29)
⁓ in the night. ⁓ So that's a bit of a whistle-stop tour, isn't it? Of making that big move. ⁓ But hopefully there's some good advice in there for our listeners. And certainly if you're a Sombelle member and you've got the toddler program, you'll know that there are chapters about this. We have a whole chapter dedicated to how to settle your toddler who is in a bed or has the side off their cot.
Dr Laura (23:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (23:54)
And we have an astonishing number of approaches in there. think is there five or seven or something? I don't know. And they could all be modified to fit your child's temperament, your parenting style and all of that. So there's a lot of support in there. So if you're a member and this is something you're about to come up upon and you're thinking how are we gonna do it, it doesn't hurt to read through those sections early so that you're starting to sort of formulate a bit of a plan.
Dr Laura (24:00)
Yeah, that's a lot.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (24:18)
⁓ over how you'll do it. And of course, if you hit hurdles, send in your questions to the podcast because we would love to answer them. ⁓ If you've got any great tips, come along to our TikTok and leave us a comment so that we can share them with other parents as well. Yeah, it's nice when parents help parents.
Dr Laura (24:26)
Yeah.
Yes!
Yeah, absolutely. It is I'm just having flashbacks,
Fallon to when I made the move for my eldest. And we couldn't for various reasons, she was unable to come to the shop to get to choose the bedding. But I had asked her, what do you want? If mommy has time to go to the shop? What would you like? And she had very specific request of a she wanted bedding that had teddies on. And I just thinking, my goodness, I don't actually know if there will be any but
There was, there was a beautiful blanket with a teddy bear on and I was just delighted to find it. So then when she came home from daycare and I was like, come and have a look and I can remember her face. It's like she was so pleased that she had this blanket with a picture of a teddy bear on and it was kind of raised and fluffy. So it felt really nice. Yeah. And yeah, she loved it. ⁓
Fallon Cook (25:04)
You
⁓ yeah. that's hitting like the parenting jackpot. Isn't it? Over one
time, my daughter was about five and she was learning to ride her bike. And she's like, for Christmas, this is what I want. I was like, okay, I've got like my pen and paper ready. And then she says, I want a shiny rainbow helmet for riding her bike, but it needs to have a purple mohawk over the top. And I was like, ⁓
Dr Laura (25:33)
You ⁓
This very specific.
Fallon Cook (25:53)
Yeah, I'm thinking, what am I going to do? Like she's got her heart set on this. I went to Kmart and they had a shiny rainbow with a purple mohawk. I could not believe it. I don't know if she'd seen an ad or something. I was like, yes, the, the, ⁓ the picky preschooler, yeah, gods had just shined upon me that day. And when she got it, she was just like, she could not believe it. It was, it was amazing.
Dr Laura (26:05)
yes. All the stars are aligned.
And those
moments really stay with you, don't they? You're just like, yes, I really, really just nailed it. So yeah, good luck parents listening to this who are doing something ⁓ similar. And yes, maybe do what Fallon suggests and actually take your child to the shop to choose the bedding so that you don't have that heart in your mouth moment like I did. Like what if I can't find the bedding that is what she's requested?
Fallon Cook (26:22)
Yeah. Nailed it. Yeah.
You
Yeah.
⁓ good luck everyone. It's a big change, but yeah, it's all part of them getting bigger and it's, I don't know. I still loved really seeing my kids manage those big changes and it's exciting. It's exciting for everyone. Yeah. All right. Well, let's dive into some questions from parents. So maybe we'll start with Andrea. She has a nine month old who typically needs about 12 and a half hours of sleep per 24 hours.
Dr Laura (26:58)
Mmm it is exciting yeah. Alright.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (27:15)
and generally sleeps really well, self settling with minimal support. Currently, their baby is still taking three naps per day, nine months. And Andrea says it can total over four hours of daytime sleep if not capped. She says while this daytime sleep leads to, while this much daytime sleep leads to poor night's sleep, transitioning to two naps has been very difficult. Stretching wake windows causes her baby to become very upset.
Dr Laura (27:30)
Hmm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (27:44)
or she just tries to fall asleep early. They're also managing really long car trips due to their rural location. That rings a bell to me. Andrea says the baby naps well in the car, which often leads to excess daytime sleep disrupting the usual sleep balance. So Andrea's got a few questions. So first up, should we push through with transitioning to two naps or is it okay to stay on three naps for now? Maybe I'll read all the questions out.
Dr Laura (28:01)
Hmm.
Hmm, okay.
Fallon Cook (28:12)
She also says,
it normal to ⁓ wake a baby up from every nap? And how can we manage sleep during long car trips to avoid excessive daytime sleep?
Dr Laura (28:22)
Okay, Andrea, this is a real tricky situation where you are in a rural location and therefore I'm assuming in order to kind of go about your life you need to be in the car.
get to wherever you need to be going to get to your local K-Mart might be a long way to go. Yeah, with a platformer hook. Yeah. So, yeah, it's really tricky, because one of the things that we would often suggest to families who write in with this issue where they're trying to transition their baby to fewer naps, we often advise that
Fallon Cook (28:42)
for a rainbow bike helmet with a mohawk.
Dr Laura (29:06)
parents avoid the car outside of nap times, wherever possible, because for some children, motion is like catnip. They just cannot resist falling asleep, particularly when you're transitioning to fewer naps. ⁓ yeah, in which case we just look, well, if you have to go somewhere ⁓ in the car, then you will time that trip around the nap.
when the nap is going to happen so that you avoid the falling asleep between naps. So that's often what we would suggest for families who aren't in a rural location and aren't going to have to be in the car for long stretches of time just as your everyday life. Now, so for Andrea, in your situation, because you are in a rural location and you do have to be in the car quite a lot, what we have to think about is...
what is going to work for your family. And it may be that three naps a day is actually just going to continue to work for your nine month old. As long as you probably then look at moving bedtime a little bit later. So if your baby continues to need to have those three naps a day, just because you're out and about so much in the car, then we have to think about
dividing up that 12 and a half, 13 hours worth of sleep need across the day and the night. And if they're going to be having a lot of daytime sleep because they're napping in the car for a long time, then we have to then subtract that amount from that 12 and a half, 13 hours sleep, which will necessarily mean that bedtime and wake up, there's going to be a shorter duration between bedtime and wake up. So I guess just to sum up,
Ordinarily at nine months of age, a baby is on two naps a day. And when you're doing that transition, avoid car rides. In Andrea's situation, if you can't avoid car rides, then I would be keeping your baby on three naps, but looking at ⁓ shortening the overnight, total overnight sleep so that ⁓ the long daytime sleeps or the high amount of daytime sleep isn't leading to then lots of wakes overnight. ⁓
because then that in turn will make it harder for your baby to drop down to two naps when they are ready and when it will suit you. Do you have anything to add, Fallon, to that?
Fallon Cook (31:35)
Mmm.
⁓ Only that, you know, often parents in that situation, when they, when they sort of get to a point where they're like, okay, it's got to be done, we've got to move to two naps now, it's just not working anymore. Or if, for example, for Andrea, maybe having a shorter night just isn't possible for any number of reasons. One thing to consider would be if you can have, if you can somehow arrange maybe a week where you don't have to take your baby anywhere in the car. So it could mean getting some help in or
Dr Laura (31:56)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (32:08)
you know, ordering stuff online or however you can engineer it. What you could do during that week is do a really big push for the two naps and capping that total day's so that the circadian rhythm completely adjusts. Because if you can get her to a point where she's having a longer night and less day's sleep, sometimes when they're ready for it, that will just stick. And then you'll find you'll go in the car and she won't be anywhere near as sleepy.
Dr Laura (32:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (32:30)
⁓
So it could just be that you need to do like a concerted effort for a week of just avoiding the car to really get the circadian rhythm into a pattern that you're liking and then praying that it will stick. ⁓ The other question that Andrea had was around that is it normal to have to wake a baby from every nap? And it's kind of sometimes yes, sometimes no. So there will be babies where we have to wake them from naps temporarily to get this nice daily rhythm happening. And once they're in that daily rhythm,
Dr Laura (32:50)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (32:58)
they're set and they'll just start to wake naturally. And so you're not having to wake them because they're, they're meeting their sleep needs and they're in a great pattern. But there are certainly plenty of babies out there who have kind of these funny circadian rhythms, I think, where, if we like that, they'll always seem to want to take more day sleep at the cost of their night. So it's like, it's a bit slippery. If we take our foot off the brake on the day's sleep,
Dr Laura (33:01)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Hmm.
Fallon Cook (33:27)
they'll have hours more and then be up all night long. And it just happens really easily for some babies. And I don't know why, we just don't quite understand it. If your baby is one of those babies, then yeah, your normal might be that you have to always wake them from their naps to keep their nights on track. So it really, yeah, it really depends on the individual, I think. ⁓ And I think it's over time, especially across that first year as parents, we start to get a bit of a sense of...
Dr Laura (33:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (33:52)
how rigid we need to be with waking them up on time from naps. There'll be plenty of babies who can just do whatever, they're really resilient, but there are certainly some that just aren't and they need that really careful managing to stay on track. ⁓ But yeah, if you're struggling Andrea and you want extra support, know where we are. So we're always here to help you if you are having a tricky time figuring out that daily rhythm.
Dr Laura (33:59)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, ⁓ our next question is from Katherine, who has a five month old baby girl, and she's been using the quick fade approach, which has resulted in a significant improvement in overnight sleep. well done, Katherine. Yay. She describes that, yeah, her daughter is now sleeping in five or six hour stretches overnight instead of waking every two hours. So that's really wonderful. I bet she is.
Fallon Cook (34:28)
Yay! Yeah, good job!
⁓ I Catherine's feeling like a human again.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (34:44)
So
Catherine's ⁓ concern now is about daytime naps, so quite similar to Andrea. So ⁓ her baby like Andrea's averages around about 12 hours of sleep every 24 hours. And Catherine writes that ideally that would be two hours of daytime sleep and then 10 hours overnight. However, Catherine's little girl tends to catnap frequently, which ends up
meaning that she has sometimes between four and six naps ⁓ over three to four hours total. And then more daytime sleep then results in early rising or split nights for Catherine's baby. So Catherine's trying to keep her awake between naps, but she falls asleep easily in motion. So it's that catnip of motion or during brief down times. So if she's in the carrier or pram or
her or even sometimes just on the play mat. And Catherine says that any efforts to wake her from these naps don't always work, especially when they're on the go. So Catherine has ⁓ three questions and perhaps what I'll do is just read them out in one go as well, Fallon, like you did. So Catherine says, how can I reduce the number of naps and help her stay awake longer between them?
She also asks, should I wake her from catnaps when possible or allow her to complete a full 30 minute cycle? So I guess Catherine's baby's sleep cycles must be 30 minutes. ⁓ And will she naturally begin to awake, wake up longer or stay awake longer between naps as she gets older?
Fallon Cook (36:29)
These are such good questions. There's so many things kind of rattling around my head on this one. So certainly, yes, as she gets older, she will naturally begin to stay awake longer between her naps for sure. But I think what we want to think about multiple factors. first up, know, Catherine mentioned she's done the quick fade approach and it's resulted in this great improvement with overnight sleep, which is wonderful. So her
Dr Laura (36:30)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (36:58)
five month old, he's doing some independent settling, which is great. Often once they master independent settling, that's when cat naps start to turn into longer naps. And it often happens at about the five month mark. So hopefully Katherine's daughter is really close to that point too. Simply they'll have a sleep cycle, rouse a little bit, go, yeah, I'm still in my car. It's all the same. I know how to fall asleep here and they'll go back to sleep and you start to get those longer naps. And then of course, if they have a longer nap,
Dr Laura (37:10)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (37:24)
they're awake and happy for longer, so they're stretched out more, then the next nap's also likely to be a bit longer. So what I would be thinking about is, Catherine, have you got to a point where you have phased out all the padding and the humming? And is your daughter completely independently falling asleep? Because sometimes, ⁓ especially for day naps where sleep pressure tends to be a bit lower than it would be overnight, ⁓ if they are padded or shooshed or you're just around doing something when they fall asleep,
Dr Laura (37:26)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (37:52)
because their sleep is a bit lighter in the daytime, they come up into that sort of light sleep, they rouse, and if anything's not the same as it was before, they spring awake. So if you haven't quite finished phasing out the padding and the humming, definitely do that, work on that, because that could make a big difference with extending out ⁓ those naps. I'd also be tempted to think about what you want at night. So if you want a 10-hour window overnight,
Dr Laura (38:00)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (38:21)
⁓ I guess what I was thinking was, know, if the day doesn't go well, still try to aim for your same bedtime and wake up time. I would still, you know, be working really hard to avoid excessive day naps. So at five months, having four cat naps, not a big deal, five or six. It's going to have a bit of an impact. And it could be similar ⁓ to Andrea, I forgot her name for a moment.
Dr Laura (38:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (38:49)
where
⁓ we sort of advise to, ⁓ you know, even plan a week where you're just, you've got maybe, you you plan some time around home where you're not on the move so much, where you do things that your baby really loves. So if your baby is so delighted when grandma comes to visit or a friend comes over because they love to see a new face, well, guess what? You're going to be having some house guests. You know, get...
Dr Laura (39:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (39:15)
get, think of those things that make, make your baby really alert and awake and that will help to start to stretch out those awake windows a little bit. Cause it does sound like a bit of a cycle of little cat nap, little bit of time awake, little cat nap where they're just constantly taking the edge off that, that sleep drive. ⁓ And what else is there? Should, should she wake the baby from cat naps when possible or allow the full 30 minute cycle?
Dr Laura (39:22)
Mmm.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (39:41)
I think if you catch it in the first few minutes, she's just started to nod off, I would try and wake her up if you're trying to stretch things out a bit more. But if you know, she's 10, 15 minutes into that sleep cycle, I would probably just let it go unless it's the last nap of the day, in which case I'd be like, no, up you get. We've got bedtime to plan for here. ⁓ Yeah, would you add anything to that one?
Dr Laura (39:57)
Yes.
Yes. Yeah, and I wonder, yeah,
only Fallon, I think that, you know, six cat naps a day at five months of age, you know, what you could look at doing, Catherine is saying, do know what, I'm gonna for the next week, I'm gonna look at it just being the five naps a day, and try and stop that very last nap that she's having close to bedtime. And like you were saying, Fallon, you know,
you could wake her mid cycle from that one. then just whilst she's still having it, and then let's drop that. So then she's just having the five cat naps and then do the same thing again. Let's get her down to four cat naps. And then what you might start to see is that one of those naps starts to be longer. And then she's quickly going to move to three naps. So yeah.
Fallon Cook (40:32)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah, I like that plan. You can kind
of gradually do the change and then with more time away, yeah, much more likely that she's going to take a longer nap. Cause at the moment with lots of little cat naps, there's probably just not the sleep drive to warrant a long nap. So yeah, you'll get through this Catherine. It can feel really tough when you're sort of stuck in this cycle, but ⁓ just keep, keep pushing gently and yeah, it will come together hopefully really soon. And if you do need extra support.
Dr Laura (41:06)
Mmm, yeah.
Fallon Cook (41:19)
Like I was saying earlier for Andrea, it's the sort of thing we can talk through in a coaching call and have a really close look at what's happening if we need to. All right, so shall I read out Laura's question? Okay, so Laura has a six month old baby girl who self settles independently. Her total sleep need is just under 13 hours. She currently naps three times a day for about two hours of sleep.
Dr Laura (41:26)
Mm-hmm. All right.
Hmm. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (41:47)
and sleeps for 10 hours and 45 minutes overnight. Amazing. Laura suspects she may be ready to drop her third nap due to the following signs. So she's taking ⁓ longer to settle for the third nap and at bedtime. She's staying quite alert at the end of her current wake windows. So not super tired. And for two nights, she's cried out briefly between sleep cycles. ⁓
Dr Laura (42:02)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (42:14)
to four cycles in a row until midnight. okay, so after each sleep cycle in the lead up to midnight. Although she doesn't open her eyes and she doesn't need any support, she just resettles within one or two minutes. But this has been sort of a new behavior that's emerged recently. So Laura rather is keen to know, does this crying out between sleep cycles indicate reduced sleep pressure and the need to drop the third nap? Or might it reflect a shift in her total sleep needs?
Dr Laura (42:20)
Mmm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (42:42)
Is dropping to two naps too early at six months of age? And is it appropriate to use a 15 minute power nap as a transitional strategy while slowly extending her time awake? Just to bridge the move to two naps. I already know your answer to that last one, Laura. You love the bridging nap.
Dr Laura (42:58)
Yeah, I we have a difference of opinion. Yeah, I'm
a big fan of the bridging. But works for some babies doesn't work for others. So the reason why it works for some babies is they're not such they're not they're not as sensitive as some other babies are being woken mid cycle. So sometimes just having a 15 minute little rest can just really help.
Fallon Cook (43:10)
Yep.
Dr Laura (43:28)
push through until bedtime. But if you have a baby that absolutely hates being woken mid cycle, or it just, even if they've only had 15 minutes, it just completely throws off bedtime, then don't do it. So really, in answer to that question, Laura, it's going to be how your baby responds to a power nap. Try it out and see how it goes.
Fallon Cook (43:42)
Mmm.
Yeah, try it out. ⁓
Dr Laura (43:53)
⁓ Next question was, it too early to drop to two naps when your baby's six months old? Absolutely not. It's fine. Somewhere between six and seven months is quite normal for babies to drop down to ⁓ two naps. Some babies hang on to that third nap until they're a bit older, closer to eight months. But it does sound like your baby is showing quite a few of the signs that she is ready to drop down to two naps.
Fallon Cook (44:19)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (44:21)
And I do think you're onto something there Laura would noticing that you're hearing your baby move between her sleep cycles overnight, which is new. So it doesn't matter if that for some families, they always hear that and their babies are just really noisy sleepers. And it's just nothing that would indicate anything that we would suggest needing a change for. But because this is new for your baby,
Fallon Cook (44:33)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (44:46)
Because she's showing those other signs that Sethelene is taking a bit longer for that last nap and at bedtime. And now she's a little bit more ⁓ audible ⁓ in the earlier part of the night. Probably would say she is at the point where she's, the sleep pressure is possibly not getting quite high enough at the start of the night.
Fallon Cook (45:10)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (45:10)
If it is working
for you though, at the moment, if it's just longer settling times, but let's say it's 10 minutes rather than five, and she's not needing you to go in where overnight where, you know, that hasn't been a change. I would stick with it three nuts for the time being, but if it's becoming a problem, and she's needing more support getting unhappy about going into her cot.
Fallon Cook (45:17)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (45:36)
⁓ is then calling out to you, you're having to go in four times before midnight, then I'd be like, yeah, let's move her to the two naps. So it really depends how much of an impact it's having on her ability to fall asleep and stay asleep. And yeah, would you add anything, Falan, to that?
Fallon Cook (45:42)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Well, I think it raises an interesting question. I was talking about this with a parent just last week in clinic is, you know, when they show signs that they're, you know, starting to be ready, like Laura's reported a lovely collection of signs. It sounds like her daughter is getting really close to needing to go to two naps. Often parents want to know, it that we just dropped the nap, but they still need the same amount of total sleep. So they might just have two slightly longer naps when they drop the third nap.
Or is it a case that there's a drop in sleep needs and we actually just get rid of that nap and we're not adding that sleep anywhere else. ⁓ and I think that's really a good thing to consider. And what I would lean towards is when you, when you drop a nap, I would say as a first port of call for the first, maybe three days of dropping that nap, add that third nap, you know, whether it's 15 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever, add that to the total day sleep. So keep, or rather keep it in that total day sleep. So if you had.
Dr Laura (46:32)
Yes, good point.
Fallon Cook (46:56)
two hours total day sleep across three naps, what's gonna be two hours total day sleep across two naps. Just so that then they're getting that bit of sleep, they might still need to drop that extra bit of sleep, but when they're trying to cope with longer time awake, you're giving them the chance of that little bit more sleep just to help ease that transition. And after three days, you might find, yeah, we didn't need to add the third nap to that total day sleep, we actually can just drop that now. But it can help just to ease that transition.
Dr Laura (47:13)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (47:25)
And of course, keep an eye on the total sleep average that you're seeing in your child's sleep diary, because if that is consistently dropping lower, well, that'd be a pretty good clue that you're going to drop the third nap and not need to, ⁓ you know, add that somewhere else to the night or to the total day sleep. I hope that makes sense. ⁓
Dr Laura (47:43)
Yeah,
it does. I will often talk about how sometimes when you've got the, let's say you've got the three naps, and that last night might just be one sleep cycle, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, whatever your child's sleep cycle is. And then when their child is ready to drop that last nap of the day, sometimes, and you don't be able to see this if you're looking at the video.
But sometimes I've got my fingers kind of around that third nap and sometimes I just go poof, know, it just so I open my fingers and that 30 to 45 minutes just goes off into the ether. Off it's gone, it's gone. Never to be seen again. But other times this either goes into an earlier nap or it moves to bedtime. And we just never know. We just don't know because sleep is always changing.
Fallon Cook (48:09)
You
Mmm.
Dr Laura (48:35)
And so I really love your suggestion, Falunov. Initially, just try and hold onto it. Let's try and push. We take that third nap and we just shuffle it into the first or second nap. And then we see if we can keep that total amount of day sleep. I think that's a really good place to start because your babies are going to be then having to stay awake longer. We want them to be able to be functioning and managing well. But just bear in mind that if it doesn't go into the nap and it
Fallon Cook (48:36)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (49:03)
their bedtime doesn't come earlier, then it going poof off into the ether is actually a normal experience. It's time to go sleep needs to of course they have to continue to decline. They have to that's just what happens when we're not having children starting school still needing 15 hours worth of sleep. You know, even children and kinder they're not many of those aren't having 15 hours of sleep. It's just it makes sense. It's just part of development for sleep needs to drop.
Fallon Cook (49:08)
Yep, it was time to go. Yes.
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (49:32)
So it's going to go at some point.
Fallon Cook (49:32)
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, it will. It absolutely will. And I think while we're on this topic, I've had quite a few parents who have thought that when they drop a third nap, that the first nap and the second nap will stay at the same times of day. Who think that, okay, well we normally have one nap at 9am and another nap at 12pm. How am going to get them through to their 7pm bedtime? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, we get to shuffle that around now.
Dr Laura (49:48)
Mmm.
Yes. Yes!
Fallon Cook (50:00)
So it might
Dr Laura (50:00)
Yep.
Fallon Cook (50:01)
be a 10 30 a.m. nap and a two 30 p.m. nap or something. So of course you can, you always want to sort of roughly equally distribute the naps across the day with a slightly longer period of time awake in the lead up to bedtime. That's kind of what you're aiming for there. ⁓ I love those questions though. It was really nice to have the time to really unpack ⁓ those particular questions because I think ⁓ they're relevant to so many parents navigating sleep in that first year. ⁓ So yeah, thank you for sending those in guys.
Dr Laura (50:13)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (50:30)
⁓ And I also want to thank two wonderful people who bought us coffees in the last week. And I wanted to read out some lovely things that they said. First is someone with the username, Despina, I hope I'm saying that correctly, who bought us two coffees. And she said, thank you for continuing to make these helpful podcasts. I really feel like a fish out of water, really felt like a fish out of water for such a long time. I was told by so many people that cot settling was the same as cry it out.
I'm so glad I found you both to validate that they are indeed wrong. I am also so grateful to have gained a better understanding around sleep needs. After accepting that my baby is just a low sleep needs baby, we are all just so much happier. That's so lovely. Yeah.
Dr Laura (51:13)
it's so lovely. Yeah,
well done. mean, it can just be the it's just a missing piece of the puzzle for some families and gosh, I mean, we talk about it a lot, but so many families are suffering because their child just simply doesn't have a high sleep need. And when you're educated about why that's just the case for some babies, gosh, it's life changing.
Fallon Cook (51:23)
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
⁓ yeah.
makes
a difference. It really is life changing. And I love what Despina said about, ⁓ you know, realizing that cot settling is not the same as cry it out. That's exactly why we did that episode a couple of weeks back to explain what cry it out actually is and that cot settling is not cry it out because they're like so many people. And it was a big thing on our Tik Tok account as well. We're like, Whoa, I've been led down the garden path on that one.
Dr Laura (51:50)
Mm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (52:09)
⁓ and I think that, I don't know, I just, I love what we're doing, Laura. I really do. And it's, look, it's hard work in this space. And there are some days that feel punishing because you know, yeah, there's the trolls online and we're not immune to that. can absolutely flatten us some days. ⁓ but it is so rewarding hearing that parents are finding it really validating and really useful to have some of these myths busted wide open.
Dr Laura (52:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, the haters.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (52:37)
And I hope that it's helping parents to feel like they have agency. They can look at their child. They can make an educated decision around how they choose to approach sleep and settling and know that you are the expert in your child. you know, we can give you some advice. ⁓ But at the end of the day, it's up to you and you do know better than we do. You know, know your child better than we ever will. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (52:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. And you know how you're functioning as a family. you know, I
follow some ⁓ mums on TikTok who are in the trenches at the moment. I don't think they've found us yet, but they're in the trenches and they videoing themselves on the, you know, come with me on a typical night with my six month old or, you know, those type of ⁓ reels, excuse me. And these parents are at
Fallon Cook (53:13)
Hehehehehe
Dr Laura (53:28)
absolutely exhausted doing everything they can to love and support their baby's sleep up for multiple times through the night over and over and over again it's relentless and those people saying you shouldn't change anything about sleep David come on just watch some of those videos
Fallon Cook (53:45)
Hmm. You'll miss this when they're older. No, you won't.
You won't miss it. You'll be thinking, thank Christ we got through that. How good is it to sleep all night? You're not going to miss that. You'll miss having snuggles with your baby, but you have all day to snuggle with your baby. You will like, yeah. my goodness. yeah. the guilt that comes with parenting, hey. And it really is just wild. ⁓
Dr Laura (54:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (54:13)
I also wanted to read out really lovely review we got from Breanne who bought us five coffees, which is so generous and so lovely. And she said, thank you for generously making the podcast available to listeners. It is such an incredible resource. As a pediatric neuropsychologist, I will be recommending this podcast to parents who are in the trenches with their children's sleep. And as a new parent myself, I've already benefited immensely. So grateful for all you do. How awesome is that?
Dr Laura (54:41)
yeah that's wonderful.
Fallon Cook (54:41)
That's lovely praise from
a pediatric neuropsychologist. And we do have so many health professionals and people who, pediatricians, you know, who work with us. And we, yes, we just love that we have the trust of people who really understand children's health.
Dr Laura (54:45)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's right. And the importance of ⁓ families functioning well, parental mental health, child, infant mental health, and where sleep sits in that and ⁓ what we can and can't change, what we can and what we can expect. ⁓ So yes, we do have ⁓ a lovely community of health professionals who
Fallon Cook (55:08)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (55:23)
both work with us, with their patients, but also use our resources when they are parents themselves. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (55:29)
And refer to us as well. I love this
lovely network we've got now of wonderful parents who are now referring their own clients over to us. It's beautiful. So look, if you would like to buy us a coffee, we will pop the link in our show notes. We so appreciate the families who do. Of course, if you need support with sleep and settling, you can always join Sombelle You can book in coaching calls if you find that need an additional level of support whilst you're working through our online program resources.
Dr Laura (55:38)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (55:59)
And if you're on TikTok, go and search for Sombelle right now, give us a follow, come and join in some of the conversations that we're having there. ⁓ Because it is, it feels like a really lovely community, touch wood, that we keep it like that. ⁓ But yeah, do come and follow us along. And thank you to all the families who just allow us to do this amazing, wonderful work that we love. And we hope you all have a terrific week.
Dr Laura (56:11)
Yeah.
Thanks everyone. Bye bye!
