Fallon Cook (00:37)
It's a big concern for so many new parents, the dreaded four month sleep regression. The science behind sleep regressions is actually non-existent. So mostly we tend to disregard them. But the reality is sleep often does become a big challenge at four months of age for so many parents and their babies. Today, we're going to unpick why that is and also talk strategy.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, let's dive in. Let's start with what is a sleep regression and are they backed by any science?
Dr Laura (01:38)
Mm
hmm. Okay, so this is one of those ⁓ that kind of terminology that's seeped into the ⁓ kind of public discourse around sleep. And what the idea is, is that there are particular times across the first year or two of a child's life, when their sleep worsens, so regression going going backwards. So yeah, there's a lot of emphasis on these particular
time points where sleep is said to go backwards. So locked to these ages and developmental milestones, which then leads a lot of parents to live in dread of these particular points in time where their child is going to lose skills that they previously had or learnings that they previously had. But I think you and I can quite categorically ⁓ agree on the fact that
Fallon Cook (02:22)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (02:37)
Fallon, there isn't any scientific evidence to show that sleep worsens at these particular points in time, is there? Do you want to talk a little bit about what the science shows us?
Fallon Cook (02:40)
No. Yeah.
Yeah
Yeah, for sure. So if you go into any of the big sort of databases that are sort of like the repositories of all the scientific evidence that we have, and you search for sleep regressions, you'll come up with nothing. Absolutely nothing. So a sleep regression isn't kind of a scientifically defined phenomenon. ⁓ And but the idea has been around for a really long time. I think it was about the 1940s, some researchers started to kind of talk about this idea. We just don't see
the evidence ⁓ for them emerging. And it would be really obvious if there are certain ages where all babies have a worsening in sleep. That's something we'd find really easy to spot in the data. Like you'd look at a graph of the sleep of babies and you'd see this sort of blip ⁓ when these apparent regressions happen. And one of my most favorite baby sleep researchers, Jodie Mindell she's an absolute legend and we got to meet her once, didn't we Laura? were bit starstruck.
Dr Laura (03:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, we did.
Fallon Cook (03:46)
But she's amazing. So she's done some of the most phenomenal research looking at so many different aspects of infant sleep. And she actually carried out an informal analysis and I'd love for her to actually publish this paper, but I'm sure she's got plenty on her plate. But she did have a look through like her reams and reams of data gathered from ⁓ babies and thought, well, okay, if there are regressions, I should be able to spot this pretty easily. And of course she couldn't. There was just no evidence that these regressions exist.
Dr Laura (03:59)
You
Fallon Cook (04:14)
and I think what's really important to know is that when we talk about data from babies, we're not talking about bringing babies into a lab or putting them in a sleep, sleep study type setting. ⁓ this is just parents tracking their baby's sleep at home, which is, I think the more reliable data to look at the majority of our sleep science data, ⁓ actually comes from sleep in the usual context of, being, you know, at home. So.
Dr Laura (04:24)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (04:42)
When parents are tracking their baby's sleep over time, if there are trends in there or certain ages where things tend to happen, it would make it pretty easy to spot. But, ⁓ yeah, we just don't see it.
Dr Laura (04:51)
Hmm.
No, we don't. But if we were to ask parents to note down when their babies took their first step, for example, and we were to get a thousand families across the country to log that, we would see there's virtually nothing before, let's say, nine months. And then there may be, we start to see one or two really early walkers emerging. And then we would see that across that
Fallon Cook (05:04)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (05:25)
you know, more around the 12 months, we'd start to see a lot of parents ticking that yes, this is when my baby took their first step. And, you know, then there'd be some that take their first step a little bit later. And that is just really easy to see in the data. And so, and we trust that we trust what parents are telling us about when their baby took their first step. And if we look at if we are asking parents about their child's sleep and asking them to log it across,
that first year or two of life. Again, if there were these times that parents are observing sleep getting poorer, then parents, there would be this window each time, yes, this thing happens always at this age, this thing happens always at this age, we would see it. there are some, ⁓ when sleep gets worse, parents are the ones feeling it often. And we would be able to see it in the same way we would see.
when they report their baby took their first step or something else developmental that happens.
Fallon Cook (06:27)
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's really, you know, the first thing that I want parents to know is don't dread any of these apparent regressions. There seems to be a regression for every age and stage at this point. The, you know, largely I would say parents don't need to be fearing these times. It can create a lot of anxiety for absolutely no reason, because what we do see in the data is that
Dr Laura (06:42)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (06:54)
babies have ups and downs in their sleep, but that it is scattered. Yeah. It's not time locked. It just happens at various different times. And it could be for a whole bunch of different reasons. ⁓ so, you know, just, ⁓ I think take each day as it comes and don't be panicking about something in the future that might not even happen. ⁓ but having said that, having said that the one, if I was going to give any weight to any of these particular regressions,
Dr Laura (06:56)
Hmm. Hmm.
Mm. Mm.
Fallon Cook (07:22)
⁓ it might be the one they talk about at four months of age, because we definitely do see a lot of parents reporting that sleep becomes trickier, harder to manage. Maybe their babies are harder to settle, night waking increases at around that four month mark. ⁓ Laura, do you want to talk us through why sleep can become trickier at that particular age?
Dr Laura (07:32)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah. Well, once a baby is four months and older, their, what we call their sleep architecture changes, they're moving beyond the very little baby stage of sleep to having more adult like architecture. So their circadian rhythm system matures, they're producing their own melatonin. They also begin to be a little bit more
awake and aware of what's going on around them than when they were really small. They can start to have a more idea of cause and effect. There's some beautiful interactions that are happening around four months with parents and their little babies. And you know, all those cute videos of babies giggling and laughing. And
realising that if mum does something and they laugh, or if they do something mum laughs and then they do it again and mum laughs again. It's beautiful, we all love this, it's so sweet to watch.
Fallon Cook (08:46)
My favourite
type of content to consume on TikTok is babies laughing.
Dr Laura (08:50)
Yes. Yeah, likewise.
And so there are all these developmental changes. not in just in the sleep space, the not the actual sleep space, but you know, what's happening with their sleep, and what their sleep looks like, if we were to look at their brainwaves, but also just cognitively where they're at. And so it just is like a perfect storm, if you like, of changes.
Fallon Cook (09:13)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (09:18)
that can result in a baby beginning to be more aware of what's happening at sleep time, beginning to develop some preferences for things that they like to happen at sleep time, whereas previously didn't really matter a great deal. And it's from this point, therefore, that habits and preferences develop and we can start to see an effect on their sleep.
Fallon Cook (09:27)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (09:49)
What else would you add Fallon that happens around this time?
Fallon Cook (09:52)
Well, I think this is a real key age where, um, you know, they start to do all humans start to do this kind of systems check. So, um, you know, we, we go through a sleep cycle. We start to come up into the lightest stages of sleep and it's just in human nature that we do, you know, often we don't even remember it, but our brains do a little bit of a check. Am I too hot or too cold? Am I hungry? Am I uncomfortable? Um, has, is there danger around me? Has anything big changed?
So even little babies four months old will start to do this check and if anything kind of sets off the system, you know, the brains like, hang on, something has changed or something's not quite right. They will fully wake up and then need that, whatever it is, they'll need it to be addressed. So this is why a lot of parents will say, oh, they slept so well those first few months, you know, I could settle them any old way I wanted to. And they would have some, you know, some pretty good stretches of sleep overnight that we were pretty happy with.
Dr Laura (10:34)
Mm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (10:50)
and then come four months or sometimes it's closer to five months, ⁓ suddenly they were just springing awake like after almost every sleep cycle. And we hear that all the time. And often that is because, you know, for so many babies, they might be, let's just take the example of being held and rocked to sleep, which is pretty common for little babies, pretty normal thing to do. If a baby has only experienced being held ⁓ or rocked to sleep,
Dr Laura (10:57)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (11:17)
Um, before four months of age, you could hold them and rock them to sleep, pop them down in their cot or other sleep space. Um, when they're asleep and they'll still just sleep. Okay. Cause they're not really doing that systems check. Once they hit the point of starting to do that systems check, you know, they're settled in your arms, you put them down in the cot. And then after a sleep cycle, they do the systems check and go, hang on a minute. My sleep environment has changed. I don't like it. They spring awake outraged. Where did you go?
get over here now, I need to be held back to sleep again. So often there are, you he's quite a bit of crying and then parents rush over and hold them back to sleep. But then they find they're doing that, might be five times per night, it might be 12 times per night. It could be very, very exhausting. And humans do this because we are protecting ourselves. You know, if we think about the evolution of humans, once upon a time we did live, you know, in more...
Dr Laura (11:45)
yet.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Precarious.
Fallon Cook (12:12)
wild kind of ways. Yeah, we had
predators and things that we had to be really cautious of that we don't so much these days. And I often use the sort of tiger in the cave analogy, humans who would wake up when something's changed in their sleep environment, like a tiger prowling around the cave, were the ones who survived. So now we are these rather anxious sleepers where we constantly want to check that things are still the same, much like you know, as an adult, if you fall asleep with a pillow under your head, you wake up at 2am and the pillow is not there.
Dr Laura (12:34)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (12:40)
You don't just go back to sleep. tend to kind of get a bit of a start. You wake up, you replace your pillow and then you go back to sleep. So that's what's really happening for babies at around about that four month mark. They're starting to get very sensitive to waking up somewhere unexpected. they'll tend to want to.
they'll tend to want to have one way of falling asleep from this age. So often they do just go, well, I'm usually held to sleep. Therefore I only want to be held to sleep. ⁓ And that's important to know, I think, because what we tend to hear reported from families is that if they mostly settle their baby in their cot and sometimes hold them to sleep, often that baby's preference just becomes falling asleep in their cot. So it isn't really that problem with an increase in night waking because they fall asleep in their cot, they wake up there.
Dr Laura (13:07)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (13:27)
no alarms are kind of going off from that. ⁓
Dr Laura (13:29)
Hmm. And I think that sometimes,
also, some babies are more sensitive than others. And so I think a little of the pushback that we see ⁓ online in particular, around the idea of sleep associations and sleep preferences comes from people who have had babies where they're not particularly sensitive. So they will go to sleep in their mum's or dad's arms.
Fallon Cook (13:38)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (13:58)
or being bounced on a football or fed to sleep or whatever it is. A lot of support to fall asleep and they pop down in their bassinet or cot or even co-sleeping if that's a choice that the family's making and then their baby does great big long stretches and then those parents will say well there's no such thing my child no such thing as sleep association what you're talking about because those babies they are still doing that systems check
Fallon Cook (14:02)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, what are you talking about?
Dr Laura (14:24)
but they're just a little bit more, I don't know, resilient. Perhaps I can't think of what the word would be. Maybe they're just good enough. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (14:28)
Yeah. They're like, well, good enough. Yeah. Close enough to my usual. Yeah. Yeah. They're not
so bothered by it. Whereas some are really sensitive. I think it's the parents of the babies that are really chill, that just like, aren't so fussed about how they fell asleep. They might be the parents that are writing these like inspirational quotes online, like cherish every moment.
Dr Laura (14:51)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (14:52)
One day
they'll grow up and they won't need you anymore. It's like, yeah, but you've, you've had one or two night wakes. Like no, that's no biggie. What about the ones who have 12 night wakes? Like they'd rather cherish those precious moments in the daytime, 12 times per night, a little bit much for those parents. And that's fair enough.
Dr Laura (14:57)
Yeah.
Yes!
Yes. Absolutely. Yeah.
So if you have a baby that ⁓ goes to sleep in one way, and then you pop them down in their cot, and they only wake up maybe once or twice overnight, and it's not bothering you, then that's fine. But just be aware that there are many, many, many families that are not having that experience and their babies are falling asleep in one place and then are waking up annoyed.
Fallon Cook (15:25)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (15:34)
upset, ⁓ startled to find that they are somewhere else and then they need that ⁓ same thing to happen to ensure that they can go back to sleep and that can happen from around four months, which is why people talk about that four month regression.
Fallon Cook (15:51)
Hmm. Well, let's dive into what parents can do about this. Cause I think every parent wants some practical strategies. And I think you raise a really good point Laura in that, ⁓ you know, it's a really personal choice. So a lot of families will just go, well, look, sleep's been going fine. It may or may not worsen at four months. Don't really care. Just got to see how things pan out and make a call at that point. And that's completely valid and fine.
Dr Laura (15:56)
Hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (16:17)
If you get to that four month mark and you're like, no, okay, we're getting lots of night waking and I'm giving them a lot of support to fall asleep and maybe that's part of the reason why they're waking a lot. ⁓ Well, then you can make the choice to change that. You can decide then to work on cot settling if that's what you want to do. And I think Noah's well that often babies at about four months of age adapt really usually touch wood pretty well to cot settling, like with some consistency.
Dr Laura (16:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (16:43)
⁓ They tend to just take the lead of their parents like, ⁓ you know, my parents seems pretty chill about me being in the cot. I'm getting lots of support. Actually, this place is okay. So often after a couple of settles that require a little bit of hands-on work, then they make that adjustment and they're off and away. ⁓ But I think as well, a lot of parents will aim for prevention, which is also perfectly valid ⁓ for some parents who
Dr Laura (16:52)
Yeah.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (17:10)
there could be any number of reasons. They might just know they don't cope well with interrupted sleep. They're just wanting to be on the front foot with sleep from the get go. Or they could have multiples or older kids or physical health concerns, any number of reasons why you might be particularly wanting to protect sleep and keep things as settled as possible. ⁓ And that's a really valid choice as well. So for those parents, they might even
Dr Laura (17:27)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (17:35)
And certainly this is case for a lot of multiples. They might settle them in the cot from day one. So you're still having lots of cuddles and interaction with your babies. ⁓ But that's when they're awake. And when it's time for sleep, you're consistently settling them in the cot because that's where you always want them to sleep. And that's perfectly valid as well. ⁓ Would you add anything to that Laura about what parents can do? ⁓
Dr Laura (17:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, well, I think that parents who are members
of Sombel can look at the various cot settling approaches and pick one that feels right for them. ⁓ And just know that all of the approaches you're staying with your babies, they vary in the amount of patting and shushing or humming or whatever, you know, whatever support it is that you're giving to them ⁓ as you introduce that cot settling.
And when they're small, if you are aiming for prevention, so maybe they're three months old and just thinking about just giving them the experience of being in their cot or bassinet, sometimes when they are awake. So it's always about the experience. so picking a few times a day where you might be working on cot settling. And in that time, your baby is learning, actually, this is fine.
I'm right, mum's still here with me, dad's still here with me. And it's then just building up the experience for them and for you so that when they hit that four month developmental stage, where perhaps they are beginning to develop some preferences for settling that are just not sustainable for you and your family, then you can just continue to build on the strategies that you have already kind of trial run.
Fallon Cook (19:27)
Yeah, I really, I love that thinking of you just building upon something that they've had some practice with. And I know a lot of people will say when it comes to cot settling, it just comes down to practice and all practice is good practice. It's just opportunities for your baby to see that the cots are really lovely place to be and it is a good place for sleep. ⁓ and you know, just on that note, I would say too, that there will be some parents listening who just think abs like no way can I put my baby in the cot.
Dr Laura (19:33)
Hmm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (19:55)
Like there's just no way. ⁓ and that's okay. I think we all have moments as new parents where the thought of putting your baby down can feel horrible. You just think, no, I just want to keep holding them. And you know, if that's where you're at today, that's fine as well. You've got to choose your timing. You shouldn't feel pressure from anyone to go, my gosh, I've got to start working on cot settling all of a sudden. Like it really is your choice. And if it feels too hard, probably is just wait until you're feeling ready.
Um, cause we do see a lot of people online saying, oh, there's all this pressure on parents. It's all this pressure. Um, and I agree with that. And I think the best thing that you and I can do, Laura is give parents the information and then you absolutely should run with what feels right for you and your family. Um, a hundred percent every time I would always say that.
Dr Laura (20:29)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. ⁓
I would just, of course, as ever, or the only thing I would add is make sure that you are ⁓ not in a dangerous situation ⁓ with your baby and that you are following ⁓ safe sleep guidance from red nose, ⁓ avoiding holding your baby to sleep on a recliner and falling asleep yourself or sleeping on a sofa. So all of those things. ⁓
Fallon Cook (20:53)
you
Yes.
Dr Laura (21:10)
are dangerous. ⁓ so, yeah, just make sure that you ⁓ are ensuring your child's safety ⁓ all of the time.
Fallon Cook (21:17)
Hmm.
Yeah, once they're asleep, put them in a safe space. And if they spring awake, as soon as you try and put them down, often that is the prompt where parents go, okay, now I know we're going to have to work on cot settling because we can't do these transfers anymore. Yeah. And I'm curious to know, yeah, I was just going to say, I'm curious to know, did you take a bit of a prevention approach with your kids or did you kind of wait and see what happened?
Dr Laura (21:25)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, how did...
I, for my first, just went into it with no idea about sleep because it wasn't the area I was working on at the time. So, no, certainly did not take a prevention approach because I didn't have a, I didn't realize where things ⁓ could lead. For my second, because he had reflux and some other health issues, we
Fallon Cook (21:54)
Hehehehehe
Yeah.
Dr Laura (22:16)
attended a mother baby unit for quite a few weeks. And that was really helpful when he was quite young, but it did make the whole sleep and settling side of things really tricky because we were managing some medical concerns as well. But it was really great to have the support of nurses at the mother baby unit where I was.
Fallon Cook (22:22)
Mm.
Dr Laura (22:44)
And we actually went in on a couple of occasions in that first year. And so there was a little bit of prevention and then was a little bit of unpicking when he was a bit older. How about you, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (22:49)
Mmm.
Yeah.
I think I went into it because I had been working in sleep before I had my first, so I did go into it with a bit of a prevention lens, I guess. for mine, it's not that I did every single settle from day one in the cot, but I was always thinking like when I can, when it feels doable, when I think, they're just, you know, that perfect amount of sleepiness, I'll pop them down.
Dr Laura (23:11)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (23:24)
⁓ that's what I tended to do was just to make sure that it wasn't an unfamiliar place for them. And that's all I really did. And they did pretty well with that. We didn't kind of end up having to take some sort of targeted action, you know, because they couldn't fall asleep in their cots. They just sort of knew how to do it. ⁓ but like, don't kill me. Like they had, they had the temperament for it as well. And that's a really big, I know that be parents go, for goodness sake, my kids would never. And I know, I know that there are kids who would never.
Dr Laura (23:30)
Mm. Mm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (23:54)
know, who you try and practice cot settling and it's just hard even when they're really little. Yeah, I'm, I'm, yes, yeah, I'm sure.
Dr Laura (23:59)
Yeah, I would have hated hearing your stories when I was in the trenches. Yeah, we didn't know each
other at that time. I wish I had known you at that time, but we're going back quite a few years now.
Fallon Cook (24:13)
Yeah, yeah, I wish we'd known each other when our kids were really little. Would have been nice. But yeah, look, I just think, I think just having that in mind that you can practice a bit of cot settling when you feel ready can be a helpful thing. So what about the other regressions? Would we say that parents, you know, are there any other time points where we're like, oh, you've got to look out for this one?
Dr Laura (24:16)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
No, absolutely not. Really do not be thinking that there are particular ages that you should be worried about. It might not happen. And you spend the whole of the seventh month dreading the eighth month and then the eight month regression doesn't happen. Yeah, it can just lead to anxiety. And look, we know that anxiety is the enemy of sleep. And we're thinking about parents sleep as well. So if you are just
Fallon Cook (24:48)
Hmm.
Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (25:01)
thinking when is the, what's that expression? When's the shoe gonna drop? Like you're just waiting for something to happen. It can really just start to colour your parenting experience and your own sleep. And so ⁓ just try as much as you can to forget about these age locked points that your child's sleep is gonna go a bit wobbly. Know that it will go wobbly at some point, but just like everything does. And if you follow our Sombell principles,
Fallon Cook (25:13)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (25:30)
around understanding your child's unique sleep needs, understanding when sleep changes across that first year or the first few years of life. It's really going to put you on the front foot to use an expression you used earlier, Fallon. ⁓ Yeah.
Fallon Cook (25:45)
Yeah,
so true. And we get so many, some of our members saying, ⁓ I really love the program because when we hit a hurdle, I just went straight back to the program went, yeah, that's the problem. Yeah. Read through the relevant, you know, bit of info, ⁓ to do with that problem and then got things back on track. And that's what I love about the program is that, you know, it's about educating parents. So you've got all these skills, you can refer back to it. ⁓ and I think too, once you know how to.
of modulate sleep pressure and be thinking about unique sleep needs with a few, you know, different settling strategies that you sleeve ⁓ your set. yeah, awesome. All right. Well, let's move on to parent questions now, because we've got quite a few to get through. we're going to, we're going to have our skates on. We're going to try and power through, we Laura? Yeah, go for it.
Dr Laura (26:14)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yes, we are. We are. Shall I kick off?
Okay, so we've got Elizabeth who has an eight month old baby girl who keeps waking up early for the day. And she's praying that she doesn't have an early bird on her hands. So she says that since Daylight Savings ended in April, their baby's been waking for the day between 4.30 and 5.30 in the morning. Her sleep need is about 13 hours.
Fallon Cook (26:45)
Mmm, yep.
Dr Laura (27:00)
She goes to bed at 6.30 in the evening. And although Elizabeth has attempted to push bedtime later, they haven't been able to successfully make that change because they find that their little girl doesn't cope very well. She usually has two or three naps totaling between two and a half and three hours. But recently, more often, it's just been the two naps a day. But Elizabeth is worried that that results in a long wake time before bedtime.
So she wonders if we have any tips to stop those early risings.
Fallon Cook (27:36)
Yeah, I think a big shift in the circadian rhythm is kind of needed here. So with two and a half to three hours day sleep, your baby's probably looking for about 10 hours overnight. So if they fall asleep at 6.30 PM, then yeah, it makes sense. They might be waking up around 4.30 or, or 5am. So the maths works. Um, but Elizabeth, don't feel like you can't change this. It will be hard and I don't want you to be worried about overtiredness.
Dr Laura (27:39)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (28:04)
think
of it like jet lag. If you just flown in from another time zone, you would push quite hard to get your baby back into the usual kind of day night rhythm. ⁓ that'd be very cranky about it as well. You'd see a lot of crankiness, but you'd be like, well, too bad. can't be awake all night and up all day. Cause we're not in England anymore or wherever you've flown in from. ⁓ it won't hurt to push it along. you could either.
Dr Laura (28:16)
Mm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (28:26)
Start to push the naps later in the day and bedtime later and wake up time later. You could gradually push it along 15 minutes every few days or so. But I would be tempted to help that along. I would stick to two naps because she's eight months old. So she definitely can manage two naps. And if it's going to be three hours of day sleep, then have a think around your bedtime and wake up time. So is 7.30 PM to 5.30 AM going to suit you.
Dr Laura (28:42)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (28:54)
Or does it need to be 8.30 PM to 6.30 AM? Um, yeah. So I have a bit of a think about that and don't be afraid to just push on with those changes because yeah, I don't like the sound of those early wake ups either. I wouldn't put up with that. I'd find that very taxing. Yeah. Would you add anything to that Laura?
Dr Laura (28:57)
Mm-hmm.
No, it sounds horrible. Yeah.
Look, just our usual thing that we have different views on, the power nap option, the power nap option. So ⁓ that you if you're really finding that she can't get through until bedtime, then potentially a 15 minute little power nap later on in the day to get through. But look, to be honest, the fact that she is starting to just do that to out to nap.
Fallon Cook (29:17)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (29:38)
transition herself. You probably, I hate months. Yeah. So it's all right. She'll be okay if she's, she's having two nice long naps a day. Yeah, I think what you've said, Fallon, perfect. So she'll, she'll come good.
Fallon Cook (29:39)
Mm. She's eight months, not six months. Yeah, so it should be okay.
Hmm. And often like,
yeah, I a lot of parents who think their baby shouldn't be cranky in the evening before bed, but they really supposed to be like, it's really normal. So a lot of parents go, oh, they're really cranky, really early. So we put them to bed. Um, but actually they're supposed to be a bit cranky and you know, it's, really normal. And you'll certainly notice that in the totally, but yeah, a bit of crankiness in the evening. Yeah. Very normal.
Dr Laura (30:03)
Yeah.
yeah, that's right. Yeah,
I like the idea of just moving bedtime 15 minutes later every, every night for a week or so. If you wanted to go gradually or alternatively just rip the bandaid off, get some friends around, get granny and granddaughter over to be on entertainment duty in the evening when she is really grumpy. And then a nice long shower or bath to to support her until bedtime.
Fallon Cook (30:24)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah,
love that. Good luck, Elizabeth. Katie wrote in, she feels like her six month old daughter is having extra sleep compared to one month ago. So over the past month, her baby has transitioned from four naps to three and sleeps for an extra hour overnight. So she's now doing 7pm to 7am. Wow. Occasionally she wakes around 5.30 or 6am and babbles happily before falling back asleep on her own. Katie typically wakes her up at 7am, which is very easy to do.
Katie is wondering if it's okay to let her baby return to sleep after those early wake ups, especially since waking her earlier has led to an extra cat nap during the day. She adds that she is a very happy cat napper, always waking alert and happy.
Dr Laura (31:28)
Katie, I think it sounds like it's working for you and your family at the moment. she's given, she's a catnapper. She's hanging onto more naps for longer than if she was, for example, like Elizabeth's daughter who has two longer naps. So sometimes we do find that catnappers hold onto their naps for longer and she's six months old and has only just transitioned down to three naps. I suspect what you'll start to see Katie is maybe in another
Fallon Cook (31:32)
Mm.
Dr Laura (31:57)
few weeks, she's not going to be able to go back to sleep when she wakes up early in the morning. So at the moment she can she babbles, she's happy, there's nothing you don't need to do anything and she does go back to sleep. Perfect. But she will start to probably be unable to go back to sleep, in which case I would say at that point, you'd move her down to two naps and then there's more likelihood that she's going to be able to stay asleep until a reasonable hour in the morning again. Would you add anything?
Fallon Cook (32:25)
Mm, I think that's really
good advice. Yeah, just to say that, ⁓ while, most babies have a gradual decline in sleep needs, it's most babies, but not every baby. So some of them will add some extra sleep, ⁓ to their schedule, like what Katie's baby has, which is why we're always looking at, know, is our schedule working? Are they happy? Could they do more? yeah. So I think Katie's handled that really, really well.
Dr Laura (32:36)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's right. We never want to be rigid around the sleep that we're offering our little ones. When you're working on changing something about where or how they sleep, that's when we do suggest, you know, just looking at the sleep in the last week, then trying to stick with that for a period of time whilst you work on the new cot settling. But after that, it's absolutely appropriate to add in a little bit of extra sleep.
Fallon Cook (32:56)
Ahem.
Dr Laura (33:18)
and see if they can achieve more. And sometimes you will have a baby like Katie's baby who does in fact start to sleep more. And that's great. We're always just making sure that we are giving them all of the opportunity to get the sleep that they need. And it sounds like that's what Katie has done. So well done. ⁓ Okay, so we have a question from Erica, who has a 21 month old, who also has had a recent change in her sleep needs.
Fallon Cook (33:33)
Mmm perfect.
Dr Laura (33:44)
So previously Erica's toddler self settled and slept through the night. But recently, however, she's been waking up in the night for over an hour and is needing constant reassurance, checking if Erica is still present overnight and she can no longer fall asleep independently at bedtime. She's getting out of bed, she's crying at the door and she really is upset at being left alone at bedtime.
So Erica has tried reducing the nap to one sleep cycle during the day and adjusting bedtime for a couple of days, but there's been no improvement. And Erica wonders if we think it's a sleep pressure issue, separation anxiety or something else. And what should she do?
Fallon Cook (34:32)
it's a really interesting one. So definitely if you've reduced the day nap, give it more than a couple of days. So try and give it sort of a week to see how much that helps. Sometimes sleep pressure is a bit higher and then they're not so worried about where you are when they fall asleep. But I would say there's probably a sleep association issue for this toddler where you're present when they fall asleep, they wake up overnight, check if you're there, you're not there. They call out, they get upset. You've got to come back and then
Dr Laura (34:34)
Mm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (35:00)
That's kind of on repeat overnight after every sleep cycle there wanting to see the is still there. ⁓ One of the, what would I be thinking about? So look, it could be separation anxiety ⁓ without sort of knowing how that child reacts at other times of the day. It's hard to say for sure. What I'd be thinking Erica is maybe just looking at something like the guardian gate approach in Sunbell where you can be present. Your child can still see you. ⁓
Dr Laura (35:04)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (35:27)
but it just provides a little bit of structure to how you settle them. So it's going to mean that you're not being too hands-on. You're still giving some reassurance. It's just a good balance of some reassurance, but you're not sort of staying right beside them the whole time they're falling asleep. Something like that could be a really good idea. And then you can kind of gradually phase out your presence from that point. I don't think we've quite got time to go into all the different strategies we use in those situations, but I think for Erica, maybe starting with the Guardian Gate.
Dr Laura (35:44)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (35:56)
because it sounds like they're not in a cot anymore. That could be a good point to start from. And if you're hitting big hurdles, because sometimes it's really tricky with separation anxiety, booking for a coaching call. We could always have a look at the diary, have a really good talk through the behaviors you're seeing just to work out what the best plan is going forward. What do you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (35:58)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think it's really hard when you have a toddler who previously fell asleep independently and is no longer able to do that. ⁓ And then is kind of hypervigilant overnight. And yeah, it can be, ⁓ it can be hard. And so I think what you have suggested is a really good idea, Fallon, just to kind of
Fallon Cook (36:30)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (36:44)
help revise the independent settling ⁓ by using an approach that Erica can stay present and so isn't triggering any anxious response in the toddler. ⁓ Yeah, but I think Erica do book in for a coaching call ⁓ if you find that that approach isn't working and yeah, we can then unpick what's going on there for you.
Fallon Cook (36:49)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah good idea. ⁓ Megan has a 16 month old who has always had low sleep needs. She says he currently has about 10 and a half hours of sleep per 24 hours so that's completely fine it is on the lower end but yep some of them just have a low sleep need at that age. She says he self settles at bedtime which is around 9 30 p.m and wake up is at about 7 a.m.
Dr Laura (37:27)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (37:40)
However, he keeps waking for an hour early in the morning before self settling back to sleep. His nap is capped at an hour. Megan wants to know what else she can do.
Dr Laura (37:51)
Okay, that's a tricky one. So at 16 months old, ⁓ your baby is likely to continue to need that nap. And I was talking to a family this week in clinic about that real tight rope that parents are walking when they do have children who are low sleep needs, because we have to ensure that they have enough daytime sleep to function well.
but we don't want them to have so much that it impacts their nighttime sleep. Now at 16 months, your baby is just having that one hour nap. Probably wouldn't be looking at reducing it much further at this point. Perhaps if he was a little bit older, I might be saying we could try for one sleep cycle. But I don't know. I think that that...
Fallon Cook (38:41)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (38:45)
At the moment, that balance looks about right, an hour for the daytime sleep and then about the nine and a half hours overnight. ⁓ I wonder,
Fallon Cook (38:48)
Hmm.
Yeah, I'd be really tempted just to wait, wouldn't you? Like just wait and see.
Like if he's so settling after being awake for an hour, sometimes they just have a blip in the radar and after a couple of weeks they're back on track again because they've realized, well, even if I wake and call up at, call out at, you know, 5am or something like that, absolutely nothing interesting happens. Like, but if, if he gets a feed and you watch Tally for a bit and then you put him back down, well, he's going to be like, ripper.
Dr Laura (39:02)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (39:21)
I'm waking up this early every day. So if you can stay the course, wait, you know, let him put himself back off to sleep. ⁓ there is a chance that he will start to fill that gap, I guess. ⁓ and maybe it's okay. So just waiting a couple of weeks to see if that happens before you start to change that daily rhythm because 10 and a half hours, it's not a lot. and not many really have a sleep need much lower than that. So we wouldn't want to cut too much sleep too soon.
Dr Laura (39:21)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm. No.
No.
No, the only other thing that occurs to me is that potentially, Megan, his circadian rhythm is wanting to start, kickstart a bit earlier. So 9.30 bedtime to 7 a.m. wake up, it may be that he's starting to have a preference to start the day early. So one thing you could look at doing is perhaps moving wake up to 6.45 and then
Fallon Cook (40:11)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (40:18)
moving bedtime that night to 9.15 and then kind of like what we'd suggested for one of the earlier members questions where you just see if you can actually just start to shuffle everything back so that in the end he's going to bed a little bit earlier and then the wake up is more in line with what his body clock wants to do. You perhaps half past six or even 6 a.m. might be what he is wanting to do.
So give it a go. think watch this space. Don't do anything for a couple of weeks and see if it resolves on its own. And if it doesn't, then think, well, perhaps actually he's just a little bit of a lark. ⁓ And then just see if you can move bedtime a little bit earlier so that he's just able to do a nice long stretch overnight without having that blip ⁓ early in the morning.
Fallon Cook (40:47)
Hmm
Mmm, I think that's really good advice. ⁓ Fingers crossed that he starts to have that nice long overnight stretch again.
Dr Laura (41:10)
Yes.
And so Sarah has written in, she has an eight month old who sometimes cries intensely after being placed in his cot. And that might be for two minutes or it might be for half an hour. He has a sleep need of about 12 and a half hours and two naps totaling two and a half hours, sleeps overnight from nine until eight with one wake up.
Sarah says that settling has been a persistent challenge, but he now settles independently after they attended an early parenting centre before she joined Somme Bell. She says that despite the fact that he can settle independently, the crying can feel discouraging. She's wondering what might be causing these episodes of crying and whether any adjustments to nap timing or the daily rhythm could help. Or she's also wondering if perhaps crying is just normal for some babies.
⁓ and if her expectations are a little bit unrealistic.
Fallon Cook (42:12)
I love this question. Look, some crying at bedtime is just normal. We've talked about that before how some babies, whenever there's a transition, they just don't willingly want to really do it. So some babies will just have a big cry, let out all their energy and go to sleep. It doesn't matter what we do, it's just kind of how they are. ⁓ But we can still think about what we could do to minimise that crying. So one thing jumps out at me straight off the bat.
Dr Laura (42:14)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (42:41)
is that that's a 13 and a half hour daily rhythm. ⁓ Unless you want there to be a one hour overnight wake up, I'm assuming you don't, ⁓ I would trim that. I would stick to a 12 and a half hour daily rhythm, because that could make a really big difference for how long it takes him to settle. And it might mean that there's far less crying, because maybe at the moment he's sometimes being put down when sleep drive isn't quite there and he's feeling frustrated and that could be why he's crying.
Dr Laura (42:44)
Mm.
Mm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (43:10)
You could certainly adapt that daily rhythm. ⁓ You know, could just be having an earlier wake up even ⁓ and just seeing after a week, does that help to make the settling time a bit quicker? This 30 minutes is definitely a long time. It makes me think that sleep drive isn't quite high enough. And then I'd also be thinking about what you do to settle him. So the reason I say this is that some early parenting centers,
Dr Laura (43:17)
you
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (43:37)
actually a whole bunch of different sleep services. ⁓ Some of them will suggest approaches where you're gone for a long time and then when you go back to your baby, you can do anything you want for a minute or two minutes or five minutes or whatever it is. I reckon that creates a real peeking crying because they sort of don't know what you're going to do when you go back in. I'd be thinking, your intervals pretty short if you are wandering out of the room before he falls asleep. ⁓
And when you go back in and stick to just one thing, because then your baby realizes, ⁓ you know, mom or dad or whoever, ⁓ they're still around, but when they come in, it's a few pats, it's a phrase or whatever it's going to be. It's just the same thing. It's brief. And then that's it. So then they sort of start to go, well, that's not very exciting. You know, I don't get a pickup or a feed or a pat or a, you know, bouncing or whatever else it could be.
Dr Laura (44:18)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (44:31)
⁓
keep it really consistent because if you're coming and going reasonably frequently, just doing the same boring, repetitive thing, I feel like that is what really helps to reduce crying. ⁓ and coupled of course, with high enough sleep pressure, but they're able to get to sleep quickly. ⁓
Dr Laura (44:41)
Yes.
You know, Fallon,
I'm just looking at the next question and I think that your answer really applies to that question from Caitlin as well. Shall I just read it out briefly? So Caitlin has a seven and a half month old and who used to settle readily for the naps, occasionally fussing briefly and then was sleeping for an hour to an hour and a half each nap.
Fallon Cook (44:56)
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Dr Laura (45:14)
But over the last four days, when Caitlin sent this message, the baby's actually been crying hysterically at every nap time, taking 20 to 30 minutes to settle, and then waking up after only one sleep cycle. But nighttime sleep currently is unaffected. Caitlin has wondered whether the fact that her seven and a half month old has started standing up in her cot, pulling herself up on furniture might have something.
to do with it and whether we've got any tips with managing that nap behaviour. I think what made me think it's similar to perhaps something similar is going on for Caitlin as might be happening for Sarah is that in this instance, the baby's behaviour is changing at nap time and is pulling herself up to stand. Therefore, that might mean that Caitlin's doing something different each time she's coming in at nap time because there's a different behaviour that needs to be responded to.
Fallon Cook (46:08)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (46:12)
And then the baby's like, okay, something different is happening now. And perhaps then that is leading to an escalation in the crying behavior.
Fallon Cook (46:16)
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah. And it's human nature, isn't it? And for babies as well, that if, know, when you do something like often, I think for the analogy of, know, if there's a vending machine, I don't know, it's blank. You don't know what it does, but there's a button on the front. You push the button. If something different comes out every time it's a piece of chocolate, it's a little race car, it's 10 bucks, you know, you're just going to keep pressing that button. Like what is going to happen next? Like we all would, we all would do it. be like, Ooh, what, what's going to happen? But if.
Dr Laura (46:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (46:53)
Each time it's a piece of chocolate. You love chocolate. You're like, this is awesome. You're going to press the button a bunch of times, but after maybe 10 times, you're going to be like, yeah, I know what happens. It's always a piece of chocolate. I'm only going to press this button now if I really want the chocolate. ⁓ and that's, you know, probably sounds a bit crazy, that analogy, but that's kind of how human brains work. You know, when there is absolute consistency, when we do one thing and we get the same response becomes pretty boring. ⁓
Dr Laura (47:06)
Mm-hmm.
you
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (47:20)
But if we do something slightly different than, a baby or a toddler will be like, so if I pull myself up to stand, you know, especially with those parents, and I know you can't help it because I would have done it too, but the parents who see on the monitor that they're staying up and they walk in there and they go, ⁓ look at you. You know, how did you do that? You clever thing. And these toddlers are just like, wow, this response is awesome. I'm so proud of myself.
Dr Laura (47:36)
Yeah
you
Fallon Cook (47:46)
let me show you how to do this mom I'm gonna like I'm gonna do it 50 times now before I go to sleep because I want this really you know amazing reaction so yeah yeah it definitely as they get a bit older and really start to figure out or want to figure out how the world works it certainly does become a bit more challenging
Dr Laura (48:04)
Yes,
yeah. Something else that Caitlin could be looking at is, I'm just thinking about how the settling is one thing. And then the other issue is that her baby has started to do shorter naps rather than the longer naps. And again, that could be because if she is going, being settled a little bit differently for nap times now that she's standing up.
Fallon Cook (48:23)
Mmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (48:34)
maybe after one sleep cycle, she's springing awake. But it could be that her sleep needs have just changed a little bit. perhaps she doesn't need, if both of her naps were an hour and a half, she was having three hours worth of daytime sleep. As babies get older, their sleep tends to push more and more into the nighttime until they're not having naps at all anymore. And so maybe she just doesn't need as much daytime sleep and wants to push that sleep into the night.
Fallon Cook (48:44)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (49:04)
It may be that she just has one long nap and one short nap and that's also okay.
Fallon Cook (49:04)
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely. Cause Caitlin's saying nighttime sleep is unaffected. Well, we want to keep it that way. So if your baby's trying to drop some sleep because they're ready for it, let them drop, not necessarily drop the naps, but let them reduce the length of their naps. Cause we want that over them suddenly deciding, I'm going to have a party at 3am for an hour because I had way too much day sleep for what I actually need. ⁓ yeah. So hopefully that advice helps both Sarah and Caitlin. ⁓
Dr Laura (49:16)
Hmm. Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (49:39)
Good luck and give us an update. Love to hear how you get on. And of course, if you need more support, there are coaching calls available and we can always take a really close look at what's happening.
Dr Laura (49:42)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (49:50)
Good, all right, shall I read out Manique? Manique has a 14 month old whose previously consistent sleep has recently changed. He started childcare a few weeks ago and has started showing signs of separation anxiety and he also became unwell. that's a tricky combo. Although he'd previously stopped feeding overnight, he started again when he was sick.
Dr Laura (49:53)
Yes.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (50:14)
He has also been waking early for the day, but can resettle after a feed until 6.30 to 7 a.m. Maniki is wondering what to do with routine and night wakes with illness, especially as she anticipates he will be sick a lot now he's in childcare.
Dr Laura (50:30)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, really tricky when sickness and a big change in a child's life collide. And unfortunately, daycare and sickness do often collide. Those little germ factories that our children go to. I mean, they're wonderful in many, many ways. And I use daycare for both of my kids, as most of us do. So I'm not casting any aspersions here.
Fallon Cook (50:43)
Hmm.
You
Dr Laura (51:00)
So the fact that your child previously could sleep without a feed just helps us know that he can go all night without a feed. When he does get unwell again, I'd be thinking about offering water overnight rather than ⁓ offering feeds per se. Oftentimes when we are sick, are more thirsty overnight, particularly if we've got a temperature and it is important to keep hydration levels up.
So it would be perfectly reasonable to offer more fluids overnight. But I'd be offering water rather than reintroducing breastfeeds or formula feeds, unless you've been advised otherwise by your medical doctors. Some children, perhaps if they have a hand, foot and mouth or something that's impeding their ability to take in calories during the day, might need some calories overnight. But ⁓ yeah, I would take advice from your medical prep.
around that. ⁓ Now, what else to do when they're sick? ⁓ offering more, yeah, you go, Fallon.
Fallon Cook (52:04)
Hmm. Yeah, it's, I
was gonna say it's so tricky when they're sick to get them back on track when they suddenly go, hang on, night feeds are on the table sometimes. What I've been suggesting to quite a few parents lately who've had this exact problem, because there's so many bugs going around, is drop the feed. You can just drop that feed, cold turkey, your child's old enough, they will be fine off of water if you're worried about thirst. But
Dr Laura (52:12)
Mm. Mm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (52:34)
for maybe a couple of days before you do that, load them up on other calories in the daytime. So it's probably not the time to introduce them to foods they've never had before or are unlikely to like. You might stick to some favorites, yogurts, porridges, mashed potatoes, things that are high in calories and really yummy that your child likes, because if we can load them up on those calories in the daytime.
Dr Laura (52:44)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (52:56)
then their drive to get those calories overnight is going to start to reduce. we don't know, but it might make it a bit easier when you say, actually, no, we're not having a feed this time, buddy, we're going back to sleep again. And yeah, I think a lot of parents like using that strategy of just bringing in more calories in the daytime in an easy way before you take away the overnight feed.
Dr Laura (53:07)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a really good tip, Fallon. like that one. And yeah, depending on how unwell your little one is, he may need more sleep during the day. He might need a slightly earlier bedtime. Don't go wild. Unless he's really unwell, then just, all bets are off. You know, just if you get the flu yourself, I often say you need to sleep all day. If your baby gets the flu, they need to sleep a lot.
Fallon Cook (53:21)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (53:46)
⁓ so just adding in extra sleep that is, ⁓ appropriate for the type of illness that your little one has. might only be an extra 30 minutes if it's just a very mild cold, but it might be a lot more if they're really unwell. ⁓ and then just thinking through, ⁓ whether they need, when they're unwell, do they need a little bit extra support, as they go to sleep? So perhaps it's a case of just patting the mattress. ⁓
Fallon Cook (54:01)
Mm.
Dr Laura (54:14)
or just resting your hand briefly on their body ⁓ as they go to sleep. And then once they're better, starting to ⁓ wean off that support. And then you're just ensured that your child is getting all the sleep that they need whilst they're unwell, that they've been supported whilst they're unwell, but then know that there's a strategy to get back to the good sleep habits that they had previous to that point.
Fallon Cook (54:25)
Hmm.
Hmm, good advice. All right, we've got two last questions to race through. ⁓ Ava says her toddler is 23 months old and he's normally quite upset after waking up from his nap. It can take him about 45 minutes to pick up and be his normal self again, unless there's a really good distraction like visiting the grandparents. Ava says we used to his naps at two hours, but recently started capping the nap at an hour and a half to see if that means we can put him to bed a little earlier.
Dr Laura (54:45)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (55:10)
Changing the time we wake him after a nap doesn't seem to make a lot of difference to his mood. If we do let him sleep longer so he wakes more rested, he goes to bed later. Do we have any thoughts on that?
Dr Laura (55:21)
Yeah. So Ava, I'd be thinking about how long your total sleep cycles are and ensuring that you're not waking him mid sleep cycle with that. Normally an hour and a half nap is, you know, whether it's 45 minutes or half an hour sleep cycle that normally works well. So in all likelihood, that duration is all right.
But just double check how long his sleep cycles are to make sure that you're not waking him mid cycle. And that might be making him feel a little bit grotty when he wakes up. I think it's interesting that if you have something really motivating for him on waking even from a short nap, he picks up pretty quickly. something that some parents find helpful is to have a, like a wake up menu of some activities that your toddler absolutely loves to help motivate him to get out of bed.
Fallon Cook (55:56)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (56:12)
quickly and warm up more readily. So think about creating a piece of paper with lots of pictures on or pictures of favourite activities. Maybe it's seeing grandparents, maybe it is going to the park, maybe it's helping you make pancakes in the kitchen or whatever it is that you think that your toddler might like doing. And so when you wake him up after that hour and a half, say, which one of these do you want to do?
or have a set the station with some toys set up. I've got up the teddy bears are having a picnic in the kitchen. Let's go and have a look so that you can get them up and get them going. ⁓ And you're not then having that 45 minutes of him ⁓ being a little bit slow and he will adjust. ⁓ And yeah, so just hang in there. And ultimately we do want to at this age, we want to be pushing.
Fallon Cook (56:48)
Mmm.
Nah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (57:06)
the sleep overnight. So you're doing the right thing to start to reduce the duration of that nap. ⁓ And I know that if you keep the long nap, bedtime's really late and then that's difficult for the family. So yeah, I hope those tips help over.
Fallon Cook (57:21)
I think those are lovely strategies. I'd just be like, chuck the tally on and we'll have a cuddle for 45 minutes. I'd be making that my, my, my downtime as a parent. I'd just, yeah, bluey. Would you go on? So your strategies are much nicer than mine.
Dr Laura (57:31)
Yeah
I know, you can tell who did the PhD on parent-child interaction.
Okay, and our last
question is from Naomi and Naomi has a 19 month old who's an early riser waking somewhere between five and 6am but sometimes four. ⁓ That's horrible. He has one nap lasting between one and two hours and goes to bed around 730. So Naomi says he's now fighting his nap tooth and nail and is not tired at bedtime.
She says, the kicker on top of all this is the split nights, sometimes three to four hours awake in the night. Wow. She said, we've tried settling in that time, but it's just impossible. We had a patch where the split nights stopped, but they have come back with a vengeance lately. She says, I know the advice is not to drop a nap completely until two years, but is it possible he's almost ready at this age?
Or should I start with one sleep cycle, 45 minutes and see if this helps?
Fallon Cook (58:38)
I think Naomi, you need to keep the sleep diary, work through the unique sleep needs chapter, work out what his unique sleep needs are, and then spend a week or two just working on the daily rhythm that fits his unique sleep needs before you even think about changing the settling. Three to four hour split nights is massive. ⁓ There is definitely a significant timing problem there.
Dr Laura (58:54)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (59:02)
⁓
so I would definitely be working through that chapter because catering to his inic sleep needs is going to be absolutely key. And like I said, one week minimum on that new daily rhythm. So we're starting to get that pattern in place. So it might mean waking him up at a particular time. Maybe it will be capping his nap, ⁓ at a shorter nap. If he just seems like a real goer who doesn't want to nap much. Well, that might be fine. maybe it will be a short nap.
Dr Laura (59:09)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (59:28)
guided by the advice in that chapter because it's going to be so important to get that timing piece just right. And then when you do go to work on, you know, if there's anything you need to do in terms of settling and, and that side of things, it will be so much easier. ⁓ One, when that timing issue is addressed and you're only settling him when he's truly tired and ready for sleep. And that does sound very, very challenging. And I know I've said it a few times, but if you want to talk about it,
Dr Laura (59:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (59:58)
I've still got some availability later this week for coaching calls. So anyone of our Sunbound members who's like, I really need a bit of a hand with this particular problem, ⁓ jump online and book in with me and I can look at the sleep diary. We can talk through the behaviors around sleep and come up with just the exact right plan that we need in place so that you can have as quick a progress as possible. So on that note, there are a things coming up we want to let you know about. So
Dr Laura (1:00:23)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (1:00:24)
There are a couple of baby sleep webinars coming up that I'm doing for the Raising Children Network. And they're to be really fun this time because we're doing a Q &A type segment. So it's a bit more of a conversation between me and the wonderful Derek, who's the director of the Raising Children Network. ⁓ The first is tomorrow night and it's focusing on newborns, so zero to three months of age ⁓ babies. So if you've got a younger baby or you're expecting one, ⁓ definitely tune in. You can register for that. I'll pop a link in the show notes.
Dr Laura (1:00:35)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (1:00:54)
And if you can't join tomorrow night, you can always watch it back later on as well. And then in a fortnight's time, we're doing the same thing again, but talking about baby sleep ⁓ in babies four to 12 months of age. It's a great way to ⁓ just get to the lowdown on sleep. You can submit questions and things as well. Should be really fun night for everyone. We also have coming up this Saturday, Laura and I ⁓ have pre-recorded a presentation for
Dr Laura (1:01:13)
Mm.
Fallon Cook (1:01:23)
what's called Parents Day. So we were invited by the International Congress on Evidence-Based Parenting Support, I remembered, Laura, otherwise shortened to ICEPS. ⁓ It's a great big international conference where they pull in lots of experts on different topics. And for Parents Day, they've got these experts talking to their topic in a parent-friendly kind of format. And it's only $22 for ⁓ a ticket to the whole day. So you can join in and learn about all sorts of parenting stuff.
Dr Laura (1:01:32)
Yes, well done!
Fallon Cook (1:01:53)
We're specifically talking about bedtime in children from two years of age all the way through to the teenage years. So yeah, it's a great one to join in on if you can. What else do we need to say? There's a little link in the show notes if you would like to buy us a coffee. We love it when people buy us coffees. It's always so lovely and we've had some lovely messages with those as well. So thank you so much to those who have done that. And of course, if you are struggling with sleep and settling, we are here to help.
Dr Laura (1:02:11)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (1:02:22)
We cut through all the nonsense around sleep. We provide that common sense middle ground and practical strategies that parents need. And it's all advice that is evidence-based, but we actually practice this advice every day in our sleep clinics and we've worked with thousands of parents. So if you're feeling lost and confused, ⁓ check out Sombao or come and book into our sleep clinics. There's multiple ways that you can ⁓ come and have support with Laura and I and our amazing team of practitioners.
So on that note, it's been a long episode, Laura. We got through everything in the end though. But to all of our lovely listeners, we hope you have a fantastic week and ⁓ yeah, look us up online. Come follow us on social media. We'll be posting videos throughout the week.
Dr Laura (1:02:55)
Yes.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
