Fallon Cook (00:37)
Have you ever woken up to your baby or toddler crying at 3am and wondered, what on earth am I going to do now? Well, you're in good company. Both Laura and I have hit the occasional roadblock with our children's sleep, where despite our knowledge about sleep, we've had to sit ourselves down, go back to basics and begin to troubleshoot. It happens to all of us.
So today we're going to address 10 brilliant questions that we have been sent from members of our Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs, because we know that you love to hear how other parents are managing and who knows, you might even find that someone else is experiencing the exact same thing as you. So boil the kettle, put your feet up if you can, and let's dive in.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, we have survived another round of school holidays. How was it for you?
Dr Laura (01:57)
Yes, yes, fine.
But I am, you we often say sleep loves structure, but I think Laura loves structure in general. And during the holidays when we don't record the podcast and yeah, clinic days change, everything feels all just a little bit out of whack. So in some regards, I'm quite pleased to be ⁓ back into term time again, so that the structure can come back to my life. ⁓ How about you?
Fallon Cook (02:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's all about finding that balance, isn't it? Like I find it such a relief to have a break from just that it feels like you're on a bit of a treadmill with the school run and the school pickup and the doing things with the kids and juggling work and managing like all these crazy schedules. It's nice to kind of just drop that for a bit. ⁓ but yeah, it does raise other challenges like being on a recorded podcast becomes incredibly difficult. ⁓
Dr Laura (02:44)
Yes.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (02:53)
Yeah. And of course, yeah, getting back into the rhythm again can be a bit hard as well. ⁓ but yeah, it's the first time I think we've ever taken two weeks in a row off the podcast, but I think we really needed to, like my family got absolutely hit with RSV. How revolting is RSV? My God, we were so crook. ⁓ so I, yeah, was coughing a lot. Didn't really have much voice. ⁓ but anyway, it was still really nice to just kind of go to ground, even though we were unwell and it was very annoying.
Dr Laura (03:03)
Yes.
Mmm. Mmm.
No.
Fallon Cook (03:21)
It's easy to kind of expect it in a Victorian winter, don't you? And it was just cosy.
Dr Laura (03:25)
Yes. Yeah. And look, was still
seeing families in clinic on and off during the holidays and quite a few had to reschedule due to sickness because I just, you know, I think a lot of families will really sympathize with you Fallon, because, you know, knowing that you had flu and then RSV and it going through the whole household, there are just so many Sombelle families in the same boat.
Fallon Cook (03:37)
Yeah.
Yeah,
Dr Laura (03:55)
And it's, I mean, it's,
Fallon Cook (03:55)
there are.
Dr Laura (03:57)
it's awful having sick children and it's just even worse when they're just babies and toddlers. Cause at least our ones are a bit older and they can take their Panadol and Nurofen and understand what's going on. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (04:02)
Mmm.
Yeah. ⁓
it's so true. Yeah. And I saw a few clients over the past couple of weeks as well. And it's like whiplash going from like full mom mode to then being like, now I've got to be the sleep person again. I put that hat back on again and help these poor tired parents. So it's like, that shift from trying to switch hats is, ⁓ is wild. But, but yeah, it does get easier when the kids are older for sure. They're much happier to kind of make their own fun.
Dr Laura (04:21)
Yes!
Yes.
It does.
I got told off the other day actually thinking about the hats I got told off by my children because they asked me a question and I answered it and they said, mum, you just put on your professional voice to answer us. And they were really disturbed by it. But they sounded like you sound like you're on one of your calls mum. So sorry about that.
Fallon Cook (04:39)
when there's lots to juggle.
Hehehehehe ⁓
That's
funny. Didn't whip them into gear? Were they like, whoa, mum means business. ⁓ If only. Yeah. Yeah. Well, all of this chaos that we've had over the past couple of weeks has meant that our night waking master classes, which we talked about in our last episode.
Dr Laura (05:07)
No, I don't think so. There's always a hope, but no.
Fallon Cook (05:24)
haven't quite launched yet. think trying to find time to record them was a bit beyond my capacity in the past couple of weeks, ⁓ but they are coming really soon, which is really, really exciting. And it has also meant that I have not even had a chance to go into our system and turn off our end of financial year sale. noticed a lot of parents have taken advantage of that. There's been a lot of new members probably from parents going, what this sale is still going.
Dr Laura (05:26)
Mmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (05:53)
It will end pretty soon too, because ⁓ it has to. But I've just got to actually sit down and do it. So yeah, if you're thinking of joining, definitely move quickly, because I will be shutting that off pretty soon. But yeah, so we've got a lot of parent questions to catch up on, which made me think, let's just do an episode where we really pick apart some of these great questions that have come through. What do think, Laura? Should we dive into those now?
Dr Laura (05:55)
You
Yes.
Yeah,
yeah. Shall I start off? I'll read the first question from Miranda. So Miranda has a four month old and is using the supported accelerated approach. She said that overnight it's working really well. Her baby now falls asleep in the cot in 10 to 15 minutes and wakes only once overnight for a feed and resettles quickly, which is great. Miranda says though that day naps are difficult.
Fallon Cook (06:23)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (06:46)
She says that her baby cries for 20 to 30 minutes in the progress, sorry, in the cot with no progress. And it is, it's just still switching on. It's about 80 % there. ⁓ Sorry, Miranda. So her baby cries for 20 to 30 minutes in the cot and no progress happens. And she says that he also really dislikes the pram and the car.
Fallon Cook (06:53)
It's alright, your brain's still coming back on board.
You
Dr Laura (07:16)
crying immediately when placed in them. So Miranda wonders if it's better to just use the carrier for naps instead of persisting with the cot settles, which she finds really distressing. What do you think?
Fallon Cook (07:30)
I love this question. I think it really comes down to parent goals and what you feel you can manage as well. So I think there's a case to be made for saying, you know what? I'm finding it really distressing in the daytime and I'm just going to do contact naps in the carrier for a couple of weeks, give myself a break. Then I'll address the day naps in the cot when I feel like I've got a bit more resolve and I'm really feeling sort of ready for it. That would be a perfectly fine choice to make.
Dr Laura (07:35)
Mm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (07:58)
But if Miranda is thinking, you know, I'm so exhausted, I just need progress. I don't like doing carrying apps. I'd rather just, you know, my baby makes this adjustment to cot settling so I can have my hands free, because that's a very valid, ⁓ valid need for parents as well. Then you could absolutely take the opposite tack and say, you know what, I'm going to build the support up around me. And for a few days, we're just going to really work on the cot settling.
⁓ and help him make a quicker adjustment. That would be absolutely valid as well. If you take that path, I would say look really closely at the daily rhythm because if he's upset for 20 or 30 minutes in the cot and even upset going in the pram or the car, I'm just wondering if this is a real FOMO baby who's like, no, I don't want to go to sleep. I don't want to be stuck in the pram or the car. I've got things to do. It might be that this baby's naps can be pushed a little bit later. They're just going to be a lot more tired to really
Dr Laura (08:26)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (08:52)
fall asleep easily. So if you do decide to persist with cot settling, just make sure you've addressed that daily rhythm, maybe push the naps a little bit later, really let that sleep pressure build up so that you've got the easiest time possible. And hopefully that cot settling will be a lot easier than what it has been, Miranda. ⁓ What do you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (08:54)
Hmm.
Yeah, I think that's a really sensible answer, Fallon, choosing your goals, Miranda. And if you want to just carry on for the time being, like Fallon says, doing carrier naps, just ensuring that you're using the carrier safely and that your baby's airways are ⁓ clear, that their chin isn't dropping down whilst they're in the carrier. And doing that whilst you...
as Fallon says, kind of recover and then when the time is right, make that switch to cot settling. Yeah, so good luck, Miranda. It sounds like your baby is linking lots of sleep cycles all through the night because they're only waking once. So it doesn't look like the day naps are impacting the nighttime sleep currently. in which case it would be fine to continue doing those contact naps if that's what you choose to do.
Fallon Cook (09:52)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Mmm, yeah, it's great that the nights are going so well. That's really promising. Yeah. Katie wrote in, has a baby who is currently teething and waking every one to two hours overnight. They've been sticking to a 6.45am wake up despite the rough nights, but she's wondering if it's okay to let the baby sleep in a little when the poor sleep is due to teething. What do you reckon?
Dr Laura (10:12)
Yeah.
⁓ Yeah, can be. I think it's probably going to be case of experimenting, Katie. ⁓ I'd be of course ensuring that you're giving your baby all of the pain relief that they need. So speaking to your pharmacist about Panadol, Neurofen and any other strategies you could use ⁓ to ensure that their pain is under control and during the day giving them
Fallon Cook (10:47)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (11:02)
teethings to use that have been cooled in the fridge, for example, to help relieve some of the swelling and discomfort on the gums. And then seeing, okay, even if the pain is under control, they're still waking a lot. You could give it a go and say, perhaps if we move wake up to seven o'clock or 7.15.
see if that helps everyone just get a little bit more rest before those teeth pop out. If you find that actually moving wake up a bit later results in even more wakings overnight, then we go, well, that experiment hasn't worked. And actually, maybe the teething is a confounding factor. Maybe actually your baby's sleep needs have changed a little bit.
Fallon Cook (11:44)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (11:55)
do that, I don't know how old your baby is Katie, but I'm guessing at least six months. Do they need to drop a nap? Is the ⁓ teething a red herring? Is it actually that maybe your baby's on three or four naps and needs to drop down to two or three? Is the wake up actually a little bit too late or the bedtime a bit too early? So getting the pain under control first, I think is gonna be the main factor and using the pain relief overnight as recommended by your doctor or pharmacist.
Fallon Cook (12:09)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (12:26)
and then doing a bit of experimentation. Move, wake up a bit later in the morning, see if it helps. If it doesn't, ⁓ then actually maybe the teething isn't the cause of those overnight wakes. Do you have anything else that you would add?
Fallon Cook (12:38)
Yeah,
no, I like the way you've approached that because there are parents we see who are like, ⁓ I thought it was teething for months and months and months. So we kind of, you know, didn't worry too much about sleep. We're like, when teething stops, you know, it'll be better.
⁓ and then eventually I realized actually it's not really the teething like teething was part of it, but you know, teething pain usually doesn't go on for months and months and months. So, ⁓ I liked the idea of having a bit of an experiment, definitely using that pain relief. So you can be confident that pain's not the factor. ⁓ yeah, it's a really good idea. Good luck, Katie. It's really tricky.
Dr Laura (13:01)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah. Okay, we have a question from Phoebe who has
a four month old baby with a 13 hour average sleep need and she's working out a good daily rhythm for him. She's got two questions. The first is about sleep cycle length. She's not confident of this as he sometimes sleeps for 25 minutes and sometimes 35 minutes. Phoebe splits the difference, 30 minutes.
but her baby sometimes seems to be in deep sleep when she wakes him so she asks is this okay and her next question is whether it matters if the naps vary in number length and timing throughout the day as long as she caps them at three hours total and ensures a good wake window before bedtime they're good questions aren't they Fallon
Fallon Cook (14:05)
Really good questions. Yeah,
absolutely. So first of all, my best estimate of Phoebe's baby's sleep cycle length would be it's probably 35 minutes. The reason why they're sometimes waking at 25 minutes could just be that there's a bit of a noise or something going on that kind of woke them when they were in light sleep. Doesn't mean that they were, you know, at the end of the sleep cycle at that 25 minute mark. So I'd probably, my best guess is it's 35 minutes, but have a bit of an experiment.
you know, trial waking them at slightly different times. And there'll be a time where you find them really easy to wake and less cranky about being woken up to. And that should really tell you exactly how long that sleep cycle is. So yeah, you can definitely keep having a bit of a play in that regard. And then with that second question. does it matter if the naps vary in number, length and timing if they're capped at three hours total and there's a good long wake window before bed?
Dr Laura (14:47)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (15:03)
So this is kind of age dependent. So I'm guessing that Phoebe's worked out three hours is what her baby needs for a good daily rhythm, which is great. At four months, I would say doesn't matter too much, but I'd probably expect, you know, three or four naps per day. If we're talking like five or six really tiny naps right across the day, I would say, try and dial that back a bit. But often at four months, you know, when I see families in clinic, we will come up with a plan that's like,
Dr Laura (15:21)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (15:32)
You know, might be three or four naps, but this is the total amount of sleep per day, ⁓ irrespective of how many naps there are. And I would be saying just make sure that last wake window before bedtime is the longest one of the day. ⁓ So yes, for a young baby, would say, yeah, they can vary, the naps can vary in number and length a little bit and timing. But as a baby gets older, I would start to become a little bit more rigid with that because certainly like,
Dr Laura (15:36)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (15:58)
a nine month old can't sometimes have two and sometimes have three naps. That generally won't work. Well, they really need to be on two. So I hope that helps, Phoebe. I think at four months of age, you do still, yeah, you can have that little bit of flexibility. ⁓ If you're noticing though, nights are really, really challenging. You've got really persistent night waking problems. Then I would say, okay, let's try being a bit more predictable in the daytime and see if that helps to improve things.
Dr Laura (16:03)
Yeah.
Mm.
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, I think
that sounds like really good advice, Fallon. So yeah, hang in there Phoebe. And yeah, trial that 35 minute nap length or increments of. So you'd be looking at naps around 35 minutes or an hour 10 ish. And yes, see how your little one gets on.
Fallon Cook (16:45)
Mmm.
Yeah, yep, excellent. ⁓ Ria wrote in with a really interesting question. she has an 18 month old who bangs their head when frustrated during the day and now also at night. He falls asleep independently at bedtime that can wake for long stretches at night for up to two hours. And he's head banging audibly on the cot rails, sometimes leaving bruises. Ria's unsure how to respond and what to do. What do you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (16:59)
Mm.
⁓
Yeah, Rhea, headbanging can be a behaviour that we do see in toddlers when they're learning to regulate their emotions. It's a general rule of thumb if we're seeing that headbanging is not resolving. ⁓ And particularly in your ⁓ toddler's case, Rhea, where it's actually increasing, because he's doing it during the day and doing it at night.
General rule is to seek some advice from a pediatrician to double check that there's nothing else going on. Usually there isn't, but the fact that your little one is sometimes leaving bruises, so he is actually hurting himself, does warrant ⁓ a little bit of investigation. Try to avoid using cop bumpers.
That can be something that parents will often want to use. Some parents instead will use a portacot whilst they're for the investigations because a portacot has the mesh sides. So a baby is less likely to hurt themselves on the ⁓ cot rails. But yeah, I would be making an appointment with the GP, just to get that checked out. What do you think, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (18:43)
Hmm. Yeah, I think headbanging is a really interesting one because it's that sort of often toddlers find it soothing that repetitive kind of motion of it and the sensation of it as well. So some toddlers will headbang to help themselves fall asleep and it's really not a problem. They just do it for a little while and it resolves and it's fine. But a general rule is if it is causing injury, then just to investigate that there's not something else going on.
And I'd also just be thinking too, if he's having stretches of up to two hours awake overnight, he might be feeling a lot of frustration. If he's having split nights, he's wide awake, potentially feeling very frustrated and annoyed. He knows he needs to go to sleep, but he just can't do it. So I'd look really carefully at that daily rhythm. It might be that it's, you know, certainly he should be on one nap if he's 18 months old. Is that nap really long? Is bedtime really early that maybe we just need to
Dr Laura (19:20)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (19:41)
use
that unique sleep needs chapter to really iron out a daily rhythm that really fits this child's unique sleep needs. And that might mean then those two hour wakes disappear and the head banging starts to reduce or even resolve. So yeah, there's a couple of things to into there, Ria. But yeah, great question. Love that question.
Dr Laura (19:53)
Mm.
⁓
Okay, our next question is from Nina, who sent a really lovely email actually, Fallon about how far her family's come since joining Somme Bell. So thank you for those lovely words, Nina. Yeah, so Nina's ⁓ toddler, 16 months old, with an 11 hour sleep need. So he's made great progress.
Fallon Cook (20:12)
⁓ thanks Nina, it means the world.
Dr Laura (20:28)
but is still waking one to three times overnight, sometimes for one to two hours after 2am. He naps in the cot with patting and humming, which they haven't consistently faded out just yet. He's had a bumpy start with his physical health and Nina describes him as a very sensitive toddler. They cap his nap at one hour, even though his sleep cycle length is 40 minutes.
in order for him to be able to have a 10 hour stretch overnight. So Nina wonders if she should extend the nap to two cycles, which would be an hour 10 minutes, or would have been our 20 minutes, even though this means he'll have a later bedtime. And she also asks how to reduce those final overnight wakes.
Fallon Cook (21:09)
20 I think. Yeah.
It's a bit of a complicated one, isn't it? So yeah, where to begin? I love that, you you've done all this work and you've come so far Nina, it's absolutely fantastic. So definitely, you know, there could be, it could be a really good idea to start to phase out the padding and humming. I mean, it could be that, you know, he's waking one to three times overnight, kind of going, where are you? Come back over here and give me those pats. And I want to hear that humming.
Dr Laura (21:23)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (21:47)
So by phasing that out, we might then end up with a toddler who wakes up, goes, yep, everything's exactly as it was when I fell asleep. No one's patting or humming, but that's fine. And then he'll start to resettle himself. So definitely would work on that. You mentioned that he's very sensitive. that's where it's definitely worth weighing up. So with sensitive kids, sometimes a really gradual phase out of hands-on support works beautifully. And other times it drives them crazy and they...
Dr Laura (21:57)
Mm.
Hehehehe
Fallon Cook (22:17)
hate
it and actually they would cope better with one change to just not having the padding and the humming and make making one big adjustment that's well supported you still be giving lots of support and that sort of thing but have a bit of a think if it might actually be easier he might be the sort of child where the nights just won't improve until we're we're phased out that hands-on support then in terms of the nap so if he's being woken up mid-sleep cycle he's probably pretty cranky when he wakes
Dr Laura (22:37)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (22:46)
So I think we want to try and match the length of the nap to the length of the sleep cycle, whether it's going for 40 minutes, which is not a lot of sleep for in the day for a 16 month old, ⁓ or trialing the one hour and 20 minutes and just seeing like have a bit of an experiment, see what he does better with. he, you know, some toddlers are absolute FOMO toddlers and they love having a short nap and it suits them really well. And the nights are wonderful. So if he's like that, that actually could be great.
Dr Laura (22:54)
Hmm.
Mm. Yep.
Fallon Cook (23:15)
But you might find you make that nap a bit longer, push bedtime a little bit later, and actually that's what really fits in well. So the only way to really figure that out is to choose one way of doing it, do it consistently for a week, see how the nights pan out. ⁓ If it doesn't go well, try the other way and you'll get a bit of a sense of which option ⁓ is preferable. ⁓ So I think that's probably it really, thinking about that total sleep requirement, ⁓ making sure, you know, it
Dr Laura (23:21)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (23:44)
adds up to 11 hours and also just making sure we've got the independent settling skills developing there as well. ⁓ But it is a bit of a complicated one. Could be that a coaching call is a good idea, Nina, just so I can check in about what those physical challenges were. So if you are a bit stuck, it's something we could definitely have a chat through. But what do you think, Laura? There's a lot to unpack in there if I missed anything.
Dr Laura (24:04)
Mm.
Yeah there is, now think you gave a really comprehensive answer. It does sound like those wakes are quite extended and I know in Nina's longer email it was about half the time, three or four nights a week he's up for one to two hours in the night. that's often we see that when the sleep pressure isn't quite high enough to
support our babies and toddlers to maintain their sleep for long stretches. those extended wakes would be thinking first of all are all of those physical issues ruled out? Is there anything going on medically that might be accounting for those long wakes if all of those
underlying issues have been resolved then we are thinking about sleep pressure really because even if your little one was waking up startled because you are no longer there when you had been there when he fell asleep that's a very long time to stay awake once you're back over with him you know two hours would be a lot that is a long time we're doing the patting and the humming so
Fallon Cook (25:23)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (25:35)
Yeah, it may be Nina that a coaching call would be helpful. But don't, if you don't want to do a coaching call, of course, that's fine as well. But don't be worried that ⁓ late bedtime is going to do any harm. you know, sometimes as parents, we will have a time in our head. You know, for some parents, it's like bedtime cannot be past seven o'clock.
Fallon Cook (25:36)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (25:56)
And for others, bedtime can't be past eight o'clock or wake up cannot be any earlier than 7.30 in the morning. And these are just arbitrary times. And we know when we look at sleep across cultures, there's a whole range of bedtimes. It's really culturally driven. So if you're thinking that eight o'clock is just too late and anything beyond that is going to do damage, just remember that that's an arbitrary time for our culture.
Fallon Cook (26:14)
Mm, yeah.
Dr Laura (26:26)
So if your child actually needs an 8.30 bedtime because he does have a low sleep need, that's okay. You're not going to do him any harm. It's actually going to ensure that he's able to have all of that sleep in one stretch overnight without having a split night, for example, if it is a sleep pressure issue.
Fallon Cook (26:26)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah,
it's such a good point Laura and I couldn't help but giggle a bit because I'm thinking about my own children and their expectations around their own bedtimes and how, you know, even knowing what I know it took me a staggeringly long time to realise that my eldest needed a later bedtime. Like just didn't have the
Dr Laura (27:05)
Mm.
Fallon Cook (27:07)
probably 11 hour sleep need I wanted him to have, which is kind of unrealistic for a child who's entering their teen years. So I had to adjust my expectations a little bit there. Um, but it is, yeah, it's worth doing it. And I love that you're talking about the, yeah, the kind of arbitrary nature of how our societies do kind of, you know, I think for babies, it's always like, Oh, they've got to go to bed at seven. Like who says that's, that's wild. And a lot of cultures, bedtimes are 10 or 11 PM for babies even. So yeah.
Dr Laura (27:14)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (27:35)
You're the parent, you can make the call to help with society and what they think. You're in the driver's Yeah. ⁓
Dr Laura (27:37)
Hmm. Until they start school. And then suddenly we actually do have to, we can't say to hell with.
Fallon Cook (27:49)
Yeah, school changes everything, that's for sure. Well, we've done five questions. We've got five to go. I don't even know whose turn it is to read one out, but shall I read out Nicole's question?
Dr Laura (27:55)
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (28:01)
Alright, so Nicole has an 11 and a half month old with a 12 hour sleep need. They're having 10 and a half hours overnight and two 45 minute naps in the day. Since dropping the post nap breast feeds, he seemed crankier after his naps and sometimes doses during feeds later on. Nicole wonders if his total sleep need may be higher than she'd worked out as perhaps he was dosing during the post nap feeds and she hadn't realized.
So she's wondering, should she add more sleep to his naps? She also adds, I feel hesitant to do this because he's starting to take longer to fall asleep for his naps, over 10 minutes, sometimes 15 to 30 minutes. And it's almost seemed like he was preparing to move to one nap. And she says his night sleep has been largely unaffected. Hmm, what do you reckon?
Dr Laura (28:51)
⁓
Gosh, all of these questions are so good today and so ⁓ tricky. Now, 11 and a half months. So getting to the point where, he may well drop down to one nap soon, but if we think about when that typically happens, there's that wide range of normal. So could be anywhere between...
Fallon Cook (28:57)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (29:17)
12 months and often 16 or 17 months of age that babies drop down to one nap. So I like that Nicole had noted that he was starting to take longer to fall asleep for his naps as being one of the signs that ⁓ he may be ready to move to one nap. But it would be very early to be doing that. And not outside the realms of possibility, but the fact that he seems a bit cranky.
I think this is going to be a case, perhaps we need to call this this episode experimenting, Fallon. I wonder if we let me think about this. she's wondering if actually he was sleeping a bit longer. So I wonder, does that mean that his sleep cycle length might be a little bit longer than 45 minutes if he was probably not?
Fallon Cook (29:54)
Yeah
Dr Laura (30:17)
How much more would she extend the nap to? If we were to keep on two naps, yeah, you wouldn't.
Fallon Cook (30:22)
Hmm. See, I just wouldn't. My initial thinking is
don't make the naps longer when he's showing signs that he could be warming up to actually dropping day sleep. I would, yeah, I would be thinking if he's really cranky, like you're just like, he's clearly tired, he's cranky every day, all day. Like it's just really hanging around this crankiness. I would say add a little bit of extra sleep to the night, like maybe 30 minutes longer at night.
Dr Laura (30:32)
it's taking up to half an hour. Yeah, what would you do? Move?
Mmm,
we've bed time earlier.
Fallon Cook (30:49)
which might then just mean
that the naps get pushed later even more so. So it might not be helpful, but you could, I mean, even if it's just 15 minutes more to the night, excuse me, you might find that his mood's a little bit happier and he can get through the day. Okay. I just feel reluctant to make a nap longer when he's already, I think if you make the nap longer, you won't fit that second nap in. He'll just be like, no, I'm going through to bedtime.
Dr Laura (31:06)
Mmm
No, because we'd, yes,
and how much longer would you make it if, because if he's waking up himself after 45 minutes, which I'm guessing he is, then if we were to make the nap longer, it would need to be an hour and a half. Yeah, it would be because we'd want him to have two sleep cycles, and which case, yeah, it's going to be impossible to fit that second nap in. So yeah, I think you're on the money there, Fallon. So Nicole, I would be...
Fallon Cook (31:16)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (31:38)
keeping the two naps at 45 minutes and then moving, either moving bedtime earlier or wake up later and by either 15 minutes or half an hour and see if that improves things. And look, it may be it does and in another month, the signs begin again and then you move him to the one nap and then that one nap will be roughly an hour and a half.
Fallon Cook (32:06)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (32:08)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably the way to go.
Fallon Cook (32:10)
Yeah. I think we just really clearly
demonstrated how complicated some of these sleep problems can be and how it takes some unpacking. Doesn't it? Like you can have two practitioners with, you know, heap of experience, but yeah, you still got to really think it through. So yeah, if you're a parent who's struggling with these things, it's like very understandable. Cause even we sometimes go, Hmm, what would we do with this one? ⁓ let's see how you go, Nicole. If it's really challenging, you know, we're here to support you. Cause I've been another question or.
Dr Laura (32:17)
Yeah, it does!
Yes.
Fallon Cook (32:40)
you know, have a coaching call if you're feeling really lost. but yeah, look, sometimes as they approach dropping an app, it's just challenging. Like it is just harder for a little while and then they make that transition and it, does get easier. So fingers crossed. That's the case for Nicole.
Dr Laura (32:42)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Okay, so Sharon has written in and Sharon has a 10 week old as well as a toddler and is using the quick fade approach. I wonder if that's actually quick tapered approach if she's using the little baby, the little baby program. So Sharon describes a real predicament Fallon. She says that her 10 week old has started to roll. So Sharon has had to unswaddle him, which is the right choice to make.
Fallon Cook (33:08)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah,
good choice. ⁓
Dr Laura (33:26)
During the day nap Sharon says she often cannot settle him in the cot as he keeps startling and waking himself up with his hands even if she gets him to sleep in her arms and transfers him. She ends up giving him naps in the carrier which she describes as exhausting with a toddler in tow. Night sleep has also worsened.
Sharon asks for tips on cot settling a young baby with arms out for both naps and overnight. What do you think?
Fallon Cook (33:58)
it is so hard when you've got a little baby and a toddler. I remember those days. Very blurry memories of those days because it is so hard. Yeah, Sharon, it's so hard when they're physically really capable, really young. So you absolutely needed to unsaddle him, even though he still has that startle reflex that can wake up little babies. You know, we want to put his safety first. So you've absolutely done the right thing.
Dr Laura (34:02)
Mm. Mm. Yes.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (34:27)
And I think this is one of those points where it's actually really similar to the question we had earlier, where you sort of have to decide, do I want to tackle this now? Do I go all in or do we just wait a little bit and take the easy road and then address this later on? ⁓ So there's a case to be made for going, you know what? I mean, she describes as being absolutely exhausted doing naps in the carrier. And I don't blame it. I hated doing naps in the carrier. was just, it wasn't for me. It can feel really just like you're just not getting enough.
Dr Laura (34:38)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (34:57)
time to yourself and sometimes it's not comforting to constantly have your baby on you and that's perfectly valid and fine. If you're finding that too hard you could just go all in with the cot settling. ⁓ I would be, I mean there's things that you could do. You could ⁓ put your hand over his hand, so put his hands on his chest and you rest a hand on him to help stop that startle from happening. ⁓ But you've got a toddler so you might not be able to do that. You might need to go and tend to their needs as well. ⁓
Dr Laura (34:58)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (35:25)
Look, I think it's a case of if you're going to go in with cot settling, build those supports in around you. might be a few tricky days where you're persisting with the cot settling, knowing that once he adapts to it and gets used to it, even if he does startle, he'll put himself back to sleep again. ⁓ That could be worth it so that you've got more time free for your toddler or for yourself. ⁓ Or if you think, gosh, that sounds way too challenging. I can't do that right now.
Dr Laura (35:40)
Mmm. Mmm. ⁓
Fallon Cook (35:51)
You can absolutely keep going with the carrier naps or do some pram naps or car naps. Whatever's going to make it easier. In, I mean, in another couple of weeks, you're going to see a big change in your baby's circadian rhythm. They're going to build up sleep pressure, you know, the longer they're awake. Over the next month or so things should start to get easier and then you might feel a bit better able to work on cot settling.
Dr Laura (35:57)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (36:15)
So it's probably not the clearest answer, but I think it's not, it's just simply not that straightforward with really little babies. ⁓ It can be really tough in this phase, but over the next month, generally things do start to come together. So I hate to say, you know, hang in there, hang in there. it is, yeah, it is just really bloody hard. ⁓ But what do you think, Laura? What would your advice be?
Dr Laura (36:21)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Yes!
It is. It's so hard.
The only thing that I would add, Fallon, is Sharon, if you do decide to go all in and use that quick tapered approach to do cot settling during the naps and overnight would be to think about how to keep your toddler entertained whilst you are temporarily unavailable to them.
Fallon Cook (36:59)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:04)
⁓ And I don't know the age of your toddler, Sharon, but you know, if they're closer to three than to two, I'd be thinking about using some kind of reward ⁓ chart so that, ⁓ you know, explaining to your toddler that you're going to be in the room with the baby and they get a sticker if they sit quietly and ⁓
play a game or watch their favorite episode of their favorite show. You know, use that screen time as a tool to occupy your toddler whilst you are in with your little one. And then they might get a sticker and then some nice special play time with just you and them where you do whatever they are interested in. So totally child directed play whilst your little baby is having a nap.
So that's one thing to think about. Another thing is do you have friends or family that could come over to keep your toddler entertained whilst you were doing the cot settles? And what other things could we think about? So reward systems, using your screen time as a tool. ⁓
thinking about ⁓ any particular activities that your toddler might really enjoy doing that they can do whilst they're not in your sight. So it might not be colouring with marker pens because you don't want your walls covered in markers, but maybe it's magnetic tiles or something that they can't do too much harm with. ⁓ Or just thinking about having friends or family over to look after them whilst you're in with your baby and know that it's just for a short period of time. And this is just if you go all in with the cot settling.
Fallon Cook (38:38)
you
Hmm.
Dr Laura (38:53)
decide that now isn't the time, that's also a valid choice to make.
Fallon Cook (38:53)
Yeah.
Yeah,
100%. Another thing a lot of parents do and they say, you know, for some it really helps is getting a baby doll for your toddler. So they're settling their baby doll while you're settling your baby. And you can make a bit of a game of it like, your baby's quite already. My baby is still cranky. You know, like just
Dr Laura (39:07)
Mmm.
Hahaha
Fallon Cook (39:17)
making them sort of part of that settling process obviously depends on the baby. If the baby is a real wide-eyed fomo baby then having their sibling anywhere near the cot during settling might not be helpful. But it's something to think about in case yeah you've got a toddler who wants to be involved.
Dr Laura (39:28)
Yes.
Yes, yeah. Okay.
Fallon Cook (39:36)
Awesome. All right, well
now let's move on to Elizabeth who wrote in with an update on her nine month old who was waking early for the day from 4.30am. Elizabeth says that now they've moved bedtime to 8pm. It's resulted in much improved mornings where they're little ones waking at 6 or 7am. So that is terrific. Well done Elizabeth. You're probably feeling a lot more human these days.
Dr Laura (40:00)
Yes, so good. Yeah, well done.
Fallon Cook (40:05)
She says, however, she started at daycare where she only takes two 30 minute naps, needing a third in the car to get her through until bedtime. So Elizabeth is keen on advice for supporting better naps at daycare.
Dr Laura (40:19)
Okay, well we do know that sleep can go bit wobbly when a baby or toddler starts at daycare. So it is to be expected. Some adjust really easily, but the majority have a little bit of a wobble for the first few weeks. And as long as the nighttime sleep isn't falling over, Elizabeth, there's no need to change.
Fallon Cook (40:32)
Hmm
Dr Laura (40:47)
anything in this transition period. You know, if you're finding that on the day she's at daycare, she has that third nap, ⁓ but sleeps well, still forced to sleep easily and sleeps through the night, then carry on doing it. However, at nine months old, I suspect that wouldn't, that it might actually be affecting the night. So I would be thinking about rather than ⁓ giving your baby a full
Fallon Cook (41:09)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (41:17)
30 minute nap in the car on the way home, I would be just giving them a power nap. So 15 or 20 minutes instead. So it's not an entire sleep cycle. Just takes the edge off the sleep pressure to get them through into a bedtime. And then they're more likely to be able to sleep well at night. And then with a little bit of practice.
their circadian rhythm will soon catch on to the fact that even when they're sleeping somewhere different at daycare than at home, the circadian rhythm will allow them to do the full longer nap at daycare. So really thinking about it being two naps still at daycare and then a little power nap if it's only been two short naps at daycare and potentially even moving bedtime a little bit earlier on those nights.
initially and then after a week or two then that power nap will probably fall away on the daycare days as they begin to be more comfortable sleeping there and have longer naps at daycare ⁓ and then you'll be back to just the two nap rhythm normal bedtime on daycare days and on daycare days. Did you have anything to add Fallon?
Fallon Cook (42:21)
Hmm.
Yeah,
only that it's so common that at first they take these really short naps at childcare and usually they will start to have decent naps. I would just say that if it doesn't happen and if those short naps persist, you might find that you're better off moving to two short naps on the home days as well. ⁓
Dr Laura (42:48)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (42:48)
lengthening
the night instead so that there's some consistency there. But I wouldn't rush into that. I would see how things go across the next few weeks and hopefully they settle in really well. And yeah, they'll be on track and all good without that little third nap in the car.
Dr Laura (42:57)
Mm.
Yeah. Okay,
so Angela has written in and she has a two year, four month old toddler who sleeps from 8.15 at night until 6.15 in the morning and has an hour and a half nap. On some days he's beginning to wake earlier for the day or taking longer to fall asleep. So Angela asks whether to wait for consistent early mornings before trimming the nap further. Her toddler
also now only naps on the go not in the cot and Angela wonders if that's typical at this age.
Fallon Cook (43:44)
I love this. These are really are great questions today. They're so good. So, so good. I think Angela's noticing that wobbly nurse starts to happen when they're getting close to dropping a nap. So those signs being sometimes they're taking longer to fall asleep. Sometimes they're waking earlier and now they're only really napping on the go. So
Dr Laura (43:46)
They are, they're really great.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (44:06)
They're
only wanting to nap if there's like movement and yeah, like that's really common to see. look, you could wait longer and kind of see how they go, but I would say you're seeing those warning signs that the daily rhythms are getting a bit wobbly. I'd probably be inclined to cut the day nap in half down to just a 45 minute nap at this point. ⁓ you don't need to completely drop the nap.
Dr Laura (44:10)
Yes.
Mmm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (44:33)
definitely trim
it down to one sleep cycle first and then often they keep that nap for a little longer, it might be a few months if you're lucky. And then you'll notice the same wobbliness again and that'll be a sign that they're getting ready to completely drop the day nap. So look, it's your call and whether you do it now or wait a bit longer, but I would imagine over time that wobbliness will probably become, you know, bigger. It's like when you're riding your bike and you're a kid and it starts to wobble and it just gets worse and worse and then crash.
Dr Laura (44:40)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (45:03)
I feel like that's what it's like for these toddlers when they show these signs,
they tend to just amplify. ⁓ But you know, you can absolutely see how you go, but I would just cut that nap down to the one sleep cycle. And that kind of goes for any baby or toddler that's getting ready to drop a nap. Often, rather than just dropping a nap, it might be that you just drop it down to one sleep cycle and it just keeps them in that rhythm a bit longer. Then when the signs come back, you know, they drop it.
Dr Laura (45:25)
Mm-hmm. I need to
it. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (45:29)
Yeah,
yep. And it's fun that they're having naps on the go. Often at this age it's really handy because you've got lots of things you want to go out and do and that they also want to do. doing that nap on the go is fine.
Dr Laura (45:40)
Yeah, and if it's only 45 minutes, then that's even better because you're not having to sit in the car whilst they finish their nap. ⁓ And the good news is Angela, then you'll be able to add 45 minutes to the overnight sleep as long as their sleep needs staying the same. So you'll be able.
Fallon Cook (45:44)
⁓ Yeah, true.
Mmm.
And that's always the big question, isn't it? Sometimes they drop
the day sleep down because they're ready. They're because they've got a lower sleep need and other times they still have the same sleep requirement. So you can just add it to the night and we never know which way they're to go. So you've just got to give it a whirl. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. And that's just, that's just how it is. And often so often in sleep, that is the answer. Like, ⁓
Dr Laura (46:09)
yeah no we have to experiment we're back to the experimenting yeah
Fallon Cook (46:23)
You there's a you're going to find a lot of people online who will give you these really firm, like it has to be done this way. Uh, big red flag because there's always going to be a bit of like assessing the child, the situation, the parents, there's so many factors that drive these things. Um, and lucky last, we have a question from Bella. So Bella has a six month old who wakes upwards of five times between 7 PM and 10 PM.
Dr Laura (46:29)
Mm. Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (46:51)
and then every two hours overnight. Oh, that's a shocker. You poor thing, Bella says he naps for 90 minutes total each day. They've concluded that his bedtime is too early and his wake windows need to be stretched out longer. However, they're worried if depriving their baby of sleep or keeping them awake for longer, which would be sort of four or four and a half hours at a time, they're wondering if that can cause harm or if the worst consequence is just temporary grumpiness. Another absolutely brilliant question.
Dr Laura (46:56)
Yeah.
Yeah,
is such a good question, Bella. Look, no, it's not go having those slightly longer wake windows is not going to cause harm. ⁓ We know that sleep deprivation, which is not having as much sleep as you need chronically is harmful for humans. But when we're looking at a
snapshot of time with a little baby, so Bella you've got a six month old, you are offering your six month old all the sleep that they need and they're not able to maintain their sleep. So you're not, they're not taking it. Yeah, don't want it. you, exactly, you are not depriving your child of sleep. So put that out of your mind.
Fallon Cook (48:00)
Mm, they're actually not taking it overnight. They're like, no, don't want it. Even though it's on offer.
Dr Laura (48:13)
you are giving your little ones so much sleep opportunity overnight that they can't take it. They are waking so many times overnight. It may, and I'm just going to do a little back trap there because it may not be that they can't take it. It may be because the way that they are falling asleep is hands on. And then every sleep cycle, they are waking up to say, ⁓ where have you gone? My sleep associations are no longer here.
Fallon Cook (48:20)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (48:40)
However, the fact that it's five times in that first stretch of the night when we expect that to be where the deep sleep happens is telling me sleep pressure is probably not quite high enough for your little one to be able to get that run of deep sleep before they wake. So ordinarily we would see at least two or three hours before babies start to wake if their sleep pressure is high enough at the start of the night.
Fallon Cook (48:44)
Exactly.
Hmm
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's even if they are given a lot of support to fall asleep, maybe they're completely fed and rocked to sleep. If sleep pressure is where it needs to be, they'll still do, yeah, two, three, four hours of solid deep sleep. And then they start to wake up going, where did you go? What happened? ⁓ the fact that this baby's not even getting that long stretch of deep settled sleep.
Dr Laura (49:19)
Yeah.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (49:28)
means the absolute best thing Bella can do for her baby is to start stretching out the day's sleep so that night's sleep improves so they can get that long stretch of restorative sleep. So I think you're absolutely on the right track Bella, no need to be worried your baby's showing multiple signs that they really need to push more of their sleep into the night time, dial back the day's sleep and you'll just you should notice some really big
Dr Laura (49:39)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (49:53)
improvements that will be so beneficial for your baby and you as well because I don't know how you're coping with that many nightwakes that's really extreme and very challenging.
Dr Laura (49:58)
Yes. ⁓
Yeah.
So a consequence of working on that daily rhythm will be temporary grumpiness, Bella, like you've identified. So what we are doing is kind of drawing a line in the sand and saying, okay, this current daily rhythm that we're using isn't working for your baby. So we're going to use a new daily rhythm, which will involve your little one being awake for longer stretches during the day. And that's going to initially be on the back of poor night's sleep.
Fallon Cook (50:10)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (50:32)
So they will be a bit cranky. ⁓ But then what will happen is they'll start to do longer stretches overnight, which means that they will cope better during the day with those longer wake windows. So it's only very temporary that this grumpiness will last for once your little one is doing really good night's sleep and having those lovely long stretches of sleep, they'll cope better during the day. And at that point you can say, do you know what? I'm gonna add a bit more sleep.
Yeah, as we always say, once we have our babies and toddlers sleeping really well, we add a bit more sleep to the daily rhythm just to see if they can take it. And so we might add an extra 30 minutes during the day or overnight. ⁓ And you see, okay, now is your baby able to take that extra sleep if they can? Brilliant. You can try adding a bit more.
Fallon Cook (51:10)
Mm.
Dr Laura (51:20)
But as soon as they start to not be able to maintain their sleep overnight, again, they start to have these overnight wakes or they start waking early for the day or it starts to take them too long to fall asleep. Then we go, ⁓ right, we just shave it back to the, yeah, that's right. So yeah, hang in there, Bella. I think you and your partner have made the right conclusion. And now, yeah, I hope that this little pep talk.
Fallon Cook (51:34)
Go back to the schedule that worked.
Dr Laura (51:47)
gives you the courage and the confidence to put the schedule into place.
Fallon Cook (51:52)
Yeah. And look, being caught in that cycle of, know, you have a terrible night with your baby and then they wake up and of course they want to nap all day because they're so tired from a terrible night and then they nap too much and then the next night's terrible. And like, it's just like this horrible cycle that goes on and on. It can feel so challenging at that point of exhaustion to be trying to make these big changes that are really hard. So surround yourself with support. And I think this is one of the tougher things that parents have to navigate.
Dr Laura (52:14)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (52:22)
⁓ during infancy, if you are really struggling with that, or you just don't have confidence in the daily rhythm that you're trying to implement. Again, it's a really good type of scenario for a coaching call so that we can look at the pattern in that diary and really establish, you know, how do we best structure the day and the night so that we can just hit the ground running, get this circadian rhythm, sort of upheaval, all sorted and evened out. And then often that just opens the doorway for any changes you need to make to settling.
Dr Laura (52:42)
you
Mm.
Fallon Cook (52:52)
⁓ Once you've really nailed that daily rhythm and you've got that great sleep pressure overnight, working on independent settling becomes a whole lot easier if that's your goal, because of course it's not everybody's goal. Amazing. These were just the best questions. I think we couldn't have picked a better episode to just really focus in on a bunch of parent questions because they are absolutely fantastic. So thank you so much to the Sombelle members who submitted those questions.
Dr Laura (52:56)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (53:18)
If you would like to submit questions of your own, please do. It is for members only. So if you're not a member, consider joining up with Sombelle. You can benefit from a huge library of resources, videos, all of that amazing stuff we're pumped into Sombelle. But you can also submit questions to the podcast and you can also skip our waiting list for the clinic and come in for a coaching call ⁓ if you need it. Not everybody needs them. We've worked out, I think around about 10 % of people who joined Sombelle.
Dr Laura (53:43)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (53:48)
end up needing that high level of support. 90 % of parents find they don't need it, which is amazing. It tells us that the program is working. So yeah, do keep in mind that the program's there to help you. I'll pop a link in the show notes as well. If you'd like to buy us a coffee, we always love that. But yeah, have a great week everyone. And you'll hear from us again next week for our 100th episode. How exciting.
Dr Laura (53:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Woohoo!
Thanks everyone. Bye bye.
