Fallon Cook (00:02)
Welcome to episode 100 of Brand New Little People, the podcast that's helped over 193,000 sleepy parents navigate the wild world of baby and toddler sleep. For 100 episodes, we've been your go-to for evidence-based, no guilt sleep support. And guess what? We're still the highest ranked infant sleep podcast in the parenting charts. It's amazing.
Dr Laura (00:28)
Mm.
Fallon Cook (00:28)
Together we've answered over
600 parent questions. We've cheered on your victories and busted myths from Australia to Finland, the USA to Japan, because yes, sleep struggles are truly universal. Your favorite episodes were the ones where we focused on reducing night wakings. No surprises there.
on cot settling, managing low sleep needs babies and toddlers, tricky toddler behaviors, and of course, our iconic episode on myth busting the four months sleep regression. But today we're mixing it up a little bit. For our 100th episode, we're pulling back the curtain just a little on who we really are with some fun facts, hypotheticals, and we'll address some recent parent questions too.
So let's celebrate how far we've come and how much more there is to learn.
Laura, congratulations, 100 episodes. I cannot believe it.
Dr Laura (01:26)
No, I can't either. Congratulations to you too. Oh my goodness. 100. That's just, it just feels like an astonishing number of podcasts, but I still enjoy recording them. I enjoy them as much now as 100 ago.
Fallon Cook (01:39)
It does.
I enjoy recording them, not editing them so much. But one day, one day we'll have a producer, but for now it's me, the producer. But now it is fun. I remember still, ⁓ I think I sent you a WhatsApp message one day just going, but what if we did like a podcast, like just a 10 minute thing that we do, maybe once a week where we like just answer a few parent questions. And from there, the idea just grew.
Dr Laura (01:49)
No, yeah, I don't have to do that. So yes.
Fallon Cook (02:14)
and grew and now it's such a big production every week. Like I can't believe we do this every week. It's amazing.
Dr Laura (02:14)
Yes.
Yeah.
Now, and those numbers are amazing. Nearly 200,000 listeners. I mean, that's just, yeah, really amazing. Yeah, just so delighted. No, I remember when we had 11 listeners. We were so excited. Like, wow, there's 11 people.
Fallon Cook (02:27)
Isn't it? Yeah.
We didn't think anyone would really want to listen, did we?
Oh, that is so funny. It is such a cool format though. And I know myself as a parent, just being able to listen to something while you're going about all the mundane, you know, household tasks and parenting tasks. It really helps you get through the day. And I love that we've had so many messages from parents who say, oh, you've been the soundtrack in our household or, know, every day I go for a walk and I push the pram and I've got you girls talking, you know, while I'm walking along.
Dr Laura (02:47)
Yeah.
Yes!
Fallon Cook (03:11)
And I think, what an incredible privilege to be part of people's lives like that. Yeah, we don't take it for granted. That's for sure.
Dr Laura (03:16)
Yes, yeah, it is. No, and I
sometimes think back to well, often think back to when my children were really small. And there are certain people that came into my life just for that season. And I just look back with fondness that, you know, I think I've probably spoken about my rent a grand Libby on this many, many episodes ago.
Fallon Cook (03:31)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (03:43)
⁓ and you know, that was just a lady who used to volunteer and help moms out who didn't have any support nearby. And she was in my life for a season. ⁓ and it was wonderful. and it's great that we may be able to fill that role for some parents now just through this podcast.
Fallon Cook (03:54)
Yeah.
Yeah, it
really is. Yeah, and I imagine too, some of the people who might have tuned in for the first couple of episodes who had toddlers, they might be getting ready to send those toddlers off to school next year now. You know, like there's been a lot of growing happening ⁓ in a couple of years since we started it. ⁓ it is just, it is really, really cool. So let's dive into some.
Dr Laura (04:17)
Yes!
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (04:27)
some questions that I thought would be a bit of fun to answer before we dive into some of the meatier questions from parents. I want to know Laura, what's one thing about you that would surprise our listeners?
Dr Laura (04:28)
Mmm.
you know what? When I was glancing down these questions a moment ago, I just completely skipped past number one and now I'm going completely blank. Something that would surprise our listeners ⁓ about me would be that I'm a pretty terrible sleeper myself and I do not take
Fallon Cook (04:47)
Hahaha!
You
I wondered if you were going to
say this. Confessions of a sleep practitioner.
Dr Laura (05:08)
Yeah, good question. I am
really, really naughty with my own sleep. ⁓ And I, I'm so bad at just getting into bed and scrolling. It's like often that only point of the day I have to myself. And I displace my sleep something crazy. And then I'm not very good at having my set wake up time. So when I
Fallon Cook (05:23)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (05:31)
telling parents that it's really important that you keep that set wake up time. It's do what I say and don't do what I do. ⁓ But you know, that's, I don't have a sleep disorder, but I do. ⁓ I'm not very good with being disciplined with my own sleep. So yeah, sorry about that listeners. What about you, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (05:49)
Well, at least if it spins out of control,
you know how to get it back on track again. Mine's a bit of a sleep related one too, because I sometimes, actually a lot of the time.
Dr Laura (05:55)
I do! Yeah, what about you Fallon? What's one thing that would surprise our listeners about you?
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (06:08)
I let my
kids get up in the middle of the night to watch the F1 races with me, even though it's not great for their sleep. And the race is usually extremely late on a Sunday night, right before the school week. ⁓ they just love it so much. Yeah. Yeah. It's so exciting. Like middle of the night. It's crazy. I can't believe, like, I just cannot believe. Like my husband even was like, who are you? Like, what are you, what are you doing? This is not you.
Dr Laura (06:22)
and exciting and loud, stimulating.
Fallon Cook (06:36)
car racing? Like, are you kidding me? But I love it now. One of my kids got into F1 and started talking about it a lot. And then I just completely fell in love with it, which is, still just so weird to me. It's just so weird to me, but I'm a massive Oscar Piastri fan. He's incredible. And so yes, Sunday night we were up at stupid o'clock and then the race was delayed. And then my kids were furious getting ready for school. And I just thought I really should know better.
Dr Laura (06:50)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (07:06)
That's my confession.
Dr Laura (07:07)
But
it's something nice that you're doing with your children. And they are a bit older, so their sleep's a little bit more resilient than all the little toddlers that we're working with.
Fallon Cook (07:12)
Yeah.
True, that's true. Yeah.
And I think it's about sometimes you've got to make the good memories, you know, it might not be perfect sleep, but you've got to make those memories. anyway, that's my story. That's what I'm sticking to.
Dr Laura (07:24)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Well, let's do our next question. I'm curious to know if you weren't a sleep practitioner Fallon what other job do you think you'd be doing?
Fallon Cook (07:39)
⁓ I often really wish that I was just working outside more and in nature more. So I would, I would, I have this really weird fascination with rocks. I would have loved to have been a geologist or maybe an environmental scientist or an archaeologist or something like that, where I could just be outside all day in nature, ⁓ not interacting with anybody.
Dr Laura (07:45)
Hmm ⁓
Fallon Cook (08:05)
My favorite job, just me wandering
Dr Laura (08:06)
I had dream.
Fallon Cook (08:07)
around the bush. Yeah, I'd collect some data and I'd keep a really tidy spreadsheet with that data and I'd be very happy. What about you, Laura?
Dr Laura (08:15)
Were you the kind of
child that collected rocks and have them by your bedside when you were little?
Fallon Cook (08:20)
Yes. Yes,
I did rocks, feathers. Now I'm thinking, you know, I'm sounding a lot like my daughter. think she might've gotten it from me, but I used to spend hours walking around in the bush as a kid on my own. Like, and I was telling my kids the other day, my best friend lived about maybe 17 or 18 kilometers away. And I used to ride my bike to her house and spend the day there and then ride home that evening on my own when I was about 11. So yes, I was always out in nature.
Dr Laura (08:28)
Yes.
my goodness. Yeah, that's nuts, isn't it?
Fallon Cook (08:50)
It is a bit wild, but yeah, what about you? What would you be doing?
Dr Laura (08:50)
Yeah. I think that I would probably still love to work with people ⁓ and I wouldn't be that, be, no, I'd probably be a bit bored with rocks. I'd end up being like Tom Hanks ⁓ in that castaway movie where he had the,
Fallon Cook (09:01)
No surprises there.
Yeah
Dr Laura (09:13)
ball that he put a face on.
Fallon Cook (09:14)
Well said!
Dr Laura (09:15)
Yeah, that's right. I'd need a Wilson rock. So.
Fallon Cook (09:19)
You, I reckon you
would have been a great politician because whenever I'm with you or near your house, you just know everyone, you talk to everyone. Like there's not a person you don't know. You are just so talkative, whereas I'll just stand there, mute.
Dr Laura (09:34)
Yeah, my children really dislike going down the street with me because they're just like, oh my God, mum's talking again, mum's seeing someone else that she knows. So I think that if I was to do another job, I probably would still be in a kind of adjacent style job. I reckon I'd be a counsellor or maybe I would have done my clinical psychology training. I think I probably would still like to help people and still like to surround myself with people.
Fallon Cook (09:37)
Hahaha
Hehehehehe
Mmm.
Dr Laura (10:04)
and ⁓ yeah, do a bit of problem solving. Other people's problems are always a little bit ⁓ easier to sort out than your own as well.
Fallon Cook (10:13)
Well, I'm going to stick
to the rocks. ⁓ so what would you say has been your favorite or maybe most unexpected moment from these 100 episodes? Is there something that jumps out at you?
Dr Laura (10:16)
Fair enough.
Yes, I have been astounded by the wonderful feedback we get from families and the lovely emails we receive, ⁓ just saying how much they've enjoyed the course and the program and how much ⁓ they really appreciate us answering their questions in the podcast. And that there was actually one of our listeners who sent us an email one day calling us the...
Fallon Cook (10:56)
⁓ yeah
Dr Laura (10:58)
the dear Dr. Sombelle goddesses. And you ended up, you made the mug of it. And I came home from a weekend away, I think. Yeah, you'd got this mug delivered and you said, there's something that I've sent you something, you're going to love it. And because I was away, I didn't get it for a few days. my goodness, I laughed when I got this mug.
Fallon Cook (11:03)
the mug.
like that's excellent!
Hehehehehe
I love it. That was
Jess. I looked it up. So Jess, if you're listening, thank you so much. The email was something like, hello, Dr. Sombelle Goddesses. And then I can't remember what the rest of it was about, but it just, I just loved it so much. And I thought, yeah, that's a good mug. And I completely forgot to even bring these on the podcast. So what a good opportunity. And thank you, Jess. Yeah, that really made our day. It's very funny.
Dr Laura (11:28)
Yeah, we'll put them up to the screen.
Yeah, I think
I actually, because I use mine, my mug every day and I think I actually sit sometimes with clients having a sip of tea from this mug and they're probably thinking I'm complete vain lunatic. ⁓
Fallon Cook (11:53)
Mm-hmm
I just took a sip of water and almost spattered out. that is so funny. That's like when I was, I had my daughter's pen, which is bright pink and has this big fluffy thing hanging off the end of it. And I was talking to a client and it was just the only pen within reach. And I didn't even think about it. I grabbed it and I was like twirling it around near my face. And then suddenly looked at the camera and was like, ⁓ my God, I looked deranged and quickly put it back down again. ⁓ gosh. It's funny.
Dr Laura (12:31)
Oh dear, so funny. What about
you Fallon? What's been your favourite or most unexpected moment from recording 100 episodes?
Fallon Cook (12:41)
one of the things I love is that it's my daughter's little voice that you can hear during the acknowledgement of country at the start of every episode. And even already her voice has changed so much that every time I go to edit the podcast together, I just love hearing her cute little voice. And I think it will be really nice to listen back on when she's much, much older. ⁓
Dr Laura (12:56)
Yeah.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (13:02)
Yeah. So I love that. think that's kind of special. And it's my husband who does the other voiceover stuff too at the start and the end. It's very much a family production.
Dr Laura (13:09)
Yes,
it is. My two are queuing up now. They're saying, how come it's always Fallon's family who get to do these things? Yeah.
Fallon Cook (13:17)
⁓ if they want a job, how do they feel about like
sound engineering or I'll find a job for them. ⁓ funny.
Dr Laura (13:23)
⁓ Yeah. All right.
Let's move on to another question. And this is kind of back into the sleep space. So Fallon, what is one myth about sleep that makes you want to scream into a pillow?
Fallon Cook (13:40)
⁓
it's hard to choose only one, but I think the one that's currently doing my head in is the whole sleep associations aren't real or just sleep associations don't impact sleep. It's just wild to me that anybody is out there saying that. ⁓ It's like saying, like the sun doesn't rise in the East.
Dr Laura (13:45)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (14:04)
Like it just does. ⁓ so yeah, that one, still just think, my God, why are people saying that to parents? It's so unhelpful and inaccurate. What do you reckon Laura? Do you have a most hated bit of advice?
Dr Laura (14:05)
Yeah.
Yeah. ⁓
Sleeper gets sleep. Hate it. Hate it. Absolutely. In the bin. It just leads to so much angst and so many parents sitting in dark rooms rocking babies and toddlers for hours and hours ⁓ and making parents feel like they're doing something wrong. So yeah, I would scream into a pillow. ⁓
Fallon Cook (14:17)
yeah. Put it in the bin.
Dr Laura (14:41)
actually if I did scream into a pillow every time I heard that I wouldn't have a voice. It's just so infuriating. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (14:41)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. It really is.
And if you could have anyone on the podcast, like it could be a real person, an imaginary person, a famous person, who would you want it to be? It's a hard question, isn't it?
Dr Laura (15:02)
You know, I have, I did have,
it is a hard question. I did have someone in mind, but I'm just going to change it now to somebody else. And it's simply, this is me being blowing in the winds of what's happening at the moment. ⁓ I would love to have Oasis, the band on the podcast. Yes. So, well.
Fallon Cook (15:10)
You
Really? That's surprising. Are you a fan
of music?
Dr Laura (15:25)
I am and Oasis is just doing a reunion tour at the moment in the UK and a lot of my friends in the UK are going to see them. so ⁓
Fallon Cook (15:34)
⁓ and they're coming to Australia.
I think that tour is coming out here. You have to go. Yeah.
Dr Laura (15:38)
is it? Well, I should try. Yes,
I will try. And maybe the tickets won't be as popular over here as they are in England. So it might be like when I went to see Robbie Williams and managed to get front row seats earlier on this year. Yeah, so I just, that's the soundtrack of me doing my psychology degree. Oasis was in the charts in the UK when I was doing my degree over there. And I just know I can just sing those songs.
Fallon Cook (15:45)
I don't know.
⁓ yeah.
Dr Laura (16:08)
just yeah I love them. So that's who I would have on the podcast, nothing to do with sleep or parenting. What about you Fallon? Yeah!
Fallon Cook (16:08)
Hahaha!
I'd love to hear their thoughts on parenting. ⁓ Well,
since Harry Styles probably doesn't have a lot to offer us about parenting or sleep, I at the moment am loving reading a lot of the books by Liane Moriarty. I just think she has such an awesome way of kind of unpacking the human experience and kind of showing you all those multifaceted layers that people ⁓
Dr Laura (16:33)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (16:44)
build up over the years that leads them to be who they are. And the way she describes parenting as well is just so fascinating the way she can capture like that incredible love that we all have for our children, but then the absolute frustration that we also have at times with our kids. Like I just, people who are so clever with words like that, yeah, it just totally amazes me. I would love to meet her. ⁓
Dr Laura (16:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes,
she could give us some tips for writing our Sombelle book.
Fallon Cook (17:15)
Yeah, yeah, we need a Sombelle book. Yeah, that's
so funny. Well, I don't know how we'll go with Oasis, but you know, I could send them an email and be like, since you're coming to Australia, Laura loves you. Come on out podcast. You'll love it. Yeah.
Dr Laura (17:24)
No. Yeah, maybe less.
about baby sleep. I don't even know if they
have kids. Maybe they do. It would be interesting, wouldn't it? Who knows where that podcast episode would go. All right. Our next question is if you could magically solve one parenting struggle besides sleep. Fallon, what would it be?
Fallon Cook (17:39)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very nice.
Shoelaces, definitely shoelaces. ⁓ my God. I think that I'm an all right parent until I have to teach somebody how to tie shoelaces. It is torture. I don't understand it, but there is some kind of like some kind of monster inside me. When I have to explain, not like that. No, turn it around. You put that bit through. No, no, it exceeds my capacity for patience. So if they could just be born.
knowing how to do shoelaces. Oh, I'd be very happy.
Dr Laura (18:28)
Yeah, you know what, we should probably ask Kellie, one of our new sleep practitioners who's an OT, whether there's a particular way, particular language that needs to be used. And maybe you could, it's probably a bit late now for all of your children. They probably have just learned not to come. They've mastered it, or they just don't come to you. ⁓ There's probably this kind of whispering at the door before school.
Fallon Cook (18:38)
Mmm.
Yeah, they finally mastered it. Don't ask mum. it's so hard.
Dr Laura (18:54)
with whoever can't tie their shoelaces, the other one doing it for them. Quick, quick! Before mum sees!
Fallon Cook (18:59)
⁓
Yeah, it's just it's too much for me can't hack it. What about you? What would you do?
Dr Laura (19:10)
⁓ I, my God, the parenting struggle that causes me to just completely go offline is meal time and which meals each child likes.
Fallon Cook (19:25)
Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah, we could throw lunchboxes in there too, couldn't we? Lunchboxes. So hard. Like, no, I don't like that. Why did you pack me this? It's horrible. I threw it in the bin and I sold it to so-and-so for $3. That's what I get all the time. You what? You're profiting from your lunchbox? Like, I don't know if I should be proud of your entrepreneurial spirit. Horrified.
Dr Laura (19:27)
my god. If I could just wave a magic wand... ⁓
so hard.
Yeah, that sounds pretty entrepreneurial.
⁓ yeah, maybe we have a position for a business manager. We can have them on board. Yes, that's, yeah, it is such a headache, ⁓ knowing what they like one week to the next and what one child likes, the other one doesn't, and then they switch. Yes, so that would be a parenting struggle that I would love to magically solve.
Fallon Cook (20:15)
Hmm.
⁓ wouldn't it be so good? Wave that magic wand and away it goes. I'm going to skip ahead to this next one. If there was an Olympic event for parenting skills, what would you dominate at? What's something you're really good at?
Dr Laura (20:19)
Mealtimes, lunches. Yeah.
⁓ what am I good at? When they were small, I was really good at making up songs about anything. So just to try and help with transitions. ⁓
Fallon Cook (20:39)
Cute.
Right. So we're going to do a
Sombelle soundtrack then and it will be you singing away.
Dr Laura (20:46)
Yeah.
It was just one of the only ways that I could get my kids on board sometimes with moving from one task to the next, ⁓ or leaving the playground or going upstairs to the shower or whatever it was. I used to just have this uncanny skill. can still talk and make lots of things rhyme. Yeah, not... So that's definitely an Olympic event that I would dominate at. What about you, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (20:54)
Hmm.
Yeah, come on then, I'll count you in.
that's so good. Well, I remember reaching a point with my third kid where I had to install a rear-facing car seat and obviously I'd had to do it so many times and it's such a headache. But I remember walking inside and saying to my husband, I did it. I installed the car seat and I didn't even swear once. I was very proud of that. Like I just got so good at installing those things. I was just an absolute pro and I really feel like if that was a sport.
Dr Laura (21:40)
Amazing!
Fallon Cook (21:47)
I would have, I would have dominated. That would be my thing. It's probably the only sport I'd ever be good at.
Dr Laura (21:47)
Yeah.
Well, it's a pretty impressive one. I never installed a car seat in the whole time my children were in car seats. I never. I just had other people to help.
Fallon Cook (21:59)
How? How did you just always
take it? okay. Yep.
Dr Laura (22:04)
I had other people to help, ⁓ which could include, if my partner hadn't been around, it could include getting a friend over to do it. I just very rarely moved the car seats out of the car because ⁓ the couple of cars we had, we had car seats that just stayed in.
Fallon Cook (22:26)
Well, it sounds like you
were very lucky because I had, we could do a whole podcast episode on the very serious, horrifying, occurrences that happened in my children's car seats that required completely stripping them out of the car and washing them all. But we won't go into that. It was traumatizing and I don't, that'd be like, mm hmm.
Dr Laura (22:40)
⁓ gross.
Yeah, no, I'm sure there's some listeners would have some ideas.
Fallon Cook (22:52)
Like there's a reason why you don't have, ⁓ like you don't just do a nappy and no pant like pants over the top. I think this can go very badly wrong on that particular angle. Yeah, not good. Anyway, moving along. Someone actually wrote in once and asked us where the name Sombelle comes from. And I just, every week I kept forgetting to answer on the podcast. I don't remember who it was now. ⁓
Dr Laura (23:04)
no.
Moving on. Hey, yeah.
Fallon Cook (23:20)
But was a bit of ⁓ journey to find the name Sombelle wasn't it? Like I came up with something else that I really liked and you were like, nah, it's too hard. And yeah, we settled on Sombelle.
Dr Laura (23:25)
Yes.
Yes, it sounded a bit like
it was it was Somniere I think that you came up with and I said it's yeah but it sounded too much like Sommelier to me so which is the white
Fallon Cook (23:34)
Yeah, I still love Somniere
See, I'm just like, that's perfect.
Tired parents, wine. That would have been perfect. And I remember when I said to you, what about if we just went like, som-bell and you were like, yes, I really like it. And I was like, I don't really like it much. But then I just kept playing over my head and I was like, it's good. It'll do because of the meaning behind it, which is som or somnus is Latin for sleep. So you got like insomnia. Som is usually associated with sleep.
Dr Laura (23:45)
wine.
Fallon Cook (24:08)
And belle is the Latin word for beautiful. So Sombelle is like beautiful sleep. So it kind of has a bit of a meaning.
Dr Laura (24:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I always thought that
it, it does have a nice meaning. And I always thought Sombelle sleep well, was going to be a nice little catchphrase that we never used. We haven't, well, we haven't used it yet. ⁓ But yeah, I think it's beautiful. I really like it. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (24:28)
Wow. I like that. Yeah. It reminds
me, I don't know why it reminds me of like the little kiddie classes in the nineties. It's kind of got, I feel like it's got a nineties ring to it, but that's cool. Nineties. The nineties are cool again. Never thought that would happen, but they are.
Dr Laura (24:39)
Yeah.
Yeah, all the clothes are
back in the shops, aren't they, from when we were younger? All the teenagers are starting to wear the clothes that we wore when we were teenagers. It's pretty frightening. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (24:47)
Yeah.
It's crazy. All right. And just
finally, what's next for the podcast, the clinic and Sombelle? Maybe we start with the podcast. What are we going to do next, Laura?
Dr Laura (25:03)
Yeah, so ⁓ we are soon going to start to have guests coming on the podcast, which we're really excited about. So because you and I have worked in the ⁓ child health and child research space for so many years, we are quite well connected with various experts in various areas of parenting. So we're really excited to invite
Fallon Cook (25:11)
Ahem.
Dr Laura (25:32)
some of our friends, colleagues and contacts onto the podcast to talk to us about a whole range of parenting topics. if you are listening to this and you have some ideas of particular topics you would like us to discuss, write in, us know and we will see if we can line up a speaker who can come in and talk to you all about that. So we're super excited, aren't we, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (25:57)
Mmm.
It will be great to dive into some other topics, but I think to tie in how sleep impacts those things as well. So I know in a few weeks we'll be interviewing a really good friend of ours, Dr. Kylie, and she's a speech pathologist. She's going to be talking about, you know, speech and language and how that develops and just, you know, some signs you can look out for that your child might need some extra supports. But we'll also be talking about how
the development of speech and language is tied to sleep quality as well. yeah, hoping to kind of build that bit more breadth to the content that we're delivering here as well. And what a great way to do it, but to actually bring in the experts. So yeah, it's going to be really fun. And if you're an expert on a topic and you think, I'd love to be on the podcast. Yeah. Reach out to us. Cause we'd love to have a chat. Be amazing. And in terms of our clinic, we were just saying before, weren't we? How much it's grown. There's now six people.
Dr Laura (26:33)
Hmm
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (26:53)
Literally like last year, it was just you and I doing everything, everything ourselves. And now we have admin support and this beautiful team. We've got three new practitioners who are amazing. And because we always work on cases as a team, it just brings this lovely depth of knowledge to our skillset in our sleep clinics.
Dr Laura (26:59)
Yep.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (27:18)
⁓ we've got beautiful Lauren, who is a very experienced nurse and a sleep practitioner, and she's got expertise with children from zero through to 12 years of age. So she sees primary school aged children, ⁓ in our children's sleep Australia clinic. ⁓ we've got Cat, who is a children's nurse and a sleep practitioner, and she's just so wonderful with the little babies. And more recently, Kellie who's an occupational therapist and sleep practitioner.
Dr Laura (27:27)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (27:43)
⁓ and of course her background, she's helped children, you know, with all sorts of sleep difficulties and other co-occurring conditions as well. ⁓ and of course you, Laura, you see kids that are through to 17 years of age. So even some teenagers in there as well. So how incredible to have been able to, you know, expand into these different areas and just give families the best experience and the most expertise we can possibly gather in one spot. I'm so pumped to see.
Dr Laura (27:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (28:11)
us all grow and develop our skills over the next few years.
Dr Laura (28:11)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. It's so exciting. ⁓ And it is really wonderful to have this big team with all different range of skill sets that we can all learn from and that all of our listeners can also benefit from. So yeah, we're so excited to see what the next year brings as well.
Fallon Cook (28:33)
Mmm.
Yeah. And I shouldn't forget
either that we have lovely Khristal who is our administration coordinator and a lot of the families who see us will have some contact with Khristal as well. And she's just such a fantastic help and really helps to keep all the, ⁓ the cogs on the wheel turning, ⁓ and make sure all families have a really good experience. So it's amazing. And then some bell in terms of some bell and what's next. There's a lot of things coming soon that I won't talk about cause I can't just yet. They're still very early days, but.
Dr Laura (28:53)
Yes.
Hmm... Yes?
Fallon Cook (29:06)
We have finally published our Nightwaking Master Classes. These were put up online for all Somvale members. So it's freely available for Somvale members within the courses. You'll see a new chapter that says Master Classes. And I put so much work into making those Master Classes really detailed and pulling together all the little bits of information you need to really ensure that no matter how old your child is that you're minimizing their night waking and everyone's getting
Dr Laura (29:07)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (29:35)
the best possible rest they can. ⁓ So I'm really excited for that. And our plan is that we will gradually add more master classes so that you can sit down, watch a video, know, hear somebody talk through some of the content, because we know that that's really helpful. ⁓ Everybody learns in different ways and providing a video format I think is really, really cool. So yeah, I'm excited to get some feedback on those master classes. So if you have done it and you have
Dr Laura (29:38)
Yeah.
Hmm, yes.
Fallon Cook (30:02)
Loved it or any other feedback, let us know. We would really love to hear it.
Dr Laura (30:07)
Yeah, definitely. And if you've got some ideas for a particular masterclass topic as well, let us know because, it's all, yeah, we just want to make Sombelle the best that we possibly can for all our members. So we always like to get your questions and your feedback. So do send it in. So should we move on to parent questions now?
Fallon Cook (30:15)
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah,
let's dive into the serious stuff. We've got some really good questions for this one.
Dr Laura (30:35)
Okay.
Yes. So our first question is from Danielle and Danielle has a five month old baby who was born three weeks early, who used to contact nap. And then they've made great progress with cot naps using patting and shushing. Recently, Danielle's baby began teething and since then will only sleep on a parent again. So Danielle's wondering.
Is it a waste of time trying to reintroduce cot sleep whilst teething, or should they ⁓ wait? She also wants to know, it better to first focus on a consistent daily rhythm, even if it means contact naps, or can they start working on the rhythm and cot settling at the same time?
And finally, if their baby has 10 a half hours overnight and needs 13 hours total, should they wake from long naps?
Fallon Cook (31:40)
Yeah, really good question. So first of all, it's not a waste of time trying to reintroduce cot settling whilst your baby's teething. I mean, of course you can wait if you want to. The problem with teething is that it can go on for months and months and you don't really get a break. So if you really want to work on sleep, just do it, but make sure you're using pain relief so that you can be really confident that if they do have some pain that it's under control ⁓ before you're trying to make these changes.
⁓ so yeah, don't feel like you have to wait. ⁓ but you know, if it's feeling too hard right now, of course, you know, in a couple of weeks, things might be a bit easier for you. ⁓ is it better to focus on a consistent daily rhythm first, even if it means contact naps, ⁓ or should they start the cot settling at the same time? I'm a big fan of working on the daily rhythm first, really letting that daily rhythm build up sleep pressure. so that when you're after three or four days to a week,
When you go to set up your baby, that sleep drive is really nice and high. ⁓ and then if you change to cot settling at that point, you're much more likely to have an easier time of things because your baby is just really, really wanting sleep. They're really ready for sleep and you're never trying to settle them in the cot if they're not quite tired enough. often parents will say, once we've got the daily rhythm in place for a week, it was so much easier to work on cot settling than it had been in the past. So that is a
Dr Laura (32:59)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (33:06)
a really good tip for anyone who's facing that struggle. And absolutely yes. So if your baby's having 10 and a half hours of sleep at nighttime, needs around 13 hours each day, wake them from their longer naps. So they've probably got a budget of about two and a half hours of day sleep ⁓ if they're having 10 and a half hours overnight. So you just want to make sure they don't go too far past that two and a half hour limit for their day sleep.
Dr Laura (33:09)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (33:30)
So you can wake a sleeping baby, especially if you are trying to improve their nights and improve their sleep quality. would you add anything to that Laura?
Dr Laura (33:32)
Yes.
Awesome.
No, think that's you've just covered it all. So Danielle, I think you've got some good ideas there from Fallon and let us know how you get on.
Fallon Cook (33:51)
Yeah, for sure. Now let's move on to Emma. So Emma has a nine month old who previously had tummy pain from food intolerances, which has since been resolved through diet changes. They've made big progress using SlowFade, removing a feed to sleep association and they're down to one night feed. He now settles without needing much help. Well done, Emma.
Dr Laura (34:14)
Yeah, that's great.
Fallon Cook (34:14)
However, their baby
still wakes up, gosh, up to 15 times overnight, especially from 3 a.m. onwards, and they're wondering what they can do. He has an 11 and a half hour average sleep duration, sleeps for an hour and a half for his first nap and 40 minutes for his second one. But this one clashes with kinder pickup for their four year old, so they aren't sure whether to give him the nap before or after pickup, and whether to stick to that nap schedule on non-school days too.
Dr Laura (34:20)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (34:43)
They've tried moving the bedtime later, but this makes the 3am wakeups worse. The best overnight results come from a 7.30pm bedtime and 6am wakeup, which doesn't make sense due to his low sleep needs. And she wonders, what are we getting wrong? Sounds complicated.
Dr Laura (34:43)
you
⁓ Emma,
it does sound complicated. So I'm delighted, Emma, that you have ⁓ resolved ⁓ the tummy pain due to food intolerance. that's great. ⁓ Yes, 15 wake ups overnight just sounds just terrible, really unsustainable. And so I think that we probably need to be doing some
timing changes, Emma. Sometimes what can happen is that when you first make some changes to the daily rhythm, it can feel like sleep gets worse and it goes all up in the air before it settles down. So I know that you said you've tried to move bedtime a little bit later and then that feels like the nights get worse. I mean, I feel for you if it can get worse and 15 wakes overnight. I mean, that's so bad.
⁓ I would be saying to make a daily rhythm change and stick with it, even if it feels like it gets worse for a couple of days, because it is then likely to resolve. So really, we want to stick with any schedule change for at least a week before we can be sure whether we need to make any further tweaks. So
Fallon Cook (36:17)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (36:24)
With an 11 and a half hour average sleep duration, it sounds like your little one is having just over about two hours daytime sleep. So that would mean that they have about nine and a half hours left overnight. ⁓ And they're currently going to bed at 7.30 and waking up at six. So that's about
10 and a half hours of sleep. So I think we could probably do a little bit of tweaking with moving that bedtime a little bit later. And also, once you've made that tweak and stuck with it for a week, knowing that it might initially get a tiny bit worse, but as I say, it's hard to know how much worse it can get Emma, you poor thing. I would also be looking at you say that he's settling without much help. So I would be double checking
with how much is not much help. Is he still going to sleep with you patting him, for example, if you've been using the slow fade approach. If he is, then I would be moving on to the next steps where you start to give him very short periods of time where you lift your hand off him so that he can start to fall asleep with less hands on support. Because then you'll find that as he moves through his cycles overnight,
Fallon Cook (37:22)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:48)
He's not going to be so surprised that your hands are not on him when he's coming up into light sleep. So definitely continue to make those steps through the slow fade. If you haven't already, it may be that if you're really just very close to being there and sometimes he is falling asleep without your hands on him, that actually you could switch to the supported accelerated just to finally get over the line.
Fallon Cook (38:15)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (38:17)
What do you think Fallon would you add anything else?
Fallon Cook (38:18)
Yeah.
I think that is great advice. I think about the children I've seen in clinic where they are so exquisitely sensitive to even just having a little bit of extra day sleep, like one morning they sleep in an extra half an hour. And then we just see the repercussions across the following few nights. So I would do your best to be quite strict with that daily rhythm for a full week. Don't allow us sleeping if they have a tricky night, like really try and stick to that rhythm ⁓ and give it a full week because sometimes it
Dr Laura (38:38)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (38:49)
really does take a week for them to kind of click into that new pattern. And I also agree with your Laura on the, you know, how he's falling asleep. ⁓ If some babies are just like, if you're in the room when I fall asleep, if I can see you over there when I fall asleep at bedtime and I wake up overnight and you're not over there still, you know, I'm calling out until you get back in that chair. So.
Dr Laura (39:06)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
Fallon Cook (39:14)
You know, some of them are that sensitive. you know, even if you're not doing much, yeah, it might be that you actually just need to work on not being in the room when he falls asleep at the start of the night. And once you've got that high enough sleep pressure as well, when he does wake overnight, he's going to go, ⁓ yeah, everything's exactly as it was when I fell asleep. And also I'm really damn tired because I've found this new schedule and they're not letting me catch up on day sleep or whatever. ⁓ And you'll find that he will start to use those skills to resettle himself.
Dr Laura (39:22)
Mmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (39:43)
given the
severity of that night waking, I would also just add that it sounds like a pretty severe sleep situation. ⁓ and it might be the sort of situation where a coaching call, ⁓ or a clinic appointment is a really good idea just so we can have a really close look at what's going on. So if things aren't improving soon, Emma, that's what I would do. I wouldn't want to put up with that for too long because I don't think anyone can survive it to be honest. It's that's tough.
Dr Laura (39:49)
Yeah.
you
Hmm. ⁓
No, really hard.
All right, our next question is from Katherine. Katherine has a seven month old baby girl who's currently on three naps and has no signs yet of being ready to drop down to two. However, Katherine's returning to work soon and she wants to make that transition to two naps before she goes back to work. And she's wondering if it's okay to drop to two naps early.
before a baby is showing any readiness signs for logistical reasons like she has. She's added that her baby is not having any split nights, there's no nap resistance and there's no bedtime issues. This is a curious one, we've not been asked this one before, have we?
Fallon Cook (40:48)
Hmm.
No, look, ideally we wait until they show us that they need two naps. Like that's the ideal. If you really need to do it, I think you can try and see how it goes. it's, you know, still offer the same total amount of day sleep, but across two naps. But I also think so often when parents return to work, their babies suddenly take an extra.
Dr Laura (40:57)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (41:18)
Like at this age in particular, seven months, they often will be like, I'm so tired because I went to childcare or I was at Nana's house or, know, things are a little bit different. that then parents often do say, gosh, they're suddenly having a sneaky little car nap on the way home or late in the evening. Or so sometimes they kind of want to do that during these big transitions. ⁓ so yeah, I would say you can try it. It's not something I've had a lot of experience with because we just typically wouldn't suggest it, but if it is really important for some reason for your family.
Dr Laura (41:33)
Mmm. Mmm.
you
Fallon Cook (41:48)
⁓ give it a try. At least those seven months and not six, most babies they're six or seven months when they moved to two naps. So if she's not there yet, she's going to be pretty close. So give it a try. Might be that you've got to give it at least a few days to see how she goes. Would you agree Laurel?
Dr Laura (41:48)
Mm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
I certainly wouldn't wait until she actually starts daycare to do it. I would give it a go for a week before you return to work and before she starts at daycare. And if she just can't manage it, it's going to be a period of time where she just stays on three naps. And you'll be okay, Catherine. She will.
Fallon Cook (42:20)
Ahem.
Dr Laura (42:31)
she will make that transition when she's ready. So if you try it for a week, and you're just finding that she's shattered in the afternoon, just cannot get through that last wake window without having a little power nap or you know, everything just falls over, then just revert to the three naps, start her at daycare on the three naps. And then when she does start to show the signs, move her to the two naps.
Fallon Cook (43:00)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (43:01)
at that point. It's a tricky, yeah, I haven't had any experience of this actually. So yeah, much like Fallon, I'm kind of feeling my way with it. So have a little experiment, but don't be surprised if it doesn't work because she's got she's not showing any signs at all. It might just be a bit too much for her. But you're not going to harm her by giving it a go.
Fallon Cook (43:13)
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes they surprise us and they manage things better than we think they will. yeah. All right. We have a question from Penny. So Penny has a 21 month old toddler who toilet trained herself and is now dry overnight and sleeps well overall. ⁓ that's amazing. I wish I'd had one of those. She, she goes to bed at 8 PM and is asleep by 9 PM. The issue is.
Dr Laura (43:30)
Yeah. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (43:54)
Pre-bed potty requests. Sometimes there are several in a row despite already using the potty successfully. So Penny's wondering, is this a typical toilet training phase or a bedtime delay tactic? And would a bedtime chart or reward system be helpful at this age?
Dr Laura (44:10)
Hmm. Okay, Penny. Yeah, there's going to be many people who are very jealous of you listening to that experience that you are having, Penny. I think it is a stalling behaviour because it sounds like it's taking up to an hour for your toddler to fall asleep at bedtime. And that is an hour that is really boring for a toddler. And she would be using whatever tactics she can.
to delay and put off just lying in bed bored. And she will have learned through toilet training that it's something that you always will respond to immediately. Yes.
Fallon Cook (44:52)
immediately too, you probably drop everything. Yeah,
they know like this is how I get attention if I say like I need to go use the potty, everyone stops what they're doing.
Dr Laura (44:59)
Yeah.
Yes.
So I think the first thing to do would be to think about whether the 8pm bedtime is actually a little bit too early. And if you 8pm is really important to you, then think about what time wake up is in the morning or how long the day nap is so that you can bring down the time it's taking her to fall asleep. Remember that we really want that time for falling asleep to be under 20 minutes, you know, much less if possible.
⁓ then we know that at the point that you're popping your toddler down at night is the time that she's actually going to be ready to go to sleep. ⁓ therefore is less likely to use stalling tactics. ⁓ when we have situations where those kinds of stalling tactics have become a little bit of a habit using a bedtime routine chart, just to try to, ⁓ make it really clear.
how many things happen in the lead up to bedtime and in what order that we combine with a reward at the end, be it a big kiss and a cuddle or a sticker or a kiss on the hand or you know, whatever your reward is in your household can be a really successful way of saying no more stalling tactics. These are just the things that happen in this reasonable time frame ⁓ and then ⁓ nothing more after that.
Fallon Cook (46:20)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (46:29)
Yeah, do you have anything to add, Fallon
Fallon Cook (46:32)
Yeah. Only that, um, yeah, having like a visual chart or even you might even get them to check it off the list. Like, oh, we went potty. Let's check that off the list. We've done that now. So we don't need to do it again. And then if you're doing that really close to the time when she's ordinarily falling off to sleep, then there's going to be less resistance unless, no, no, no, I want to go again. I want to go again because her body's thinking, gosh, I'm really tired. It's almost 9pm.
Dr Laura (46:44)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (46:58)
you know, this is when we fall asleep. So it's sort of doing those two things in combination that should really, really help. ⁓ Good luck, Penny. It sounds like you're doing such a great job. ⁓ And hopefully those bedtimes will get on track nice and quickly.
Dr Laura (47:04)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, our next question is from Justine and Justine has a seven month old baby who wakes every two hours overnight.
Fallon Cook (47:23)
Sorry, that big crash was my light system falling down, crashing on my desk. Sorry, Justine. Carry on, Laura.
Dr Laura (47:31)
Okay, so Justine has
a seven month old baby who wakes every two hours overnight and is fed about three times. Justine says that her baby is really difficult to transfer back to the cot after those feeds without waking. She also has many false starts at bedtime, so they often hold her until they themselves go to bed later on at night.
Justine says that cot settling attempts usually result in crying, which Justine isn't comfortable with. Her baby often settles instantly when held by her, but not when held by dad. Justine also has a two year old who slept through from 12 weeks of age, but things are not improving with their second baby. Solo parenting days are challenging.
because the toddler disturbs the baby who then doesn't nap until the toddler does, even with walks in the pram. So Justine is wondering if we have any suggestions to manage settling and nap timing with a toddler in the mix. She says that she doesn't want to be told to toughen up and let her baby cry. ⁓ sounds complicated, doesn't it, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (48:48)
It's really, really tough, Justine, you poor, poor thing. I think, you know, I definitely don't want to tell Justine to toughen up. Baby cry. That's not what I want to tell you. But I want to tell you that when you have two children, you know, you're a family of four.
Dr Laura (48:51)
Hmm.
Mmm.
No.
Fallon Cook (49:09)
You have to make decisions about the wellbeing of everyone. And that's what is so hard about having more than one child is that there's just so much more pressure on you to be trying to juggle everybody's wellbeing. ⁓ And part of wellbeing, one of the three pillars, as we often talk about is sleep. So having good quality sleep for your baby as well. Babies have sleep quality. They need to have sleep quality. It's a really important component.
Dr Laura (49:28)
Mm.
Fallon Cook (49:37)
of every child's wellbeing. So what I would say is Justine, we have to identify what is the root cause of those wakeups. From what you're saying, I mean, I can't be sure. I haven't done an assessment and I haven't seen a sleep diary, but I would say there's a couple of components. We've got false starts. So there's 100 % a problem with the daily rhythm there. So there's something going on with the timing that's making the nights extra hard, but we can fix the timing.
Dr Laura (49:57)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (50:03)
I would say in your case, it's not going to entirely resolve the night waking. ⁓ Being held to fall asleep and also still having quite a few night feeds as well. And you're saying that it's difficult to transfer her to the cot without her waking. It really tells you that this is a baby who is very upset to wake in the night and go, how the heck did I end up in my cot? So they're waking up feeling quite upset to find themselves in that position.
Dr Laura (50:07)
Mmm.
Hmm.
you
Fallon Cook (50:30)
Um, and it's fair enough. It's a bit like if you fall asleep in your bed, but you wake up on your back patio in the middle of the night, you'd be like, what the heck happened? How did I get here? You'd probably be pretty freaked out. And if it kept happening multiple times a night, you'd be upset about it. You'd probably, I would cry if that was happening to me. Um, so.
Dr Laura (50:30)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think you once said
Fallon and it made me laugh. If your partner, if you fell asleep in your bed and then during the night your partner went and moved you to the sofa, you'd get really cranky with your partner. Like, would you stop doing it? Yeah.
Fallon Cook (50:54)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. You would though, it'd be so
frustrating and you'd be exhausted the next day. So I know it's really, really hard for some babies to settle in their cot, but they get used to what we help them adjust to. So sometimes when we have to consider wellbeing, there is
You know, it's, it's so challenging because we go, well, we know we have to do this thing or we're not going to have wellbeing, but approaching that thing and working out how you're going to do it is really, really hard. But I would say all babies, if some have a really easy temperament, they adjust really easily. Some have a really challenging temperament and adjustments are really hard for them. But as parents, if it comes down to our children's wellbeing, we have to make tough decisions sometimes. And it's that we can't always remove the obstacle.
that is in our children's way that makes them upset. In this case, it's being put in the cot, makes the baby upset. We can't really remove that obstacle. At some point, this baby, whether it's now or when they're 10 years old, they're going to sleep on their own. They're going to need to sleep on their own. Maybe they go to childcare and they have to sleep in a cot. We can't remove the obstacle. But as parents, we can show our children that we love them and support them when they make these adjustments. We can give them
Dr Laura (52:11)
you
Fallon Cook (52:19)
constant hands-on support, all the reassurance in the world, we can take tiny little baby steps, and we're showing our children, I am here for you 100%. If you are upset or something is hard for you, I'm gonna be here before, I'm gonna be here during, and I'm gonna be here afterwards. And that is what builds really strong, beautiful connections between babies and toddlers and parents. It's actually us showing them, you can do hard things. This is hard, it's really hard for you.
Dr Laura (52:44)
you
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (52:48)
but I'm absolutely here to support you through it whilst you adjust to it. And eventually this baby will go, ⁓ I am actually okay here. And, then sleep quality drastically improves their daytime mood improves the whole household improves everybody's wellbeing improves. So I hope I haven't just given you the gentlest version of toughen up and let them cry because that's not what I'm trying to do. But I just think you have, have a little think about those things because I think Justine already knows that
Dr Laura (52:57)
Yeah.
Hmm. ⁓
No.
Fallon Cook (53:17)
part of the problem is trying to get her into the cot. And I don't think that that is something we can avoid. ⁓ Some parents absolutely will consider co-sleeping at a point like this. ⁓ And some parents love it. Obviously SIDS guidelines, we are very much no, don't do co-sleeping. ⁓ But I think for some families, they do just find it such a big hurdle that come toddlerhood, they go, well, they're a toddler now, it's not as dangerous to co-sleep. And they just opt to co-sleep. But again, that might go on for several years. So is that what you want to?
Dr Laura (53:21)
you
You
Fallon Cook (53:47)
do, um, you know, it's, guess comes down to what parents feel they can manage. So, sorry, that was a big unpacking of things, but I think it's really important to dive into this sort of stuff because sometimes it is really clear that there's a, um, a challenging problem, but the only way through it is through it. And it's, you know, it could be hard to hear that.
Dr Laura (53:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah,
be hard, particularly on the back of having a wonderful sleeper, like it sounds that the first baby was sleeping through from 12 weeks of age. here's what we do. We're often saying that we always say every child is unique when we look at the baby in front of us. And within the same family, you can have chalk and cheese sleepers.
Fallon Cook (54:36)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (54:37)
Justine has had one baby that slept through from 12 weeks and, you know, potentially, I'm sure Justine and her partner were like, Woohoo, we've nailed this parenting, because it does feel wonderful when you do do something when when something goes really well as a parent, you really need to congratulate yourself for those things. Yes, we've done it. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (54:52)
Yeah. ⁓
You're like, yeah, we are good at this. And then the second child comes along and it's like, total different story.
Dr Laura (55:04)
And then you're like, ah, this is what people are talking about. So people who have never had a picky eater or a fussy eater have no idea how terrible mealtimes can be. No idea. What's the fuss? Why is everyone making a fuss about this? Until you're in that situation, you're just clueless. And so Justine's had one experience of a great sleeper now she's got a second one whose sleep is really challenging. And it's really starting to...
Fallon Cook (55:07)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (55:32)
affect the family's well being and functioning. listen, Justine, if it would be helpful for you, do book in for a coaching call, because Falon will be able to do a deep dive into what's happening for your seven month old baby's sleep and pick out a practical pragmatic approach that you are more likely to be able to stick to whilst also parenting a toddler because having
Fallon Cook (55:37)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (56:01)
those competing demands in the day in particular can make things really tricky. That's what the coaching calls are there for when there are families who are really in the trenches. So do book in.
Fallon Cook (56:08)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. And
I would say if you just want something you can do right now, Justine, start working on step one of the slow fade approach, which is just where you're going to introduce patting and shushing to every settle. So if you feed her to sleep, hold her to sleep, even if she doesn't want patting and shushing, do it anyway, make those her new sleep associations and then down the track, whether we work together or not.
When you do go to move her to her own sleep space, you've got something really familiar that can carry over to that space. And it might make a really big difference for what sounds to be a quite sensitive baby. ⁓ but all the very best Justine and you know, we really hope you see some improvement soon and do reach out for support if you need it.
Dr Laura (56:44)
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
there's that one more question from Larissa.
So Larissa says that she's got a couple of questions. So one is she says, I understand that sleep cycles lengthen over time. Could you please explain when and how this occurs in babies? Because I'm concerned about waking my eight and a half month old from naps. I'm wondering about whether when she wakes.
Fallon Cook (57:02)
Okay.
Dr Laura (57:18)
the baby from naps if that's going to align with the sleep cycle length as it changes. So I can just jump in really quickly just answer that one before we go on to the main question. So Larissa, sleep cycles do start off quite short in very little babies, know, we might in really small babies, they might be 25 minutes long.
Fallon Cook (57:27)
Mm, yep.
Dr Laura (57:42)
and then they start to lengthen to 30 minutes. 45 minutes is kind of the average. And as a child enters toddlerhood and beyond, they can get longer. By the time they're starting school, they're much more like adult length sleep cycles, which are closer to 90 minutes. The rate at which they change and lengthen, I don't think has been studied really clearly yet.
Fallon Cook (58:09)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (58:10)
So I can't answer that question. isn't, I don't think there has been a study on the natural history of sleep cycle lengths across the first few years of life. I think that would be a wonderful, interesting study to do. So if there's any PhD students out there who want to do it, get in touch. Yeah, we've got loads of data. yes, so it really is ⁓ individual to, so all I can say at the moment is that we just look at the child in front of us.
Fallon Cook (58:25)
Yeah, we'll supervise you. Come do the research.
Dr Laura (58:40)
So let's say you had determined, Larissa, that your child's sleep cycle length is 40 minutes and you're waking them from naps at 40 minute increments, like 40 minutes or an hour 20 or, and so on. And you start to find that when you're waking your little one, they're a bit grumpy, a bit harder to wake then, and take a bit longer to warm up once you've woken them. There's a good chance their sleep cycle length has changed. ⁓ And that
40 minutes might now be 45, for example. So then just watch them again when they're sleeping, see when they wriggle their little body. ⁓ Then that will give you a sense of how long that sleep cycle is. Yeah, so now the main part of Larissa's question is that she says, my eight and a half month old consistently waits between four and 5am. Although she can be resettled without a feed, she often needs to be picked up to fall back to sleep.
Fallon Cook (59:12)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (59:37)
We've tried adjusting bedtime later and wake up earlier and reviewed her overall sleep need, but the issue persists. She typically sleeps for nine and a half hours overnight, has two daily naps of 40 to 60 minutes each. She has an overall sleep need of 11 hours, wakes at six, goes to bed at eight 30. She usually settles independently for naps and at bedtime. And Larissa is looking for suggestions to resolve the early morning wakeups.
She's tried reducing the daytime sleep further, but she finds she's cranky on less sleep during the day. What do we reckon?
Fallon Cook (1:00:07)
Hmm.
everything's going
yeah if everything's going so well aside from the early wake up I'd be really tempted to do a full shift of the circadian rhythm along a little bit later so it might be that every three days or so you push nap time bedtime wake up time 15 minutes later let her adapt then do it again and see if she can shuffle along and everything just moves that that bit later
Dr Laura (1:00:26)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (1:00:41)
And if you're finding no matter what, you know, you've addressed the potential environmental things that could be alerting her that it's morning time. Um, and she's still waking up that early. It doesn't happen very often. I would say it's pretty rare, but some babies are real morning larks and they just love to be up early. Um, but it is very, very rare that we try all these things and then find that we can't shuffle bedtime later. So chances are just pushing it all along a little bit is really going to help. You just can't do it in one giant leap.
Dr Laura (1:01:05)
Mmm. ⁓
Fallon Cook (1:01:11)
Just shuffling it 15 minutes every few days or so is just a good way to just gradually sort of shunt the circadian rhythm along that little bit. Is that what you suggest, Laura?
Dr Laura (1:01:15)
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely. And the other things that I'd be looking at, and I'm sure Larissa has already checked all of these things, is the room temperature okay at that hour? That is the coldest part of the night, coldest part of our body, our core body temperature as well. So making sure that your eight month old isn't waking because they're cold, making sure that there's no noise outside that's waking them at that hour, any lights that...
come on from the neighbours, ⁓ any dogs barking, ensuring that you're using white noise and just ruling out any of those environmental factors. But otherwise, I think your advice is spot on there, Fallon, that just shuffling the circadian rhythm by 15 minutes every few days, almost like we do at daylight saving times.
Fallon Cook (1:02:12)
Mm, yeah. Yep, excellent. ⁓ good luck, Larissa. Well, thank you everyone for joining us for our 100th episode. How incredible.
Dr Laura (1:02:13)
Yeah.
Yes. ⁓
Fallon Cook (1:02:23)
If you are needing
enhanced support for sleep or settling, it's what we do. We work with the most challenging cases. are, you we get a lot of referrals from pediatricians who say, I've tried everything with this child and you know, come and help us. That's what we do. We work with complex cases. So if you're needing a lot of support, you've got the option of booking into our clinic ⁓ or booking a coaching call. Of course, some of our Sombelle members opt for clinic appointments because they're a bit longer and a little bit more detailed.
We have that availability. have telehealth appointments or if you're in Melbourne, you can go and visit Laura in our lovely little clinic in Hawthorn East. If you've been tuning in and you're not a Sombelle member yet, why not? Hurry up and come and join us. If you're needing that support, it's there. It's a great resource. We put all of our best sleep advice in there. And if you have enjoyed these 100 episodes,
Dr Laura (1:02:50)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (1:03:16)
And you want to give us a little thanks. we can, Laura, we need to start like a piggy bank saving up for ⁓ a podcast producer or sound engineer. Maybe, maybe these parents, yeah, anyone out there who would like to buy us a coffee, we'll start to, ⁓ you know, save up our pennies and, hopefully get some more support with the podcast. ⁓ but yeah, you can buy us a coffee if you would like to, to, ⁓ to thank us. Thank you everyone.
Dr Laura (1:03:23)
Yes!
you
Yes.
Fallon Cook (1:03:39)
Truly, from the bottom of my heart, it has been such a pleasure, these 100 episodes, hearing your stories, hearing your successes and celebrating those successes, the people who've struggled for, you know, sometimes years with sleep and then they find us, we help them and see the whole family life turn around. That is an absolute privilege to be part of and thank you for letting us be part of that journey for your family.
Dr Laura (1:03:40)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right, thanks everyone. Bye bye.
