Fallon Cook (00:02)
Knowing when and how to drop a nap is important. It can make the difference between your little one having great overnight sleep and weeks or even months of really tricky nights, but there's a knack to it.
Today we unpack the key signs that your little one is ready to drop a nap and we talk you through exactly how to manage the transition.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, what a great response we had to our 100th episode last week.
Dr Laura (00:44)
Yeah, we did. I had someone in clinic last week who had listened to it and they said that they had felt they'd had a really nice chat with me the night before when they were listening to it.
Fallon Cook (00:57)
Oh,
that's nice. That's really nice. We had a really lovely message on Instagram from Chiara who said, I loved finding out that sombal means beautiful sleep. It makes me love it even more. My daughter definitely has more beautiful sleep since discovering you guys. That's nice. Yeah. Yeah. What a milestone. And now we're onto 101 and we're going to dive into
Dr Laura (01:14)
Aww, that's so lovely. Yeah, thanks Chiara.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (01:25)
how to drop a nap, which is something we do get a lot of questions about. But first, I also wanted to say thank you so much for the feedback on the Nightwaking Master Classes. So the Nightwaking Master Classes are a recent addition to the Sombelle programs and they're included for free with all the memberships to Sombelle. But we've had a lot of parents saying that it really helped to tie together everything.
they kind of knew they needed to be across in terms of night waking. It's helped them to really nail their sleep plan for their child. And lots of reports of little ones doing really well through the night, lots of big improvements and some of them even sleeping through the night. β So well done to those families. It is amazing to hear that lovely feedback. So if you have a little one who's struggling with night waking, I highly recommend you join Sombelle or if you're already a member, go and check out the masterclass. β
Dr Laura (02:07)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (02:18)
chapter and that's where the Nightwaking Masterclass lives. So that's terrific. Really good to get that feedback.
Dr Laura (02:22)
Yes, fantastic. Yeah, thank you for doing
that, Fallon it was distilling the essence of β quite a few elements of Somme Bell into one place and parents can listen to it as they're doing other things as well. So that's wonderful.
Fallon Cook (02:40)
Hmm. Yeah, it's, you know, we all learn in different ways, don't we? And sometimes it's nice to have someone just talk you through something so that you're not having to, to read it. But, yeah, dropping naps is something we get so many questions about, don't we? we thought, right, it's time to do an episode on how to do it. It can be really tricky. Um, and I don't, you even with the best advice, it's not always going to be smooth sailing. Um, but we figured.
Dr Laura (02:44)
Mmm
Yes.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (03:08)
there are some things you can be across that can really help to recognize, you know, when's the right time to do it and you know, how, how to go about it. So do we start with some of the key signs parents might notice that sort of indicate their little ones ready to drop their nap? Do want to talk us through them, Laura?
Dr Laura (03:14)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, so key signs that your little one is ready to drop a nap β include that they're becoming difficult to settle for their last nap of the day. Often we see that β babies or toddlers have to be settled on the go. That last nap of the day has to be in the pram or the car. No hope of a cut nap. Yeah, that's right. So, yeah, that's a key one. β Another sign is that
Fallon Cook (03:40)
Mmm. No hope of a cotnap.
Dr Laura (03:53)
they push all their naps later than usual. So it's like a domino effect. The first nap gets a bit later, the second nap gets a bit later, and then you can't fit the last nap in, for example. And if you do, the next thing that can happen is that they're difficult to settle at bedtime. So they might have all of their naps during the day, however many they have been on for a while.
And then you just find that bedtime really starts to push out. It's taking 20, 30 minutes or longer for your little one to fall asleep. Sometimes we also begin to see the number of times that they wake overnight increases. So they may be waking more frequently overnight. They may be wanting more feeds or they may be having split nights or they may be wanting more things to happen when they wake in the night.
when previously they might have been down to short number of wakes. Or the other thing that happens is that they start waking early for the day. So, you there's 4am wakes, 5am wakes, and they are just bright eyed, ready to go. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (04:54)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
And often parents will say, it's like, it just start one of these signs. It doesn't have to be all of those signs too. They could have maybe one or two of those signs. β parents will often say, you know, it started to change and it just wasn't going back to how it used to be. So if it's been a week and you've had one or two of those signs, hopefully not all of them, but one or two of them, and it's persisted for a week, plus they're roughly the right age to drop a nap.
Dr Laura (05:21)
Yes.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (05:33)
you know, it's probably time to just do it. β Yes, there are a few different ways that that can present really on there.
Dr Laura (05:35)
Mmm.
Yeah, that's right. So Fallon, do you want to talk about what age babies and toddlers usually drop in that?
Fallon Cook (05:48)
Hmm. So usually I would say they're going from maybe four or five naps down to three naps at around about the four to five month mark. But this is really, really variable at this very young age. Some will have six naps, you know, can really vary a lot. And it depends so much on nap length as well. So if your little baby cat naps a lot, they're probably going to have more naps for longer. But if they have really big long naps, they'll probably drop down to fewer naps.
Then what we see is they drop from about three naps per day to two naps per day at around six to eight months of age. And of course there's some variability there. They drop from two naps down to one nap at around 12 to 15 months. And from one nap to no naps at around about, this is where there's a big range of variability, but anywhere from maybe two years of age through to three years of age, but some will drop them earlier. Some will drop them later.
But as a general rule, if they are older than three years of age and there is any problem at all with their nighttime sleep, I would be dropping the day nap at that point. β So yeah, it's a bit of a guide. We want to see a collection of, you know, some of those signs you mentioned, Laura, plus they're roughly the right age, β you know, to drop a nap. That's when you can feel pretty confident that, yeah, it's time to do it. It's time to make that change. β But how to do it is...
Dr Laura (06:52)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, and it all happened so quickly.
β
Fallon Cook (07:11)
It does, it? Yeah, things are going great.
And then it's like, Oh no, they've gone and gotten older again. I've got to draft another one. Hmm. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (07:16)
Yes. β Yes, so how we go about it, how to drop a nap. So ticking those
boxes, they're showing some of those signs, they're the right age to drop a nap. We really suggest just get rid of it, get rid of that extra nap that they no longer need. It's usually easiest to drop it cold turkey. β And you can use what we call a bridging map sparingly on tricky days.
Fallon Cook (07:39)
Mm.
Dr Laura (07:44)
So that's when there's going to be too long between when they wake up from their last nap to bedtime. You can give them just a 15 or 20 minute nap later on in the afternoon to help them get through until bedtime. It's going to be really important that you space out their remaining naps across the day. So when you drop, let's say from three naps down to two naps.
Fallon Cook (08:03)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (08:06)
You don't want to keep those first two naps like one really early in the morning, one at lunchtime and then nothing until bedtime because your little one is just not going to be able to make it. So it's really important that you move that first nap a little bit later. And then the second nap, like a domino also moves a little bit later. And they will begin to get used to having those longer periods of time awake in the day. So don't miss that step. Really important to change the timing of the remaining naps.
Fallon Cook (08:12)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (08:35)
And know that there's going to be probably a tricky week. So ride out that tricky week. It's not going to be smooth sailing and that's okay. You can use that bridging map if you need to. If that last period of time awake before the start of the night is too long and they may be a little bit grumpy, a little bit cranky as they get used to being awake for longer during the day. But it normally settles down after about a week.
Fallon Cook (09:03)
Hmm. It's such good advice. Another tip I've been giving parents as well that sometimes works well for a baby or a toddler is β particularly those ones, especially with toddlers where they go, no, no, bridging nap is going to destroy bedtime. We're not going to do a bridging nap. What I often suggest is when you drop a nap, you could try adding 30 minutes more to that total nap duration so that it just helps them get through the day on a longer awake window in the lead up to bedtime.
β But you wouldn't probably be able to do that long term or their nights might start to get shorter and shorter. But it can just be a temporary measure to just let the day naps be slightly longer, β just to ease that transition down to whatever number of naps you're dropping to. β That can work really well. And yeah, definitely it's not always smooth sailing. I think probably a really common thing β we see parents encounter and it's definitely something to be on the lookout for.
Dr Laura (09:38)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (09:58)
is, you know, if you're dropping a day nap because your child's nights have been getting really challenging, you're feeling it overnight, then it can be really, really tough to drop a day nap. So even though you know you need to do it, it can be really hard because your baby's not getting good quality overnight sleep. So they're waking up on the back foot, they're feeling pretty groggy and therefore they're more tired during the daytime because their nights are so tricky. So then dropping a nap can feel almost counterintuitive, like they're obviously tired and want the nap.
Dr Laura (10:11)
Hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (10:28)
but that's because they're trying to compensate for a terrible night. And when they compensate for a terrible night with more day sleep, what does it lead to? Another terrible night. So you just kind of get stuck in this rotten cycle. if you've identified that your child definitely needs to drop a nap, you're worried about how they're going to cope during the day. β If the answer to that is that you've really got to drop the nap, then you've just got to dive in and know that you're going to have some really tricky days trying to stretch them out.
Dr Laura (10:31)
Yes.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (10:56)
trying to get them into that new daily rhythm. But once they do, their nights will improve and then they'll wake up more refreshed and then they'll power through the day really well on fewer day naps or less day sleep. β But it just takes a lot of bravery and some grit and determination to help sort of massage their circadian rhythm into that new pattern that we need them to be in to get that good quality sleep.
Dr Laura (11:08)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yeah, and often what we find is that babies who have only ever had cat naps, so naps of one sleep cycle when they've been on lots of naps in the day, do start to have at least one, sometimes two longer naps once you decrease the frequency of the naps across the day. And parents often will ask me, well, when we drop a nap,
Fallon Cook (11:40)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (11:44)
do, where does that half an hour, an hour, two hours, whatever it is, go for that, that nap that we're dropping, does that just go poof off into the ether? Or does it move into the night? Or does it move into the other naps? And it's a little bit of all of those, it depends on the child. So sometimes we do see like if they're dropping down from three naps to two naps, it's almost like the nap
Fallon Cook (11:48)
Yes.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (12:13)
two and nap three combine into one longer third nap. But for other β babies, they actually are just ready to be awake for a little bit more during the day. And that β nap β duration that they had for that third nap of the day just moves into the nighttime. And so bedtime comes a little bit earlier.
Fallon Cook (12:24)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Yeah. Or if their sleep needs are declining, because often, especially for babies, their sleep needs are typically declining over time. So if their sleep needs have dropped, then you're probably just getting rid of the nap. So that's where sort of monitoring how much sleep they're averaging can be really helpful. When you go to drop that nap, you kind of know if you need to push that nap into the other naps or into the night or yeah, just get rid of that sleep altogether.
Dr Laura (12:46)
Hmm.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (12:57)
Amazing. Hopefully that's a really helpful little guide for parents. β And of course, if you're a Sombelle member, there's lots about how to drop naps within the course as well. But let's move into some parent questions. We've got some absolute rippers this week. Laura, maybe I'll start with Jade. So Jade has a five month old who used to fall asleep in their arms and transfer to the cot with two or three overnight wakes for feeds.
Dr Laura (13:12)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (13:24)
After starting the slow fade approach, she had a few weeks of falling asleep in her cot independently. However, then she began rolling. dear. So they transitioned her out of the swaddle and she started waking frequently in the first hour at night and then hourly. Add to this, she became unwell. β no, was in hospital for a few nights. She's now extremely unsettled, refusing to sleep in her cot. They're now contact napping and co-sleeping. So Jade asks,
Dr Laura (13:32)
yeah.
you
Fallon Cook (13:52)
Can she reintroduce the slow fade approach now or should she wait until her baby is 100 % better? And she'd like to know why does her baby now hate the cot when previously it was no issue?
Dr Laura (14:05)
Jade, I'm sorry that you've had such a rough ride. None of us ever want our little ones in hospital. One of mine was in hospital when he was about that age as well. So I know how small they look in those little hospital beds. So I'm really pleased to hear that your little one is home now. But yeah, that is a big...
Fallon Cook (14:22)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (14:30)
horrible event for the whole family. So I'm not surprised that she's now really unsettled and that you are feeling nervous as well about changing sleep. You certainly can reintroduce the slow fade at this point, because it's so, so gentle, I would be thinking about reintroducing, going right back to step one. So reintroducing the patting and the shushing while she's still in your arms.
Fallon Cook (14:56)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (15:00)
So we just go very slowly and you know each time she wakes up overnight and you're resettling her in your arms using that patting and the shushing or the humming and then as you start to feel braver begin to put her down before she's fully asleep and use that patting and shushing again. So it's so very very gentle it would be appropriate to use at this point Jade.
In terms of your question about why you feel that she hates the cot now when she previously was fine in it. Look, it could just be her age. It could just be that she's five months old and she's just going, huh, I can have a taste of co sleeping. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she's really showing her preference. She doesn't want to be sleeping somewhere else.
Fallon Cook (15:38)
Hmm.
Yeah, she's had a taste of contact naps and it's fresh in memory. It's pretty good. Hate that cot now. Yeah.
Dr Laura (15:57)
but it's okay for you to support her to sleep somewhere else. So make sure that you're getting the daily rhythm right, Jade, now that she's a little bit older. Think about how many naps she's on, what the bedtime and wake up is, and when you're feeling resilient enough, jump back in. Did you have anything else to add, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (15:59)
Mm.
Hmm.
only add that I'm always super cautious with these things because your baby's not 100 % well, I would be a bit worried about the co-sleeping. So all I would say is do that step one of the slow fade approach, but once she's asleep in your arms, put her down in the cot because that's the safest place for her to be, especially if she's not well. β
Dr Laura (16:32)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (16:44)
Yeah, so you can still work through that approach, but just making sure that she goes back down in her cot once she's asleep, that's just going to minimise the risk of anything going wrong overnight. And look, hopefully, Jade, it will mean that you can sleep with a bit more confidence. I think so often parents don't sleep very well when their baby's in the bed beside them. know, parents are worried and yeah, that sort of thing. So good luck, Jade. And just know that, you know, things can turn around really quickly.
Dr Laura (16:53)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm, good point. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (17:12)
And it might be that, you know, once your baby's feeling 100 % better, you can make some pretty quick progress to get her back on track at that point. So do have hope. I think it's easy to feel really stuck in the trenches at this point, but you'll be out of there before you know it.
Dr Laura (17:19)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay, our next
question is from Grace and Grace has a toddler who is two years and seven months old. She recently dropped her nap due to overnight wakes and delayed bedtimes and at first things improved. But two weeks in, Grace says the overnight wakes have returned usually at about 1.30 in the morning where her toddler then needs quite a lot of reassurance to go back to sleep.
She sleeps for 11 and a half hours per 24 hours and used to nap for one hour with a 7.30 bedtime and a 6.30 wake up. They've now shifted bedtime to 7 p.m. Grace is wondering why the sudden return of night wakes? Could it be nightmares? And should they delay moving their toddler to a big bed until this settles down? Two good questions there.
Fallon Cook (18:26)
Yeah, really good questions. Definitely delay the move to a big bed until things are on track, unless she's actually showing signs that she's about to climb out of it. Look, I would say this is where it might, yeah, when the situation's like this, I'm always thinking when that child dropped the nap, were they actually ready to shed that sleep and not necessarily add it to their nights? So.
Dr Laura (18:30)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (18:49)
Have a look at how much sleep is she averaging now, even with that night wake, how much sleep does she average? If it's 11 and a half hours that she's averaging and you've got a 7.30 PM bedtime, then you wake her up at 6.30 AM every morning. Big dose of bright light, start the day. Don't allow us sleep in if she has that wake up overnight, or it's just going to continue. β If that total sleep average is dropping down a bit, maybe with that overnight wake, she's actually averaging 11 hours. Well, then it's going to be a 7 PM bedtime and a 6 AM wake up.
Dr Laura (19:02)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (19:19)
So just
tinker with that timing, have a look at the average. That's really going to help you to work out what needs to happen overnight. And then of course, be thinking about what do you do at 1.30 AM? Is it something really motivating? So this is where the night waking masterclass could be really helpful working through those factors. Is the timing right? Are there motivating factors? Like are there feeds being offered, a snack, a cuddle back to sleep, anything that could be motivating her to wake up? We want to make sure we address that β as well.
Dr Laura (19:31)
Mm.
Mmm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (19:48)
And if she's having any kind of help to fall asleep at the start of the night, is she waking up thinking, well, you know, where did that go? And, you know, she's wanting it back again. β so I'd work through, β those factors in the masterclass. Could it be nightmares? could be at this age, nightmares can start to happen. but you know, if it's every night at one 30, you know, I don't know.
Dr Laura (19:54)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (20:13)
Dunno, I think you'd really know if it were nightmares. She'd probably be using her words at this point to be able to explain what's frightening her. So, I don't know, I'm not convinced that it is nightmares, but it could be part of it. Yeah, what do you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (20:14)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yeah,
yeah, I think it's probably more likely that the deep sleep is over and she's moving into lighter sleep from that point. And it's probably more of a sleep pressure. If it was a nightmare, which as you say, Fallon could be happening, you would generally see her using her words, probably screaming, telling you that there's something scary happening. She might have racing heart. She might be sweaty.
Fallon Cook (20:33)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (20:56)
β and looking really, really agitated. And if that's the case, then I'd be calming her down, giving her a sip of water, not talking to her about the nightmare at that point. You could say it's just a dream β and settle her back to sleep. And in the morning, then you'd talk about, during the daytime is when you would be describing to Grace what a nightmare is. It's like a movie behind your eyes and it's just a β movie or a
Fallon Cook (20:56)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (21:25)
like an episode of Bluey on TV, it's not real. And yeah, that just helps a little one understand. At her age, it's probably not a great deal more we can do about nightmares because she's just so little. And for older children, there are a whole range of things that we can do for nightmares. But I would be thinking, yeah, it's probably more to do with sleep pressure, to be honest, Grace, but let us know how you get on.
Fallon Cook (21:39)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. β Amanda has a two year old, two and two years and two month year old. How do you say that? Something like that. They're two years and two months. Yes. Yeah, that. All right. So this 26 month old only naps about 50 % of the time. On no nap day, she's not content to stay in the cot, even with her favorite toys and gets upset if she's not tired.
Dr Laura (22:01)
Yeah, they are 26 months old.
Fallon Cook (22:23)
do we have any guidance on how to implement quiet time for days when she doesn't nap? that's interesting. Hmm. What do you reckon?
Dr Laura (22:29)
Yeah,
is an interesting one. So, look, we generally, as we were just describing earlier on in the piece, would say, go cold turkey and get rid of the nap. your toddler is only having a nap half the time. Well, this is where a little bit of nuance comes in. So, Amanda, if your toddler is having a nap only half of the time and the nights are still OK, she's going to bed easily. She's sleeping well overnight. She's not starting the day early.
Fallon Cook (22:42)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (22:58)
then you could probably carry on just doing naps half the time. What usually begins to happen is when toddlers are having naps on some days and not others, then the nights start to get a little bit wobbly. And then we would say, really, we need to go cold turkey. And that may be, again, cold turkey. If you're
Fallon Cook (23:11)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (23:22)
50 % of the time that nap is really long, like let's say it's two hours, 50 % of the time, we could look at trying to bring in a nap every day, but shortening it so that each day it's just as one sleep cycle, for example, and then we see if we can hold on for onto it for a bit longer. But if it's already and that 50 % of the time that she's having a nap, it's already only very short and the nights fall over, I will just be looking at dropping it. β
Fallon Cook (23:33)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (23:50)
On the day, so let's assume that the nights are okay. β And the naps that she still has are quite short. I would be thinking about β ideally popping her into the cot and if she's not asleep within let's say half an hour, getting her up, rather than trying to leave her in the cot not sleeping. We want her to have a really strong association between the cot and sleeping.
We don't really want toddlers to be in their cot playing because then that can really start to erode that association that they have between sleep and their cot. So I wouldn't be trying to keep her in there. So I'd have a period of time that you feel that you would leave her in there for. Look, maybe half an hour is actually too long for a two year old. It might be just if she's not asleep within 20 minutes for her nap, then get her up.
Fallon Cook (24:27)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (24:46)
And then think about having just some quiet time on the couch together where you read some books. You could have a basket of quiet time activities. It could be colouring, could be books, could be soft toys, could be watching a show that she loves on TV just for half an hour. And then once that time is over saying, okay, now we can carry on with the rest of our day. What do you think?
Fallon Cook (25:14)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (25:16)
Fallon. feel like I did this massive whiz around, dropping naps for toddlers. β
Fallon Cook (25:20)
Covered off every base. No,
I think it's really good advice. I think when they're, if they're not going to nap, they want physical rest. reading, you know, some parents will dim the lights and put on some really calming music. So it's really clear to the toddler that, this is when we have that quiet time. β And it can become a really special time of day. So yeah, no, I think your advice is spot on Laura. β So we move on to Sophie.
Dr Laura (25:38)
Mm.
Okay, on to
Sophie. So Sophie has a 24 month old who is breastfed to sleep and throughout the night. She used to just have the two wakes overnight for fees, but recently she's been waking four times a night. Her nap is just for 10 minutes and bedtimes around 10 past eight. She used to have a 10 hour sleep need but Sophie thinks it may have dropped to nine and a half hours.
She describes her toddler as being happy during the day, sometimes gets a little bit drowsy at dinner. So Sophie asks, do some toddlers really only need nine to nine and a half hours of sleep for 24 hours? Should she stick to adjusting the daily rhythm before night weaning? Are there risks from high sleep pressure? And how should she log quick?
breastfeed wakings in the sleep diary. I wonder if Sophie is thinking about booking a coaching call. β
Fallon Cook (26:42)
Hmm
Yeah,
yep. So these are really great questions. There's a bit there to unpack. So first of all, yes, some toddlers will only need nine to nine and a half hours of sleep can be totally normal for them. And certainly Sophie describes exactly what I want to hear, which is that she's happy during the daytime. She's sometimes a bit tired at dinner time, but that's really normal. Like most toddlers, most adults actually, I'm pretty bloody tired by dinner time. So it can be pretty normal to have a bit of a dip and be a bit grumpier around that.
Dr Laura (26:50)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (27:15)
time. So I would feel pretty confident that you've got a toddler who just needs about nine and a half hours of sleep. Should she adjust the daily rhythm further before night weaning? Just make sure that you are really sticking to that total sleep needs. whatever. Yeah, I'd be if it is nine and a half hours, the average and not nine hours, then decide what nine and a half hour period overnight will you allow her to sleep so it could be
Dr Laura (27:21)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (27:44)
an 8.30 PM bedtime and a 6 AM wake up and then just really stick to that so that you're ensuring that her sleep pressure is staying high enough every night. Because when you go to stop those night feeds, it's going to be really tricky because this is a child who's had two years of feeding to sleep. So she's probably not going to go peacefully into this new transition. β She's probably going to have some big feelings about the change. So we just want to make sure that we're not trying to make those big changes when she's not tired enough or we're going to have a big battle on our hands.
Dr Laura (27:48)
Mmm.
you
No. Yes!
Yeah.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (28:15)
so just
hold that. often say to parents, it's like you want to have a framework for sleep that you hold in place that keeps the sleep pressure there whilst you're making those other changes. β are there risks from high sleep pressure? β generally no. I mean, if you were constantly sleep depriving a child, β that's not good for them, of course, but you're certainly not doing that. You've got a toddler who's happy and fine during the daytime. If you'd said that they were grumpy all day long, I'd be
Dr Laura (28:24)
Mmm.
Mm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (28:43)
worried that yeah, the risk would be that your child might be more likely to have an accident, to trip over, be clumsy, those sorts of things. But I don't think that that's an issue here. Should she log the quick breastfeed wakings in the sleep diary? Yes, I would. Particularly if you are going to see us for an appointment, we will want to see, when we look at a diary, it's really important for us to see the pattern of night wakes across the night.
Dr Laura (28:44)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (29:07)
So my parents are going, I didn't track night wakes cause they're just all over the place. And I'm like, no, no, no. I want to see the all over the place. That tells me so much information. β so do log them in the sleep diary. β you know, that is really important. β and I'm guessing that Sophie yet is moving towards that point where she's going to work on other ways of settling her toddler to sleep without feeding. And I would just say.
Dr Laura (29:13)
Yes.
Mm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (29:31)
be really strong once you decide to make that decision, you're to be there for your toddler. They are going to have really big emotions β about this change. Actually, the Nightwaking Masterclass will give you some great tips on how to manage this and how to think through that process. β She's allowed to have really big strong feelings about this change. β That's really normal and that's what we would expect. And your role, Sophie, is going to be to be, you know, her best support to give her
Dr Laura (29:49)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (30:00)
all the support and love she needs to feel secure. She moves through that big change. And you'll navigate that together and you'll come out of it stronger than ever because she'll understand that, my mom is so here for me when things are tricky. β She helps me navigate through those things so that I learn new ways of doing things. And that can actually, even though it doesn't feel particularly beautiful in the moment, when you're through the other side of it, it will. And you'll be really proud of yourself and you'll be proud of your daughter as well for getting through that.
Dr Laura (30:05)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hahaha.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (30:30)
so yeah, there's lots, lots to do there, Sophie, but I'm sure you're going to do a terrific job. And if you do need some support, we're totally here for that. Would you add anything, Laura?
Dr Laura (30:33)
Mmm.
Mm. Great.
Now, just in terms of practicalities of logging the breastfeeds in the β sleep diary, Sophie, if you're using the β Excel version, β it may be, of course, it only allows 15 minute increments. If those wakes aren't quite 15 minutes, then you might β just log the time that they happen at.
for 15 minutes. then if you're having a coaching call with us, letting us know that those feeds actually only took five minutes or 10 minutes, whatever it was overnight. So we can still then see when the wakes happen. But then we can adjust or you as well can adjust the total sleep time. You know, it might say that that's, what would that be an hour in total of wakes overnight, but you might know actually it's more like just half an hour, for example.
And so you would adjust the calculation for the total amount of sleep that day up for an extra half an hour. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (31:34)
Mmm.
Hmm. And one thing
quickly too, is if you're going to be dropping the feed to sleep, it might be time to drop the 10 minute day nap. It's not a full sleep cycle. β and if you just want to harness every ounce of sleep pressure you can, then we probably don't want her to have a 10 minute nap where that sleep pressure would dip a little bit. β just something to think about. You might think, no way. She really needs it. And that's totally fine if she does. β but if you feel like she could go without it, I would go all in. Hmm. Good.
Dr Laura (31:53)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah good. Yeah Alex.
Fallon Cook (32:12)
Alex next, so Alex
has a five and a half month old who started sleeping better after using the quick fade approach. Um, and it only took 24 hours. So wow, good job. That's great. Um, however, Alex says, um, they're, um, five and a half month old now wakes frequently after 10 PM and is inconsolable and less co-sleeping from 1 AM.
She has a 12 and a half hour β sleep need and has four 30 minute cat naps each day. And so far just hasn't been able to do any longer naps. So Alex asks, do all naps need to be in the cot and at similar times? She does a mixture of pram, carrier, cot and contact naps at roughly similar times. Should they persist with trying to stretch one nap longer?
Is it worth just sticking to the cot settling approach all night, even when she's having a bad night and just keep pushing the sleep pressure the next day so that the following night might be better? Great questions. Love this. I think this is a real common struggle for parents.
Dr Laura (33:12)
Hmm. They are really good questions. Yes.
Right. So your little one is five and a half months old and still having the four naps a day. I would say this is a point at which we actually say at nearing six months, even though your little one is still catnapping, let's try to move them towards just the three.
catnaps a day, because I think the sleep pressure is just so, it's just not quite high enough now. At the, at the start of the night. They sound really bad. And that being inconsolable from 10 until one and then co sleeping is just, yeah, I think the sleep pressure is just not quite high enough.
Fallon Cook (33:42)
Hmm.
No, those overnights
Dr Laura (34:06)
Your little one is managing to do a nice long stretch of sleep from bedtime until 10. And then that sleep pressure is just falling off a cliff β and just unable to maintain their sleep. And then you're also needing to co-sleep when previously you weren't needing to do that. So I would say move to three naps.
Fallon Cook (34:16)
Yep.
Dr Laura (34:33)
You may find that one of those naps does become longer. One of the naps might become an hour in duration, but I think at this point we don't really push for that. If it's just three half an hour naps initially, so be it. β I think that it's really going to be key to stretch that β last wake window a bit longer. β And if there's some days where it's just three 30 minute naps.
So be it. And we may find that after a few days or a week, one longer nap starts to come to the fore. I think β that's great that your little one is napping at roughly similar times during the day. We're always just thinking about the total number of naps and that rough β nap allowance and the exact
time doesn't have to be really specific or really rigid. So if they're at similar times, that's good enough, Alex. And I would probably be erring towards pram and cot maps as you begin to work on cot settling again. So steering clear of carrier and contact maps if you can. And then, yep.
β sticking to it. So get that timing right first work towards three naps for three naps a day for maybe three or four days, and then start the quick fade again at nighttime. β And absolutely even if that first night is really tricky, β wake your little one up at your set wake up time in the morning and β use that same settling approach for any cot settles the next day do some of those naps in the pram or the
hard just to get you out and about, take the pressure off yourself and then off you go again that night again and know that after a few days it all starts to come together like it did for you before Alex.
Fallon Cook (36:39)
Yeah, that's such good advice. I think Alex probably really resonated with what we spoke about earlier in the episode where sometimes the nights are so tricky that the thought of dropping a nap is horrifying, but it's actually what really has to happen. So I'm sure Alex's baby is plenty tired enough during the daytime to think, okay, they need four naps. You know, how are they going to make it through? That's because the nights are so tricky. β but if they have four naps,
Dr Laura (36:51)
Yes!
Yes.
Fallon Cook (37:05)
They have another tricky night and it's just gonna keep going. So be really, really brave, Alex. Yeah, be really, really brave. Jump in, make sure you've got some support around you when you're making these timing changes. You want lots of distractions for your little one to help them get through. Yeah, and I absolutely agree with you, Laura. I think at this age, five and a half months, they can be really easily confused.
Dr Laura (37:06)
Yes, goes round and round. Yeah.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (37:28)
So if we sometimes do a contact nap or a carrier nap and other times we settle in the cot and sometimes there's co-sleeping, they just, β you know, when you do go to settle them in the cot, they're like, what are you doing? Like, I want one of those other ways. It's way nicer. β why can't I have that now? And often they escalate and escalate thinking, if I get cranky enough, mom probably, β you know, get me out of here or dad will get me out of here.
Dr Laura (37:39)
Yes.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (37:51)
So
if you are really committed to cot settling, not everyone is of course, but if that's what your goal is Alex, I would just go all in, make the timing changes all in on cot settling, all the pram or the car nap as needed. And often at this age, they adapt really quickly. We're talking two or three days with just settling in the cot and they've got it, they're off and away. So given the past experience Alex described to where they adapted really quickly last time, they'll adapt quickly again this time.
Dr Laura (38:10)
Mmm. Yeah.
Yeah,
Fallon Cook (38:21)
Yeah. Good luck, Alex. And if you
Dr Laura (38:22)
great.
Fallon Cook (38:22)
need a hand, yeah, could be a good one for a coaching call. If you're finding it really tough.
Dr Laura (38:25)
Mmm.
So we've got a question from Michaela who has a 14 week old as well as a toddler. Oh, you're right in the thick of it Michaela. And Michaela is keen to set up better sleep habits early for her baby and has just begun settling in the cot, the pram or the car instead of having contact naps.
And she's using what sounds a little bit like the quick tapered approach where she's patting and shushing and then picking up, putting down when calm. She's and her baby is now settling with this support, but only managing one sleep cycle during the day. So Michaela asks, will her baby learn to link cycles soon with practice? And she also wonders whether 14 weeks is too young.
this approach. What do you think Fallon?
Fallon Cook (39:23)
good questions again. So
look, I would say it is so normal for a 14 week old to catnap to just have really short naps. β I would say that's the norm really at this age. So I would not be worried at all that they're only having really short naps one sleep cycle. And they might need quite a few naps to get through the day β on just that one sleep cycle. β So that's totally fine. β Your baby will eventually start
Dr Laura (39:33)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (39:50)
Well, probably will eventually start to link sleep cycles. Some babies will only ever cat nap. That's all they ever do. Even as toddlers, it's just, you know, they take the edge off that sleep pressure and they're ready to power through. β but in all likelihood, yeah. There you go.
Dr Laura (39:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
That's right, like 15%. 15 % will only ever catnap and
there's nothing we can do about it.
Fallon Cook (40:08)
Yeah, that's a good stat, isn't it? We need to be telling more parents that the ones who feel really
worried that, you know, they're still catnapping. So chances are, β you know, for 85 % of babies, they will start to have some longer naps, but it's only going to happen when they're really ready for it. So there's not a lot you can do at this point to get longer naps. And β to answer the other part of your question, is 14 weeks too young for this approach? Absolutely not.
β That quick tapered approach is so hands on and so supportive. It's really just showing, it's a sort of method for showing your baby that the cot's safe. You're really well supported here. β Yeah, it's super, super gentle. And of course there's lots of cuddles built into that approach as well. So you've got lots of opportunities to really reset and help your baby calm down if they are really struggling with that experience in the cot. At this age, and Michaela has mentioned she really wants to get
Dr Laura (40:51)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (41:02)
the cot settling on track pretty quickly. And at this age, it's all just about practice. It's about showing our babies that this is an okay place to be. it sounds like Michaela is doing an absolutely wonderful job. And I dare say that when her baby hits that four or five month mark and has really strong preferences for where and how they fall asleep, if they're mostly known falling asleep in the cot, that's going to be their preference. So you'll be more likely to sail through what sometimes is tricky for families at that four or five month mark because you're
Dr Laura (41:14)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (41:32)
Your baby's not worried about the cot at all. It's quite normal and a lovely place that they're quite well adjusted to. So well done, Michaela. You're doing a great job. I remember having a toddler and a tiny baby and it is really hard work. So yeah, well done. Sure is. We have a question from Lisa here, Laura, who's wondering, what do we do when our three year old wakes up early?
Dr Laura (41:36)
Mm.
Yeah, it is. It's a wild time.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (42:02)
And when I go in, screams hysterically for 10 minutes that he wants his dad or vice versa. So if her husband goes in, you know, there's 10 minutes of screaming that he wants his mum. So Lisa asks, what is the best way to calm him down enough to go back to sleep?
Dr Laura (42:11)
Hmm.
Lisa, that sounds really hellish. So let's think this through. So what's happening really is early rising, waking up early. So things I would be considering is β whether your three year old is going back to sleep after you or your husband goes in or whether they are ready to start the day. So if they ready to start the day, I'd be β
contemplating moving bedtime a little bit later or changing the nap to ensure that his sleep pressure is high enough at the start of the night to help him sleep all night until a more reasonable time in the morning. β I'd be considering using some kind of visual cue for your three-year-old so that he's aware of whether it is time to get up in the morning. So there's some really great training clocks out there that the
β clock face changes color β when it is time to get up and bringing in a reward system for your three-year-old so that he knows that he's not to call out to you β until the clock face changes color β so they were bringing in a bit of motivation to keep him in β his bed until a reasonable time. If your little one is actually managing to go back to sleep when you or your husband goes in
then I would be thinking through what it is that you are both doing when you go in. Having a really strong association between a phrase and an action that you do and sleep can be really helpful for three-year-olds. when you do go in, when you do say good night to him, having a lovely good night phrase that you always say, might be good night, sleep tight, don't let the bedbugs bite or good night, I love you time for sleep.
Fallon Cook (44:17)
you
Dr Laura (44:18)
Whatever your phrase is that you say at bedtime, when you or your partner goes in, when he wakes up during the night, having that same phrase, using the same phrase, which is just a cue that it is still sleep time, not waking up time, and then giving him a kiss and then leaving in the same way that you do at bedtime and just repeating that over and over again can be really helpful. And if it is you going in, Lisa, you stick with it. It doesn't matter if he's screaming for his dad.
Fallon Cook (44:42)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (44:48)
He will learn when you show him repeatedly that when it's you going in Lisa, it just stays you until he goes back to sleep. And likewise, if it's dad going in, it stays dad until he goes back to sleep. Sometimes if three year olds know that they're coming, if I really kick off early in the morning, I will get my parents to change what they're doing and kind of pit each other against each other.
Fallon Cook (45:04)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (45:15)
And this three-year-old, know, three-in-ages, that phrase exists for a reason, really holding a firm boundary that if it's a mum who goes in, in the early hours, it's a mum who stays there until you go back to sleep and vice versa. Really important.
Fallon Cook (45:29)
Yes. Yeah,
it's not musical chairs and you get what you get and you might get upset and that's okay. You can be upset about it, but yeah, it's so important to just be so boring, so consistent. Nothing fun happens. We're not going to be changing who's doing what. Because given that it happens, no matter which parent, it means that this child doesn't really like, it's not like one, you know what mean? Like it's just, it's not that
Dr Laura (45:34)
No. Yeah.
Yes. It's not separation
anxiety linked to the mum or the dad. It's the same behaviour for either. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (45:58)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
It's just a, probably become a bit of a game to get really, really β cranky and see if I can make them switch. And yeah. it's hard though. Three year olds are hard and I don't know, my resolve's pretty low at, you know, I'm guessing this is probably four or five AM in the morning. It's just, you just think, my God, I'll do whatever it takes. Just don't hurt me. It's so hard at that time.
Dr Laura (46:06)
Hmm.
Yeah.
β Yes!
Yes.
Fallon Cook (46:27)
your
poor thing. So hopefully that will resolve for you soon Lisa.
Dr Laura (46:30)
Yeah.
So Jess has a nearly three year old who she describes has never been a great sleeper or Jess, must be tired three years in. β After co sleeping for about 10 months at her parents house, they've recently moved and transitioned him to a toddler floor bed.
Things were going well until he got a cold. Now he wakes between three and five times a night, screaming for mum and has full tantrums if dad responds. He checks repeatedly if Jess is still there as he's falling asleep at bedtime and escalates if she isn't. She's been trying to move closer to the door, but this goes on for an hour and Jess may end up sleeping in bed with him.
And to add to the complication, Jess is 34 weeks pregnant. So this is really hard. What do we suggest to improve things?
Fallon Cook (47:29)
it is tough. It definitely sounds like separation anxiety. And I wonder if when he had the cold, β you know, he's probably had some symptoms and might've noticed, β when I was on wow, there was a little bit more support offered overnight. Maybe that's, you know, a point where you've been a bit more present for him. And it's just fresh in his memory that
Dr Laura (47:43)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (47:49)
β you know, sometimes I don't have to just sleep here in this floor bed all alone. So I would say there's a little element of preference, but certainly a strong element of separation anxiety that's kind of converging to make this super, super challenging. so where would I start? I think, you know, being pregnant and quite heavily pregnant, β it can be.
Dr Laura (47:58)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (48:11)
really challenging sleeping beside a toddler, especially if they're constantly waking you up, checking that you're there, or if they're thrashing around having a big tantrum, like what Jess describes, can even be a little bit dangerous. But we really have to protect your sleep, Jess, and your well-being. So look, there's various ways you could go. Probably the first one that jumps out at me that could just mean that everybody's safe and might have some quick improvements to their sleep quality. I'd be giving some serious thought to the Guardian Gate approach.
Dr Laura (48:19)
Mmm.
Mm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (48:40)
you can
set up your toddler's β bed really close to that gate. Like it can be against the gate just about as long as it doesn't mean they can climb over. And your GS bed, you can have a spare bed set up right on the other side of that gate. So you are 30 centimeters apart from each other. But what that would do is it just puts a limit. So it's showing your three year old that I am here for you. I'm right here for you. You're okay. I'm this close to you. β
Dr Laura (48:48)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (49:07)
but we are going to be sleeping in separate beds. So you're not challenging the separation anxiety because you can sleep there all night. And that's probably what I'd suggest initially is just sleep on that spare bed outside the door all night to show him that, yep, I'm here. Doesn't matter if you wake up, I'm still going to be here. So we're bringing down that separation anxiety, but we are being pretty firm on that, you know, we're sleeping in separate bedside of things. Probably after a week of that, you're going to have a child who settles asleep pretty quickly and with not a lot of fuss because they realize that it's fine.
Dr Laura (49:15)
Mm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (49:37)
Mum doesn't leave, she's still there, it's okay. That separation anxiety has hopefully come down a little bit. And from that point, β when he's settling quite quickly there, I would probably then do something like parental fading. So you're just building his confidence with you taking really short breaks from being on that bed. And I won't go into a lot of deep, I could spend a whole episode unpacking how to do this, but I won't because the steps in Sombelle are really clear and we'll walk you through exactly how to do that, Jess.
Dr Laura (49:42)
Mmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (50:04)
β But that can be a really nice way to just ease the separation anxiety, not put too much pressure on them too quickly. But you're still making quick progress. β Sleep should improve pretty quickly. β But you're also keeping yourself safe and you're protecting your own sleep space because you're pregnant and you really need to be able to watch your sleep quality. β What have I missed Laura? Do you reckon that's about it or?
Dr Laura (50:21)
Hmm.
Yeah, no, I think that's great. I think
that's really, really good tips. Really good advice. It sounds like Jess has been trying to do parental fading, where she's been trying to get closer to the door. But her little one is just so alert that he's not having a bar of it. So I think trans like doing a bit of a pivot and moving to a slightly different approach is
Fallon Cook (50:40)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (50:56)
really going to be worthwhile but one that stays respectful of the very real anxiety that her three-year-old is experiencing at bedtime but is also respectful of Jess's need for getting good sleep because she's growing another human and β needs to protect that bump as well.
Fallon Cook (51:05)
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And you could absolutely, dad could do the whole thing, Jess. And I think that would be completely valid. Even if your toddler is not keen on that idea. β If you're just not up to this, go and sleep and you you're growing a baby. So if dad's available, dad could go in and do that whole process with your toddler. β He might have a strong preference for you, but if he's got his dad there, he's okay. He's safe. He's fine. He's loved and he will, he'll cope.
Dr Laura (51:20)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (51:42)
Amazing, such great questions. β And I was thinking as well, so many of these questions, I think those parents would really enjoy the Nightwaking Masterclass. So if you've had your question answered and you haven't listened to the Masterclass yet, go into Sombelle and have a watch because I've managed to include some graphs and kind of, you know, made it so that there's a few visuals in there that can really help as well. And yeah, hopefully you really get something out of that. And if you are listening in and you're really struggling with Nightwaking,
Dr Laura (51:51)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (52:11)
It's a great time to join Sombelle because you can tune into that night waking masterclass and it's really going to help guide you in coming up with a great plan so that you can finally get the rest that you're looking for. And β we know that it's good for parents, but it's also really good for kids too, to have good sleep quality. And if you would like to buy us a coffee, you can follow the link in the show notes. We love it when people buy us coffee. I think I need another cup right about now actually, Laura. So,
Dr Laura (52:18)
Mm.
Yes.
We sure do. Yeah, me too. β
Fallon Cook (52:39)
Maybe we'll wrap it up
there. Thanks everyone for tuning in.
Dr Laura (52:42)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
