Fallon Cook (00:37)
Is your baby hungry at 2am or do they feed simply out of habit? Not all babies will stop feeding overnight when it's no longer necessary. Some enjoy those overnight feeds a lot and expect them to continue for one, two or even three years. There are loads of factors that influence night feeding and today we're going to unpack what you need to know before weaning overnight feeds.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm finally back here with Dr. Laura Conway. We're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, welcome back on the podcast. It's been so long. Yeah. How was your big trip overseas?
Dr Laura (01:37)
Thank you. Yes, it's been ages. Yeah, I've been ⁓
mostly in the UK for about three weeks. And yeah, it was lovely, really nice. Slept in loads of different beds as we did a wild road trip around the UK, visiting friends and family. were up in Stratford and then down in Devon and then across at the New Forest.
Fallon Cook (01:54)
You
You
Dr Laura (02:05)
and a lot of other places in between so yeah it was loads and loads of fun yeah.
Fallon Cook (02:09)
⁓ Amazing. ⁓
that's so good. And look, we held down the fort without you. Our little team of practitioners, we've got Kellie, Lauren and Cat, who swept in and picked up a lot of your appointments where you were gone and took wonderful care of the families you normally see. And it was just really lovely. Gosh, I love having our amazing team now. You it was just us for so long. And now to have other practitioners is...
Dr Laura (02:16)
Mmm.
Yes!
Fallon Cook (02:36)
Just so wonderful. means that we can actually do these things. We can go and visit family or take a bit of time off. I'm sure there are other small business owners listening in who are like, mm-hmm, yeah, I've been there. Yeah, it is tough.
Dr Laura (02:42)
Yes. ⁓
Yes, well last time I went
back to the UK, know, even some of the families listening may know that I saw families ⁓ whilst I was in the UK and I was just getting up early in the morning or going to bed really late in order to see families back in Australia and ⁓ this time I was able to have a proper break so that was really lovely because having rest and recuperation is important. ⁓
Fallon Cook (02:57)
Yes, you did!
Yeah.
Yes,
Dr Laura (03:16)
And yeah, who would have thought? Yes. And at this time, I don't have any toddlers
Fallon Cook (03:16)
who would have thought? Yeah, that's awesome.
Dr Laura (03:22)
anymore. So I don't generally have my children climbing into bed with me. But I did have a awful case of bed bugs ⁓ with one of the hotels that I stayed in. And ⁓ yeah, that was a whole different sleep problem. So maybe we'll do an episode on bed bugs and how to get rid of them and treatment options. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (03:32)
Oh my god. You poor thing.
One you weren't equipped for. my god, you
poor thing. It's always the way with big trips, we lay out these really awesome plans, it's all going to be great, but there's always going to be a couple of totally unexpected things that just, yeah, prop up, make it interesting. ⁓
Dr Laura (03:47)
⁓ so revolting.
Yes, yeah. And now you've had an interesting
time whilst I've been overseas with all of your renovations and I think quite a few of your clients may have heard some banging and crashing. How's it going?
Fallon Cook (04:07)
Yes. my God. ⁓ they
certainly have. it has been completely wild. There are a few moments where I was like, why did Laura have to go now? This is the worst time to be down a person. But, ⁓ yeah, no, our renovations have been going on forever. Just forever. and it's not even, I mean, it's a big reno, but it's not like super big. ⁓ but yeah, look, we are finally in.
Dr Laura (04:21)
Yes.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (04:36)
the last couple of weeks of it. But yeah, it's just, it's just been ridiculous trying to see clients when there's, ⁓ you know, men on the roof, ⁓ screaming at each other, screaming obscenities at each other. Australian tradies know a whole lot of extra words that my children had never heard before, but they certainly know those words now. Like it's, it's just, it's been very stressful managing that and in school holidays happens where I had all three kids home.
Dr Laura (04:48)
Your colourful language.
Goodness.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (05:05)
⁓ we haven't had a kitchen. just sent you a photo before didn't I Laura at the moment. We don't have a kitchen. And so I have the only bench space I have is half of the top of my microwave. So I'm heating dinner for a family of five and a microwave with a little bowl of balanced on top for some salad. And then to load up the plates, I had to put the plates on top of the toaster. So it is just crazy. And my kids are like, why can't we have spaghetti bolognese? I'm just like, stop it.
Dr Laura (05:09)
Yep.
Fallon Cook (05:34)
I would love that too, okay. But we can't just wait another couple of weeks. ⁓ God, I'll tell you what, everyone's patience is thin.
Dr Laura (05:41)
They're lucky they're not just having
a box of Pringles for dinner. Box of Pringles and an apple.
Fallon Cook (05:47)
If I thought of that Laura, they probably
would have. There have been some really just not, not healthy dinners. I won't be writing a cookbook anytime soon. But anyway.
Dr Laura (05:56)
Yeah, I bet. No. And all the three
children in the same bedroom still or are they? OK, yeah.
Fallon Cook (06:03)
They're across two bedrooms. yeah, there's still plenty
of arguments though. I'll tell you what, the day I can finally put them in their own rooms, I will be very, very happy. They will be too. So yeah, it has been crazy. Anyone out there who has tried to live in a house whilst renovating it will be, yeah, they'll know the pain. We're right so close to the end now that I'm like, I've got to draw on every scaric of patience left in my body. And there just aren't many. There really aren't many.
Dr Laura (06:13)
Yes, I bet. Yeah.
Mm.
Yes. No.
⁓
Fallon Cook (06:33)
⁓ but yeah
focus on that end goal
Dr Laura (06:36)
Yes,
and soon we'll both be back on an even keel and yet we've got all of our calendars open for clinic appointments and coaching call appointments and we're yet nearly once your reno's are done we'll be back in full force so forever. Yes, yeah we have.
Fallon Cook (06:48)
Mmm.
We've got some pretty cool stuff planned, haven't we? Like coming up that we,
we can't really talk about yet, but there are going to be some massive things towards the end of the year and into the new year. ⁓ and we'll finally have the head space to really get into those things. Laura, I have to tell you something really funny that happened while you're away that I haven't even told you about. I got recognized in the supermarket of my tiny little town that I live in.
Dr Laura (07:04)
Mm-hmm.
yeah?
See you.
Fallon Cook (07:20)
I did! I was like, it was so... I told my kids and they were just like, wow that's amazing! Oh my god it was so funny. I was having the most stressful day right and I was not wearing very nice clothes. My hair wasn't done, I had some stupid ponytail or something. Just looking like pretty feral but that's what I love about living in a tiny town in the countryside is like, yeah who cares? You know it's all fine. No one knows anything about what I do. And then I'm standing at the register.
Dr Laura (07:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
Whatever.
Fallon Cook (07:46)
And I had so much junk food on the counter as well. The kids had sent me down there to get them snacks and like, you know, I didn't, yeah, I was just like, fine, just don't hurt me and I'll buy you the snacks. So I was looking at the counter and I was kind of spaced out because I was looking at it thinking, ⁓ my God, people must think I am the worst parent. Like, and then this lovely person beside me said, are you the lady from infant sleep Australia? And I was like, ⁓ yeah.
Dr Laura (07:49)
Hahaha!
Coca-Cola, dark chocolate, coffee.
Fallon Cook (08:16)
She was like, I listen to your podcast. And she had the most cutest, gorgeous little baby. ⁓ and I just didn't, I don't even know. I just didn't even know what to say. No, I don't know what the script is for that. I was so like, my God, I'm not in work mode. I'm in like, ⁓ feral house renovating sloth mode, in my work mode. And so my brain just kind of couldn't anyway. I, so I forgot to even ask her name. She was really, really lovely. So if you are listening,
Dr Laura (08:22)
⁓
Fallon Cook (08:46)
I know she lives in the same town as me, but yeah, that kind of made my day because I got to tell my kids and now they think I'm famous. So yeah, it was funny.
Dr Laura (08:53)
⁓ yes, that's amazing. Wow. I'm thrilled for you.
am. Yeah, maybe we're both going to have to start putting nicer clothes on in future when we go out in case we're recognized. I had someone I had someone the other day in the local IGA. She was standing beside me in the queue. And when I spoke,
Fallon Cook (09:05)
Yes.
Just pop on the work place before you head out the door.
Dr Laura (09:23)
to the person serving me, her head flipped around really sharply and she had a baby in the pram. So I think she recognized my voice, but she didn't say anything to me and I didn't say anything to her either. was like, what?
Fallon Cook (09:32)
Mmm
Hahaha ⁓
Dr Laura (09:42)
because I think I wasn't wearing anything very nice either. ⁓ And I do get told I have a distinctive voice. ⁓ yes, but that person, that listener wasn't brave enough to say anything to me. But I was a jet lagged mess. So it's probably just as well that he didn't say anything to me on that day. Didn't know if I was coming or going. ⁓
Fallon Cook (09:45)
⁓ girl, that's Yeah, you do.
Hahaha!
Oh
gosh, how funny. All right. Well, let's, let's dive into night weaning. think that like, I don't know, while you've been away, I've had a lot of parents with questions about night weaning and it really got me thinking about how this is something that really can trip parents up. You know, we're obviously thinking about sleep all the time, but, um, overnight feeds, if they're still being offered, you know, past the point where a baby is really needing them, um, they can be a really like crucial.
Dr Laura (10:07)
⁓
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (10:33)
cause of overnight wake ups. And sometimes parents do all the right things, but they're still doing some night feeds. And for as long as they keep feeding at night, the baby just keeps waking. So weaning the overnight feeds becomes a really important part of really getting more consolidated nights. So one of the first factors I suppose we're always thinking about in terms of when it comes to dropping overnight feeds is the age of the baby.
Dr Laura (10:35)
you
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (11:02)
⁓ Laura, do you want to give us a bit of an overview of kind of how many night feeds are typical across that first year? And that's one of those questions is very hard to give a definitive answer on, but you know, take it away. it.
Dr Laura (11:08)
Yeah, yes. So, okay, I'll see what I can do. So,
ordinarily, when babies are really little newborns, feed frequently 24 hours a day, because they have tiny tummies. There are some unicorn babies that might stop having any feeds overnight in the first one or two months of age, but they are quite rare if you have one of them.
then as long as their weight gain is fine and your health professionals haven't alerted you to there being anything amiss, the way you need to weight them, you don't have to, just enjoy it. But most babies, little babies will be feeding multiple times overnight every three hours, then it might stretch out to every four hours. So probably
Fallon Cook (11:53)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (12:05)
you know, once your baby is over a couple of months old, they will be able mostly to get through the night perhaps with one or two feeds overnight, potentially three if they have a really high sleep need. their overnight sleep is quite a long period of time. But then what we find is that ⁓ at around six months of age, as long as your baby
weight gain is fine, that's often the time where you start to introduce solids during the day. The number of feeds that your baby has overnight can start to drop. As if they were on two or three, then it might drop down to one and then that feed might fall away altogether once they're established on solids. But really in general, it's your call.
If your baby hasn't dropped their feeds after they've started solids and you don't mind, then that's okay. There's no pressure to do anything about it. ⁓ Some babies simply feed for longer overnight than others and do what works best for you. But that's just like you're in a nutshell.
Fallon Cook (12:59)
Hmm
Hmm.
Dr Laura (13:19)
lots of feeds when they're really small up to about six months it's very normal for babies and typical for babies to still be having one two possibly three feeds overnight but after that ⁓ once they're on solids the number of feeds overnight generally drops and it can for some babies at that point be appropriate for them to have no feeds overnight at all. How did I go Fallon? good thanks.
Fallon Cook (13:20)
Yeah.
Hmm. And I think this is, you did really well. That was very succinct. liked
it. ⁓ yeah. And I think it's, it's one of these things that gets, it attracts a lot of contention and people with very strong views. Like, and I just think all of that is just nonsense. And it just puts a whole lot of guilt and worry and concern on parents and largely mothers more so than fathers. it really is just what you want to do. Like you are the parent.
Dr Laura (13:55)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (14:10)
You get to decide on these things. ⁓ yeah, they're going to need to feed overnight, probably for the first six months, but then, you know, provided they're well and gaining weight, you can make a decision on whether you want to keep doing it or not. they can start to, ⁓ get all the calories they need in the daytime.
Dr Laura (14:22)
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Yeah. And of course, this is if you've been told by any health professionals that your baby needs to be feeding overnight, more frequently or for longer, then you would always follow that medical advice. So we're really talking about babies where there's no health concerns and who are developing as we would expect them to.
Fallon Cook (14:36)
Hmm
Mmm.
Yeah,
absolutely. So we see a lot of families in clinic and some of them are very unsure about weaning overnight feeds. And I thought, let's dive into what are some of the common reasons parents should consider stopping overnight feeds in their babies that are over that six month mark. And obviously weight gain's okay, they started solids, they're not unwell. What are the, what do you reckon? What are the things that make you go, I think this, this baby is probably ready.
Dr Laura (14:59)
Mmm, yep.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (15:19)
to drop the overnight feeds.
Dr Laura (15:20)
Yeah.
So if the common one that I see is that a family will say, look, my baby's feeding loads overnight because they're not that interested in solids during the day. And then I kind of go, hang on a second. Is it that they, which way round is it chicken and egg? Often what we see is that
Fallon Cook (15:37)
Mmm, yep.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (15:49)
babies and toddlers who feed a lot overnight are then ⁓ not hungry during the day. And so actually the feeding overnight is impacting them moving towards having good solid, good intake of solids. They don't want to start solids. They're not waking up in the morning hungry. They're not interested in that first feed of the day, let alone brekkie.
Fallon Cook (16:06)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (16:13)
And then parents end up in this cycle where the child doesn't eat solids in the day because they're not very hungry. So then they feed loads overnight. They wake up the next morning not very hungry. And that becomes a problem because ⁓ after six months of age, we really need babies to be getting iron from their diet. ⁓ And so I guess that ⁓ if we're just thinking about those reasons for why the parents should begin
Fallon Cook (16:14)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (16:42)
to consider stopping all overnight feeds if your baby's solid intake is being impacted. That is one of them. What else, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (16:51)
Mm. Yes. I think that's a really important one. Sometimes we see babies
who are, 10 or 12 months old and barely eating solid food at all because they're having, you know, five or six overnight milk feeds. And yeah, that's what it's a really clear problem. ⁓ And I would just say if the overnight feeds are contributing to excessive night wakes, sometimes it's really clear. Like if a baby can only fall asleep during suckling or feeding, ⁓
Dr Laura (17:02)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (17:17)
you know, and they're just waking constantly overnight because they're being unlatched and then put back down asleep in their cot. Well, they're just going to wake up pretty much every sleep cycle wanting that feed ⁓ or suckle back to sleep. And it doesn't mean that you have to stop all overnight feeds necessarily. It might just be that you need to reduce them and come up with some kind of other way of resettling them without that feed. So I'm always thinking about that in appointments is, this ⁓ night feeding kind of part of the sleep problem? ⁓
Dr Laura (17:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (17:47)
And yeah, and it's an interesting one because sometimes for as long as there's any overnight feeds offered, babies will just keep waking. Cause they're like, I can't tell the time yet, mum. Is it time now? Like, how about now? ⁓ and that can, as soon as you drop that last feed, they're like, and then they sleep through the night. Like, the feeds aren't on offer. That's cool. I'm just going to have a lovely consolidated night then. yeah. Yeah. I think that's, they're probably the real key, key things, aren't they?
Dr Laura (17:58)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, but I also think that if a parent wants to stop the feeds overnight, and their child is over six months of age is established on solids and their weight gain is fine. It's a perfectly reasonable choice to make it's parents choice. So if we're thinking about reasons to drop the overnight feeds. It's an
Fallon Cook (18:30)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Laura (18:42)
their solid intake isn't being impacted, they're not waking excessively, but they're still waking once or twice a night and you just want them to be able to maintain their sleep for longer. It's a reasonable choice to make. You're just done, you're tired. Yeah. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (18:51)
Yeah, you're just done with it. Yeah, you've got to protect your own sleep. Yes. And I
think the other thing that's really important for parents to know is that calorie intake is a lot like when we think about sleep needs. You know, if you've got a baby with a 12 hour sleep need, you're thinking, well, how much day sleep can they have so that they've got the best possible night's sleep? We want all their sleep to move to the night. But with calories, after a six month mark in an otherwise well baby,
Dr Laura (19:13)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (19:19)
⁓ we are trying to teach this circadian rhythm. Nope. All the calories need to go to the daytime. Now we're not going to have them overnight. And so by reducing night feeds, you're just, their body's just learning, okay. There's fewer calories available overnight now. And it pushes them to the day. It's not that they're not going to get the calories they need. They're just going to get them at a more socially acceptable time for everybody in their household. ⁓ and for a lot of parents are like, hell yeah, bring it on. I'm weaning night feeds as soon as I can. And that's perfectly fine.
Dr Laura (19:25)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, yeah absolutely.
Yeah, yeah. So Fallon, what are some tips for how parents go about weaning night feeds?
Fallon Cook (19:58)
Yes. Well, probably the very first one. mean, weaning night feeds, I know how damn hard it can be. Like it's, you know, if a baby wakes up, they're expecting to have a feed and you're like, no, maybe not. Maybe we're going to resettle another way. ⁓ it is super hard. So I would say I wouldn't even attempt it until you're feeling really confident that their sleep pressure overnight is high enough. If you're having split nights, false starts, there's something wrong with the daily rhythm.
Dr Laura (20:12)
You
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (20:27)
And if you try to drop those overnight feeds, you are in for one hell of a horrible time. So I wouldn't even try. I would get that daily rhythm sorted. So if you're a Sombelle member, you'd work through the Unique Sleep Needs chapter ⁓ to really make sure you've got a daily rhythm that is suited to your child's Unique Sleep Needs. A lot of parents will come to us in clinic and go, no, no, they're tired enough. I know, I know. They're tired at the end of the day. It's fine. And they're like, no, they're still, they don't have it quite right yet. We've still got sweet nights and false starts. You know, we need to take a little bit more. So I would.
Dr Laura (20:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
No.
Fallon Cook (20:56)
I would definitely be getting that sleep pressure just right because if then, you know, awake in the night, sleep pressure is low, they can push back for a really long time. They're probably going to be very upset. Whereas if sleep pressure is high enough, often they will drop some of those night feeds all on their own accord and move those calories to the daytime themselves. and then I think that factors into the next thing I would say, which is you need to have a plan for what you're going to do when you don't feed. So if you're going to go in and settle them in their cot,
Dr Laura (21:04)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (21:25)
know exactly what you're going to do to settle them and be incredibly consistent because your baby is wondering what's going on and you want to show them that you are the calm, consistent, predictable parent. You know, you're still there to give support, but they're falling asleep without this feed. So having that kind of plan in place beforehand is going to be much more effective than just randomly waking up at 2am and going, nah, I'm just not doing it this time. I'm going to rock and shush and pat and bounce. you know, like it's just.
Dr Laura (21:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes!
Fallon Cook (21:56)
Yeah, it's not gonna, not gonna work out well. ⁓ What else do you think, Laura? What are some suggestions you have?
Dr Laura (21:59)
Yeah.
⁓ I would be advising parents to drop one feed at a time rather than dropping them all at once. We want to give your baby's toddler's body to adjust to having fewer feeds overnight. dropping one feed at a time and usually we suggest dropping the first feed of the night because the sleep pressure just tends to be a bit higher.
Fallon Cook (22:12)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (22:32)
earlier on in the night so your baby or toddler is more likely to respond well to whichever cot or bed settling approach you've chosen at that point. Then later on in the night when the sleep pressure is a bit lower then they may push back a little bit more so drop the earlier feeds first and then if they're having two or three feeds just think about moving the subsequent feed perhaps a little bit earlier in the night. ⁓
Fallon Cook (22:42)
Mm.
Dr Laura (23:00)
every three days drop another feed and that is giving their body time to adapt and to take on more calories during the day and then you can be confident that when they're waking up in the night they're not hungry because they have started to eat a bit more during the day.
Fallon Cook (23:04)
Mmm.
Yeah
Yes,
yes, absolutely. I often say to families across those three days, maybe you're going to put in a few more items on their solids menu that you know they really love. Like those things where you're like, oh yeah, they'll eat heaps of porridge if I give it to them. Well, you're to have porridge on the menu quite a bit. So you're really helping them to get those extra calories pretty easily rather than trying some new unusual food that they're a bit unsure about to stick with the things that they'll eat a decent amount of.
Dr Laura (23:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (23:45)
And one other last little thing is I often say to parents decide when you're going to offer the overnight feeds. And what I mean by that is if you're say, ⁓ say you're going to drop to maybe you're just dropping down to one overnight feed, they've been having two or three, but you're going to offer one. You might decide, okay, I'm going to offer it if they wake up at 1am or later, you can choose the time. But by having a time in mind, you and your partner, if you've got one, when you are woken by the baby overnight, you look at the clock and you immediately know
Okay, yep, we can feed or no, we're not feeding. And if you're a breastfeeding parent, you want to send in the non breastfeeding parent to do that resettle. You do not want them to see those boobs. Okay, boobs stay out of the nursery. And if you're sharing a room still, might even not, if you've got the boobs, you might be the one who sleeps in another room for those few nights. So you just add a side out of mind. ⁓ Yeah, that can be a really good little tip because we want to try and make it as easy as we can.
Dr Laura (24:32)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (24:40)
on parents because it is a it's a tricky change and easier on babies as well.
Dr Laura (24:44)
Yeah, absolutely.
And I just want to clarify, I know sometimes in the clinic, I have parents saying, what exactly is an overnight feed? Does that mean the bedtime feed as well? And when we're talking about overnight feeds, are meaning that they will still have their milk feed as part of their bedtime routine. And then they will have a feed on waking up in the morning. But the over weaning overnight feeds, we mean any feeds.
between those two times, between your bedtime at night and your wake up time for the morning. So continue to offer the milk as part of the bedtime routine for as long as you like to.
Fallon Cook (25:20)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. Yeah, excellent. So another big question we get asked is parents saying, how am going to know though, like what if they're hungry? Like how can I feel confident that they're not hungry? Because if my baby's hungry, I don't want them to be suffering. And I think it's a really good question and with a really interesting answer.
Dr Laura (25:38)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. But what we know is from six months of age, the circadian rhythm matures and actually slows digestion overnight to focus on sleep. So in all likelihood, if your child is over six months of age, their weight gains fine, they've got no health issues, they aren't actually going to be waking because they are hungry overnight. So ⁓
Fallon Cook (26:10)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (26:13)
have that in your mind that their body is actually dampening down their appetite in the night. And they may just be waking more out of habit because or that's their way of going back to sleep, they would like to have that feed and maybe they like that feeling of being full. That's a bit different from the feeling of being hungry. Of course, if you ever unsure about whether this is the right time to do this for your child,
Fallon Cook (26:32)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (26:43)
Especially if they have had some health concerns, always check with your healthcare team first that it's the right thing to do and get their advice on how many feeds or what volume of bottle, for example, they need overnight. And just remember to drop one feed at a time ⁓ every three days or so to give your little ones body time to adjust.
Fallon Cook (26:51)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (27:09)
and then you can be confident in the night that they are not hungry. Of course you can give them a sip of water for over six months of age if you think they might be thirsty, thinking of those hot summer months that we've got coming up, they might wake up thirsty in the night just like we sometimes do as adults. So you can give them a sip of water before you start to settle them in a different way.
Fallon Cook (27:19)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
One of the things I love to explain to parents, because I think, you know, as adults, we can all really resonate with it, is from that six month mark and onwards, if they, you know, it's like for you yourself, if your baby wakes you up at 3am in the night and you get up, even if it has been six, seven, nine hours since you had your dinner, you don't feel hungry. You don't feel hungry, but ordinarily humans would, but that's your circadian rhythm going, no, we don't need to prioritize calories right now.
Dr Laura (27:53)
No.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (27:59)
we need to be sleeping. And that's what starts to happen for those babies as well. Of course, if there's a feed on offer, they're going to take it. But yeah, then probably not actually hungry. They're just like, yeah, I can have calories overnight if I want to. yeah.
Dr Laura (28:06)
Yes.
Yeah, I love that Fallon because yeah,
like, absolutely if it was nine hours during the day that we hadn't eaten, we'd all be chomping at the bit, ravenous, but we're not. If we've been asleep for nine hours, well actually nine hours, maybe it's morning time, but you know, if it's we've been asleep for six hours overnight, we're not necessarily going to be hungry. We wouldn't be hungry waking up in the middle of the night.
Fallon Cook (28:20)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah,
yeah exactly. think that can really help parents to, yeah, have a bit of confidence.
Dr Laura (28:40)
Yeah
and Fallon what's one bit of advice on overnight feeds that you wish all families knew?
Fallon Cook (28:48)
I think it would just be that there are some babies, plenty of babies, who will keep waking multiple times overnight for as long as there is even just one feed on offer. So this isn't every baby, but there's a reasonable number who end up in our clinics where the parents are like, I've got them down, yeah, maybe they're a toddler. I've got them down to one overnight feed.
but they just keep waking like six, seven times overnight and I have to resettle them. And then eventually I give them the feed and then I resettle them. And we can do all this work on sleep pressure. We can work on the settling approach, but for as long as that feed is offered, that toddler who's not so great at telling the time is just going to keep calling out like, maybe it's time now, maybe it's time now. And then, you when I work with these families and they're always very nervous to drop that feed, they're like, my God, that toddler is going to be furious.
But then they get brave and they do it. They drop the feed after two nights where they've resettled them. The feeds forgotten by the toddler and they're just sleeping through and it really can just be that. So if that sounds familiar to you, you've got a, you know, either an older baby who's approaching toddlerhood or a toddler, they're having an overnight feed. There's a lot of night wakes. You think you've got the daily rhythm, right? Just get rid of that feed because it is a huge motivating factor. And it's not just that they're waking once to have that feed. If they're waking multiple times.
Dr Laura (30:05)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (30:10)
The chances are you'll drop that overnight feed and within a couple of nights, they're going to be sleeping really well. So be brave. They can, they can do it. Yeah.
Dr Laura (30:16)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
And there's more information about weaning ⁓ and different ways that you can go about it. know, for example, with toddlers, you might want to think about reward charts or, you know, there's various other things that we can do to support night weaning that we can't possibly go into in just a podcast episode, because we do need to get on to all the parent questions. But yes, we have. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (30:30)
Mmm.
Yes, we do. We've been yammering away for bloody ages, but
it's been fun.
Dr Laura (30:44)
Yeah, so that was a whistle stop
tour of weaning. But know that there is more support if you are in this position where you would like to reduce the number of overnight feeds that your little one is having. And you're you've read the content of Sombelle, you've listened to this podcast, but you're still feeling a little bit nervous. We know it is a big transition point for families, then come and see us. We have appointments available, coaching calls.
Fallon Cook (30:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (31:13)
or you can have longer appointments with our amazing team ⁓ and they can come up with a clear plan for you for night weaning.
Fallon Cook (31:17)
Mmm.
Yes. And we've got, you know, an OT, we've got a couple of children's nurses, so they really know this stuff. ⁓ yeah. Amazing. All right. Well, let's dive into some parent questions. We've got quite a few to get through. There were a lot sent through, like there was an astonishing number of questions come through. So if you don't hear an answer to your question, ⁓ just hold tight and we will, we'll get an answer to you soon enough. ⁓ but maybe we'll start with Beck.
Dr Laura (31:28)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (31:49)
So Beck has a seven month old daughter who has a sleep need of about 12 to 12 and a half hours. She has three 40 minute naps from which they wake her up and she sleeps from 8.30 PM to 7 AM. Initially they saw a marked reduction in overnight wakes using the quick fade approach and from reducing the day sleep. However, after five days she began waking three or four times per night again. And they want to know why is she waking again overnight?
Dr Laura (31:49)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (32:16)
would dropping to two naps be beneficial now, even though she finds it hard to stay awake for more than three and a half hours.
Dr Laura (32:23)
Yes, Beck, I think what you have experienced is the instant effects of sleep pressure and devising a daily rhythm that is divvying up the sleep across the day and the night. So you've reduced your daughter to three short naps and that along with the cot settling, you saw some immediate improvements. But I think now what's happened is that your little one
needs to probably drop down to two naps. So you have that instant, almost instant improvement, then things settled with that, the effects of the higher sleep pressure, and then I've just gone a bit wobbly again, because at seven months old, I suspect what she wants is to probably have one longer nap and one shorter nap. And then she's also going to be able
Fallon Cook (32:54)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:16)
to find it a bit easier to stay awake a little bit longer than that three and a half hours. So I think that would be what I would suggest. Move her to two naps, one nap of 80 minutes, one nap of 40 minutes, and you will then be pleasantly surprised after a few days to find that she copes really well with the longer awake times.
Fallon Cook (33:23)
Mmm.
Yes, I
think that's spot on Laura. The other thing that makes me go hmm is a lot of parents will say to me, ⁓ we're doing the quick fade approach. And then I'm always like, what do you do it like? Have you got to the point where you don't need to do it anymore? Or are you still padding and shushing to sleep? And often parents are still padding and shushing. So for this baby, if you're still padding and shushing, or maybe you've weaned off padding, but you're still shushing, or there's just any kind of interaction still happening there, they're going to keep waking going, where did you go? Where's my pack? Where's my shush?
Dr Laura (33:54)
yes, yes good point, yeah.
Fallon Cook (34:07)
So keep working through, if you haven't already back worked through that point where you wean off the padding and the shushing. Once they're entirely self settling, you might also find that helps those night wakes to go away.
Dr Laura (34:07)
Yes!
Yeah, good point.
Okay, Yvette has written in and she's been using the Guardian Gate approach for her 25 month old, but is struggling with his naps. He used to nap for an hour and a half. But now he chases them when they try and leave the room. He climbs on them if they stay in the room with him and refuses to stay in his room when they return him. This is for his naps. They have skipped
Fallon Cook (34:35)
No.
Dr Laura (34:44)
the nap and move bedtime earlier on occasion, which he has mostly coped with. So Yvette is wondering if we can suggest any tweaks or would it be better for them to drop the nap altogether?
Fallon Cook (34:57)
Hmm. Okay. So of course you could keep trying, but there's always going to be a limit to how long parents will keep trying with that process. Some parents are like, I'm going to give it two whole weeks. You know, they've got the energy to keep resettling, keep taking them back to their bed for that nap. And eventually toddlers are like, fine, I'll have the nap. But if you feel like you've given that a red hot go already, ⁓ then your other options are, of course you could just completely drop the nap. If he's coping pretty well, having an earlier bedtime, maybe it's just time to do that.
Dr Laura (35:10)
Yeah.
you
Fallon Cook (35:27)
Or maybe we're going to have to have a period of time where we keep the nap, but we keep it short and we just do it in the car or the pram on the go. And it gives you a bit of a get out of jail free card. ⁓ because it's an easy settle. You just do it on the go. and then we take that, that stress away and maybe he does that for a few months and then you drop it. ⁓ so there's a few options there. It is really tricky with toddlers who yeah, in beds and.
Dr Laura (35:27)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Mmm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (35:52)
They really don't want their nap and they've got the ability to run around and create havoc. It is really hard. ⁓
Dr Laura (35:56)
Yes. Yeah. I think there's a really good
suggestions, Fowlan. And if you were to think of shortening the nap, just think about what his sleep cycle length is. And it might be it's about 45 or 50 minutes, for example. ⁓ And you would then be wanting to offer him that length nap every day. And, you know, then, yeah, give that a red hot go. And yeah, then once he drops the nap.
Fallon Cook (36:16)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (36:24)
You won't have those being chased out of the room ⁓ in the middle of the day anymore. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (36:29)
Yeah, yeah,
and a longer night might be really, really nice too. Yes. All right. Well, Tom has emailed in saying their nine month old son's sleep need is around 13 hours. He has...
Dr Laura (36:34)
Yes!
Fallon Cook (36:48)
two hours of naps, yeah, two hours total naps and about 11 hours of sleep overnight. After using the supported accelerated approach, he self settles for his naps and at bedtime. However, he generally wakes after 20 to 30 minutes from his naps, requiring resettling for 10 minutes. And he has started to wake 30 to 45 minutes after bedtime at night.
Dr Laura (36:53)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (37:10)
Overnight he can be resettled by Tom and has one feed from mum, but if Tom is doing shift work, the only way he will resettle for mum is with feeds and rocking and they're wondering what they can do to improve the situation.
Dr Laura (37:24)
Hmm, okay, it sounds like there's a lot going on here. This might be a family that would benefit from a coaching call where we could do a bit more of a deep dive. First up, I, as soon as I hear a child is waking up from their naps after basically one sleep cycle, if it's around 30 minutes, and then also having full starts, I'm thinking sleep pressure might not
Fallon Cook (37:28)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:53)
quite be high enough. And one thing you could look at doing Tom is to lean into shorter naps. So rather than trying to resettle there, and I know Tom from your longer email that he is able to be resettled after 10 minutes and then does another sleep cycle. But one option would be you just lean into two short naps during the day.
to try and eliminate the false starts at the start of the night, then he's going to have higher sleep pressure at night, which might mean that it's a bit easier for him to do longer stretches overnight before waking. Then in terms of the resettling, yeah, it's really tricky when a baby
Fallon Cook (38:22)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (38:50)
settles more quickly for one parent than another, particularly when that parent is going to be working ⁓ away from home. So I would be thinking potentially in the, I think that Tom might be five though, so in the times in the week that you're week or two where you're rostered at home, maybe if you and your wife do the resettles together overnight,
Fallon Cook (38:59)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (39:19)
so that your baby sees that both you and your wife do the same thing overnight. So you're doing the support and accelerated. So perhaps it's you're both sitting in the room on a chair or just outside the room. You go over Tom, reassure, come and sit down together. Then mum goes over, reassures, sits down, et cetera. So that you're kind of doing it together, supporting each other. Then it might be easier for your baby to learn that mum actually does.
Fallon Cook (39:26)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (39:47)
does exactly the same thing as dad and then when dad isn't here mum or it's not so new to him and he's not expecting mum to do something different that's potentially something to try. Fallon do you have any other suggestions for this family?
Fallon Cook (39:50)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah, I find these situations really hard where one parent's, you know, using the resettling approach, the other parent, because I don't know much about this story, but if the mum is really wanting to do feeds and rocking, that really changes things as well. Sometimes one parent really wants the self settling to happen. Other parents like, no, I want to feed them whenever overnight. If you're not both on the same page, I'm just going to be totally honest. You're probably not going to have much progress because
Dr Laura (40:16)
yeah.
Hmm
Fallon Cook (40:26)
for your baby, they're just thinking, well, I know if I get really escalated and mum appears, it's going to be a feed. so it just becomes really tricky to make progress. But I like your idea, Laura, of if there's a period where you're both at home, practice together, come up with a plan that you can both work towards. It sounds like sometimes he gets through the night on just one feed fine. So it would be totally legitimate to go, right, we're just doing one feed from now on and everything else is going to be.
Dr Laura (40:35)
Yeah.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (40:52)
a resettle, but I just think, yeah, both parents got to be totally on the same page so that no matter who's there doing the overnights, it's a consistent experience for the baby. And it might not be the right time now too. And sometimes it's just not, and that's okay as well. It might be that in another few months, it feels like it's the right time and then you're both ready to just dive in and get it done. Yeah, it is a tricky situation.
Dr Laura (41:12)
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant point. Okay, our
next question is from Heather. So Heather has a baby girl who's transitioned from only sleeping whilst being held to settling independently in her cot. That's wonderful. Yeah, well done, Heather. She says that however, the one thing that she still struggles with is biphasic nights. So bedtime is nine, wake up 730 and she has one nap for 90 minutes in the middle of the day.
Fallon Cook (41:27)
job.
Hmm
Dr Laura (41:42)
The nights start off well, but she consistently wakes somewhere between 2.30 and 4 a.m. for over an hour, during which time she is wide awake. So they plan to log her sleep again, thinking that it's probably sleep pressure, but they just wonder whether we have any other ideas to help with getting these biphasic nights to be a thing of the past.
Fallon Cook (41:54)
Mmm.
Hmm. Yeah, that sounds really tough. I'm just thinking about the mass of that. So 9pm to 7.30am, we've got a, what is it, 10 and a half hour window. But wait for an hour. So it's sort of nine and a half plus the 90 minutes brings us to about an 11 hour sleep need. Gosh, my maths teacher would be proud of me doing my maths on the fly. But you know, an 11 hour sleep need is low.
Dr Laura (42:12)
Mmm.
That's 10 and a half. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Well done.
Fallon Cook (42:36)
⁓ you know, it's not a lot of sleep to work with. And if you've got biphasic nights, it definitely is a sleep pressure problem. So that that's just exactly what Heather suggests is exactly what I would do. I would log her sleep every bit of us, you know, sleep time. Don't include wake up times overnight in that total sleep average. ⁓ and then I would come up with a daily rhythm. It might be that we've just got to start having, like, for example, if they're always awake an hour overnight, it might be that you move wake up time an hour earlier.
Dr Laura (42:37)
Mm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (43:02)
So 6.30 AM is now your wake up time. And it might take a week of doing that, you know, sticking to a 90 minute nap, sticking to the same 9 PM bedtime, but just getting up an hour earlier. And after a week, that child's circadian rhythm has gone, holy heck, we cannot have a party in the middle of the night anymore because we have to get up on time in the morning. So circadian rhythm just feels more pressure to sleep continuously. And then we'll start to see a resolution of those nights. ⁓
Dr Laura (43:13)
Mm.
Heh.
Yes!
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (43:28)
So I hope that helps Heather, but that is definitely what I would start with. And then if you've got, you know, settling difficulties, ⁓ once you've got that daily rhythm sorted, you're in a better place to go, okay, this is going to be our settling approach that we're going to use. Yeah. Excellent.
Dr Laura (43:41)
Yeah. Yeah, good luck, Heather. I'd also
just be double checking that there isn't anything motivating her to wake, but the fact that she's wide awake for over an hour suggests that it's circadian rhythm. Yeah. And I don't know how old your baby is, Heather, whether she's more like a toddler, but if altering the nighttime after, you know, giving it a good probably one to two weeks doesn't help. I would look at trialing, reducing the length of the nap, seeing if that helps.
Fallon Cook (43:52)
Yeah.
Yeah,
Dr Laura (44:11)
Yeah, good luck Heather.
Fallon Cook (44:11)
yep, good idea. Yes, we have a question from Kirsty who has an almost 11 month old who has two naps a day, one for an hour and 10 minutes and one for 35 minutes and just under 10 hours overnight. He now refuses to nap in his cot. So all of the naps are in the pram.
Dr Laura (44:27)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (44:32)
He manages five hours awake before bedtime and sometimes this pushes out longer and he seems fine. Kirsty wants to know whether to trim the first nap to 35 minutes to keep him on two naps for a bit longer or whether to make the leap to just one nap now.
Dr Laura (44:38)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so I think the main problem for Kirsty is that she's ⁓ because he's not napping in his cot, it's feeling a little bit hard. ⁓ Almost 11 months old, look, ideally would keep him on two naps for just a little bit longer. So I think this is going to be a case of just experimenting. Some babies do drop down to one nap at this age, but
Fallon Cook (45:10)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (45:15)
It's not quite even 11 months. I would let's do an experiment. Let's see if what it's like if we give him two naps that are just one sleep cycle each. yeah. Yes. No, that's right. No, consistently two short naps and then you can probably bring bedtime a little bit earlier. And because I don't think it's not that he's waking overnight. It's just that he won't nap in. ⁓
Fallon Cook (45:24)
But do that consistently for a week. Don't do one day of this, one day of that. That won't tell you anything. Yeah.
Dr Laura (45:45)
hot. And yeah, see if that helps. And then if that doesn't help, then I would think about moving into one longer map. And so dropping the second map. ⁓ I feel like I might have been as clear as mud. Was I as clear as mud there? ⁓ Okay.
Fallon Cook (45:58)
Mmm.
I think you did good.
No, I think it's so true. Some of these questions, it's like, well, we've got to do some experimenting to really figure out what this child is actually needing.
Dr Laura (46:09)
Mmm, yeah.
Okay, so Alice has an eight month old and a three year old. When both children are at home with her, Alice finds it hard to stick to the two nap schedule that works well for her baby because they're out and about for the toddler. And her baby falls asleep easily on the go, i.e. when it's not his nap times. So this might mean that he might only have a short first nap when he's out and about.
and then it's too long until the second nap. So Alice has been giving him a 15 minute power nap in the middle of the day to help him through to his second nap. And she's wondering whether we have any other suggestions for when she's got both the kids at home or is it okay what she's doing?
Fallon Cook (46:58)
if it's working for you, then it's perfectly fine. But if Alice is to say, our nights are terrible, especially if we do the three naps, ⁓ that's when I'd be like, okay, we've got to reschedule some of those toddler events and plans that you've got. ⁓ so if it's working, okay, it's fine. You'll probably get to a point where it won't work anymore.
Dr Laura (47:06)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (47:17)
⁓ You'll know when you get there, something will just be off and it won't resolve. Nights will get tricky, settling will get hard. Something will happen and then that will be a sign that you've really got to stick to the two naps. But also babies get older. So sometimes they just are more alert when they're out and about in the pram. They're not so susceptible to drifting off to sleep accidentally anymore. So it might not even really be a problem in the end when you really do need to stick to two naps. ⁓ It might not be so hard to keep the baby awake when you're on the go. ⁓
Dr Laura (47:17)
Mm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (47:46)
for the toddler. Would you add anything to that one, Lauren?
Dr Laura (47:46)
Mm. Yeah.
Now there are some episodes, Alice, where we have spoken about juggling a toddler and a baby. So check out our back catalogue. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I agree that if it's working for you, Alice, like Fallon says, then just keep going. There's no need to make any changes. ⁓
Fallon Cook (47:57)
And there's a lesson in Sombelle
Excellent. All right. And we've got two questions to go. Susanna is trying to work out her five month old sleep needs. She's having difficulties because between 4am and 7am they're co-sleeping and her baby is feeding back to sleep for sort of 30 to 60 minutes when feeding.
Dr Laura (48:19)
Okay.
Fallon Cook (48:34)
Hang on. I'm so confused. I don't even know what, what am I saying? It doesn't make sense. Hang on. She's having difficulties because between 4am and 7am they're co-sleeping and her baby is feeding back to sleep for 30 to 60 minutes when feeding usually only takes 10 minutes. Okay. Got it. Right. I just wasn't, wasn't computing in my brain. Susanna is not sure whether to count this extra time feeding as sleep or not. She also wants to know what are the signs.
Dr Laura (48:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (49:02)
when implementing the daily rhythm that suggests she may have assigned not enough sleep than what her baby needs.
Dr Laura (49:08)
Okay, so I think Susanna, if your baby usually only feeds for 10 minutes, there's a good chance that ⁓ they are sleeping for some of that time, that 30 to 60 minutes when they're co sleeping with you and probably ⁓ by the sounds of it just suckling on you, perhaps using you more as a dummy. So I would be
thinking that I wouldn't be saying that that is 60 minutes awake. I would be saying, look, maybe it's 30 minutes awake. Sorry, 30. Yeah. my God. It's just, there's too many questions. We're losing our minds. We're recording at night again, people. So we're always slightly more hysterical. Nearly 10 o'clock at night. I'm just losing the ability to make full sentences. Start again. So Susanna.
Fallon Cook (49:45)
Mmm.
Hahaha
Dr Laura (50:05)
I would be saying some of that is probably sleep time and maybe estimating about half of it is sleep time, then what you're doing is would, yeah. And then you're, if anything, you're overestimating how much sleep that your little one is having. So in all likelihood then to answer your next question, like you're worried that you're gonna underestimate how much sleep your little one needs, you're actually gonna be more likely to be overestimating.
Fallon Cook (50:12)
Yeah, that's what I suggest too. Yeah, yeah, half of it.
Dr Laura (50:34)
So I don't think you need to be worried that you are not going to be giving your child enough sleep if you're overestimating the amount of time that they are asleep during that long drawn out feed in the morning, which is, you know, would just be dozy feed sleep.
Fallon Cook (50:34)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, so your sleep
pressure is low and they're just suckling and dozing and yeah, yeah, I agree. ⁓ and I think as well, you know, with changing as daily rhythm, they're going to be cranky at first, always going to be cranky. They're a bit out of sorts, be like jet lag. ⁓ but that should resolve and then they'll be coping. Okay. So if your baby is having some happier wake time, you know, after each nap, they're getting enough sleep. They're okay. If they're not getting enough, they'll be consistently cranky all the time. They will not be happy.
Dr Laura (51:04)
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (51:20)
⁓ you'll know. You'll know.
Dr Laura (51:21)
Yeah, you'll know. Yeah. And you can always add more sleep. You can always add more sleep. Yeah. All right. Our final question is from Rochelle who has a three week old and a three year old. ⁓ Prior to ⁓ the baby's arrival, her three year old was sleeping through the night and napping in the day. Now she is refusing to nap at home, but will nap at daycare.
Fallon Cook (51:37)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (51:49)
and she also wakes once overnight and needs a parent to stay with her. Whilst this is okay when both parents are home, Rochelle's partner is often away, so Rochelle wants tips for how to manage her toddler's nighttime needs whilst also managing her newborn's sleep. A little bit similar to the earlier question from Alice.
Fallon Cook (52:06)
Mmm.
Yeah, I would be asking daycare to drop that nap.
because the inconsistency can kind of throw the circadian rhythm around a little bit. And it's going to be really important to have nice high sleep pressure overnight to minimize those night wakes. ⁓ And really normal for a three year old to kind of get their nose out a joint a bit about a new baby joining the family. And often they think, well, I know what I'm going to do at 2 a.m. I'm going to have some special time with mom or dad. And then they're starting to want you there more and more because they're like, well, that baby's getting a lot of time with you and I need my little bit of time with you as well.
Dr Laura (52:14)
Mm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yes!
Fallon Cook (52:41)
So often what we suggest in these situations is having some planned special play time one-on-one. I think I still haven't added it into Sombelle special play steps. Maybe we should just do an episode on the wonders of special play. Maybe that can be our next one. But just having dedicated time where you say to your toddler, we're going to do special play time now.
Dr Laura (52:56)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (53:03)
And it's going to be a time when there's no baby present. Your phone's not there. There's no screens on. You've just got a special space where you have that really engaged time with your three year old. You don't direct the play. You let them direct the play and you were just immersed in that play with them. And what you do is you announce it's starting, you announce when it's ending and you do it every day at around the same time. I often suggest to families after breaky do that every day, you know, once with each parent during the day. So your toddler learns that no matter what goes on, I've got my special time with my parent.
Dr Laura (53:16)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (53:33)
And that's my chance to get my feel of their attention. And often when they get that 10 or 15 minutes of dedicated time with you, then they're not so trying to get every ounce of attention for the rest of the day from you. They feel like their needs have been met and they're a bit happier to go and separate and play. And often what we see is that flows into the night. They wake up overnight and they're like, I'm pretty damn tired. So I'm not napping anymore. And I've had amazing time. I get amazing time with mom or dad every single day. I'm not feeling that need to call them in here overnight. ⁓
Dr Laura (53:46)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (54:02)
That
was my whistle stop, fastest anything tour of special play. Hope you're taking notes, Rochelle. But it is tricky. If you think there's separation anxiety and bigger problems, definitely book a coaching call or an initial appointment and we can really do a deep dive into that because it can be quite challenging. But yeah, that's something to ⁓ think about that could really help with the three year old.
Dr Laura (54:05)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah,
yeah, I think that's a brilliant starting point and hopefully both doing both of those things, dropping the nap and doing special play during the day ⁓ is really going to help your toddler get back on an even keel Rochelle. So good luck. Let us know how you get on.
Fallon Cook (54:41)
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, just a final note that our sleep clinic, I'm not biased or anything, but it is the most welcoming and non-judgmental space you will ever walk into as a new parent. So if you are needing additional support, we have an incredible team that is so highly skilled, so compassionate, so caring and so ready to help your family to get the sleep that you need. lot of people email us saying, what are your approaches? How would you do this? What's the, we are just going to tailor it to you.
Dr Laura (54:50)
You
Hmm.
Fallon Cook (55:13)
and your kid, that's what we do. There's not one approach, not like we only do this or we only do that. We do a whole bunch of different approaches, but most amazing work we do is when we are just fully tailoring to the family in front of us. So whether you wanna join us on a telehealth appointment, it doesn't matter where you live, if you're joining us via telehealth, we've also got our Hawthorn East Clinic, if you're local to Melbourne and wanna go in, you can see Laura in person.
Dr Laura (55:14)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (55:37)
⁓ but just don't keep suffering through, ⁓ sleepless nights because sleep can turn around really quickly. ⁓ you just need that bit of support to get there. ⁓ and just putting a little call out, please buy us a coffee if you're able to, it helps to keep our podcast going. And we really appreciate those of you who have bought us some coffees over the past year or so it's really, really lovely. ⁓ and if you're having a lot of trouble with night waking, I want you to go and tune into the night waking masterclass. there's one for each age group in Sombelle.
Dr Laura (55:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (56:07)
⁓ it's, worked really hard on it guys. Just go watch it. All right. It is really good. We've tried to pull together everything you need to know to get much better nights. And that's included in every Sombelle membership. So if you remember it's sitting there waiting for you, if your nights are feeling quite hellish, ⁓ go and tune into it, give it a watch. And if you need more support, we're a hundred percent here for you. So thanks everyone for listening in.
Dr Laura (56:10)
Yeah.
you
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
