Fallon Cook (00:02)
A parent reached out to us after seeing a video that suggested bed sharing infants benefit from stronger attachment to their parent and a host of other positive physiological and psychological outcomes. The video made this parent feel pretty terrible, like maybe they'd missed out on giving some sort of benefit to their baby. But what does data gathered from thousands of babies actually tell us about the benefits and the risks of bed sharing? Let's dive in.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway, and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, did you happen to see this video in question?
Dr Laura (00:51)
Yes I did. I do try to keep my head down and looking away from because it just makes my blood boil. ⁓ But yes I did see this one and I thought for goodness sake ⁓ I feel yeah.
Fallon Cook (00:53)
Mmm.
Me too!
Yeah.
Yeah, same.
Yeah. Parents send us videos via private message. Quite often they send us a video or like something, a post that they saw saying, Oh my God, is this true? Like, is this like, is there some science behind this? And when I see those messages pop up, I'm often too afraid to click them because some of them are so unhinged and the level of rage I feel for poor parents who see some of this nonsense is just.
Dr Laura (01:15)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yes! Yeah!
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (01:37)
Like it ruins the evening for me. You if I'm trying to spend evening with my kids, I'm then really distracted and I'm like plotting in my head why this post is so stupid or wrong, Um, totally ruins my day.
Dr Laura (01:42)
Yes.
Yes. And often they're
so beautifully curated and they've got lovely soundtracks and beautiful imagery. And it looks just so inviting and it's so seductive as well. Some of the presentation of that material. And then you just listening to it or reading what's coming up on the screen and my jaw is hitting the floor. think, poor tired parents reading this. And because it does look...
Fallon Cook (01:53)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Because it is so compelling
what they're saying. Yeah. And it looks lovely. Yeah. Even I can't help but look at it. I've actually banned myself from scrolling through our social media feed for the clinics because it just goes, they're interested in sleep. Well, here is all the filth of the internet for you. Can't deal with it. So I just go over to my other Instagram account where I just look at like nice houses being renovated. It's far more relaxing.
Dr Laura (02:17)
It is compelling. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes!
Yeah. ⁓
Fallon Cook (02:43)
but
anyway, so I'm guessing anyone listening is thinking, that obviously didn't like this video. What the hell was it about? ⁓ so in the video, yeah, it's a nice image of a child, you know, sleeping in their parents' bed. and it's basically making the claim that bed sharing or co-sleeping, I use those terms interchangeably, but basically sharing a bed with a baby is going to help you to raise a better attached child, a more resilient child.
Dr Laura (02:48)
No.
Fallon Cook (03:12)
⁓ and it talks a bit about how physical touch, you know, creates healthier babies. So it really sent off the alarm bells for me. And I, to the extent where, so this pairing he sent it through was like saying, you know, is it, is this true? ⁓ and I replied and I said, this is, this is a bad one and it needs a proper response. ⁓ so I said to them, you know, we'll do a podcast or something on it. And it really made me sit down this morning.
Dr Laura (03:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (03:41)
to plan out the podcast and actually go and have a look at all the recent scientific literature, ⁓ looking at bed sharing and what is it associated with in terms of outcomes for babies. And my gosh, it was very, very interesting. And there is quite a decent amount of research in this field as well. And some areas of research are pretty light in the ground, but there was a really good number of ⁓
Dr Laura (03:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (04:08)
you know, really strong articles, something we call systematic reviews, which is one of our highest sort of levels of scientific evidence that we have. But Laura, I think you've probably worked on more systematic reviews in your research career than I did. Tell, do want to tell our audience a little bit about why they're so great and why we love them?
Dr Laura (04:13)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so all ⁓ across the world there are groups of researchers and scientists who are answering particular research questions and they usually do their research study then they publish it in an academic article and other researchers read that information. All of those studies will have variations in how they were conducted in terms of the age of the babies, ⁓
the measures that we use to assess different aspects of child wellbeing and a whole range of other things, a number of families involved. And so when you look at them individually, it can be a little bit tricky to know which results look, gonna be what we know is robust. And so what a systematic review does is it takes like an umbrella view of
particular research question and then it scoops up all of those different studies that have been published all the way across the world and looks to see of the different of those studies what have they all concluded, what similarities and differences were there, which studies are high quality and which studies are lower quality and then it comes out with an overall conclusion that says of the X number of studies that have looked at this research question
this many hundred of babies were examined. These are what the general findings are and they normally assign a kind of level of confidence in that finding. So systematic reviews are when you are looking at research for any of you budding ⁓ researchers out there who like to go online and have a look about your research questions, you know, going onto the PubMed website and looking for systematic reviews in particular.
It's a really good way to get a quick understanding of the lay of the land, essentially, what the consensus is across all of the researchers that are looking at this.
Fallon Cook (06:30)
Hmm. I knew you'd be able to give such a nice description of systematic reviews. did better than I would. I think it's worth noting too that why systematic reviews are so powerful is that good science, if you go out and do a study and you have a finding, it should be a finding that can be replicated again and again and again and again. Like if there really is this thing occurring in a population, no matter how many times you study it, you're very likely to see the same thing emerge every time. So with a systematic review, if
Dr Laura (06:37)
Ha ha!
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (06:59)
you know, 99 studies found that A is larger than B, but one study found actually A is larger than C or I'm just making up stuff in my head now, but a systematic review is going to say, look, probably A is larger than B because 99 of these studies found that thing. So it can help you pick out any spurious findings that might just be a bit of an artifact and not actually, you know, relevant or important. So yeah, we love systematic reviews. are awesome.
Dr Laura (07:05)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (07:29)
So I sat down this morning and I, ⁓ I use Google Scholar rather than PubMed, but either of those are great. ⁓ And sort of started putting in terms like bed sharing, systematic review, child outcomes and things like that. And there were five systematic reviews, reasonably recent ones ⁓ that really dug into, you know, what are the effects of bed sharing? Starting with Horsley and colleagues in 2007.
Dr Laura (07:41)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (07:55)
They had their article published in JAMA Pediatrics, which is a very highly ranked scientific journal. They looked across 40 different observational studies and probably no surprises here, they consistently found evidence that bed sharing is associated with increased risk of SIDS or sudden infant death. ⁓ that association was strongest in parents who were smokers and bed sharing was associated with a longer duration of breastfeeding, but they couldn't really establish the rule.
Dr Laura (08:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (08:25)
direction of that relationship? Does bed sharing lead to longer breastfeeding or are parents who are likely to breastfeed longer more likely to bed share? Then really similar findings from DAS and colleagues in 2014. They looked across 21 different studies and found again, bed sharing is related to an increased risk of SIDS and a slightly increased breastfeeding duration. The third study I looked at was by Badoc and colleagues in Sleep Medicine Reviews.
Dr Laura (08:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (08:54)
One those journals I was always really wanting to publish in, but didn't quite get there. But I do love that journal. One day, yeah, maybe. And they sort of looked at a slightly different question, but they found that bed sharing with a baby was associated with increased night waking. So more often they're waking and calling out at night. Warmer baby temperature, which is actually associated with increased seeds risk as well.
Dr Laura (08:58)
Yes! One day!
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (09:20)
And again,
increased breastfeeding duration. So we're seeing like some consistent things emerge even across different systematic reviews. ⁓ Another study, Morneau and colleagues has published in a journal called Sleep, looked at 28 different studies. Bed sharing was associated with increased night wakings, ⁓ but didn't have an association with difficulties falling asleep, bedtime resistance or total sleep duration.
Dr Laura (09:25)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (09:46)
So that kind of implies that if you share your bed with your baby or your child, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to fall asleep quicker or have more sleep overall. And they actually concluded that, cause they looked at a lot of different factors, they concluded that bed sharing was not a determining factor in child development. So bed sharing really unlikely to have any kind of impact on child development. And just finally, another systematic review found that same link between bed sharing and...
Dr Laura (09:55)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (10:15)
longer breastfeeding duration. So across these systematic reviews, most of them were looking at various different factors. And I'm just kind of highlighting what was found to be associated with bed sharing and that increased risk of SIDS just keeps coming up and the breastfeeding duration definitely does as well. And there are multiple other studies as well that really clearly show that babies that share a bed with parents tend to be more wakeful overnight. Did any of that surprise you, Laura?
Dr Laura (10:27)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm, yeah.
No, it didn't surprise me. I suspect it will be surprising some of our listeners though, because when you're reading those beautifully curated posts on social media, you would be concluding that bed sharing is going to benefit your baby and that you must do it for their development.
Fallon Cook (10:52)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:07)
But I'm just looking across these studies, the reviews that you have pulled out, and the fact that there's just so many within a relatively short space of time, each of them has got a, they've each contained lots of studies, shows that it is something that researchers are looking at over and over again. So when, and they're not finding it, yeah. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (11:22)
Mm.
Yeah. And just not finding those links with attachment, mental health. Yeah. Yeah.
And I think that's something I really want parents to know. Whatever you decide to do in terms of where your baby sleeps, if you're seeing an influencer or literally anyone, if you even if you're seeing someone with qualifications, which really rings alarm bells, if they are trying to tell you that bed sharing is going to have benefits for your baby's wellbeing, it's just wrong. If it did, these studies would have seen that
Dr Laura (11:45)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (11:55)
time and time again, it's not for lack of looking. you know, there's just no evidence that bed sharing has some, it's almost like, I think some parents, you know, I've definitely had parents in clinics say this to me I wonder if they have to you too, Laura. They'll say, but are they going to miss out on all the benefits, know, of, bed sharing, all those benefits to attachment and how close we are. And it's like, no, no.
Dr Laura (11:56)
Yeah.
Yeah. No, no, because attachment isn't
built when you're asleep. Attachment is built by positive, responsive interactions when you and your baby are awake. You can't build attachment during sleep. And we know that high quality interactions between caregivers and their babies and toddlers is
Fallon Cook (12:34)
Yes.
Dr Laura (12:46)
just so crucial for their ⁓ development, their language development, their cognitive development, how they perform at school in terms of their literacy. And we know that children who have higher quality interactions and have greater exposure to more language, which means their parents talking with them.
more talking to them or explaining what they're doing, I'm hanging out the washing, and that's a blue truck, it goes beep beep. You know, all of those rich interactions are the things that are associated with better child outcomes. And there are studies that and systematic reviews of studies that have shown that but there are no systematic reviews to say attachment is better when you are
Fallon Cook (13:11)
Hmm
Mmm.
Dr Laura (13:35)
your baby is sleeping in the bed with you.
Fallon Cook (13:38)
Yes. Yeah. I think it's so important for parents to know that we were having a bit of a giggle earlier, weren't we, Laura? I was saying, it's a bit like with adult relationships, if you meet new friends or you're dating new people, me, you don't fall in love with them or form your bond with them when you're asleep. It's when you, it's when you're talking to them and interacting them and you're getting a gauge on, they responsive to what I'm saying? Do they care about me? Um, if I'm upset, do they?
Dr Laura (13:58)
No!
Yes.
Fallon Cook (14:08)
respond to me, you know, it's when you're asleep, you're unconscious. So there's nothing much happening when you're actually asleep. And yeah, it's I think we can, you know, apply that to babies.
Dr Laura (14:10)
Yes. No, that's right. No.
And
yes, and I think that we're not, we're not suggesting that physical touch is not important for babies. Of course, it's important for babies, but the physical touch, when you're awake and they're awake, and they're having that warm, lovely, soft interaction with you. And yes, there are studies which have looked at the effects of that on the engagement and
Fallon Cook (14:27)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (14:46)
bonding between caregivers and their babies. But that's when they're awake or you know when during the day they haven't looked to see well how much they haven't quantified touch overnight in bed and then look to see if that is what is associated with later outcomes.
Fallon Cook (14:53)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
Yes, and there has been a really great study by a wonderful researcher. actually got to meet her a few years ago overseas at a conference. Eiton Bilgen, I hope I'm pronouncing her name properly. It's one of those names that I always go, am I remembering that right? I'm terrible with names. But she did this really fantastic study that actually looked at measured attachment. So it really got into the detail.
Dr Laura (15:26)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (15:35)
measured attachment in 18 months old ⁓ and looked at those who had done some bed sharing in their first year and those who had never been shared. And there was absolutely no difference in attachment. And they used ⁓ a gold standard measure of attachment ⁓ called the still face. It was a still face paradigm was for the. the strange, yeah, strange situation test. Yeah, I'm terrible at remembering details.
Dr Laura (15:54)
I think it was a strange...strange... Yeah, strange situation. Yeah. Yeah, that's the one.
Fallon Cook (16:04)
Yes, which is the gold standard of testing, you know, how babies ⁓ react to being separated and reunited ⁓ with a caregiver. And it gives a really good sense of their attachment and whether it's secure. So there are some really great studies looking at this. And I think it's really important to know that when we are faced with so much conflicting information and it's a problem across every field of science. like the whole, ⁓ I don't know, just the noisiest.
Dr Laura (16:11)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (16:32)
people often aren't necessarily the most qualified. And I think we see that time and time again in many, fields. ⁓ Yeah, and maybe just thinking about sort of child development, you know, outcomes as well. ⁓ There isn't, you know, evidence that sleeping your baby always in their cot is going to result in better child development than bed sharing either.
Dr Laura (16:40)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (17:01)
So I know lot of people, know, the naysayers who might tune in, I don't know if they will, who are very, very pro bed sharing and think it is the absolute best thing to do would be quick to say, they think that everything they do is better. No, cot settling isn't better for child development. They're on a par. There just simply isn't really an association between where a baby sleeps and their development, aside from those specific aspects that we talked about, the SIDS risk.
Dr Laura (17:01)
No, that's right. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (17:29)
and duration of breastfeeding. ⁓ Yeah, I think it's also really important to remember too, not this has been super closely studied, but sleep is one of the three pillars of health and wellbeing. So if bed sharing is resulting in more night waking, then it kind of implies that one of those pillars is a little bit wobbly. ⁓ Yeah, something I'd definitely love to see a bit more research into.
Dr Laura (17:30)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yes,
yeah. So if you are seeing these posts that are telling you that your child's development will be better if you are co-sleeping with them or bed sharing with them, just know it's not the case. If you are deciding that you would like to share a bed with your baby, then
that's a decision for ⁓ you to take and knowing that there is evidence that bed sharing does ⁓ result in increased overnight wakes and an increased risk in SIDS, which we must remember is death and there can be other injuries as well overnight. ⁓ So I would be advising
you to check out the red nose guidelines on safer co-sleeping. They have a really lovely graphic which describes how to bed share but don't be making that decision because you think it's going to be better for your child's development.
Fallon Cook (19:08)
And I would just jump in to say, it's not that you're co-sleeping safely, it's that you're taking measures to co-sleep in the safest way possible to minimize risk. But it's never safe. That's the people who will just hang me out to drive saying that, but there isn't. And look, I think this really taps into so much of what we do as parents, isn't it? Like we're always looking at our children and we're weighing up risk. Like we do it all the time, whether it's choosing where they're going to sleep.
Dr Laura (19:18)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (19:37)
whether it's noticing that one of the toys you bought them has been recalled or choosing to do up their seatbelt in the car or choosing to do up the harness in the pram.
Dr Laura (19:44)
Mm.
Fallon Cook (19:46)
⁓ You know, these are all little things we do because we want to reduce the risk of harm to our children, but we all make a decision around what ones are important to us. I mean, for me, buckling up the seat belts in the car, that's compulsory. But you know, there were probably there was a time actually where I didn't do up the harnesses of the pram and I will forever regret it because it took a little trip to the emergency room.
Dr Laura (19:52)
Mm.
Yeah.
⁓
no.
Fallon Cook (20:08)
But you know, there are things,
there are things as parents where, you know, we, ⁓ we don't weigh up the risk as well as we should and we make mistakes. ⁓ and I think you've really only got to meet one parent who has lost a baby to SIDS to really grasp why it's so important to try and reduce risk where we can. ⁓ and I often talk about this too, that, you know, with, with risk, you know, we know that, okay, when you
Dr Laura (20:29)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (20:37)
bedshare with a baby, the chances that there's going to be a SIDS incident, fairly low. But what I would say to parents is imagine you've got a big bucket and it's got like 10,000 &Ms in it. And you know that one of them is poison. So if you eat that particular one, you know, it's not going to be good. Not going to end well. Do you eat any of them? Like would you give them to your kids and say, look, you should be fine. There's only one bad one. Like chances are you'll be fine. I mean, you just wouldn't, you just wouldn't do it. You wouldn't.
Dr Laura (20:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really helpful analogy for parents to think about whilst they're weighing up what they want to do in terms of where their baby sleeps. Yeah, I wouldn't be eating those M &Ms personally, I would certainly not be giving them to my kids.
Fallon Cook (21:07)
Yeah, wouldn't take that risk.
Mmm.
No.
I wouldn't, although I reckon my kids would be like reaching past me trying to eat them. And I'd be going, no, stop it! Don't be ridiculous! They'd be like, don't be afraid, mum. ⁓
Dr Laura (21:31)
Well, yes, that's yeah, that's right. That's we as adults
have our prefrontal cortex, most of us do that is fully developed. Whereas our children, it's not quite developed yet. So they just have their amygdala going one, one, one. And in a way, maybe that's a bit like, you know, if we're thinking about babies in the night, they know that they, you you have previously bedshed and it's something that you're moving away from.
Fallon Cook (21:41)
Yeah. Yeah, you can't speak for all of us, Laura.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (22:00)
Your babies are gonna be like ⁓ our kids, like Fallon and my kids reaching around trying to get a handful of those ⁓ &Ms in that bucket. They know what they want, but they don't have the prefrontal cortex fully developed yet to help them actually think through the ramifications of that instant gratification.
Fallon Cook (22:09)
Mmm.
Yeah.
It's such a good point. And one last thing I want to
touch on before we sort of dive into parent questions is I so often I'll see this online as well. People saying, um, totally valid parents will comment on things and say, um, Oh, my kids were terrible sleepers. As soon as I gave up and just co-slept, everyone slept better and co-sleeping just absolutely worked for us. I'm not denying that there are a hundred percent are parents who love co-sleeping and their babies do sleep really well.
Most parents, it's not the case. Mostly co-sleeping doesn't work well, but there are families who love it and really enjoy it and they want to keep doing it. And their babies actually do sleep better for them. I'm not going to deny the existence of these families. It absolutely does happen. And for some families, that's really, really helpful. What I would say is if you're listening and you're kind of weighing up risk and what should I do? ⁓ If you really want to co-sleep with your children, try and wait until they're toddlers, because that's when the risk decreases.
Dr Laura (22:54)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yep.
He
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (23:23)
And I know a lot of families, I work with families to say, we co-sleep with our toddler. It actually works really well for us. You know, we just want easier bedtimes or they're awake half of the night and what can we do? And we just work up a plan where they keep co-sleeping for as long as they want. Like I really couldn't care less if that's what's working for the family. That's totally fine. It's just that there are little tiny babies who are very vulnerable to accidents in sleep, to SIDS. And that's why in the clinic, if a parent has a little baby.
Dr Laura (23:23)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (23:51)
⁓ you know, they're in the have been co-sleeping or they're thinking about it. I'm pretty clear about what those risks are. So that at least if parents do it, they're really going into it, understanding, know, understanding the whole picture and that it isn't some magical thing. You're not sort of doing some magical thing for attachment. They're not going to love you a little bit extra, ⁓ because they share a bed with you. ⁓ you can have a perfectly well adjusted, well attached baby that sleeps in a cot that's safe nearby.
Dr Laura (24:03)
Yeah.
No.
Fallon Cook (24:18)
And thankfully that's what most parents are really looking for. They want their babies to be happy and content in their cot, safe and sound so everybody just sleeps well without that fear of something going wrong. ⁓ Yeah, but it's a meaty subject. I think we did well trying to dive into that quickly on a podcast format.
Dr Laura (24:24)
Mm. Yeah.
Yeah, it is. Yeah,
and I feel we're gonna get it in the neck no matter which way we go because the haters will come for us but our responsibility is something that we decided was the purpose of creating Infant Sleep Australia in Sombelle is to give parents the evidence-based
Fallon Cook (24:41)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (25:00)
information to cut through all the misinformation online and some people listening might not like what we have just said but we are just presenting what the research shows and which it shows over and over and over again. Yeah and that's
Fallon Cook (25:05)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah, and it means that parents can make
a truly informed decision. And if somebody, so if somebody's informed decision is that they are going to co-sleep, that's fine. That's your informed decision. And that's all there is to it. And as parents, that's, that's what we do. ⁓ Amazing. If you've got questions about
Dr Laura (25:22)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (25:36)
bed sharing or, you know, I know for a lot of families, they don't bed share at a preference. It just happens one night and then they feel very, very stuck and it can be a very tricky thing to move away from. Definitely submit your questions or if you're not a member, jump into Sunvale because we have so much information about these types of difficulties. You know, that's what we're there for.
Dr Laura (25:51)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (25:59)
Amazing. Well, let's dive into some parent questions, Laura. And I know first up we have a parent who wrote in who actually wasn't asking a question. They just wanted to make us feel special, which was really nice. Do you want to read this one out?
Dr Laura (25:59)
Good.
Yeah.
Yeah, was nice. Yeah,
I'll read it out. So this is from Jillian. And Jillian writes, as 2025 comes to a close, I wanted to thank you both for the gift of sleep that you gave us in 2025. We started the Sombelle program and discovered your podcast when our son was three months old. He is now 13 months and has slept through the night most nights unless unwell or teething since eight months of age.
He has even started to walk up to his cot now and pack the mattress when he is ready for a nap during the day, which says a lot for a low sleep needs FOMO baby. Isn't that great? So great. And she says, as parents, we have also been able to get the rest we need for the busy days. We are able to show up for an energetic toddler and occupations each day that demand a decent amount of physical and mental capacity.
Fallon Cook (26:40)
⁓
⁓ wow that is amazing.
Dr Laura (27:04)
All thanks to you both and all the good work you do. The positive impact that your work is having stays with families throughout all days in the quite happy moments and through to the tough ones. It allows us to show up as the best parents we can be and the best versions of ourselves for our communities. Wishing you all the best for 2026 with thanks, a grateful and well-rested first time mother. ⁓
Fallon Cook (27:32)
that's so lovely!
Dr Laura (27:34)
So lovely,
it gave me goosebumps. Thank you Gillian. We're delighted. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (27:37)
Yeah. Thank you so much, Jillian. That is awesome.
And don't forget that you did the hard work of turning things around with sleep. ⁓ Parents so often thank us, but I think, no, it was you at 2 a.m. who went, okay, I can do this. You know, you did it. And what a gift to your whole family and to your baby as well. Sleep is so important for well-being. So, ⁓ that's terrific.
Dr Laura (27:46)
Yes.
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's great.
Fallon Cook (28:02)
Amazing.
Well how about I read out a question we've had sent in from Stephanie. Stephanie has a nine month old who is in the process of transitioning from three down to two naps. The main problem is that it is hard to keep her awake at around midday if they're out and about. This is making it tricky to keep her on a two nap daily rhythm. Do we have some tips for how to keep her awake in the car and pram?
Dr Laura (28:05)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Fallon Cook (28:26)
Unfortunately, they often need to be out so are not able to timetable their days to keep her either out of the pram or car during this midday period. ⁓ I hope you got some tips here Laura, because I this really hard. It's so hard.
Dr Laura (28:36)
⁓
Yeah,
it's really hard. I wish that there was a magic wand that I could wave Stephanie. At nine months old, just know that it's absolutely fine for your baby to be going down to two naps. So you're not doing anything wrong by trying to keep her awake so that she is just having the two naps.
Fallon Cook (29:03)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (29:07)
And yeah, often we do say, and Stephanie, I guess you must have heard us say it, and it's in the song belt programme as well, that ⁓ whilst you're in this transition phase trying to stay away from cars and prams, when you're trying to keep your little one awake is quite important. But I can see that that's not easy for you to do, Stephanie. And I know that a lot of our members are in rural or remote areas and
Fallon Cook (29:20)
Mm.
Dr Laura (29:32)
or they've got other children that they need to pick up and drop off here, there and everywhere. So you can't be, can't, you don't have that freedom. So I would be thinking about having a, some toys that are just for the car, Stephanie, that are quite tactile for your nine month old, so that she can play with that when she's in the car, something that rattles, makes some noise.
Fallon Cook (29:32)
Hmm
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:01)
playing some upbeat songs that you're singing along to in the car if you can. Likewise in the pram, having the pram upright, making sure that they're not too snug and cosy, as in don't put the blanket ⁓ over them so that they are feeling like, that's a sleep association. If they have a dummy, maybe don't give them the dummy whilst they're in the pram and you are taking them for the walk.
Fallon Cook (30:08)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (30:32)
trying to minimize
any sleep associations essentially in those times. Yeah, what were you going to add there, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (30:37)
yeah. Definitely.
Well,
just novelty, like often, I think for these situations, it's giving them something really unexpected. And it might not even be a toy. Like I know I used to do this with my kids. I would get an empty milk carton and just do the lid up really tight and give that to them. And they'd be like, my God, I've never held this before. This is a mom and dad item that they would never give me. And now I'm holding the magical milk carton and they're just like, wow. You know, or it could be a jar, plastic jar that's lily the lids done up, or you could put.
Dr Laura (30:56)
Yes! Yes!
Fallon Cook (31:08)
know, sparkles and water in it or whatever, like something like that. Or like I ended up with a set of keys that didn't, they were just old keys that were washed and cleaned, that didn't open anything. cause my kids are obsessed with my car keys. So it's like, it might be something that they're just really not expecting to get. ⁓ yeah, that can be helpful. So good luck Stephanie. It will get easier. It will.
Dr Laura (31:11)
Yes.
Yes.
Mmm.
Yeah. Okay,
our next question is from have visa. And she opened her email saying I'd like to start by saying thank you so much for your educational program and podcast, which has helped me understand and navigate my son's sleep since he was six months old. So pleasure. Thank you. So have visa son is now 21 months old and has an 11 hour 15 minute sleep need.
Fallon Cook (31:47)
Hopefully.
Dr Laura (31:56)
She started to cap his nap at 45 minutes as his bedtime was pushing too late to 9.30 PM and he was having more overnight wakes. So now he's falling asleep around 8.15 instead. But daycare has said that the nap is too short for someone his age and that nap lengths usually are longer at daycare than they are at home because of all the stimulation kids get. Havisa wants to know if there's any validity in the comments made by daycare.
And should she just stick with the longer nap length and put up with the later bedtime and occasional overnight wakes?
Fallon Cook (32:33)
Well, my short answer
would be no, there's no validity in those comments. Our sleep needs are our sleep needs. Some toddlers will manage a bit of extra sleep on busy days without it impacting their nights. But I would say Hafiza, you've collected data from the subject. You know, know your child and you've seen that when they nap for longer at daycare, the nights are terrible.
Dr Laura (32:48)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (32:53)
So I would try and have a conversation with them about how much sleep your baby, your toddler needs in explaining they're quite a low sleep needs toddler and explain exactly what happens on the days when they nap for too long at daycare.
Dr Laura (33:01)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (33:06)
⁓ because yeah, we, we see this all the time with daycare centers. They kind of go, well, most of our babies, your toddlers sleep for two hours and they're fine. They have a great day, but they just don't see the night and they don't understand that for some toddlers, results in a horrendous night for those poor parents. So I'd definitely be trying to have a good chat with them. If they don't come on board, then it might be that you just adapt the daily rhythm at home as well and accept a little bit less night's sleep until they're ready to drop their nap.
Dr Laura (33:17)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah. And look at 21 months old, 45 minutes isn't unusual. So if they're low sleep needs, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Good luck. We hope that that helps have either.
Fallon Cook (33:40)
Hmm, especially if they're low sleep needs, like often that's all they need and they're ready to go. Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, Alexia wrote in, she has a 13 month old who has been on one nap for one and a half hours for one month. He has an 11 and a half hour average sleep needs and he self settles after using the supported accelerated approach, falling asleep at 7pm, sleeping through the night until waking at about 4.30 or 5am. Ouch. Alexia says they want to stop these early wakes but find it hard to push bedtime any later, especially after daycare.
Dr Laura (34:15)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (34:22)
Alexis is worried it is hunger making him wake up early as he doesn't eat much dinner or feed much after daycare. What do you think?
Dr Laura (34:31)
Hmm. Alexia, most children are eating quite well when they're at daycare, in general, because they well, we think it's because there's a kind of peer pressure where they sit down all together and eat together. So we often find that parents say, ⁓ I only give them a snack when they come home from daycare because they've normally had like a
Fallon Cook (34:47)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (34:57)
a proper lunch and potentially a breakfast and then the morning tea and afternoon tea already at daycare. So that might be why your toddler doesn't eat very much when he comes home from daycare. So I'd probably ⁓ not worry too much about that, just ensuring that he's having ⁓
Fallon Cook (35:03)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (35:20)
some kind of supper perhaps when you first get in the door before he goes into the bath or shower. I know sometimes when our little ones come home from daycare, particularly as they become toddlers, we think, let's get them in the shower quickly because they're really grubby. But even having a snack to have as ⁓ you come home from daycare so that you can be just feeling confident that your little one is getting some nutrients in them before bed.
and using a bottle of milk if they're still having one before bed. I would be thinking, let's go a little bit granular with moving bedtime later. Those wakeups are way too early and the fact that he can self-settle, sleeps through the night just shows us that you've done everything really well, Alexia. I would be saying, let's go slowly. Let's push bedtime to 10 past seven for a night. Kind of step it like we do for daylight saving.
Fallon Cook (36:12)
Mmm.
Mmm,
and then wake up at 5 10 that 10 hours later big dose of bright light. So yeah. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, too
Dr Laura (36:17)
And then, yeah, that's right. Yeah. And every night or every
couple of nights just move bedtime 10 minutes later. And then over a whole week, we would ordinarily see that shift happening. And that I think is going to be the easier way for you to do it, Alexia, with a little one who just gets so tired. Doing that big leap to an eight o'clock bedtime is just going to be too hard.
Fallon Cook (36:43)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (36:46)
for him, would say, from what you're describing. Yeah, do you have anything else to add?
Fallon Cook (36:49)
Yeah, I agree. And
yeah, just try shuffling the nap a little bit later as well. And it won't be quite as hard towards the end of the day then as you make those changes.
Dr Laura (36:55)
Mm. Yeah.
Good. Belinda's written in. She has a 19 month old son who has long had sleep issues. gosh. He has a 12 to a 12 and a half hour sleep need. He wakes between six and 7.30 in the morning and actually sleeps in until eight on weekends. He naps for an hour and 10 minutes and goes to bed at eight.
But he wakes at least once a night at midnight needing pats and shushes to resettle in about 15 minutes. And Belinda wants to know how to avoid these wakes. I think I know the answer to this one Fallon. I think Belinda probably does as well. I she knows what we're going to say.
Fallon Cook (37:33)
Hmm. Yeah, probably.
yeah, look, I would say he's circadian rhythm has figured out that sometimes I have 12 hours of opportunity overnight to reach my sleep needs. ⁓ it doesn't know that it's only on the weekends that that happens. So there's that drop in sleep pressure overnight. So I would just be tightening up that daily rhythm. Is it 12 or is it 12 and a half hours sleep need? Have a look at the average and then decide what it's closest to then work out that daily rhythm. So if the naps for an hour 10, how much?
Dr Laura (37:57)
you
Fallon Cook (38:10)
Sleep opportunities left overnight and then I'd have you set bedtime have your wake up time and really keep that on track ⁓ And then once you've got that rhythm established for a week We know that the sleep drives nice and high overnight Then I would be phasing out the padding and shushing to sleep at that point ⁓ Is that what you thought I was gonna say Laura?
Dr Laura (38:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I thought you were going to
come in a little bit more cutthroat to say that six to 730am wake up is just quite variable and probably just, yeah, and actually six. So some days he's waking up at six in the morning and then on weekends he's sleeping in until eight. That's a two hour variation. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (38:34)
You
Yeah, well yes it is isn't it? Yeah.
a lot of variability even for an adult, excuse
me, an adult would find that tricky, would have periods where we feel really tired and out of sorts. yeah, it's totally fine to tighten that up Belinda. ⁓ Good luck.
Dr Laura (38:55)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah, and actually, I would say Belinda,
you've probably got a really good little sleeper on your hands because despite having the, you know, up to a two hour variation and wake up time across a week, your son is only taking 50 minutes to resettle in the night. So I reckon once you do a little bit of tightening of that daily rhythm, it's going to make a big difference. So hang on in there, Belinda.
Fallon Cook (39:17)
Hmm you'll make a big difference.
Yeah, absolutely. Now we have a question from Melinda who firstly writes that our program has been the light in the dark sleep deprived tunnel. ⁓ that's so lovely. We asked for this on a podcast the other week, didn't we? send us in your lovely things. Yeah, they have. You've totally delivered. Thank you. Lovely people. ⁓ how funny.
Dr Laura (39:29)
Mm-hmm.
Aww yeah yeah we did and everyone's delivered
Thanks everyone. It's such a lovely community.
Fallon Cook (39:51)
So Melinda says that they've got an 11 month old with a 12 hour sleep need. He goes to bed at 7.30 PM and wakes around 6 AM and he has two naps during the day, one at 9.30 for 20 minutes and then one at 1.30 for 90 minutes. She's got two questions. He has false starts and wakes every hour until midnight despite being very tired at bedtime.
Melinda wonders if because he has just started to walk, maybe he's extremely tired and needs to be put down earlier. I'll move on to the next question before I jump in and answer that one myself. The second question is he wakes for a bottle at 4.30 AM, but this has started to creep earlier to around 2 AM. Melinda doesn't think he needs it and they have to wait an hour after he wakes before he will eat his brekkie. ⁓ I reckon she's listened to our other episode on dropping night feeds.
Dr Laura (40:23)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes, I think so.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (40:44)
She
says should they drop that bottle and help settle him in those wakes and offer breakfast on wake up to start the day around 6 a.m. They're going to the UK for Christmas. Should they wait to night wean until then no I'd get going but I'd make those timing changes first Laura. What do you reckon?
Dr Laura (40:57)
No, yeah. Yeah,
yeah, definitely. So false starts are usually almost always an indication that sleep pressure isn't quite high enough. So yeah, I would be and the fact that he's waking every hour until midnight. I mean, I'm not surprised he's really tired at bedtime because he's from 730 until midnight. He's up and down, up and down, up and down. Poor thing and poor you.
Fallon Cook (41:16)
Mmm.
Yeah, definitely
don't bring bedtime earlier. I think a lot of parents think that's what they need to do and it's only going to make it worse.
Dr Laura (41:27)
No.
Yeah, yeah. So I would be looking at that daily rhythm. I'm just having a look now. What would that be 10 and a half hours over night and then ⁓ an hour and a half for the afternoon nap is already taking him up to the 12 hours. And then he's got 20 minutes in the morning. I think he's probably going to be quite close to dropping down to one nap. I mean, the fact that he's probably not quite there yet, but I'd probably look at maybe
Fallon Cook (41:55)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (42:00)
evening out the naps so that that 20 minute one in the morning isn't a whole sleep cycle. I'd be thinking of perhaps working out what a sleep cycle length is and then giving him two full naps rather than that little power nap and then a longer one in the afternoon and I think that will probably help because then he's got more time to build that sleep pressure at the start of the night, Melinda, sorry. Yeah and do you agree? Yeah and then I think
Fallon Cook (42:05)
Mm.
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, two shorter naps.
Dr Laura (42:27)
Then he's also running out of sleep pressure in the night and he's wanting to have that bottle to help him probably have that nice full feeling to go back to sleep, but he doesn't need it. Like you say, he's nearly one and it's creep. Like we mentioned in that last podcast episode, sometimes those feeds start to get earlier and earlier, earlier in the night. And that's what's happening for you, Melinda. So I would be weaning him off that bottle. Now.
Fallon Cook (42:39)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (42:55)
so that you can start the day with ⁓ Brekkie straight away. All right. Now, Emma G has written in and said, thank you so much for opening my eyes to creating a unique sleep plan for my now almost five month old baby boy. With our first, we went to sleep school and I just felt that approach wasn't the right fit this time around.
Fallon Cook (43:00)
Yeah, I completely agree Laura. Absolutely.
Dr Laura (43:20)
On the other hand, I'd also tried a program that was focused on biologically normal waking, but still had very structured awake windows. Your approach is. Yeah. Yes, think so. Yeah, they do. Your approach has been such a refreshing and empowering balance. ⁓ Thank you, Emma.
Fallon Cook (43:27)
I reckon I know what program that was. Some of these words just jump out, don't they?
⁓ beautiful.
Thanks Emma.
Dr Laura (43:41)
So her baby's total sleep needs are around 13 and a half hours. The current rhythm is a 6 a.m. wake up, two hour and a half long naps and a third 30 minute nap in the afternoon and bedtime at seven. She plans to use a supported accelerated approach to move away from cuddling him to sleep. She's got a sore back, so that's making that hard. And she also thinks that then that it would make it easier for her to do supported accelerated.
She wants to set him up for success, so she's got some practical questions. I'll just read each out. One is that since birth she's been tucking a sheet in firmly to the waist and he started rolling, so she's wondering should they stop using the sheet? Secondly, should they stop using the dummy? ⁓
At the moment, they just use it to help him settle when he's in his arm in their arms, but then removes it once his sucking slows. And thirdly, should they introduce an extra feed in the day to compensate for reducing to one feed overnight when they start settling.
Fallon Cook (44:54)
Okay, really good questions. So, ⁓ I got really distracted looking at the daily rhythm when you were reading it out Laura. I was like looking at that going, how does that, so there's two, so there's a, it sounds like there's three and a half hours day sleep. So there's 10 hours left overnight, 7pm bedtime. I'm guessing this baby probably wakes at 5am or maybe a little after most days.
Dr Laura (44:57)
Mmm.
okay.
He's waking
at 6am. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (45:19)
6am, okay, so maybe there's an hour's
worth of overnight feeds. Okay, cool, got it. So in terms of the sheet tucked in up to the waist, now he's rolling. I probably would recommend phasing it out and moving on to sleeping bags just because they can get a little bit more tangled up in things once they're ⁓ rolling around. ⁓ Should they stop using the dummy when they start cot settling? it's such a good, I think we have a podcast episode on this actually. ⁓ It's such a good question.
Dr Laura (45:24)
Yes.
Mm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (45:49)
I think it's important to just make a call. Like if it's, if the dummies are lifesaver, um, when you're parenting solo or when your baby's unwell, they really, really love it and it comforts them. You might decide to keep it in which case they might not be able to replace it themselves until they're about seven months old. Um, or if you're thinking you just really want to get rid of it, it doesn't seem super helpful. I would just get rid of it now before it becomes a real, um, real strong sort of, um, item that they're attached to and get a lot of comfort from and start to really, really rely on.
Dr Laura (46:04)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (46:19)
⁓
As for introducing an extra feed in the day, you shouldn't need to. ⁓ You're reducing to one feed overnight. Typically what would happen is you would stick to the usual number of day feeds, but babies are pretty good at taking on more calories from those feeds if that's what they're needing. ⁓ But it wouldn't hurt, you if it's going to give you the confidence when you're ⁓ dropping down to one overnight feed, you're going to feel a bit better offering, you know, another feed in the daytime.
Dr Laura (46:37)
Mm.
Fallon Cook (46:44)
Just do it and after a few days you might find you can resume your usual sort of pattern of feeding and he should be able to get all the calories he needs from those feeds. The exception might be if he's bottle fed you might find that he powers through a bottle and still seems to want more in which case you'll just up the total amount of formula in that bottle.
Dr Laura (46:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's right. I'm not sure. know Emma sent a couple
of emails, one that was really long. And then she ⁓ listened to a podcast episode where we said, please try and keep your emails short. So then she sent a revised one. So thank you, Emma, for your dedication.
Fallon Cook (47:15)
Uhhh...
⁓
that's so lovely and thoughtful. Yeah, thank you. It does save us a lot of work. I'd love to tell you we have this huge team of people who review all the emails for us, but we most certainly do not. It's just us trolling through the world. ⁓
Dr Laura (47:21)
Yes.
Yeah, no, we don't. Okay, and I've seen where
we need to, we've got a few more questions and we need to get us ⁓ shaken. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (47:36)
Yes, let's power through. as quick
as we can. I've got the school run creeping up on us. All right. So Katie wrote in, she has an 11 month old daughter who has recently started sleeping through the night. She's always been a good sleeper, only ever waking once or twice. However, since she started sleeping through, she's also started having longer naps. This change has coincided with her discovering she can sleep on her side. She was previously a back sleeper.
Dr Laura (47:42)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (48:03)
She's also started crawling in the past month after working with a pediatric physio on strengthening her hips. And Katie asks, do I have a unicorn baby who has added extra sleep into her schedule or do you think there is something else going on during the day? She's her normal happy self.
Dr Laura (48:13)
Hahaha ⁓
⁓ Katie, whilst you're finding that she her mood hasn't changed, her behavior is the same, aside from meeting more milestones. ⁓ I think that just grasp this with both hands, run with it and love it. There are some babies that do particularly lower sleep these babies that do start to have more sleep the older they get. And you may simply have one of these babies, Katie. And this is why we always say
to all of our families that when you have created a daily rhythm for your baby, that daily rhythm is based on where they are at, meeting them where they are at. Once you have then used any cot settling approaches or that you're settled into the new daily rhythm and everything is going well, you then add a little bit more sleep in and that can be increased naps or it can be bringing bedtime earlier or wake up later because we never know which babies are gonna start to sleep for more.
than they were when we first started working with them and so it's always, always worth double checking at any point whether your baby can sleep for longer if given the opportunity to. So well done Katie, that's great, enjoy that unicorn. Yes, you have! Yes. Okay, now we have an email from Laura who says, thanks for all the wonderful work you both do.
Fallon Cook (49:21)
Mmm.
Yeah. So in short, yes, unicorn officially classified. ⁓ Amazing.
Dr Laura (49:44)
With your guidance, my baby has continued to sleep through the night since she was nine weeks old. That's wonderful. She's been on a consistent two nap schedule, one hour in the morning and 45 minutes in the afternoon and then eight to six thirty overnight since she turned six months with a 12 hour 15 minute sleep need. In the past week, however, I think she's showing signs of being ready to drop a nap. She's taking 10 to 15 minutes to self settle rather than the usual one or two minutes.
It's finding it hard to settle for her second nap and bedtime is pushing later, but there's no extra wakes overnight yet. So Laura's question is, can we drop to one nap at 11 months old or is this too early? It's a curly one.
Fallon Cook (50:29)
There are some babies. Every now and then we will come
across the baby that is just so ready at 11 months of age. But I would always say if they're not yet 12 months, your first step is to try for two short naps and see if you can get them to keep those two naps a little bit longer. So in Laura's case, they're having an hour in the morning, 45 minutes in the afternoon.
Dr Laura (50:44)
Mm.
Fallon Cook (50:53)
it could be probably the sleep cycles 45 minutes long, I'm guessing. So it might just be two 45 minute naps. ⁓ and you see how that goes, or, know, if the sleep cycle is shorter, it might be two 30 minute naps even. ⁓ just see how that goes. And if you're not getting any luck and your baby is just so ready for one nap, then follow their lead and, and do it. ⁓ and it's so lovely for that beautiful feedback, Laura. I know we've heard from Laura a few times, and it's always a pleasure. So.
Dr Laura (50:57)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Fallon Cook (51:22)
Yes, hopefully you get through to make that move to one nap and then they stick on one nap for so long, you know, you really get to just settle into that new rhythm, don't you? It does all feel a bit easier at that point. Excellent. And lucky last is from Kim, who has a 12 month old boy and like Laura, the last Laura is wondering if he needs to drop down to one nap.
Dr Laura (51:28)
yes. Yes.
Yeah, sure does. Okay.
Fallon Cook (51:48)
He seems to sometimes fight his naps but will end up going to sleep. He naps at 10am and 2pm and he's only napping for 30-40 minutes for his morning nap and he's sometimes tired and grumpy after this.
He also doesn't seem as tired as he used to be for the morning nap. He goes down to bed around 7.45 PM to 7.50, is awake around 7 AM and his sleep needs are around 13 hours. His bedtime used to be 7.20 or 7.30 PM, but recently they've been putting him down later as he doesn't seem tired and will fight it. If they drop to one nap, could it take him a while to consolidate his nap into a couple of hours?
Dr Laura (52:30)
Yeah, I would say Kim, he probably is ready to go down to one nap because both of those naps now are already short that your 12 month old is on. So there isn't any wriggle room there like there is for Laura's son or daughter, sorry. So I would be looking at making that move. So
in terms of how long it's going to take, simply by pushing that first nap, which is currently at 10, trying to push it closer to 11, first of all, it's just going to mean that his sleep pressure is that much higher when he goes down for the nap, which means he's more likely to link that sleep cycle. So usually we see that babies start to have a longer nap, so consolidating the two short ones within a week, normally within a few days.
So first of all, if he continues to only have one sleep cycle for that one nap that you're moving him to, he can either bring bedtime earlier or you can use the power nap option and then trying again the next day. But it sounds like he's ticking a lot of those boxes, Kim, that transition is now upon you. And like Falon just said for Laura, it does get much easier once they're just on the one nap. So good luck, Kim. Let us know how you get on.
Fallon Cook (53:55)
Yeah, good luck to all the parents who have written in. Thank you for your beautiful feedback and really interesting questions as well. I know it helps so many parents who tune into the podcast. Don't forget Sombelle is at the time we're recording it is on sale. We have, try and know, discount it when we can, because we know it's super tough with the cost of living going up and up and up at the moment. So if you're needing support, do check it out. There's some pretty good specials to be had. There's also the Night Waking Masterclass too. So if you're struggling
Dr Laura (54:17)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (54:25)
with overnight waking do go and check that out it's part of the Sombelle membership. Please buy us a coffee if you're able to or there was someone who bought some the other day and I was gonna look up who it was and give them a big thank you. Laura how fast can you Google that?
Dr Laura (54:35)
Yes!
⁓ Let me
have a look. Coffee.
Fallon Cook (54:43)
I think they bought five coffees, which was just so lovely. Emily, thank you very much, Emily.
Dr Laura (54:45)
Yeah, they bought us. Emily. Emily bought us. Yeah. Thank you so much. She said,
let me see. She says, so thankful for all the work you do. Your approach was so accessible, generous and gentle that when I thought sleep deprivation was just something I had to accept. ⁓ Well done, Emily. Yeah. Thank you. We really appreciate that. That's wonderful.
Fallon Cook (55:03)
Thank you so much. Yeah.
We do. Well, on that note, I've got to run and do the school run. So let's wrap it up for this week and we'll be back again in a fortnight. Thanks everyone for tuning in.
Dr Laura (55:18)
Thanks
everyone, bye bye.
