Fallon Cook (00:37)
Parent questions have been coming through thick and fast during the Christmas and New Year holidays. So on parent request, in this episode, we dive into how to adjust nap lengths, how to choose a settling approach for a new baby when you already have a toddler in the house, how to reduce the number of overnight feeds, and what to do when your baby only settles for one parent. That's so common. Plus we discuss our big
Laura Conway (00:37)
Parent questions have been coming through thick and fast during the Christmas and New Year holidays. So on parent requests, in this episode, we dive into how to adjust nap lengths, how to choose a settling approach for a new baby when you already have a toddler in the house, how to reduce the number of overnight feeds, and what to do when your baby only settles for one parent. That's so common. Plus we discuss our big
plans for 2020.
Fallon Cook (01:06)
plans for 2026,
Laura Conway (01:07)
including a huge expansion of our clinic services so more families can enjoy easier settling and more restful nights with their little one.
Fallon Cook (01:08)
including a huge expansion of our clinic services so more families can enjoy easier settling and more restful nights with their little one.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and this is Dr. Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, this is so weird. We are recording in the same room and I can turn and actually look at you.
Laura Conway (01:31)
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle pediatric sleep clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fellencook and this is Dr. Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, this is so weird. We are recording in the same room and I can turn and actually look at you. I
know, it's so weird. I know what you're saying, that we're creatures of habit. So now we've changed things up. We're both getting a bit, um.
Fallon Cook (01:53)
What a novelty. I noticed you were saying that we're creatures of habit. So now we've changed things up. We're both getting a bit, um,
I don't know, just starstruck by each other. Yeah. Where do I look? What do I say? I've got a laptop on my lap and I'm on a couch. It's weird. Um, if you, of course, if you're listening in, you're thinking, what the hell are they talking about? Oh goodness. Um, but yeah, we're actually in the same room together because we've just kind of completed our
Laura Conway (02:01)
I don't know just starstruck by each other. Where do I look? What do I say? I've got a laptop on my lap and I'm on the couch. It's weird. Of course if you're listening in you're thinking what the hell are they talking about? goodness. But yeah we're actually in the same room together because we've just kind of completed our planning
Fallon Cook (02:22)
planning weekend, working on what that future direction of infant sleep Australia and Sombelle and
Laura Conway (02:23)
weekend working on what that future direction of Infant Sleep Australia and Sombelle and
Fallon Cook (02:28)
our Children's Sleep Australia clinics, you know, the directions that we're going to take in 2026. And it's pretty exciting, isn't it? Like it's really nice to sit down and just, you know, we're always so caught up in the work, helping families and then to just sit down, just us, take a breath and go, okay, where have we gotten, where are we heading? How do we make this work? Yeah. And we've both had that time.
Laura Conway (02:29)
Children's Sleep Australia clinics, know, the directions that we're going to take in 2026. And it's pretty exciting, isn't it? It's really nice to sit down and just, you know, we're always so caught up in the work, helping families and then to just sit down, just us, take a breath and go, okay, where have we gotten, where are we heading? How do we make this work? Yeah. And we've both had that time
with our families over Christmas and New Year. And then we've been able to take a bit
Fallon Cook (02:52)
with our families over Christmas and New Year. And then we've been able to take a bit
Laura Conway (02:58)
of
Fallon Cook (02:59)
of a breather and then start this next year with coming together and yeah, working out where we want to
Laura Conway (02:59)
a breather and then start this next year with coming together and yeah working out where we want to go next so. And there's something about the new year that always makes me, I know everybody likes to set their new year resolutions and I never really specifically do but there's something about stepping into a new year that always makes me go what do I really want out of this year? Like what do want my work to look like? What am I...
Fallon Cook (03:07)
And there's something about the new year that like always makes me I know everybody likes to set their resolutions and I never really specifically do but there's something about stepping into a new year that always makes me go what do I really want out of this year like what do I want my work to look like what are my
what are my priorities with my children how I want to spend my time it's so good to take a look at these things but look I would say probably the number one coolest biggest
Laura Conway (03:24)
What are my priorities with my children? How I want to spend my time. It's so good to take a look at these things. But look, I would say probably the number one coolest, biggest,
Fallon Cook (03:33)
amazing thing that we want to announce is that from this coming Thursday, January 15th, my god that's come around so quickly, Laura you are going to be working in our brand new clinic at the Victorian Children's Clinic in Melbourne which is a suburb of Melbourne. Yes that's right it's really exciting
Laura Conway (03:33)
amazing thing that we want to announce is that from this coming, is it this coming Thursday? Yeah, this coming Thursday. 15th. Oh my God, that's come around so quickly. Laura, you are going to be working in our brand new clinic at the Victorian Children's Clinic in Melbourne, which is a suburb of Melbourne. Yes, that's right. It's really
exciting so for those β Melbourneites listening it's on Waddletree Road not too far from Cabrini
Fallon Cook (03:54)
so for those β Melbourneites listening it's on Wattletree Road not too far from β
hospital and it's in a beautiful space. it's gorgeous. β
Laura Conway (04:01)
Hospital and it's in a beautiful space which I know our families are gonna love. Yeah because it's all about pediatrics, there's 30 odd pediatricians I think. Yeah that's right. And they've got a new allied house hub which you'll be
Fallon Cook (04:06)
Yeah. Cause it's all about pediatrics. There's 30 odd pediatricians, think. Yeah. And they've got a new allied health hub, β which you'll be
based within. I just think, you know, for, for a really long time, we've been looking for an excellent clinic space where families just walk in, feel at home. You know, it's like a warm hug. It's child friendly. So you're not thinking, my gosh, I've got to keep, you know, my toddler silent. There's toys for them. They can relax. Everyone can relax. Parents can take a weight off. That's right. You know, when I had.
Laura Conway (04:16)
based within and I just think you know for a really long time we've been looking for an excellent clinic space where families just walk in, feel at home, you know it's like a warm hug, it's child friendly so you're thinking oh my gosh I've got to keep my toddler silent, there's toys for them, everyone can relax, parents can take a weight off. That's right you know and I had
before Christmas I went in to meet everybody and I was talking to the practice manager about oh you know who's going to be working in this space at the same time.
Fallon Cook (04:36)
Before Christmas I went in to meet everybody and I was talking to the practice manager about... β
who's going to be working in this space at the same time,
Laura Conway (04:46)
I'm here because I just want to be aware of whether the children are really noisy for example. She looked at me like I was mad. She was like, children screaming, that's fine. We're all on the lookout for runners.
Fallon Cook (04:46)
I'm here. Because I just want to be aware of whether the children are really noisy, for example. Someone's being treated for trauma in the next room and you've got a toddler screaming at the top of their lungs. She looked at me like I was mad. She was like, children screaming. That's fine. We're all on the lookout for runners.
Love that. Our priority is making sure that no one escapes. So come with your crying children and your rambunctious toddlers because you'll be welcomed with open arms. So super excited. It's going to be on Thursdays as our starting point.
Laura Conway (05:10)
She that's what our priority is, making sure that none of the children escape. So come with your crying children and your rambunctious toddlers because you'll be welcomed with open arms. So super excited. It's going to be on Thursdays as our starting point
and we'll look to increase our days if and when we need to.
Fallon Cook (05:34)
Yeah, we'll look to increase our days even when we need to.
Laura Conway (05:38)
Amazing and you'll also be seeing older children there as well because it is a pediatric clinic up to 18 years of age.
Fallon Cook (05:38)
Amazing. And you'll also be seeing older children there as well, because it is a pediatric clinic up to 18 years of age. So if you've got older children, you know, we run Children's Sleep Australia through there as well for kids four to 18 years. And a lot of people are really surprised. Like, oh, do they have sleep problems? Yeah. Sleep problems happen across the lifespan. It's not like we exit toddlerhood and we're all good. And then we turn into adults and it all comes back.
Laura Conway (05:45)
So if you've got older children, we run Children's Sleep Australia through there as well for kids 4 to 18 years. And a lot people are really surprised, like, oh, do they have sleep problems? Sleep problems happen across the lifespan. exit toddlerhood and we're all good. And then we turn into adults and it all comes back.
Fallon Cook (06:04)
No, that's right. They do keep going. Yeah, if you've got teenagers who are worried about exams and that's keeping them up or teenagers who aren't able to get out of bed until one o'clock in the afternoon and they don't go
Laura Conway (06:05)
No, that's right. So, yeah, if you've got teenagers who are worried about exams and that's keeping them up or teenagers who aren't able to get out of bed until one o'clock in the afternoon and they don't
to sleep until two in the morning or β yeah you've got a primary school aged child with really severe separation anxiety yeah yeah worried about
Fallon Cook (06:16)
to sleep until two in the morning or yeah, you've got a primary school aged child with really severe separation anxiety. And that's a common one. Yeah, worried about.
Laura Conway (06:26)
monsters in their cupboards or burglars breaking into the house and things like that. β
Fallon Cook (06:26)
monsters in their cupboards or burglars breaking into the house. Yes. And often they miss out on school camps, kids with sleep problems, which is such a shame. Yeah. Like, yeah. And I think parents often feel like there's nothing that can be done about that, but
absolutely plenty can be done. We don't want kids missing out on these amazing opportunities. School camps, I think, are so important for their confidence and yeah, building friendship. β
Laura Conway (06:40)
Absolutely, plenty can be done. Kids missing out on these amazing opportunities. School camps I think are so important for their confidence. Yeah, building friendships.
Excellent. Well, hopefully you won't have any teenagers doing a runner from the clinic. That's harder to catch. Yeah, I might just sit back and... β well, I'm here when you want help.
Fallon Cook (06:51)
Excellent. Well, hopefully you won't have any teenagers doing a runner from the clinic. They're much harder to catch. β I might just sit back and... β well. See you then.
Laura Conway (07:05)
Yeah, but we also, because we are embedded there within an existing community of pediatricians and pediatric allied health professionals.
Fallon Cook (07:06)
we also, because we are embedded there within an existing community of pediatricians and pediatric allied health professionals.
Laura Conway (07:18)
that if we do identify that there are potentially some gut issues that your baby is having, perhaps some allergies, then there is an allergist who works at the clinic. There's ENT specialists, sleep and respiratory physicians, general pediatricians. you imagine that ENT is about to be very busy, not already. Oh, but how wonderful to just, we're gonna have everybody we need there for families to get everything in one.
Fallon Cook (07:18)
that if we do identify that there are potentially some gut issues that your baby is having, perhaps some allergies, then...
who works at the clinic. There's ENT specialists, sleep and respiratory physicians. I hope they're ready for us. Can you imagine that ENT is about to be very busy if they're not already. But how wonderful to just, we're gonna have everybody we need there for families to get everything in one
place. And we are thinking about expanding what services we offer there. We'll go into that more later once we really decide on it. But we'll be moving in all sorts of directions. So stay tuned.
Laura Conway (07:45)
and we are thinking about expanding what services we offer there. We'll go into that more later once we really decide on it but we'll be moving in all sorts of directions so stay tuned
Fallon Cook (07:57)
for sure. Yes and you've got some exciting news about what you'll be doing. Yes so with you taking more face-to-face clients in the Victorian Children's Clinic I will be sort of stepping back into a role I used to do a lot of.
Laura Conway (07:57)
for sure. Yes and you've got some exciting news about what you'll be doing as well. So with you taking more face-to-face clients in Victorian Children's Clinic I will be stepping back into a role I used to do a lot of.
Fallon Cook (08:11)
I'll be taking on new families in the clinic for the first time in I actually think it's been a couple of years one or two years something around that length of time so I've just been predominantly working on coaching calls with Sombelle members for a long time now but I will be stepping back into
Laura Conway (08:11)
I'll be taking on new families in the clinic for the first time in, I actually think it's been a couple of years, one or two years, something around that length of time. So I've just been predominantly working on coaching calls with Sombelle members for a long time now, but I will be stepping back into
Fallon Cook (08:27)
more of a clinic role. So I'll be doing initial appointments with families, which is like our big 50 minute appointment with a full assessment and then follow up appointments as well. And that's something we get emails about quite a lot. So if you've been hoping to get in with me for an initial appointment, β
Laura Conway (08:27)
more of a clinic role. So I'll be doing initial appointments with families, which is like a big 50 minute appointment with a full assessment and then follow up appointments as well. And that's something we get emails about quite a lot. So if you've been hoping to get in with me for an initial appointment,
Now's time. Yes. have literally just over in about 20 minutes. It turns it all on. like, right, we're going to do this. So yeah, it's a unique opportunity because often bookings do fill up quite
Fallon Cook (08:42)
now's your time. My books have literally just opened about 20 minutes ago, haven't they Laura? We went and turned it all on. We're like, right, we're going to do this. So yeah, it's a unique opportunity because often, yeah, bookings do fill up quite.
Laura Conway (08:54)
quickly. Yeah, they do. You're wanting to see either Laura or I directly. Yeah, don't take too long because that will fill up. But I'm really looking forward to that change of pace. It's a little bit scary too. Yes. Got to change how I think about the appointments. β yeah, they're not coaching calls.
Fallon Cook (08:54)
quickly. So if you're wanting to see either Laura or I directly, β yeah, don't take too long because that will fill up. But I'm really looking forward to that change of pace. It's a little bit scary too. I've got to change how I think about the appointments and that, β yeah, they're not coaching calls.
Laura Conway (09:11)
I
Fallon Cook (09:11)
I can't finish them up at 25 minutes. That's right. But you're going to be awesome. You'll fall in riding a bike, I reckon.
Laura Conway (09:11)
can't finish them up at 25 minutes. No, that's right. But you're gonna be awesome. You'll fall. It'll be like riding a bike. I reckon you're just gonna go. Oh, yeah, that's I'll have to my bike out. I'll make sure I remember how to do that too. Remove the rust. Yeah. Oh, goodness. Well, I wanted to mention something really funny. Like it was a while ago now. We had an episode and we were asking for
Fallon Cook (09:19)
You're just going to go, β yeah, that's right. I'll have to pull my bike out of the shed and make sure I can remember how to do that too. Remove the rust. Yeah. β goodness. Well, I wanted to β mention something really funny. Like it was a while ago now we had an episode and we were asking for
parent hacks. Like what helps them when they've got to get up early to get their baby or their toddler up and listeners will remember that.
Laura Conway (09:37)
parent hacks, like what helps them when they've got to get up early to get their baby or their toddler up and listeners will remember that.
Parent routine with a great hack which was to you know, if you've got an espresso machine make your blood pour your shot of coffee the night before So that when you're up at, know 6 a.m. With your toddler bleary-eyed you can Add some milk add some ice make yourself a nice coffee and just kind of get that caffeine Get going And I just thought this is such an example of it doesn't matter what you say on the internet. Someone's gonna hate it. I Thought this hack was brilliant, but on TikTok
Fallon Cook (09:44)
a parent wrote in with a great hack, was to, you know, if you've got an espresso machine, make your, like pour your shot of coffee the night before. β so that when you're up at, you know, 6 AM with your toddler, bleary eyed, you can, β add some milk, add some ice, make yourself a nice coffee and just kind of get that caffeine in there so you can kickstart the day. And I just thought this is such an example of it. Doesn't matter what you say on the internet. Someone's gonna hate it.
I thought this hack was brilliant, but on TikTok
someone came on to tell us that no, coffee is a terrible way to start the day and that we all should be starting the day with a nice cup of bone broth. How do you feel about that, Laura? Well, I'm not sure that it's going to work for me personally.
Laura Conway (10:14)
someone came on to tell us that no, coffee's a terrible way to start the day and that we all should be starting the day with a nice cup of bone broth. How do you feel about that, Well, I'm not sure that it's gonna work for me personally.
I'm not going to throw shade on people that do like to start the day with bone broth, but I would say that there's not so many...
Fallon Cook (10:33)
I'm not going to throw shade on people that do like to start the day with bone broth. I would say that there's not so many
bone broth cafes lining the streets. Generally it's...
Laura Conway (10:41)
bone broth cafes lining the streets. Generally it's
cafes that sell really nice coffee. So yeah, think the demand is there for the caffeine. Yes. There's nothing wrong with a cup of coffee in the morning. Not at all. β how funny. We've had a couple of beautiful emails coming in as well.
Fallon Cook (10:46)
cafes that sell really nice coffee. So yeah, I think the demand is there for the caffeine and there's nothing wrong with a cup of coffee in the morning. How I survive. β how funny. We've had a couple of beautiful emails come in as well. Laura.
I'll read out the first one maybe from Katherine who said, just wanted to send a huge thank you to you both for your supportive, easy to use program. It has helped my husband and I get on the same page with our five months old, five month old sleep. β And we've gone from 30 to 45 minute crying settles. β that's hard. To just five to 10 minutes of babbling and then off to sleep. my goodness. What a change. Katherine says, I no longer dread her sleeps. In fact, I quite enjoy watching her babble.
Laura Conway (11:06)
from Katherine who said, just wanted to send a huge thank you to you both for your supportive, easy to use program.
It has helped my husband and I get on the same page with our five month old sleep. And we've gone from 30 to 45 minute crying settles, oh, that's hard. To just five to 10 minutes of babbling and then off to sleep. Oh my goodness. What a change. Catherine says, I no longer dread her sleeps. In fact, I quite enjoy watching her babble
Fallon Cook (11:35)
away and take herself off to sleep. She says it's been so nice to listen to the podcast as a new mum. She says you've helped me sift through the noise around baby sleep
Laura Conway (11:35)
away and take herself off to sleep. She says, it's been so nice to listen to the podcast as a new mom. She says, you've helped me sift through the noise around baby sleep.
Fallon Cook (11:44)
and I feel so much more confident. I'm so glad I found some bell. We are so glad that you found us Catherine. Yeah. Really wonderful to hear. Absolutely. We had another lovely email from Sarah who said I've really appreciated your team's approach to sleep both in our consult and on the podcast.
Laura Conway (11:44)
feel so much more confident. I'm so glad I found Sombelle. that's lovely. And we are so glad that you found us, Catherine. That's really wonderful to hear. had another lovely email from Sarah who said, I've really appreciated your team's approach to sleep, both in our consult and on the podcast.
You guys strike a brilliant balance between evidence based recommendations and genuinely supporting parental preferences and needs.
Fallon Cook (12:04)
You guys strike a brilliant balance between evidence-based recommendations and genuinely supporting parental preferences and needs.
It's a fantastic example of true shared decision-making, which is really lacking in the baby sleep space. Absolutely. β This is spoken as someone with a doctor of medicine degree and a GP fellowship who still gets sucked into the vortex whole paternalistic advice, pseudoscience and guilt provoking nonsense. I'll be recommending the
Laura Conway (12:12)
It's a fantastic example of true shared decision making, which is really lacking in the baby sleep space. Absolutely. This is spoken as someone with a Doctor of Medicine degree and a GP fellowship who still gets sucked into the vortex whole paternalistic advice, pseudoscience and guilt provoking nonsense. I'll be recommending the pod
Fallon Cook (12:34)
and programmed to my patients and to other medical mums. I was so
Laura Conway (12:35)
and program to my patients and to other medical mums. β
Fallon Cook (12:39)
happy when we got that email from Sarah. It's so lovely. But what it really highlights is you can be incredibly qualified and very intelligent, really capable person. But it's I mean, we're going to talk a bit more about it today, actually, aren't we? And answering some parent questions. There are a lot of noisy people out there who really come across like they know what they're talking about. And especially when you're vulnerable and really tired, it's really
Laura Conway (12:41)
Sarah. Yes. But what it really highlights is you can be incredibly qualified and very intelligent, really capable person. But it's I mean, we're going to talk a bit more about it today, actually, aren't we? And answering some parent questions. There are a lot of noisy people out there who
really come across like they know what they're talking about and especially when you're vulnerable and really tired it's really
Fallon Cook (13:04)
easy to fall into the trap and to be alarmed by what they're saying and then you start reading or watching more and more and more until you're just absolutely convinced of something that could be entirely untrue and it happens to the best of us. yeah if you're a mum out there or a dad who has fallen into that hole and found your way out again I'd just be really proud of yourself for finding your way out because some people don't do they? Yeah
Laura Conway (13:04)
easy to fall into the trap and to be alarmed by what they're saying and then you start reading or watching more and more and more until you're just absolutely convinced of something that could be entirely untrue and it happens to the best of us. So yeah if you're a mum out there or a dad who has fallen into that hole and you find your way out again I'd just be really proud of yourself for finding your way out. Absolutely yeah.
Fallon Cook (13:28)
no it's amazing thank you guys for that feedback it's really beautiful.
Laura Conway (13:28)
amazing thank you guys for that feedback it's really beautiful
Fallon Cook (13:32)
We also had Min and Megan who were kind enough to both of them bought us five coffees. I love it when they just like have all the caffeine. No one's buying us bone broth either. Thank you for that guys. But it's just so lovely. I think it was Min who mentioned that she has recently returned to work and on returning to work she was like right.
Laura Conway (13:32)
and we also had Min and Megan who were kind enough to both of them bought us five coffees I love it when they just like have all the cafe no one's buying us bone broth either. No they're not! Thank you for that class. we don't want bone broth. But it's just so lovely I think it was Min who mentioned that she has recently returned to work and on returning to work she was like right I can afford to buy them some coffees now.
Fallon Cook (13:54)
I can afford to buy them some coffees now.
Which is just such a really, like a lovely thought, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Yeah, she said that she had sworn to herself that when she returned to work and was earning money again, that she'd buy us coffees to say thank you. So thank you so much, Min. That was really thoughtful of you. Yeah. We really appreciate it. Yes. And thank you, Megan, too. Absolutely beautiful people. And I think we have to almost issue a little apology. Yeah, mostly from me. Sorry, everyone.
Laura Conway (13:56)
which is just such a really lovely thought. Yeah, it is. Yeah, she had said that she had sworn to herself that when she returned to work and was earning money again that she would buy us coffees to say thank you. So thank you so much, Min. That was really thoughtful of you and we really appreciate it. Yes, and thank you, Megan, too. Absolutely beautiful people. And I think we have to almost issue a little apology. Yeah, mostly from me. Sorry, everyone. There
Fallon Cook (14:24)
There have been a lot of parents very patiently waiting
Laura Conway (14:24)
have been a lot of parents very patiently waiting.
Fallon Cook (14:26)
to have their questions answered. I think some of these questions we're answering today were sent through on the 8th of December. So it's been just over a month β and we're really sorry about that. were...
Laura Conway (14:27)
and so I think some of these questions we're answering today were sent through on the 8th of December. Just over a month and we're really sorry about that. We were
absolutely slammed before Christmas. Yeah we were. It was just crazy. Yeah, lots of things were happening, lots of moving parts. β
Fallon Cook (14:37)
absolutely slammed before Christmas, weren't we? Things just, yeah, lots of things were happening, lots of moving parts, β and we can only
do our best. And part of our future planning is going, okay, we need more support. So hopefully that will change this year. We'll get onto your questions, you know, in a little bit more of a timely manner. And I've said to you, Fala, it's all right, you clock off, don't worry, I'm going to reply to those emails.
Laura Conway (14:47)
and part of our future planning is going, okay, we need more support. Yes, it is. That will change this year. We'll get onto your questions a little bit earlier. Yes, and I'd said to you, Fallon, it's all right, you clock off, don't worry, I'm going to reply to those emails. And then
I just didn't get to them. And I was like, β my goodness. So yeah, big apologies, everyone. So what we're going to do in today's episode
Fallon Cook (15:06)
I just didn't get to them. Oh my goodness. yeah, big apologies everyone. So what we're going to do in today's episode is
Laura Conway (15:17)
is answer questions that came through in December and in the first few days of January. β And if you're listening and you get to the end of listening to these questions and yours isn't there, don't worry because we're going to be recording another episode next week β and we will
Fallon Cook (15:17)
answer questions that came through in December and in the first few days of January. And if you're listening and you get to the end of listening to these questions and yours isn't there, don't worry because we're going to be recording another episode next week. And we will.
Laura Conway (15:33)
answer your questions then. Yeah, we're going to play catch up a little bit.
Fallon Cook (15:33)
your questions then. Yeah we're gonna play catch up a little
Laura Conway (15:37)
Okay, so our first question is from Megan or Megan. She started to Sombelle when her daughter was seven months old and waking up to seven times every night. She writes that she is thrilled to share that she now sleeps through the night and settles easily for naps. It's been truly life-changing.
Fallon Cook (15:37)
Okay, so our first question is from Megan. She started to song bell when her daughter was seven months old and waking up to seven times every night. She writes that she is thrilled to share that she now sleeps through the night and settles easily for naps. It's been truly life changing.
my gosh, cannot even, if someone woke me up seven times per night. I'd be cross. Yeah, I'd be more than cross. You've done so well, Megan. done.
Laura Conway (16:00)
β I'd be cross. Yeah, well done.
So Megan's question is about starting daycare in February. So her baby β will be starting daycare and Megan's anticipating that she'll be catching every bug β and perhaps needing extra sleep when she is unwell. And she asks us how she will know if her baby needs extra sleep.
Fallon Cook (16:07)
So Megan's question is about starting daycare in February. So her baby β will be starting daycare and Megan's anticipating that she'll be catching every bug. β
needing extra sleep when she is unwell and she asks us how she will know if her baby needs extra sleep
when she's unwell and when it's okay to just continue offering the same amount of sleep. Yes, love this question. So look, I would say if it's a minor cold, you're nothing too serious, which most daycare bugs hopefully will just be minor ones. You probably don't need to change anything about that daily rhythm. You don't need to add extra sleep.
Laura Conway (16:30)
when she's unwell and when it's okay to just continue offering the same amount of sleep? Yes, love this question. So look, I would say if it's a minor cold, you're nothing too serious, which most daycare bugs hopefully will just be minor ones. You probably don't need to change anything about that daily rhythm. You don't need to add extra sleep.
Fallon Cook (16:51)
I'd probably try and keep things on track. It's probably more when they're running a fever, they're vomiting. You're
Laura Conway (16:51)
I'd probably try and keep things on track. It's probably more when they're running a fever, they're vomiting.
Well, you're just seeing that really strong lethargy. That's when I would allow them to sleep
Fallon Cook (16:57)
just seeing that really strong lethargy. That's when I would allow them to sleep.
Laura Conway (17:03)
a little bit more, but I wouldn't go overboard. I've seen families where they're like, yeah, they had a fever. So they had a four hour nap. Yeah. I'm like, that's a lot. Yeah. When they only normally have 30 minutes or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So look, we can't give you, you know, a crystal clear answer because it so depends on what kind of bug it is. And you're just going to have to use your judgment, I think as a parent as to whether they need.
Fallon Cook (17:03)
a little bit more, but I wouldn't go overboard. I've seen families where they're like, yeah, they had a fever. So they had a four hour nap and I'm like, β that's a lot. Yeah. they only have 30 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So look, we can't give you, you know, a crystal clear answer because it so depends on what kind of bug it is. And you're just going to have to use your judgment, I think, as a parent as to whether they need
a little bit of extra sleep or whether you're okay to just keep.
Laura Conway (17:26)
sleep or whether you're okay to just
keep pushing on. Yeah and it may be that you bring bedtime slightly earlier or let your little ones sleep in for half an hour extra in the morning and just see how they go. It's a bit like when yourself when you're sick yourself sometimes you want to go to bed early and other times you're just happy to sit on the couch and watch something for a little bit and be a bit quiet.
Fallon Cook (17:28)
keep pushing on. Yeah and it may be that you bring bedtime slightly earlier or let your little ones sleep in for half an hour extra in the morning and just see how they go. It's a bit like when yourself when you're sick yourself sometimes you want to go to bed early and other times you're just happy to sit on the couch and watch something for a little bit and be a bit quiet.
Laura Conway (17:52)
Megan also wanted to know if we have any suggestions for accounts to follow that are aligned with
Fallon Cook (17:52)
Megan also wanted to know if we have any suggestions for accounts to follow that are aligned with
Laura Conway (17:57)
our approach and whether there are any sleep or parenting books that we recommend in particular. This is a really tough one to answer. I know that Megan mentioned we've already suggested Sleep Dock Shelby, That Sleep Dock and Sleep Dock Mer. β
Fallon Cook (17:58)
and whether there are any sleep or parenting books that we recommend in particular. This is a really tough one to answer. I know that Megan mentioned we've already suggested Sleep Dock Shelby, That Sleep Dock and Sleep Dock Mer.
β
those three are absolutely excellent. Those three, obviously us, but, I am so selective. I will not recommend something until I have vetted it to the Nth degree. β I haven't been really into the parenting book literature.
Laura Conway (18:17)
Those three are absolutely excellent. Those three, obviously us. We're quite good. I am so selective. I will not recommend something until I have vetted it to the nth degree. I haven't been really into the parenting book literature
for a long time, to be completely honest, because my kids are that little bit older. I don't really feel confident suggesting any particular book, unless it's something by maybe Jodie Mindell. She's amazing. β
Fallon Cook (18:36)
for a long time to be completely honest because my kids are that little bit older. I don't really feel confident suggesting any particular book unless it's something by maybe Jodie Mindell. She's amazing. β
Laura Conway (18:47)
I would say that sleep doc is a really good one for stuff about children's sleep science, baby sleep science. Sleep doc Shelby and sleep doc Mer tend to focus a little bit more on, they have a bit of a focus on women's sleep actually, so I think that's really important as parents or adults, not necessarily just women.
Fallon Cook (18:47)
I would say β that Sleep Dock is a really good one for stuff about children's sleep science, baby sleep science. Sleep Dock Shelby and Sleep Dock Mer tend to focus a little bit more on, they have a bit of a focus on women's sleep actually. So think that's really important as parents β or adults, not necessarily just women, but. β
Laura Conway (19:06)
you
Fallon Cook (19:06)
know, protecting your own sleep as well. So look, I'm, going to have a think on this and I'm going to do a bit of an explore and I would definitely get back to our listeners if I find more that I'd like to recommend off the top of my head. I can't really think of anyone. No, and look, we tend to look at the academic literature rather than like popular books that you'd find in Big W. β Yeah. And look, just thinking too, it can't even just be based. It's so challenging in this field because
Laura Conway (19:06)
know, checking your own sleep as well. So look, I'm going to have a think on this and I'm going to do a bit of an explore and I will definitely get back to our listeners if I find more that I'd like to recommend off the top of my head. I can't really think of anyone. No, and look, we tend to look at the academic literature rather than like popular books that you'd find in Big W. Yeah, and look, it's thinking too. It can't even just be based. It's so challenging in this field because
I came across someone the other day, actually somebody did send me one of their videos and was like, what the heck are they saying? They are extremely highly qualified and spouting really alarming nonsense. I won't name them, I will show you later. But so alarming and I think we're going to see this happen as it becomes harder for highly qualified people to make a living telling the truth.
Fallon Cook (19:36)
I came across someone the other day, actually somebody did send me one of their videos and was like, what the heck are they saying? They are extremely highly qualified and spouting really alarming nonsense. β I won't name them. I will show you later, Laura, but so alarming. And I think we're going to see this happen as it becomes harder for highly qualified people to make a living telling the truth.
Laura Conway (20:05)
There are going to be some that are sucked into saying alarming things to get clicks, to get attention, to get fame on social media. So that they can flog whatever it is they're selling. It's usually something that they're selling. Obviously, we also sell stuff. That's how we make a living. It's impossible to make a living in sleep research at the moment. But I think there's a way to do it that is...
Fallon Cook (20:05)
There are going to be some that are sucked into saying alarming things to get clicks, to get attention, to get fame on social media so that they can flog whatever it is they're selling. There's usually something that they're selling.
β obviously we also sell stuff. That's how we make a living. It's impossible to make a living in sleep research at the moment. β but I think there's a way to do it. That is
the right way and ethical way. And we are always considering, we walking the ethical line with how we market things? Are we being honest? Are we being transparent? But there will be some experts very qualified, but they will just say whatever alarming crap they need to say to get your attention, to sell you something. And usually you can never get in to see them.
Laura Conway (20:30)
the right way, an ethical way, and we are always considering, are we walking the ethical line with how we market things? Are we being honest? Are we being transparent? But there will be some experts very qualified, but they will just say whatever alarming crap they need to say to get your attention, to sell you something. And usually you can never get in to see them
in person either. Look, I'm talking about an overseas account. think a lot of people probably don't even know, but.
Fallon Cook (20:50)
person either. That's another thing. Look I'm talking about an overseas account I think a lot of people probably don't even know but
just be aware. I think we're gonna see an increase you know in people who are doing that because they're desperate they need to feed their families and it's no longer profitable for a lot of experts to be able to get
Laura Conway (20:57)
just be aware. I think we're gonna see an increase in people who are doing that because they're desperate, they need to feed their families and it's no longer profitable for a lot of experts to be able to get
Fallon Cook (21:11)
clients through the door anyway number of political and world politic kind of reasons that are influencing these spaces right now that we definitely can't dive into. No no absolutely not I would just general
Laura Conway (21:11)
clients through the door and a number of political and world, to kind of reasons influencing these spaces right now that you definitely can't dive into. No, absolutely not. I would just general.
advice around where
Fallon Cook (21:25)
advice around β where
Laura Conway (21:28)
you believe sleep advice from is whether that expert has ever published in the area as in academic published or has been like that isn't necessarily always an avenue that's available to everyone but is at least β affiliated with a academic institution where there are people who do sleep research.
Fallon Cook (21:30)
sleep advice from is whether that expert
has ever published in the area as in academic published or has been, that isn't necessarily always an avenue that's available to everyone but is at least affiliated with a academic institution where there are people who do sleep research.
Laura Conway (21:55)
Yeah, β because for example, we're, β you know, my PhD was looking at parent-child interactions, my postdoctoral fellowship was looking at sleep
Fallon Cook (21:56)
oh that's such a point. For example, my PhD was looking at parent-child interactions, my postdoctoral fellowship was looking at
sleep and child development. β
Laura Conway (22:07)
and child development. I would not be able to stand here and tell you what the evidence-based approach is for children who are toe walking. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (22:09)
I would not be able to stand here and tell you what the evidence-based approach is for children who are toe-walking. Yeah.
Or what are your thoughts on pediatric diabetes, Laura? Absolutely no idea. So a real expert will say, I don't know, that's not my field. They won't just spout something alarming so that you β go, my gosh, I didn't know that. better follow this person. Yeah. So even if someone is a expert of a particular field, if they are a expert
Laura Conway (22:18)
or what are your thoughts on pediatric diabetes, Laura? Absolutely no idea. So a real expert will say, I don't know, that's not my field. They won't just spout something alarming so that you go, my gosh, I didn't know that, I better follow this person. Yeah. So even if someone is a expert of a particular field, if they are a expert
in the development of walking skills and β difficulties with gross motor skill development in children,
Fallon Cook (22:39)
in the development of walking skills and β difficulties with gross motor skill development in children.
β
Laura Conway (22:48)
then that's their lane. They aren't necessarily going to be across all of the information about sleep research and β infant sleep, just like we are not across gross motor development in a high level of detail. We're also constantly learning about sleep and work is never done. anyone who's making out like they know everything, red flag. yeah. And what the research found,
Fallon Cook (22:49)
And that's their lane. They aren't necessarily going to be across all of the information about sleep research and infant sleep, just like we are not across gross motor development in a high level of detail. And we're also constantly learning about sleep. Our work is never done. anyone who's making out like they know everything, massive red flag. And what the research found.
Laura Conway (23:18)
15, 20 years ago, know, if that the way that that research is conducted or it can't be replicated or it has been further research has been done, which has refined how we understand the previous research findings, then we change what we recommend in clinic. We, so science is always about building on previous research findings.
Fallon Cook (23:18)
15, 20 years ago, if the way that that research is conducted, or it can't be replicated, it has been, further research has been done, which has refined how we understand the previous research findings, then we change.
what we recommend in clinic. So science is always about building on previous research findings,
testing it, making sure to see that it's a robust finding. If it's not, why not?
Laura Conway (23:44)
testing it, making sure to see that it's a robust finding. If it's not, why not? And
Fallon Cook (23:49)
And so if you have, you're following people who are just absolutely stuck in the mud, refusing to budge their opinions about sleep interventions or just our understanding about just the biology of sleep. That's a red flag. Yeah. A hundred percent. Well, didn't we go down? Yeah. Megan's like, well guys, I didn't actually need all of that.
Laura Conway (23:49)
so if you have, you're following people who are just absolutely stuck in the mud, refusing to budge their opinions about sleep interventions or just our understanding about just the biology of sleep, that's a red flag. Wow. Didn't we? β sorry, Megan. I just wanted a book.
Fallon Cook (24:12)
Get us talking about these sorts of things and we cannot shut up, which is unfortunate because
with a lot of questions to get through. let's move on to Grace B. Grace has a 10 month old who's been a very unsettled sleeper since birth with frequent night waking. She's tried two sleep scores without success, and carries a lot of guilt from being encouraged to persist with patting and responses settling using an unrealistic schedule. Her baby needs about 11 hours of total sleep, goes to bed around 7.45 to 8.00 wakes at 6 to 6.30 AM, has two 30 minute naps and can settle in
Laura Conway (24:23)
Grace has a 10 month old who's been a very unsettled sleeper since birth with frequent night waking. She's tried two sleep schools without success and carries a lot of guilt from being encouraged to persist with patting and responses settling using an unrealistic schedule.
Her baby needs about 11 hours of total sleep, goes to bed around 7.45 to 8.00 p.m., wakes at 6 to 6.30 a.m., has two 30-minute naps, and can settle independently
at bedtime.
He now sleeps about two hours initially but then wakes every one to three hours overnight and struggles to resettle, often escalating despite her reassurance. Night feeds are down to one but unwanted co-sleeping has crept in out of exhaustion and Grace is wondering whether the sleep school experience has contributed to his ongoing night waking and what some of our approach might help now. Oh Grace, look you will be in very good company in our community.
Fallon Cook (25:00)
Oh, look, you will be in very good company.
in our community
of β parents with
Laura Conway (25:20)
of β parents with
having had this experience of persisting with one consistent settling approach which didn't quite result in the changes that you expected because the daily rhythm wasn't quite right and that is a missing piece of the puzzle often. So I just want to reassure you that β
Fallon Cook (25:26)
having had this experience of persisting with one consistent settling approach, which didn't quite result in the changes that you expected because the daily rhythm wasn't quite right and that is a missing piece of the puzzle often. So I just want to reassure you that
you won't have traumatized your baby. It sounds like from what you described in your longer email that you were patting your baby consistently.
Laura Conway (25:47)
You won't have traumatized your baby. It sounds like from what you've described in your longer email that you were patting your baby consistently.
You
Fallon Cook (25:56)
You were being really responsive, you weren't just popping your baby in the car, walking out of the room and not going back until morning.
Laura Conway (25:56)
were being really responsive. You weren't just popping your baby in the car, walking out of the room and not going back until morning. So I just want you to try to let go of that guilt. You haven't done anything wrong. You would have had a really bumpy time and I'm sorry that you had that experience.
Fallon Cook (26:04)
So β I just want you to try to let go of that guilt. You haven't done anything wrong. You would have had a really bumpy time and I'm sorry that you had that experience
β but β you haven't harmed your baby and it doesn't mean that you're not going to be able to see major improvements when you try again.
Laura Conway (26:17)
β but you haven't harmed your baby and it doesn't mean that you're not going to be able to see major improvements when you try again.
Fallon Cook (26:30)
So I think well done that you're down to one feed a night.
Laura Conway (26:30)
So I think well done that you're down to one feed a night and let's think about how to get you out of the unwanted co-sleeping.
Fallon Cook (26:36)
And let's think about how to get you out of the unwanted co-sleeping. feel like it's reasonably minor
tweaks here too, isn't it? Like just firming up that schedule, like it's an 8pm bedtime, 6am wake up latest and then you two 30 minute naps. That brings you to that total, you know, yeah, 11 hour sleep need and just get rid of that last night feed because sometimes when babies know there's one fee, they just keep waking and waking and waking. Like, is it time? Can I have another one? What about now?
Laura Conway (26:45)
weeks here too isn't it? Just firming up that schedule like it's an 8 p.m bedtime 6 a.m wake up latest and then you two 30 minute naps that brings you to that total 11 hours sleep and just get rid of that last night feed because sometimes when babies know there's one feed they just keep waking and waking and waking like is it time can I have another one what about now?
Yes that's right this is one of those yeah drop that and then and drop pick the night that you're gonna drop that and stop co-sleeping
Fallon Cook (27:06)
That's right. So it might come down to, yeah, dropping that and then an approach. the night that you're going to drop that and stop co-sleeping.
Yeah. All at once. But what approach do you reckon? Like I'd probably go supported accelerated. Yeah. So you've spent a lot of time doing the patting. β so let's now say, no, move on to something quick. And you're with those tweaks. Honestly, Grace should be across the line in no time. Cause they're comfortable in that cot. Like they've had so much experience falling asleep in that cot.
Laura Conway (27:14)
Yeah, all at once. What approach do you reckon? Like I'd probably go support I would go support accelerator too. Yep. So you've spent a lot of time doing the patting. So let's now say, no, move on to something quick. And you're with those tweaks, honestly, Grace, you'll be across the line in no time. Cause they're comfortable in that cot. Like they've had so much experience falling asleep in that
They're not scared. They're not worried about being there. It's about taking that next step and saying, you can do this. You know, building it.
Fallon Cook (27:36)
They're not scared. They're not worried about being there. It's about taking that next step and saying you can do this. You know, I've got you building their
confidence. So good luck. Let us know how you get on. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, we've had an email from Lara who's in the UK and she has a baby who sleeps really well overnight about 12 hours with one feed. Her baby can self settle at night sometimes just with a quick cuddle, but the struggle is with naps. So Lara and her partner are stuck in a contact
Laura Conway (27:43)
So good luck, let us know how you get on. absolutely. Okay, we've had an email from Lara who's in the UK β and she has a baby who sleeps really well overnight, about 12 hours with one feed. Her baby can self settle at night, sometimes just with a quick cuddle, but the struggle is with naps. So Lara and her partner are stuck in a contact napping
Fallon Cook (28:06)
pattern which just isn't sustainable for them anymore.
Laura Conway (28:06)
pattern, which just isn't sustainable for them anymore.
Fallon Cook (28:10)
So dad can get the baby to sleep easily for the naps, she settles without feeding for him but Lara can only settle her for her naps with feeding and then transferring her to her cot which then results in her waking up after only 40 minutes whereas with the dad she'll sleep, she'll link a cycle.
Laura Conway (28:10)
So dad can get the baby to sleep easily for the naps. She settles without feeding for him. But Lara can only settle her for her naps with feeding and then transferring her to her cot, which then results in her waking up after only 40 minutes, whereas with the dad, she'll sleep, she'll link a cycle.
So Lara says that attempts to move away from contact naps have resulted in prolonged crying.
Fallon Cook (28:33)
So Lara says that attempts to move away from contact naps have resulted in prolonged crying
and Lara is subsequently feeling really frustrated and stuck and wants to know how to break this contact nap cycle, especially when her baby will settle for dad, but not for mum. Mmm, tricky one. Look, I would say one of the things I often suggest to families in this situation is if your baby will nap in the pram, then you're just going to do pram naps for a week or even two weeks. Just get out and about or car.
Laura Conway (28:38)
And Lara's subsequently feeling really frustrated and stuck and wants to know how to break this contact nap cycle, especially when her baby will settle for dad, but not for mum. Mm, tricky one. Look, I would say one of the things I often suggest to families in this situation is if your baby will nap in the pram, then you're just gonna do pram naps for a week or even two weeks. Just get out and about or car
Fallon Cook (29:03)
naps so they're forgetting that they're sometimes held all
Laura Conway (29:03)
naps, so they're forgetting that they're sometimes held or...
Fallon Cook (29:06)
the way to sleep and they're practicing even in the pram if they're laying flat it's so similar to settling in the cot except there's a bit of movement so that can really help it just gives you a break you're not worrying i do not care if this baby only has 40 minute naps two 40 minute naps or how old is the baby again maybe it doesn't say okay so however many 40 minute naps you need to get through the day β it's totally fine it's just it's just something you have to go through when you
Laura Conway (29:06)
to sleep and they're practicing even in the pram if they're laying flat it's so similar to settling in the cot except there's a bit of movement so that can really help it just gives you a break you're not worrying I do not care if this baby only has 40 minute naps do you 40 minute naps? old is the baby again? She doesn't say. Okay so however many 40 minute naps you need to get through the day it's totally fine it's just it's just something you have to go through when you
Fallon Cook (29:32)
go to, β
Laura Conway (29:32)
go to
work on cot settling for naps. Often naps are really short, but once they get a bit more practice, they'll start to link their sleep cycles in the cot and maybe they'll extend those naps if that's what they're actually needing. Not forgetting that sometimes when they contact nap, they will take great long naps, not because they need them, but because it's warm and comforting and sometimes that can start to impact the nights. So that's how I would start it. I do a lot of practice in the pram or the car so that...
Fallon Cook (29:34)
you know, work on cot settling for naps. Often naps are really short, but once they get a bit more practice, they'll start to link their sleep cycles in the cot. Maybe they'll extend those naps if that's what they're actually needing. Not forgetting that sometimes when they contact nap, they will take great long naps, not because they need them, but because it's warm and comforting. And sometimes that can start to impact the nights. β so that's how I would start it. do a lot of practice in the pram or the car, β so that holding to sleep is becoming a thing of the past. And then.
Laura Conway (29:59)
holding to sleep is becoming a thing of the past. And then
I would replicate your approach at night in the cot when you're feeling ready and just persist until you get that nap happening. β It might be worth doing some tweaks to the daily rhythm as well to make sure sleep pressure is definitely high enough when you go to put the baby down in the cot. I β think it's a good starting point. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and be mindful of not bringing bedtime too much earlier.
Fallon Cook (30:02)
I would replicate your approach at night in the cot when you're feeling ready and just persist until you get that nap happening. It might be worth doing some tweaks to the daily rhythm as well to make sure sleep pressure is definitely high enough when you go to put the baby down in the cot. But look, think that's a good starting point. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and be mindful of not... β
bringing bedtime too much earlier
Laura Conway (30:27)
on the days where your little one is only having the two short naps. So yeah, get a really firm idea of what the sleep need is. Yeah, work through their needs. Have a daily rhythm that absolutely fits their sleep needs. Because I feel like that's so often the problem. There's not a strict daily rhythm in place. And so they go to make changes to settling, take days just to settle. Everything gets really, really wobbly. Suddenly you've got a baby with low sleep pressure. You're trying to settle them. It's a nightmare. Yeah. Everyone's
Fallon Cook (30:27)
on the days where your little one is only having the two short naps. So yeah, get a really firm idea of what the sleep need is. Yeah, I'd work through that unique sleep needs chapter, have a daily rhythm that absolutely fits their sleep needs. Cause I feel like that's so often the problem. There's not a strict daily rhythm in place. And so they go to make changes to settling, take days just to settle. Everything gets really, really wobbly. And then suddenly you've got a baby with low sleep pressure. You're trying to settle them. It's a nightmare. β
Everyone's upset. Everyone's upset. We're
Laura Conway (30:55)
upset. Everyone's upset.
Fallon Cook (30:57)
all crying. All right. Clara has a four month old with a 12 hour sleep need and has recently started introducing the quick fade approach. She wants to know in step two, whether the deescalations in patting and humming occurs during each settle. like 10 pats, then nine, then eight, or on sequential settles.
Laura Conway (30:57)
Yeah.
a four month old with a 12 hour sleep need and has recently started introducing the quick fade approach. She wants to know in step two, whether the deescalations in patting and humming occurs during each settle. β like 10 pats, then nine, then eight, or on sequential settles.
Thinking about this, I'm reading it. She would also like to reduce night feeds from three down to one, but is finding it hard because she wakes every three hours and will only settle with feeding.
Fallon Cook (31:22)
I'm thinking about this as I'm reading it. She would also like to reduce night feeds from three down to one, but is finding it hard because she wakes every three hours and will only settle with feeding.
Is this just a phase that will pass on its own or should they try harder at cot settling overnight? Would ensuring her baby is awake after the feed before being put back in her bassinet help?
Laura Conway (31:31)
Is this just a phase that will pass on its own or should they try harder at cot settling overnight? Would ensuring her baby is awake after the feed before being put back in her bassinet help?
Yes is the answer to that last question. Yep. Tick. β I would say that what's potentially happening is your baby is still waking frequently overnight because she's still falling asleep with pats, which then
Fallon Cook (31:41)
Yes, the answer to that last question. Yep, we've done that one. Tick. And I would say that what's potentially happening is your baby is still waking frequently over...
because she's still falling asleep with pats which then...
She's waking up and going, where's my pats? Yeah, where's the patting? look, I think it probably comes down to your baby's temperament as to exactly how you wean off the patting. So what often I would suggest is that you might pat 10 times and lift your hand off for 10 seconds β and then pat 10 times and lift your hand off for 10 seconds and do that a few times and then just pat 10
Laura Conway (31:58)
She's waking up. Yeah, where's the patting? So look, I think it probably comes down to your baby's temperament as to exactly how you wean off the patting. So what often I would suggest is that you might pat 10 times and lift your hand off for 10 seconds.
β and then pat 10 times and lift your hand off for 10 seconds and do that a few times and then just pat 10 times,
Fallon Cook (32:24)
lift your hand off for 15 seconds. The number of pats is relatively the same but you're increasing the length of time your hands are off your baby. If you've got quite a chilled baby you might find that you can increase the length of time your hands are off them overnight quite quickly so kind of within a settle but if you have a baby that has a very sensitive temperament you might actually have to do it
Laura Conway (32:25)
lift your hand off for 15 seconds. You keep the number of pats relatively the same, but you're increasing the length of time your hands are off your baby. If you've got quite a chilled baby, you might find that you can increase the length of time your hands are off them overnight quite quickly. So kind of within a settle. But if you have a baby that has a very sensitive temperament, you might actually have to do it.
over a number quite a few nights. So it might be that for one settle, you're just taking your
Fallon Cook (32:48)
over a number quite a few nights so it might be that for one settle you're just taking your
hand off for 10 seconds at a time, the next night you're taking your hands off 15 seconds at a time and so forth. But it will really depend on your baby's temperament. Yeah. And know that also if you're finding it really hard to make those changes, perhaps it's going to be easier for you to simply pivot to the supported accelerated. It's definitely popular that
Laura Conway (32:54)
hand off for 10 seconds at a time. The next night, you're taking your hands off for 15 seconds at a time and so forth. But it will really depend on your baby's temperament. Yeah. And know that also if you're finding it really hard to make those changes, perhaps it's going to be easier for you to simply pivot to the supported accelerated approach.
Fallon Cook (33:16)
isn't it? A of parents do quick fade until they're settling really nicely and easily in their cot and then use supported accelerated to quickly phase out.
Laura Conway (33:16)
parents do quick fade until they're settling really nicely and easily in their cot and then you support it accelerated to quickly fade out
Fallon Cook (33:24)
the patting and humming it's a quick way to go and definitely something to think about. Yeah and just on the feeding β
Laura Conway (33:24)
the patting and humming. It's a quick way to go and definitely something to think about. Yeah, and just on the feeding, β you're a four month old so you want to go down to one feed overnight. I would be looking at moving if she's currently on three. I would think about having two times overnight that you're gonna feed.
Fallon Cook (33:31)
β you're a four month old, so you want to go down to one feed overnight. I would be looking at moving, if she's currently on three, I would think about having two times overnight that you're gonna feed.
So perhaps when four hours has elapsed since the last feed, and then again, do that for three nights and then drop down to just one feed, perhaps the first time your baby wakes up after 1 a.m. But only doing that if your baby is developing well, you haven't given any other, yeah gaining weight, you been offered any other advice.
Laura Conway (33:43)
β so perhaps when four hours has elapsed since the last feed and then again, β do that for three nights and then drop down to just one feed. Perhaps the first time your baby wakes up after 1am. β but only doing that if your baby is developing well, you haven't been given any other, yeah, anyway, you haven't been offered any other advice
Fallon Cook (34:01)
by any health professionals. yeah definitely. Okay so Suzy has written in she has a 14 month old who's made big progress with sleep.
Laura Conway (34:01)
by any health professionals. β So Suzy has written in, she has a 14 month old who's made big progress with sleep.
Fallon Cook (34:12)
He needs about 11 and a half hours sleep for 24 hours. He takes two naps totaling two hours and sleeps from 9 until 6 30. They've trialed moving him to one nap occasionally but he simply can't manage the longer morning wake window yet. He falls asleep in his cot with them sitting near
Laura Conway (34:12)
He needs about 11 and a half hours sleep for 24 hours. He takes two naps totaling two hours and sleeps from nine until six 30. They've trialed moving him to one nap occasionally, but he simply can't manage the longer morning wake window yet. He falls asleep in his cot with them sitting nearby
Fallon Cook (34:31)
by and with very little hands-on support. The main issue they're having is that he predictably wakes up at 2am every night.
Laura Conway (34:32)
and with very little hands on support. The main issue they're having is that he predict predictably wakes up at 2 a.m. every night.
Fallon Cook (34:42)
They usually bring him into bed because when they try to resettle him in the cot he often wakes up within 30 minutes. They want to stop co-sleeping by resettling him in his cot overnight and possibly sleeping on a mattress in his room and then gradually fading out their presence. I just wanted to check with us if we think that
Laura Conway (34:42)
They usually bring him into bed because when they try to resettle him in the cot, he often wakes up within 30 minutes. They want to stop co-sleeping by resettling him in his cot overnight and possibly sleeping on a mattress in his room and then gradually fading out their presence. They just wanted to check with us if we think that's
Fallon Cook (35:01)
going to be the best approach.
Laura Conway (35:01)
going to be the best approach. Yeah, I think it's a great idea, but I would absolutely push for one nap first because it's going to make you laugh so much. Yes.
Fallon Cook (35:03)
Yeah, I think it's a great idea, but I would absolutely push for one nap first because it's going to make your life so much easier. Yes.
He's waking every 30 minutes after that 2am. I would say our sleep pressure is probably a little bit low. Maybe so often when they got a lower sleep need like around 11 and a half hours, they just don't do super well overnight when they're having two hours of day sleep. So when you drop to one nap, yeah, try two hours at first. You just might find that you need to move to an hour and a half total reasonably quickly. Just something to keep in mind.
Laura Conway (35:11)
He's waking every 30 minutes after that 2am I would say our sleep pressure is probably a little bit low. Yeah. Maybe so often when they've got a lower sleep need like around 11 and a half hours, they just don't do super well overnight when they're having two hours of day sleep. So when you drop to one nap, yeah, try two hours at first. You just might find that you need to move to an hour and a half total. Just something to keep in mind.
Fallon Cook (35:33)
β but I would plan when you're ready, do a few days where you're really got lots of distractions, things to keep him awake.
Laura Conway (35:34)
But I would plan when you're ready, do a few days where you're really got lots of distractions, things to keep him awake.
Fallon Cook (35:40)
β so that he just has the one nap. β and you push him through to his bedtime. It's going to take a little bit of pushing and you know, distraction, but it's going to massively help sleep pressure will be so much higher overnight. And when you're trying to resettle him in his cot, it's, it's going to go well. Just.
Laura Conway (35:40)
So that he just has the one nap β and you push him through to his bedtime. It's going to take a little bit of pushing and know distraction. But it's going to massively help. Sleep pressure will be so much higher overnight. When you're trying to resettle him in his cot, it's going to go well. Just
decide exactly how you're going to resettle him in the cot. Keep it super consistent for every settle. And you'll have a couple of tricky settles but he'll get the hang of it pretty quickly. He'll be able to fall asleep there.
Fallon Cook (35:58)
decide exactly how you're going to resettle him in the cot. Keep it super consistent for every settle. β And you'll have a couple of tricky settles, but he'll get the hang of it pretty quickly. He knows how to fall asleep there.
The sleep pressure is going to be high enough. He's just going to be cranky. He's thinking, why aren't you taking me into your bed? Like normal. And he's going to have a big opinion about that. But you know, you're there, you're supporting him. β It's totally reasonable for him to, go back to sleep in his cot. And by the time you do use a parental feeding approach at bedtime, there's a good chance
Laura Conway (36:08)
the sleep pressure is going to be high enough, he's just going be cranky. He's thinking why aren't you taking me into your bed? normal, and he's going to have a big opinion about that, but you you're there, you're supporting him. It's totally reasonable for him to go back to sleep. And if you do use a parental fading approach at bedtime, there's a good chance
Fallon Cook (36:28)
with that higher sleep pressure overnight because he's on the one nap consistently during the day
Laura Conway (36:28)
with that higher sleep pressure overnight because he's on the one nap consistently during the day.
Fallon Cook (36:33)
that when he wakes up, sees you're no longer there, he'll do his, oh, they're about to come back. They'll be back in a minute because that's the parental fading approach that you've used and go back to sleep easily without waking up going, oh, where are they? They were sat beside me as I went to sleep and now they're not here anymore. And I go into your bed. Yeah, 100%. I think that's great advice. Nicole sent in a question. Oh, she sent that through, I think maybe on Facebook DM.
Laura Conway (36:33)
that when he wakes up, sees you're no longer there, he'll do his, β they're about to come back. They'll be back in a minute because that's the parental fading approach that you've used and go back to sleep easily without waking up going, where are they? They were sat beside me as I went to sleep and now they're not here anymore. And I wanna go into your bed. Yeah, 100%, I think that's great advice. Nicole sent in a question. β she sent it through, I think maybe on Facebook DMs.
Fallon Cook (36:58)
So anyone listening in, try to email us.
Laura Conway (36:59)
So anyone listening in, try to email us.
Fallon Cook (37:01)
β So often we miss messages on our social media accounts. just a little note, definitely send your questions via email. They're less likely to get missed. β But the lovely Nicole sent us a message. She has a toddler who is 23 months old, who had poor sleep since she was three months old. She's finally sleeping through the night. Hallelujah. But two things are happening that they need help with. Firstly, why does she wake up upset?
Laura Conway (37:01)
So often we miss messages on our social media accounts. So just a little note, definitely send your questions via email. They're less likely to get missed. But the lovely Nicole sent us a message. She has a toddler who is 23 months old, who had poor sleep since she was three months old. She's finally sleeping through the night. two things are happening that they need help with. Firstly, why does she wake up upset?
Fallon Cook (37:28)
Second, why does it still take up to an hour for her to fall asleep? She has a sleep need of around 12 hours. They've pushed bedtime later to around 9 p.m. To be asleep at 9 p.m. But she is still fighting sleep taking up to two hours. We need to see a sleep diary for this one, don't Yeah, we do need a sleep diary. One of the things I'm curious about Nicole is that you've said that you push bedtime later so that for your toddler to be asleep around 9 p.m. So I'm wondering whether you're pushing, I wonder if
Laura Conway (37:28)
second, why does it still take up to an hour for her to fall asleep? She has a sleep need of around 12 hours. They've pushed bedtime later to around 9 p.m. to be asleep at 9 p.m. But she is still fighting sleep, taking up to two hours. Hmm. Need to do sleep diary for this one, Yeah, we do need a sleep diary. One of the things I'm curious about Nicole is that you've said that you push bedtime later so that for your toddler to...
be asleep around 9pm. So I'm wondering whether you're pushing, I wonder at
Fallon Cook (37:58)
at
Laura Conway (37:58)
what
Fallon Cook (37:58)
what point you're starting to put your little one down. Because if you're putting them down at eight o'clock with the aim of them going to sleep by nine, I would be making a bit of an adjustment and not actually taking them into their bedroom until...
Laura Conway (37:58)
point you're starting to put your little one down. Because if you're putting them down at eight o'clock with the aim of them going to sleep by nine, I would be making a bit of a adjustment and not actually taking them into their bedroom until just before nine o'clock so that you're bringing that sleep onset time down and also just holding that wake up really steady.
Fallon Cook (38:15)
just before nine o'clock so that you're bringing that sleep onset time down and also just holding that wake up really steady.
Laura Conway (38:24)
So remember that when we're looking at the overall daily schedule, when we're trying to help little ones sleep through the night, we're trying to fill this bucket with water, like our bucket of sleep pressure. And if we aren't holding everything steady, it's like poking holes in the bucket and all the water rushes out and then it's really hard to ever
Fallon Cook (38:24)
So remember that when we're looking at the overall daily schedule, when we're trying to help little ones sleep through the night, we're trying to fill this bucket with water, like a bucket of sleep pressure and if we aren't holding everything steady, it's like poking holes in the bucket and all the water rushes out and then it's really hard to
feel it completely. So make sure that the bedtime and wake up time
Laura Conway (38:46)
fill it completely. So make sure that the β bedtime and wake up time
Fallon Cook (38:52)
are consistent, or particularly the wake up time is consistent, and that you're not putting your 23 month old to bed until just before you actually want them to fall asleep. So you're not spending an hour in there beforehand. Yeah, I'd be keen to know too, you know, when parents say, a sleep need of around about 12 hours, I always think, no, what is it? What is the actual average? Like, if it
Laura Conway (38:52)
are consistent, well particularly the wake-up time is consistent, and that you're not putting your 23 month old to bed until just before you actually want them to fall asleep, so you're not spending an hour in there beforehand. I have a thing to know too, you know when parents say, sleep need of around about 12 hours, I always think, no what is it? Yes. What is the actual average? Like if it
averages 12 hours, great, so if they're going to bed at 9pm,
Fallon Cook (39:15)
So if they're to bed at 9pm,
is your aim to have them up by 7am? So they've got two hours left in the tank for a day nap or are they not napping anymore? In which case you're going to do 9pm to 9am. Like there's a lot of ways to work it. Identify exactly what their sleep need is and then come up with a schedule that fits it, stick to it strictly. β and before you know it, you know, if you were on, got the daily rhythm nailed, you're going to put them down to sleep and they're going to conk out so quickly. They're going to be out like a light. β but look, if it's,
Laura Conway (39:19)
is you're aimed to have them up by 7 a.m. So they've got two hours left in the tank for a day nap. Are they not napping anymore? In which case you're gonna do 9 p.m. to 9 a.m. There's a lot of ways to work it. Identify exactly what their sleep need is and then come up with a schedule that fits it, stick to it strictly. And before you know it, if you've got the daily rhythm nailed, you're gonna put them down for sleep and they're gonna conk out so quickly. They're gonna be out like a light. But look, if it's
Fallon Cook (39:45)
complicated Nicole and you want somehow
Laura Conway (39:46)
complicated, Nicole, and you want some help.
Fallon Cook (39:48)
Laura and I could look at that sleep diary in about five seconds I'd be like right this is what you gotta do then we'll be able to your question about why she's waking up upset in a more sensible way. Cause I don't know actually whether that's waking up from a nap upset in the morning, overnight, exactly what's happening. So.
Laura Conway (39:48)
Laura and I could look at that sleep diary in about five seconds and be like, right. Yeah, this is what you need to do. Yeah. And then we'll be able to answer your question about why she's waking up upset in a more sensible way. Because I don't know actually whether that's waking up from a nap upset in the morning, overnight, exactly what's happening. So, yeah.
Fallon Cook (40:09)
And it could just be that this is a toddler who
Laura Conway (40:10)
β
Fallon Cook (40:12)
hates transitioning from awake to asleep and asleep to awake and hates other transitions like getting out of pajamas and into clothes, getting into the car, getting out of the car. It does a little. β All right. Our next question is from Julia. So Julia listened to an episode of a well-known podcast where a parenting expert claimed that sleep training causes the
Laura Conway (40:12)
hates transitioning from awake to asleep and asleep to awake and it hates other transitions like getting out of pyjamas and into clothes, getting into the car, getting out of the car. Sounds like you're talking from experience there, Val. Good. All right. Our next question is from Julia. So Julia listened to an episode of a well-known podcast where a parenting expert claimed that sleep training causes the
amygdala
Fallon Cook (40:39)
to
Laura Conway (40:40)
to become inactive for life, ultimately causing stress and leading to ADHD. Julia wants to know what's the science behind her claims and should we take her views seriously? Valen! No. We won't name and shame. Laura and I did a little digging on this person and you know people can make up all sorts of nonsense.
Fallon Cook (40:41)
become inactive for life, ultimately causing stress and leading to ADHD. Julia wants to know what's the science behind her claims and should we take her views seriously? That's a resounding no. We won't name and shame. Laura and I did a little digging on this person and you know people can make up all sorts of nonsense. Anybody can call themselves
Laura Conway (41:07)
anybody can call themselves an
Fallon Cook (41:09)
an expert, I think this one calls herself a parenting expert or something else. That's not a thing. It's not a thing. There are people who have some relevant background experience or some slightly relevant degree who like we were talking about earlier, just don't stay in their lane. They just don't stay in their lane. And that person is not a neuroscientist. Saying that a part of the brain becomes inactive for life is just so ridiculous.
Laura Conway (41:09)
expert. think this one calls itself a parenting expert or something else. That's not a thing. No, it's not a thing. There are people who have some relevant background experience or some slightly relevant degree who like we were talking about earlier, just don't stay in their lane. They just don't stay in their lane. And that person is not a neuroscientist. Saying that a part of the brain becomes inactive for life is just so ridiculous.
They would be health warnings β No, no gosh seen this and it seems so believable Yeah, and it makes me so furious because these people who have no idea what they're talking about Swanning say something absolutely horrific and then walk away and they will never see the repercussions
Fallon Cook (41:36)
That would be health warnings. But I'm also, not laughing at Julia for believing that because I've seen this and it seems so believable.
And it makes me so furious because these people who have no idea what they're talking about swan in say something absolutely horrific and then walk away and they will never see the repercussions. They will never work with those parents who have babies or I'm on my soap, on my high horse now,
but they never going to work with the parents who, whose eyes are hanging out of the head, whose babies and toddlers have sleep disorders, know, actual diagnosable sleep disorders.
Laura Conway (42:05)
but they're never gonna work with the parents whose eyes are hanging out of the head, whose babies and toddlers have sleep disorders, know, actual diagnosable sleep disorders
who are just on their last legs, desperate for help. They're never there to see that. They have no idea the harm that they're causing, but they usually have something to sell or they're fame. And this one, I think, just really wants a lot of attention.
Fallon Cook (42:16)
who are just on their last legs, desperate for help. They're never there to see that. They have no idea the harm that they're causing, but they usually have something to sell or they're seeking fame or, and this one I think just really wants a lot of attention.
I think that podcast host has made some questionable decisions, β in the past in terms of guests. β it's just such a shame because I get it. If I wasn't.
Laura Conway (42:33)
I think that podcast host has made some questionable decisions in the past in terms of guests. It's just such a shame because I get it. If I wasn't
in science, if I didn't know about sleep and I was a new parent again, I would find it very compelling too. It would absolutely have tricked me.
Fallon Cook (42:44)
in science if I didn't know about sleep and I you know was a new parent again I would find it very compelling too it would absolutely have tricked me yeah
you know what hope of parents got when there's this not I think we're just going to see such a rise in like the truth isn't attractive anymore no
Laura Conway (42:57)
you know what hope have parents got when there's this not I think we're just gonna see such a rise in like the truth isn't attractive anymore no
everybody needs more attention than everyone else because everyone's desperate for money or in a cost of living crisis people will do unhinged things when they need to feed their families yeah in some ways I'm sympathetic to that β but you know at what cost yeah it's ridiculous sleep training causes ADHD for goodness sake
Fallon Cook (43:05)
Everybody needs more attention than everyone else because everyone's desperate for money. We're in a cost of living crisis People will do unhinged things when they need to feed their families. I mean in some ways I'm sympathetic to that β But you know at what cost to people? Ridiculous sleep training causes ADHD for goodness sake.
I would Julia I would put this in the same category as Tylenol causing autism. Yeah, and it's wildly offensive to
Laura Conway (43:25)
I would, Julia, I would put this in the same category as Tylenol causing autism. Yeah, and it's wildly offensive to
people with ADHD because it implies that, well, something happened that broke you. ADHD people are not broken. No, they're not broken. It's a neurotype. It's a natural part of what humans are. Yeah. Like, how dare these people?
Fallon Cook (43:35)
people with ADHD because it implies that, well, something happened that broke you. ADHD people are not broken. No, they're not broken. It's a neuro type. It's a natural part of what humans are. Like how dare these people.
How dare they? Oh God, it makes me so furious. It makes me so furious. And so yeah, Julia, I'm sorry that you saw that. I'm sorry for so many parents who would have listened to that very popular podcast who thought, oh my God, I've been settling my baby in the cot. Maybe they're amygdala will never work again. But
Laura Conway (43:51)
How dare they? Oh God, it makes me so furious. It makes me so furious. And so yeah, Julia, I'm sorry that you saw that. I'm sorry for so many parents who would have listened to that very popular podcast. Who thought, oh my God, I've been settling my baby in the cot. Maybe their amygdala will never work again.
Yeah, it's absolute nonsense. And one thing we did notice when we looked into this particular person, we went to their website, had a look and they are citing a whole bunch of articles. And you go and have a look at those articles like, oh, maybe.
Fallon Cook (44:09)
Yeah, it's absolute nonsense. β and one thing we did notice when we looked into this particular person, we went to their website, had a look and they are citing a whole bunch of articles and you go and have a look at those articles. Like, maybe
have they done some science? Maybe they have. No, they're citing all the opinion pieces. They managed somehow to get published in.
Laura Conway (44:20)
Have they done some science? Maybe they have. No, they're citing all the opinion pieces. They managed somehow to get published in
newspapers, not scientific journals. No. Just newspapers. That's right. And when we're talking about articles in the academic literature, we're talking about articles that have gone through a rigorous peer review process and have been published in
Fallon Cook (44:29)
newspapers, not scientific journals, just newspapers. So when we're talking about articles in the academic literature, we're talking about articles that have gone through a rigorous peer review process and have been published in
esteemed, regularly, not regulated, peer reviewed, peer reviewed journals, where other sleep scientists have reviewed the work that has been done and determined if that
Laura Conway (44:44)
esteemed, regulate, not regulated but β what's the right word? Peer-reviewed β journals β where other sleep scientists have reviewed the work that has been done and determined if that
Fallon Cook (44:59)
is has been done well or not and if it hasn't done well making sure the author is noting what the weaknesses are and what future direction should be so when we say we've published articles we're not saying we've published opinion pieces in the age
Laura Conway (44:59)
β has been done well or not and if it hasn't done well making sure the author is noting what the weaknesses are and what future direction should be so when we say we've published articles we're not saying we've published opinion pieces in the age
We're seeing, we have published rigorous academic articles and this person hasn't so... β It's so hard to get scientific papers published. We'd go and talk to the Herald site any old
Fallon Cook (45:15)
we have published rigorous academic articles and this person hasn't so β it's so hard to get scientific papers published too isn't it like we go and talk to the heralds on any old
Laura Conway (45:29)
day. It ain't going to change us. Anyway, get off our high horse again. Take a deep breath. Alright Laura, we've got Katie who writes that...
Fallon Cook (45:29)
day but yeah yeah it ain't gonna change the science anyway we'll get off our high horse again my heart rates up β
All right, Laura, we've got Katie who writes that
their 13 month old sleep needs have increased by about an hour over the past two weeks and they're struggling to find a rhythm. She sleeps 7 p.m. to around 6.30 to 7 a.m. most nights with one, four or 5 a.m. They've tried a 6.30 a.m. wake up for a week but she was so tired she wasn't able to keep her eyes open past 6.30 p.m.
Laura Conway (45:42)
their 13 month old sleep needs have increased by about an hour over the past two weeks and they're struggling to find a rhythm. She sleeps 7 p.m. to around 6.30 to 7 a.m. most nights with one 4 or 5 a.m. feed. They've tried a 6.30 a.m. wake up for a week but she was so tired she wasn't able to keep her eyes open past 6.30 p.m.
Fallon Cook (46:06)
She takes one 90 minute nap or two 45 minute naps depending on her wake up time and first nap time. By 5pm, she's extremely tired and cranky, but even a 15 minute nap then delays bedtime over an hour. They've trialed many things each time for a week at a time as suggested. Oh, Katie, you're my hero. love it. I'm always saying to Bruce, just do it for a full week and then you know. So well done, Katie. Katie says she's nervous about an earlier bedtime as past trials caused 5.30am wakes or
Laura Conway (46:06)
She takes one 90 minute nap or two 45 minute naps depending on her wake up time and first nap time. By 5 p.m. she's extremely tired and cranky, but even a 15 minute nap then delays bedtime over and over. They've trialed many things each time for a week at a time as suggested. Katie, you're my hero, I love it.
Yeah, just do it for a full week and then you know. Katie says she's nervous about an earlier bedtime as past trials caused 530 a.m. wakes or
a horrible first wake window, but they are open to retrying. What do we suggest? β Katie, okay. I think what β first of all sleep needs increasing
Fallon Cook (46:36)
horrible first wake window but they are open to retrying what do we suggest? Katie okay I think what first of all sleep needs increasing
is a thing we more often see sleep needs decreasing but there is a minority of
Laura Conway (46:49)
is a thing. We more often see sleep needs decreasing but there is a minority of β
children that do have β sleep needs that increase. Potentially there may have been something going on for your child, maybe they were fighting a bug for example that meant that they were a little bit more sleepy, but if you haven't found that there's β any β explainable β reason like that then
Fallon Cook (46:55)
children that do have sleep needs that increase potentially there may have been something going on for your child maybe they were fighting a bug for example that meant that they were a little bit more sleepy but if you haven't found that there's any explainable reason like that then
let's just say Katie your baby is your toddler is now sleeping a little bit longer wonderful
Laura Conway (47:18)
Let's just say Katie, your baby is, your toddler is now sleeping a little bit longer. Wonderful.
At 13 months old, I would give moving to one nap a red hot go again. I think that that is going to be the key. And β so aiming for that 90 minute nap in the middle of the day. If she falls asleep earlier in the day,
Fallon Cook (47:25)
At 13 months old, I would give moving to one nap a red hot go. Again, I think that that is going to be the key. And β so aiming for that 90 minute nap in the middle of the day. If she falls asleep earlier in the day
and only does 45 minutes, I would just bring bedtime a little bit earlier that night rather than offering a second nap in the afternoon.
Laura Conway (47:46)
and only does 45 minutes, I would just bring bedtime a little bit earlier that night rather than offering a second nap in the afternoon and
Fallon Cook (47:55)
β and β ride that out for a week so rather than
Laura Conway (47:56)
ride that out for a week. rather than doing what you're doing at the moment, which is switching between a 90 minute nap and two 45 minute naps, I would make that change. And if she only has one 45 minute,
Fallon Cook (48:02)
doing what you're doing at the moment, which is switching between a 90 minute nap and two 45 minute naps. I would make that change. And if she only has one 45 minute
Laura Conway (48:11)
nap at 11am, just get as close to bedtime as you can. She might go to bed a little bit earlier that night and then wake her up in the morning and try again the next day.
Fallon Cook (48:11)
nap at 11 a.m., just get as close to bedtime as you can. She might go to bed a little bit earlier that night and then wake her up in the morning and try again the next day. Yeah, it sounds like they're on that cusp between needing two and one naps and it's always a hard time for parents. So sometimes we're just gonna do a really big push. I agree.
Laura Conway (48:27)
It's really hard. Sometimes we just gotta do a really big push. I agree.
Fallon Cook (48:32)
If you're varying between one and two naps, every day, sleep pressure is some way different at different times of the day. it's confusing and really tricky. And I think, yeah, don't go for an earlier bedtime if that β brings wake up time earlier. Like, I mean, as you say, Laura, sometimes it might need to be earlier if you just absolutely can't get it there. But try again each day and try to. β
Laura Conway (48:32)
If you're varying between one and two naps, every day, sleep pressure's some way different at different times of the day, and it's confusing and really tricky. And I think, yeah, don't go for an earlier bedtime if that brings wake up time earlier. I mean, as you say, Laura, sometimes it might need to be earlier if you just absolutely can't get it there. But try again each day and try to...
push through. And often we just need so many distractions and plan, lots of busyness, lots of guests to the house. Yeah, water play. I'm a big fan of taking plastic utensil, kitchen utensils into the bath or taking the bucket from the, or the, the water, little mini watering can from the garage into the bath, something that's just novel, that's really different and exciting. And that will distract her. And it will pass, Katie. It feels like you're in the trenches right now, but...
Fallon Cook (48:52)
push through. And often we just need so many distractions and plan lots of busyness, lots of guests to the house. It can really help to stretch them out. I'm a big fan of taking plastic utensils, kitchen utensils into the bath or taking the bucket from the, or the water, little mini watering can from the garage. just pass something that's just novel. Really different. That's really different and exciting. And that will distract her. And it will pass, Katie. It feels like you're in the trenches right now, but
before you know it, she'll adapt to
Laura Conway (49:21)
you know it she'll adapt to
Fallon Cook (49:22)
one nap and be off and away it's just a crappy few weeks to go through yeah all right who's reading out the next one I don't remember your turn
Laura Conway (49:22)
one nap and be off and away yeah it is yeah β all right Helen yeah I think it's I think so β Helen β worked with me and for her firstborn who's now three and still sleeping beautifully β
Fallon Cook (49:37)
for her first born who's now three and still sleeping beautifully. Well done Laura, round of applause. We need sound effects. Little cheer. I'll see if I can find one. Maybe I'll edit one in here if I can find
one. β So Helen now has a five week old baby who is only rocked to sleep during the day and fed to sleep with co-sleeping at night. Helen wants to know if she can use the quick tapered approach now or whether she might get better results starting in a month. She adds...
Laura Conway (49:50)
So Helen now has a five week old baby who is only rock to sleep during the day and fed to sleep with co-sleeping at night. Helen wants to know if she can use the quick tapered approach now or whether she might get better results starting in a month. She adds
Fallon Cook (50:07)
that
Laura Conway (50:07)
that she needs to be flexible having a three year old with her so cannot be 100 % consistent with the approach. Could that be a problem? No, you've got a five week
Fallon Cook (50:08)
she needs to be flexible having a three-year-old with her so cannot be 100 % consistent with the approach. Could that be a problem? No, you've got a five-week-old. Five weeks is still super super little rocking to sleep during the day feeding to sleep really really super normal but it sounds like Helen is wanting to work on some cot settling which is a great idea because you've got a three-year-old so having your hands free is definitely going to help. I would say at this age the most concerning thing
Laura Conway (50:20)
Five weeks is still super, super little rocking to sleep during the day, feeding to sleep really, really super normal. But it sounds like Helen is wanting to work on some cot settling, which is a great idea because you've got a three year old. Yes. Having your hands free is definitely going to help. I would say at this age, the most concerning thing
is, and people know this about me, I'm just really not.
Fallon Cook (50:37)
is, and people know this about me, I'm just really not
Laura Conway (50:40)
keen on co-sleeping with really little babies because it does increase risk. So I would say you could start with your priority potentially being just to use the quick fade approach at bedtime and overnight so that they're settling in their cot or even just holding them to sleep but then putting them in their cot. And I think you'll sleep better too, Helen, knowing that you've absolutely minimized risk β and your baby's just getting that bit of practice. And as they get more more familiar with being in their cot or bassinet for
Fallon Cook (50:40)
keen on co-sleeping with really little babies because it does increase risk. So I would say you could start with your priority potentially being just to use the quick fade approach at bedtime and overnight so that they're settling in their cot or even just holding them to sleep, but then putting them in their cot. And I think you'll sleep better too, Helen, knowing that you've absolutely minimized risk β and your baby's just getting that bit of practice. And as they get more and more familiar with being in their cot or bassinet for
sleep it just
Laura Conway (51:07)
sleep, β
Become so much easier. I think during the day as well. They're not shocked to be put down in the cot β They generally do
Fallon Cook (51:10)
becomes so much easier I think during the day as well for naps they're not shocked to be put down in the cot they generally do
Laura Conway (51:17)
pretty well with that. So yeah, I wouldn't be too worried if you're not consistent with the approach You might just decide what times you you know at this young age group. It's about practicing when you can Yeah, actually, yeah any experience is good experience β Don't worry if you can't apply the same approach every time but maybe decide on the times when you will so for me I'd be going okay I'm gonna definitely use that approach overnight so they're in their cot. I get good
Fallon Cook (51:17)
pretty well with that. yeah, I wouldn't be too worried if you're not consistent with the approach. You might just decide what times you, β you know, at this young age group, it's about practicing when you can, essentially. Any experience is good experience. β Don't worry if you can't apply the same approach every time, but maybe decide on the times when you will. So for me, I'd be going, okay, I'm going to definitely use that approach overnight. So they're in their cot, I get good
Laura Conway (51:40)
sleep they're gonna get used to the cot you know that's how I would personally do it. What do you think Laura? Yeah and maybe β
Fallon Cook (51:40)
sleep. They're going to get used to the cot. You know, that's how I would personally do it. What do you think, Laura?
during the day, think about carrier naps β or pram naps whilst you're also looking after your three-year-old and you might pick β one or two naps a day where you give the... β
Laura Conway (51:47)
during the day think about carrier naps or pram naps whilst you're also looking after your three-year-old β and you might pick β one or two naps a day where you give the β tapered approach you go β but at this young age really how your baby goes to sleep
Fallon Cook (52:01)
the tapered approach you go. But at this young age, really how your baby goes to sleep
Laura Conway (52:08)
isn't going to be the biggest contributor to them waking up when you put them, you know, when they wake up somewhere different or they come up into light sleep and they're somewhere different. Yeah, that's a problem we can look forward to at four months. But you know, if they hit four months and they've had some experience in the cot, it's not really a surprise or very alarming if you stick with cot settling at that point. They're like,
Fallon Cook (52:08)
isn't going to be the biggest contributor to them waking up when you put them, you know, when they wake up somewhere different or they come up into light sleep and they're somewhere different. Yeah, that's a problem we can look forward to at four months also. But you know, if they hit four months and they've had some experience in the cot, it's not really a surprise or very alarming if you stick with cot settling at that point, you know, they're like,
Laura Conway (52:31)
yeah, I know this place, I'm OK here. Yeah, it's a good thing.
Fallon Cook (52:31)
Yeah, I know this place, I'm okay here. β Yeah, it's a good thing.
All right, and I think lucky last, but we've got three questions from. β
Laura Conway (52:37)
think lucky last, but we've got three questions from...
Fallon Cook (52:42)
So Maddie and Max wrote in, they have a son who's nearly 12 months old. They write that they are our biggest supporters. Wow. This is it. Laura we've met the biggest ones. I love it. β And they've been spreading the word about Sombelle in Alice Springs. How cool. I love Alice Springs. Amazing place. They have a few questions and we'll just go through these one at a time.
Laura Conway (52:42)
So Maddie and Max wrote in, have a son who's nearly 12 months old. They write that they are our biggest supporters. Wow. Laura wrote in, the biggest fan. I love it. And they've been spreading the word about Sombelle in Alice Springs. How cool. I love Alice Springs. Amazing place. They have a few questions and we'll just go through these one at a time.
So Laura, their son's current sleep need is 10 hours and 40 minutes, but a few weeks ago,
Fallon Cook (53:06)
So Laura, their son's current sleep need is 10 hours and 40 minutes, but a few weeks ago
Laura Conway (53:12)
So this was 10 hours. Is there any reason why his sleep needs would increase? For example, he has started walking, dancing, god, baby's dancing is the best! Yeah it is. So he's been going through some pretty big developments. Yeah, look, β like I mentioned when we were answering an earlier question, most
Fallon Cook (53:12)
this was 10 hours. Is there any reason why his sleep needs would increase? For example, he has started walking, dancing, God, baby's dancing is the best. I want a video. So he's been going through some pretty big developments. Yeah, look, β like I mentioned when we were answering an earlier question,
babies sleep and toddler sleep does decrease over time but for some they do have a little uptick in the amount of sleep that they're getting.
Laura Conway (53:32)
babies sleep and toddler sleep does decrease over time, but for some they do have a little uptick in the amount of sleep that they're getting.
For a baby that has a much higher average sleep duration like 14 or 15 hours per 24 hours, half an hour or 40 minutes here and there is not a big deal but I can imagine Maddie and Max that you really noticed that extra 40 minutes β
Fallon Cook (53:42)
For a baby that has a much highest average sleep duration like 14 or 15 hours per 24 hours, half an hour or 40 minutes here and there is not a big deal but I can imagine Maddie and Max that you really notice that extra 40 minutes
Laura Conway (53:58)
given that your little one only had a 10 hour sleep need a few weeks ago. So look it could be β just... β yeah actually there's no quick answer.
Fallon Cook (54:01)
We need a few weeks ago. look it could be just Yeah, actually there's no quick answer
it's just one of those things enjoy it Yeah, hopefully it sticks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent They also say he was waking four times a night So they switched the naps to two 35 to 40 minute naps Rather than one 40 minute nap and one one hour nap and they've done that for the past two weeks, although this
Laura Conway (54:10)
It's just one of those things. Enjoy it Max and Maddie. Hopefully it sticks. They also say he was waking four times a night. So they switched the naps to two 35 to 40 minute naps rather than.
Fallon Cook (54:30)
helped reduce night wakes he's very hard to wake up from his afternoon nap and he is grisly and upset for around 30 to 40 minutes or this is sleep inertia should they let him sleep longer in the afternoon or is this likely to significantly impact his nighttime wakes or is it as simple as pushing his bedtime out and letting him have a longer afternoon nap I know in the longer email that Maddie and Max sent they described that they have experimented with ensuring that they're waking their little one up at the end
Laura Conway (54:49)
I know in the longer email that Maddie and Max sent they described that they have
experimented with ensuring that they're their little one up at the end
of a cycle rather than mid cycle because it does sound like sleep inertia doesn't it? That he's β miserable for that length of time. So look what I would be thinking about doing is either reverting to the nap situation that had before which is a short one in the morning and a longer one in the afternoon and pushing bedtime later
Fallon Cook (55:00)
cycle β rather than β mid cycle because it does sound like sleep inertia doesn't it yeah that he's β miserable for that length of time so what I would be thinking about doing is either reverting to the β situation you had before which is a short one in the morning
and pushing bedtime later or
Laura Conway (55:24)
or, since he's nearly 12 months old, trialling moving to one nap. And see how that goes.
Fallon Cook (55:25)
since he's nearly 12 months old, trialling moving to one nap. And see how that goes. One big long nap that combines the two naps. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good idea. I think I've talked to a lot of families in clinic about this lately. Sometimes we come up with a daily rhythm that fits their daily sleep need, but then it just doesn't work for them. I'm trying to think of the example I had the other week. think they were doing... you talking to me about it? Yeah. I think they were doing like an hour nap and then a 30 minute
Laura Conway (55:34)
Yeah, yeah
we come up with a daily rhythm that fits their daily sleep need but then it just doesn't work for them. I'm trying to give you an example I had the other week. think they were doing... remember you talking to me about it. Yeah I think they were doing like an hour nap and then a 30 minute nap
Fallon Cook (55:52)
nap and it all balanced out the nighttime was just the right length and they were really strictly following the rhythm but the baby was so tired waking up and what could have been told though waking up in the morning and when we talked it through I was like I think that they want a longer night
Laura Conway (55:53)
and it all balanced out the night time was just the right length and they were really strictly following the rhythm but the baby was so tired waking up or could have been told they were waking up in the morning and when we talked it through I was like I think that they want a longer night.
Fallon Cook (56:09)
and two short day naps so we're trialing that anyway I'll get back to you when I a follow-up but sometimes it is the case we might come up with a great daily rhythm but actually what they're needing is something a little bit different so it's good to experiment
Laura Conway (56:09)
and two short day naps. So we're trialling that. Anyway, I'll get back to you when. But sometimes it is the case we might come up with a great daily rhythm, but actually what they're needing is something a little different. So switch experiment.
Yeah. So it could be just that Maddie and Max, your 12 month old does actually prefer to have that longer afternoon nap. And so you could revert to that and just push bedtime a bit later so that you don't lose the benefits that you have had in the reduced overnight wakes.
Fallon Cook (56:22)
just that Maddie and Max, your 12 month old, does actually prefer to have that longer.
afternoon nap and so you could revert to that and just push bedtime a bit later so that you don't lose the benefits that you have had in the reduced overnight wakes.
Yep. Yeah. And finally, they are contemplating changing from the quick fade approach and occasional feeds to sleep to the supported accelerated approach to help reduce the remaining one to two night wakes. Is this likely to help? Yes. 100%. Definitely. If there's some feeding to sleep.
Laura Conway (56:39)
Yeah.
Contemplating changing from the quick fade approach and occasional feeds to sleep to the supportive accelerated approach to help reduce the remaining one to two night wakes. Is this likely to help? Yes. Definitely. there's some feeding to sleep,
Fallon Cook (56:58)
they just keep waking like it won't go away until β that stopped generally like not for every baby but yeah.
Laura Conway (56:58)
they just keep waking. Yeah. They won't go away until that stops, generally. Like not for every baby, but yeah. Yeah. And look, we now know that your baby, Maddie and Max, is able to sleep.
Fallon Cook (57:09)
is able to sleep
big long stretches overnight, sometimes only waking up once or twice rather than four times. So we know they're linking their sleep cycles well and we have to look at is there some motivating factor that might be encouraging them to continue to wake such as those occasional feeds in the night. β
Laura Conway (57:11)
big long stretches overnight, sometimes only waking up once or twice rather than four times. So we know they're linking their sleep cycles well. And we have to look at is there some motivating factor that might be β encouraging them to continue to wake such as those occasional feeds in the night. And
Fallon Cook (57:34)
And of course, thinking about whether moving to the one map is also timely
Laura Conway (57:34)
of course thinking about whether moving to the one nap is also timely.
Fallon Cook (57:40)
to help drive that sleep pressure up at the start of the night. Yeah, absolutely. So thank you so much, Maddie and Max, our biggest supporters. I love that. And just a big shout out to all the Sombelle members who really do live in far flung places. I mean, Springs is not a tiny place. There's a community there, but we know there are members who live incredibly remotely and rurally and
Laura Conway (57:40)
to help drive that sleep pressure up at the start of the night. Yeah, absolutely. So thank you so much, Maddie and Max, our biggest supporters. I that. just a big shout out to all the Sombelle members who really do live in far flung places. I mean, Springs is not a tiny place, there's a community there, but we know there are members who live incredibly remotely and rurally and
Fallon Cook (58:04)
we form an important part of the community
Laura Conway (58:04)
we form an important part of the community.
Fallon Cook (58:08)
for those parents. β And we really, really value you guys. It's very tough when you are living remotely. And we also know we have members who live overseas or a really long way from their family. β
Laura Conway (58:08)
for those parents and we really, really value you guys. It's very tough when you are living remotely and we also know we have members who live overseas or a really long way from their family and
Fallon Cook (58:20)
and they don't have, you know, a lot of practical hands-on support from family around them. Anyway, Laura and I have absolutely been in your shoes, haven't we? In own parenting journey. So there have been many times where we've not had the support we've needed at the time.
Laura Conway (58:20)
they don't have a lot of practical hands-on support from family around them. Anyway, Laura and I have absolutely been in your shoes, haven't we? You parents are in the journey so many times where we've not had the support we've needed at the time.
Anyway, I just want to say that having an online support network or even just tuning into a podcast, it is a really valuable way to increase your sense of community. We're super proud and happy to be able to be part of that for so many families around
Fallon Cook (58:34)
Anyway, I just want to say that it's having an online support network or even just tuning into a podcast. It is a really valuable way to increase your sense of community. We're super proud and happy to be able to be part of that for so many families around.
Laura Conway (58:50)
the world. So to wrap up, guys, I have all these initial appointments open now.
Fallon Cook (58:50)
the world. So to wrap up, guys, I have all these initial appointments open now.
If you would like to spend 50 minutes with me via Telehealth so you can be anywhere in the world except not the USA. I don't know why the insurance companies don't like the USA, but that's how it is. So no matter where you are, pretty much I can see you. A 50 minute appointment, I do. β
Laura Conway (58:58)
If you would like to spend 50 minutes with me via telehealth so can be anywhere in the world except not the USA. I don't know why the insurance companies don't like the USA but that's how it is. β So no matter where you are, pretty much I can see you. A 50 minute appointment I do.
big sleep diary assessment beforehand. We sit down, we do a big deep dive into the history of your child, even things like birth, medical problems. We go through sort of everything to get a really good picture of things. We talk about their temperament. We work out what are your goals, and then we figure out what is a manageable, practical, useful plan to improve your baby or your toddler's sleep. That's what you do in the clinic as well, That's right. In Mulvern, and we have Cali-
Fallon Cook (59:14)
big sleep diary assessment beforehand. We sit down, we do a big deep dive into the history of your child.
Even things like birth, medical problems. We go through sort of everything to get a really good picture of things. We talk about their temperament. We work out what are your goals? And then we figure out what is a manageable, practical, useful plan to improve your baby or your toddler's sleep. That's what you do in the clinic as well, Laura, in Malvern. And we have Kellie
and Lauren and β Cat as well who do this every day too. So if you need that support, if you want that really intense, longer appointment where we write the sleep plan for you,
Laura Conway (59:42)
Cat as well who do this every day too. So if you need that support, if you want that really intense longer appointment where we write the sleep plan for you,
Fallon Cook (59:51)
We do the sleep diary assessment for you. We give you everything you need to take steps forward and the support that you need. β It's our bread and butter. We do it every day and we absolutely love it. So I'll pop a link in the show notes if you're keen to book an appointment, go check that out. And while we've got you, please leave us a review. Give us a five star rating. It makes us really
Laura Conway (59:51)
we do the sleep diary assessment for you, we give you everything you need to take steps forward and the support that you need, β it's our bread and butter. We do it every day and we absolutely love it. So I'll pop a link in the show notes if you're keen to book an appointment, go check that out. And while we've got you, please leave us a review, give us a five-star rating, it makes us really
happy we've got only five stars on Spotify I think.
Fallon Cook (1:00:12)
happy. We've got only five stars on Spotify, I think.
Laura Conway (1:00:15)
Amazing, yeah touch wood touch Maybe the bone broth person is gonna leave us a one star now. yeah they might. But just make sure you hit subscribe it does help us find the right audience and if you are heading back to work or you're feeling generous we'd love it if you bought us a coffee.
Fallon Cook (1:00:15)
I've jinxed us now, I've jinxed us. Maybe the bone broth person is going to leave us at once. yeah, they might. But just make sure you hit subscribe, it does help us find the right audience. And if you are heading back to work or you're feeling generous, we'd love it if you bought us a coffee.
β
every little bit helps us keep doing this important work. Absolutely. So thanks everyone for tuning in and yeah we'll be back again. Well our plan is next week but who knows what will happen. Thanks everyone bye
Laura Conway (1:00:34)
every little bit helps us keep doing this important work. Absolutely. So thanks everyone for tuning in and yeah we'll be back again. Well our plan is next week but who knows what happens. Thanks everyone bye bye.
