Fallon Cook (00:37)
Everyone says that a good bedtime routine for children is super important, but has anyone ever told you why or how to set up a great bedtime routine for your little one? Well, today we're going to dive right in so you can learn what's happening in your child's brain when you begin their bedtime routine, how to set up a great bedtime routine for your baby, toddler or older child, and what to do if bedtime feels more like heading into battle.
than the relaxing wind down that you hoped it would be.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Paediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us. I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia. Laura, how are you going this fine Monday morning?
Dr Laura (01:42)
I have limped to the screen this morning. I'm hanging by a thread people after moving this weekend. There's been no bedtime routines for me. I have just been falling into bed and passing out the last few nights. So tired, yeah, moving house.
Fallon Cook (01:46)
She's hanging by a thread.
⁓ I bet.
Dr Laura (02:04)
particularly as a single parent, is next level ⁓ stress. So anyhow, I'm in and I have lots of boxes to unpack, but I will soon, it will be behind me, a distant memory and that will be wonderful. How are you going, Valen?
Fallon Cook (02:21)
Yeah,
yeah, not too bad. I've been, ⁓ you know, just getting the kids back to school and trying to navigate all of that and get everyone happily out the door on time without it being like this absolute disaster every morning so far. It's going pretty well. Yeah, like we had, I sort of chuckled to myself because we had an email come through.
⁓ from Annabelle who's a Sombelle member and she had some questions about the bedtime routine and the minute I read it, I was like, ⁓ yeah, this is a great episode. So thank you Annabelle. Really made me go, yes, let's do an episode on bedtime routine. But I kind of chuckled cause I was like, yeah, I'm in the throes of figuring out a better bedtime routine for my kids. So I think, I just think for a lot of parents, it's so relevant right now because so many of us are.
Dr Laura (03:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (03:15)
maybe heading back to work after parent leave, ⁓ or we've just had time off over the holidays, everything has gone wild, now we're trying to rein everything back in again. And that's what it's been like for me with my kids. Like over the summer break, I always let my kids have their bedtime creep a bit later, the sleepings get a bit longer. And I'm okay with allowing that because I know I can get them back on track before school starts and...
Dr Laura (03:23)
Yes.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (03:40)
I just feel like our evenings are so beautiful in the summertime. They're long, you know, it's light until nine or nine 30. ⁓ so that's all been great. But then of course, as school approaches, it's like, okay, we've got to, got to dial this back in and get them organized. And I was really reflecting on like, ⁓ I just didn't want bedtime to go back to being what it was like last year. It just wasn't great. It wasn't the worst bedtimes ever, you know, with my kids, but not
Dr Laura (03:44)
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (04:09)
bedtime you'd look forward to. Often everyone's stressed and it's like, come on quick, you know, we've got to quickly get ready for bed. Just not a super engaging, fun time for anyone. Um, and I was, so I was thinking back over that and I was like, okay, I really want to kind of hit this year on the front foot and really like get in ahead of the back to school, really start to work on that bedtime routine. Because things like even just reading at bedtime and started to fall off the radar.
And I was like, no, I really want my kids to be reading more and like just really happy going to bed. And for me to have enough time as well to like, you know, when you've got three kids, especially when they're older, um, often by the time they go to bed, I'm just like, Oh my God, I just want to collapse into bed, you know, and there's, there's no time for me to just be me. Like you give them your whole day and then often you're giving them your whole evening and then you just fall into bed and collapse in a heat. So I was like, right, I've to get this back on track.
Dr Laura (04:51)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (05:03)
Anyway, I'm rambling, but essentially I started to think, okay, what am going to do to support this? And I, looked into, there's a lot of e-calendars available now where you've got like a screen sits on your kitchen bench and you can schedule in everything that's coming up. So your kids can kind of see what's for dinner and what they're doing on Saturday and all those sorts of things are nice and kind of visual for them. But there's a great feature where you can add in like, you know, the bedtime routine or the morning routine.
Dr Laura (05:05)
you
⁓
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (05:31)
And I knew that my youngest would absolutely love being able to like check things off and hear the little ding and there's like little emojis that pop up and stuff. Um, so I was like, right, I'm going to get one of those. And it took a bit of time to like schedule everything in, but oh my God, they love it. It works so well because yeah, it's not me saying, well, I'm still saying, you know, it's time to brush teeth or whatever, but they know that it's time. Cause there was a little ding that said, you know, time to brush your teeth. So it's less about me being like, you have to do this right now.
Dr Laura (05:39)
Yes.
Yeah. Do they?
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (06:01)
hurry the hell up
and more like, what do we do next? And then they're like, yeah, it's like teeth brushing time or whatever. ⁓ definitely works better with my youngest who's nine now, but, ⁓ it's just been fantastic. They're getting into bed earlier and they're reading in bed and loving it. And last night I checked on my middle child and my youngest and cause it's time for lights out enough reading and they couldn't hear each other. The separate rooms is interesting. I broke it at the same night, but they were both like, you know what, mom?
I really didn't want to do the whole, you know, reading in bed thing, but I love it. They both were saying, it's really nice. It's so cozy. I've got my little lamp and I'm cuddled under my doona and I can just read and it's like really relaxing and they're falling asleep much quicker. It's this lovely calm wind down. ⁓ and I just thought, hell yeah.
Dr Laura (06:39)
Aww. Yes.
you
Fallon Cook (06:54)
So often I think, I mean, this is just every parent's story, but so often we feel like we've gotten wildly off track and you just think, how the heck will I ever fix this? How am I ever going to make it better? And I think it just takes, probably just takes four weeks of summer holidays to reset a bit. But that's, that's what helped me. It was just having that time to take a breath and reflect on the year and go, okay, what do want to change about it? And then just being really clear with the kids that these are the changes we're making.
Dr Laura (07:03)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
No.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (07:21)
Um, and they can earn stars and things like that. They saw they're all working towards different goals, which, you know, it's nothing like a little bit of bribery or an incentive to help things along. Um, but anyway, it has been really, really helping. We're having really calm bedtimes. They're getting ready for school, you know, pretty, you know, pretty easily. They understand what happens next. And yeah, I just think that is, has been great. yeah, so that's why I thought, right now it's fresher in my mind. Let's dive into.
Dr Laura (07:29)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
That sounds wonderful. Mmm, yes!
Fallon Cook (07:50)
know bedtime routines because I think there's so many parents who who kind of want advice around this.
Dr Laura (07:56)
Yeah, so why don't we start with telling parents why having a bedtime routine is so important, Fallon?
Fallon Cook (08:04)
Yeah, look, I think, I think there would be a lot of parents who kind of groan hearing the old, just have a bedtime routine. Because we do hear so many people, especially online being like, ⁓ if your child's not sleeping, just do a bedtime routine and it's going to solve all the problems. And I just think, ⁓ you know, it's definitely an important part of the equation, but, ⁓ and I think every child, you know, benefits from a bedtime routine.
Dr Laura (08:11)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (08:30)
⁓ but it isn't going to solve all your problems, but doesn't mean you can't kind of, you know, work towards it as just part of the bigger picture around their sleep. ⁓ but anyway, basically when we have a predictable pattern of events that happen in the lead up to bedtime, so things happening in the same order, ⁓ you know, nice and calm, your child knows what to expect. Their brain starts to learn that pattern of events. And eventually when you start the first parts of those, that, ⁓ routine, their brain.
picks up on it and understands, okay, sleep is happening soon. So it's preparing by releasing those sleep hormones that are hopefully going to mean by the time you finish that routine, they're just feeling really prepared and they're kind of biologically really ready for sleep. And they've got those sleep hormones there. That's why it's important. So if you've got a really chaotic bedtime where everything moves around all the time and they might have 10 stories or one story or singing a song or not, like, and it's just really variable, then your child's not getting the benefit.
of that predictability that's really priming their brain for the bedtime that's coming up quickly. And that kind of brings me to the next point, Laura, do you want to talk about how long the bedtime routine should be? Cause I do know some parents who are like, well we start at 6pm and bedtimes 8pm and it's like this two hour thesis of bedtime activities. But what's the sort of ideal length do you think?
Dr Laura (09:32)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah, excellent.
Yes. Yeah.
final feed and a quick cuddle and into bed. But for older babies and certainly toddlers, we're thinking more around 20 minutes or so. Some might push out to 30 minutes, but really no longer than that. If you are finding that the bedtime routine is pushing longer than that, then having a look at the daily rhythm to ensure that the bedtime is the right time for your little one would be the
next step to try and ensure that by the time when you start the routine until you're turning lights out or you know the final kiss goodnight is no longer than 20-30 minutes absolute max. ⁓
Fallon Cook (10:57)
Mm.
Yeah, I completely agree. 20 minutes is kind of that sweet spot where it's, yeah, nicely contained.
Dr Laura (11:04)
But parents will often say to me, my goodness, I can't possibly do a routine in 20 minutes, including the bath. So Fallon, what do you say should the bath be part of the bedtime routine?
Fallon Cook (11:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, this is such a good question. I get it from parents all the time. And it was actually one of the questions that Annabelle sent in. Look, I would say no, I just think kids don't find the bath like, ⁓ you know, calming or relaxing until well, I think they've got to move out of home and get a job. And then they'll find the bath relaxing before they've moved out of home and got a job, then ⁓ it's just fun. It's water play. It's exciting. Often they're really, really riled up and they're splashing around.
Dr Laura (11:37)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Fallon Cook (11:49)
Look, every baby is different. I'm sure there are exceptions, but by and large, I would say, no, keep the bath time for a little while before bed. It doesn't have to be super long. It might even be that your 20 minute bedtime routine begins once they're out of the bath. But I would think of the 20 minute routine as being all the pretty calming, relaxing kind of things, not the, you know, the tsunami and everything that happens at bath time.
Dr Laura (12:14)
I remember my kids, I just have very, very fond memories of my kids' ⁓ bath times when they were babies and toddlers and it was just always so much fun with the squealing and giggling and getting the last of the sillies out and
Fallon Cook (12:27)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (12:30)
You know, sometimes I joke with parents in clinic that those ⁓ like baby oil companies that wanting you to try and manufacture this really calming routine where the bath is just dim lights and chilled out are just setting parents up to fail because water and children, it's normally fun, fun and laughter.
Fallon Cook (12:55)
Yeah, it's so true. You mentioned earlier Laura about like really tiny little babies under three months, we keep that bedtime routine super quick and often parents say it doesn't even really feel like we have much of a routine, which is really fine at that age. But maybe talk parents through like an ideal bedtime routine for a little baby, but maybe from around sort of three to six months of age, what are the good kind of elements of a 20 minute bedtime routine?
Dr Laura (13:21)
Yeah, so dimming the lighting using really calm, soft voices. You don't want to be using exciting tones that really rile them up. Giving your little one the last feed of the day, be that a breastfeed or a bottle feed. Doing a final nappy change into their PJs and everything soft and calm.
If you're using white noise, can turn the white noise on at this point. ⁓ And often at this point, parents will bring in a song that they sing, that they always sing as part of the bedtime routine. Twinkle Twinkle is one that's used a lot. ⁓ And or a simple short book. So most families will have a particular...
bedtime story that they love using, whilst giving their little one a cuddle. And after that, popping the little one down into the cot, zipping up a sleeping bag, if you haven't already put them in a sleeping bag. And that's all done and dusted within a relatively short space of time.
Fallon Cook (14:38)
I love that. It's so lovely. And a word of caution. There are so many parents who will say to me, ⁓ but my partner gets home from work right at that time and all they want to do is play and rile them up. No, not allowed. Yeah. Don't do that. You could work on making everything later bedtime later and your wind down routine later, but we don't want a really excited parent coming into that 20 minute wind down and making it too fun or too exciting. Got to be protected.
Dr Laura (14:51)
No, absolutely not. No.
Yes.
No, absolutely.
Yeah. And Fallon, how does a bedtime routine begin to change as babies grow into being toddlers?
Fallon Cook (15:09)
Mmm
Yeah, look, there are some components that stay similar. So you're still going to want to have, you know, the lighting is dimmed, you're using calm voices. If they're still having a milk feed, then you know, you're definitely going to do that as maybe part of the bedtime routine. might even start to happen before the bedtime routine. You still got your nappy change, your pajamas, often there's brushing teeth as well. Um, but the things that really change as they enter toddlerhood is that you're probably going to bring in more stories that really close snuggly time.
Dr Laura (15:40)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (15:47)
the cuddles that you're giving, maybe you have a favorite chair in their bedroom that you sit in together to do stories, the closeness of that contact, the pressure of their body against yours and yours against theirs ⁓ is really regulating, it really helps them to calm. And also we know all the amazing benefits of storytelling, them just hearing your voice, talking through a story, looking at the pictures. It's for most toddlers, a story is a great way to help them be calm and still.
and lot of toddlers will struggle with that. They don't get the memo to fall asleep and get ready for bed. You've got to stop moving. But often, not always, I know there are parents that they're going, a story will not stop my toddler. ⁓ But most toddlers will sit still and calm down for that story and they get that lovely benefit of the closeness as well.
Dr Laura (16:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (16:37)
With toddlers, you know, in bedtime routines, often they come to a point where they want to start to make some decisions and they'll start to say things like, one more story, or I need this, I need to, yeah, more water. need a different teddy. Yeah. Lots of things like that. Um, so that's where we want them to have some, of course, you know, we're growing these incredible little humans. We want them to develop some sense of autonomy. Like they've got some control and some say in how things go, but.
Dr Laura (16:48)
More water, go to the toilet.
Fallon Cook (17:06)
Bedtime is not where we want to be too wild with the extent of the things they're allowed to do. So this is where I often say to parents, a bedtime routine chart in pictures is absolute gold. It's a bit like the e-calendar thing I'm using with my older kids in that you can, they can see what's coming next on that chart. And I often say to parents, put it in their bedroom. So when you start your 20 minutes, you're kind of in the room. They can see it on the wall so that you've got
Dr Laura (17:10)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (17:34)
every single thing they could want to do in their bedtime routine. You know, there's a picture for it. You've set it up in the order that it needs to happen. And then you ask your child, what do we do next? And then they look up and they go, ⁓ toothbrush. We've got to brush our teeth. So they're not actually having a whole lot of control at bedtime, but they feel like they've got some control because they're able to tell you what they should be doing next.
And I think psychologically that makes a huge difference for toddlers and apparently nine year olds and 12 year olds as well. But, you know, it's really, really powerful. So if you're a Sombelle member of the toddler program, you know, there's a whole like lessons, heaps of info about how to set up a really good pictorial bedtime routine chart, because that can really help to reduce bedtime battles. it just, you know, it's a way of keeping
Dr Laura (18:00)
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (18:26)
things happening in a predictable order before bedtime. So their brain is getting all the benefits of knowing bedtime is coming. ⁓ But it's less about you saying, no, you can't have the fourth story because on our chart, you know, we've, we've got three stories there. So it's less about you just saying no, and more about you directing to that chart and saying, that's not what we do next. We actually do this thing. And I will often say to parents, there might be some tears at first. They might be very cranky when they realize that, you've, there's a boundary there.
Dr Laura (18:48)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (18:55)
yeah, there
is a maximum of three stories and it doesn't bend anymore, but your job is not to go and change the routine chart or change the rules. Your job is to support them through all the big feelings they're having about that boundary. And when those feelings pass, you just calmly go onto the next step and you just keep working through. often within a few nights toddlers realize, okay, there's not much point in, ⁓ you know, have staging a huge protest because
Dr Laura (19:07)
⁓
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (19:22)
My parents actually rock solid on this and this is just the way it goes now. yeah. So I would say that's probably a little, ⁓ yeah. And a nutshell of what toddler bedtime routines start to be like. but Laura, you know, instilling a predictable pattern of events in the lead up to bedtime, I think is particularly important for toddlers. ⁓ do you want to talk us through why that is?
Dr Laura (19:25)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, so like you mentioned just earlier, as your little one gets older and as toddlerhood, they're beginning to work out where boundaries lie and they will be pushing the boundaries in all sorts of things. So putting their shoes on, ⁓ eating their dinner, getting into the car.
all sorts of ⁓ just usual day-to-day transitions. They're going to be checking where the boundaries are.
and they will at some point start to do this at bedtime as well. Not all of them, but most of them. And the way that this will often present in toddlers is they will have extra requests. So they want one more story. They want to go out of their bedroom again and say good night to the other parent or there's something they need to go and find a different toy. Or they may insist on doing things differently. They might want to... ⁓
I'm remembering some of the things my kids did. They don't want to just climb into bed. Normally they want to do a handstand into the bed or something or go in at the wrong end of the bed. So that can be awkward.
Fallon Cook (21:00)
Yeah.
Yes, climb the bunk bed in
a slightly different way. That's been a thing in my house. Like, no, this time I want to see if I can go up backwards and in reverse order. Okay.
Dr Laura (21:10)
you
all kinds of shenanigans can happen at bedtime.
And of course, some of those things we might just, you you choose your battles, you might let those things through. But in terms of the...
general order of events. It is quite important that you do hold steady on the activities that are in that bedtime routine. So there may be a little bit of a riggle room if they decide that they want to do a headstand into their bed. All right, that's them doing their step of getting into bed. But
By being really steady so that you say at the end of this step you get into bed, it just helps your child understand that these things are predictable and you are firm that each step leads to the next. ⁓ And when you do hold steady in that way, it can really help ensure that you don't end up having that one or two hour bedtime battle.
Fallon Cook (22:23)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (22:23)
where
it's one step forward, two steps back. Because your toddlers actually need to have some boundaries and to understand where they stand at bedtime. ⁓
Fallon Cook (22:37)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (22:39)
for as
long as you change what happens, they ⁓ can feel a little bit insecure about where those boundaries are. It actually helps a toddler feel secure knowing that these are the things that happen in this predictable order. If they are
if things are constantly changing, can actually help, well not help, but it can lead to that bedtime transition feeling more uncertain and they feel less secure and then their behaviour may escalate further. So really we just want things nice and predictable, it supports ⁓ their stage of development and helps them stay calm ⁓ and puts a full stop on the bedtime routine so it doesn't end
Fallon Cook (23:10)
you
Mmm.
Dr Laura (23:29)
up being this really protracted experience that the whole family dreads.
Fallon Cook (23:33)
Yes. And I think it's so much
about prevention too. Like, you know, we see so many parents where they've got a three and a half year old whose bedtime has been this two hour absolute battle for the past 18 months or something. And often those parents are like, I let this get so out of control. Like they started wanting to request things at bedtime and I was like, yeah, I'm a cool parent.
Sure, we can do that. Yeah, let's do an extra story. know, and then they look, yeah, yeah, yeah. God, the snacks at bedtime. Yeah. That's when it can really unravel. But those parents were like, if only I just maintained that consistency in those boundaries. Cause once your toddler has learned, you know, after a month of shenanigans, they've learned that they can do all these sorts of things. There's no real boundary, you know, it's really hard to get that back on track, but
Dr Laura (24:00)
Yeah
give you a toasty. I'll make you a toasty. The snacks at bedtime. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (24:28)
If you're going into it, so many parents who tune into this as well, they've got a prevention lens on, they're like, I want the best possible sleep for my family and I'll do what I need to do to make sure we can maintain it. And if you're one of those parents, just keep that bedtime routine on track because it will pay off in spades.
Dr Laura (24:45)
Yeah, but it's still important to consider sleep pressure at bedtime as your child is getting older. So Fallon, can you talk us through that?
Fallon Cook (24:54)
Yeah, I think it's a really important element we've got to keep in mind because you can hold steady on bedtime routine all you like. But if they're keeping their day nap for too long or the day nap is just going on too long, or they've had a drop off in sleep needs and you're not catering to that, then you know, or maybe you've just bedtime is just way too early for your child and you haven't recognized that yet. If you were trying to do, you can have the most
Golden bedtime routine the most consistent bedtime routine, but if your toddler isn't ready for sleep They don't have enough sleep pressure something else is going on. It just isn't going to work So you always want to be working with your child's unique sleep needs not battling against them You know some our members use the unique sleep needs Chapter in the toddler program to make sure you're really on top of how much sleep they're needing how you're structuring their day
for a lot of toddlers, bedtimes are very tricky because they're holding onto the naps for too long or the naps are stretching on a bit. ⁓ So you've really got to take care of that because we can't reasonably expect a toddler to follow the routine and be wonderfully behaved and not make any extra requests if they're not tired and ready for sleep. I think even as an adult, we can imagine that if you try to put yourself to bed early one night and you're not really ready for sleep.
It's torturous trying to fall asleep when your mind is just still wide awake. ⁓ it's really hard. feels horrible and it's going to feel horrible for your toddler too. So it is about making sure the sleep pressure is there and you've got a routine that ends, you know, at the time that they are genuinely ready for sleep. ⁓ and that can be a bit of a balancing act. Definitely can be really tricky to navigate. So Laura, where can parents get help? If they're having
Dr Laura (26:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (26:42)
trouble with really tricky bedtimes, especially as children get older as well. think bedtime can be particularly challenging. What are parents options?
Dr Laura (26:48)
Mmm.
Well, joining Somme Bell, if you haven't already joined, there is loads of content dedicated to bedtime difficulties because toddlers are renowned for this.
Fallon Cook (27:03)
Mm. Mm.
Dr Laura (27:06)
exact steps on how to implement a bedtime routine chart, how to give your toddlers that sense of agency which they can absolutely
love and that can be a great starting point to get sleep or the bedtime back on track. There's also clinic appointments
These are great if you don't have time for the program and you want us to do the full sleep assessment and give you the steps you need to make bedtime easier. This is really great if your kid has complex needs. For example, if they are neurodivergent, ADHD, autistic, have sensory sensitivities and challenges. Often we will need to develop a really bespoke bedtime routine.
⁓ for those children that meets their particular needs ⁓ and can help them calm at bedtime and give them the sense of agency that they may need. Thinking about school-age kids, I Fallon you started this podcast talking about things that you've put into place for your older children and
We do have the Children's Sleep Australia Clinic where we help parents of school-aged kids and that's primary school and secondary school age children. ⁓ And we can talk through ⁓ dealing with protracted bedtimes in that population. If your child is older, teenage years, then they can be really heavily involved in...
the appointments and looking at what type of issues are causing them to feel that they can't fall asleep. Often teenagers might have worries, school worries or friendship worries. So we may be looking at doing some cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia, for example, that we don't have to do for little children and isn't appropriate for younger kids. So there are lots of places that parents can go to get help if their children are having tricky
bedtimes and so you've got Sombelle you've got clinic appointments and you've got the Children's Sleep Australia clinic as well.
Fallon Cook (29:24)
I think parents are often really surprised how once kids reach school age, there is so little support for children's sleep problems. You could probably count on one or two hands, the number of dedicated sleep clinics for children and teens. Like it's really, there's not a lot of support out there. So we're really happy to now have that service.
Dr Laura (29:41)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (29:46)
⁓ and
you're in Melbourne on Thursdays now. So, ⁓ families local to Melbourne can actually see you in our clinic in Malvern on Waddell Tree Road at the Victorian Children's Clinic. But we do telehealth all around the world, anywhere except the USA or its territories. Just have to mention that. ⁓ but yeah, you know, we can, we can support with these sorts of problems. ⁓ amazing. We've had terrific questions come in over the past fortnight from members, haven't we?
Dr Laura (29:49)
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
yet.
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah we have. Yes.
Fallon Cook (30:14)
really, really good ones. And we've decided
to group them this week kind of roughly into similar topics. So the first sort of topic we're going to cover is looking at bedtime resistance, the really long settles and false starts. And these questions sort of center on bedtime becoming harder again after a period of improvement. So let's start with Hannah. She has a 21 month old who was previously settling well with a 7pm bottle.
Dr Laura (30:21)
You
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (30:44)
booked shortly after and asleep by around 7.30 or to 7.40 p.m. She wakes between 6.45 and 7.30 a.m. and naps for up to two hours a daycare. Recently bedtime has stretched out to anywhere from 40 minutes to an hour and a half, sometimes with distress, and she rarely settles with dad when upset. Nights are otherwise okay, though there have been some recent night terrors.
Hannah wants help deciding where to intervene, whether to wake her earlier, reduce her daytime nap, or push bedtime later.
Dr Laura (31:20)
Okay, Hannah, I would be logging your little one's sleep to see what her sleep need is and stabilizing wake up time. So you're describing that that bedtime can push between 40 minutes and an hour and a half. And there is about 45 minute variation in the wake up time in the morning. So if you were to stabilize that wake up time in the morning, say to 6.45, that might
Fallon Cook (31:31)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:50)
reduce a lot of that battle at bedtime. And the other thing I would be looking at is that nap duration. So two hours, it may be that you can look at shaving one sleep cycle off that ⁓ that nap time, and then you might find that you can
Fallon Cook (32:02)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (32:17)
help your little one go to sleep before that 7.30, 7.40 as well because you could push some of the sleep from that's currently allocated to the nap into the start of the night instead. So yes, yeah, stabilize that wake up time ⁓ and then yeah, see you about the nap.
Fallon Cook (32:30)
Hmm.
Yeah. I think
definitely Hannah figure out what your child's unique sleep needs are. So use that unique sleep needs chapter. Cause just thinking about that schedule, they're potentially doing 7.30 PM through to 7.30 AM. That's 12 hours overnight plus a two hour nap. We're at 14 hours. And for 21 month old, that is a lot of sleep. ⁓ Very good chance that their sleep needs are actually lower than that.
Dr Laura (32:53)
a lot.
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (33:01)
But by
catering to that sleep need, you should really see a great improvement in the nights. Awesome. Good luck, Hannah.
Dr Laura (33:07)
So Jessica has a almost seven month old who
only needs 11 and a half hours in a 24 hour period. So he's on two naps capped at between an hour and a half and two hours and has a bedtime between eight 30 and nine waking at six 30 in the morning. He no longer feeds to sleep, which is great, but he still relies on bouncing on an exercise ball before being transferred to the cot. gosh, those exercise balls, parents with thighs of steel. They're seeing.
Fallon Cook (33:35)
Hmm... New workout regime.
Dr Laura (33:44)
They're seeing frequent false starts 30 to 45 minutes after bedtime and they want to understand whether these are due to under tiredness or lingering sleep associations and whether they should focus first on cot settling or resolving the false starts. What do you reckon Fallon?
Fallon Cook (34:04)
I would start with working on the daily rhythm, which will resolve the false starts, but then very quickly working on the cot settling. So you're to have an easier time cot settling if you've absolutely nailed the sleep pressure with a daily rhythm that really fits. False starts only happen because there's something off with the daily rhythm. so yeah, I would be, you know, if it's an 11 and a half hour sleep need,
⁓ what would I think of the top of my head? So if we spend an hour and a half on day sleep, we're left with 10 hours overnight. So then you could do an 8.30 PM bedtime and a 6.30 AM wake up that could add up to your 11 and a half hours. If you make it a two hour nap, then it's going to have to be an even shorter night. So that's where I'd go for the 9.00 PM bedtime. What's really key is not to vary this. You actually want to try and keep it ⁓ really standard. So if daycare
Dr Laura (34:40)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (34:56)
always does a two hour nap refuses to wake him earlier. Well, the decision is made for you. ⁓ but if it, you know, they're happy to wake him an hour and a half, we've got some flexibility, but, ⁓ yeah, definitely work on that daily rhythm three or four days in, you should have much higher sleep pressure at bedtime. Then go all in on the cot settling because there are some babies who, ⁓ when once they can self settle and have good longer stretches overnight, their total sleep needs increase. So
Dr Laura (35:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (35:26)
It's, think of self-soothing as being a little bit like a muscle. The stronger it gets, the better they can do it. And sometimes even if sleep drives a little low, they'll manage an extra cycle per day or so. ⁓ and we just want to give them all the opportunity we can to get as much sleep as they can get. But it's important to, build the sleep pressure, then work on cot settling, because it's going to be a really huge change for your baby to go from being in your arms and moving constantly to being completely still. So you really want to optimize everything you can.
Dr Laura (35:35)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (35:55)
to hopefully make that go a little easier.
Dr Laura (35:58)
Yeah, deflate that exercise ball when you can so that you don't revert back to it in the middle of the night.
Fallon Cook (36:06)
Yeah, true.
Once you make the change, make it a clean change. Good point.
Dr Laura (36:09)
Yeah.
All right, our next group of questions are about NAP challenges and NAP transitions. So these focus on NAPs kind of falling apart or changing, especially around the 12 to 14 month mark.
So Lauren has a 12 month old who's recently started sleeping through the night, which is great getting about 11 hours sleep overnight. Previously, his total sleep need was between 11 and 12 hours, but day sleep has become very difficult. He may skip the first nap or only sleep 30 minutes and resettling usually requires holding. This has been going on for about three weeks alongside some big developmental changes and recent dropping the dummy.
Fallon Cook (36:30)
Yay.
Dr Laura (36:54)
So Lauren is wondering whether this is a regression, development related or linked to night sleep consolidating. What do you reckon Fallon?
Fallon Cook (37:03)
I love this question. Well, this is a baby who has amazingly started to do 11 hours overnight. Essentially almost their entire sleep need is now being met overnight. They're going to be waking up way more refreshed, better able to power through the day. And they probably just don't have that much sleep in the tank for their day naps, which is perfectly fine. ⁓ a hundred percent, I would move this child to one nap. I think something about what Lauren said implied that there's two naps happening.
Dr Laura (37:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (37:33)
⁓ it doesn't sound like they're needing the two naps anymore. ⁓ so what's their total average daily sleep sitting on now? If it is sitting on 12 hours per 24 hours, we've got a one hour allowance for day nap. If you want to keep that 11 hours overnight. ⁓ if you know, they're averaging 11 and a half hours, well, that's when you might go, okay, we're just going to dial back the night's sleep a little bit. So maybe they get an hour nap at lunchtime. ⁓ so I'd be really just thinking about the maths and how to best split.
Dr Laura (37:57)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (38:01)
that total sleep need that they have. Yeah, yeah, and be dropping down to one nap.
Dr Laura (38:03)
Mm hmm. Yeah, and thinking about how well,
thinking about how well he copes, what's the least amount of day sleep that he manages well on. ⁓ So if he really needs ⁓
Fallon Cook (38:13)
Mm.
Dr Laura (38:18)
half, let's say, then you that's what he functions best on for his naps, then you would need to alter bedtime. So that you reduce that you know, you're taking some of that 11 hours overnight and putting it into the daytime. But if you coach really well on just a one, you 45 minutes to an hour during the day, brilliant, then we keep most of the sleep at night. So this is an example of where we're always looking to see
Fallon Cook (38:35)
Hmm
Yeah 100 %
Dr Laura (38:46)
not just what the maths is doing but how our little ones are functioning during the day to determine what's going to be the best duration but make that change for a whole week before you decide whether or not it's working.
Fallon Cook (38:50)
Mmm.
Absolutely.
Melinda has a 14 month old who was pushed into a one nap schedule due to a daycare policy. 14 months though, probably should be on one nap. sorry if it was a bumpy ride, Melinda, but probably his time. She says previously he worked at 6 a.m., had a short morning nap and a longer afternoon nap and slept through the night with a 7.30 p.m. bedtime. He now naps from about 11.45 a.m. to 1.30 p.m. Quite a big nap.
Dr Laura (39:12)
Mmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (39:31)
and goes to bed at 7pm but has started waking overnight between 11pm and 2am. He seems happy during the day and not over tired. Melinda wants to know how to support the nap transition when night wakes have appeared. Very similar answer probably isn't it? Yeah.
Dr Laura (39:44)
I think, Melinda, this is going to be a maths question.
I think you probably haven't got a lot of say with the ⁓ daytime nap duration at daycare. So what's that? An hour? How long is that? 12?
Yeah, an hour and 45 minutes daytime. Yeah, nearly two hours daytime sleep ⁓ and he probably doesn't ⁓ quite need a bedtime at seven anymore. ⁓ I would be looking...
Fallon Cook (40:06)
It's almost two hours.
Dr Laura (40:20)
Well, either adjusting the bedtime later, ⁓ or I would be looking at stabilizing that wake up in line with his unique sleep needs. So you know, he's having roughly two hours daytime sleep, what's his total? ⁓
average sleep duration, then set bedtime and wake up so that it matches that. And you should then see those overnight wakes stopping. I suspect it's just he's running out of sleep pressure. That 11pm wake up is his deep sleep has passed and he's just beginning to be a bit more wakeful because the sleep pressure is a little bit, you know, it's dropped off a lot because of that deep sleep passing. Yeah, so that would be my advice, Melinda.
Fallon Cook (40:48)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (41:05)
luck working that one out. ⁓
Fallon Cook (41:06)
Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, we'll also... Yep,
you go.
Dr Laura (41:13)
We've got a question from Katie who has a 14 month old who's on one nap as well, waking around 6.30, napping at 11.30 and going to bed at 7.30. So quite similar to Melinda's baby. Mornings are tricky. Melinda describes her little one being clingy and fussy from around nine, which improves when they do go out of the house. However, outings often lead to car naps that disrupt the day. Katie is wondering whether the morning fussiness reflects tiredness,
boredom or possibly poor quality overnight sleep. Interesting.
Fallon Cook (41:49)
Yeah. ⁓
I would be curious to learn more about why Katie thinks that overnight sleep could be poor quality. Like is this a toddler who's waking quite often overnight and really restless? So there could be a bit of tweaking to the daily rhythms. So I would follow the same advice we gave for Lauren and Melinda in calculating the sleep need and making sure you're really meeting it. It's not uncommon for toddlers who probably only moved to one nap not that long ago to still get a little bit tired in the morning. The fact that they can be distracted and then they're really happy when they've got some stimuli.
Dr Laura (41:57)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (42:21)
really tells you that they're probably just wanting to be kept a lot busier. And it might be that we need to keep this toddler busy, but without going in the car or the pram for the next little while to avoid those sneaky little naps from coming in. And just try and plan some activities that aren't too far from home or around home that are really stimulating and provide that input. ⁓
Dr Laura (42:35)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (42:44)
Yeah. Good luck to all three of those parents who are doing that little delicate dance with the daily rhythm. It's always worth it when you nail it, but it can be tricky trying to get to that point. That's for sure. ⁓ So we've got a few questions now. Yeah. We've got some questions now about night waking and just overnight sleep patterns in general. ⁓ Renee has a nine month old with a total sleep need of about 12 a half hours. Bedtime's around 8.40 PM. Wake up's around 8.15 AM.
Dr Laura (42:49)
Yes.
Yeah, it can. Good
Fallon Cook (43:13)
And naps total about two hours and 15 minutes. Whoa, I'm not surprised this child's waking. That's a lot of sleep. ⁓ overnight she's averaging about 10 hours of night's sleep, but wakes three to four times. Okay. So they're spending about 12-ish hours in the cot overnight, but only sleeping about 10, waking three or four times. They usually feed twice. Renee's goals are to reduce night waking to one or two feeds and gradually wean feeds altogether.
Dr Laura (43:19)
Yeah, that is.
yeah 10
Fallon Cook (43:40)
And she's confused by conflicting advice about wake windows and overtiredness. God, throw those in the bin. Put the overtiredness in the bin. Yeah.
Dr Laura (43:45)
Yeah, chuck them in the bin Renee just yeah and also age-based
wake windows. ⁓
just disregard them. Honestly, they just are hiding to nothing. So just think about your nine month old and how long they can tolerate being awake. You're offering your little one a lot of sleep, about 12 hours overnight and then over two hours during the day. So that's much more than their 12 and a half hour sleep need. So since your goals is to reduce the night wakings, really we definitely need to look
at that daily rhythm. So reducing the amount of time that your baby is in bed overnight when they're not, they don't need to be. So I'd be looking if you keep the day naps at two hours, 15 minutes, which sounds like maybe three 45 minute sleep cycles, then you're looking at just over 10, 10 and a half hours maybe ⁓ overnight. So adjusting that wake up and bedtime to match that. That's going to start to reduce the
Fallon Cook (44:26)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (44:53)
wakes overnight considerably and ⁓ so you may find that your little one just simply drops to one or two wakes overnight and you can provide them with the feeds at that point ⁓ and when you are ready to drop the feeds then
⁓ probably dropped out if they're having two feeds overnight, then drop down to one feed. ⁓ when you're ready, the first time they wake up after say 1 a.m. ⁓ and then you can drop that final feed whenever feels right for you. ⁓ but honestly, you'll go, just don't worry about overtiredness and wake windows at the moment. The bigger issue is how many times your nine month old is waking up overnight. And that's much more of an issue because the nights are so fragmented. So you must be shattered and so must your baby, Renee. So.
Fallon Cook (45:22)
Hmm
Yeah.
Dr Laura (45:39)
good luck with making those changes.
Fallon Cook (45:40)
Yes.
That's
a pretty significant circadian rhythm difficulty there. And often these are parents who say, I can't wake them up earlier. They're so tired. I, you know, I have to give them more day sleep. They're so tired. They're tired in the daytime because the nights are rubbish and they're not waking up refreshed. And often these are parents who need support and encouragement to change the daily rhythm because they're absolutely shattered, but it's so going to be worth it, Renee. And to all parents out there, if you are still thinking, oh, maybe over tiredness, or maybe I should have a
Dr Laura (45:47)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (46:12)
that wake window, do Sombelle again. Because we just want you to let go of this idea that there's a certain optimum wake window. It's different for every single baby. And the whole idea of overtiredness is such junk. If your baby is over 12 weeks of age, forget about overtiredness. It's not important. And I would encourage you to go all in on whatever approach you choose. It's horrible to be listening to multiple voices.
Dr Laura (46:16)
Yes.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (46:38)
trying to figure out what the consensus is. There really isn't a consensus, you know, in social media and all these other ⁓ noisy voices. So you just need to choose an approach and dive in. ⁓ Yeah, gosh, there's a lot of things around daily rhythm in these questions, isn't there?
Dr Laura (46:44)
Mm.
Yeah, you'll go mad otherwise. Yeah, there are. Yeah.
so Tamara has a five month old who now settles independently in the cot within minutes, which is awesome. But wakes every 40 minutes overnight when his dummy falls out. He resettles immediately once it's replaced. So Tamara is looking for ways to reduce these frequent dummy related wakes without undoing their progress. ⁓ yeah.
Fallon Cook (47:18)
Yes. All right. So Tamara, they're probably not going to be able to replace the dummy themselves until they're about seven months of age. So you've just got a decision to make. Can you keep going as you are for two more months? Do a lot of dummy replacement practice as we sort of detail in Sombelle. ⁓ And you might feel like that's the best path for you, which is great. If you just think, hell no, I do not have two months in me. I can't survive this. Then it's time to get rid of the dummy now. And you're going to have
Dr Laura (47:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (47:45)
handful of really tricky settles. So whatever approach you've been using for cot settling, stick to it really consistently to keep on track. And you'll notice your baby develops other ways of soothing. They'll probably bring their hands up to their mouth. That's the most common one, because they're used to having something to suckle. ⁓ So yeah, you've got a big decision to make, it's going to be fine either way. ⁓ Just depends on the time course that you're looking for to resolve those night wakes. But it like you're doing great. You can do this. Your baby can do this, whichever option you go with.
Dr Laura (48:11)
Yes.
Fallon Cook (48:14)
going to be okay.
Dr Laura (48:15)
Yeah, good advice. All right, our next group of questions are about sleep going backwards. So after illness, developmental spurts, or just other disruption in the household. And all of these Sombelle members want to know how to reset after ⁓ these regressions. ⁓
So Magenta has a 10 month old who has low sleep needs, previously slept well after using the supported accelerated approach. After a rough patch with separation anxiety, teething and developmental changes, they have ended up co-sleeping and contact napping.
Fallon Cook (48:37)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (48:58)
So they've recently returned to cot naps and night wakes are down to two overnight wakes. that's great, Magenta. Yeah, that's really good to have gone to all the way to go sleeping and contact naps to have been able to get yourself back on track. Well done, Magenta. The two naps are capped at around an hour and a half total. Magenta is asking about nap.
Fallon Cook (49:07)
Well done.
Dr Laura (49:24)
distribution throughout the day, so when those naps should be, and also wants to know why her baby strongly protests her naps despite falling asleep quickly.
Fallon Cook (49:38)
Hmm. All right. So if they're falling asleep quickly, they are ready for the nap. They just don't like the transition and that's really common in 10 month olds. They've got a lot to learn. They want to experience the world and having a nap is boring. Totally not fun, but they're falling asleep quickly. They're needing it. And you know, you've got a good cap on the total day sleep. So I think what you're doing at the moment is absolutely fine in terms of nap distribution for a 10 month old.
Dr Laura (49:45)
Yes.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (50:06)
I would expect the first stretch from like wake up time to the first nap is probably the shortest length of time awake. It gets a little bit longer before the second nap. And then the longest time awake is in the lead up to bedtime. So it's going to kind of vary across the day. There is no hard and fast rules here on two naps. I feel like you can even be a little bit flexible day to day if the exact timing moves a little bit. It's generally fine. As long as the second nap's not pushing really close to bedtime. I would say 10 months we want.
Dr Laura (50:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Fallon Cook (50:35)
four or more hours awake before bed would be pretty, pretty common. And then in terms of, yeah, yeah, absolutely. ⁓ Just in terms of ending up co-sleeping and contact napping, if you wanna make sure that doesn't happen again, Magenta, it's all about, even if there's separation anxiety, they're teething.
Dr Laura (50:38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and particularly with the low sleep knees.
Fallon Cook (50:57)
being in your arms or in your bed isn't going to reduce the separation anxiety or the teething. You can set up a spare bed beside the cot and you can give them constant hands-on support if you want to. That's a lot easier to recover from than them coming into your bed going, this is the best. And then not wanting to go back again. So just a little word of caution. If that happens again, aim to keep her in the cot and you go to her room and give her support in there rather than taking her out of her usual sleep environment.
Dr Laura (51:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that tip.
Fallon Cook (51:29)
Yeah, good. All right, and Meta has an 11 month old with a calm temperament and a long history of split nights that she now understands are related to too much sleep opportunity. His sleep needs appear to be around 12 to 12 and a half hours. And after stopping night feeds and adjusting his rhythm, nights have improved significantly. Well done.
He's currently being held to sleep and Meta is asking when best to reintroduce cot settling while still fine tuning the daily rhythm without compromising total sleep. I get this. So many parents are worried that if I try to work on cot settling, they'll be awake for ages and they won't achieve their sleep needs. And it often trips up parents. Laura, what should they do?
Dr Laura (52:11)
Yes, yeah,
I would just jump into it, Metta. We know that...
even if there are some days where your 11 month old doesn't sleep for that 12, 12 and a half hours sleep duration that they that is their average sleep need, it's not going to do any damage. So when you start the cot settling, there may be one or two days where perhaps they sleep for 11 and a half hours total, and not the 12 hours. And what I want you to be thinking about is that in that those few days, you're harvesting
sleep pressure. if they have, when you do start the cot settling at bedtime, if it takes your little one a bit longer to fall asleep and then you're sticking to the wake up time in the morning and you're using the same approach to settle them for their naps, that night their sleep pressure will be a little bit higher come bedtime. So when you put them down, the protesting may be a little bit shorter ⁓ and often by the third night,
we know the evidence shows us that ⁓ the sleep onset will be much shorter and they quickly recover. So don't let this fear of not meeting their daily sleep need hold you back from making the changes that you wish to make because we know that your little one will recover and they will...
Fallon Cook (53:32)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (53:44)
It's like the body as such is so finely calibrated, it will ensure across an entire week that your little one gets all of the sleep that they need. yeah, try not to let it hold you back. You'll probably find that just in general, when you're logging your baby's sleep, that there is a little bit of up and down, which we expect. None of us are robots, so there is going to be a little bit of variation in how much sleep we get from day to day. We just don't want that variation.
Fallon Cook (53:55)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (54:14)
to be like 14 hours one day 11 hours another day you know really really discrepant. So Meta you've done a great job so far jump right in you might have a couple of days where your little one doesn't have all of the sleep that they need but a little bit of variation is fine to be expected it won't do any long-term damage.
Fallon Cook (54:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, a temporary,
yeah, temporary drop in how much sleep they get isn't going to hurt. The key thing is if you work on a new way of settling, they're waking more often, it's really tricky. Still get them up on time, still kept their day sleep, still aim for the same night's sleep at bedtime rather, because if they have a tricky night and you let them sleep in, you're just telling their circadian rhythm, sure, keep doing it. We'll just keep compensating. So try to really keep that daily rhythm on track. Um, it's going to be a faster sway through and out the other side.
Dr Laura (54:46)
Mmm.
Yep. ⁓
So Tanya has a 16 month old who previously slept well and settled independently, but whose sleep unraveled after they went traveling, started childcare. And Tanya also thinks...
There's teething as well in the picture. So they've seen increased night wakings, difficult settles and a return to more hands-on settling strategies. So Tanya is looking for guidance on managing regressions, knowing when to increase support and how to get back on track more quickly without prolonging the difficulties. I think some of your answers that you gave to Magenta are going to be applicable here for Tanya as well.
Fallon Cook (55:40)
Hmm.
Yeah, look, definitely. think travel is particularly tricky because so often we're in a position where we can't have our toddlers screaming their lungs out in the middle of the night. You know, there's other guests at the hotel or maybe you're staying with family and you don't want them to hate you. So look, all you can do is your best during travel. What I often recommend to parents is having your portico right beside your bed and you can reach down into the portico and give them support as often as they need it.
They might be really cranky about being in that portico, but you can be confident they're not frightened. They're not worried, fearful, anything like that, because you're literally right beside them and you've got your hand on them when they need it. So try to get them through ⁓ with that kind of level of support if you can, much like if they're sick at home, set up a bed in their room beside their cot. They're actually going to sleep better in their normal sleep environment than they will in your bed, typically. So.
Dr Laura (56:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (56:40)
That's going to mean once they're better or you're back home, it's much easier to get things ⁓ back on track. ⁓ It's fine to be more hands-on if you're thinking, gosh, something really big has happened and they're not coping. ⁓ But my rule I try and get parents to stick to is just to keep them in the sleep space they're used to, because if they have some experience sleeping, you know, in the parent bed or falling asleep in your arms or whatever, they're at an age where they can remember. And yeah, it can be pretty hard to convince them why they need to be going back.
Dr Laura (56:52)
you
Fallon Cook (57:09)
⁓ in their cot again. ⁓ So yeah, I would say that's really key. And of course, if you've, if sleep has worsened, or even if sleep's never been great, and you're setting out to improve sleep, I always want parents to be thinking, work on the daily rhythm first, optimize sleep pressure, spend a week working on this daily rhythm that fits their sleep needs. And then you are 100 % confident that when you go to work on cot settling, if that's what your goal is,
Dr Laura (57:27)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon Cook (57:38)
That you're only doing it when we've optimized everything to make it as easy as possible on your child. And when it's easier on your child, it's easier on you. I feel like that's like the gold. That's what I want every parent to know. Don't worry about independent settling until you have nailed the daily rhythm and you're giving yourself the best shot at having a smoother transition to a different way of falling asleep. Yeah. I feel like that is just so, so important.
Dr Laura (57:45)
Yeah. It is.
Yeah.
is because you can honestly you can follow
any of our cot settling strategies to the letter and you're not going to gain traction if the sleep the daily sleep rhythm is completely unmatched to your child's unique sleep needs.
So if there is, you really have to have both. you know, sometimes parents will say, that's quite, they'll come and see me and they've been to a sleep school or they've seen another consultant and they'll say, that approach you've just talked through is quite similar to what so-and-so said to me and what the nurse said and what the pediatrician said. And I said, yeah, because these are evidence-based strategies, which we can tailor so that they're bespoke to the family. But they will only work optimally.
Fallon Cook (58:23)
Yes, it's yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (58:52)
when sleep pressure is high and sleep pressure is only going to be high when you have matched the daily rhythm to your child's sleep needs. So you're just on a hiding to nothing. If you jump straight into Sombelle and just pick up one of the settling strategies and try and use it before you've worked on the unique sleep needs chapter.
Fallon Cook (59:03)
Yes.
Dr Laura (59:13)
you're going to find yourself having really slow progress and wondering why other people are saying Som-Bell's so great. ⁓ Because you have, you've got to do all the components, absolutely including ruling out any medical factors as well. You there are, it's really important that you work your way through it because each step is vital for success.
Fallon Cook (59:19)
Yeah. Yep. You've got to do all the components. Yeah.
Yes.
Hmm. I think a good way to think about it too is if let's just say you're giving your toddler 14 hours of sleep opportunity and they've got a sleep need of 12 hours or it be a baby, baby or toddler. Then if you go to work on independent settling, you can expect two hours of screaming. That's essentially what it's going to end up as two hours. Cause you're trying to give them 14 hours that only need 12. So what are they doing now? The two hours generally they're going to be crying.
Dr Laura (59:57)
Yes. Yeah.
Fallon Cook (1:00:06)
really cranky, furious at being in their cot. So unless you love the idea of a two hour long settle, or it could be multiple shorter settles, but still really challenging ones, do the work on daily rhythm. It's just, it's that important and it's life changing. Yeah. All right. We've got. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's so true. Yeah.
Dr Laura (1:00:20)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
It is. And that's always your starting point. Sorry, Fallon, I know you're about to, but that is your starting point. We have to keep monitoring
their sleep needs. Because like you said earlier, Fallon, sometimes it's like a muscle that is being getting stronger and stronger, being able to self settle. And once your little one has a strong self settling muscle, they might be able to fall asleep with a lower sleep pressure. And then you might start to see their total sleep ⁓ duration, average duration increase.
Fallon Cook (1:00:39)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (1:00:54)
So always important to keep an eye on how much sleep they're getting and whether they need a little bit more.
Fallon Cook (1:00:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And once you know how to keep tweaking to adapt to their daily rhythm, you're going to be able to keep their sleep on track forevermore. And you'll be thinking about this stuff when they're 15 years old. You'll be thinking, how much sleep are they averaging? Is that the right bedtime? Yeah. It helps keep things on track for sure. All right. Lucky last question is from Eliza who has a three month old whose sleep need was previously calculated at around 15 hours and 45 minutes.
Dr Laura (1:01:03)
Yep.
Yes. You will.
You
Fallon Cook (1:01:26)
but has recently reduced to about 14 hours and 15 minutes. He now has a consistent first night feed at around 2 a.m. but from 5 a.m. onwards he wakes every 20 to 40 minutes and often needs to be held until morning. His naps are short, typically 28 to 42 minutes and he seems grumpy between sleeps, though he falls asleep independently.
Eliza is wondering whether she's reduced total sleep too much and how to approach both the early morning wakes and short naps. That's a big one to unpack, isn't it, for a little baby? They're sort of right on that cusp of change. What do think, Laura? .
Dr Laura (1:01:59)
Yeah, it is.
Yeah, yeah, so Eliza, your baby is ⁓ right at the point where their circadian rhythm system
is going to be ⁓ maturing and that ⁓
you know, in another few weeks, their sleep architecture will be changing so that it's more adult-like rather than the kind of active sleep and quiet sleep of younger babies. So we do expect sleep needs to drop. little babies tend to have much higher sleep needs ⁓ and it drops, can drop quite considerably in the first few months. Just the wording of your question just makes me, I'm just wondering you say, you're wondering if you have reduced the total sleep too much.
always adjust, know, at this age just monitoring the sleep needs. It's never about us reducing or you reducing their sleep opportunity. It's matching the sleep opportunity to what your child's total sleep duration is. And as I say, like a bear three month old having just over 14 hour sleep need, that's a nice amount of sleep and I would have expected it to have dropped from that nearly 16 hours a few weeks ago.
Fallon Cook (1:03:09)
Mm.
Dr Laura (1:03:11)
Sounds like his sleep
cycles are also beginning to stabilize somewhere between 28 and 42 minutes as the circadian rhythm system matures. You'll probably find that that ends up being more stable somewhere around 35 to 40 minutes, perhaps.
in all likelihood, the early morning wakes that you're experiencing are because the sleep needs have reduced ⁓ and your little one is just running out of sleep pressure from kind 5am onwards and finding it harder to maintain their sleep ⁓ and you are then holding them to sleep to try to protect that morning time for yourself. So I would be just having a think about
Looking at that daily rhythm, your little one is getting a bit older now, so you can start to be ⁓ massaging a ⁓ slightly more.
structured daily rhythm now. So thinking about perhaps bringing wake up to 6am rather than trying to aim for an 8am wake up or whatever wake up you're going for. Lots of babies are larks and do tend to want to start the day earlier. And just being mindful of that.
of holding your little one to maintain their sleep from five in the morning just because that can be a really dangerous activity to do because we normally as parents are shattered at that point as well. So if you're holding your little one on you just making sure that you're not falling asleep ⁓ and putting your family in a dangerous situation.
So yeah, I would be refining your daily rhythm. So it's providing around 14, 14 and a half hour sleep opportunity for your baby. Don't worry that they're having catnaps. ⁓ It may be that they need to have four or five short catnaps across the day, work on stabilizing that wake up time at a reasonable, ⁓ realistic ⁓ time for your little one. And you should start to find that the
early mornings aren't so challenging to manage ⁓ and as your little one gets older still they will probably start to combine some of those cat naps in the day so that they tend to have maybe one or two longer naps whilst maintaining one or two shorter naps. early days Eliza, join the four month program if you haven't already, a four to twelve month program because that will take you into troubleshooting for older babies.
Fallon Cook (1:05:42)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (1:05:52)
babies. Yeah, because I suspect you've got the naught to three month program. Anything that you would add Fallon?
Fallon Cook (1:05:55)
Hmm.
Yeah, just at this age, so often parents are still a little worried about overtiredness because it's only three months old. So overtiredness is only just starting to become a not so relevant thing. And so some parents are doing lots of cat naps because they seem tired and they're worried. They want to get them down to bed quickly. Don't be afraid to stretch out that time. Look for that point where your baby is constantly grisly and they're just done. Can't be distracted. That's when you put them down for a nap because often these babies will then do a longer nap.
Dr Laura (1:06:11)
Less ownership.
Fallon Cook (1:06:31)
And then they wake up happier and then they last longer. And so they can be stuck in a like cat nap grumpiness, cat nap grumpiness kind of cycle. So just monitor that Eliza. You might find you can stretch him out a bit longer, get some longer naps happening. And that might suit him really well. But for all these parents who have sent us in this amazing, these amazing questions, thank you so much. Do keep in mind we're here. We have coaching calls. If there's a few of these cases where I think, that's a bit tricky and
Dr Laura (1:06:31)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Yes.
Mmm.
Fallon Cook (1:06:58)
really would be great to sit down and look at your child's sleep diary and really help you navigate that. That's what we're here to do. If you're not a Sombelle member, you're just been listening in, you're having troubles with sleep, consider joining Sombelle. We can give you that helping hand and really help get things on track quickly. We don't like parents suffering too long. It's best to get the support you need so everyone can benefit from it. And of course, as you know, we have appointments available too. So if you're not really into an online program and you just want to have appointments with us,
Dr Laura (1:07:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Fallon Cook (1:07:28)
I've got availability in our telehealth clinic, Laura, you're in the Melbourne clinic as well for Melbourne locals. You also do telehealth as well. ⁓ We also have an incredible practitioner team. We've got an OT and a couple of children's nurses. They are fabulous. So we've got all these different ways of supporting you. So if you're needing help, you know, absolutely reach out. If you love the podcast, please leave us a review. Give us a five-star rating. Subscribe.
If you'd like to buy us a coffee to support the work we do, we will love you for it. It's always such a lovely surprise in the inbox when someone buys a cup up. But yeah, it's a pleasure as always. And if you're member and you've got a burning question, please send it through for the next episode. But otherwise that's us for this week. Have a great week.
Dr Laura (1:07:58)
Yes it is.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
