Fallon (00:37)
If your little one is actually a great sleeper, but they've decided a late bedtime and a long sleep in each day is their vibe, then this episode is for you. Maybe that late schedule worked beautifully for a little while, but then maybe you've got to go back to work, or the childcare start date is looming on the horizon, or maybe you just realize that you'd quite like some time to yourself in the evenings. Well, here's the good news. You
Absolutely, can shift that whole body clock earlier without losing the lovely solid sleep you've potentially worked quite hard for. So today I'm walking you through exactly how to bring bedtime and wake up time earlier. And I'll talk you through the fast way and the slow way so you can choose what suits your child best. So settle in because by the end of this one, you'll have a clear, doable plan to win back those evenings. Let's dive in.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook. I have a PhD and a couple of postdoctoral fellowships in infant sleep, and I'm a mum of three.
Well, it's great to be back, guys. I love recording these episodes and I love it when I've got a bit of an announcement to make, and I definitely do for this episode. I'm so, so, so excited about this. And I have to send a big thank you out to Alex T, who emailed in a question. we'll get to that question later. but one of the things Alex asked for is if we can put together an index of all the parent questions that have ever been submitted to the podcast, so it's really quick and easy to actually
Check, you know, has another parent had the exact same problem as you and has this question already been answered? it means not having to wait till the next episode to get your your question answered. You can actually just go and listen to it already. and so because this is something I've been thinking about for a really long time, and I'd started to do a bit of work on this idea because I could see there was huge value in it. And when I got Alex's email, I was like, that's it, I've got to do this, I'm doing it this week, I'm gonna finally get it done. so thank you, Alex, for the nudge.
So now what we have is an incredible new website for brand new little people. When I started to build the index of parent questions, I kind of went, you know what? We'll just do the whole website again. And I really want you guys to go and check it out because it's an incredible resource. I'll make sure the link is right up the top in the show notes and really easy to find. But it's brilliant because you arrive there, of course you can link straight through to Apple Podcasts or Spotify or YouTube.
You can just hit a button to just play the latest episode. you can also just pull up a really nice list where it just has every episode title and you can click the link and listen to it. Because that was something I didn't like about our old webpage was that it wasn't easy to see at a glance all the topics we've covered. And I think for a lot of parents, you're just thinking, you know, I really want to know more about night waking. So you really want to be able to find the episodes where we really did a deep dive into night waking without having to troll through pages and pages. So
There's a lovely red button where you can just browse all 121 episodes that we have up so far. But the really cool bit is the parent question index. So you can do things like selecting your child's age and then tapping on different topics or just typing in different topics to see, you know, the questions that really address that thing. And what I love is that you can tap to read the full question. So rather than a summary, you can read the actual full question. And after that, there's a little link that'll take you to that.
exact point in the episode where that question is answered. So it's great. I think it's brilliant and I'm really hoping you guys absolutely love it. it was quite a bit of work to pull it together, but so satisfying because these episodes have covered so many topics and covered them really, really thoroughly. So we definitely want to make that really usable for parents. So do go and check it out. If you notice problems, please shoot me an email because
It's impossible for me to check on every single question. If you're noticing something's not working properly, let me know so I can go and have a really close look at it. And every time I publish a new episode, I'll make sure we update that index pretty quickly. yeah, so I'm excited for that. Please go and check it out. have a bit of a look through. You might find something really helpful for your own situation. And big thanks to Talix for to bleh. Big thanks to Alex.
For the kick in the bum that I kind of needed to actually launch it and get it out there. yeah, so I'd love to hear your feedback on this, guys. If you love it, hate it, have a suggestion, let me know. that's always what we're trying to do with Sombelle and the podcast. We want to make it the best resource for parents. I've got some pretty cool stuff I'd like to do eventually with Sombelle to really make the membership.
super valuable and everything you need it to be and I'd love to hear all your ideas so you can really help to shape the future of Sombelle as well. Okay so this week's topic we're really going to dive into the late bedtime and the long sleep in. So I know this is not a problem that every parent faces. There's perhaps a small group of people who will find this really relevant but I tell you now it's worth tuning in because
As your child gets older, maybe in the late primary to high school age group, you're gonna find that you face some pretty big difficulties with them wanting to push their bedtime really late and also wake up really late the next day. it's a problem faced by a lot of parents of older children. but sometimes it does start in, you know, the baby and toddler years. And by tuning in today, you're gonna have the skills you need to tackle it if it does happen, you know, for you in future. But what's really, really important is
This advice, you know, I'm going to sort of talk through today is really for the babies and toddlers who already have pretty good nights. So if you're battling with really frequent night waking, now is not the time to be trying to bring bedtime earlier. I always say to families, we're better off keeping bedtime where it is, even if it's painfully late at the moment, but keep it where it is while you're making changes or anything you want to do. If you're trying to drop night feeds or
change how you're settling them. Don't be trying to bring their bedtime earlier at the same time because that will bring down the sleep pressure. And that can just make progress really, really tricky. so yeah, once you've got your nights sorted and you feel that you're going pretty well, maybe you've had a week or so of really solid nights under your belt, then you can start to gradually warp that bedtime and wake up time a bit earlier. So let's go through an example together and we'll talk through a few different options. So
Let's just imagine bedtime's really late, but so is the wake-up time. So in this little example case, maybe we're talking about a 9 p.m. bedtime for let's just say it's a 12-month-old, but they're waking up at about 8 a.m. And that might have been working really, really well for this family for quite a while. but often it's when we know that they've got to start childcare soon or you're gonna be back to work or
Have other carers, or just maybe you just want your evenings back as well, which is completely valid too. sometimes that prompts parents to go, okay, this late bedtime and long sleep in isn't going to keep working in future because we have to be up earlier in the morning, you know, and you want a bit of time, a bit of downtime to yourself in the evenings as well. So for this sort of situation, let's talk through how you might change things. So
The very first thing is you want to make sure when you're planning to move bedtime and wake up time that you're continuing to meet their unique sleep needs. So we aren't going to be adding on more sleep by bringing bedtime earlier. We're really just bringing that entire daily rhythm earlier. And that's really important. If we go to try and have a much earlier bedtime, and we're then suddenly offer offering heaps of opportunity for sleep and it's way more than what your child needs.
We're probably gonna see those nights worsen and I don't want that for you. Definitely not. then what you're gonna do is I want you to to decide what your end goal is. So maybe for my hypothetical family, they're thinking that they'd like something like a 7 30 p.m. bedtime and a 6 30 a.m. wake up. So have a think through what is it, what is the end goal for you? How much are we shuffling the daily rhythm along and write it down, have it jotted down somewhere can be really helpful to do that.
Then you've got a couple of options. So going to talk you through a really fast option and a really slow one. And I would say the fast option probably works okay for most children and families. but I would say if you have a very sensitive baby or toddler or you yourself find change really challenging, you may find it best to just move slowly. And that can work really well if you're not in a big hurry and you're happy to just inch things along, then going slow might be just an easier process for.
whole household. Alright, but first let's dive into the fast option. So you with the fast option, you do have the option of just making one massive change and then kind of waiting a week for their circadian rhythm to catch up, to figure it out and to kind of adapt to that change. So the really fast way for this hypothetical family would be to simply start waking their child at 6.30am, so a whole hour and a half before their usual wake up time.
you would also need to bring the naps an hour and a half earlier than they normally are, and bedtime an hour and a half earlier than it normally is. This is gonna mean a lot of really cranky behaviour. So for a baby or toddler, they're gonna feel really out of sorts. We can kind of relate as parents, can't we? Because we know what it's like to suddenly be up really early. It feels pretty gross. so this isn't for everyone because for some families it's just too hard to have such a cranky baby or toddler.
and we're making this adjustment. But what's really, you know, if you do take this really fast approach and you just go, we'll make all the changes, we'll weather a really crappy week, but we know that, you know, they're going to adapt in the end. What I really want you to know is that at bedtime in particular, you're likely to face some pretty tricky settling. So even though they still maybe had a similar length of time awake that day, similar amount of total day sleep, and you know, in theory they should be ready for bedtime at 7.30 pm.
If their body clock is sort of set to a 9 p.m. bedtime, there's a very good chance they will really struggle to fall asleep at 7 30. So in this case, what I want you to do is be really looking for signs that they are very, very tired before you attempt the bedtime. And this might mean you're not putting them down at 7 30. Maybe you keep watching and waiting. Maybe they're just full of energy and they're going and going and going. And then it's 8 p.m. or 8 30 p.m. where you go, they're
They're cooked. They are so done. That's when I want you to go and settle them for bed. But I still want you to get them up on time the next day. I still want you to like not overdo the day's sleep. Because we're showing their circadian rhythm that, you know, bedtime is earlier and we don't have time to play catch up if we keep staying up way past that new bedtime. so keep that in mind. you might just need to delay that bedtime until you're really seeing that they're genuinely ready to go to sleep. And also know that.
With this fast approach, they might be way more wakeful overnight. often when there's a big change like this for the circadian rhythm, it's like the wheels just completely fall off and you know everything becomes very random. You might get night wakings where you didn't used to have them. They could be just a bit all over the place because it's a bit of a shock for the system. Just don't let that bother you. Don't let it stress you out. if it does stress you out a lot, the thought of this happening, then maybe going slow is the better option for you.
But just I want you to keep front of mind that this is a big change. Things are gonna go really askew for a little bit. But if you just stick to that daily rhythm, getting them up on time, sticking to the same naps, working towards that new bedtime, probably after a week, their circadian rhythm's gonna cotton on and go, right, okay, I've got the memo. We really need to fall asleep at 7.30 because we get up at 6.30 every day. you know, our naps aren't increasing, the total day sleep's not increasing.
your child's decading rhythm is going to start to fall into that pattern a bit more predictably. And then you're through it. You're out the other side. You've done it. So hopefully there's some parents listening who are like, hell yeah, that fast approach is absolutely how I would want to approach it. If that kind of terrifies you, and I get it if it does, because a lot of parents have a lot of anxiety around sleep. And the thought of our children being mega cranky and potentially having some rough nights.
that can really make some parents spiral because they've already been through the ringer. And a lot of parents will say, I've got trauma for what we've been through. so it's completely valid just to take a real slow and steady approach if that feels like a good fit for you. So let's talk through the gradual option. So with the gradual option, we're going to work in 15 minute increments. So, you know, if we're starting with a 9 p.m. bedtime and an 8 p.m., sorry, 8 a.m. wake up time.
The very first step might be to just bring the wake-up time 15 minutes earlier, all the naps 15 minutes earlier, and bedtime 15 minutes earlier. So it's just a very small adjustment, hopefully not very noticeable to your baby or toddler. but it really starts with waking them up those 15 minutes earlier. So that that's hopefully setting the pace, I guess, for the rest of the day. you know, if they're up 15 minutes earlier, they're a bit more likely to go down for their nap 15 minutes earlier.
what you should start to see is that your child will start to fall asleep a little earlier than before. And as a rule, I tend to say that if they're falling asleep within about 15 to 20 minutes of their bedtime, then you're ready to shuffle everything 15 minutes earlier again. So you can kind of just wait a few days, wait until you feel like they've adjusted. Some parents will say, it was fine, we only waited a day or two. Others will say, It took us like a week because I've got a very sensitive child.
it's fine to take it at a pace that works for you. But once they're falling asleep within 15 to 20 minutes or so of bedtime, move everything 15 minutes earlier again. And you're just going to keep doing that. It might take you a week, it could take you three weeks. Just keep going at your child's pace and know that the real key is moving that wake up time earlier. Like I was saying earlier, it helps them be ready for their naps earlier. It helps them be ready for bedtime earlier.
Some parents get a little bit stuck and they'll say, it took them so long to fall asleep last night. I can't wake them up early. They'll be too upset. They'll be too cranky. Well, you have to. I'm just gonna be really firm on this one. You've gotta get them up on time. Because if you are trying to bring bedtime earlier, it's not going well, they're awake for ages, and then you just don't get them up on time in the morning. How tricky is that for their body to kind of make that?
adaptation to that new daily rhythm because it's not super consistent. So get them up on time and really just keep persisting. They might be a lot crankier than normal. We're not going to worry about that. Crankiness doesn't hurt. When they adapt to that new rhythm, their sleep will get back on track and they'll be fine. So I think that's really that's that's sort of a good overview of those two approaches. and I think if you're going with that gradual approach.
mapping it out on a bit of paper what those 15 minute changes are going to look like and what the exact times will be can just be really helpful in terms of of keeping things on track. If they randomly wake up really early one morning you might be able to fast track things a little bit. Just see how you're going. And really, really key when we're making any kind of changes to the daily rhythm at morning time when it's time for them to wake up.
You want to use light, noise, and calories to help them adapt to that new wake-up time. So what this means is if your wake-up time is maybe 7 a.m., then at 7 a.m. every morning you go in, you turn on the lights. You can do that gradually so you don't completely horrify your child by shining the big light in their eyes. but you're increasing the light, you're starting to make some noise. A lot of families will start the day with some happy songs or something to bop around to.
And you're offering that first feed of the day, or for older babies and toddlers, it might be brecky. But the light, the noise, and the calorie intake is a really clear signal to their circadian rhythm that this is the new time that we start the day. And it's really going to help them to adapt quicker. If they're kept in a really dark room for a long time, or the feed's delayed, or it's just really quiet and just feels a lot like nighttime still.
I think it's really hard to make that adaptation. So yeah, use light, noise, and calories and it's going to help that whole transition go a lot more smoothly. So I hope that helps. It was a lovely parent I saw the other week actually who pointed out that we don't really have much about this type of situation that's in some bowels. So I'm gonna put it on my list to create a lesson around this. I think we get really focused on just making the nights, you know, consistent and
more consolidated because for a lot of parents that well they just want you know more sleep overnight they don't care when bedtime or wake up time happens but then down the track inevitably you do you do start to go well does this bedtime work does this wake up time work and I want everyone to be able to have those skills to yeah make that adjustment if they need to awesome all right well if that left you with any questions please send them in for the next episode I'm happy to to go into this in a bit more detail if we need to
But for now, let's dive into this episode's parent questions. We've got nine of them, and they're really good questions, and they do kind of tap into this same sort of topic area quite a bit. all right, so let's start with Bella. Bella says she's implemented her 17-month-old daughter's new daily rhythm, which caters to her unique sleep needs, and she's been doing that for over a week now.
She says, unfortunately, she's still waking roughly every two hours overnight. She says, I'm still feeding her to sleep each wake up, and I'm wondering if this is responsible for all of the wake ups, or whether we need to reassess her daily rhythm. Bella says, should we expect to see fewer wake ups if her daily rhythm is right, or should I jump straight into night weaning? I absolutely love this question, Bella.
Look, adjusting the daily rhythm and working towards their unique sleep needs and building the sleep pressure overnight generally helps to some degree for most toddlers, but not all toddlers. Some of them are so motivated to feed overnight that they just keep springing awake. No matter how tired they are, they know that there's a feed on offer if they wake up and they demand it enough, you know, they know it's gonna happen. So
I would say working on night weaning is a really good idea at this point. Also, if she's feeding to sleep, then for a toddler, it can feel kind of upsetting if they feed to sleep and then suddenly they wake up and they've been moved to their cot. Some toddlers seem to hold a grudge and they get very, very cross at that kind of change in the night. So generally I would say if you're really confident you've worked on a great daily rhythm that fits their unique sleep needs, and there hasn't been a lot of change to the night waking.
I would just go straight into things like night weaning or, you know, an embellished situation too. Choose exactly what approach you're going to use to resettle your baby or your toddler without those overnight feeds. Because if you're just really consistent with your approach, it really helps them to quickly realize, okay, if my parent starts doing this same boring repetitive approach, you know, overnight, it means that there's just no feed this time. And when they learn that, you'll find you'll start your approach and they'll really quickly settle down.
and go off to sleep. So that's what I'd be thinking for you, Bella. I think you've made a great first step. Having that daily rhythm in place is so important. It's going to mean that when you do go to Night Ween, you shouldn't have any periods of low sleep pressure. You shouldn't have split nights or false starts popping up. at least not for very long. They'll very quickly disappear. So good luck with it, Bella. You're definitely on the right path.
Katie emailed in and she says, My daughter is 20 months old. She used to have a sleep need of 11 hours and 45 minutes, but that was when she was 18 months old. So Katie says she's going to check in on that again. Katie says her routine was to have an 8 p.m. bedtime, a 6.45 a.m. wake up, and a one hour nap. Her mornings were often quite cranky and unpredictable. So Katie trialled adding 15 minutes of sleep to the morning, so a 7 a.m. wake up.
And she says it seemed to work wonderfully for a week. Her mornings were consistently lovely. She was happy and having no issues getting to her nap time. But Katie says suddenly things changed. She started not wanting to go to bed, happily protesting, asking for books, music, yogurt until 9 p.m. Katie says this happened three times in one week. The following day, after a late night, she's absolutely exhausted.
but Katie says she tries her best to keep her on track, getting her up at the 7 a.m. wake up and sticking to the routine. She says it goes well for a couple of days and then there's another 9 30 p.m. bedtime. Katie says she's going to trial cutting about 30 minutes from her overall sleep, but she feels like maybe her daughter's preference is to have a later bedtime of maybe 8 30 p.m. and a 7 a.m. wake up, even though 8 p.m. to 6 30 a.m. is probably the better option for their family.
Katie says, I know there's no hard and fast rules, but does some children, even at such a young age, have a preference for being a night owl over a morning lark? It's only half an hour, so she says we'll do whatever we need to have a happy toddler, as a cranky one is no fun. but she asks if we have any ideas or advice about these late nights. Katie, you are so on the right track. I love that you're, you know, you're
keeping you're thinking around sort of the total sleep needs of your daughter and whether that's changed. So that's absolutely perfect. and you're thinking about making some tweaks to test out, you know, if you can move things around a bit, which I 100% back. I think that is such a good idea. to answer your question, yeah, I think definitely all humans can have a preference for being a night owl or a morning lark. The night owls really like a late bedtime and a longer sleep in.
the morning larks, no matter what we do, they spring awake really early and then they just seem to love it. What I would say is that even if we as humans have a preference for, you know, some sort of biological preference, I guess, for being a night owl, we can change it. We just have to change it and usually we have to manage it. I can I'm gonna give myself as an example here. If I've got like a whole extended period of leave, my bedtime will creep later, probably to about
midnight or so and my wake up time will creep to maybe close to 8 a.m. something like that. and that's just what I prefer. I love doing stuff in the evenings. Not such a fan of the early wake ups. But when I'm working, I have to be up at quarter past six. So I have to kind of keep a track of my bedtime, make sure I'm getting to bed around sort of 10 30 pm, somewhere around that mark, so that I can get up on time in the morning. I might not love it. Might not be my preference.
Excuse me. But I've really trained my circadian rhythm that this is what I expect. And because I meet my total sleep need, I feel great every day. So we can do the same things with our toddlers. Even if they prefer a later bedtime, we are allowed to just say, nah, we're not doing a late bedtime. We're gonna have an earlier one. We still make sure we are catering to their unique sleep needs, exactly like Katie's doing. It's perfect, but we just engineer it so that that daily schedule they're on.
works for our family. and that tends to to be a manageable thing to do. So the other thing I would say for you, Katie, is yeah, definitely look at that daily rhythm and see if something needs tweaking there. the bedtime and the way she's pushing it later. I think we need to gently put the brakes on things, like yogurt would be a really good example. What I highly recommend is in Sombelle in the toddler program, go into the
I forget the name of the lesson. It's the one that's about the tricky bedtimes when bedtimes are pushing a bit late. find that lesson because there are steps in there for implementing a bedtime routine chart. So it's a pictorial chart you use with your child and it allows you to put things in an order. You can ask them to tell you what's next on that chart. You can stick it on their bedroom wall. and it's a great way to keep them on track because when they do go.
you know what? I want music. I want another book. I want another yogurt. You can say, hold on, let's look at the chart. What does the chart say? no, there's no yogurt on the chart. Sorry, we're not doing that tonight. And look, there will be times when she gets really cranky with you for not allowing her to have these extra things. But if we don't put a break on all of those extra things that we're adding, it will spiral. And I've seen it time and time again. They suddenly realize, there's all sorts of things on offer at bedtime if I ask for them.
so have that bedtime routine chat. Whether a few tricky bed times where she gets upset because you're suddenly you're saying no to the books or the music or whatever extra thing she's adding. but it's gonna serve you well in the long run because she'll realize, okay, once we start that bedtime routine, this these are the only things that happen. there's not flexibility here. We really do go to sleep at the end of that routine. And because you've worked on the daily rhythm, you'll be feeling really confident that when that routine finishes and it's bedtime, she's genuinely ready for sleep.
So we're not asking her to fall asleep and she's not tired enough or hasn't had her needs met. We make sure that routine chart absolutely meets her needs. We make sure the daily rhythm meets her needs. And that's what's really gonna line you up for success, Katie. so yeah, good luck. I'd love to hear an update on how you go with that. and if you need a bit of a hand sort of planning out how to tackle things, very happy to help you on your coaching call.
Okay, next up is our question from Alex T. We've got a couple of Alex's this week, so that's why I'm using the T. Alex says, I'm trying to transition my six and a half month old to two naps, and I want to improve her daily rhythm. Late in the day when it's not yet bedtime, so maybe it's 7 p.m. and we're aiming for a 7.30 p.m. bedtime. Alex says she sometimes becomes inconsolable and she's crying while playing.
Alex asks, is this a sign that she's ready for bed and I should just move her bedtime earlier? Or is this to be expected with a baby and I should just comfort her until bedtime? Brilliant question, Alex. I would be trying to push through to that new bedtime as close as you can. So when they move from three naps to two naps, there's always maybe two to three weeks where they are a little bit hideous at the end of the day. They're still struggling to make that change to having two naps.
And that longer amount of time in the lead up to bedtime can feel really long for them. So don't be afraid of the crankiness. It's not going to do any harm. Just gently keep pushing to get closer and closer to that 7.30 p.m. bedtime. and that's really going to show her circadian rhythm that, you know, this is the new daily rhythm. So we've really got to try and get on board with this new bedtime. It's not going to wobble around too much. the more consistent you are with that, the quicker she'll make that adaptation. But
It definitely does take two or three weeks. the three to two nap transition can be a bit of a wobbly one. but she's six and a half months old, sounds like she's ready for it. So hopefully she'll get through it really quickly. So thanks for sending in that question, Alex. Okay, Stella wrote in all the way from Germany, which is so cool. We have families all around the world doing Sombelle. I absolutely love it.
So Stella wrote in about her nearly 16-week-old daughter who she'd like to start settling in her cob. At the moment, they co-sleep, and Stella breastfeeds her to sleep at night. Her daughter wakes about four times a night wanting to feed back to sleep. So Stella is getting very little sleep. Oof. Each waking takes around 30 minutes to resettle, and she finds it hard to tell whether her daughter is truly asleep and kind of dream suckling.
Or is she still awake? When she tries to unlatch her, most of the time her daughter desperately wants the breast back again, and only occasionally will she stay asleep. Stella says day naps are also a challenge. Her daughter will only sleep in the carrier while being bounced. Stella, that is exhausting, you poor thing. Stella says she's recently started introducing some padding and some shushing to those settles.
but she says for the naps, her daughter can't be put down at all. She springs awake the moment she's set down, even if Stella waits twenty minutes. she says in the carrier, she usually naps well, maybe for one to one and a half hours. Stella's been tracking sleep for weeks, and her daughter gets around twelve to thirteen hours total sleep. she says if she's tracking the night correctly. and she says it's roughly four to four and a half hours.
Of sleep in the daytime and seven and a half to eight and a half hours overnight. So that's a lot of day sleep and not a lot of night sleep. Stella says the biggest problem though is the intense crying before every nap. Five to ten and sometimes fifteen minutes of heartbreaking crying before she falls asleep. And the only time she doesn't cry is when she's fed to sleep.
She also has an early evening witching hour, crying for about 40 minutes. Stella, my heart goes out to you. That's really, really tricky. Stella's got several questions. So, first she says, How can she track her daughter's night's sleep correctly? is her daughter actually sleeping when she's suckling overnight? maybe I'll go through these one at a time. So, for this first question, I would say it's really, really hard, and I can't give you an exact
answer on whether she's actually sleeping. You could assume that she is. You know, if she seems, if she seems like she's asleep, track it as being asleep. Worst case scenario, you slightly overestimate the sleep needs. It's not the end of the world. And you'll pretty quickly know that you've overestimated those sleep needs because you'll still be really wakeful. and you could always dial it back later on. So that's how I would approach that.
Stella asks, how can she minimize the crying before naps? She says keeping her awake a little longer seemed to help slightly, but it's still pretty intense. Sometimes her daughter shows several tired signs yet cries hard when put down, and other times Stella isn't sure she's tired, but she settles fairly quickly. Yeah, it's really tough. She's right at that age where the circadian rhythm's going through huge maturation. and we've got
you know, a lot of babies who really struggle with transitions. So as soon as they know we're going to try and settle them for sleep, they get really cranky. Or it could be the case, Stella, that your baby is really sensitive to those feelings of fatigue in her body. You know, they can find that feeling kind of unsettling and it can cause a lot of crying. What I would be thinking though, and really holding firm in your mind, Stella, is that she is okay. She's in your arms, you know, even for contact nap, she's having this big cry before she falls asleep.
But you're there with her, you're supporting her and comforting her. And I would say over time that crying will start to decrease. Stella also wants to know: is the witching hour still normal at this age and how can she reduce it? look, I wouldn't exactly call it a witching hour, but at this age, it's pretty normal for babies to be cranky in the evenings and have a bit of time where nothing seems to make them happy. I would say it.
It starts to reduce around the four-month mark, which she's just getting to now, Stella. So over the next few weeks, you'll probably see a big change in her crying behaviour. Overall, it should reduce quite a bit. She also asks how to know when her daughter's ready to get up in the morning because she's trying to establish a fixed wake-up and bedtime. And will settling her in the cot reduce the overnight wakes?
So look, I would say, Stella, from what I've heard, and I'd love to talk to you in a coaching call about this, because it sounds quite complicated. So if you want to book in for one, please do. I think, you know, from what you've said, Stella, we've got too much day sleep happening and not enough night sleep. That balance is a bit out of whack. So I would definitely work closely through that unique sleep needs chapter.
if there's a time in the morning your baby really consistently wakes up, well you could just make that the wake-up time, but then make sure maybe you start by assuming it's something like a 13-hour total sleep need because there's some variability. We'll we'll aim high, we'll go for 13 hour sleep need. build the daily rhythm around that and then just start to really consistently implement that for a whole week. And that is the best place to start.
Don't try to work on cot settling when you're still seeing a lot of this crying behavior. And there's signs there that she's not quite tired enough asleep too. Like overnight, taking thirty minutes to get back to sleep, even though she's feeding, is quite a long time. So I would spend a week, make it your primary focus to really optimize that daily rhythm, work towards her unique sleep needs so you know sleep pressure's really nice and high overnight. Then start to work on the cot settling. And definitely the cot settling should
result in fewer night wakes because your baby's not going to get that startle of hang on, I was feeding a moment ago and now I'm suddenly in my cot and how did this happen? They're not going to get that shock. They'll fall asleep in their cot, they'll rouse overnight and go, yeah, I'm still here and it's all the same. And she'll be, you know, if she can, she'll resettle herself. there's so much more I could say about your situation, Stella, but I think, you know, it'd r require a a deep conversation. That's probably a bit too much for the podcast.
But I do hope those few little bits of advice are helpful. Good luck. next we have Kerry. Kerry's been closely tracking her five and a half month old sleep, and it appears like her sleep cycles are lengthening. A length I'm really stumbling over my words today. It appears that her sleep cycles are lengthening. but she says it's somewhat inconsistent.
Carrie says at three months of age, she would stir and wake up after 35 minutes, but now it's more often around the 45 minute mark. So she wants to know: does sleep cycle lengths change over time? And she says, if I'm reviewing her daily rhythm and determining nap length, do I need to worry about her sleeping more and disrupting night sleep if her actual sleep cycle lengths have increased? This is a fascinating question. I love it. So, yes.
Sleep cycles do change in length over time. So generally before six months of age, this is a big generalization. So you know, don't quote me on this, but before six months of age, much more common for a sleep cycle length to be around about that 30 minute mark or so. Around six months or a little bit older, we definitely start to see them stretching out. usually by eight or nine months, we're looking at more like forty to forty-five minutes duration.
As for do we worry about the longer naps impacting the nights, I'd be aware of it. I'd definitely be keeping an eye on it. If you notice that, you know, with naps, ideally we work in increments of how long their sleep cycles are, so that when they wake up or if we need to wake them up, they're, you know, not too cranky. if the naps are getting longer to allow for a longer sleep cycle, and you see the nights are worsening or settling is getting really hard.
Well, that answers your question and we need to go back to well, how much sleep are we offering this child? And maybe we're offering too much opportunity and they just can't manage it. so I would still be thinking about their total sleep needs and really catering to that. some parents will find that over time the naps lengthen, doesn't make a difference to the night, and that's awesome. But I my gut feeling is that probably for most it would start to have an impact. So it's something to keep an eye on for sure.
Okay, let's move on to Phoebe. Phoebe wrote in about her 15-month-old who has had periods of sleeping, reasonable stretches, but they never seem to last. She says over the past few weeks, she and her partner have made a lot of thoughtful changes, like stopping overnight feeds and and stopping co-sleeping. They're only settling him to sleep in his cot. He's got a consistent bedtime routine.
And they've been trimming back a day nap that was a little long. He's now used to settling without needing much hands on support. They tend to just stand near the cot and pick up for cuddles as needed. Phoebe says despite all of this, after a good night or two, they keep hitting one or two horrendous nights. They're unsure how much it is down to other factors because he seems to catch a new virus most weeks at daycare and is teething on and off. it's a tricky age.
they've been to an early parenting center and their GP who both advise that they're doing all the right things and that he is physically well. Phoebe describes being desperate and exhausted, just trying to survive work and parenting, and she says, I feel like my whole life has just become about sleep and survival. Phoebe, you're really not alone. just know that even if you can't see us all, there are a lot of us, a lot of parents listening in who are in the same boat as you.
It can feel very isolating, but you're definitely not alone. thankfully Phoebe has an appointment coming up, so we're going to really address most of Phoebe's questions in that appointment, which is a really good idea because I think we really need to do a good deep dive and and think through what what's happening here. but I know that the central theme of Phoebe's question is really relevant to a lot of families, so I want to discuss this one on the pod.
Which is how do we know as parents whether there's anything left in our control or not when it comes to sleep? and I think this is a really, really insightful question from Phoebe, because you know, we can feel like we've tried all these things. How do we know when we've just tried enough? You know, and there's just something outside of our control at play. what I would say is if you're in this situation like Phoebe, where you've done
All the right things and it should be coming together and it's not. I would say most parents are, you know, doing themselves a very big favor by doing what Phoebe's done and booking in an appointment to have a really thorough assessment done. Because so often I see this on our Instagram feed all the time. I see parents who've got children who are eight or nine years old, sometimes they're teenagers, and they're talking about how.
They could never get sleep happening in the early months. They tried this, they tried that, they did this other thing. And I hear about these situations and I think, I just so wish I could have sat down with them when their child was a baby or a toddler and really thoroughly ch like really gone through everything, every factor with them, so that we can feel so confident that we've done everything that we can. Because I'm a big believer that sleep can be improved always.
I really think that, yeah, even for the most challenging sleepers, the ones that grow up to have sleep problems, there are so many different ways we can support sleep if we approach it with a mindset of really catering to individual need, preferences, sensory profiles, temperament, really taking everything into account.
But I think you really have to meet with someone who really understands sleep and circadian rhythms to be able to feel really confident that you've checked those things off the list. Anyway, so to get back to the question, obviously illness and teething are not things you can really control a lot, but I would say panodol and neurofin are amazing. And often if we can just, you know, if we know there's pain or discomfort and we can manage it, it can mean being able to push ahead with a sleep plan instead of chopping and changing and then
Having you know a baby or a toddler who's feeling a bit confused about the changes. So use panodol and urifum when you can. Then I would say we have to look at everything all at once. All factors all at once have to be addressed. That means we nail the daily rhythm. Obviously, we check off all the physical factors as well, which sounds like the GP has already done. But we nail that daily rhythm so we really know that sleep pressure is where it needs to be, and we've really optimised things.
We then look at every component of the settling because sometimes for toddlers, it's something really little happening that is causing them to keep waking, you know, keep pushing back at bedtime, you're having these random tricky nights. it's some little motivating factor. And it can be something so small. And me, my team, we're like these little forensic scientists when we think about these things. We are we just we can usually dig it out.
There's usually something that's making that toddler wake up. We usually identify it and then it's problem solved. We can fix it. and then we're looking at motivating things overnight as well. Are they having feeds? is there anything else going on overnight that's really motivating them to wake up? And sometimes we're looking at things like has a new sibling arrived? you know, is there a change in the household? One parent's on shift work or you know, there's so many things that we could go through. but I think we, you know, it's worth it.
If you're having a really tricky time with sleep, I think every parent deserves to have someone sit down with them and forensically go through it all so that you can get consistently good nights. And I'll say this to you, Phoebe, to give you some hope. If he is sometimes having fantastic nights, I would almost put money on it that he can consistently have fantastic nights. We just have to figure out what that variable is that's making it all a bit wobbly. Okay, well that was a big one.
Now let's move on to Sarah. So Sarah has a 10-month-old baby boy who has recently improved his overnight sleep after getting the daily rhythm right and implementing the supported accelerated approach, where they added in picking him up when he was upset. Sounds lovely. And well done Sarah. That's great. She says after two challenging nights, he went from waking four or five times a night to just once.
She says we coasted along for two great weeks and after two weeks we are now back to him waking and being distressed for an hour in the middle of the night. She says we haven't changed anything and continue to implement the same approach. Is it just a glitch and do we continue on or is there something we are missing? Do we perhaps need to reduce his day's sleep further?
He currently has a 12 hour sleep need, and we're aiming for 10 hours overnight with an 8 p.m. bedtime, 6 a.m. wake up, and two hours of day naps over two sleeps in the daytime. this is another brilliant question, Sarah. So there are two things to think about. The first is his sleep needs might have just dropped off. Because across that first year, they do. Sometimes they just drop off and suddenly they're awake. They've got the self-settling skills, the daily rhythm's fine.
you know, they've they've had enough sleep pressure, but suddenly the total sleep need has dropped and we're just left with a bit bit extra, bit extra opportunity to sleep that they're not not needing anymore. It might be time to tighten the rhythm. But first, so often, it's really common after we work on cot settling, even if we're using a very gradual approach or a really fast one, often about
10 to 14 days after starting, parents will report that they had a few rotten nights that are just really, really tricky. And it's like they're just testing, hang on, you know, I know you you used to feed me to sleep, or I used to get to go to your bed sometimes. And they're kind of just testing that theory of maybe if I really push for it, this time they'll go back to what we used to do. and that that can last a few nights and then it disappears and it's smooth sailing from there and
They're really through that whole adjustment. So have a think, Sarah. Is it just that little bumpy patch that's really common kind of 10 to 14 days after starting cot settling? Or if it's really lingering, then have a look at the total sleep average at the moment. Has it gone down a little bit? And yeah, maybe it's time to adapt it because an hour's a long time in the middle of the night. and Sarah certainly knows that.
All right, good luck, Sarah. I think you know it's going to come together really quickly for you, and I'll have my fingers crossed. Emily wrote in, she says, we've been doing the supported accelerated approach with good effect, but have a few questions about how long to continue the method and how to know when we can wean off it. That is, put him to bed using a less rigid approach. She also asks if we offer online appointments. So yeah, Emily, Sombelle members can book in coaching calls with me.
so if you're really struggling with this, please just just book in. we can have a good chat, look at the sleep jarry together and really, really iron out anything in the plan. We'll make sure it's crystal clear and you've got just exactly what you need to make progress. But I think you raise a really good question around, you know, how long do we continue the method for? How do we know when we can wean them off it? Essentially with supported accelerated approach or with any of our approaches.
The goal is that you get to a point where you put them down at bedtime. You do your little your usual goodnight routine. It might be, you know, a kiss or it might be just a few pats and a phrase that you say. and then you should find that you can wander away and they just don't need you to go back. They're just content, they put themselves off to sleep, they can do that whole process themselves.
so with the supported accelerated approach, you should find over time, as you're gradually stretching out the time before you go back over and reassure them, that they're actually starting to not need you to always go back over. So when parents ask this question in particular, I often do wonder if they are constantly going back over, maybe in just one or two minute intervals, they're constantly coming and going and doing this thing over and over again, even when their baby's starting to settle down and calm for sleep.
And that's something to look for. If your baby's starting to calm down, don't go back over. Just just watch, wait, let them put themselves off to sleep. If we keep being super, super hands-on and we're going over all the time, sometimes we're actually interrupting them from getting themselves off to sleep. so yeah, the aim is that that pats and the phrase that you're doing at bedtime will be what you do, you'll leave the room and they'll do the rest themselves. So
You're not then really sticking to rigid intervals, except if you do have a random tricky settle, you will go back to just repeating the same patsen phrase and briefly, you know, coming and going from the room and and all that jazz. So yeah, well done. It sounds like things are going really well, Emily. And over time you should find that you can put down, say goodnight, walk out, and they're all sorted. That's the holy grail, I think, for so many parents.
Okay, and last question is from Alex S. So Alex has a seven and a half month old baby who's responded really well to a new daily rhythm and using the supported accelerated approach. Alex says he was waking seven to ten times a night since he was three months old and is now sleeping through. Alex says it's life changing. I bet it is, Alex. That is phenomenal.
And I can't imagine how much better you must be feeling day to day as a parent. It makes such a massive difference. So Alex says, we have even been able to add an extra one and a half hours of sleep to the nighttime. Because his night sleep is longer, we have quickly transitioned from three to two naps, which is the perfect age to do it. But finding he's only napping for 30 to 45 minutes at a time and waking up crying and cranky and is tired for the rest of the day.
He's also falling asleep during some breastfeeds. Alex says, we originally thought he had low sleep needs of around 12 hours, but he is now consistently sleeping 11 and a half hours overnight plus the two naps and he still seems tired. She says, can we give him more support to resettle to lengthen his day naps? so soothing in the cod or maybe rocking him? or will this undo the progress from the supported accelerated approach that they've been working on?
Alex says, secondly, should we be using the supported accelerated approach for night wakes forever or just for a training phase? About once a week he's waking in the night and needing intervention. We are still doing the supported accelerated approach, and it can take 30 to 60 minutes to settle as he's quite distressed. Could we offer more support during these wakes now that he's consistently sleeping well, or will it undo our progress? Okay, Alex, I would say stick to
supported accelerated approach. I wouldn't be introducing anything extra to extend the naps or resettle overnight. And I think a little bit of a sleep pressure problem has started to creep in. I love that your baby has managed more sleep than they did previously because sometimes this happens, not all the time, but it does sometimes happen. So it's great that you've experimented and you've added a little bit more in. But I think we might have overshot the mark because why would
your baby be waking up overnight for 30 to 60 minutes. if they've absolutely nailed self-settling by the sounds of it. So they know how to get themselves back to sleep, then why would they be awake so long when you go in and do the same thing overnight? To me, it really just comes down to sleep pressure. So I would, you know, how much sleep have they been averaging over the past week? And then build your new daily rhythm based around that and go all in for a week.
just really go all in. Cause if he's consistently waking for half an hour to an hour overnight, it might be that yeah, we're just overshooting the mark there somewhere. There's a few things to think about too. If nights are consistently improving, sometimes the day naps will get a bit shorter. So he might have sort of pushed too much sleep to his nights and now for the day naps he's not getting very much. The sleep pressure's not there, but he's still kind of cranky and not managing it.
I I would say look at that average, come up with a daily rhythm that feels manageable for you, trial it for an entire week and stick to it really strictly. At the end of that week, we kind of know where all the cards have landed, and you're gonna have a good sense of, yep, this sort of daily rhythm works really well, or no, it's terrible. We need to change something again. But we need to implement one thing for a full week to just really see how he goes and if he can settle into it before we go and change anything else.
and yeah, I wouldn't bring in the variability. I wouldn't be if you really feel like you need to extend a day nap, do it in the pram or the car rather than in your arms. Because if they, you know, especially at this age, if they realise, well hang on, sometimes if I'm really cranky, I get cuddled to sleep, fed to sleep, you know, put in the carrier for sleep, then they just go, cool, got the memo. I've got to get really cranky really fast. And then I'll really quickly have this other thing to get off to sleep.
And it's not manipulation. They are just like little scientists. They are figuring out how the world works and they're pretty switched on at this age. So to keep the crying to a minimum, I'd really just continue with the same settling approach for all settles and make sure you've really nailed that daily rhythm. We want that split night that he's having to really start to disappear and for him to be resettling really quickly. That's going to tell us that we've got the daily rhythm on track. So I hope that.
Answers your question there, Alex. If you want to work together, of course we can. It might be helpful to really have a look at that daily rhythm together if you're finding it really hard, but give it a crack and see how you go over the next week or so. All right. Wow, what an amazing set of questions that was. I love answering these questions and so many of them did tie into that kind of topic that we have for this episode around shifting bedtime and wake-up time.
so that was really lovely. That's a nice way to support the content. have you left a review yet? Have a look at your podcast app right now if you're on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or some other app. If you can please just give us a five-star review, write something lovely about us, maybe tell us something that really, you know, a bit of advice that really resonated for you. It just really helps the algorithm or whatever, you know, for these apps to push out our episodes to parents who need it.
that's how we get found and that's how we can rescue more parents from the pits of fatigue and despair that we feel around baby and toddler sleep. So please take a moment to do that. Would really, really appreciate it. And tell your friends as well, because word of mouth is such a powerful thing. yeah, if you're needing extra support, of course check out some bow, booking an appointment. you know, we're here to support you guys, so do draw on that support if you need it.
And go and check out that parent question index. I just think this is brilliant. If you're struggling with something, crying, sleep, night wakes, feeding, early rising, whatever it is, go and put it in that index right now and go and listen to some episodes where we talk about how to resolve these things. It could be game changing for you. Maybe do that and then go leave us the review. thank you so much for tuning in, guys. We appreciate each and every one of you. Take care of yourself.
And yeah, I'll be back in another fortnight.
