Fallon (00:37)
Every now and then I get to speak to someone who sits in a really unique position. And today's guest is one of those people. Dr. Halaina Winter is a clinical psychologist, the founder of Sydney Child and Family Practice, and she has a special interest in assessing and supporting children with neurodevelopmental differences. She also happens to be a Sombelle member and a mum to a one-year-old.
Which means she came to this parenting gig with a lot of expertise, yet, like all of us, absolutely no immunity to sleep deprivation. I think there's something really powerful about hearing from someone who holds so much expertise, yet who is still a regular mum navigating the same beautiful, exhausting, humbling experience as the rest of us. This is a conversation I think every new parent needs to hear.
So let's get into it.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombelle Paediatric Sleep Clinic programs. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and today I'm here with Dr. Halaina Winter. Welcome to the Brand New Little People podcast.
Dr Halaina Winter (01:58)
Thank you so much as a listener for many, many, many weeks and months.
Fallon (02:04)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (02:06)
it's it's a real pleasure to be on the other side.
Fallon (02:09)
amazing. Well, do you want to tell our listeners a little bit about sort of who you are and what you do?
Dr Halaina Winter (02:15)
Yeah, so I I am a clinical psychologist with a PhD. I, as you mentioned before in in the beautiful intro, I run Sydney Child and Family Practice. it is a psychology practice that focuses on children, families, kids, the the family system. And I also do some work with adults individually as well. But I have a really
extensive background, I suppose you'd say, working in multidisciplinary teams. So with your OTs and your speechies and your special educators and and and teachers working with family systems where there is you know a a child who might be on the spectrum or presenting with ADHD. And that has been very formative in how I practice
just now as a clinical psychologist in my own practice.
Fallon (03:13)
Mm, so interesting. You're also a mum to a one-year-old, which is why I was extra keen to have you come on the pod. So let's start there. Tell me, you know, what
Dr Halaina Winter (03:18)
Yeah. Yes.
Fallon (03:24)
was your adjustment to motherhood like?
Dr Halaina Winter (03:27)
Yeah, look, I think there is a real chasm between the academic and what it's like to be in the trenches.
Fallon (03:35)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Halaina Winter (03:35)
you know, when you're sleep-deprived, raising a little baby, trying to keep the house afloat because you're the one who's on Mat Leave, trying to fit in
Fallon (03:45)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (03:45)
some self-care and then going back to work, trying to keep yourself healthy, you know, that whole narrative that's we receive as mums.
From society, there is
Fallon (03:58)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (03:59)
so much more emotion, there is so much less bandwidth to think clearly. that even with all the theory that I came with, of course, I still
Fallon (04:09)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (04:09)
question my fair share of parenting choices most days. So yeah.
Fallon (04:14)
Yeah. I can so relate to that. Like my
research was sort of working in, you know, a lot of the parenting space and you can know a lot of things, but when, you know, there's a baby screaming at you, like you can't think about any of that. It's just
Dr Halaina Winter (04:28)
Yeah.
Fallon (04:29)
you're in survival mode. yeah, but do you feel like your clinical background has sort of helped at all, or did it just feel so irrelevant once you were in the thick of it?
Dr Halaina Winter (04:39)
No, it definitely did help. And I actually feel incredibly
Fallon (04:41)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (04:42)
grateful for that. You know, people often say you don't do a degree to become a parent. I'm like kind of like, well, I kind of did. Actual, yeah, yeah.
Fallon (04:49)
I I I feel like it'd be great if there was a parenting degree we could do.
Dr Halaina Winter (04:55)
but look, I think my years working alongside speechies and OTs and teachers, and obviously my own psychology training.
What it really helped with was that sensitivity, responsivity, and being able to like see my daughter through the lens of a mother, but also the lens of like what is she trying to communicate with me? I found that really helpful. And also I just I knew how to play with her. And I think I speak with so
Fallon (05:29)
Right.
Dr Halaina Winter (05:30)
many.
parents and they're like, I just don't know what to play with, like how to play with my child. I don't know what toys to buy them. Whereas
Fallon (05:39)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (05:41)
I think I felt very grateful and humbled that I had that background, that playing with her feels very natural. I know how to extend on you know, her skills and and what might what's developmentally appropriate. And I I f I do feel like
Fallon (05:59)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (06:00)
that was very helpful.
Fallon (06:01)
It does help. I had a few years as a nanny under my belt before I had kids
Dr Halaina Winter (06:05)
Mm.
Fallon (06:05)
and that was just great practical experience. I think what I
Dr Halaina Winter (06:08)
Yeah.
Fallon (06:10)
pull from my PhD is I love that when I'm confused about something with parenting, I know how to find the research that will calm me. Like 'cause so much of
Dr Halaina Winter (06:19)
Absolutely.
Fallon (06:20)
yeah, so much of parenting when we're stressing out, it's like not even something we really need to be all that worried about.
And just seeing, you know, all the evidence around like, you know, good enough parenting, I find that really reassuring.
it
just means you're a little bit more resilient, aren't you? When you hear some nonsense online that's really alarming, you can just kind of go, okay, well, I'm gonna put my researcher hat back on now and actually go and investigate this. Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (06:42)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
And I think so that really resonates with me as well. And I think, as well as a practitioner, you know, because help seeking, I'm always encouraging people to be very help seeking if they feel that they need it. You know, I have my own therapist. I know that when you're
Fallon (07:02)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (07:03)
deep into something that you can't see it clearly, and none of us are meant to do this alone. And I think
Fallon (07:08)
Yes.
Dr Halaina Winter (07:10)
like,
Parents know their child best and professionals know what the research says. And I think this is kind of leads into why I reached out to you at Sombelle because I needed that reassurance and I needed the research to link to how what I knew of my child. So I'll bring my child, you bring the frameworks,
Fallon (07:32)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (07:34)
and how can we meet together to help
Fallon (07:36)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (07:37)
to help me and my child? and I think.
Fallon (07:40)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (07:41)
having a being in that help seeking position, I feel very comfortable to say, I need help.
Fallon (07:48)
Yes.
I hope that's really validating to parents to hear that even a clinical psychologist can have their own therapist, you know, can see, I'm having this problem in my parenting and I'm wanting support with it. And it's absolutely fine. In fact, it is a wonderful golden thing to have these relationships where, you know, you've got people you can draw that support from. Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (08:09)
Mm, and you're meant to.
Fallon (08:11)
Yeah, exactly. We're just not meant to be, yeah, alone at home with a baby with no connection. So yeah, if
Dr Halaina Winter (08:15)
No. Yeah.
Fallon (08:17)
you don't have a village around you, you can build one. Yeah, it's
Dr Halaina Winter (08:20)
Yeah.
Fallon (08:21)
so important. And I know Halaina, you had some experience with split nights with your little one. Can you tell me a bit about what
it was like kind of living through that? How did you manage,
you know,
Dr Halaina Winter (08:32)
Yeah.
Fallon (08:33)
when sleep was just really tricky?
Dr Halaina Winter (08:36)
Yeah. Well, great question. How did how did I manage? I think
Fallon (08:39)
It's probably a bit of a blur now.
Dr Halaina Winter (08:42)
I think there was I would I you know, my husband and I we s talked a bit about it when we were very much in the thick of it before we reached out to you and it was like nights were just becoming so anxiety provoking. And you
Fallon (08:59)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (08:59)
st it's not like, well you put the baby down and then you can go to sleep and and just see what happens because
still got other things to do and then it's 9 30, 10 o'clock, and you're gonna go, am I gonna get am I gonna get a couple of hours before I then have to get up? So my daughter
Fallon (09:15)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (09:16)
from around 14 months, she would be awake for two to three hours every night in the middle of the night.
Fallon (09:25)
that is hard.
Dr Halaina Winter (09:27)
and it would be minimum two. So when she cries, you're like, okay, I'm getting up and here we go. happily
She was very happy. She she wasn't upset
Fallon (09:37)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Halaina Winter (09:39)
unless we left the room. so people
might
Fallon (09:41)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (09:41)
be listening thinking, then just go to back to bed. And I'm like, no, no, no. We had to be there.
Fallon (09:46)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (09:47)
She like wanted to have the conversation with us and and, you know, kind of jump around in a cot and have cuddles and then back to cot and then back to cuddles. And it was
Fallon (09:58)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (09:58)
just, it was just hectic. And then you go back to bed for another hour or two. So you ended up with.
five or six hours total, but with that two or three hour like awake period in in the middle. So sort of three hours awake, two hours. And you know, we know from the research
Fallon (10:17)
you poor thing.
Dr Halaina Winter (10:19)
that sleep broken up really reduces positive mood. And it's so it's very different to just having less sleep. Broken sleep is so much worse.
Fallon (10:29)
Yes. Yes, yeah. The number of times
you work. So even if you do, I've said this to parents a lot of times, even if you manage to get your seven hours or so overnight, if it's broken up into all these
Dr Halaina Winter (10:41)
Hmm.
Fallon (10:41)
little pieces, it still has a massive impact on how you feel during the day. And I'm imagining
Dr Halaina Winter (10:45)
Yeah.
Fallon (10:48)
you would have been filled with dread, Halaina, When you hear that cry
Dr Halaina Winter (10:51)
Yeah.
Fallon (10:51)
out at night, you'd be like, my god, it's starting again.
It's so tough. Mmm.
Dr Halaina Winter (10:54)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely very
Fallon (10:59)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (10:59)
hard.
Fallon (10:59)
So is that kind of when you came across Sombelle? Because I'd love to hear more about your experiences with Sombelle.
Dr Halaina Winter (11:05)
Well, actually, so I found Sombelle when my daughter was about six or seven months. So before this patch, we were having lots of wake ups and I was unsure about you know how to drop the night feeds and all the things. And naturally, as a parent, when you're spending a lot of time feeding your child or you know, during their naps, you scroll on Instagram. So
Fallon (11:30)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Halaina Winter (11:31)
you were an Instagram ad for me, and
That led me to no, it was it was great and
Fallon (11:35)
that's kinda horrifying.
Dr Halaina Winter (11:39)
the algorithm worked. So I'm very grateful for that.
Fallon (11:41)
Ha ha ha.
Dr Halaina Winter (11:43)
that led me to your podcast. That led me to doing a bit of a deep dive into like all the Q&A's that you do at the back end of every podcast, going like, who's got the the same question
Fallon (11:54)
yep.
Dr Halaina Winter (11:55)
that I've got? which led me to buying your four to twelve month program at about one o'clock in the morning.
Fallon (12:02)
Okay, yep.
Dr Halaina Winter (12:04)
I was sitt I remember sitting on the floor in her room. and she'd just been awake or there was and I was just like, I can't do this anymore. So I bought your program.
Fallon (12:15)
It's always
interesting when I wake up in the morning and look at my phone and I'm like, how many parents at one or two AM just went, That's it, we're doing something about this?
Dr Halaina Winter (12:20)
We're awake. Yeah. That was me. That was me.
so we did we did that program, and that was fantastic. And then we went to sleeping through, and I was so grateful. then comes 14 months and the split nights. So you
Fallon (12:39)
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (12:41)
were already in my mind. I went back to the podcast and thought I'm gonna buy the program again. I saw the option for the coaching call, and I thought, yes, I
I need a coaching call. I want someone to talk to about this.
Fallon (12:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, it helps, doesn't it, when you've got the materials, but then just someone to have
Dr Halaina Winter (12:58)
Mm.
Fallon (12:58)
a good chat through and a lot of parents are like, I just need someone to go, that's okay. Yes, you're on the right track or you know, take these actions where, you know, you're not just sort of second guessing yourself and thinking, Gosh, I hope I'm on the right track. yeah, that's amazing.
Dr Halaina Winter (13:10)
Yeah. Yeah. And and it was
it was such a good, like from my experience, to be able to do all the materi like to read it through all the material, come up with okay, well, based on this, what would I do or what am I planning to do? But then that
Fallon (13:26)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Halaina Winter (13:27)
coaching call to have the feedback and the reassurance and then maybe tweaking it slightly differently to what I was planning to do, but it worked beautifully.
That was
Fallon (13:40)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (13:40)
yeah, really it was very, very helpful.
Fallon (13:43)
that's so good to hear. I'm so glad. So many years of work go into these things. So it's always lovely to
Dr Halaina Winter (13:45)
Yeah. Yeah.
Fallon (13:49)
yeah, hear that sort of feedback. So I guess turning towards, you know, parent mental health in that kind of first year,
Dr Halaina Winter (13:56)
Hm.
Fallon (13:56)
what do you think are the biggest mental health risks for new parents
Dr Halaina Winter (13:59)
Mm.
Fallon (14:00)
in that first year?
Dr Halaina Winter (14:03)
Look, I think the there is relatively good awareness of things like perinatal depression and anxiety, isolation. We do tend to talk about how isolating it can be as a as a new parent.
Fallon (14:19)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Halaina Winter (14:21)
we do talk, I think, and and people to a degree normalize that sleep deprivation. Like everyone knows that it exists. However, I think
Perinatal OCD and intrusive thoughts get overlooked. I think
Fallon (14:37)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (14:38)
that, you know, even as a practitioner, I did not know it was coming in terms of the intrusive thoughts. In the first week, I needed so much support from my husband to recognize that my thoughts, so I couldn't let my child, my daughter, sleep unless I was watching her. Because
Fallon (14:58)
yep.
Dr Halaina Winter (14:59)
I just
Felt I had this intrusive thought that she was, you know, gonna die from SIDS and she was just and I wouldn't know and I wouldn't be able to do anything about it. so
Fallon (15:10)
Yeah, it's hard.
Dr Halaina Winter (15:11)
and I've spoken to so many mums who have been absolutely knocked sideways by those intrusive thoughts. Another mum friend of mine, she said she couldn't walk down the hallway w holding her baby because she had this thought that she was gonna knock its head on the wall or on the door frame. And I think
Fallon (15:28)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (15:31)
I think there is so much that we don't talk about that intrusive thoughts, and I'm not talking about the OCD, like obsessive, compulsive part
of it, but just intrusive thoughts in postpartum is so normal. We need to
Fallon (15:45)
Yes,
Dr Halaina Winter (15:46)
normalize that more. because having the thought and being horrified by it, it's actually a sign that you care, not a sign of what you'll do.
Fallon (15:56)
Yes. Yes. God. Those are such
good words, Halaina. They really are. I remember in the
Dr Halaina Winter (16:01)
Mm, don't think it's
Fallon (16:02)
first couple of weeks with my firstborn, I was just like, you have to turn off the news. Don't show me the news. I cannot hear
Dr Halaina Winter (16:08)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon (16:09)
about some tragic event right now because
Dr Halaina Winter (16:11)
Mm.
Fallon (16:12)
there was this one thing, which I won't mention for parents who are listening, in case they're in the same space. This one thing was in the news and I just kept imagining that happening to my baby over and over. And how would I prevent it? And
Those are such wise words that it is yeah, it's a sign you care. Y your brain's going, Okay, protective mode. Yeah. And yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (16:27)
Yeah. Yeah. I actually had to do some reading to just understand
myself. And this is where the PhD and and the the training comes in because I can actually find the research and I was like, why did no one tell me this? It's all here. Everyone knows that
Fallon (16:44)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (16:45)
the majority of new mums get these intrusive thoughts and it's completely normal. Why did I not know this?
Fallon (16:51)
Yeah, maybe we're all just a bit too scared to talk about it, you know, like just
Dr Halaina Winter (16:54)
Mm.
Fallon (16:56)
but we've got to yeah, open up more about it. I think maternal rage
Dr Halaina Winter (16:58)
Mm.
Fallon (16:59)
is another one as well. Like, especially when there are long split nights, like that would be when I would just be like, my god, go back to sleep. Like you're
Dr Halaina Winter (17:07)
Yeah. Yeah.
Fallon (17:08)
looking at the clock and you're thinking I'm never, you know, I'm not gonna get enough sleep. The next day's gonna be horrible and you're spiraling and Yeah, it's
Dr Halaina Winter (17:11)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I
I think when it comes to sleep as well, I mean, speaking of, you know, the news at at the moment, we don't talk enough about postpartum psychosis. We don't talk about
Fallon (17:29)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (17:30)
enough about how yes, there is a there is a degree of sleep deprivation that is very, you know, it's part and parcel of having a newborn.
However, there is also a boundary. When it crosses the boundary and you are in such a state, an intense state, acute state of sleep deprivation, when you're starting to not even feel tired anymore, like this is when we really need to recognize or have someone else recognize for us that you need help.
Fallon (18:04)
Yes, absolutely. Look, what are the what are the genuinely protective things? Like to a parent who's listening who's feeling really exhausted or maybe feeling a bit
Dr Halaina Winter (18:13)
Mm.
Fallon (18:14)
frail with their mental health, are there like any little tips that you've got for things that can just help, maybe in the here and
now? hmm.
Dr Halaina Winter (18:21)
Hmm.
Something actually that my my husband and I implemented was we would do a shift plan. So
Fallon (18:29)
Love that.
Dr Halaina Winter (18:30)
we'd literally say to each other, Okay, you're off duty. Meaning that if she wakes,
Fallon (18:36)
Yep.
Dr Halaina Winter (18:37)
I'll get up, or you know, if I was off duty, he would get up. And I think those words, even though they're very, very simple, they sort of al they allow you that.
space to relax and know that someone else has got this. I can let go for a couple of hours and get some sleep. That
Fallon (18:59)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (18:59)
was incredibly helpful. So okay, you're off duty. Yeah, yeah.
Fallon (19:03)
I love that. It's like you're you're tapping out, I'm handing it over. Yeah, that's powerful.
Instead of just being in that mishmash of you do that, I'll do this, we'll yeah, juggle it all. Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (19:10)
Who's gonna exactly. And we also
in the split during the split nights, we also had a plan that because we knew it would be minimum two hours, we were
Fallon (19:22)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (19:23)
we were unless that, you know, you know, he had something particularly big coming up at work, it would be, okay, I'll do the first hour and then we tag team. So the other person is expecting that I'm gonna wake you up and we're gonna hand over.
so that we can kind of keep it as even as possible. Cause it was really hard. You have to be a team.
Fallon (19:46)
Yeah, yeah, you really do. If you've got a partner, you've got to approach it like
Dr Halaina Winter (19:50)
Mm.
Fallon (19:50)
teamwork. And I do get a lot of mums saying, you know, but my husband's like they've got work and you know, we need their
Dr Halaina Winter (19:56)
Mm.
Fallon (19:57)
income. We can't risk that and I completely get that.
But I gently encourage those parents to remember that they're driving a motor vehicle the next day when they take their baby to swimming or
Dr Halaina Winter (20:07)
Mm. Mm.
Fallon (20:09)
you're still doing a really important job that has risks as well. So yeah,
Dr Halaina Winter (20:13)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon (20:14)
it's good to think about that balance for sure.
Dr Halaina Winter (20:16)
Yeah.
Fallon (20:17)
So for parents, what do you think are the the signs that it's in terms of their mental health, what are the things when they should be sort of going, okay, yep, it's time for me to reach out and get some support?
Dr Halaina Winter (20:27)
Mm. I think that, you know, if we think very as if I think as a pr practitioner, I would say be saying that if if the symptoms to a bit pathologizing, but if the symptoms are kind of lasting more than two weeks, like if you're having really no good days and no good moments in the day for two weeks, if you're losing enjoyment, if you're feeling disconnected from your child and not wanting
To be around your child, if you're finding that you're having racing thoughts and that you can't slow down even when you know your child is napping, if you've got that constant state of dread or panic, you're getting angry fast and often, or those intrusive thoughts are really becoming incredibly distressing to the point that they're taking up a lot of your day. You do, you're starting to do things because your brain is telling you.
Well, if you do that, the intrusive thought will go away, which is essentially that's the O C D compulsion in in very plain words, then it's absolutely time to reach out.
Fallon (21:39)
Yeah. And where do you suggest parents reach out to? So probably the next thing you're gonna say, is it starting with the GP
Dr Halaina Winter (21:43)
Yeah
Fallon (21:45)
or we've got some great helplines as well. Where do you think parents go first?
Dr Halaina Winter (21:47)
Th there are, yeah,
the absolutely. There are some really good helplines. You know, PANDA, even Lifeline, cope.org, you know, there are some really great places to help out. the Gidget Foundation, the only issue with some of these is that they can either be very brief interventions and someone needs something a little bit more, or if it's a longer, more intensive intervention, the wait lists.
Fallon (22:17)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (22:17)
The the wait lists. It's it's really really hard. So I would say absolutely connect with your GP. see if you can get a mental health care plan, or you can, you can get a mental health care plan. Everyone who is a resident or a citizen gets allocated 10 psychology sessions every calendar year. And I think not enough people are aware of that. so
Fallon (22:44)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (22:44)
that gives you a Medicare rebate on seeing.
you know, someone like me, to go and have sessions. And I think if if when I think about how I work, and I'm sure so many psychologists that which is a predominantly female dominated field, sector, that, you know, we're so fine if the baby is in the session with us, and we're so fine
Fallon (23:10)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (23:10)
if we need to
Try and be as flexible as possible that maybe we've only got half an hour, but that half hour check-in is so much better than not having anything at all. yeah. Yes. absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Fallon (23:20)
Yes. And most psychologists are doing telehealth these days too, aren't they? So yeah, makes it so easy. Yeah.
amazing. I often say to parents, if you're in a real, you feel like it's a very urgent moment of despair where you're just really,
Dr Halaina Winter (23:34)
Mm.
Fallon (23:35)
really struggling, just pick up the phone and call any one of those numbers. And I'll put the numbers in the show notes. You
Dr Halaina Winter (23:41)
Mm.
Fallon (23:41)
don't need to know what you're gonna say. You can just
Dr Halaina Winter (23:43)
Yeah.
Fallon (23:43)
ring up and go, I'm having the
worst day. And
Dr Halaina Winter (23:46)
Yeah.
Fallon (23:46)
they will help you unpack that from there and and connect you in with other people if if need be. Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (23:49)
Yeah. Absolutely. And
you know, if we're going to take the next step as well, if you are noticing thoughts of harm to yourself of or others, if you're feeling really confused, if you're, you know, starting to have some very out of character beliefs, you can absolutely go to the emergency department. That's what
Fallon (24:11)
Mm.
Dr Halaina Winter (24:11)
it's there for. Emergencies are not the emergency department at the hospital is not just for physical or
you know, a ailments. They are there
Fallon (24:20)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (24:20)
to support you with your mental health as well. yeah.
Fallon (24:24)
That's such
a good point. I think for so many people we think we've got to break our leg or something to go
Dr Halaina Winter (24:28)
Yeah.
Fallon (24:29)
there. But yeah, you can just rock up there and be like, I'm not myself. I need some help. And they'll take it from there. Such good
Dr Halaina Winter (24:33)
Yeah. Mm.
Fallon (24:36)
advice.
Amazing, Halaina. Well, where can people find you if they're keen to work with you or follow
Dr Halaina Winter (24:41)
Mm-hmm.
Fallon (24:41)
along with your work?
What's the the best avenue?
Dr Halaina Winter (24:44)
Yep, so you'll find me at Sydney Child and Family Practice, which is scfp.com.au. I am on Instagram under Dr. Halaina Winter. However, I will be up front, not hugely
Fallon (24:58)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Halaina Winter (24:58)
present there. and I think for your listeners, they will resonate with this. I'm a mum. I'm then a psychologist and a practice owner, and my family and my clients get my attention. My posts, not so much.
Fallon (25:12)
Yeah.
Dr Halaina Winter (25:14)
but I think in terms of my approach, like I am very much there at the end of a phone call. I do a lot of when people just have questions and would like some I suppose guidance, guidance on like is psychology right for me? Should I go, should I speak to a speechy? Should I go and see my GP first? Like I have those sorts of conversations all the time. so I am at the end of a phone and then obviously.
in my consulting rooms and online for sessions.
Fallon (25:46)
Amazing.
Thank you so much for having such a great conversation. It's been so great to hear more about your work and your own experiences as well. And I'm sure that everybody listening in has really enjoyed this chat just as much as me. So thanks so much, Halaina.
Dr Halaina Winter (26:02)
Thank you so much. And you know, if there's one thing I'd want a parent listening at 3 AM to hear, it's that it makes sense that this is hard and you don't have to do it alone.
Fallon (26:20)
All right guys, let's dive into this week's parent questions. I think we've we've got 10 questions to get through. And I looked at these earlier and I was like, wow, some of these are meaty. So let's see how we go. First up we have an email from Claudia.
Claudia says, my four-month-old has a 7.30 p.m. bedtime and a 6.30 a.m. wake up, as recommended in a recent coaching call. She says, but he keeps waking up around 6 or 6.15 a.m. Pushing bedtime later is really hard because he's really cranky by 7.30 p.m. So to protect his daily rhythm, she leaves him in his bassinet if he's happy and just kind of wakes until 6.30 a.m. to turn on the lights and get him up.
But she's wondering, is this the right approach? And if he gets upset, is it okay to pick him up earlier? Well, I'll start with yes, 100%. If he's upset, you know, and it's not quite 6:30, I wouldn't be worried. I would get him up. I tend to say, if you know, you know they're not going to go back to sleep, they're wide awake, and it's not quite wake-up time, just keep it really dark and really boring. if you're able to, you could delay the feed until wake-up time because feeding is part of the circadian rhythm. So
If they feed at 6 30, it's a very strong signal to their body that the day starts at 6 30. But if this is a four-month-old, they often don't have a lot of patience, that might not work. but just keep it as boring as you can at 6 30, turn the lights on. What I'd be looking to see is does your baby start to sleep into 6 30 once they kind of get the the idea that 6 30 is the wake-up time? But they might
They might not, because at four months of age their sleep needs are dropping off pretty quickly. So if you've been trying for a couple of weeks, Claudia, and he's just not making it, it might be that we just have to call it a 6.15 a.m. wake up because he shed a little bit of his sleep. so have a look on at what kind of that average sleep duration he's sitting on. Maybe it's dropped down a little bit. You might be able to tweak a few things about the day and just see how he goes.
And if he's getting really cranky by 7.30 p.m., that's pretty normal. You might find across a week or so you can gradually shuffle everything a little bit later if you're really wanting to to get him through to 6 30 a.m. But it sounds like you're really well on track, Claudia. So well done. Next up we have Chloe who says, I found your podcast and think you are incredible and really trust the information is going to help improve my baby's sleep. Thank you so much for your feedback, Chloe. It's really lovely.
Chloe says, I've just joined Sombelle after months of sleep struggles, and I'm very sleep deprived with a return to work coming up. there's nothing like the return to work to put the pressure on, is there? Chloe says, my seven and a half-month-old has 38
to 44 minute sleep cycles, is on three naps, and averages about 11 hours total sleep per 24 hours. For months he has had one to two hour-long overnight wakes.
she says she feeds him back to sleep and he she's thinking that they're sort of become a bit of a a habit these wake-ups. He starts in the cot, but we sometimes end up co-sleeping. So Chloe asks, When should I drop from three naps to two? Each time I've tried a two-nap day, the night falls into 45-minute wakes. So she's then gone back to three naps.
she wants to know, do I need to stick with two naps for several days in a row or is it just not ready?
And how do I manage it when we're out since he falls asleep in the car on almost every trip? Chloe, you're right in that really tricky phase where they kind of need to drop a nap, but it's it's hard. It's a hard adjustment. And there will inevitably be a few odd, sneaky little naps on the go because they are just so hard to avoid. look, I would say with really long overnight wakes, they are split nights. So then it might be that you've got to rejig that daily rhythm.
a little bit. Look at you know, if they're averaging 11 hours sleep per 24 hours and they're doing three, what is it, three naps of about 40 minutes would be two hours of day sleep. You've probably only got a budget of nine hours left for overnight sleep, which might mean having to do something like a 9 p.m. bedtime, a 6 a.m. wake up potentially. So it's tricky when they've got a low sleep need. Have a bit of a think about whether that daily rhythm is really working for you at the moment.
I would say with the move to two naps, I would absolutely do it because you've got a low sleep needs baby and they usually move to two naps around six months of age. So by seven and a half months, they are definitely going to be ready for it. But just because they're ready for it doesn't mean it's easy. Often, even though they're so, so, so ready to make this switch, it's still a horrible few days because their body is expecting to have that third nap.
and I would suspect the third nap's probably making the night tricky. So they wake up not fully rested and they go looking for the third nap again, and then what do you know it results in another tricky night? We have to hold that cycle. So I would make the move to two naps, expect everything to be a little bit feral for maybe four days or so, but then you should start to see that the nights begin to improve, and then his daytime mood will start to improve and
Probably two weeks in, you'll think, yeah, there's no way I could do three naps now. Like, you know, he's really adapted to that two nap rhythm. During that time, you might have to just try and avoid being out and about too much at those sensitive times when, you know, often they're just really likely to fall asleep in the car at five PM or something like that. So you may need to just try and manage that as best you can. but I would say, Chloe, go all in on the two naps. Yeah, work on that daily rhythm, reduce those
split nights and you'll be off and away. So good luck, Chloe. Do reach out if you want to have a chat to work out the best daily rhythm. Okay, Eliza emailed. She says, we've been doing a version of the accelerated approach and it worked really well. Our Nellie six month old who has about a 14 and a half hour sleep need was sleeping well in her cot with one overnight feed and an easy resettle.
Over the last week her sleep has become unsettled. One night she was inconsolable for about six hours. my gosh. possibly from a virus or tummy discomfort. Last night she woke hourly, then was awake for two hours after her feed. She has also started crying hard when transferred into her cot, which she used to be happy in. Eliza says we haven't changed anything.
Is this a common developmental blip around six months and should we stay consistent with our current approach? you poor thing, Eliza. I think probably a couple of things have happened. I reckon your baby's sleep need very likely has started to decline right at a time when she's been really unwell. And often when they're really unwell, they cry a lot more overnight, which is not news to anybody who's listening to this podcast. but what they notice is that when I cried a lot.
Actually, there were a whole bunch of different things that happened overnight. I'm guessing there were probably some lovely cuddles and maybe some extra feeds, you know, all these extra things that were happening. And babies are pretty switched on. They'll realize that when I was really noisy that night and made a big fuss, there were actually a whole bunch of really cool things that happened and I would like more of those, please. And if sleep needs have also dropped off, which they do around this sort of four to six month mark, they're often declining.
Then you've got a baby who's got low sleep pressure overnight and who is really motivated to call out and get some more of those lovely cuddles or feeds, things like that. So often we do hear that yeah, that things were going beautifully, they got sick, and now they're just sort of really hard to get back on track. So have a look at that daily rhythm, have a look at the sleep diary. What's the average sitting on now? Build out a daily rhythm that fits that. Maybe give it, you know, a few days or so to really start to kick in and build that sleep pressure overnight.
And then I'd go straight into the same approach you used previously. So you're giving lots of support, but you're really pretty firm on just falling asleep in the cot. And hopefully we will see that all come back together again. Just one of these annoying things that sometimes illness and you know it's like the stars align and we have a terrible night and we just see it kind of hang around a little bit. but good luck, Eliza. I you've done it before, you can absolutely do it again. That's what I'll say. So yeah, hopefully things are back on track nice and quick.
our next question is from Zara, who says, Our overnight sleep has markedly improved. Thank you. It only took two nights to see big changes, and we're really pleased with this. That is so awesome. I'm thrilled to hear it. And Zara says we use the supported accelerated approach with our seven and a half month-old.
One month in he has gone from multiple wakes, false starts, and co-sleeping to sleeping eleven hours through the night in his cot. my goodness. Hallelujah! However, Zara says naps are still a problem. At bedtime he settles without crying, but for naps he cries for five or ten minutes, even when he shows clear sleepy signs. In the car or pram he falls asleep without crying.
She wonders, is it normal for babies to keep fighting day naps like this? Also, to test whether he can handle more sleep with adding sort of 30-minute increments, do we just move bedtime 30 minutes earlier for a week and see how it goes? Okay, I would park adding more sleep just for a minute. and be thinking about the naps. So they're seven and a half months old.
And I don't I don't have it in front of me what how many naps he's on, but make sure he's on two naps. That would be my first thing. If they're getting really fussy for naps and they're still having three naps, they're seven and a half months old, I would say that third nap needs to be dropped. Maybe they're just getting really frustrated because you're trying to settle them and it's just not quite tight enough. if they're already on two naps, then there's lots of things to consider. I would say, you know, do remember that it is really, really common for
babies to think, I don't want to have a nap. There's all these amazing toys in the living room. My favourite people are out there. sometimes they just aren't so keen on that transition into sleep. five or ten minutes to fall asleep I'm not too worried about. If it was stretching on for twenty minutes, I'd be thinking, you know, that's not not great, not fun for anyone.
so try not to worry too much. Often it is just that they're a bit annoyed that you're stopping the playtime and making them do something pretty boring when they would rather do other things. so yeah, maybe think about that daily rhythm a little bit. if you're satisfied that, yep, they're on two naps, you know, that's all all fine and good. And you're thinking, okay, we want to try adding an extra 30 minutes to their daily rhythm, I would add it where you're feeling the pain most. So if you're finding it really hard to get them through to bedtime, they're
real mess at the end of the day. Yep, move bedtime earlier. If you have been waking them up in the morning and they're really cranky about it and the start to the day is not very happy, add 30 minutes there instead. Whatever you decide, add the 30 minutes at the same time each day for a full week and see where the cards land. Give it a week, see and I I was just saying this to a parent this morning actually, if you've added that 30 minutes in for a week
What you want to do at the end of that week is really have a look at what their sleep average is. If they've added 30 minutes more sleep in, brilliant. They needed it and you've done the right thing, they're getting 30 minutes more opportunity to sleep and they're actually taking it, which is great. You can even try adding more at that point. But if their sleep average has stayed the same and they're just wakeful for 30 minutes more, you know, maybe they're waking more overnight or they're taking ages to fall asleep.
then they're not really taking that extra sleep opportunity. It's just making their nights get really wobbly or the settling get hard. So in that instance I would just revert back to the prior schedule and within a few days things should get back on track. So yeah, I hope that helps, Zara. Good luck. Eleanor emailed in and said, Thank you so much. I really appreciate your guidance. you're very welcome.
She says, after listening to your four-month regression episode, we've decided to start moving our 10-week-old from our bed to her cot using the slow tapered approach. We'll model it on the the Jessica and Lindsay case study. if you'd not in Sombelle, we have these case studies where we talk through different families' experiences. but Eleanor says their case study was very similar to her situation.
Eleanor says she currently wakes three to six times a night and I feed her back to sleep each time. Should I keep doing that during the cot transition? About half of her naps are in the pram and half in a swinging carrier or baby nest, which is a really strong sleep association. Should we keep naps and night wakes the same and focus only on the bedtime COT transition or work on everything at the same time but but gradually? Yeah, I think this is.
Yeah, it's a a brilliant question, Eleanor. So I would look, there are families who are just like, I need progress right now. I'm at the end of my tether. I'm not coping. I just want to make all the changes, work really quickly, and get this cot settling done. If that's the case, and if you feel like that, Eleanor, you can make all these changes at once. You could say, okay, we're just settling in the cot from now on. I'm gonna stop feeding back to sleep. I'm gonna work on everything all at once. And that is completely valid.
If you want to take a slower approach, I often say to families, maybe you're just working on settling in the cot or bassinet at bedtime. That first settle of the night can be a pretty powerful one because it does sort of set up an expectation for the rest of the night as well. So you've you've got that option as well. Naps in the the Pram are brilliant. They're great preparation for settling in the cot as well. I personally would stop using the swinging carrier or baby nest for naps.
One of the reasons is that they can be quite dangerous for sleep. Often they allow a baby's chin to come down way too low on their chest. so generally we're saying these days just don't risk it. Don't sleep them in those things. you're much better off going for a pram nap or yeah, working on a bassinet nap, holding them in your arms, something like that. so have I covered off everything in your question? Yeah, I think we have really. So I think just have a think about where you're at, Eleanor.
If you want to go all in on every settle, that's fine. But if you want to focus on one at a time, I would start with the bedtime, settle in the cot, and lots of pram naps, which helps with the cot settling later on too. And then you can just add more settles in when you're ready. Okay, we are on fire. We are sailing through all these questions. And next one, question number six is from Emma.
Emma says, I want to thank you for creating this podcast. I've referred back to so many different episodes over the last seven months, and it's honestly helped me out of some pretty down days. That means so much. I'm so thrilled to hear that, Emma. I know if I'm having a really rough day, I find so much comfort from listening to other people having a good old chat. Like I love listening to podcasts or audiobooks, like
I fully understand how it can make a difference to those really, really down days and I feel really lucky that I've been part of that. helping you out of those down days. That's really, really lovely. And I hope you've got a really good village around you and some friends to lean on as well. so Emma says, My nearly seven month old who has a thirteen hour sleep need, sleeps really well overnight from eight pm to six thirty AM with just the odd dummy replacement at around five AM.
Naps are the struggle. Well, this is sounding like an earlier question. it says we're on day four of moving from three naps to two naps, aiming for a 60-minute first nap and a 90-minute second nap. Now he wakes crying hysterically after 30 minutes and needs his dummy replaced. Twice he's woken at 45 minutes and couldn't get back to sleep at all. Since I don't offer more sleep overnight, why won't he take the day's sleep when it's offered?
How can I help him connect daytime sleep cycles again? And could the change in his routine be the cause? When he undershoots his naps, he's tired and upset all the next day. Emma, you're in the trenches of that nap transition as well. Like so many other parents, it's really, really hard. and another conversation I had this morning with a family in clinic. What you wanna do when you move to two naps, I would expect everything to go terrible.
for four days to a week, you might feel like you've just massively screwed up sleep. And that is so normal. And it doesn't mean that your child was not ready for that nap transition. It's just basically their circadian rhythm grappling, trying to like figure out what on earth is going on here. So so many parents will say to me, we tried to drop the nap and the nights went terrible. So we added the nap back in.
there gets to a point though where you can't keep doing that. They just have to have to drop that nap. So be really brave if you are in that situation. So this is what I say to families. If you've got a nap allowance, it sounds like you're aiming for two and a half hours total day sleep, Emma. If that's your allowance, you you offer the opportunity for that much sleep. If your baby doesn't take it, still try and push through to bedtime, keep the same wake-up time.
Over the course of a few days, you should see that that drive to achieve their sleep need is so strong that they will start to go back to having longer naps. it's not always the case though. And I don't know how long Emma's worked on this. If it's less than a week, keep going. Try and aim for a week on that new daily rhythm and see if they manage it. If after that week they still aren't extending their naps, you know, and you're keeping everything else the same, it might be a sign that.
On two naps, the day just has to look different to what it used to. So after that week, you might go, you know what, they're only averaging two hours total day sleep. Therefore, I'm gonna take the extra 30 minutes they're not taking in the day and I'm gonna push it into the night. So maybe you aim for an earlier bedtime. Then try that for a week and just see how the cards land, see how that settles in. And you might from there go, I feel like we've still got to keep tweaking. And that's fine. You're working within the same total sleep budget.
But you're just making careful little changes to see what actually suits your baby best. And what's important is you're not going to change it every day or every three days. Give it a week each time. And then you're really going to understand what works and what doesn't. So yeah, look, I think he will connect those daytime sleep cycles again to answer your question. I think this is just, yeah, it's the cards all being thrown up in the air on a new daily rhythm. And it's just going to take a bit of time to see where those cards land.
good luck, Emma. Once you're on two naps, it's great. You get like a good six months where things stay pretty steady and you can fall into a pretty predictable pattern. And I think parents are really owed that after those chaotic first six or seven months or so. Okay, let's move on to Rachel's question. And Rachel says, Thank you for the Sombelle program. It has been so helpful as a first-time mum to find a resource that is clear about infant sleep.
Rachel says, My 14-week old, who has about a 15-hour sleep need, has contact mapped from day one but sleeps overnight in his bassinet. He sleeps from about 8 p.m. to 3 or 4 a.m., has a feed and resettles, then is restless until he wakes at 5 30 to 6 a.m. He takes four naps a day, two of them are an hour and a quarter, and then there's two one hour naps.
and is settled with bouncing, shushing, padding, white noise, and a dummy. At bedtime we hold him for about 20 minutes before transferring him, or else he wakes up. But Rachel would like to move his naps to the bassinet and work on more independent settling using one of our slower approaches. So she wonders, should we delay the transfer for naps like we do at bedtime or transfer as soon as he's sleeping?
Earlier bassinet naps always ended within 10 minutes of transfer. Last week though he fell asleep in the bassinet with hand rocking and slept for 40 minutes, but then he couldn't be resettled afterwards. and that also liked to get that close-up time at the the wake up time a bit closer to 7 a.m. So if he keeps waking early, at what point should they stop resettling and just start the day? So this is really interesting, Rachel.
You've got a 14-week old and they have recently made a massive shift in how their sleep works. At around about 12 weeks, or up until about 12 weeks, babies fall into a lighter stage. They have two stages of sleep, very simple sleep with two stages. And the first part of the sleep cycle is light sleep before they then get into deep sleep. And that's why you've had to hold him for 20 minutes before you could transfer him, because you were waiting until he was in the deep sleep where he wouldn't just spring awake easily.
What's interesting is that's now flipped on its head. At about 12 weeks, they start their sleep cycle by going into the deep part of sleep and then they slowly come up into light sleep. So by now you should find that if you you know, he falls asleep, he should be much more easy to transfer into his bassinet without having to wait such a long time. So when you do go to work on the gradual approaches, yeah, I would transfer him as soon as he's asleep. He is 14 weeks, so he might not quite be at that.
12 week kind of change in the sleep cycles because every baby's different. but I would start trying to do that, definitely. now reading the rest of your questions. I think yeah, so the next part of your question was really around moving that wake up time closer to 7 a.m. You are going to find that the total day sleep he has is probably about to fall off a cliff. He's 14 weeks old, he's having 15 hours at the moment.
Probably over the next two months, you're gonna see that that sleep need starts to decline. What we wanna do is take that sleep out of the day and not the night. So just be aware that you might have to start trimming down those naps a little bit. but I would say look at any point you can start to shuffle everything along a little bit later. A lot like when we adjust to daylight savings. you know, if he's waking around 5 30, 6 a.m., you could just shift the whole
daily rhythm by 15 minutes every couple of days until you've moved that wake up time to a later time. yeah, so I hope that helps, Rachel. you're in the thick of it, but you are going to find over the next few months that things do start to fall into a bit more of a pattern. And I love that you're working on a bit of cot settling at the moment. one other little tip I thought when I first saw your email, I would start to phase out the bouncing.
So you mentioned bouncing, shushing, padding, white noise and a dummy. You're doing all the things. Like that's a lot of things. if you can get him used to being in your arms with shushing, padding, white noise and a dummy, but not the bouncing movement, that is gonna feel so much more similar to what it's like falling asleep in a bassinet or a cot. the ones who really depend on a lot of bouncing really struggle with going into the cot where it's just completely still.
So get him used to being still while he's still in your arms. He might be cranky about it, but he'll be okay. And he knows that he's safe because you're you literally have your arms around him. And that might really help with that move to the bassinet or the cot. So good luck, Rachel. I hope that goes really well. Kirsty emailed in saying she's found Sombelle really helpful, which is awesome.
She says, with the advanced accelerated approach, my 18-month-old has mostly stopped early rising and wanting his early morning breastfeed. He now wakes after 6 a.m. and sleeps about 10 hours overnight. His sleep need is about 12 hours, so he has around an hour and a half to two hours of day sleep. At home he goes down fine but wakes after 25 to 30 minutes. Excuse me. And we can rarely resettle him.
He wakes very grumpy and is clearly still tired. At childcare, he consistently sleeps for two to three hours, even since moving to a floor bed in a room with other children. Why would he nap so well at childcare but not at home? And what can we do about it? I love, love, love, love, love this. Okay, you've got a toddler who, when he's home, he's like, hell no, I'm not missing out on time with my parents. This nap is boring.
I want to get up and spend time with mum and I'm not gonna be doing this whole boring nap thing. So I think what's probably happening is at childcare, he's like, yeah, I'm gonna catch up on sleep because I had a terrible nap yesterday at home and he probably overdoes the day's sleep. If he's having three hours, he's definitely overdoing the day's sleep at daycare. And then the next day he's thinking, well, you know, sleep pressure's a bit low, I'm not that tired, I'll just have a little kip and then I'll get more playtime at home.
this happens all the time in toddlers. So I would start by telling daycare that he absolutely must be woken up at the two-hour mark and be really clear, just explain that it's tough when he overdoes the day's sleep there because often the days you have him, he's just, you know, not wanting a longer nap. to have a chat with them about it and see how things go. I think if you were able to standardize what happens at daycare, if he's always having two hours day sleep there.
We're probably gonna see his circadian rhythm favour having a two-hour nap at home as well. But make sure at home it is really boring. I'd be thinking a very, very blacked out room, really quiet or white noise, so that it is just as similar to night time as possible. and with that really low stimulation, often they're just like, yeah, I'm pretty tired. I'm gonna take my full two hours.
So yeah, keep practicing. Worst case scenario, you might have to just continue the nap in the pram or something like that, just so that he can make it through to bedtime without being too much of a grouch. But I suspect, Kirsty, it'll it'll start to come together over the next few weeks. All right, next question is from Michelle. Michelle is using the quick fade approach with her 11-month-old. She says, after I increased sleep pressure, she has far fewer overnight wakes.
She still has one to two wakes later in the night that take 30 to 45 minutes to settle with padding. She lies in the cot but just doesn't go to sleep. When I reduced her to 11 and a half hours total sleep opportunity, she was exhausted, so I can't increase sleep pressure any further. I'd like to keep going with the quick fade, but these long resettles just aren't sustainable. Any suggestions or do some babies just not progress and need to move to the support?
Accelerated approach. I love how you're thinking about this, Michelle. With a there's so many things I think about this actually. My mind's going to all sorts of places. Look, 30 to 45 minute wake-ups where you are doing the thing that they normally have to get back to sleep. So you're giving them all that support and they're just not able to get back to sleep kind of screams low sleep pressure to me. But I hear what you're saying. You've tried to reduce it further and it's been a disaster.
I would want to know, did you do a whole week on an eleven and a half hour daily rhythm to really know like I was sort of saying earlier, you're gonna have a few days that are just a bit of a disaster when you make a change to the circadian rhythm. So if your child is in a cycle of like a, you know, really bad night and then a bit too much day sleep and you're trying to dial back day sleep, there's gonna be that period of time where the nights are still tricky and you know, then they're wanting to chase day sleep but they're not able to have it, you know, crankiness can be
Pretty wild. so yeah, I just want to know, did you try for a full week on that daily rhythm? Because it can take a week for them to really settle into it. so yeah, there's that element. Should you change to the supported accelerated approach? Look, I would probably want to figure out the daily rhythm first because I feel like if you're being hands-on right now and it's taking 30 or 45 minutes for her to fall back asleep.
Why would using more interval-based approach where you know you're coming and going really frequently, but you're kind of giving her more space to self-settle? I don't know that that's necessarily going to mean that she's suddenly going to fall asleep and it's going to come together. I think you might just get 30 to 45 minutes of pure outrage from your child. So I would just have a think about that daily rhythm. Is it that we need to make some changes for a full week and sort of see how that goes? And then yeah, moving to the supported accelerated approach might just get her finally get her over the line.
and bring it all together. She's got the self-settling skills, has the sleep pressure. And maybe at that point her nights are golden. She wakes up, you know, just absolutely on fire and ready for the day. And she powers through fine on her new daily rhythm. that's what I'd be, yeah, really keen to see. yeah, so I hope that helps, Michelle. and yeah, good job. It sounds like you've already come a long way. you just got a little bit of tweaking to do to really bring it all together.
Yeah, and very happy to have a look at a sleep diary and have a chat and a coaching call if that's helpful. Okay, lucky last. Question number 10 is from Kiri. She says, We recently joined Sombelle for toddlers after seven months of struggling with our 12 month old daughter's sleep. She has always woken frequently, catnapped, shown no tired signs until a full meltdown, and needs about 10 to 11 hours of sleep per day. So very low sleep needs.
After a run of daycare illnesses, we started co-sleeping, but as shift workers, it just wasn't working for anyone. Kiri says we started the advanced quick fade approach. Within a couple of nights, she was settling easily at bedtime at about 8 or 8.15 p.m., and early wakes were resettled really quickly. But light clockwork, around midnight to 12:30 a.m., she wakes and cries for one to two hours.
And needs settling in our arms. After that, she wakes every 45 to 60 minutes for the rest of the night, and each wake takes 30 or more minutes to resettle. We're exhausted and struggling to stay positive. What might be going on and how can we fix it? Wow, this sounds so tricky, Kiri. And I'm pretty sure I've seen your name in my calendar. So I think we are actually gonna meet up and have a good deep dive into this.
And I'm so looking forward to it. I would be looking really precisely at what that average sleep is per 24 hours. It's obviously going to be pretty low if you think it's between 10 and 11 hours. But if it's 10 hours versus 10 and a half hours versus 11 hours, that's gonna completely change how we structure the day for your 12-month old.
so I would look at that number really carefully because at 12 months they're probably having either one or two naps, definitely be moving to one nap if sleep needs are that low. They usually want one nap by about 11 or 12 months. and I would be thinking, you know, with if you've only got a 10 hour budget, it's really low. Like by the time she has a day nap, you're not left with a lot of opportunity for sleep overnight. So it might be that she's gonna need well, I guess let's think about it this way. If she has a 10 hour sleep need, maybe she has like a one-hour day nap.
if she goes to bed at 8 p.m., she's probably gonna wake up like nine hours later, which would be 5 a.m. if she slept the whole night through. but she's not sleeping the whole night through. She's having these really lots and lots and lots of wake-ups. So I would be, yeah, really thinking about that daily rhythm. I think that's where I'd spend a good week really focusing on it, building sleep pressure, being quite rigid with that daily rhythm to show her circadian rhythm.
exactly what you you know you want it to do you want more consolidated sleep overnight once that sleep pressure is optimized and only then would I then go okay how are we going to move her out of your bed? what approach do we want to use? Because no approach will succeed if sleep pressure's low overnight and a hundred percent it is. If she's awake for one to two hours you know and then waking constantly we've got a sleep pressure problem. So
Yeah, when we work together, we're going to come up with a great plan, Kiri. We're going to optimize that daily rhythm. We are going to figure out a good settling approach, and I'm sure we'll be able to pull it all together. So can't wait to do that work with you. It's going to be fantastic. Well, that brings us to the end of our parent questions. Can I ask you a little wee favor? If you are listening in and you happen to be listening on Apple Podcasts, can you please leave us a five-star review?
And if you've got time to like write an actual, you know, sentence about how much you love us, that would be amazing. We haven't had any real reviews come through an Apple podcast for ages. And it made me go, I really should ask for some because it does really help us to reach more parents, you know, the algorithm and all that jazz. It kind of shows us to potential new listeners. And we just want good, good sleep stuff out there in the world. So you would be giving us a really a good help to do that.
If you're needing extra support, obviously I think Sombelle's pretty great. You can join the programs, they're packed full of info. You can book an appointment with me. We can work together. And do go and have a search of our new parent question index. I update it every episode with all the new questions so that you can go in there, you can type what you're looking for, and maybe we have already answered your exact situation, which would be pretty cool for you. So go and check that out. It is a really cool resource.
Thank you again to Dr. Halaina Winter. I absolutely loved our chat and I'm really excited to maybe we'll have some more guests come on. So if you there is someone you'd love to hear more from on our podcast, please let me know because I would love to arrange that. All right, guys. Sending all the love out to these very, very tired parents who are listening in. Take good care of yourself and I'll see you next time.
