Dr Fallon (00:01.543)
Hi, and welcome back to another episode of Brand New Little People, the podcast that's all about early parenting, including sleeping, crying and settling and all the other ups and downs that come during those first few years of parenting. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with my colleague, Dr. Laura Conway. Hey, Laura.
Dr Laura (00:22.08)
Hi Fallon, how are you going?
Dr Fallon (00:24.139)
Yeah, good. We're doing things a bit differently this time around, aren't we? We're recording our podcast using a new platform, which means we're actually capturing video at the same time. So we should be waving to those that do tune in on the video. Um, so yeah, that's kind of exciting. You'll be able to actually see what we're doing, um, rather than just listening in. Um, you'll have the option.
Dr Laura (00:34.59)
Yeah, we should.
Dr Laura (00:44.499)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (00:46.127)
Um, Laura, I was having such a giggle before because we, we got a follow-up email from Michaela who listens into our show every week. And she sent through some questions and she was having a really good laugh about, um, in our last episode, we were talking about some of the, uh, really outdated advice that we're often told by well-meaning grandparents. Um, but that just does not work anymore. Or is some of it's downright dangerous.
Dr Laura (01:07.465)
Yes.
Dr Laura (01:12.134)
Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Oh my God. Yeah, I think we had we had some really outrageous comments from parents about or grandparents about dummy use, I think last week. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (01:27.975)
Yes, that's right. Well, Michaela was saying, um, she was told that her 11 week old would benefit from having some orange juice.
Dr Laura (01:37.166)
Oh, of course! Yeah, that's what all of the nurses and doctors say these days.
Dr Fallon (01:46.768)
Oh gosh. It's funny, isn't it? It's just such, yeah. Things just changed so much. Um, yeah, the whole different generation.
Dr Laura (01:52.522)
Yeah, yeah, they do. So yeah, listen, people who are having a giggle about that advice about to give you an 11 week old orange juice, if you have been told some howlers by people in your life, do email them through to us because I'm sure that we could probably have this as a segment every week, Fallon, where we just giggle over some crazy advice that our members have been told.
Dr Fallon (02:17.208)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:21.691)
I reckon we could too. I think, yeah, we'd get plenty of funny things being sent in. So do send them in. Um, I know I was told that with my firstborn, if he's crying and he just won't stop, just take off all of his clothes and put him on the floor and just let him get it all out. This is a tiny little newborn baby. It's like, Hmm, I don't think you'll be babysitting.
Dr Laura (02:43.712)
Oh my god.
Dr Laura (02:48.498)
Yeah, because that's really going to achieve some soothing comforting that baby needs and strip them off naked and leave them on the floor. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:53.968)
Ha!
Dr Fallon (02:57.759)
Gosh, we wouldn't do it to an adult. Why would we ever do that with a baby? It's funny. Yeah, and look, the other thing we've been really hearing a lot about from parents, and we had a bit of a talk about this, you know, to ourselves in terms of what we wanted to do this week for the episode. We wanted to talk about, we get a lot of emails from parents and we see them in the clinic as well, excuse me, where they say, we failed sleep school.
Dr Laura (03:00.206)
Ah... yeah...
Dr Laura (03:27.115)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (03:27.471)
And every time I hear that, oh, my heart sinks because it's, it's really negative language, I think that is like, I understand where parents are coming from. They really do feel like they're failed at sleep school. Um, but yeah, I don't think anyone should feel like they're failing. And I thought, let's unpack that in this episode. Maybe we start by talking a bit about what a sleep school actually is, because it is a nickname that parents just tend to use.
Dr Laura (03:34.446)
Mm.
Dr Laura (03:41.836)
Mm.
Dr Laura (03:46.542)
Mm.
Dr Laura (03:55.146)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (03:57.383)
for early parenting centers. And there's so many different formats that a sleep school can take. So we thought, well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about what sleep schools actually do. And let's talk about why they work for some babies and toddlers and why they really don't for others. Hmm.
Dr Laura (04:09.534)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, definitely. We're often the last port of call for families, aren't we, Fallon, where they come to see us in clinic and they say, we've been to the council run sleep school, we've been to a private sleep school, we've had sleep consultants out, and we or our baby has failed, all of them. And yeah, as you have said, it's really negative language.
Dr Fallon (04:34.636)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (04:40.074)
And you can just see the weight on parents' shoulders when they're feeling like they have failed something. And often it comes on the back of, before having children, a lot of the parents that we see, all of the families that we see are highly competent, employed, independent beings. And now they have a baby that is not sleeping in the way that they should be sleeping.
Dr Fallon (04:46.855)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (04:59.452)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (05:07.43)
And so the idea of success and failure is kind of carried through from when the time before children and they may still be using that terminology after they've had this poor experience. So yeah, we are just going to say no, none of our parents have failed sleep school. And if anyone is listening, is feeling that they have failed in some way, please just try to put that.
Dr Fallon (05:20.542)
Mm.
Dr Laura (05:35.69)
language aside, it simply hasn't worked for you and your baby. So if we think about how you said, Fallon, let's break it down. Let's think about what a sleep school is, first of all. So a sleep school, they can be public, they can be private. If it is a private one, they may be residential,
Dr Fallon (05:37.872)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (05:50.079)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (06:04.402)
you and your partner and your baby go and stay in a hospital kind of setting for a few days. And there are nurses there on hand and sometimes psychologists and social workers too, who support you through learning about your baby's sleep and then how to teach them to settle independently in their cot or bassinet. Some local councils across Victoria also run
day stay programs where you might just go to a community health center for a whole day. And again, you're there with normally maternal and child health nurses. And they will again show you some tips and tricks for how you might settle your baby to sleep. And then the other another type of sleep school may be
independent sleep consultants who you employ to come to your home and they might do the settling for you overnight or with you overnight. And all the way through to consultants who would just have a phone call with you and just give you some tips over the phone. Have I covered most of the what is captured by sleep school, do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (07:14.879)
Hmm. Yeah. I think so. I think most parents would be thinking of sleep school as being the type of program where you go usually for about five days. So you're there for quite a while, a few days in a row. And you know, I think quite often parents who end up going and doing that kind of five nights sleep school are the ones who are really quite desperate and mental health might be really impacted. So your GP might've told you.
Dr Laura (07:38.166)
Thank you.
Dr Fallon (07:42.403)
to go along and get that support. And they can be game changing for families because it means you have a set of hands there helping you. Some sleep schools make parents do all the settling and others do most of the settling for the first few days and then parents take over. There are different approaches that are used as well. But they can be a real lifeline for parents who are really struggling with their mental health who need that really intense support.
Dr Laura (07:49.272)
Mm.
Dr Laura (08:07.138)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:07.879)
Yeah. And essentially what those places are trying to do, usually the key kind of goal is to get those babies settling more independently. So often parents are there because they're needing to give their babies or toddlers a lot of help to fall asleep and they're springing awake all night long. They've got very fragmented sleep. And that's the crux of the difficulty. So they will often work quite quickly. So a lot of parents do struggle with this. Sometimes it's, um,
Dr Laura (08:15.95)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Laura (08:21.908)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (08:34.983)
um, you know, making big changes very suddenly. And some parents feel very uncomfortable with that. And it just doesn't sit right with them, which is fine. Um, but I think, you know, those, those sleep schools, they're really trying, they've got a few days, you know, to really turn things around for the family. So, um, they're probably feeling quite a lot of pressure to really, um, get things done pretty quickly. Um,
Dr Laura (08:47.284)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Laura (08:52.888)
No.
Dr Fallon (08:55.879)
But why don't they work for some babies and toddlers? I think that's the really key thing. We see families who say it was fantastic, absolutely life-changing, and it just worked really, really well. And then many other parents will say to us, we did it, it worked maybe for a week when we got home, and then it absolutely fell apart. And when we talk through what they're doing, usually the key thing that needs to be addressed after sleep school.
Dr Laura (09:13.251)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (09:22.823)
is a timing issue, like sleep pressure issue, or there could be a circadian rhythm disruption. So while sleep schools do a lot of work around settling, there's not so much work done with the circadian rhythm. So if you've got a baby or a toddler who has, for example, a very, very low sleep need, often when they're in that sleep school setting, they're working towards a baby's average sleep needs. And the average can be quite a lot higher than the baby that you've got, you know, in front of you.
Dr Laura (09:25.166)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (09:32.205)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Laura (09:35.776)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Laura (09:46.762)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Laura (09:50.955)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:52.311)
So for those families, they might come home from sleep school trying a schedule that would work for the average baby of that age, but for theirs, it just doesn't. And so sleep pressure starts to drop really low. Babies can't maintain this high level of sleep that's being expected of them. And so you know, they're being settled when they're not tired enough. And we all know that settling a baby who's who doesn't have that enough sleep pressure, and who's not tired enough.
Dr Laura (09:59.775)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (10:16.631)
mmm
Dr Fallon (10:18.507)
is, well, it's my least favorite activity. It's not fun. You know, it's, they're going to cry a lot. You're never going to get them to sleep. And then suddenly parents are spending hours trying to settle their babies. They're not self settling. So then they're starting to use more hands on support. And that's typically when parents say, oh, we failed sleep school. But I would say you didn't fail sleep school. You just didn't quite get the right fitting advice for your baby.
Dr Laura (10:21.098)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr Laura (10:29.52)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (10:45.538)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (10:45.639)
So your baby might've learned some skills in self settling, but there's a little bit more tweaking to do to make sure it sticks. And I think that's what we help families with quite a lot is figuring out, well, let's look at your individual baby and what are the missing pieces here? Why isn't that self settling actually lasting? Hmm.
Dr Laura (10:50.536)
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:00.225)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:03.998)
Yeah, because often the sleep schools are using evidence-based approaches. And they generally, particularly on those residential programs, which are, you know, three to five days, they are having to use the quicker approaches because as you say, they want to, the pressure is on for them to create some huge improvements in your baby sleep by the time that you leave.
Dr Fallon (11:10.663)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (11:21.562)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (11:29.704)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (11:34.154)
when they are working hard on helping to show you these evidence-based approaches to settle your baby in the cot. And they're doing this for a number of other families who are also there at the same time. They're just picking the average or above average amount of sleep that a child your baby's age would need. And just in those first few days that you're in
Dr Fallon (11:52.211)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (11:59.071)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (12:02.67)
the sleep school, you may find that your baby is actually going to sleep more easily and more readily with your help and with the nurse's help because you're using one consistent approach, persistently and calmly every settle. And this is on the back of your baby potentially having had really fragmented sleep for a number of months before you go into sleep school. So then whilst they're there at sleep school.
Dr Fallon (12:19.219)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (12:29.651)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (12:32.502)
Yeah, it might look like it's going quite well. They're paying catch up exactly. And then you come home and let's say your baby only has a 12 hour sleep need, but the schedule that you've been given by the staff at the sleep school is aimed at a 15 hour sleep need baby. This baby has caught up on all their fragmented sleep. And now is like, I don't think so.
Dr Fallon (12:35.829)
Mmm, they're playing catch up.
Hmm
Dr Fallon (12:52.268)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (12:57.611)
Mm. I'm ready to party. You can throw that schedule out the window, mom and dad. Yeah.
Dr Laura (13:02.349)
and because-
Yeah, that's right. And because your babies have seen that you persist and you're really consistent, they can go, oh no, you're going to be trying to put me down. And I know you're going to be doing the same thing again, and I'm not quite ready. So then they're going to become very frustrated and unhappy about it. And that's when we start to see that escalation in that crying behaviour. And that's when parents then go, oh my goodness.
Dr Fallon (13:11.909)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (13:16.813)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (13:25.064)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (13:29.529)
Yes.
Dr Laura (13:32.674)
perhaps now I actually have to go backwards and I'm gonna rock them to sleep again because now they've learned to hate the cot. They like the cot at sleep school, but they hate the cot at home. And the thought processes, you know, just go round and round and round. And before you know it, you're back to rocking your baby to sleep, co-sleeping, or you know, bed sharing again. And that might have been something that you had worked on stopping. And you're saying, yeah, I've failed. But what we can do is come in and...
Dr Fallon (13:40.568)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (13:46.172)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (13:56.871)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (14:01.906)
And what Sombel can do is come in and help you work out what your baby's sleep need is, and then in all likelihood, the approach that you were using at sleep school that was working whilst you were there will begin to work again when it is done at the time that your baby is ready to go to sleep.
Dr Fallon (14:07.795)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (14:17.956)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:23.715)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really key is after you've gotten home, then you really dive into catering to their unique sleep needs. And that will help keep things on track. Absolutely. And that's often what I tell parents as well. I think too, you know, no matter what your experience was with sleep school, I mean, some parents say we didn't make it through the first day. It just was not our vibe and we left because it's just not, not what we want to do. Um, and others say, look, we did everything and we found it.
The approaches were fine, but then I just didn't stick when we got home. Whatever your experience was, sleep school is not the end of the road. And I would argue that just in going and trying, you learned some really important things about not only your own expectations and feelings about what approaches you want to use and how you want to parent, but you've learned about your baby and how they cope in that different environment. And maybe you learned that actually they can self-settle, but
Dr Laura (15:05.717)
Mm.
Dr Laura (15:17.39)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (15:21.059)
we just need to do a few things to really make it a bit easier for them or you know iron out the timing difficulties. So it is not failing. I'm sure it feels like failing to many parents but I would say you've learned a hell of a lot in that environment that you can use to guide your parenting going forward. It's probably going to be a really a big a key moment, a learning moment of yeah what you can tolerate and what you're likely to want to do with your baby.
Dr Laura (15:24.398)
Mm.
Dr Laura (15:33.41)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (15:45.067)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (15:47.543)
Um, but don't feel like if sleep school didn't work, that there's no other option. Um, you just need to be really looking at the individual, um, in front of you. Um, and yeah, that's something we do quite a lot and you can certainly do it doing the Sombelle program, um, or seeing us in person, um, either option you can do that. So.
Dr Laura (15:51.563)
Mm.
Dr Laura (15:56.543)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (16:03.875)
Mm.
Yeah. And if you did find that the approach that the nurses or staff at sleep school used with you and your baby just was not the right fit for you, yeah, you've learnt that isn't the right fit for you. With Sombell, you can read through the range of approaches and then say, okay, well, I know I'm not going to like that one because that one is quite similar to what they were doing at sleep school. I don't think that I need...
Dr Fallon (16:26.184)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (16:33.974)
that one because they're not feeding to sleep and I don't need to introduce lots of sleep associations. Maybe there's somewhere in the middle, maybe I'll use one of the in-betweeny approaches and that feels much better.
Dr Fallon (16:40.001)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (16:44.759)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You've got to explore multiple options. I think that's why, um, you know, we get a lot of interest in what we're doing from psychologists and pediatricians and GPs. They're seeing a lot of people who seem to be offered polar opposite approaches. If they've got people in their ears saying, um, feed your baby to sleep until they don't want it anymore. You know, keep doing all of these things and they'll stop doing it when they're ready.
very much that approach of just do whatever your baby wants. And even if you're absolutely in your chair, that you somehow just have to keep going with that. And they would argue, don't change anything. And then on the other extreme, we've got people saying, just put them in their car, walk away, let them cry a bit, they'll be fine. And I think, yeah, pop them on the floor and walk away. Really extreme, extreme polar opposites.
Dr Laura (17:30.35)
Strip them naked, felon!
Dr Fallon (17:38.723)
And of course parents feel utterly confused because neither one of the other parents are like, well, I'm not, I can't keep waking up six times per night to give my baby this tiny little suckle to get back to sleep because it's killing me. Um, and I know they're not hungry and I just want some help to stop doing that. Um, but they also don't want to put their baby down and leave them crying and walk away, of course. Um, and that's, I think why, yeah, so many health professionals come to us because we were the middle ground.
Dr Laura (17:51.134)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (18:06.936)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (18:07.139)
And I've worked really hard to go, let's apply some psychological principles about how babies learn and their behavior. Um, and thinking about what parents want and actually come up with some sensible options that are, um, respectful of babies and of, of what parents want. And I mean, we should have been thinking about it like that from the very beginning. Cause I don't see that they should be room for anything other than just respectful and sensible approaches that give.
Dr Laura (18:19.563)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (18:24.926)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (18:36.379)
You know, really valuable scaffolding to babies who are trying to adjust to doing things a little bit differently. Um, or toddlers who are doing things a bit differently. Um, well on that note, shall we turn towards some parent questions? Cause we've got some really good ones this week.
Dr Laura (18:41.921)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (18:50.634)
Yes. Yeah, we do. Shall I read out the first one? Okay. So we have our first question is from Andrea. Andrea says that she was previously trapped under her five month old baby when she contact napped all day, but now has her settling in her cot with some patting and humming. Oh, well done, Andrea. That's great.
Dr Fallon (18:56.54)
Yeah, go for it.
Dr Fallon (19:06.813)
Hehehe
Dr Fallon (19:14.98)
Yeah, good job.
Dr Laura (19:16.714)
Andrea has made it onto step three of the slow fade approach. So Andrea says, when starting the slow fade approach three weeks ago, she calculated her baby's sleep needs to be 13 hours, with a note that maybe she needs a little bit more because she was a bit grumpy in the afternoon. So now she's three weeks into the slow fade approach and her average sleep need per 24 hours has dropped to 12 hours and her grumpiness is at an all time high.
She currently sleeps nine hours during the night with two breastfeeds and the remaining three hours during the day are only short cat naps. So she can tolerate an hour and a half to two and a half hours awake. And she takes five naps during the day with an occasional extra power nap. Goodness me, that's a lot Andrea for a five month old. Yeah, okay. So Andrea says she would like to help her baby get more sleep during the day to alleviate her grumpiness.
Dr Fallon (20:08.888)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (20:15.234)
but her short naps make it quite hard. She usually wakes up grumpy and trying to settle her in the cot tends to end with crying. Oh gosh, it sounds really hard, Andrea. Andrea knows that phasing out the patting and humming to have her falling asleep independently seems like the logical solution to help her link those sleep cycles during the day. But she says she struggled to phase it out completely as the humming on its own doesn't seem to settle her.
Dr Fallon (20:25.972)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (20:42.058)
She asks if we have any advice on how to brave that last step of the slow fade approach. Yeah, she's got some other questions here. Shall we try, shall I read the whole thing out, Fallon do you think, or should we answer that part first?
Dr Fallon (20:50.084)
Hmmm
Dr Fallon (20:58.335)
Let's start with that first one because I feel like there's a lot of parents who do the more gradual approach and who get to that very last step and say, oh, this is really hard to phase it out now. You're phasing out patting or humming. And I so often say to families that now is the time to revisit the approaches in the program because your baby's used to falling asleep in their cot and now moving to something like the supported accelerated approach.
can be really effective. And that's where you're still going to pat and maybe hum or say a phrase or something, but you're going to do it periodically rather than trying to gradually reduce it. Sometimes for some babies, it just works better too. It might be every 30 seconds or every minute, really brief intervals where you're still staying nearby, but you're only just doing the patting really briefly. So it might be an approach you didn't like the sound of initially.
Dr Laura (21:26.453)
Mm.
Dr Laura (21:33.098)
Mm.
Dr Laura (21:49.038)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (21:49.327)
But go and read about that approach now, because that can be a great way of really quickly reducing that hands on support. Given that she's only waking a couple of times overnight to feed, she's doing some good long stretches of sleep where we know she would be waking up, but she's putting herself back to sleep. So she's actually got the self settling skills, but might need that little bit of encouragement to use them.
Dr Laura (22:10.346)
Yeah. I also think that at five months of age, if she's having five naps during the day, as well as an additional power nap, what we might be seeing or what Andrea might be experiencing is that her baby's sleep pressure is never getting quite high enough at each of her naps for her to be able to go to sleep easily and then link a cycle. And I can.
Dr Fallon (22:21.812)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:30.483)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:35.396)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (22:39.706)
utterly understand why Andrea would be worried about pulling back on the number of naps because she's described that her baby's grumpiness is now at an all time high. It does, yeah, to say, well, actually, I think what we need to do is reduce the number of naps. For as long as Andrea's five month old baby is having five naps a day, sometimes six, or like kind of five and a half if she's having that power nap.
Dr Fallon (22:50.955)
Yes, it seems counterintuitive, doesn't it?
Dr Fallon (22:58.995)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (23:08.535)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (23:11.324)
it's going to be hard to build up that sleep pressure.
Dr Fallon (23:14.775)
Yeah, yeah, every little nap is just taking the peak off that sleep pressure again. And that can mean it's impossible for a baby to actually do two sleep cycles because they just don't have the sleep drive there. So even though, yeah, Andrea, it's going to feel really counterintuitive because you've got a really grumpy baby on your hands already. I would try stretching out first, just trying to do four naps per day and stretching her out longer, even if she's showing lots of tired signs, she will be okay.
Dr Laura (23:19.767)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (23:36.406)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:41.191)
and stretch her out to just four naps, even if they are short naps, and see how you go. Because with that higher buildup of sleep pressure, she's much more likely for one of those naps to link those sleep cycles. And I think you're right, Andrea, it's a combination of, you know, that final step of not having to pattern hum her to sleep is likely to help her to link those sleep cycles in the day. But like Laura said, also building higher sleep pressure.
Dr Laura (24:06.412)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (24:07.471)
Yeah, just because I think five naps is a lot and I'd definitely even be thinking about moving to three naps pretty quickly. Um, after you've made it to four. So it's going to feel really scary at first and really hard to do. You might want to make sure you've got some support around you when you do go to make that change.
Dr Laura (24:14.039)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (24:24.562)
And I'm just looking at her next question, Fallon. So Andrea has said that she's thought about extending some of her short naps through contact napping. She says she breastfeeds after sleeping to avoid her being distracted. And she tends to fall back to sleep on the boob, but will spring awake and cry if placed back in her cot. Would we recommend extending her naps on the boob? It seems like that could be a slippery slope.
And she also wonders if the sixth nap would help to ease the grumpiness. But she also thinks that it may be counterintuitive when she's supposed to be dropping naps, not adding more. Yeah. She does. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (24:53.32)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:02.027)
Yeah, I think Andrea knows doesn't she? She knows what she needs to do. Yeah, look, I look, I'm in two minds about extending a nap with a contact nap. On the one hand, I think no, don't do it. Because as you're working on self settling, your baby's eventually going to have a trite doing it themselves. It might be super confusing if sometimes they're being, you know, fed or held back to sleep. So for some families, that's what I would say just avoid the contact nap.
But then I recognise that for other families, when you're trying to drop to fewer naps, if you, if you just can't tolerate getting through the day because your baby is so cranky, maybe for your own wellbeing, you're better off doing maybe the first nap of the day, you make it a contact nap for that second sleep cycle, just to help you get through the day. So I think there's no clear right or wrong. You could try either of those if you're finding that extending the nap with a contact nap
Dr Laura (25:47.778)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (25:57.975)
is confusing your child and settling, starting to get a whole lot harder. Well, obviously you would stop doing that.
Dr Laura (26:04.042)
Yeah, and maybe think about extending the nap by popping her in the car or the pram for the second half. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (26:10.627)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's really, really good advice.
Dr Laura (26:14.966)
Hmm. So good luck, Andrea. Drop that, definitely drop the power nap and definitely drop the fifth nap. Try and get down to four and then quite quickly get to three naps and just have faith in yourself. You've come so far. She's no longer needing to be on you to fall asleep. She's falling asleep in her cot with the padding. And like Fallon said, she's linking lots of sleep cycles overnight. So you're nearly there.
Dr Fallon (26:29.574)
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (26:39.504)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (26:45.03)
think about switching to that slightly quicker settling approach now that she's really comfortable in her cot. And hopefully you'll be at the other side soon and send us an update.
Dr Fallon (26:45.292)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (26:53.335)
Absolutely. Yeah. You're doing such a fantastic, fantastic job. Um, and it's going to feel a little tricky at first, but just know that there's hundreds of parents who've gone before you who also said, I don't think I can reduce the naps and then they do. And they're like, oh my goodness, that changed my life and everything's easier now, um, so you will get through it and might just take a little bit of a, um, massaging along. Yeah.
Dr Laura (27:11.275)
Yes! Yeah.
Dr Laura (27:18.452)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (27:20.955)
We also had a question sent in from Sanja. Sanja emailed concerned that her baby stands up so often in her cot that there's no approach for cot settling that could possibly be effective. She'd like advice on what to do with her very active baby. And Sanja has also tried a sleep school without lasting success. So I think this episode will be quite relevant to Sanja as well. We get this quite a lot. We were talking the other day, Laura, we might even add a lesson into the baby programs
Dr Laura (27:24.706)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (27:50.639)
um, what to do for those ones who are super active. Sanja's baby started pulling herself up to stand at six months of age. So that's, that's an active baby. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so definitely there's times when, I know Sanja mentioned in her email that she really wanted to do a really, really gradual approach, but she was finding that impossible because her baby will just roll away and stand up and then, you know, what do you do? It's, it's really challenging. Um, but sometimes we.
Dr Laura (27:56.622)
Wow, yeah, so young.
Dr Laura (28:10.435)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (28:20.259)
as parents, we don't get to do the approach that we would like to do, because it just doesn't work for our babies. And this is probably a good example of where a gradual approach just isn't the right fit for this particular baby. And we're doing something like the supported accelerated approach, um, where you're giving lots of reassurance, but just intermittently. And when we say intermittently, we don't mean 20 minutes or something horrendous.
Dr Laura (28:25.869)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (28:31.842)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (28:39.079)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (28:42.863)
every 30 seconds or one minute you're doing the same thing. So it might mean that every 30 seconds to one minute you lay her down quickly, you might have some pats that you give her and a phrase that you say to reassure her, and then you sit back down beside the cot and you wait 30 seconds. And we know she's gonna spring up really quickly at first and pull herself up. At the end of the 30 seconds, you repeat it again. And so that's where moving to that supported accelerated approach.
Even if it might not be the one you would have picked, Stania, it might actually be the one that's going to work best for your baby. And it still means she gets a lot of support and a lot of reassurance and your continuous presence throughout the whole process. But it just gives her that opportunity to see, I think so many babies who pull themselves up to stand, continue doing it because they know that when I do this,
Dr Laura (29:15.309)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (29:34.667)
I often get picked up really quickly and then laid back down. And I can kind of play this Jack in the box game where I just keep getting back up and then get laid back down again. And they know that it will derail anything you try to do. If I stand up, it derails what they're trying to do. So by waiting that 30 seconds or so and then laying her back down, just sticking to one really consistent approach, really quickly, she's going to realize there's no point in doing that. They actually don't do anything different. And she's also
Dr Laura (29:40.715)
Yes.
Dr Laura (29:49.175)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Laura (29:59.595)
Mm. Yeah, it's just so boring.
Dr Fallon (30:03.055)
Yeah, so boring. And she's getting 30 seconds or so to actually have a go at getting herself back down in a good position for sleep. Um, so that'd be the first thing I would think of, but, you know, I was thinking to Laura, don't you reckon there's a, um, you know, a good chance that there is a sleep pressure issue here as well. I think the ones who are really active in the cot, sometimes they're not quite ready for sleep.
Dr Laura (30:10.092)
Yes.
Dr Laura (30:22.033)
Yes.
Dr Laura (30:26.018)
Yeah, I think so. Sanja, if you're finding that each time you go to settle your baby in the cot, that you're popping her into the cot and she's crawling around, rolling around, pulling herself up to standing, we see some older babies who are practically doing a jig, holding on to the bath, and they're having a whale of a time. That really is telling us they are not quite ready to go to sleep. So I would be going back to double check.
Dr Fallon (30:42.185)
Mm-hmm
Dr Fallon (30:45.715)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (30:53.858)
what your baby's sleep needs are, log her sleep for a week. We know that across the first year, sleep needs can drop quite dramatically for some babies. So always go back, check what your baby's sleep needs are and ensure that the day sleep and night sleep are in line with what your baby's sleep needs are. And then there's more of a chance that when you pop your baby into the cot, she may still stand up because she likes it and because she has learned that
Dr Fallon (30:56.648)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (31:16.424)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:23.346)
If she keeps standing up, it keeps you longer at her side. But with that higher sleep pressure and then having that really predictable, boring response to her, those things combined might mean that the first time you use your settling approach, she might stand up 15 times in a row, perhaps. But then she's with high sleep pressure, she's going to be really very tired. And she's going to see, ah, mum's not doing anything different. This is really boring.
Dr Fallon (31:34.57)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (31:43.684)
Yeah. Yup.
Dr Laura (31:53.022)
I'm just going to stay lying down. And at that point, Sanja, you can start to extend your intervals and then giving her the opportunity to fall asleep as she's lying down. So yeah, double check her sleep needs, make sure that her sleep pressure is really high. Oh no, I've done that thing, Fallon. I stuck my thumb up and now I've had a... The thumb, I won't make the heart mistake. That's the other problem.
Dr Fallon (31:55.695)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (32:05.92)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Laura (32:20.546)
We'll have hearts and balloons going across the screen in a second.
Dr Fallon (32:24.37)
Yeah. We're not loving this whole new feature where you get the emojis pop up on the screen, because we're such gesticulators, aren't we?
Dr Laura (32:31.702)
Here we are. I'm sitting on my hands and I just literally moved my hand and that was, gosh, I can't help it. So if you assure Sanja that you're popping your baby down with nice high sleep pressure and just be very boring and predictable when she does stand up, in all likelihood, you're going to start to find that there is a settling approach that will work for your baby. Hang on in there. You're not alone.
Dr Fallon (32:36.959)
Yeah, you can't help it.
Dr Fallon (32:59.347)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:00.992)
and you will find an approach that works and your baby will start to go to sleep more easily at the start of the night.
Dr Fallon (33:08.251)
Yeah, those really active babies that often just need to be completely exhausted to really settle into sleep. And if you wait until they're really exhausted and then practice, you know, having them settle for sleep in their cot, after a while they get so good at settling in the cot, you'll find that they don't have to be quite as exhausted to do it. Yeah, they build up that skill and then suddenly you can put them down, you know, when you see the first few tired signs and then they're good, they know what to do. So hang in there, Sanja, it will get easier.
Dr Laura (33:26.306)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:34.304)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (33:37.892)
We also heard from Loretta. Do you want to read out Loretta's question?
Dr Laura (33:40.722)
Hmm. Yeah, so Loretta has a daughter who is two years and eight months old. And her and her partner are looking for help with her bedtime stalling behaviors, and her recent overnight wakings. So Loretta says that her daughter started using stalling behaviors about four months ago. And initially, she needed her mum or dad to be in the room with her until she fell asleep. But recently she's
they've been able to make some adjustments and are now going in and out of her room until she falls asleep. But that can take up to 30 minutes at the start of the night. And then to add insult to injury, over the last two weeks, Loretta says that her daughter started waking overnight, often twice around midnight and again around four. And she wakes up screaming, crying, they go into her.
Dr Fallon (34:23.039)
I'm gonna go to bed.
Dr Laura (34:38.482)
and it can take again up to 30 minutes for her to resettle in the middle of the night. They've ruled out all external factors, the temperature's fine, the darkness is fine, she's not sick. They also feel that in terms of her daily rhythm, they're feeling that they did have it right, but she's napping twice a week at daycare, she's not napping at home, although she does sometimes have a power nap.
Dr Fallon (34:50.925)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (35:05.418)
which can be 15 to 30 minutes in the car in the afternoon. She goes to bed somewhere between half seven and eight and she's waking up at around seven. So Loretta's question is, what do we do about the stalling behaviors and the overnight wakes? She doesn't think that the hands-on settling approaches will work as ultimately their toddler does go to sleep without them in the room, mostly at the start of the night. So they're at a loss, help, she writes.
Dr Fallon (35:31.668)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (35:35.7)
All right, we will. Let's help Loretta. Look, I would say, you know, she's coming up on three years of age. I think a lot of it would be driven by low sleep pressure. I'm sounding like a bit of a broken record on this one, but so often it is the real key to these difficulties. I would say the naps have to go, especially the little afternoon car naps.
Dr Laura (35:36.937)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (35:54.925)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (35:57.687)
It might be that for a week or so, maybe even do it over the sort of Easter holidays is often a really good time to really work hard on dropping all day sleep. Just because people tend to be around home a little bit more. But yeah, I would say that she's just getting that bit older and the occasional naps are bringing down that sleep pressure and that's meaning more night wakes and possibly just wanting them there a bit closer.
Dr Laura (36:09.194)
You know.
Dr Laura (36:16.578)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (36:23.079)
Um, simply because sleep pressure is a bit lower and often they want a little bit more comfort to get off to sleep. Um, and maybe thinking about separation anxiety as well. Um, you can read in Sombelle about separation anxiety and how to detect whether it's an issue for your child. Um, but it could be that, you know, if she's sometimes falling asleep and you're there and then wakes up and you're not there, that could be freaking her out a little bit, um, and making her feel a bit unsettled.
Dr Laura (36:28.491)
Mm.
Dr Laura (36:33.806)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (36:48.607)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (36:51.3)
What sort of approaches would you be thinking of suggesting to this family, Laura?
Dr Laura (36:55.266)
Well, if there is separation anxiety present, then I'd be thinking about using an approach that's respectful of that. So probably the parental fading approach. Now, do we call it parental fading in the clinic, Fallon? In the, in Sombelle? Yeah.
Dr Fallon (37:07.183)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Parental fading is an approach. It's actually in the section that's to do with settling toddlers who are in a bed. So if you're working in the cot section, just flip over to the section about settling in the bed. Um, the parental fading steps are a really great way of just gently building their confidence, being alone in their room while you're gradually moving out of their room. Um, and it is very slow and, and very, very supportive. Um.
Dr Laura (37:18.102)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (37:35.634)
Yeah, so when your daughter is going to sleep at the start of the night, then, yeah, you just over, probably about two weeks, you just increase the length of time that you're leaving for until she's so, so used to you leaving and coming back that she starts to fall asleep, waiting for you to come back. So that would vary a bit from what you're currently doing, Loretta, because it's just leaving the once and it's just that one time that gets longer and longer over a period of time.
Dr Fallon (37:56.403)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (38:02.431)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (38:04.958)
And that's if she's got separation anxiety. But if she hasn't, and again, like Fallon says, read the section about separation anxiety in Sombelle So if she doesn't have separation anxiety and is managing quite well with you going in and out at the start of the night, then I'd probably just be, I would check out the advanced accelerated approach just to put some nice structure around the coming in and out at the start of the night.
Dr Fallon (38:07.679)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (38:27.539)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (38:33.182)
and then using that same approach when she wakes up overnight as well. And that combined with a really predictable circadian rhythm where she's not having a nap anymore, rather than sometimes having it and sometimes not having it is likely to result in her going to sleep more easily without taking half an hour at the start of the night like it currently is, and those two half hour wakes in the middle of the night.
Dr Fallon (38:33.939)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (38:45.648)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (38:56.015)
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely. I'd also be thinking about that bedtime too. If even when you drop the naps, if it's still taking, you know, over 20 minutes for her to fall asleep at the start of the night, don't be afraid to push bedtime later. So I think Loretta mentioned it can be between 7.30 and 8.00 PM. Um, when she falls asleep, it might be that you make bedtime 8.00 PM for a while. So you really know that there's definitely a good buildup of sleep pressure and she's really, really ready for that sleep. Um, but well done Loretta. You're doing a.
Dr Laura (39:15.191)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (39:25.356)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (39:28.027)
brilliant job as are all the parents who have written in to us over the last week. I want to thank everyone who has also written us beautiful reviews. We've had some absolutely lovely reviews lately and Laura I can't help but think in particular of the family you saw in clinic who said they're so impressed by what you did with them they want to have a statue of you in their living room.
And that's amazing. It speaks to what a great job you're doing with families. So, yeah.
Dr Laura (39:58.071)
I laughed so hard when they said that to me and I told my children and my children went like, oh! So you're so lucky you get to have me actually in your room at bedtime.
Dr Fallon (40:10.707)
Yeah, they've got the real deal. No, it's, it's so lovely. And it really does make our day when we hear the lovely, lovely feedback you've got. And of course, if there are things that you think, I wish Sombelle had this feature or I'd love to hear more about this particular thing, let us know. Like with the, um, with Sanja sort of saying, what do I do with my baby standing up all the time?
it made Laura and I realize, okay, we've had that a few times now, maybe it's time we have a lesson that's just about that. So now we will add that to Sombelle. So we're always looking to expand Sombelle and improve it, we'll update it with the latest evidence, we'll be adding new approaches as they become available. You know, we aim to just provide the absolute everything you know, that parents are going to need. So if you've got feedback, we would absolutely love to hear it. And you can always email us. It's just Sombelle @ InfantSleep.com.au
Dr Laura (40:56.078)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (41:04.451)
And of course, if you remember and you've got questions, send them in because we love answering them. So yeah, thank you to all the lovely families that make our day to day work just such a joy. We absolutely love what we do. And I love making this podcast. It's such good fun.
Dr Laura (41:10.711)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (41:17.066)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (41:21.774)
Yeah, and it's great that we can see each other and other people can see us too now, Fallon.
Dr Fallon (41:27.471)
Yes, I know no more podcasts in our pajamas, Laura. We can't get away with that anymore.
Dr Laura (41:33.489)
Damn! I might have pyjama bottoms on maybe.
Dr Fallon (41:36.471)
Yeah, and look, I reckon you can throw a blazer over a pyjama top and usually get away with it. Alright, yeah, thanks everyone. See you!
Dr Laura (41:41.71)
Yeah. All right. Thanks, everybody.
Bye bye.
