Dr Fallon (00:02)
Hi, and welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a particular focus on sleeping, crying, and all the ups and downs of settling your baby, your toddler or your preschooler during those first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with my co -host, Dr. Laura Conway. How are you, Laura?
Dr Laura (00:24)
I'm good, thanks Fallon. I'm a little bit tired because I had early drop -offs of both my kids this morning at various school events. And so I'm already on my third coffee and I'm sure that there will be many families listening to this who are also perhaps out pushing a pram or something and they're having their second or third coffees too. How about you? How's your morning been?
Dr Fallon (00:31)
Uhhh...
You
Yes. Yeah. Good. Busy getting kids off to school and they're excited though. It's lunch order day today. So it's a good day for them. They were pretty happy to get off and out and about. Gotta love the lunch orders. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and we have some exciting news too, don't we? Because we, we had a bit of a look at the, um, the podcast charts during the week and.
Dr Laura (00:55)
Yeah, definitely so good.
Dr Fallon (01:10)
You guys, you know, the listeners are really helping get us up there in the charts. We peaked at number 12 in the parenting podcast charts, which was really, really exciting.
Dr Laura (01:16)
Yeah, we're so delighted. Fallon and I keep an eye on how many downloads we've had each week, probably me more so than Fallon. I'm a bit more of the number nerd, a data nerd. And when I look and see how many people have listened, I'm just so delighted when I see those numbers ticking up. And I know that...
Dr Fallon (01:29)
He certainly are.
Dr Laura (01:43)
We're meeting a need, aren't we, Fallon, which is great. And we get so many lovely emails from those of you listening, letting us know that you're finding it helpful, and that we're keeping you company on maternity leave or in the transition back to work. And it feels really nice. It's great to have created this community.
Dr Fallon (01:46)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it feels great, doesn't it? It's really lovely. And I wish we had time to read out all of those emails. Unfortunately, we don't, but thank you so much to those who send them in. And if you're loving listening in, please do drop us a review. It really, really helps. It helps more parents become aware that we're here. And it means more parents can tune in and get some tips on how to manage that early parenting phase. One of the things that I think we see time and time again, definitely in our clinical work, Laura,
Dr Laura (02:14)
Mm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (02:34)
Um, but it's also been a pretty common theme in the podcast too, is that so many parents report that they're really, they're really struggling with the idea of moving their baby or their toddler into a cot. Um, and I see this so much parents who are terrified to do it. You know, they've, they've really frightened of their child's big emotions and they'll say things to us like,
Dr Laura (02:47)
Mm.
Yes.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (02:58)
but you don't know how loud they scream and how full on it is. And it really, it frightens me. And I feel so overwhelmed by it. So in the clinic, we're often a little bit pressed for time, but we do try and talk to parents about, okay, why are we feeling like this? How can we best manage your experience? Because often children do get quite upset when we go to change where they fall asleep. And we always want to be giving them lots of support. It's a huge change for your baby or toddler.
Dr Laura (03:01)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (03:24)
We really recognise that if they've been falling asleep in your arms or during feeds and you're trying to help them adjust to falling asleep in a cot. I mean, that's just such a huge change. And sometimes no matter how much support we give them, they're cranky. They're not thrilled about this idea that mom or dad has got and they're going to use their little lungs to let you know about it.
Dr Laura (03:24)
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So when you've been falling asleep in that lovely, warm, cozy place on your parents' chests or curled up on the, I'm thinking for toddlers, curled up on the couch leaning against mum or dad or...
for younger babies being bounced on that fit ball up and down, up and down. And you've got the feeling of your mum or dad's arms around you and you can feel the nice soft boobs if it's mum and the heartbeat. It feels really lovely. And meanwhile, poor mum or dad is just starting to lose their mind and they're not finding it so lovely anymore. But obviously...
Dr Fallon (04:15)
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (04:38)
going from falling asleep in that lovely position to falling asleep in the cot is a big transition, like you were saying, but it's not, there's nothing wrong with doing it. And there's the cot that you're providing for your babies or toddlers. As long as of course we're following safe sleep guidelines, it's gonna be well constructed.
Dr Fallon (04:48)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (05:07)
piece of furniture, it's going to have a nice safe mattress, it's going to have nicely decorated and nice feeling linen in there, beautiful sleep suit, you know, it's the room is likely to smell nice and be nice and calming and dark. But that just cannot compete with the nice comfortable feeling of being pressed against mom's boots and cuddle.
Dr Fallon (05:22)
Mmm.
You
That's it. Yeah. It's just a very different experience and it's one that they really need some support to adjust to. And I think as well, of course listeners keep in mind that really little babies, they need to be held. And we're not suggesting that the moment your baby's born, you have to be putting them in their cot, cuddle them, let them have those contact naps. It's perfectly fine during those first few months. In today's episode, we're going to be talking more about the older babies.
Dr Laura (05:36)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (06:02)
where parents are getting to that point of utter exhaustion because they're having to hold their babies to fall asleep or having to feed them to fall asleep. And that's resulting in heaps of night waking, very sore backs as babies get really heavy. Or, you know, in the case of a lot of families we see, they're actually toddlers. So they're weighing quite a lot. They could be getting up close to, you know, 20 kilos sometimes. And it's just impossible to keep holding and feeding to sleep.
Dr Laura (06:06)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (06:31)
Yeah, but I would also think too, for those listening who have babies and you're thinking, okay, I'm feeling ready to start to work on my baby falling asleep in their cot. It can feel overwhelming because you might be thinking, I know they're going to be upset about it. And you know, I'm not sure how I'm going to manage it. What I'd also be keeping in mind too, is that the bigger they get, the more challenging some of these changes can become. So your baby might be a little bit upset and needs some support to adjust.
Dr Laura (06:54)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (06:58)
Um, it's easier to do it with a baby than with a big toddler who can climb out of the cart or stand up and, you know, rattle their sides of the cart. Um, and their voices are an awful lot bigger as well. So they do, they try to explain what they wanting. Um, so if it's one of your goals to move your baby to their cot, it's probably as good a time as any to have a think about how you're going to do it. Of course, the Sombelle program has a big focus on.
Dr Laura (07:02)
Yeah.
Yes, and they have words.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (07:26)
lots of strategies and how you're going to cope and how you can support your baby to feel secure as they make that adjustment. But I think today we could talk through some of the things that I know parents love to hear from me and from you Laura in clinic that puts their mind at ease and makes them feel like, Oh, maybe I actually can do this. Because I think that's um,
Dr Laura (07:41)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:51)
It's valuable hearing, you know, how it is possible and hearing about other families who have successfully made that change, who were just as frightened as you're feeling right now. Um, and we even thought this episode could be a good one that we can pop into some of the sleep plans for our families, um, in the clinic who often say, I just want to hear you tell me again, you know, how this is okay and how do I do this bit and, and all of that.
Dr Laura (08:00)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes, that's right. Yeah. And I find that when I say to parents that your job as parents isn't to stop your bigger babies or toddlers from having big emotions, your job is to support your baby and toddlers through those emotions.
and to show them that you love them no matter what. You love them before the emotion is expressed. You love them during the emotion being expressed no matter how loudly and violently that it might be being expressed. I'm thinking of some bigger toddlers in that instance. And then you're also gonna love them the same way once it's passed. And I find that parents really think that is quite helpful. That...
Dr Fallon (09:01)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (09:08)
It's not to our job as parents is not to stop all of these obstacles and to ensure that our babies and toddlers are just 100 % content all of the time. Cause that's just simply not possible. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:13)
Mmm.
Mm. Yeah, absolutely. You know, we want to raise children who are resilient and who know that if I do have a really big, overwhelming feeling, my parents will support me through it. They might not be able to remove the obstacle or the thing that's causing me to feel those things, but they will love me through that emotion. And yeah, after that emotion, as you say, Laura, and that is.
Dr Laura (09:40)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (09:47)
Really, it's a core kind of component of strong attachment between babies and their parents. Is your baby knowing that if I feel something big, my parent is there for me. They'll support me through that, that moment. Um, because a lot of parents do say to us, but you know, is this going to harm attachment? If I put my baby down in their cot and they're really hating it. Um, you know, what if it really impacts our relationship? And I think, well, if you're going to be there with them.
Dr Laura (09:54)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (10:16)
You are supporting them. You're giving them frequent cuddles. You're, you know, your hands are on them. You're, you're literally keeping your hands on them. You are, you might be humming to them. You might be shushing to them, but you're present there with them giving constant support. Then no, you're not doing any harm to that attachment. In fact, I would say the opposite is true. You're showing your baby that you are there for them. No matter what they're feeling, you're there and you're there to support them.
Dr Laura (10:41)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (10:44)
which is a really powerful thing. We often like to sort of talk in analogies a little bit, don't we, Laura, because often it's a really powerful way to explain a concept to a parent. And one of the ones that I use quite a lot with families I see in clinic is I sort of liken a baby's experience when they're trying to fall asleep in the cot as being really similar to when adults are traveling in an airplane. So if you're on a long haul flight,
Dr Laura (10:45)
Yeah.
Mm.
Mm.
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Dr Fallon (11:13)
you, oh God, I hate long flights. It's horrible to even talk about. I don't sleep well on airplanes. I really don't. So if you're trying to sleep on a plane, it feels so different from your normal place of sleep. You know, you're in a different position. The seat is nowhere near as soft and comforting as your mattress. Usually you're not on the plane with a doona. You don't have a pillow. There's weird noises. It is
Dr Laura (11:17)
Heheheheh
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (11:40)
very, very different experience to falling asleep in your bed. And it can be really hard to fall asleep in that environment. But what I want you to think about is when you're on that aeroplane and you're trying to fall asleep, are you terrified? Are you stressed out? Are you scared? You're not. You're really cranky, especially if you're me. You're probably having a really good win just to whoever's sitting around you about how hard it is to fall asleep.
Dr Laura (11:44)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Whoever, whoever's sitting next to you is probably very angry listening to your whinging.
Dr Fallon (12:12)
Probably. Yeah. But that's the thing. It's, you know, you're going to feel cranky and frustrated and annoyed because this is a really hard place to fall asleep and you're not used to it, but you're not frightened. You're not worried. You don't think that, you know, everything is terrible and it's never going to be okay again. And that's the experience your baby is having as well. They're expressing, they're annoyed. Like, what are you doing? We don't normally sleep here. I don't like it. It doesn't feel the same.
Dr Laura (12:22)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (12:39)
This is not the experience I was expecting. But our role is to support them through that. You know, if they, when we were all little babies, we would have in that airplane situation, we would cry because we wouldn't know how to say things like, I'm frustrated. This isn't quite comfortable. Can we change things? So I think that's a really important thing to keep front of mind when you're giving your baby a lot of loving support while they're getting used to falling asleep in their cot.
Dr Laura (12:46)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:07)
Yes, they might cry and get cranky at times. Um, but it's, it's crankiness. It's not fear or that they're worried about something because you are there giving such intense comfort and support for them through that feeling. And I hope that helps parents because I, to me, I think it's a really good explanation for what a baby's experience is, is similar to, or what it would be like in a similar situation for an adult.
Dr Laura (13:10)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's a really great analogy and I use that as well with families in clinic and they find it really helpful. Another thing that parents may find helpful when we think about making this transition to falling asleep in the cot or bed rather than in your arms is that oftentimes, not always, but often when
babies and toddlers fall asleep in one place and then wake up in another, like they fall asleep in your arms and they wake up in their cot or bed later. They're really unhappy about it. And something has changed since they fell asleep and therefore they wake up and may be a bit upset about it and can't get back to sleep until you use that same technique to get them to sleep again. And what that can lead to then is really fragmented night's sleep for...
your baby or toddler and also for you. And we all know what it feels like and particularly those people listening know how awful it feels to have a run of even just a few days of really fragmented sleep, but add in weeks and months and possibly years for those families who have older toddlers, you're not functioning at your best and your child,
Dr Fallon (14:40)
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (14:57)
isn't going to be functioning at their best either. So yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:59)
No, and they're doing some of the most important learning of their life, you know, on the back of fragmented sleep. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (15:04)
Yes.
Yeah, so it's really important parenting role to support your child to be able to have better sleep. And if the way that they're falling asleep is actually leading to them waking up multiple times a night because they have a strong sleep association with being fed to sleep or bounced to sleep or held to sleep or needing you beside them, then they're
not going to be able to get those long stretches of sleep that they need for their development. So what we often find, I had a family just in clinic this week coming in for their review appointment, saying to me that before they started working on the cot settling with their older baby, they had thought that their baby was a relatively happy baby. They would have described her as generally happy, but now she's not waking up four times a night.
Dr Fallon (15:40)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Laura (16:05)
They're really seeing her shine and she's so much better rested and even more delightful than they had realized. Sorry, that was just my doorbell. Hopefully that won't disturb anyone. Yeah. And so they also described how they themselves as a couple were feeling much better and they were then finding that their interactions with each other and with their child were a greater quality.
Dr Fallon (16:08)
lovely.
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (16:35)
during the day. I'm sorry, Fallon, they're now banging at the door. Sorry. I'm just going to go hang on a sec.
Dr Fallon (16:38)
All right, we'll take a break.
All right, so we were talking about how it has such a big flow on effect for the whole family. So you often parents do notice that their babies are much happier when they're getting that consolidated sleep that has huge benefits for parents, also usually the siblings as well. And I think one of the really important things there is that,
Dr Laura (16:52)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (17:02)
Once your baby makes that adjustment, they're no longer having that unsettled feeling of, you know, I fell asleep in mom or dad's arms and it was lovely and warm and cozy. And then I woke up in my cot. So that kind of shock of that is pretty upsetting. And often, um, older babies and toddlers start to think, well, I'm just not going to fall asleep then because I know what you'll do. You'll put me in my cot when I'm asleep.
Dr Laura (17:15)
Yes. Yeah. Yes.
I'm
Dr Fallon (17:28)
And then I'm going to wake up with a big fright wondering how I got there. And I really, really don't like that. So often once they've adjusted to falling asleep in the cot, they're no longer waking up in this kind of frazzle multiple times per night. Um, and they kind of trust you then they know you're not going to try and sneak them anywhere. And I think that's a really important thing for building a strong parent child relationship is that they really trust, you know, in what you're doing and that you're not going to try and kind of sneak, um,
Dr Laura (17:32)
Yes.
Yes. Yeah.
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (17:55)
sneak them into the cot when they're not expecting. Cause we do see some babies and toddlers who fight sleep, really fight it because they just think I'm not going to sleep because I know what you'll do. Yeah.
Dr Laura (17:58)
Yes.
Yes, yeah, absolutely. We do see that. I think that's a really crucial point for our listeners, Fallon, that actually the cot settling can build trust because they're not then having that feeling of, I don't trust you, mum. I don't trust you, dad. I'm not going to go to sleep because you're just going to do something I don't want to do. So when you start off like you mean to go on,
Dr Fallon (18:15)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (18:35)
then they know what they're getting. And they know you're just going to be doing the same old boring thing at bedtime. And they're going to be supporting you. And nothing is going to change overnight.
Dr Fallon (18:39)
you
Yeah. Yeah. It's a good way to help them feel a bit more secure and settled. And I think as well, you know, it's interesting we're having this conversation because as we record this, it's actually safe sleep week. So everyone's probably been seeing a lot of really informative posts from Red Nose who do a lot of work around making sure babies and toddlers are safe in their sleep space. Um, and I think for a lot of families, they are using strategies. They might be, um, you know, bringing their baby into their bed or.
Dr Laura (18:53)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (19:17)
I had a family this week where they are parents are taking turns sitting in a recliner with their baby sleeping on top of them. Um, and I can understand how they got to that point. They've had a really rough time. Um, and I've seen multiple families like that over the years. That is one of the most dangerous things you can do with a baby is having them sleep on top of you while you're asleep. Um, so if you're in.
Dr Laura (19:23)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (19:42)
this position where you think, I know I'm using unsafe sleep practices and I feel terrible about it, but I just don't know how to make that change. Your baby is safe in their cot. You can give them lots of support, as much support as you want to fall asleep in their cot. They might not like it at first, but it's going to be important for keeping them safe. And safety comes above everything else. I've worked with families who have lost babies to SIDS and they come to us with their
Dr Laura (20:02)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (20:10)
Other children saying, please help us. We can't go through that again. Of course not. It's utterly heartbreaking and devastating. So I would think about working on having your baby sleep in their safe cot as being just as important as buckling their seatbelt when you put them in their car seat. You want to reduce risk because nobody wants to lose a baby. Um, which I know sounds very, very serious, but it does happen to people and yeah. And they would give anything to turn back the clock.
Dr Laura (20:14)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
But it is. And it is serious. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (20:39)
and do things differently. Um, so I think do keep that front of mind. If you're in that position, you absolutely can get your baby settling in the cot. Um, and if you need help with that, obviously we can provide support with that too. But I think just start by putting them in there, give them all the support you want to give them in there. Um, and know that after, isn't it funny, Laura, we often talk about this. It might be one or two tricky settles and then parents go, Oh, it's done. I think. Yeah.
Dr Laura (20:40)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, we couldn't believe it. We couldn't believe it how quick it happened. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (21:09)
All the time. There was an email I was going to read out today. I know we won't have time in the show, but so many families contact us and say, I was petrified of making this big change. And then the first settle took like maybe 20 minutes and then every settle after that got quicker. And they often say to me, thank God we gave it a try because we almost weren't brave enough to try it. Um, but we gave it a shot. It wasn't actually as hard as we thought it would be. And now.
Dr Laura (21:20)
Hehehehe
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (21:37)
Here we are with a baby who is sleeping better. Obviously there are other factors, you know, you need to consider. We are very strongly advocate for looking at baby's individual sleep needs. So if you've tried to settle your baby in the cot and you've really persisted and it was a disaster, I almost would put money on there being a sleep pressure problem that hasn't been addressed. Um, so if you are facing really big hurdles, be sure to work through the Sombelle chapter on unique sleep needs and really work to what your baby's unique sleep needs are.
Dr Laura (21:47)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (22:06)
If they're averaging 11 hours of sleep per 24 hours, that's the amount of opportunity you're going to give them to sleep per 24 hours. That will also feel a little bit scary at first, but it really helps when you do go to work on cot settling. So if you need support with that, check out that Sombelle chapter and work through it really closely because it often makes a really huge difference.
Dr Laura (22:07)
Mm.
Yeah. Mm -hmm.
Yeah, definitely. And once you've got the sleep pressure right, when you then go to pop your baby or toddlers down in their cot or bed and use your chosen settling approach, you'll be amazed at how much easier it is than you think it's going to be. Yes, they may protest. They probably will. Your toddlers will tell you all about it. They won't be happy. But when you stay really calm,
Dr Fallon (22:42)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (22:55)
and confident and know that you're doing the right thing for your family and your baby and toddler. That can really help you stay the distance, stay calm and consistent, know that that's building your baby or toddler's trust in you and you're gonna get through it and you'll be like many of the families that email us and who we see in clinic telling us these great.
Dr Fallon (23:06)
Mm.
Dr Laura (23:22)
turn around stories, these transformations that they say is life changing for everybody. So be brave, choose your approach and have a little mantra in your head if you need to, my baby is safe, warm and loved and I'm doing the right thing. And before you know it, things are gonna be much better for you.
Dr Fallon (23:25)
Yes.
Absolutely. And what a brilliant parenting skill you're going to have in your toolkit for all the many, many times during toddlerhood, preschool, probably even teenage years as well, where you're going to be confronted by big emotions in your child and you're going to know how to support them through that. You're going to be there with them and they're going to understand that you always are there to support them because sometimes those obstacles can't be removed and all we can do as parents is just be there for them. So.
Dr Laura (23:54)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (24:13)
Yeah, you're really practicing an important skill. All right, well, shall we move towards some parent questions? We've got a whole bunch this week and I reckon we can probably lose through some of these pretty quickly. Do you want to start by reading out Kelly's question, Laura?
Dr Laura (24:16)
Hmm.
Yeah, sure. So Kelly wrote in to ask about her 15 month old. He has a 13 hour sleep need and he self settles for his nap and at bedtime. Two months ago, though, he started waking every single night, sometimes briefly, but other times for up to two hours. He stands up, refuses to lay down, but eventually puts himself back to sleep again. He naps for two hours each day.
Dr Fallon (24:44)
Oof.
Dr Laura (24:53)
Kelly is desperate for some advice on how to resolve this night waking. What's do you reckon Fallon?
Dr Fallon (24:58)
Oh, yeah. It sounds tricky. Um, I would say I would actually do another sleep diary reading for this toddler. Um, because with a longer night wake that's persisting every single night, it's going to be a sleep pressure issue. So there's something just off with the timing. It might be that he had a 13 hour sleep need. Um, you know, and was, I mean, he's having a two hour, two hour day nap.
Dr Laura (25:07)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
to our day now.
Dr Fallon (25:26)
which would leave him about 11 hours left to do overnight. That might've worked for a time, but if you look at his diary now and you add in the fact that he's awake for a long period overnight, it might be that that total sleep duration is actually lower. It definitely sounds like, yeah, a sleep pressure problem or a timing problem. So get that reading. Maybe now he needs say 12 hours of sleep per 24 hours. So that might mean you cap his total day sleep maybe in an hour. And then you give him a 10 hour.
Dr Laura (25:40)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:55)
Sorry, an 11 hour window still overnight to add up to that kind of 12 hour sleep need. So Kelly, yeah, take a look at the sleep diary. There's something a little bit off there. You might just need to have a bit of a tinker.
Dr Laura (25:59)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yeah, given that he can self settle, it's not a settling issue. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (26:13)
Yeah, that's exactly right. The fact that he can self settle and overnight, you know, you're going into him and you're trying to help him get back to sleep and he's just not that really tells us it's purely a timing difficulty because he's got those self settling skills, but he just can't use them during those wake ups during the night. Hang in there, Kelly. I think once you figure out that timing issue, it should all start to come together. We also had Loretta who wrote in to ask about her two and a half year old.
Dr Laura (26:26)
Yeah.
Mm. Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (26:44)
Loretta says she used to self settle very quickly at bedtime, but in the last four months, she started to take a long time to fall asleep, sometimes up to two hours. And Loretta says they have to sit on a chair in her room until she's asleep. Lately, they've started to come and go from her room before she falls asleep and she is tolerating that, which is fantastic. Loretta says she doesn't nap at all anymore, but she does sneak in the occasional power nap in the car.
Dr Laura (26:55)
Oh.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (27:14)
She goes to bed at 7 .30 PM and then wakes at around 7 AM in the morning. She's recently started to wake one or two times overnight, which is a new thing. And she's quite upset. They find they have to calm her and wait in her room for her to fall back asleep again. So Loretta is pretty tired and would really like some tips on what to do. What are your first thoughts on this case, Laura?
Dr Laura (27:33)
Yes.
Yeah. My first thoughts are to complete the sleep diary, but I'm suspecting that if she's going to bed at 7 .30, but it's sometimes taking up to two hours to go to sleep, that that 7 .30 bedtime is probably a bit too early with that 7 a .m. wake up. So it may be that, you know, it looks that that would be an
Dr Fallon (27:48)
Ahem.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (28:04)
you're aiming for about 11 and a half hours overnight. It might be that your daughter actually only needs 10 and a half hours maybe, or even just 11 hours, because it's not every night she's taking up to two hours. It's just some nights it's up to two hours to go to sleep. And give it similar to Kelly's situation with her toddler, Loretta's daughter was able to go to sleep by herself.
Dr Fallon (28:14)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (28:33)
until recently, probably there's been a recent drop in her sleep needs as she's becoming a bigger toddler. And we just need to adjust bedtime and wake up accordingly. What do you think Fallon?
Dr Fallon (28:41)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah. I would say, well, in cases like this, I often tell parents just for a week, jot down what time your child actually fell asleep. Um, so even though she's going to bed at seven 30, it sounds like sometimes she's not falling asleep to maybe eight 30. So if you track it over the week and you find that actually the average time at which she falls asleep for the night is eight 30, for example, what you can do is make eight 30 the bedtime. And I know this sounds a little bit nutty, but what you're going to do is.
Dr Laura (28:57)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (29:16)
you're only going to say good night to her right when her, you know, her circadian rhythm is actually ready for her to go to sleep. And that means that because she's dropping off to sleep quickly, you can practice having your really lovely bedtime routine that ends exactly at that eight 30 bedtime. Um, and that that's likely to result in her dropping off to sleep quickly. So really soon she's going to associate, I finished the bedtime routine and I go straight to sleep. And so all the, um,
Dr Laura (29:22)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:43)
You know, the mucking around that can happen for toddlers at bedtime sometimes that all stops and that's no longer part of their habit to have all these different requests and demands at bedtime. They're learning, we finished the routine and I go straight to sleep because that sleep pressure is so high and they're so ready for it. After a couple of weeks, if she's falling asleep quickly at that new time, start to gradually bring bedtime earlier. You might do a sort of 15 minutes earlier every three or four days. If she starts to take a long time to fall asleep.
Dr Laura (29:50)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (30:12)
dial it back a bit, you know, you might have to adjust that bedtime again. Um, but that'd be the quickest way to get faster settling at bedtime. Um, yeah. And then just gradually inch it forward.
Dr Laura (30:14)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, and I think in terms of the settling, once you have got that bedtime.
daughter, excuse me, is ready to fall asleep, you're going to find it much easier to be able to leave the room and for her to be falling asleep whilst you're outside of her room. And then when that's happening really consistently, it's less likely that she's going to be waking in the night, wondering where you are upset. Because if at the moment, sometimes she's falling asleep with you in her room, and sometimes you're out of her room.
Dr Fallon (30:41)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:59)
She may just be feeling a little bit discombobulated when she wakes up in the night and you're not there. So with that higher sleep pressure, she may be able to maintain her sleep for longer overnight. And then also as she's falling asleep while she's out of the room at the start of the night, when she wakes up in the night and comes up into light sleep and sees that you're not there, she's not gonna be so upset about it and is more likely to be able to pop herself back into her next sleep cycle.
Dr Fallon (31:04)
Mmm.
Yeah, I think that's great advice. You're doing a really good job, Loretta. And it sounds like you've used maybe our parental fading steps to reduce your presence in the room. Um, and they are really, really effective. They're very supportive. Um, it really takes it at the pace that a toddler can manage. So if others are listening in and having similar problems, um, have a bit of it, you can search within Sombelle for parental fading, um, and have a read through those steps cause they are really good ones. Um, we also had.
Dr Laura (31:35)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (31:56)
Mei write in with some questions about her five month old sleep following recent illness. So she says that during his illness he had some extra day sleep and following the illness he seems to be taking even less day sleep than before he got sick. So she's wondering if he will go back to having more day sleep like he used to. She also describes him waking up early.
Dr Laura (31:57)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (32:19)
and suspects his sleep needs are changing, but worries about how to track his sleep if he's constantly catching new viruses that impact how much sleep he's having. Um, look at five months, I don't know what you'd say, Laura, I reckon, you know, there's usually a drop in how much sleep they need at that time. So it is possible that he won't go back to having as much sleep as before.
Dr Laura (32:27)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, it may actually just have been a coincidence that the sickness happened at the same time that his sleep needs were dropping. And even if he hadn't got sick, you may have found that the sleep needs dropped. Yeah. And we always just look at where the baby is at this moment in time, not what they were doing two weeks ago, one month ago.
Dr Fallon (32:56)
Hmm.
Mm, that changed so quick.
Dr Laura (33:08)
It changes so quickly, particularly in these first few months. It's very, very rapid changes. So think about tracking his sleep. Now you might do it for a couple of weeks, perhaps. But really, you're mainly looking at what's happened in the last week. And look, the worst that would happen is that you'd devise a new schedule.
Dr Fallon (33:12)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:35)
that is for slightly less sleep than perhaps he ultimately needs. But once you get him sleeping better, the quality of his sleep will improve and you can then add an extra 15 minutes to bedtime, for example, or to wake up time in the morning if he still seems tired. And so, yeah, it's not set in stone any schedule that you put together for your baby based on what's been happening most recently.
Dr Fallon (33:46)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (34:02)
And then you can always make adjustments if you feel like your baby is a bit grumpy during the day and might not be getting enough sleep.
Dr Fallon (34:07)
Hmm.
Yeah. And that's what I always say to parents, look at their mood, not immediately after you implement a new schedule. Cause often they're very cranky whenever we adjust the daily rhythm a little bit, but after a week on that daily rhythm, is he quite happy and relaxed or is he really moody and not doing well? Um, and that will guide you on whether maybe you've underestimated his sleep needs slightly. Um, Mei would also like to know if she does need to cut down his day sleep to help preserve his nighttime sleep.
Dr Laura (34:18)
Yes.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (34:40)
Should she keep nap times the same and just trim some sleep from his final nap of the day? Hmm. It's a good question. I mean, generally I would say to trim sleep from that last nap because I usually say it should just always be the shortest nap of the day. Um, so yeah, I'd probably say, yeah, trim it from the third nap. Given that he's five months old, it could even be that he's getting close to just dropping.
Dr Laura (34:47)
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (35:06)
to two naps. So if you can't trim that nap very much, it might even be that it's nearly time for it to go.
Dr Laura (35:07)
Mm.
And you might then find that the first nap moves a little bit later, because when babies do move from three to two and two to one, the length of time that they can tolerate being awake in the morning before they go down for their first nap ordinarily gets longer. So if you do find that you need to drop that third nap, the time of that first nap is going to get a little bit later, Mei
Dr Fallon (35:16)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (35:41)
And equally, the second nap will also get a bit later.
Dr Fallon (35:41)
Mmm.
Yeah, and that sort of ties into Mei's final question, which is when she describes that her son's daycare often puts him down for his third nap earlier than she would at home. And so he's sometimes needing a short fourth nap to make it through to bedtime. She says he copes okay with this, but she wonders if it might cause problems.
Dr Laura (35:56)
Hmm.
Given that he's five months old, what we'll probably start to see, Mei is that he will begin to resist having that fourth short nap because he's just going to be able to tolerate having a bit longer awake before bedtime. If he's coping fine with it at the moment, then you can keep going.
Dr Fallon (36:23)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (36:33)
But if you start, what we would start to see, I suppose, if it becomes problematic, it will be because you'll be looking to put him down at bedtime and he's just not going to be able to go to sleep at the usual bedtime because the sleep pressure is just coming off too close to bed or he might start waking more overnight again. And then you'll know, oh, actually on the days that he has that extra nap, it's, it's impacting nighttime for everybody.
Dr Fallon (36:46)
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah
Dr Laura (37:02)
and then you'd say okay well it's not working anymore. What would you say, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (37:05)
Yes, and may already describes that he is waking quite early. So it could even be that that little fourth nap every now and then is actually driving the early wake up. So if you drop it, you might find that actually the sleep ins are starting to happening again. So yeah, if they're having a little bit too much day sleep, you're either going to feel it at bedtime where they're just not wanting to settle quickly and easily, um, frequent night wakings or really long overnight wakes or the early risings.
Dr Laura (37:10)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (37:32)
So you could just monitor that may and adjust things sort of as needed.
Dr Laura (37:36)
Great, well done Mei! Keep going and send us through an update. So we have also had an email from Anna. So Anna's written in with questions about her 18 month old. So Anna used the slow fade approach to move from co -sleeping and feeding to sleep to settling in the cot. Well done Anna. That's a really big task that you've done. Yeah, well done.
Dr Fallon (37:39)
Yeah.
Yeah. Big change.
Dr Laura (38:03)
So Anna says that despite weaning her off feeding to sleep, she still wakes four to five times each night. And once she hits 5 a .m., she absolutely won't go back to sleep without first breastfeeding. Anna says she goes to bed between 6 .45 and 7 .45 depending on her day sleeps, but wakes around 9 p .m., midnight, 2 a .m., 4 a .m., and then 5 a .m. Oh, Anna.
Dr Fallon (38:31)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (38:33)
He must be shattered! Yeah.
Dr Fallon (38:35)
Yeah, that's a lot of night working for an 18 month old, isn't it? Um, yeah. Look, there are two main things that jump out at me. The first is with that, um, the sort of slow fade approach. Have you finished all the steps? So often parents, excuse me, get to a point where they're patting their toddler to sleep in the cot, but they haven't phased out the patting So if you're still patting to sleep.
Dr Laura (38:39)
That is a lot. Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (39:04)
She might just be waking up going, where did that hand go? Get back over here and start patting me again. How dare you. So it could be that that's sort of perpetuating the night wakings and that you really just need to completely phase out the patting to sleep. Um, so definitely be thinking about that. The other thing that jumps out at me is it does sound a bit like a sleep pressure problem. I mean, it is quite a lot of night waking. She's no longer expecting, um, feeds overnight until that 5am one.
Dr Laura (39:07)
Yes!
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (39:33)
So Anna, I would definitely, if you haven't already, do your sleep diary, look at how much sleep she's getting on average and be sure to not include, you know, the night wake. So you need to subtract any night wakes from that total sleep duration and then start to think about how to divvy that up between the day and the night. She's probably having, actually, interestingly, she mentions day sleeps. So that could be a clue if she's having two day naps still.
Dr Laura (39:47)
Yes.
Ah, yes.
Dr Fallon (40:02)
that absolutely by 18 months of age is going to have an effect on her night. So if she's having two naps, cut it down to one nap. But look at that total sleep duration and then you might decide, okay, if we've got 12 hours to work with, for example, maybe she has an hour and a half day nap and then you aim for 8 p .m. to 6 .30 a .m. overnight or something, for example, keep it to that total amount of sleep that she actually averages.
Dr Laura (40:10)
Yeah, definitely.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (40:29)
That'll drive up her sleep pressure. And if she's not reliant on help to fall asleep, um, at bedtime, there's a really good chance she'll start to just, you know, rouse in the night, but she'll resettle herself back to sleep without needing you to go in and, and do anything. Um, so it's probably a lot to digest, but I think there's some key things to look into Anna. And if you get stuck, reach out to us again and let us know how you're going.
Dr Laura (40:29)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. And that bedtime is between 6 .45 and 7 .45. An hour range is quite wide. So once you have worked out the daytime sleep, that's going to help you then determine a more consistent bedtime that doesn't have that whole hour.
Dr Fallon (41:00)
Yeah.
Hmm. That can help a lot because otherwise the circadian rhythm kind of thinks, I can do a bit of this, bit of that. There's not really that kind of tight rhythm. So we often say the best signpost to keep your circadian rhythm kind of in check and ticking along predictably is having the same bedtime and the same wake up time. The wake up time can be a little bit wobbly, but just have a certain time by which you always get them up in the morning. And that can just mean that every time they're going down to bed,
Dr Laura (41:19)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (41:38)
They are really ready for sleep because that's when their circadian rhythm expects it. Um, and that can make settling easier as well. Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (41:42)
Hmm. Yeah. Excellent. Now, we have also had an email from Kimberly, who has a nine month old who's been diagnosed with RSV. Oh, poor thing. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah. So unsurprisingly, her baby has been sleeping a lot more during the day since becoming unwell. Kimberly wonders if all the extra sleep she's having will impact her sleep once she recovers.
Dr Fallon (41:56)
Oh, that's terrible. Mmm.
Dr Laura (42:13)
And if we have any tips for getting sleep and settling back on track post sickness. Well, really great questions, Kimberly. First up, I want to say that when your babies and toddlers are unwell, it is important to let them have extra sleep so that their bodies can fight the virus or bacteria that has invaded their little bodies. So absolutely you're doing the right thing, Kimberly.
Dr Fallon (42:18)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (42:42)
let her have much more sleep during the day, you know, when babies and toddlers are unwell with such awful illnesses like RSV, you just want to pause that daily rhythm that you have and let them have as much sleep as necessary. Once they're better, however, we can then think about bringing the timing back in.
Dr Fallon (42:56)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (43:11)
and starting to reduce the amount of day sleep that they're having going back to the schedule that you had been using before they came on well. Maybe helpful depending how long they were on well with and I know RSV can be really quite nasty. So it may be worth just redoing a sleep diary once they're better just to see what their sleep needs are at that point. And...
Then we think about, you know, once a baby is better, so once you're nine months old, has recovered Kimberly, how much extra support were you having to give her to go to sleep and stay asleep while she was unwell? And how can we start to rein that back in to where you were before? And it may be that we go with something really gradual where you may be...
Dr Fallon (44:03)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (44:09)
you know, if you'd been having to hold her to sleep because she was very unwell, it may be that you look at simply patting her all the way off to sleep in her cot and then weaning off the patting. Or if you previously used the supported accelerated approach, you might think about going back to using that, but staying on shorter intervals if you're feeling a little bit unsure about how she's feeling post her illness.
Dr Fallon (44:18)
Hmm
Dr Laura (44:37)
And ordinarily babies and toddlers bounce back relatively quickly when they have been unwell. And you'll have a really good sense of when she's fully better and when she's going to be ready to start to settle by herself and her cot again.
Dr Fallon (44:42)
Hmm.
Yeah, and with RSV, it's so important that you're keeping her in a safe sleep space. So I'd be aiming to be putting her down in her cot for that sleep as much as you can. And, you know, move, you might set up a spare bed or something really close to her cot in her nursery, if she's in the nursery, so that you can still keep an eye on her, you can still reach over and give her comfort. But the safest place during a respiratory illness is really in the cot, in a safe cot. I hope she gets better soon, Kimberly.
Dr Laura (45:11)
Hmm.
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (45:23)
It sounds really, really tricky. Shelly's also reached out about her five and a half month old. She says she's been doing the quick fade approach and absolutely loving it. She said that the first night was tricky and then cot settling got a whole lot easier and even night waking has already reduced. So well done, Shelly. I think you're a good example of a parents who probably felt a little bit overwhelmed trying to work on cot settling, but actually went, oh, this is doable. So well done on persisting with that.
Dr Laura (45:26)
Hmm.
Brilliant. Well done.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (45:53)
However, as is very common, Shelly is still having a few difficulties. So she, she describes a few things actually in her email that made me think that her daughter's total sleep needs have likely had a sharp decline over the past week or two. And this includes things like Shelly saying she's having false starts. So she's waking about 40 minutes after she falls asleep at bedtime. And then she takes one or two hours to resettle. Yeah. So that's definitely.
Dr Laura (45:56)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Ooh. Yeah, that's painful.
Dr Fallon (46:22)
Yeah, it's a sleep pressure problem. And I think the sleep needs have probably dropped. Shelly also says that she started to just have short cat naps in the daytime. So she's having around three 40 minute naps, where she used to have closer to three hours total day sleep. So that's dropped off a bit too. And Shelly also describes that she's resisting settling for her naps. So she's getting quite cranky at nap time and it's hard work for Shelly to settle her.
Dr Laura (46:34)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (46:48)
So Shelly is wondering how she can possibly begin to phase out the patting to sleep, which is part of that, the quick fade approach when her daughter is often so cranky and upset at nap time. And I think that's a really valid question because you're having some long challenging settles, particularly that first overnight one, just sitting there patting can feel a little futile, I think when you've got a baby who resists it really hard. What sort of things would you be looking at with this one, Laura?
Dr Laura (46:49)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Yeah, I would be thinking about her baby's age and at five and a half months. That is often the time where sleep needs can drop and very close to six months where that's quite a common age for babies to move to having two naps. And that might mean that Shelley may
Dr Fallon (47:38)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (47:46)
benefit from moving to two naps a day, which then might end up being longer. When we're at this kind of transition point where babies are just between, they're going from, their sleep needs have dropped, they're on three naps, I would actually argue that Shelley's baby is still trying to have four because that false start sounds like a last nap of a day because the baby's then taking an hour or two to go.
Dr Fallon (47:51)
Mmm.
Mmm. It does.
Dr Laura (48:15)
back to sleep for the full nighttime sleep. So what we often see is that that transition point, particularly for babies that have a slightly lower sleep need than average, is that they are just catnapping and it feels really hard to get them off that. So when we actually force the issue and say, do you know what, we're going to move it to just the two naps, you'll have a few days, Shelley, where your baby may be a little bit cranky.
as they're having a longer time awake before you pop them down for their first nap. But then what you'll find is that your baby's sleep pressure will be a bit higher when you put them down for the nap. You won't be having to pat them for quite so long to go off to sleep. And then they're more likely to do two sleep cycles. And then likewise for the next nap, they may do two sleep cycles. And then you're not going to feel quite so ineffective.
Dr Fallon (48:57)
you
Yeah.
Dr Laura (49:11)
doing lots of pats at your baby's cot for a long time and then being really grumpy about it.
Dr Fallon (49:17)
Hmm. And you should definitely see that false start disappear reasonably quickly. And like we always say to families, it won't happen straight away. It's not going to happen the first day. It might not happen the third day. Yeah. Really stick to a new schedule for a full week to see how it works for your child. Um, yeah. And I would also say to, I say this a lot, but often when parents get to this point with the quick fade approach, their baby can settle in the cot. You know, it's all gotten a bit easier.
Dr Laura (49:25)
Hmm.
No.
Dr Fallon (49:46)
Um, and they're thinking, how do I phase this out? So many parents will switch to the supported accelerated approach. So your patting becomes a little bit more intermittent, um, because your baby's had a lot of experience falling asleep in their cot. And many parents will find that by patting intermittently instead of constantly the babies actually fall asleep a bit quicker because it turns out that that patting is starting to just feel, some of them find it a bit irritating, you know, it keeps them awake.
Dr Laura (49:56)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (50:12)
And when parents stop it, they're really surprised because their baby's actually fall asleep quite quickly. Um, so yeah, it sounds like you're working through a lot, Shelley, but my goodness, you got off to a wonderful start. You've made fantastic progress. Um, it's just going to be a few little tweaks to really, um, you help your baby find their feet and continue with that progress. So well done. All right. That wraps up our parent questions for the week. And I just have a few little things I want to make our listeners aware of. The first is this.
Dr Laura (50:25)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (50:40)
Awesome opportunity. Coming up on April 22nd, we are doing a baby sleep masterclass on behalf of the Parents You've Got This group. So go and look them up on Instagram and give them a follow because they get lots of experts to talk on lots of different topics and we do their sleep stuff. We are going to be presenting alongside a couple of representatives from Red Nose Australia. So they'll be talking about safe sleep.
we'll be talking about the sort of sleep and settling side of things and how to troubleshoot difficulties. That's entirely free and it's going to be offered both as an in -person option for people who live in Melbourne who want to come along and be part of it, but it's also going to stream live on Instagram. So you can register and watch that one. So it's a great chance to...
Yeah, get a bit of free sleep advice. And if you're in Melbourne, you can come along and even meet us in person, which would be so lovely. And hopefully we'll get lots of baby cuddles, Laura. I've been doing so much Telehealth I need to snuggle some babies. Um, we also wanted to just remind families that if you'd like to submit questions to the podcast, if you can do it via email, because sometimes we miss messages on Facebook and Instagram and we don't want to leave you hanging. So, um,
Dr Laura (51:35)
Yes!
Yeah, that would be wonderful.
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (51:55)
in the Sombelle membership, you can grab our email in there, shoot us through your questions and as best as you can, try and keep it to a few brief dot points. So have a big think about what it is you really want help with the most, just so that we can maximize the number of parent questions we get to each week, because we want everybody to have their chance to be heard. And like we mentioned earlier, it is safe sleep week when, you know, whilst we're recording this podcast and we just want to reiterate.
Dr Laura (52:14)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (52:24)
don't take chances with your baby's safety in any way, shape or form. So make sure you are putting them into a safe cot for their sleep, just like you would always fasten their seatbelt in the car. If this is really hard for you, please go to the Red Nose website. They can outline exactly what changes you could make to your baby's sleep environment to ensure they are as safe as possible. And that goes for toddlers and even preschoolers as well. There's heaps of information on there about having things as safe as possible.
Dr Laura (52:44)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (52:53)
If you're struggling to have your baby sleep in a safe sleep environment, get support with that. So Sombelle can help you. There are lots of strategies that are very, very supportive that help your baby quickly adapt to that environment. It's just so important. And finally, we've had so many lovely, lovely emails from our beautiful listeners. If you love listening to this podcast, we would love to have a review from you.
Dr Laura (53:08)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (53:22)
whether it's in the app that you're listening in on, or, you know, I'll tell you what we would love is if you've got a second to just turn on your camera, turn the, um, yeah, the camera on, on your phone, record a little video review, send it to us. We love it and we'll, we'll post it on our pages. Um, we really, really appreciate our listeners. Um,
Dr Laura (53:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, and it does help other people find us. And we know that there's no families are drowning in information and misinformation out there. So we want to be able to light the way to help parents find really sensible evidence based advice. So if you are able to do a little video review for us, then that's going to be really.
Dr Fallon (53:43)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (54:08)
wonderful music to parents is who are trying to trawl through all that misinformation if they can see reviews from families who have used Sombelle and seen really great changes. That's going to help them get the help that they need as well.
Dr Fallon (54:24)
Yeah, it helps our community grow bigger and bigger and means we can offer more things like free webinars and master classes and things like that as well. So yeah, Thank you so much to everybody who has listened in and we hope you all have a wonderful week. If you're heading into the long weekend, like we are, we hope you get lots of rest and relaxation and really special times with your family. So take good care and you'll hear from us again next week.
Dr Laura (54:33)
Yeah.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
