Dr Fallon (00:37)
Hi, and welcome back to another episode of Brand New Little People, the podcast all about early parenting with a particular focus on sleep and settling, because that's what parents really wanna know more about during those first few challenging years of parenting. I'm your host, Dr. Fellen Cook, and I'm here with my co -host, Dr. Laura Conway. How are you going, Laura?
Dr Laura (00:41)
you
Yeah I'm good thank you Fallon, how are you?
Dr Fallon (01:02)
Oh, excellent. I'm so good. I've been busy with renovation, so it's really nice to kind of put down the sledgehammer and put some makeup on and sit down and do something a little bit different.
Dr Laura (01:13)
Oh my goodness, yes, and I think you've managed to shake all the dust out of your hair. I can't see any.
Dr Fallon (01:17)
Good. My work overalls are just over there waiting for me when we finish this. I've got a whole deck to demolish today. So, um, yeah, going from, yes, going from the kind of mental labor to more physical labor, which my body really isn't cut out to handle, but that's a whole other podcast episode. Uh, Laura, when I got up this morning, I, um, I checked social media because that's just what I always do.
Dr Laura (01:23)
Oh my goodness. Yeah, well, you're going to be busy.
Ah!
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (01:45)
And there was a really great post from someone called That Sleep Doc. He's a board certified sleep physician and neurologist over in the US. So if you don't follow him, go and give him a follow because he creates really interesting content around sleep. And there's a couple of others that are really great too. There's Sleep Doctor Mer, like M -E -R, Mer for Meredith, I think her name is, and Sleep Doc Shelby as well. They're really good accounts. Cause I know I've spent a lot of time on here talking about...
Dr Laura (02:07)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (02:13)
the terrible misinformation that's out there and especially in social media. Um, but I think it's important to give you guys some really good accounts to follow where you're going to get really good advice and just really interesting science based content as well. Um, so this video that, um, that sleep doc had recorded, it sort of showed like a, a caption from a parent saying, but I feel really guilty about sleep training. And he had sort of written, um, after that.
There's, you know, this is not about you. It's actually about your baby and that there's no need to feel guilty for doing something that's improving your child's health. And yeah, it's such good messaging. And of course there were, there were so many comments that guy knows how to get engagement when you talk about something like sleep training. Um, it's going to get the clicks up. That's for sure. Um, but like some parents were like, this is so good to hear, you know, sleep training saved our lives.
Dr Laura (02:48)
Yes.
Yeah, so true.
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (03:13)
It's been fantastic. And of course there were a lot of people with very strong negative opinions on what he was saying. But I think it's, it's a really interesting one because I think a lot of our listeners have probably noticed by this point that we never ever use the term sleep training. Not in any of our materials, not in the clinic. We completely avoid it because in Australia, and it's not such a big deal in America and other countries, but for some reason in Australia.
Dr Laura (03:29)
No.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (03:42)
sleep training has these really, really negative connotations. I think a lot of parents hear sleep training and they go, oh, that's cried out. Oh, that's terrible for babies. It's harmful. It's harsh and awful. And so because it's ended up with those sorts of negative connotations, we tend to just steer clear of ever using it. But essentially most, most sensible people are using the term sleep training to describe any kind of action you might be taking to improve your child's sleep.
Dr Laura (03:53)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (04:11)
and that could be taking really fast actions if you're in a really urgent situation, or it could be making very gradual, slow adjustments. It just simply means that you're helping your child get used to falling asleep, usually in their cot and a bit more independently. But my goodness, it's been a very malaligned term.
Dr Laura (04:11)
Mm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yes.
you
Ah, it really has. And yeah, I think that the word training upset some people because they, you know, we hear people saying, well, they're not animals. It's not like training a puppy. Why should I be training my baby? Although interestingly enough, no one gets so upset about the idea of potty training. Yes, it really is a polarizing term. So we just steer clear of it. We talk.
Dr Fallon (04:43)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (04:59)
about supporting our babies and toddlers to get better sleep. And in that way, we're trying to just remove ourselves from that kind of, yeah, those knee jerk reactions that some people have when the term sleep training is used at all. And it's great that that sleep doc is.
Dr Fallon (05:04)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (05:28)
getting out there along with Sleep Doctor Mer and the Sleep Doc Shelby and doing some really excellent evidence -based sensible reels for parents to follow. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (05:37)
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely. And some of the comments were saying, but what's the best approach to use, you know, to help my baby or my toddler sleep. And he was replying and saying, the one that works for you. Like, there's no sort of like, you have to do it this way. There's a million different ways you can do it. And in catering to your own child and how they react and respond and the supports they need is so important because why would you, um,
Dr Laura (05:52)
Yes.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (06:09)
you know, you wouldn't buy them shoes that don't fit because you want their feet to get bigger. You just buy them the shoes that fit. So look at your child and find the right fit for them. But what I really loved in that reel in particular was taking the guilt away from parents. And this is something I find really hard to articulate sometimes when I'm talking to families in the clinic is that I understand you're feeling really challenged as a parent that you've got to make these big changes. And some parents feel like guilty because, oh, I want this.
Dr Laura (06:13)
Yes. Yeah.
you
Dr Fallon (06:37)
I'm wanting better sleep, but I'm supposed to be able to just soldier on, you know, really sleep deprived and maybe I should just do whatever my baby wants me to do. And I often try to explain that it's actually not about you. Sounds terrible. It's not about you, but, but it's actually, it's about your child's health because I mean, look, if you've got really, you know, the minor ups and downs of sleep happening for your child, it's not a big deal. You know, they all have ups and downs.
Dr Laura (06:42)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (07:06)
But most people are coming to us because they've got really ingrained and extremely difficult sleep problems, really excessive night waking hours spent trying to settle their baby. Parents often hanging by a thread. And that's when, you know, your child's sleep health might actually be quite poor. Um, and I think that's a really interesting thing to explore as well is that there is such a thing as sleep health. And it's a really, really important part of the health of every single human.
Dr Laura (07:12)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:36)
Um, you know, we, we know that there's sort of three main pillars of health and wellbeing for humans and there's, you know, nutrition. So eating what you need to eat, getting enough water, there's exercise and just being able to move your body properly. And then there's sleep and sleep's the one that's, you know, sort of neglected a little bit. And I think so many parents, we feel like, um, you know, we, we have to, we have to weather whatever happens.
Dr Laura (07:44)
you
Dr Fallon (08:05)
So some parents will be like, well, I just got a terrible sleeper. This is the path I have to walk. There's nothing I can do about it, which I would definitely challenge the parents that say that because as a parent, you're actually in the driver's seat and you get to make some decisions. And sometimes to improve your child's health, you might have to work hard on their sleep. But similarly, if you've got a child with other kinds of physical health problems, you might have to administer some treatment or do some
Dr Laura (08:14)
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:35)
work exercises with them, they might be things that they really don't enjoy and they really rather not have that injection or whatever else it is that they're needing. But as a parent, you have to do it for their own wellbeing.
Dr Laura (08:36)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. If your child needs to wear a boot and brace because they were born with a club foot, then your baby and growing into a toddler may really not like it. But you as a parent know that it's really important that they do wear that. And...
If you have a child who has, as a baby has problems feeding, latching onto the breast or swallowing. When they, when they move on to having foods, if they're gagging and choking, because they actually have something a little bit wrong with their swallowing reflex or the way that they move food around their mouth, you would seek help for that because that's the, you're taking care of their physical.
Dr Fallon (09:21)
you
Mmm.
Dr Laura (09:41)
being in the instance of a child needing to wear a particular apparatus to correct an issue with one of their limbs. And you also would seek help from a lactation consultant or a speech pathologist or a pediatrician if they're having problems taking in the food that they need, so obtaining all the nutrients that they need. But somehow, somewhere along the way,
it's become a taboo subject to talk about that third pillar of health. So addressing the third pillar of health, if there are problems there. So no one would ever say to a parent, oh, well, feeding problems, that's just a rite of passage. Or, oh, your child isn't rolling yet and they're nine months. Nevermind, it will happen sooner. No one would ever say that. And no one would ever say to a parent, oh, that's really rubbish that you're -
Dr Fallon (10:22)
Mm.
Mmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (10:35)
you're seeking help for that because that would just come naturally. That's not something you can teach. But somehow that has come into play very strongly in some quarters with regards to sleep health. And then that totally minimizes for parents the importance of sleep. It's like, okay, we accept that it is really important that your child is having all the nutrients they...
Dr Fallon (10:41)
Yes.
Dr Laura (11:04)
that they need and we accept that it's important to address any final gross motor physical milestones that they're not yet able, they haven't yet met. But yeah, well, with sleep, well, just suck it up. It's almost verging on it for those children who have persistent sleep problems that could be resolved.
Dr Fallon (11:18)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:34)
It's verging on being a little bit shy of a parenting role when it comes to that part of your child's health. And as parents, we don't need to be shy about addressing our children's needs. And it's really important that as parents, you understand that it's absolutely your role to ensure that your baby and toddler.
is developing well in all of those areas. And you don't need to be shy about it or feel guilty about it because actually you're doing the best thing by saying, first of all, recognizing that waking up eight to 10 times a night or taking three hours to go to sleep at the start of the night actually isn't normal. And it's not something that is just going to resolve on its own. And actually,
Dr Fallon (12:07)
you
Yeah.
Dr Laura (12:30)
looking at what sensible evidence -based approaches there are out there that you can use that are going to support you and your child is really a responsible thing to do.
Dr Fallon (12:39)
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think when there are people saying things like, oh, you know, they all sleep eventually and let the fatigue just rest lightly on you and all of this sort of nonsense. I really dislike how that usually means more labor for women in particular. Not always, of course, but so often it just, it makes mothers feel like, okay, well, I can't talk about this difficulty I'm having.
Dr Laura (13:09)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:09)
And rather than opening up about something that's really challenging for them that might be taking them to a really frightening, scary place mentally, they're then thinking, well, I just have to shut up and put up with it. And there's no way out of this. Um, and that's just isolating. Yeah. Yeah. And yet absolutely not. Absolutely not. So yeah, look, let's think about, you know, what is sleep health for babies and toddlers?
Dr Laura (13:21)
Yeah, yeah. And I'm being selfish if I do something about it. Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:35)
Um, and, and what would low sleep health look like? So I reckon a lot of parents already know what sort of poor sleep health looks like. Cause you're probably tuning into this feeling like your own sleep health might be a little bit compromised at the moment. Um, what you're looking for in your baby or toddler is sort of really persistent grumpiness. You know, there's every baby and toddler should have a period of being happily awake each time they're awake before they get grumpy and ready for sleep. Um, but if they're just always cranky, um, that's a good sign.
Dr Laura (13:46)
Yes.
you
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:04)
And for toddlers in particular, you'll often see difficulties with clumsiness, trouble learning new skills. And often I think parents see it in difficulty adjusting to new environments. When there's a lot of new information they've got to process, if they're really chronically tired, that's going to be really, really challenging. Often their nights are really disrupted with lots of wakeups. And that usually means that they haven't developed that ability to settle themselves off to sleep.
Dr Laura (14:08)
Hmm.
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (14:34)
that often waking up and needing some help to get back to sleep. And often that means they're just simply not getting into the really deeper stages of sleep and they might not be getting as much time in deep sleep as they need to. Another yardstick I think we can judge sleep health by simply how exhausted parents are. We expect little babies to wake up a lot and for parents to be tired but if your baby's no longer a little baby,
Dr Laura (14:44)
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (14:58)
you know, they've gotten past that six month mark or it may be even entered toddlerhood. You should be starting to get better rest as a parent and you know, you'll have your off days, but yeah, you shouldn't be completely exhausted every day. Um, and I think another really important thing is that it's a lot, there's been a lot of focus in the last few years on babies and toddlers getting enough sleep and meeting this sort of sleep requirement that's based on their age. But what we sort of starting to see more and more in the science is that.
Dr Laura (14:58)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (15:27)
sleep health is more about having longer stretches of consolidated sleep. And we're seeing that it's about the number of disruptions to night sleep in particular, that tends to be related to toddlers in particular having a trickier time learning and developing and that sort of thing. So would you add anything to that, Laura?
Dr Laura (15:39)
Mm.
you
Yeah, I last year went to a professional development day run by Tony Atwood, who's a psychologist, I believe, in Queensland. And he talked about how when we go to sleep, sleep has that really important function of helping process.
Dr Fallon (16:08)
you
Dr Laura (16:17)
emotions and lay down memories from the day. And he had this lovely analogy of a whiteboard where he said, in the day your baby and toddlers, when they're awake, they are having positive and negative and neutral experiences all during the day. And there's different color pen all over the whiteboard. So there might be some red pen from when they got frustrated and angry, and there might be some green pen from when they were really happy and different shapes all across the whiteboard.
And at the end of the day, they go to sleep and the sleep comes in like an eraser across the whiteboard. And it takes all of those emotions and processes them and takes all the memories and lays them down in the right areas of the brain. And then the day starts afresh with a clean whiteboard. And what can happen when sleep is fragmented is that the sleep isn't able to do its job. It can't fully...
Dr Fallon (17:09)
that.
Dr Laura (17:15)
that whiteboard. And so the next day, your babies or toddlers are waking up and there's still some residual red and there's still some residual green from the previous day. And that is a great analogy, isn't it? So good. And so that means then that the emotions and experiences from the day before are colouring the experience that your babies and toddlers are having the next day. And I think it works really well for toddlers in particular.
Dr Fallon (17:16)
Hmm
Mmm. I love that. Yeah, it's really good.
Mm.
Dr Laura (17:45)
When we think about how you've just described that one sign of low sleep health is finding it difficult to adjust to new environments or new experiences. Because if you've still got some residual frustrations left over from something that you did the day before, of course that's going to colour how you were able to cope with a new experience the next day. And this can accumulate.
Dr Fallon (18:11)
Yes, yes. It's so much like, you know, as a parent, your child has a terrible night of sleep and then you've got to go to work and you've got some professional development thing or excuse me, a meeting with your boss and they're trying to give you some complicated instruction on a new project or something and you're just thinking, I can't process this. So you're madly taking notes thinking, I'll try and catch up on it later.
Dr Laura (18:21)
Yes.
Yes! Yeah.
Dr Fallon (18:36)
Yeah, I think as adults, we can understand that concept really well. Yeah, that is such a great analogy. And I think it's probably pretty obvious what good sleep health looks like. You're going to see that your baby or toddler has periods of time where they're well rested and they're really wanting to engage with you, wanting to engage with the world around them. Usually they are having those longer stretches of consolidated sleep. But importantly, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily sleeping through the night. I think every parent's looking for the Holy Grail of sleeping through the night. night.
Dr Laura (18:42)
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (19:07)
It's okay if they're still waking up sometimes. It's really, they can have good sleep health and still wake. It's just not waking excessively where it is impacting their mood and other areas of development. So yeah, probably we could wrap up this discussion by just saying that if you feel, you know, you've listening today and you're thinking, oh gosh, my baby or my toddler does have some signs that maybe their sleep health isn't super great. There's no need to panic because babies and toddlers,
Dr Laura (19:12)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (19:35)
so resilient and so adaptable and the very fact that you're listening into this is a really good sign that you feel like you're in a place where you might be ready to make some changes to help support them to have better sleep. There's lots of different ways you can support them towards better sleep and like that sleep doc said, it's about just finding the approach that works for you and when you find that approach you're really likely to find that their sleep improves very quickly. Even, you know, I often think about this even with the absolute most
Dr Laura (19:56)
Yeah.
you
Dr Fallon (20:04)
challenging sleep cases we see in the clinic and some of them are truly horrendous. You know, waking 10 or more times per night. Parents have tried every service that's out there. Once we kind of figure out what the right approach is and look at the circadian rhythm, it can only be one or two weeks and things are improving. You know, often it's less than a week and things are already starting to show improvement. So, yeah, if you're feeling like you're really stuck and your child's sleep health is low,
Dr Laura (20:11)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (20:33)
It is possible to really quickly turn that around for them, but also for you as well. Yeah.
Dr Laura (20:36)
Mmm.
Yeah, definitely. All right, shall we move on to our parents questions, Fallon? Okay, so we had a email from Clemency and she said, thank you so much for the fantastic course. It's been a source of immense comfort for me in the sea of advice out there. Oh, that's good to hear Clemency. She says, my beautiful six month old was once a natural cot settler.
Dr Fallon (20:45)
Yeah, yep, good idea.
you
Yeah.
Dr Laura (21:07)
but we've somehow slipped into me feeding her to sleep. My partner and I will shortly embark on one of your settling approaches, but we've been having trouble choosing which one. Oh, well, this is just really appropriate, isn't it, given what we've just been talking about. So Clemency says, this is mainly because she gets very hyperactive at bedtime, both whilst we're doing our nighttime routine.
Dr Fallon (21:21)
Yeah!
Dr Laura (21:32)
and nearly always when we place her in the cot, even if she's beautifully relaxed and wound down. We've tried switching her bedtime earlier and later, playing with her daytime sleep, and it doesn't seem to make much difference. It's as if the bed is a trigger for her to get the sillies, which is very cute, but not very conducive to sleep. Oh, God, yes, I hear you.
Dr Fallon (21:44)
you
Hehehehehe
Dr Laura (21:59)
So Clemency says, do you have any insight into what might be going on for her and any advice on how we might calm her down or which settling technique you would recommend in this instance? She's generally too active for any bum patting. So we were thinking about the supported accelerated approach, but when I've tried leaving her, she just doesn't seem to calm down and eventually will get upset. Ah, yeah.
Dr Fallon (22:17)
Such a great question. I think the first thing my mind goes to, is definitely the timing side of things. So what I'd be thinking is check to make sure you've got the same wake up time every day, the same bedtime every day, naps roughly happening in a similar order. When Clemency says they've tried, you know,
less sorry, an earlier bedtime and a later bedtime, you need to have tried those for a whole week of just keeping it steady for a week because that's how long it takes for a circadian rhythm to adjust and for sleep pressure to kind of adjust itself as well. So I'd probably be having a close look at the sleep diary and make sure that you're catering exactly to her sleep needs. You can work through that unique sleep needs chapter because if you kind of, if you start by having that
Dr Laura (22:57)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (23:10)
really predictable wake up time, really predictable bedtime. She's not overdoing it for the naps. It makes it a lot easier to figure out what is the point at which we can put her down where she will go to sleep pretty quickly without getting the sillies because they will, you know, if all those timing variables are held steady, then at night at the same time, pretty much every night, she should have this big peak in sleep pressure that then makes it much easier to get her off to sleep. Um, so I'd be thinking about that, that daily rhythm. You might just need to tie.
Dr Laura (23:18)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:39)
things up a little bit and that could really, really help. In terms of advice to calm her down, I mean, look, the timing side of things should definitely help. But I agree, I think the really busy ones can often just not handle the slow approaches where, you know, we suggest a lot of patting and reassurance to help them adjust to cot settling. They're just too active, they roll around all over the place, becomes really hard. I'd say that supported accelerated approach would be a great idea.
Dr Laura (23:49)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (24:09)
You don't have to leave the room. If she finds that really upsetting, you can just sit right beside the cot and, um, you know, keep giving her that reassurance. Um, and if she does sort of roll around and get out of position, then, um, at the end, if you're doing this really brief intervals between your pats then you'll just reach over, put her back in position and then start again. So pretty quickly they realize there's not a lot of point in rolling around and being too silly because mom or dad or whoever the caregiver is.
Dr Laura (24:09)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (24:37)
we'll just keep doing the same very boring repetitive thing. That's often a good approach for the ones who are very busy.
Dr Laura (24:41)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I'd also suggest thinking about bath time as a place where your daughter can get her sillies out clemency. So we think about using water.
to help with some of the down regulation because children can really love that sensory input with the splashing. And so don't think about using the bath time as a calming part of the evening. Think about it as a place for your daughter to get rid of those sillies and have that lovely one -on -one time with you as well. Because something else that occurred to me when I read your question, Clemency, is that perhaps it's a lovely time for your daughter.
Dr Fallon (25:25)
you
Dr Laura (25:30)
when she lies down in her cot at bedtime, she's got your undivided attention and she's loving it and being very cute. And that's a really nice time for her to connect with mum or dad. So think about, yeah, once you've got the timing right, think about having a nice bath time where you can let her get all her sillies out, have that beautiful interaction with you at the end of the day. She can be really cute in the bath and on getting out of the bath.
get her sillies out and then think about helping her calm and get her into the cot and do one of the quicker approaches. So she's not getting really wound up and excited about you continually patting her, for example, because that might just, if she's a FOMO baby, she might be trying to grab your hands, trying to climb up your arm, doing all kinds of things. And we want her to just know, actually, it's boring once you get into the cot, and it's just sleep time.
Dr Fallon (26:15)
Yeah.
You
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's really good advice. I often say to parents that bath time is not relaxing until they move out of home and get a job. Then they'll come home and want a nice relaxing bath, but while they're children, no, it's game on. Bath time is fun time. It's play time. So yeah, keep her really busy. She might need just a little bit more physical fatigue to really settle down at bedtime.
Dr Laura (26:42)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm, yeah.
Dr Fallon (26:55)
That was a great question, Clemency, let us know how you go. We also had Holly email in with some questions about her 13 month old. Holly says her daughter has been self settling in her cot since around December after using the Sombelle program. Which is great. She says, but she's recently bumped into a few hurdles with sleep. So her daughter started childcare a month ago and attends four days each week. She's having longer naps at childcare and has started to wake one or two times a day. day.
Dr Laura (27:02)
Hmm.
Great.
Dr Fallon (27:25)
each night. When she's at home with mum she's started to refuse to fall asleep in her cot by herself but if her dad does the nap settling then she self settles no problem at all. She's having two naps each day and has woken at 5 30 a .m a few times recently. She's exhausted by bedtime and self settles easily at this time. So Holly wonders if the recent hot nights might be causing her to wake overnight.
if the longer day naps at childcare are having an impact on the nights, whether there could be some separation anxiety or if it's just.
Dr Laura (27:58)
Mm.
Yes, at 13 months of age, your daughter is right in the zone for dropping from one nap, from two naps, beg your pardon, down to the one. You're describing that she's having longer naps at daycare. So I suspect there's a few things going on. One, she may actually be ready to drop down to the one nap. The other thing is that being in childcare,
Dr Fallon (28:26)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (28:33)
four days a week will be really stimulating, lots going on, and she may well be a little bit more tired than usual, which is why when she's at daycare, she's having a little bit longer for her naps. But what you're then starting to see is the effects of that. She's starting the day early from 5 .30. And when we think about what the signs are for dropping a nap, one of them is...
consistently waking early in the morning when your baby or toddler hadn't done that before. So I would be as a very first step looking at her sleep diary and looking to see if you want to try to keep the two naps for the time being, just make sure perhaps she only has an hour and a half total daytime sleep or two hours. Obviously, Holly, I don't know what your child's sleep needs are. And then you split that across the two naps.
and see if that helps her maintain her sleep into the morning. Beyond 5 .30, any morning time that doesn't have a six in front of it is just pretty revolting for most families. And try that first. And then if you're finding that even with the two naps that are curtailed at a total amount of sleep, then I would switch to moving her to just the one nap.
And you might find then that she then has much longer between waking up from her nap and going to bed at bedtime to build really high sleep pressure that will enable her to maintain her sleep until a reasonable time in the morning. Yeah, so because she's waking one to two times a night now, which is in all possibly due to...
Dr Fallon (30:11)
Yeah, with f -
Dr Laura (30:22)
the sleep pressure not being high enough at the start of the night to be able to maintain her sleep for those long periods of time. Yeah, did you have anything else to add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (30:31)
Yeah, I think it's the case for a lot of families where you have to have a bit of a conversation with childcare just to explain that nights are starting to become challenging due to too much day sleep. Most childcare centers will get on board if they do need to wake a baby or a toddler up a little bit earlier. I would also think too, separation anxiety relevant to Holly, probably not the dad, but to Holly.
could be present as well because she's self settling for her dad at nap time with no problem at all, but just doesn't want to do it with mum. So that's really common around that time of starting childcare. Sometimes separation anxiety does begin. It could be that you use something like the supported accelerated approach where you're just sitting nearby, sort of, you might be in the room, she can still see you, but you're going to sit there and just close your eyes, take slow deep breaths, kind of set that example of, you know, this is sleep time.
Dr Laura (30:57)
Mmm.
Mmm. Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (31:26)
But you're not leaving the room constantly. So if it's separation anxiety and you're coming and going from her room all the time, that can just keep re -triggering that anxiety. So you might need to just sit there and wait a little while. So it's definitely something to consider. The hot nights could be part of it. I know we've had some cooler nights recently. So Holly, you will have to have a think about whether she slept better on those cooler nights.
Dr Laura (31:33)
Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.
Dr Fallon (31:52)
Yes, I think there's sort of a few different variables to consider there. Definitely, I think there's a first step, trim down those day sleeps at childcare that could make a really big difference. You're doing a great job, Holly. Let us know how you go.
Dr Laura (32:03)
Yeah.
All right, so then we had an email from Kassie. So Kassie wrote in and said, first, I just want to say a huge thank you to the Sombelle program and podcast. It's given me confidence when it comes to my baby's sleep. She's 16 weeks. And we have been following your program from 11 weeks. Oh, that's great to hear Kassie. And you were just on top of this from very early on. So well done, you. I'm delighted that you found us when your baby was so little.
Dr Fallon (32:17)
you
Yeah.
Yeah. Yay! I love it when we hear that. Isn't it life -changing when parents just go, oh, I don't have to worry about sitting in that dark room for hours. Yes. Fantastic.
Dr Laura (32:36)
She says, because of you both, I was able to drop my overtired baby fears and rid myself of hours of nap settling because she didn't fit the recommended schedule for her age. Oh, thank heavens. Yay.
Yes. Yeah. And Kassie says that she's finally got some time back in the evening to actually talk to her partner. Just thinking of all those, all those relationships we're helping out there, Fallon. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (33:03)
Oh yay! That's fantastic.
Yeah, yeah, we're going to become marriage counselors soon enough. But it's so, it's so important. That's why I think we can't underscore how, undersell rather how, how important sleep is because if you're not getting the chance to talk to your partner and your relationship starts to really suffer, that of course has so many flow on effects on so many other aspects of that sort of family dynamic. So yes, yet another reason to work on sleep if you're having trouble.
Dr Laura (33:28)
Mmm.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. So Kathy says, after implementing your recommended changes, my daughter has gone from being held for two hours at bedtime to settling happily in the cot. She was previously waking six to sometimes hourly overnight to just two to three times to feed. Oh, so good.
Dr Fallon (33:58)
And that's really normal for a baby of that age to still wake a couple of times. That's fine.
Dr Laura (34:01)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she says an area that I'm now hoping to improve are her naps. Generally she starts the day around six or 630 and bedtime is between seven and 730. She settles quickly and with no real support from me for her naps. She is a serial catnapper though on four naps a day lasting 35 to 45 minutes. And she generally manages one hour 45 minutes to two hours awake.
between naps and two hours before bed. Kassie says, I know babies generally are on three naps a day at this age, but how am I meant to get her to this when she takes such short naps? She has been a catnapper from very early on, rarely will resettle. For the first time over the weekend, she did two sleep cycles. I was very excited, as you can imagine. Yeah, I can. She did a 20 minute nap in the car in the morning, two hours awake, and then the longer nap.
Dr Fallon (34:41)
you
Mmm.
Dr Laura (35:02)
She's yet to do this again. Does this suggest she needs more awake time? She is usually very cranky and upset when I put her down and settles quickly, so I'm nervous pushing her awake times out. Most awake times she is generally happy, but does seem tired and cranky between the second and third nap. Oh, what a great email. So many good questions there.
Dr Fallon (35:19)
Yeah, it really is. Yeah, and I think it really illustrates something important and that is if your baby is what we call a chronic catnapper, they just have their little nap and they're ready to power on, then often they do have more naps for a little bit longer than other babies who would be having longer naps. So the fact that she's having sort of four catnaps a day is not actually a problem in and of itself.
Dr Laura (35:38)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (35:44)
pretty normal for them to have a little bit of crankiness at some point during the day too. So I'm not too worried about that. Um, so I think you've got a decision to make Kassie you could carry on as you are and, um, you know, just keep going with catnaps. She'll eventually drop down to three when she's ready. Um, or if you're really keen to have longer naps, then you could totally have a try. Like you've, you've got that little bit of evidence on that, that day when she had a very short first nap and a bit more time away, she did have a couple of sleep cycles linked together.
Dr Laura (35:50)
Mm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (36:14)
So if you did decide to just try to push for three naps, it might be that she naturally makes one of those naps a little bit longer. So I don't think there's a clear right or wrong. I think if you really wanted to have a go at three naps, try it for an entire week and see if she can adapt. Don't just do it for one day and then go, oh, that was horrible. Try to commit to it for a week to really let her body have that chance to adapt to that pattern. But if you just think, you know what, I can't be bothered rocking the boat. I just want to keep going with this.
Dr Laura (36:28)
Yeah.
you
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (36:43)
That's perfectly fine. It's a bit of a myth that babies need to have really long day naps. Not all of them do. And if she's mostly happy during the day, then she's fine.
Dr Laura (36:48)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think that's great advice, Fallon. What we would find is that as her wake windows, as they're sometimes known, get a bit longer, that will drive up her sleep pressure. And so that means that she's more likely for one of those naps to actually link a sleep cycle. And so if you do decide to try it, Kassie, then...
know that she will be a bit cranky as you keep her awake for a little bit longer, maybe between the second and third nap might be the one that you try is the longer wake window. I wouldn't try to do it for that first one in the morning. That's often the shortest amount of time babies can manage being awake. Sleep pressure will be a bit higher. And so she might then link her sleep cycle for one of those naps. It sounds like you're doing a wonderful job, Kassie.
Dr Fallon (37:19)
you
Hmm.
Dr Laura (37:45)
I think that's a really a good news story. The night sound brilliant. So keep going with the catnaps if you want to for the next few weeks and see if it comes about naturally, but otherwise, yeah, like Fallon says, just give it a go, kind of force the issue if you like, but do it for a whole week before you say it's not working. And then the other thing you can do if you find that it's hard, you're trying for the three naps, you're nearly there, but not,
Dr Fallon (38:13)
you
Dr Laura (38:15)
quiet, she just can't quite manage it. Remember that you've always got that power nap option up your sleeve in the afternoon. So she's mostly doing three naps, but she's sometimes struggling to make it until bedtime. Then you can give her a 15 or 20 minute power nap just later in the afternoon, just to get her through until bedtime. And then that will fall away. The need for that will fall away.
Dr Fallon (38:22)
Hmm.
Yeah, and if you find that with the power nap, she's really hard to settle at bedtime, it could be that you don't offer the power nap, but you bring bedtime slightly earlier to help her manage the three naps. Yeah, it's really good question. I'm really glad you emailed us, Kassie. So let us know how it all goes. Laura Samantha also emailed us with some questions about her five and a half month old baby boy. She says they decided to use the slow fade approach and are on step two of this approach.
Dr Laura (38:46)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (39:06)
Samantha also describes that he sleeps for around 11 and a half hours total each day. So he's definitely a low sleep needs baby. And there is some variability in his bedtime and wake up time. So first up, Samantha says his naps are so varied. For three months, he would be rocked to sleep in their arms and then he would only nap one sleep cycle in his bassinet. Since moving him to his own room and a cot,
Dr Laura (39:08)
you
Yeah.
Thank you.
Dr Fallon (39:33)
He has been doing a great job at settling in his cot, sometimes linking two or three sleep cycles. She's great. She says, if he doesn't self settle between sleep cycles, he gets very worked up and she feels that she cannot settle him back to sleep. He is always happy to see her even when he is obviously still tired. She says that he's a very active FOMO baby.
Dr Laura (39:33)
Mm -hmm.
Oh.
Yes.
Hmm.
Oh.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (39:58)
He did only move from a co -sleeper bassinet to his big cot in his own room last weekend. So she says it also hasn't been very long since they started step two of the slow fade approach. So that's where you're, you've moved onto patting and humming your baby to sleep in their cot. So she asks, should she persist with resettling him back to sleep for his naps through the crying and tears, or just let him be a bit tired and hope that he links sleep cycles for his next nap?
Dr Laura (40:10)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, I would say just get him up. He's got a very low sleep need for a baby his age, which means that we've got to be really careful about how we budget that sleep across the day and the night. If he's waking up after one sleep cycle, and he's happy to see you when you come in, just get the little fella up. We have to be really careful when we have...
Dr Fallon (40:28)
What do you think?
you
Dr Laura (40:54)
babies that have such low sleep needs to ensure that they're not having so much daytime sleep that they blow the budget and it starts to impact nighttime sleep. Because then the nights will become much more challenging. I'd also probably look at moving him to two day naps quite soon. Because although he's not quite in that window of somewhere between six and seven months when babies do generally move down to two naps,
Dr Fallon (41:04)
Yes.
Dr Laura (41:23)
because he's got low sleep needs, he's likely to make that transition a bit earlier than others. And then just that step of moving him to the two naps, that will mean that he has longer wake windows before he goes down for his naps, like I was saying, in response to...
Dr Fallon (41:28)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (41:44)
Kassie's question just now, he'll have slightly higher sleep pressure when you pop him down for his nap, which means that it's more likely that one of those naps will become a bit longer. Yeah, and also thinking about Samantha, you said that there can be a bit of variability in his bedtime and wake up times. And I would really.
Dr Fallon (41:53)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (42:10)
think about what is going to be a bedtime and a wake up that is in line with his sleep needs and that you as a family are going to be able to stick to. Because having a really regular wake up time each morning, which that's what's within your control and a regular time that you're aiming to pop him down into his cot at night, is going to help those naps then fall into a more predictable rhythm.
Dr Fallon (42:11)
you
Dr Laura (42:37)
I think Fallon, I just described to you earlier an analogy I started to use in the clinic about building sleep pressure. And it's like having a, thinking of sleep pressure as having a bucket that you're filling with water. And we want the sleep pressure to be really high. We want the bucket to be full when baby goes to bed at night. If sometimes we're not keeping a really predictable wake up time in the morning, it's like poking a hole in the bottom of the bucket.
because then the sleep pressure is just eking out. And so if Samantha, your baby sometimes sleeps in for an extra hour, for example, in the morning, that's just going to mean that his sleep pressure isn't high enough for him to go to sleep at a predictable time for his nap. And then the naps can really start to move around more than you would like during the day. So, yeah.
Dr Fallon (43:07)
um
you
Yeah, absolutely. I like that analogy, Laura. I often sort of say to parents that when you have the same wake up time every morning and the same bedtime, then during the day, sleep pressure is kind of ebbing and flowing at a predictable time every day. So it really helps parents to kind of really nail that time. You know, often when bedtime and wake up time are predictable, parents start to say things like, oh yeah, now I know at 11 a .m.
Dr Laura (43:40)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (43:57)
Like they're really ready for a nap. And if I put them down, then it's usually pretty easy settled. So it becomes a whole lot easier to know when they're actually needing their naps. Um, yeah, so I think that's a really important thing to think about. And I would say just with a low sleep needs baby, um, and him sort of needing around about 11 and a half hours of sleep. Like you've said, Laura, I think about it like an 11 and a half hour kind of budget. We don't want him to spend too much of the budget in the day and then not have much sleep left to do overnight.
Dr Laura (44:02)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (44:25)
that can create a lot of wake ups. And also if he has a really tricky night, that's why we say get them up on time anyway, because we want to show his circadian rhythm. You can't do that. You can't wake up 10 times overnight or however many times because you won't have time to meet your sleep budget. You've got to get up on time and you're still not going to have, you know, super long day naps. You're not going to have a super early bedtime. So just maintaining that predictability can kind of keep, keep the circadian rhythm in check.
Dr Laura (44:27)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Samantha has a second part to her question, Fallon, where she says, she's also finding it very difficult to not breastfeed her baby back to sleep overnight. When she tries to unlatch him, he cries and it never seems like there's a moment when he's full and satisfied.
Dr Fallon (44:58)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (45:14)
He is still feeding very often, every three to four hours during the day and night, and is on solid food too. She would like some advice from us on how to stop feeding him to sleep during the night.
Dr Fallon (45:26)
Yeah, it's a really good question. I would say those changes to the daily schedule are really likely to increase nighttime sleep pressure, which sometimes means they drop night feeds all on their own accord because they're prioritizing sleep over feeding. And he's certainly feeding quite a lot. And I know Samantha also mentioned in her email that she's got really good supply. So there's no lack of milk there. He's also on solids as well. For some babies, they...
Dr Laura (45:37)
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (45:54)
become really irritated if we try to finish a feed when they still would like to stay on there and keep suckling and suckling. So some parents will say that it's easier to drop a feed, you know, than to try and finish a feed early. So it could be Samantha that you decide, I'm just thinking about his age, maybe you'll decide, okay, I'm going to feed him twice overnight. You'll come up with a rough time of night where you'll offer a feed if he wakes up.
Dr Laura (46:01)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (46:21)
That's sometimes a better way to go to just sort of commit to a certain number of feeds. If he wakes up and he's not due for the feed, don't offer it. Just work on using that same approach to resettle him. Because sometimes resettling without the feed can be easier than trying to finish the feed early to get him back down awake. But I also think as well that you sound very confident Samantha that he's not really hungry. You know, he's had a really good feed. He's probably just quite cranky thinking,
Dr Laura (46:30)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (46:50)
don't take me off the boob, I'm very happy and settled here. If your priority is to have him self settling in his cot, then it is okay to say, okay, I know he's fed, he's safe, he's comfortable, he's warm, he's okay. It's fine for me to now pat him off to sleep in his cot. So if that's really your aim, I would say it's okay to kind of call it, go, okay, he's had a good enough feed. It's time to be back in the cot.
And even if he's a bit cranky about it, he'll soon realize, oh, this is fine. My mom's still here. I'm still getting lots of hands on support. I'm still loved. You know, everything's okay. And soon he will, you know, resettle much more easily for you.
Dr Laura (47:15)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, be brave, Samantha. When he consistently sees that he's, excuse me, he's had that nice feed. And then when mum says, okay, that's it, time's up. I know that you're fed enough. And he then knows that that happens. He goes into the cot and he's patted off to sleep. Then he's going to go, okay, well, that's, that's what happens. And that's perfectly normal. I know I'm going to get my fill and then mum.
decide when it's time for that to end and then she's going to put me in my cot and then have her hands on me until I'm asleep. If sometimes what happens is that he complains and you put him back on and other times he complains and you don't put him back on, then he's going to think, oh, well, I'm just going to keep on complaining because sometimes mum puts me back on. And that can be a bit confusing for little babies. When he sees that when mum takes me off and latches me, that's the end.
Dr Fallon (48:01)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (48:28)
then he will quite quickly then learn and just be happy with that. It's that inconsistency, I think, Fallon, that is the biggest, can be one of the biggest impediments to making the progress because the babies think, well, sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. So I'm just going to keep on asking to go back on.
Dr Fallon (48:28)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I would say too, our advice would be different if Samantha said weight gain's been really poor. He doesn't seem to feed very well. He's not interested in his solid foods. Um, you know, he's never seems to be satisfied. Then I would say, you know, if you're having any of those difficulties with feeding, always talk to your GP or your lactation consultant or your health nurse. Um,
Dr Laura (48:56)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (49:13)
because there are some babies that have a physiological reason for needing to feed more overnight. And we would never suggest trying to reduce feeds or cut those feeds short if you know they're having trouble gaining weight or they're unwell or something like that. So it's definitely as with all of the advice on here, it is general in nature. So if you're having difficulties and you think something's a bit off, you have a chat to your GP because it always helps I think for parents to be able to rule out.
Dr Laura (49:25)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (49:40)
that there's not something more going on. It's really important to do that. Great. Well, it's been another really interesting podcast and I hope our listeners are really enjoying it. I want to really thank those parents who have dropped us a five -star review in the podcast apps. It really, really helps. It helps other parents get to know that we're out here and that we're a safe place to come and learn more about sleep without all the emotional baggage that sometimes comes with sleep.
Dr Laura (50:08)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (50:09)
And a huge welcome. We've had a whole lot of new members who have joined us and we're really excited to get your questions and to answer them on here. So if you've recently signed up and you're facing some sleep challenges, do send in your questions. We would love to hear them and love to answer them. What other news do we have Laura? I don't think there's too much news this week. Oh, I was going to say that we might not be doing the video component of the podcast over the next one to two weeks. So if you've been watching along on YouTube,
subscribe to us on one of your podcast apps and listen in there. I'm having some surgery, which just means I might want to be off camera and calling in from my pajamas. And I will not be bothered doing hair and makeup and all the rest. So we might take a bit of a break from the video. Let's see how I'm going. Who knows? You never know. Yes. Bring out those Ugg boots, Laura.
Dr Laura (50:48)
Hahaha!
Yeah, yeah. Well, I get to have a break from it too. So yes. Oh, well, I hope that your surgery goes well, Fallon. And I'm sure that all of our listeners as well will be sending you their good wishes and hoping that you recover really quickly so that you can get back on board doing coaching calls. I will be doing more.
Dr Fallon (51:10)
Thank you.
Thank you. Yes.
Dr Laura (51:24)
coaching calls. How we have divided the kind of work recently is that I've been mainly seeing families in clinic, either in my Melbourne clinic or over telehealth. And Fallon has been taking the lead on the coaching calls for the Sombelle members. Whilst Fallon is recovering from her surgery, I will be taking on some of the coaching calls as well. So if you have recently joined Sombelle, you've
Dr Fallon (51:50)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (51:54)
Worked your way through the modules, you've devised your action plan and perhaps you're like one of the people who wrote in today to say they just can't quite decide which approach to take or they want to double check the timing and the number of naps. Then do book in for a coaching call. You can ordinarily get one in about a week or so, sometimes less in advance.
Dr Fallon (52:17)
you
Yeah.
Dr Laura (52:22)
So make a booking and you can have a chat with me and then Fallon when she's better.
Dr Fallon (52:26)
Yes. It's such a good idea. I keep getting feedback from parents who I've done the coaching calls with where they're saying, I had all these uncertainties and within that 25 minute call, it was all ironed out. I knew exactly what I needed to do. And then a week later, sleep is solved. So not everyone needs a coaching call, but if you've got a particularly challenging sleep problem, it's just a really quick way to get a clear answer. Um, and then it's sorted. And I think they're great too, because to see us in clinic,
I think we're both booked out until about May now, aren't we? April, May. It's a long time anyway. Yeah. So it's much quicker. Yeah. It's much quicker to join Sombelle Start to think about what kind of approaches you like. You know, you learn a lot about sleep and settling and your own baby's sleep needs. Um, you could see Laura, I mean, at the time of recording, I think you've got a few available in like three or four days. So it's really, it's a great quick option for people who want to make progress quickly. Join Sombelle, book a coaching call.
Dr Laura (52:58)
Yeah, end of, yeah, about six weeks for me, maybe longer.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (53:24)
And you can get things sorted really quickly. So I'm really glad that we can offer those sort of last minute appointments. Because some families can't wait until May. May's far too long away. Yeah.
Dr Laura (53:26)
Mmm.
Yeah. It's a long way off. Yeah. And we, Fallon and I, just have seen and helped, there'll be thousands of families now, Fallon, wouldn't it? That we can look at a sleep diary, look at your action plan, and we can just hone in very quickly where the issues are and really help you hit the ground running.
Dr Fallon (53:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (53:58)
So you've got our backing. And of course you can also send us questions to the podcast, but many families do really benefit from having that one -on -one touch point with us as well. So we're here for you. So don't forget that people.
Dr Fallon (54:11)
Yeah, definitely. We sure are. Thanks for tuning in everyone and you'll hear from us again next week. Bye!
Dr Laura (54:19)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
