Dr Fallon (00:38)
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a particular focus on sleep and settling in those first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. And Laura, questions about naps have been coming through thick and fast, haven't they? I mean, we hear this from parents all the time when we see them in clinic. Um, but we've definitely had quite a few emails this week from parents who were like, help me with naps. It's not going well.
Dr Laura (01:06)
Yes. Yes. Well, I think because parents, you go into parenthood knowing that sleep potentially is going to be an issue for you with a little baby. But as adults, we're generally thinking of sleep as nighttime, aren't we? Because that's what we do. And then when you have a baby, you're like, oh my goodness. No, it's during the day. And when your baby isn't sleeping well during the day, it means it's just really hard to get anything done.
Dr Fallon (01:16)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (01:33)
to organize your day, to sign up to the baby swimming programs, or just go and catch up with your mum for lunch or anything like that. It makes it really, really tricky. So I think it's a stress that can take some parents by surprise. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (01:34)
It is.
Hmm.
Oh, definitely. And just when parents think they've got it figured out and they're like, great, we've got this awesome sort of rhythm happening. And I know what I'm doing now with the naps. Then they get that little bit older and they need to drop a nap. It's maddening for so many parents. So I thought, Laura, do you want to tell us what are the sort of key signs that parents should be looking out for to know that their baby is ready to drop a nap?
Dr Laura (02:03)
YEEESSSS
Yeah, absolutely. So these signs are the same for whether you've got a baby on five naps dropping down to four, on two naps dropping down to one or dropping the naps all together. So what we generally look for are a combination of four signs. So the first sign is that your baby can start to take a long time to settle for their naps during the day. So they may previously have been going to sleep within about 10 minutes or so.
And now, particularly the last nap of the day, they're taking much longer to go to sleep. Sometimes they might skip it altogether. If they do have that last nap of the day, what can then start to happen is that they start to take a long time to go to sleep at the start of the night. So the naps might be okay, but the start of the night begins to be a bit protracted. And so if your baby had been going into the cot nice and easily, going to sleep within 10, 15 minutes or less,
Dr Fallon (02:49)
Mm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (03:10)
Now they're taking half an hour, 45 minutes to go to sleep or beginning to wake up overnight again, where they'd previously stopped waking up overnight. And it may be those what are colloquially known as false starts, where your baby or toddler might do one sleep cycle. And then they're like, bing awake again. And you just sat down on the couch and you're like, no, I've got to go and resettle them.
Dr Fallon (03:33)
Yes.
Dr Laura (03:35)
And then the final sign that your baby or toddler may be ready to drop a nap is that they start to wake up super early in the morning. So they've run out of that drive to sleep by 5 a .m. and then they're up and ready to go. And you are not.
Dr Fallon (03:45)
Hmmmm
Yeah, yes. And it's interesting how different babies or toddlers will show different combinations of those signs. So for some, they're napping brilliantly, bedtime is fantastic, but they wake up for two hours in the middle of the night, or they wake up two hours earlier than normal. Or it might just be the only changes that they're difficult to settle for the last nap of the day. So it can really vary. But generally, if you're noticing,
Dr Laura (04:06)
Yes!
Dr Fallon (04:17)
one or more of those signs for about a week or so, it's probably time to drop a nap. Um, but it can vary a lot for babies and toddlers with different sleep needs. Talk us through that a bit, Laura.
Dr Laura (04:22)
Yeah.
Mm, yeah. So if you have a baby or a toddler with really high sleep needs, they are going to be hanging on to their day naps for longer. So, you know, if you have a four month old baby that has a 16 or 17 hour sleep need, that's very high, they're going to stay on four naps perhaps for much longer and they may be long naps as well. Compared to a baby of the same age who only has an 11 hour sleep need.
Dr Fallon (04:56)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (04:56)
So they may just have little cat naps during the day and they may drop down to fewer naps much earlier. So we do have some rules of thumb to follow, don't we Fallon, where we say roughly around the age of three or four months, your babies may be on about three naps. And then somewhere between six and seven months of age, your babies may drop down to two naps and somewhere between 12 months and 15 months, they'll drop down to one nap. But...
depending on your baby or toddler's unique sleep needs, there may be some variability in those windows. So a lower sleep need baby may drop their naps sooner than others, higher sleep need babies and toddlers are going to hold on to them for longer.
Dr Fallon (05:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we see that variability a lot when toddlers go to drop that one day nap, you know, they're finally ready to not nap anymore. Often the low sleep needs toddlers, sometimes they're just shy of two years of age and they're done with it. They do not need it. They're happy. They sleep beautifully overnight. And then there are other children who have a high sleep need who might nap even close to four years of age and they do really well with it.
Dr Laura (05:49)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
Dr Fallon (06:06)
I mean, that's two years of variability. So it is so important to be thinking about those signs that you mentioned, Laura, and thinking about what those signs mean for your individual baby or toddler. So yeah, I think it's really useful for parents to know that those are the key things you can look out for.
Dr Laura (06:21)
Yeah, and always, I always say to parents in clinic, make sure that those signs are present for at least a week, because we know so many different variables impact sleep. So your baby may be coming down with a virus, they may be about to produce another couple of teeth, they may be about to have a big developmental spurt of some kind. There can be a range of factors that impact sleep.
Dr Fallon (06:29)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (06:49)
So really important that you don't just see, oh, my baby skipped a nap for two days in a row. And all right, let's just drop the nap because you might just be just jumping the gun a little bit. So always make sure that you wait for at least a week to check that nothing else is going to come out of the woodwork. And then you go, oh my God, I've come down with that cold that everyone's got in daycare. Right. Let's just hold off. And in that case, you actually might need to give your child more sleep if they're ill.
Dr Fallon (06:57)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Laura (07:17)
And then, you know, when things settle down again, you can then go, all right, no, those signs are persisting now and they're not sick, they're not teething, there's nothing else happening. It must be that their sleep needs have changed. They need to be awake more during the day to practice all of those skills that they need to practice. And then you'll go, all right, now let's drop down and that's it.
Dr Fallon (07:27)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. And don't expect it to be smooth sailing. It's always a rough ride when we drop a nap. There are a few babies who will just do really well through it. You know, just expect that your baby or toddler will possibly be really cranky and difficult for about a week while they're adjusting. It can take their circadian rhythm anywhere from sort of three days to maybe a week, sometimes even a couple of weeks to really kind of get into that new rhythm. So once you do decide to drop the nap,
Dr Laura (07:47)
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:07)
Don't drop it for a day or two and see how it goes because it probably won't be going all that well. Be prepared to drop it for a full week. Um, and then you'll start to get a sense of whether it actually suits them or not. And after that week, you can make a decision. Okay. We're going to stick with this or actually we're going to go back and offer in a short nap again. Hmm.
Dr Laura (08:12)
Hmm.
Yeah, that's right. And it can be helpful in that week of transition. If you're struggling or they're struggling to think about offering what we call a power nap later in the afternoon, which isn't a whole sleep cycle. Oftentimes it's when you're bringing your toddler home from daycare and they're in the back of the car and they fall asleep for 10 minutes. You just, well, you know, can be.
impossible to keep a toddler asleep in the car who's just adjusting to a new schedule, either dropping down to one nap or no nap. So, all right, let them have a short nap, but it's not a whole sleep cycle. And that can sometimes just be a bit of a bridge to the new nap schedule or no nap schedule.
Dr Fallon (08:54)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Absolutely. I think another, another tip I've been giving parents lately in clinic is oftentimes when there's a public holiday, it's such a great opportunity to make one of these big changes. So so many people say it's really hard to drop this nap. You know, they have a sneaky nap on the, in the car on the way, you know, here or there or, or whatever else, but you know, we're, we're at the time of recording this, we're about to come up to the Easter long weekend, whether you celebrate Easter or not, majority of
Dr Laura (09:30)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (09:33)
workplaces are closing down for a few days over Easter. And that might open the door for the opportunity to drop a nap if both parents are gonna be around home. It makes it a bit easier for one parent to stay at home with the toddler or the baby to help them stay awake while the other one goes and does the groceries and you can avoid that sneaky car nap. Or you might have family staying who are gonna be really good distraction for a toddler who's trying to adapt to not having their day nap, for example. So that could...
Dr Laura (09:36)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Yes.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (10:01)
Yeah, provide a bit of an opportunity. So yeah, we've had, we've got lots of questions to get through this week and they're mostly, you know, there's a lot in here about naps. Maybe we'll start with Mwasi who, who sent through an update on her five and a half month old baby girl. She's now self settling and sleeping really well overnight with just one wake up for a feed. So well done Mwasi. That is just such fantastic news. You're doing so, so well.
Dr Laura (10:03)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (10:28)
Um Mwasi wants to change her schedule, her baby's schedule, but is a bit scared to mess with it at the moment because it is working so well. So she describes that her baby has a 12 and a half hour sleep need and three naps each day, one longer nap for about an hour and a half and then two shorter naps. She's awake from 4 .30 PM through to her 8 .30 PM bedtime. And she's waking up in the morning between 6 .20 AM and 7 .00 AM.
Dr Laura (10:49)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (10:54)
She says her baby is very noisy from about 5 .30 AM onwards. So Mwasi is awake from then as well because they share a room. Mwasi says she knows moving to her own room could help, but her baby isn't rolling yet and struggles with tummy time. So she's a bit hesitant about moving her to her own space. Mwasi would like an earlier bedtime so she can have a bit more time for herself in the evening.
Dr Laura (11:02)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (11:19)
Um, and she'd love a more consistent morning wake up time. So she wrote in to ask, how can I improve her schedule without everything falling apart?
Dr Laura (11:28)
Oh, yes. Well, that's always the fear, isn't it? That you get things just so and then they, yeah, if you tinker at all around the edges, it's going to fall apart. Mwasi I would say that given that your daughter is five and a half months old, she's very close to that point where she's going to drop down to two naps. And, you know, that's likely to happen somewhere around the six month mark. So just a couple of weeks away. So I would...
probably given that you've done such a lot of work to get to this point, Mwasi, I would just hold tight for another couple of weeks if you could. And then I would make the change to the two naps a day. And I'd be thinking given that she's got about a 12 and a half hour sleep need, I'd be thinking about letting her have just over two hours daytime sleep.
So that would be keeping that one long nap that she's having in the morning and then just one of her shorter naps in the afternoon that sound like they're about one sleep cycle, so 40 minutes or so. And then that leaves you with that 10 hours overnight. And if you're still feeding, you'd need to include time for a feed overnight. I think that you did say in your longer email that there's one feed overnight. So we'd be looking at maybe a...
A bedtime of somewhere between, you know, maybe about 7 .45 for a 6 a .m. wake up. If you include about 15 minutes for a feed in the middle of the night, or if you would prefer to have a little bit later sleeping in the morning, then bedtime would be at about eight and wake up at about 6 .15 ish.
But I know that you've asked for an earlier bedtime. So I reckon that that would probably suit you better to do that bedtime of around 7 .45. And then in terms of that consistent morning wake up time, currently, yeah, there's about a 45 minute difference in the morning from her earlier wake up to her later wake up. And whilst for many families that suits them just fine.
Dr Fallon (13:15)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (13:33)
for others and perhaps for you Mwasi, it's just a little bit too wide. So I would be saying, okay, if wake up is six o 'clock, then just make sure that you do wake her every morning at six o 'clock. And that's then gonna help the whole day fall into a really predictable schedule. And it's gonna help bedtime be a little bit more predictable as well. Did you have anything else to add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (13:55)
No, I think that's really good advice, Laura. And I think you're really close, Mwasi to having the two -nap sort of schedule happening. And that's often when parents get a bit more time back to themselves in the evening. And we want that for you. So let us know how you're going.
Dr Laura (14:07)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:09)
Laura, we've also had a really lovely email come in from Alana, who says, we just wanted to thank you from the bottom of our hearts for your Sombelle program. We were in a deep fog of uncertainty and anxiety over our baby settling and sleep. And it feels like we have finally turned a corner. Yeah. Alana says, I come from a family where all the babies or toddlers have been really hard settlers and had a lot of sleep difficulties.
Dr Laura (14:13)
Mm -hmm.
Hooray!
Dr Fallon (14:37)
Um, and she thought that this was going to be her life forever. So she says to know I have a program I can look to for support in the coming years that actually works is life changing. Oh, Alana, thank you. That just means so much to us. When we get these sorts of emails, Laura and I send each other a message going, did you see that? We love it.
Dr Laura (14:41)
No.
Yeah, we do. We really do. Because it's lovely to hear that that's why we developed this program is to help parents out of this fog. So I'm delighted, Alana, that we have been able to help you get out of the fog.
Dr Fallon (15:04)
Yes.
Yeah, for sure. So Alana says they started the quick tapered approach at 12 weeks of age and he did not even cry once. Wow. She says we're a week into phase one or step one, but he is already falling asleep easily with patting and shushing. Honestly, we feel like new people. She says our baby is now on five naps and we are about to drop to four as his naps are becoming longer.
Dr Laura (15:18)
Yeah, amazing.
Aww.
Dr Fallon (15:37)
is averaging between 40 minutes to an hour for each nap. She says cot settling also made his false starts disappear within one day. And that can sometimes happen. They're not getting that surprise of waking up somewhere. They didn't fall asleep. So that's really wonderful to hear. Alana's question is about overnight feeds and where her baby is sleeping. He's now 13 weeks old and he's sleeping roughly 7pm to 7am overnight with between two to four feeds.
Dr Laura (15:50)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (16:06)
He naps in his cot in his own room during the day as that room is the darkest in the house and starts the night in there as well. But during the night, Alana transfers him into his bassinet in their room after a feed. She sometimes gives him a dream feed at 10 .30 PM, but he still wakes up for a feed at around 12 ish, then two to three AM and around 4 .30 to 5 .30 AM. Her question is, should I continue to give the dream feed?
at 10 .30 or just transfer him to the bassinet and let him sleep as long as he needs for that first stretch or even just leave him in his cot undisturbed in the other room until he wakes. What do you think Laura?
Dr Laura (16:45)
Well done, Alana. What a great job you're doing, first of all. Now, let me think about breaking your question down. First of all, dream feeds. Dream feeds can be brilliant for about 50 % of babies. And we consider them successful if your baby then does a nice long stretch of sleep after the dream feed. From what you're describing in your email, Alana, your baby is actually waking up
again, just a couple of hours after the dream feed. So if that is happening consistently, then I would say that the dream feed isn't working in the way that it's meant to work. So I would then stop offering the dream feed and just move on to demand feeding. If I have misread your email, Alana, and in fact, when you do offer the dream feed, he does then do a long stretch, then you can continue to offer the dream feed.
And of course your baby's only really little, so it's very appropriate for him to be feeding overnight for the time being. And in your email, you said that you're happy to feed two to four times, so you carry on doing that, that's fine. Now, in terms of where your baby sleeps, it can be really tricky trying to find the best balance of having a sleep space that is
quiet and dark during the day, particularly if you have other children. And the house setup is such that it's not appropriate for them to sleep where you want them to sleep overnight during the day. So you've done the right thing to set up a space that's nice and dark during the day for your baby to sleep. So what we have to think about now is he's beginning to sleep for longer stretches at the start of the night. And so in the past where it made sense to then just...
pop him into the bassinet in your room once you gave him a dream feed. Now that's a little less clear. Now we know that the SIDS guidelines recommend that you room share with your baby for the first six to 12 months of age. So we also have to think about all the other risk factors around safe sleeping. So many families...
do actually move their babies into their own rooms from when they're earlier than six months old, as long as all of the other risk factors aren't present. And that includes whether there's any smokers in the household, making sure that the bed, bedding, the cot, the mattress is safe and that the temperature in the room is safe. So if all of those other factors are, the risk factors aren't there, you tick, it's a safe sleep space in his bedroom.
One of the things you could consider doing, Alana, is letting your baby go to sleep at the start of the night in his own bedroom, and then moving to the demand feeding and keeping him in his bedroom all night in the cot. If you're a bit wary of him staying in the cot all night without you being in there, then you could consider moving a bed into his bedroom. Alternatively, we could think about...
I mean, given that he's how old did he say 13 weeks old? He's probably going to get to the stage soon where he's going to outgrow that bassinet. So you could even consider if you could having a cot in your own room. So switching that bassinet to a cot. And once he wakes up for his first feed overnight, then put him into the cot in your room, if you'd prefer to sleep in your own bed overnight rather than a bed in his room.
Oh, Fallon, I think I just went down. That was like a really wild ride, wasn't it? Did I?
Dr Fallon (20:13)
That's all right. You've given Alana every option available. It's very thorough.
Dr Laura (20:22)
Fallon often says to me, now Laura, we're going to go quickly. We're going to be like, just try and get some really succinct answers. And I can see your face Fallon going, uh, as I go left, right, up, down.
Dr Fallon (20:26)
You
That's all right. That's all right. There'll be an answer there for every listener. I love it. Hopefully that's helpful, Alana. And I think, you know, with winter fast approaching daylight savings is coming to an end. The nights are going to get a bit darker. So you might even find that earlier on in the night, you know, your baby might settle really well in your room because it will be darker in there. So if you were going to keep them in your room.
Dr Laura (20:34)
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (20:56)
You might find that you could just put them down there at the start of the night, something to think about. Excellent. Do you want to read out Sharon's question, Laura?
Dr Laura (21:00)
Yeah.
Yeah, so Sharon has emailed to say, thank you for your Sombelle program. I've been working with my little man since he was eight weeks old and now have such an amazing sleeper. He's four and a half months old and sleeps from seven o 'clock at night till 7 .30 in the morning with only one wake for a feed. And he naps in the cot or on the go. That's great. Well done, Sharon. Sharon has two questions. First of all, she asks,
Dr Fallon (21:23)
Wow.
Mmm, excellent.
Dr Laura (21:32)
I'd like to implement a power nap some days as my boy usually does three naps. However, some days has two long naps, but then cannot make it through until bedtime. What time should the power nap be to ensure he still has enough sleep pressure before bed? Fallon, do you want to answer that one?
Dr Fallon (21:50)
Yeah, yep. Gosh, he's doing really well for an eight week old, isn't he? That's everything you described there, Sharon. Sounds really wonderful.
Dr Laura (21:58)
No, he's now four and a half months old. So she started the program at eight weeks. Yeah, that would have been really incredible.
Dr Fallon (22:01)
Ah, okay.
going to say, wow, okay. All right. I'm paying more attention now. All right. So he's four and a half months old. He's doing really well. Um, so with the two longer naps, I mean, there's a couple of things you could do for starters. It could just be to keep him on, if you want to keep him on three naps a little bit longer, and he might need to be for a bit longer yet. Um, it could just be that for that second nap, you cap the nap. So if he, if it's really stretching on, you wake him up so that he can easily fit in that third nap of the day.
Dr Laura (22:12)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:34)
That might be the easiest thing on his circadian rhythm because it means you're more likely to be able to keep his bedtime at the same time each night. If you make sure that second nap doesn't sort of get, get too stretched out. Um, but if you want to try keeping the two longer naps and offering a power nap, I would say you want to offer that power nap sort of, so he's at least got sort of two hours awake before.
Dr Laura (22:37)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (23:01)
bedtime. So with a 7pm bedtime, you'd want to make sure you could fit that power nap in so he's waking up by about 5pm. And that minimizes the chances that that little power nap is going to throw out his bedtime. But I'm always really, I think I'm more cautious than you Laura with power naps. I'm often like, no, don't do it. And you're like, yeah, do it. So that's where there's just a bit of difference between our advice. I would say just look at how he copes with that. If it's at all tricky for him and it's
Dr Laura (23:13)
Mm.
Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:27)
You know, if you're finding bedtimes getting really difficult when you offer that power nap, definitely just cap that second nap, reduce it down a little bit so you could more comfortably fit in that third nap. Um, would you add anything to that Laura?
Dr Laura (23:37)
Yeah. No, I think that sounds like great advice. Sharon, your son will probably then stay on three naps until he's around six months old. And then you can let him do the two longer naps. He'll then be able to tolerate being awake before bed for about four hours -ish. And so it won't feel like such a long stretch from the time that he wakes up from his second nap until bedtime.
Dr Fallon (24:01)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (24:01)
Sharon also has another question. She says that she keeps seeing things around about cortisol levels and sleep. Things like an increase in cortisol from pushing awake times in the day can cause early rising because it all gets built up and released quickly at three to four AM instead of slowly before normal rising time. Is there actually scientific proof to this? Well, that's a nice curly one Fallon. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (24:26)
Hmm. But the really quick answer is not enough. There's, you know, it's definitely a really keen interest of a lot of sleep scientists looking at how cortisol factors into sleep. There's not a whole lot of research though. There aren't any really clear, direct answers. Um, I think probably the easiest way to answer this question is to really say that high cortisol levels come about when, when a human is stressed or worried. Um,
Dr Laura (24:41)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (24:52)
maybe potentially if you are really, really exhausted, your cortisol levels might go up. So when thinking about your own baby's sleep and how long they're awake during the daytime, think about their mood. And that's what we always say over and over again is look at the baby in front of you. If they're, you know, a low sleep needs baby who's happy as Larry all day long, full of energy, having a great day, but they've got really long awake windows and they cope with them well and they have great nights. There's no problem there. I would not be worried at all about.
cortisol levels, why even worry about that? Because if you've got a happy baby, they're doing fine and they're well rested. I would only be thinking, you know, if you're having really long awake windows for your baby, you know, really persistently, you're noticing that they're hugely cranky. They're never coping well. They're rarely happy when they're awake. And this is going on over weeks and weeks. You've definitely keeping your baby up for too long, but I can't tell you how rare that is.
Dr Laura (25:24)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:47)
It's so rare that a parent is keeping, deliberately keeping a really cranky upset baby or toddler awake, you know, for a long time, across weeks. Sometimes it happens when we're trying to drop a nap. Definitely you'll see that little peak in cranky behavior. Maybe cortisol levels are going up at that time. We can't really say for sure, but it's temporary and there's going to be ups and downs and fluctuation, fluctuations in all sorts of hormones and.
Dr Laura (25:47)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm. Yeah.
Hehehehe.
Dr Fallon (26:15)
neurotransmitters and things that just happen all the time that we we you know aren't even aware of. So look at the baby in front of you and if they're happy and well rested they're fine.
Dr Laura (26:25)
Yeah, I think that's really reassuring Fallon. And I think it's also important for families to understand that cortisol is a hormone that has a really important role to play in everybody's functioning. It's important for alertness during the day and in the same way that melatonin is important for sleepiness at night. So if we're thinking about...
Dr Fallon (26:35)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (26:49)
how much we think about what we eat, you know, in the past, there was a lot of, you mustn't eat any fat and you mustn't eat any carbohydrates, but we know, we actually need all of those things to function well. So our aim is not to have our children not having any cortisol, because actually, they need cortisol, and it needs to fluctuate in its levels, because that's what it is meant to do. So.
Dr Fallon (26:56)
Yeah.
Heheheheh
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Laura (27:14)
It's really, when we think about cortisol being problematic, we're thinking about persistently chronically high levels of cortisol. And that is not something that we're likely to be seeing just in a couple of weeks of trying to reset our baby's body clocks in the same way, you know, if they're coming back, if we've had a trip to the UK, talking from personal experiences and we bring our babies back into Melbourne time.
Dr Fallon (27:23)
Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (27:42)
We have to help them stay awake during the day to get back into Melbourne time. If you have a baby that's got a really delayed circadian rhythm such that they're not going to bed until 11, going to sleep until 11 o 'clock at night and they're not waking until 10 o 'clock the next morning and we need to move them into a more reasonable rhythm. We're going to be having to manipulate their bedtime and their wake up time, but we're not doing this.
chronically forevermore and leading them to have that high cortisol levels. So Sharon, great question. But try, as Fallon says, just to look, is your baby happy? Are they functioning well? Then just ignore all that information online about cortisol being bad. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:13)
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's good advice. Um, Imogen wrote in as well. She has a two year old and a seven month old. Her two year old is a low sleep needs tods - toddler, a low sleep needs toddler. I'm not doing well with my words today am I?
Dr Laura (28:39)
You
No, we should probably let families know poor Fallon is here recovering from surgery this week. I'm just very grateful that you are here Fallon and we're able to do this podcast together, but we give you a leave pass.
Dr Fallon (28:47)
Yeah.
Oh, I'm just trying to coordinate. Yeah, I'm just trying to coordinate sort of the last three or four brain cells that are working. They're trying really hard. Okay. All right. So Imogen's two year old is a low sleep needs toddler and shows many signs that he's ready to drop his nap, like pushing bedtime very late, sometimes to 10 or 11 PM and waking frequently overnight.
Dr Laura (29:05)
Keep going.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:20)
but she's nervous to drop his nap because she often has to do bedtime on her own. And he's very cranky by the end of the day if he hasn't napped. This is one of these examples I would say where it could be that over the Easter break, if both you and your partner are around home Imogen it could be that you work together at the bedtime and it might be a bit easier to drop his nap. Sometimes you just need to drop it for a whole week. They sleep better overnight and then they don't need it. They wake up more refreshed. They get through to bedtime much more easily.
Dr Laura (29:27)
Hmm.
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:49)
He might just need that little bit of a push. So that Easter break might be a good time to do it. Imogen also says her seven month old wakes two or three times each night. And she's thinking about moving her out of the parental bedroom to see if this helps her sleep better. Imogen is thinking about putting both kids into the same bedroom, even though they do have space to have them in separate rooms. She feels it might make bedtime easier if they're sharing a room, you know, and they're both in the same place.
Dr Laura (30:04)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (30:16)
However, she's also worried they might wake each other, especially since her toddler is quite loud. Imogen would like guidance on room sharing with a baby and a toddler in together. What do you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (30:21)
Right.
Hmm. I would suggest Imogen getting their sleep sorted in separate bedrooms first, and then moving them into a shared room once your seven month old is sleeping better. It can be wonderful having your baby and toddler in the same room. And many families have, they can do it by choice. Like you're suggesting Imogen and others just have to do it.
Dr Fallon (30:44)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:55)
because that's all the room allows where they live. Since you have got the choice, I would put them into separate rooms, work on their sleep and settling for both of them and yeah, then move them into the same bedroom once your seven month old is sleeping better.
Dr Fallon (31:09)
Hmm.
Yeah. And your seven month old won't be as worried about where they're sleeping. And if that changes, they're less likely to be terribly bothered. So it might be that you have the toddler in the room they're going to stay in and your seven month old might go into like a spare bedroom or something while you're working on their sleep. And then you move the seven month old in with the toddler. Toddlers are much more sensitive to a change of place in where they sleep. Yeah. And you could also try white noise under the cots. I know a lot of families when they've got a couple of kids in together.
Dr Laura (31:32)
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (31:42)
they'll actually put the white noise underneath the bed of the child who's more likely to wake up because of the other child making the noise. So that can also work well too, just make sure it's not excessively loud. Of course, we just want it loud enough to help mask the sounds of the other children. So yeah, you're doing a great job Imogen and thank you so much for sending in that question.
Dr Laura (31:50)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, good luck. Shall I read the next email from Claire Fallon? So Claire sent in two brilliant questions. She has a two year old who is very active and busy. And she says, recently, my two year old is taking two hours to go to sleep at night and is falling asleep at 8 p .m. Oh, that's a long time to be trying to settle your toddler, Claire. Oh, gosh.
Dr Fallon (32:07)
Yeah.
It is.
Dr Laura (32:27)
She is awake at 6am and has a day nap of an hour and a half to two hours. Previously I have been told that her circadian rhythm is set by exposure to light and that she can be on a 6pm to 6am routine for example. But at night she is taking two hours to fall asleep and we have big bedtime battles. Her bedroom is pitch black so her circadian rhythm should be in sync if we put her
bed at six -ish. So is this true or untrue? So shall we answer that question first? Yeah it is untrue Claire. It is important that light does reset the body clock. So all of us have a body clock that's slightly longer than 24 hours and every morning all of our body clocks are reset by the sun or if you live in the northern hemisphere and it's winter.
Dr Fallon (32:58)
Untrue.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (33:21)
by artificial light. And so there's that as with many things around sleep, there is a grain of truth in what you have been told, but it has been taken too far. So it doesn't mean that when the sun comes up, you're, you're ready to get going for the day. And when the sun goes down, you should go to sleep. It just means that the sun is very important for resetting the body clock every day and helping.
Dr Fallon (33:22)
Hehehehe.
Dr Laura (33:49)
start and stop different processes in the brain that control sleep -wake cycles. But you still need to look at your child's unique sleep needs. And then you use light and dark as a friend to assist, don't you, Fallon? Yeah.
Dr Fallon (33:54)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yes, there's only so much control we have. Like there are, I mean, there are plenty of adults who can't sleep, you know, the recommended amount because it's just not in their sleep need and you could make them go to bed earlier and, you know, force them to lay in bed and try to sleep. And we know that that would go terribly. You wouldn't learn to sleep longer. So I think that, no, it's not possible to just say, well, every baby should sleep 6pm.
Dr Laura (34:23)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (34:30)
to 6 a .m. and if it's dark enough, they'll eventually get used to it. We know that they won't. It's so important to look at their unique sleep needs. And it sounds like your child's circadian rhythm is ready for sleep at 8 p .m. and ready to wake up at 6 a .m. And I actually think it's really important that, look, I know there are a lot of sleep people out there who, maybe the less qualified sleep people out there, who would say,
You know, absolutely not, you know, put them down, leave them there for that two hours. They have to learn to fall asleep then. Um, and I actually find that a little bit unethical because what is the benefit of a baby lying there in a dark room with no stimulation? Um, probably feeling bored, really frustrated, and then starting to really hate their cot. And that's going to be the last place they want to be. Every child when they're awake and ready to engage and interact with the world should be given that opportunity because that's how babies learn and grow and develop.
Dr Laura (35:13)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (35:26)
So yeah, definitely stick to what your baby actually seems to need.
Dr Laura (35:30)
Yeah. And Claire, you'll likely find that when you don't start the bedtime routine until about half an hour before bedtime, that those bedtime battles are really going to diminish. Your two -year -old is not going to be thinking, oh, joy, I'm now going to have two hours stuck in my room with no toys, no one to interact with, nothing to do, just my thoughts in my head and really push back on it.
Dr Fallon (35:42)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (35:56)
Instead, she's going to know that she can have all that fun and interaction with you up until about 7 .30. And then just that last half hour is wind down, books, songs, teeth, toilet, and then into bed. And then you'll find that then she will go to sleep really much more easily at eight o 'clock. And those bedtime battles will just fall by the wayside.
Dr Fallon (35:57)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah. You're saying good night right when her body is actually ready to sleep. And that can be life changing. And it means you get your evenings back Claire. Cause instead of trying to settle her, you can relax a bit and let the evening kind of unfold. Um, very good. There's a second part to this. Yeah.
Dr Laura (36:26)
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Claire has this, yeah. Yeah, so she says, I go to bed between nine and nine 30. And sometimes I have a nap when my two year old naps in the middle of the day. Oh, and she says she can still go to sleep herself between nine and nine 30 at night. So she just wonders how her two year old needs a bedtime of 8pm, which seems so late to Claire. When Claire herself goes to bed at nine and can also have a nap in the day.
She's, Claire says, I'm 32 and she's two. Oh, Claire, I feel your pain. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (37:04)
It's such a good example of different sleep needs. Excuse me. Look, Claire, if you're able to sleep, I'm guessing from about nine till 6 a .m. when your toddler gets up. So it's about nine hours there and maybe you're having another hour or so nap yourself in the daytime. You've probably got around about a 10 hour sleep need, which is very high and kind of rare for an adult to need 10 hours of sleep.
Dr Laura (37:10)
Yes, isn't it? Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (37:30)
per 24 hours, if you're sleeping really well, then that's perfectly fine. And that is your sleep need. But if you use yourself sometimes and wake up a lot at night or have trouble falling asleep, um, then yeah, the day might even be impacting your nights, but this is not a podcast about adult sleep. So back to the, back to the toddler. Um,
Dr Laura (37:43)
Yes. No.
Dr Fallon (37:49)
This is where, yeah, you can have a toddler that has very different sleep needs to you, just like you can have a toddler who eats a very different amount of food to you. So many parents say, my two year old eats more than I do. Why? And it's just, that's, that's who they are. They need lots of calories because they're growing. Well, in your case, your baby needs lots of awake time to learn and grow. Um, because that's their priority at the moment. So if she's happy and doing really well in the daytime, um, you've got nothing to worry about. And.
Dr Laura (37:53)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Dr Fallon (38:16)
working towards her unique sleep needs is the best thing you can do.
Dr Laura (38:20)
Yeah, and Claire, look, I'm with you. I have high sleep needs too. I know this isn't about adult sleep, but I suffered this as well with lower sleep needs, toddlers, and being a high sleep need person. It's a special kind of torture. And as your baby gets older, and when they're into the school years, your child's going to be able to entertain themselves a little bit. So there will be light at the end of the tunnel, Claire.
Dr Fallon (38:24)
You
Yeah.
Dr Laura (38:45)
you will be able to merge those sleep needs eventually. It is just hard for the time being, but you carry on having your nap during the day, Claire, so that you can parent your toddler as well as possible in a well -rested fashion. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (39:00)
Yeah, absolutely. And the last question we have came through from Rose. So Rose sent through quite a long email with lots and lots of detail, which does suggest Rose that a coaching call is probably a really good idea. So we could do a bit of a deep dive into what's happening for your 14 month old. It just allows us to discuss things in greater detail. So anyone who's listening who would like to have a chat with myself or with Laura on your dashboard, there is a link there to book a coaching call. So definitely have a think about that.
Dr Laura (39:27)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (39:29)
But in summary, Rose describes that her son who's 14 months old does well on 10 and a half hours of sleep per day. So he's definitely a low sleep needs toddler. They've recently made some changes to his daily rhythm and have found that he really needs a one and a half hour day nap. He feeds to sleep and has some very wakeful nights. They've had difficulties with settling him and they're currently working on the advanced slow fade approach to move away from feeding him to sleep.
Dr Laura (39:36)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (39:56)
However, they haven't been able to move to step two of this approach because he gets very upset and pushes back very hard. So Rose wonders if they should try another approach. My first thought on reading this Laura was, you know, if he's having a one and a half hour day nap, that's really only leaving him with nine hours left of sleep to do overnight. And since you've had trouble with settling, I would say stick to that nine hour window really closely. There might be a 9 p .m. bedtime and a 6 a .m. wake up time, for example.
Dr Laura (40:07)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm. Mmm.
Dr Fallon (40:25)
Um, but stick to that really tightly and cap that day nap at an hour and a half. Um, if you do all of that for three or four days or even as much as a week, then when you go to settle him, he'll be super tired at bedtime. Um, and that could really make a big difference with taking the next steps with settling.
Dr Laura (40:30)
Mm.
Mm.
Hmm, yeah, I think that's a really good idea. I think also one thing to consider Rose is that for some toddlers, the really slow, more gradual approaches can be a bit hard on them. Because with the slow fade approach in particular, there's quite a number of small changes that happen over time. And since you're moving away from feeding to sleep,
It may be that these changes go on for about, you know, four, six weeks, something like that. And so for a toddler, when you're making, you know, every few weeks, making another change, it can be a bit discombobulating. And for some toddlers, they actually respond better if you make one big change and then the progress tends to be a little bit quicker. It's not the same for all toddlers of
course, but given that you'll describe that you're finding that it's, it's a bit hard to make progress. I'm wondering if that might be the case for your toddler. So I'd perhaps just have a little look whilst you're working on getting that timing right and sticking strictly to that nine hours overnight, like Fallon just suggested, have a really close read of the advanced quick fade approach or even the advanced accelerated and just see whether you feel that.
either of those approaches might be a little bit of a better fit for your toddler who might otherwise just continue to push back on all those little changes and that will make it harder for you to keep making progress.
Dr Fallon (42:21)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really good advice for anyone listening in who is a Sombelle member. The coaching calls are a really good way to, for us to do a really detailed dive into all the different factors impacting your child's sleep. And often what I find in coaching calls with parents is that parents find it really useful for just, you know, they're often coming to them with lots of ideas about things they might try and they just want a bit of confidence in their plan before they dive in.
Dr Laura (42:47)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (42:49)
So if you're in that situation, when you log into your Sombelle program, there's a menu on the left -hand side of the page and right up the top, it says book a coaching call. Click there and you can see our availability. And Laura, I think you've got availability in the next couple of days. So we do try and make it that you're not having to wait too long for a coaching call. So they're generally available pretty quickly.
Dr Laura (43:04)
Yeah, I have.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (43:11)
All right, so to wrap things up, if you're on the East Coast of Australia, you know that daylight savings time is coming to an end in the next couple of weeks. What I would suggest is if you're wondering how you're going to adapt your child's schedule, go and follow us on Instagram because we're going to be doing some posts about exactly what changes you can make. To find us on Instagram, look up infant sleep Australia, because that's who we are. You should be able to find us pretty easily. So tune into that.
Dr Laura (43:19)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
I'm
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (43:39)
We also wanted to say there won't be an episode next week because we record these on Monday and there's going to be a public holiday for Easter. We thought, well, yeah, we'll give ourselves a week off, which will probably mean we'll have a million questions to answer the next week. So taking that into account as well, if you are going to send through questions, have a really good think about the real core of what it is you're wanting to know and do the best you can to just pop it into sort of dot point type things. Cause that makes it a lot easier for us to include.
Dr Laura (43:52)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (44:09)
More questions in our next podcast. So on that note, if you celebrate Easter, have a wonderful long weekend. If you don't celebrate Easter, enjoy a bit of time off anyway. Hopefully you're getting a bit of time with family as so many workplaces take a brief pause. And as always, take really good care of yourselves and we can't wait to to be chatting again in a couple of weeks.
Dr Laura (44:12)
Yeah.
Yeah, thanks everyone. Bye bye.
