Dr Fallon (00:02)
Hi and welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a particular focus on sleep and settling during those first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with my co-host, Dr. Laura Conway. Happy Easter Laura, how was your break with your kids?
Dr Laura (00:19)
Yeah, thanks Fallon. Yeah, it's been really nice. Way too much chocolate eaten by everybody, but that I think just has to be done at Easter. And it's been really nice spending some time with the kids. We closed the clinic, didn't we Fallon, for a few days so that we could spend some time with our family, which is just so important to do because we know it just flies by these early years.
Dr Fallon (00:25)
Hehehehe
Yes.
Yeah.
It really does. Yeah. Before you know it, they're not at all interested in hanging around with family and eating chocolate on Easter morning. It all goes so quickly. Um, yeah. And I know like a lot of families are out and about traveling. I didn't really travel too much. We sort of stayed around home. Um, but we also had some questions coming from parents who were asking about, you know, how do I manage sleep and settling when.
Dr Laura (00:51)
No, that's right.
Dr Fallon (01:08)
you know, essentially when the routine kind of goes out the window, when we're either in the car a lot or where you know, jumping on a plane maybe if you're really lucky. We've had lots of families saying we're flying home to visit family which is so lovely. But I think a lot of parents go into it and I know I did this too before I traveled with my kids. The anxiety in the lead-up to travel was just horrendous and I mean overall I found that the anxiety in the lead-up to it was far worse than anything that kind of went wrong on the trip.
Dr Laura (01:10)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Ha ha
Dr Fallon (01:36)
But you've traveled so much with your children, Laura, tell me about your experiences traveling with them.
Dr Laura (01:40)
Yeah, well, because I'm from the UK, and definitely before COVID, we went back to visit my family in the UK, you know, every year or two. And that meant that the children got a lot of experience being on planes and being in transit. And I got a lot of experience too. And I guess if I think back on all of those times when I was traveling with them.
The one thing that stands out when it comes to sleep and jet lag is that the kids coped remarkably well. They were the ones who were up at two o'clock in the morning wanting to play. They had got their dress up clothes out of the suitcase and were dressed as pirates and fairies and wanting to jump around the hotel room or jump around granny and granddad's.
Dr Fallon (02:14)
Yes.
Hehehehe
Hehehehe
Dr Laura (02:31)
And they were absolutely happy as Larry. I, on the other hand, was the one who was very tired. And they, you know, seemed to adjust much more quickly than, than I did and their dad did. And I think that's something really to hang on to when you are planning an overseas trip as parents of young children is to know that your children are very resilient and their sleep will bounce back. Of course, they're going to have some early morning.
Dr Fallon (02:36)
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (02:58)
wakes or middle of the night wakes simply because you're switching time zones. But it's not going to derail the whole trip and you are going to be able to have a nice time and they actually are going to be able to catch up and you will too. So I look back and giggle now. I wasn't giggling at two o'clock in the morning as the pirate and fairy trampled over me as I lay on the floor wishing they were asleep. But
Dr Fallon (03:12)
Hmm.
Ha ha
Dr Laura (03:23)
Yeah, we had a really nice time. So I think that parents who are planning an overseas trip, don't think, don't put it off and don't think I won't have that experience because I'm worried that it's going to upset the apple cart particularly if you've worked hard on getting your children's sleep right. Because the wonderful experiences that you'll have and that you're giving your children will far outweigh.
Dr Fallon (03:23)
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Laura (03:46)
the few days that you might have of them having a little bit of tricky sleep when you get there.
Dr Fallon (03:50)
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think it's so important that if you can travel, you go and do it because little kids, especially as just, yeah, so, so resilient. And if you go into it, just expecting that, okay, we're probably going to be awake at 2am or 4am, you know, once, maybe twice when we get there. Um, then it's not such a shock when it happens and you certainly don't need to panic and think, oh my God, they're awake at 2am, we've completely stuffed this up. It is completely normal. Um, and it won't last. So.
Dr Laura (04:15)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (04:19)
I think maybe first let's talk about what to do when you're changing time zones. And then we'll just maybe talk a bit more about sort of just general advice for traveling, even if it is just local travel, um, with your kids. And I would say what it always amazes me is that children are so quick to adapt to a new time zone. If they're getting plenty of natural light in the daytime, I think that's one of the best things you can do is when you get to your destination, if it's daytime, keep it as bright as you can. And if it's nighttime, keep it as dark and boring as you can.
Dr Laura (04:24)
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (04:48)
because that really helps this circadian rhythm to figure out, okay, we've changed time zones. What other hacks and tricks do you have, Laura?
Dr Laura (04:48)
Yes.
Mmm.
Yeah, aside from the daylight being your friend, I like to think about what time of day you're going to be landing in your destination, whether it's before, whether it's basically in the morning or early afternoon, or whether it's in the evening, and then try to determine if it's the evening that you're arriving, you're really going to be wanting your little ones to be going down to sleep for their nighttime sleep.
quite soon after arriving. So you need to ensure that they've been awake for a nice long stretch, just in that last part of the flight. Whereas if you're arriving earlier in the morning or just early afternoon, you're gonna be hoping to keep them awake for a little bit longer. So you want them to be sleeping in that last part of the flight. So we do also have in the Sombelle,
Dr Fallon (05:23)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (05:44)
course, a section on international travel that gives you a little bit more detail about how to work out when the sleep should be when you're on the plane. So have a good read of that to work out when you want to time those sleeps on the plane as you go over there. What other tips do you have, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (05:55)
Hmm
Yeah.
Yeah, look, I would say the, you know, when it comes to, I mean, we actually know this with our own sleep, don't we? It's harder to sleep when we're somewhere different, even if it's not very different, even if it's a really lovely Airbnb in the countryside and you've got lovely linen sheets and it's all delightful. It's just different from home. And that can mean that it takes longer to fall asleep. So for babies and toddlers, I always say, I mean, you're going to do the obvious things, like you're going to take the dummy that they're used to having or the comfort toy that they're used to having.
Dr Laura (06:19)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (06:31)
But if you can, it's really well worth trying to take the sheets off their cot at home, bundle them up in a bag, put them in your suitcase, pull them out when you get there. Because if their bed smells familiar, and you've got to do other things too, like if they're used to a dark room, obviously keep it dark, you might get some travel block out blinds to help with that. But if it smells familiar, if it looks familiar, it's nice and dark.
Dr Laura (06:36)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (06:56)
If they've got white noise, you take the white noise machine with you too, then it's gonna sound the same. If we can put all of those similar kind of tapping to their senses and make it as similar to home as possible, you're much more likely to find that nothing really needs to change with how you settle them. You'll pop them down in their new sleep space. It's familiar enough that, look, often parents do say, look, normally I can put them down and leave the room and they're fine. But when we travel, I sit in the room somewhere nearby because they're a little bit unsure.
Dr Laura (06:58)
Oh, yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:23)
That's perfectly fine. I'm very, very normal. I do that with my kids too, if they're feeling a bit worried, sleeping somewhere new, I'll just hang out in a chair in the room and sit there quietly until they fall asleep. So yeah, I think it's really key to keeping things reasonably similar. And if you're able to travel with your porticot, do it, and do some practice sleeps in the porticot before you go, because then that's becoming a familiar place. Do it as much as you want to.
Dr Laura (07:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (07:49)
It can really, really help then when you travel, it's just not even a big deal at all. This looks completely as it normally would. And then they tend to adapt really well to travel on the go. I think a lot of parents though, that I speak to are really concerned about, you know, maybe they've just stopped co-sleeping recently and their child is finally sleeping in a porticot.
Dr Laura (07:56)
Yes.
Yeah.
Oh yes.
Dr Fallon (08:12)
And then they're going to stay at a cabin or something where their child's porticot has to be in the same room as them. And they're thinking, how do we manage this? Because I know my child is going to want to get into our bed. What do you tend to say to families who have that concern?
Dr Laura (08:27)
Yeah, so I tend to say, to, as you say, keep the environment as similar as you can, try and replicate that bedroom experience. And in the same way, in the same vein, rather, replicate the bedtime routine, so that you do those same activities in the lead up to bedtime. So even though they're in an unusual space, it's, they're still getting those sleep cues in the run up to bedtime.
Dr Fallon (08:40)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (08:51)
And so what you're saying to your baby or toddler is that even though we're somewhere different, these same activities are going to happen in the lead up to bedtime. And when you pop your baby down in the portacot, they may just be a little bit more alert than they normally are because just in the same way as you've described, we are as well as adults, we're sleeping somewhere different. But if you'd settle them in exactly the same way that you've been
practicing at home, then that's reassuring to your baby or toddler. So the room might be different, the porta cop may or may not be familiar. But the bedtime routine has been the same and you're patting them in the same way or shushing and humming them in the same way as you do at home. That's something that's staying constant. And that will be reassuring for them in this new environment. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:21)
Mmm.
Yes.
Oh, absolutely. It's so worth just trying what you normally do because in a space that is different, you are the constant, as you say, Laura, you're the constant thing that is similar and reassuring. So definitely, even if you think that this is never going to work, you know, try it anyway, cause you might be surprised. And I often say to families, if they're just, you know, having an absolute, they're chucking a narna they're like not having a bar of this portacot nonsense. What's going on? I.
Dr Laura (09:44)
Mmm.
Hahaha!
Dr Fallon (10:07)
think about applying the sort of scaffolding that you would apply if you had a child who wasn't feeling well. So it might be that you do have to give them a little bit more support than normal. If you've been trying for 10, 15, 20 minutes and not getting anywhere, but don't go straight to bringing them into your bed because that's going to be confusing and difficult for them when you get home and try to stop that again. Start with something really light touch. So it might be that you have the portacot right up against your bed and you have your arm hanging into the portacot, maybe you're holding their hand
Dr Laura (10:16)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (10:36)
resting your hand on their back or some kind of physical reassurance like that is often all they need and then they settle down and they're fine. If that's not enough maybe it is that you're patting them off to sleep but if they do become a little bit reliant on you having your hand nearby while you're traveling it's generally not too hard to phase it out when you get home whereas if you've been co-sleeping during the trip it can be a bit tricky, not impossible of course but just a bit trickier once you do get home again.
Dr Laura (10:43)
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah. And if you do have a situation where you're travelling and you know that you're all going to have to sleep in the same bed, because it's just, if you're visiting relatives and there isn't a portacot option or the room isn't going to be big enough, then know that things aren't going to be thrown out entirely. You do have those tools in your toolkit for when you do get back home. The trick will be when you get back home.
to immediately go back to popping your baby or toddler down into their usual sleep space. To say to them what you'll be demonstrating then is look things may have been different whilst we were away but now we're back home and when we're at home this is your sleep space and use the same bedtime routine and you can go back to whatever approach you were using before you went away. Be prepared for some pushback.
Dr Fallon (11:52)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (11:54)
because they may be a bit confused because they'll be thinking, well, for the last two weeks at granny and granddad's, I was able to sleep in your bed, what's changed now? But you're just going to be saying that we're back home now and back on board. We're doing the rules that happen at home rather than on holiday.
Dr Fallon (12:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such good advice, Laura. And I think we actually just kind of answered Bonnie and Dan's question that they sent him. They're heading off to Europe soon with their almost two year old and they had a great, great progress with Sombelle, but they were feeling really nervous that the trip might kind of mess things up for them. So hopefully Bonnie and Dan, that gives you some really good tips that you can work through. Definitely check out the lesson on international travel in Sombelle. I think it's in the troubleshooting chapter.
Dr Laura (12:19)
Ah.
Ah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (12:41)
Um, go and have a read through that for more tips on sort of managing the flight and all that sort of thing. And for goodness sake, get yourselves a good backpack. That's my advice. I tried to do a trip with like a shoulder bag as the main kind of bag with the drink bottles and all of that. Absolute nightmare. Get a comfortable backpack. It's not fashionable, but you won't care less when you've got both hands free to manage your child. Um, it is so much easier. So yeah.
Dr Laura (12:49)
Yes!
Yes!
It is. And on the plane, have a little smaller bag that you can take into the bathroom with you or the toilet with you. Because if you have a great big backpack, and you try and take that into the tiny little plane toilet, it's going to be a bit hard to carry your baby and the backpack and shut the door that those concertina doors or those foldable doors and pull down the change table, which is normally over the toilet.
Dr Fallon (13:15)
Yes.
Yes.
Oh, those change tables. It changing toddler nappies on a plane. It's just awful on that note pack pull ups, forget about nappies. Just take pull ups. It's so easy to just get them on and off. Um, yeah. For toddlers. Yeah. Maybe not for babies, but yeah, for toddlers for sure. Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (13:35)
You just will not have enough space.
toddlers. Yeah. And good luck. You'll end up with having hilarious stories of, I brought my daughter out of the toilet one time in the plane and I'd taken her and changed her nappy. I'd used the facility as myself whilst I was there, came out of the...
Dr Fallon (14:11)
Hehehe
Dr Laura (14:11)
It was in the middle of the night and my daughter with her lovely high-pitched little toddler voice announced to the whole plane that Mummy had just done a wee-wee.
Dr Fallon (14:20)
Yay! Great! Excellent! That's what everyone wanted to wake up in here.
Dr Laura (14:22)
Thanks darling. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So, yeah, take a little bag into the toilet with you with your child, it's going to be much easier to change their nappy, use pull-up nappies for older children, and that's going to make life much easier. And yeah, just be prepared for them to make all kinds of announcements to fellow passengers.
Dr Fallon (14:36)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (14:45)
Yeah
Dr Fallon (14:45)
Absolutely. And just have the best time. When I look back over my parenting journey so far, the absolute best times we had were on those trips. You were going to make the best memories. There is nothing more amazing than being able to show our little people what the world is like, whether it is just, you know, a trip an hour down the road or you're off to Italy, you know, it's either way, you're showing your kids new things and you'll make wonderful memories and it's just so worth doing if you can.
Dr Laura (15:01)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, we should stop reminiscing shouldn't we Fallon because I'm going to jump in with another memory in a moment but we should stop and move on to the next questions. Bonnie and Dan have a lovely time, let us know how you get on and tell us your funny stories from your trip to Italy. Shall I read the next question? Yep, so we have Izzy who would like to know, how do we handle childcare when they insist our toddler needs a nap? We're working hard to drop
Dr Fallon (15:13)
Yeah, we should.
Hahaha!
Yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
Cough.
Dr Laura (15:41)
causing terrible nights and we know he no longer needs a day nap but we're worried that as soon as he returns to childcare they will offer him a nap and we will be back to square one. Childcare says to deny a toddler a nap is against their regulations and that all children have the right to sleep to which Izzy says "I'd like to tell them so do I". Oh Izzy what should we do? Yeah
Dr Fallon (15:58)
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. Hmm. Yes. It's so hard when childcare centers. Look, I can understand it from their perspective. They have no idea what your child's nights are like. And if they've got a tired toddler, they'd be thinking, why wouldn't we let a tired toddler sleep? So the best you can do is explaining to them very clearly that there is a very big sleep problem. So if they're having biphasic nights or split nights, you can explain that you're, you know, you're working on reducing these and
a core component of your sleep plan is to reduce that day's sleep to fix those nights. You could tell them about the impact it's having on your family. It's always better to go into these discussions assuming that, you know, they want the best for your child, but they just don't understand your circumstances. So look, I'm going to assume though that Izzy has tried all of that and is still, you know, hitting a brick wall with it, which is incredibly frustrating. Yeah, it's really hard.
My first thought is that, you know, how many days per week do they go to childcare? You might not exactly be back to square one. If you've had a bit of a break from childcare and you've dropped the nap over around about a week or so, often that's enough for the circadian rhythm to adjust. So your toddler hopefully is powering through the day really well without their nap. And that means when they go back to childcare, there's a better chance they're not going to seem so tired at childcare during the day.
Dr Laura (17:09)
Mmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (17:25)
So I would be going into them saying, he does not need a day nap anymore. We've worked really hard to drop it. We would really appreciate if you can respect that and just avoid putting him down for a nap altogether. You know, maybe even give them some suggestions on things they can do to kind of keep him busy or to keep him quiet if he needs a little bit of rest time, but not sleep time. It's really challenging. I don't think there's a clear cut answer. And for a lot of families, it's just a messy transition until the toddler, you know, is well, well past that nap.
Dr Laura (17:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, if you have, as you say, Fallon, if they have hit a wall and daycare continue to offer a nap to your toddler, even when they're going well at home without the nap, then we just have to be pragmatic and think, okay, say your toddler is going to daycare twice a week, three times a week. On those days, move bedtime an hour later.
Dr Fallon (18:15)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (18:16)
It might have to be even longer than an hour, depending on what time of day and how long daycare is letting your toddler nap for. Just so that we think about that daily budget your toddler has for sleep. So if they are having a nap at daycare, then it's going to take the edge off their sleep pressure, which means that they're not going to be ready to go to sleep at their usual bedtime. So then we just take that.
Dr Fallon (18:29)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (18:42)
hour or so off their nighttime sleep. And then over time, your toddler will stop presenting as tired at daycare. Daycare may then be willing to say, yeah, we'll keep them awake. And then you'll be back to having the same bedtime every night because the toddler's no longer having a nap during the day.
Dr Fallon (19:02)
Hmm. And if you're really just having the worst nights ever, you're not getting anywhere, your child's not coping with having a varying bedtime on different nights of the week. Um, this probably sounds a little bit excessive, but sometimes it is time to find a childcare center that actually supports what you're trying to achieve. Um, a lot of people don't have the luxury of being able to shop around childcare centers at the moment. It's hard to get a spot. Um, but for a lot of families, your child might not stay with one center the whole of their childhood.
Dr Laura (19:21)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (19:33)
I know mine moved when they needed different things. And when there was a center that could better accommodate that, that need, I knew it was time to move. And then they did really, really well in the new center. So I keep that in mind as well. Could be an option.
Dr Laura (19:33)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Now Izzy has another question. She's picked up on a comment that we made in one of our previous podcast, Fallon, where she says, she wonders why we each have differing views on offering a power nap late in the day when adjusting to not having a day nap. She says that whilst a power nap does wonders for her toddler's mood, it pushes bedtime very late. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (19:51)
Mmm.
Yeah. Look, and I think it depends so much on your individual toddler. Some toddlers can have a 10 minute power nap at 4pm and it just works beautifully. Bedtime's a dream and it's all fine. And for others, it's a nightmare. And you know, you see parents making memes about how, oh my God, they've fallen asleep in the car for like five minutes. And you know, at 4pm now they're going to be up to 11pm, you know.
Dr Laura (20:32)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (20:32)
If you've got one of those toddlers, it's not going to work for you. Avoid it like you would avoid the plague. Just don't do it. Um, so yeah, it kind of depends on your individual circumstances. I'd say.
Dr Laura (20:37)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah. And Izzy, I think that often I'm keeping in my mind just pragmatics. Often when you have a toddler who's ready to drop a nap, you will have a little baby as well. Many parents go on to have a second baby, two or so years after their first. And you're having to be in the car, pick up, drop off, and
If you have had a child who your child is trying to drop a nap and you just have to be in the car, it's just almost impossible to keep that child awake coming home from daycare. So just taking the pressure off yourself and saying, all right, if they have a short nap, so be it. You're also juggling other members of the household. So I guess my view around the power nap is more about the pragmatics.
Dr Fallon (21:20)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (21:30)
and just making life easier for yourself in that evening time frame. In an ideal world, if we're not juggling lots of, you know, more than one small person, and you don't have a child with a really volatile temperament, of course, you wouldn't offer a power nap, because we just want to pull the bandaid off and try and get a child in to support them into a new circadian rhythm as quickly as possible.
Dr Fallon (21:30)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (21:54)
But we don't live in an ideal world. And I think that's probably where the difference, yeah, what a shame. I think that's probably where the difference comes from in what you picked up on when we spoke about this before. I think we both would support the idea of power naps for those families that it would suit and those toddlers that it would suit. And Fallon, I think is speaking from a standpoint of how do we get the circadian rhythm.
Dr Fallon (21:58)
What a shame. Yeah.
Dr Laura (22:20)
settled much more quickly, as quickly as possible. I'm taking it from a standpoint of pragmatics and probably my own experience and the experience of a lot of the families that come into the clinic that I see face to face with their multiple children. Do you think that's fair, Palin?
Dr Fallon (22:23)
Yeah.
Yeah. And that's it, isn't it? It's yeah, absolutely. And I think it's such a good example of how different people will tell you different things and as a parent, you sometimes just have to go, okay, well, now I've got that information. What is actually going to work for my child? And I guarantee the parents of toddlers listening right now, there'll be some that are going, oh, power naps were brilliant. Of course that just works so well. It made everything easier. And then the other is going, oh my God, no, I know my child can't handle that.
So yeah, you're always gonna look at that child in front of you. I think it's a great question, Izzy. Tina wrote in to ask about her 15 month old who has split nights where they're awake between two to three hours in the middle of the night. Tina says they want to support her when she wakes because her language skills have really taken off and she's starting to get lots of new teeth, but they're exhausted and wonder where they should start. What are you gonna say, Laura?
Dr Laura (23:09)
Yeah.
Oh.
Oh, Tina, my goodness. All right. So it really sounds like your daughter has biphasic nights, Tina. So being awake for that length of time in the middle of the night, every night, is just exhausting for everybody. I'm assuming that she's with now great new language skills. She's wanting to use those in the middle of the night, and is probably wanting to have nice, deep conversations with you for two to three hours.
Dr Fallon (23:41)
Yeah.
Yeah, and it can be hard not to reciprocate that when they're testing out those new skills.
Dr Laura (23:58)
Absolutely. I would be looking at her sleep diary, Tina, ordinarily when a child is awake for that length of time in the middle of the night. It's a circadian rhythm disturbance. We need to make sure that their sleep overnight is in line with what they actually need. So if your daughter is sleeping for like five hours,
Dr Fallon (24:17)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (24:21)
at the start of the night, then awake for two or three hours and then a sleeping for four hours after that. They may only have a nine hour sleep need in total. And so you'd want to have a bedtime and a wake up that just encompasses nine hours or maybe nine and a half hours. Um, only, um, it is exhausting. I can, um, I can only imagine Tina that you are absolutely shattered, but the good news is that biphasic nights are relatively quick to fix.
Dr Fallon (24:29)
Mmm.
Ahem.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (24:50)
once you have bedtime and wake up in line with their sleep need. Did you have anything else to suggest, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (24:50)
Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah, look, I would say when it comes to biphasic nights or split nights, it's always, always going to be a case of a sleep pressure problem. Essentially, if they're waking for two or three hours overnight, even if it's just some of the nights of the week, they're probably being offered too much opportunity to sleep. So they might be being offered more sleep than what they actually need. Sometimes they take that with day naps or a really long sleep in, and then that causes them to wake in the night with
Dr Laura (25:05)
Hehehe
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:23)
essentially very low sleep pressure and they want to test out things like their language skills. So definitely keep that sleep diary, work out your baby's average sleep need and then start to think about where you might need to adjust bedtime and wake up time and their day naps. And so often what we see in these particular families is that after having a split night where they're awake for a few hours
Dr Laura (25:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:45)
they go back to sleep and then often parents let them have a big sleep in because they had a terrible night, right? So I'm going to let them sleep in a little bit or we'll have a terrible day. That reinforces that, um, that timing difficulty that you're having. It tells their circadian rhythm. It's fine to wake up for two or three hours in the night, because we'll just have a long sleep in, or maybe we'll have a really long day nap or an extra day nap, or maybe it's an early bedtime. So decide on what daily rhythm you're going to follow, make sure it fits their unique sleep needs. And then.
Dr Laura (25:49)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (26:15)
follow it, even if there's a terrible night, you get them up on time, you push through because after a week, the problem's fixed. They're not going to have the split nights. They're going to have a really good predictable daily rhythm problem solved. So yeah, that's definitely how I'd approach it, Tina. So hang in there, work on that sleep diary and it should all start to come together.
Dr Laura (26:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Okay, Cecily has emailed us for advice for her five month old. She says they've been using the supported accelerated approach for 10 days and have had great success. Fantastic. Well done, Cecily. Her baby is settling without any fuss at night, wakes twice to feed, but settles quickly after these feeds. She has a sleep need of around 12 hours, so they offer two and a half hours total day sleep and her bedtime is 8pm, wake up time is 6.
Dr Fallon (26:48)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (27:03)
Cecily says we only do one cot nap a day in the morning. The rest are in the buggy or baby carrier. We find she still gets quite upset when we settle her for the nap in the cot. It generally doesn't take more than 10 minutes to get her to sleep, but she protests a lot. We put her down for her morning cot nap three hours after she wakes, so usually at 9 a.m. She doesn't generally seem tired any sooner.
We also have a consistent five to 10 minutes shortened bedtime routine for her nap. We wondered why she still protests being settled for her cot nap and if it is likely to get easier or if this is just the result of her being a FOMO baby with low sleep needs. Great questions.
Dr Fallon (27:46)
It's such, yeah, it's a great question, Cecily. There's a few things I'd say. The first one is that if it's not taking her more than 10 minutes to fall asleep for that nap, even if she is protesting a little bit, it's not necessarily a problem. She's still falling asleep pretty quickly. So you could decide to just change nothing. A 10 minute settle is still pretty good. And I think you've got the timing spot on. I love the daily rhythm you've come up with.
Dr Laura (28:01)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:10)
Um, if she's falling asleep in 10 minutes, you know, it's a good sign that she's actually ready for that sleep. And that's fantastic. I think she knows that in the daytime, most of my naps don't happen in the cot. So she knows that usually it's the carrier or the buggy. I love that. I'm guessing she's probably from the UK because I think buggy is a very UK thing. Is it Laura? Buggy. It's so cute. Much cuter than pram.
Dr Laura (28:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I didn't even pick up on it I was just thinking yeah baggy.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:37)
But yeah, I would say that, yeah, she's thinking, well, it's daytime. I know it's daytime. I like my nap in the buggy or in the carrier. And maybe if I protest a little bit, I might get out of this cot and be able to go and have one of those naps where there's lots of warmth and movement and that sort of thing. So I don't think you necessarily need to change anything, but if you are finding it really distressing, it could be that you say, okay, well, we're going to do the first nap and the lunch nap at home in the cot so that she gets a little bit more settled with.
Dr Laura (28:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (29:06)
with, um, yeah, settling in the cot. Um, yeah. So I hope that helps Cecily. Let us know how you go.
Dr Laura (29:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you've done a great job. Well done. Shall I read the next one, Fallon? Yeah. So Jackie has a question about how to shift from two naps to one nap. Her 11 month old is starting to push her naps later and is resisting settling for her naps. So Jackie feels like she's getting closer to moving to just one nap a day. She says that her daughter typically has an hour and a half nap in the morning and a 45 minute nap in the afternoon. When she moves to one day nap,
Dr Fallon (29:15)
Mmm.
Yeah, go for it.
Cough.
Dr Laura (29:40)
Jackie wants to know if it's best to aim for just a one and a half hour nap at midday and push the other 45 minutes of day sleep into her night time by bringing bedtime earlier, or whether she should encourage a two hour and 15 minutes of total daytime sleep and keep bedtime and wake up time the same. She wonders what tends to work best for other low sleep needs babies.
Dr Fallon (30:04)
Oh, another brilliant question. Um, I think overall most low sleep needs babies have this drive to experience everything and interact with everyone. They usually just, you know, would have less day sleep and have more awake time and more interaction time. Um, but every baby is different. So it doesn't necessarily mean that your baby will want that. Um, what would you say, Laura? I'd probably be thinking about the child's individual temperament. Would you be thinking of that?
Dr Laura (30:05)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, I would. If you have a FOMO low sleep needs baby, then she may just want to wake up after an hour and a half at midday. And it wouldn't matter what you do. She won't want to go back to sleep and have a longer nap, in which case you'd add that 45 minutes that's currently in the afternoon sleep to the bedtime sleep. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying initially to see if she will do that full.
Dr Fallon (30:40)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:57)
two hours, 15 minutes during the day. And she will soon show you if she is able to do that long day sleep or whether she just has no intention of doing it. So I guess when you make that decision that you're gonna move to the one daytime nap, you would be thinking, all right, I'm gonna pop her down at midday or as close to midday as you can get, and we will give her up to two hours, 15 minutes.
Dr Fallon (31:06)
Mm.
Cough cough.
Dr Laura (31:22)
If she wakes up after an hour and a half and still seems a little bit sleepy, then I would attempt to resettle her to see if she can go back to sleep and have that next sleep cycle in her cot. Try for about 20 minutes max. And if she goes back to sleep, brilliant. And then you'd, the bedtime would be 45 minutes later than it currently is. And then she's showing us that she can do it. But if she wakes up after an hour and a half and is just like, woohoo, done, thanks, get me up.
Dr Fallon (31:31)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (31:49)
then you just say, well, there's no point trying to resettle a happy content baby. So just get her up and then you just move bedtime a bit earlier. And over the first week, you'll probably get a sense of which way she's going to go. Yeah, what do you think Fallon?
Dr Fallon (31:54)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. And I think there are some families in the clinic where I would suggest one way or the other, particularly if the parents are saying, we just need more time to ourselves in the evening. Like if they're saying, bedtime's quite late, we're desperate to bring it earlier, then I would say, look, just cap that day nap at an hour and a half because.
Dr Laura (32:17)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (32:23)
Odds are within a week, she'll adapt to it. She'll get more sleep overnight, wake up more refreshed and cope a bit better with a slightly shorter day nap. So if you're in that situation, you've got the power to make a call on what you prefer and then go for it. Yeah, good. We also had an email come in from Claire. Claire says her two-year-old is napping for two hours in the daytime and sleeps for 10 hours overnight.
Dr Laura (32:26)
Mm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (32:47)
She'd like her daughter to go to bed earlier at 7 p.m. and wonders if she should reduce the length of her daughter's day nap to achieve this. So that's quite similar to what we're just talking about. So yeah, Claire absolutely can do that. And often that is the best way to do it. You just trim that day nap a little bit, they're a bit tired or a bit earlier in the evening. But Claire also wonders what she should do if her daughter wakes up early, sort of at around that 5 a.m. mark. Should she keep the usual nap time or bring the nap earlier?
Dr Laura (32:56)
Yeah it is.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (33:16)
And should she bring bedtime earlier that night? We've kind of touched on this too, haven't we?
Dr Laura (33:21)
Yeah, I wouldn't be bringing bedtime any earlier that night. I would be she's woken up at five. I'm assuming that you're aiming for at least a 6am wake up Claire. Although I do have some families that I'm working with who work in the trades or bakers who are very happy for their day to start at half five. But I'm assuming Claire you want a 6am start. So I would be trying to resettle her
Dr Fallon (33:26)
Mmm.
Hehe
Dr Laura (33:47)
but probably by about half past five, if she's just wanting to get up, then you're just starting the day horribly if you're gonna spend all of the rest of the time trying to resettle her. So I would just get her up. It's unlikely she's gonna make it until her usual nap time. Just try and stretch her a little bit. She might go down for her nap about half an hour earlier than normal on that day. And then she has a slightly longer stretch before bedtime that night. But what I'd want you to think about is that is her.
Dr Fallon (34:13)
Mm.
Dr Laura (34:16)
building her sleep pressure nice and high. And so then that means that she's more likely to be able to maintain her sleep until six o'clock the next morning. If you put her down a bit earlier, because she seems a bit cranky, what can start to happen is that you end up in this awful cycle where she just goes, or she runs out of sleep pressure at five o'clock every morning. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (34:32)
Yes.
Yes. And the circadian rhythm realizes it's fine to do this because I'll have an early nap and an earlier bedtime. And then I'll just keep waking up early again. So it can kind of begin that cycle that then just carries on. So I'd also say too, if you've got a child who's waking up much earlier than you want them to, even if they're wide awake, say it's 5.30, they're wide awake, the wake up time you want them to have is 6 a.m. You know, you're not going to be able to resettle them. What you don't want to do is something that's going to encourage that early wake up.
So don't think, oh, I'll just, um, maybe if it's a toddler, I'm going to give them the iPad. So I can have a lie for a little bit longer. Then they start to go, this is brilliant. If I wake up really early, I get a bit of, a bit of iPad time. Um, try to keep everything very boring, very dark, very quiet. Um, and then when that wake up time comes around, if it is 6 AM, turn on the lights, turn on some music, make some noise, you know, change that whole, um, feel of the room. And that's really going to help her circadian rhythm figure out. Okay. That.
Dr Laura (35:10)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (35:33)
5.30 a.m. not really my wake up time. It should be closer to 6 a.m. And there's nothing motivating to wake up at 5.30 either. Yes, it's something to keep in mind.
Dr Laura (35:36)
Yes.
All right, now on to our last question, Fallon. It's actually three questions. So Michaela has written to us and she has a 13 month old who has a 12 hour sleep need. Gosh, I think the last few questions that we've answered are from families with babies with 12 hour sleep needs, Fallon. So there must be something in the water this week. Oh, yeah, we have.
Dr Fallon (36:01)
Yes. And another Michaela as well. We've had a few Michaelas over the last few months.
Dr Laura (36:06)
So Michaela's 13 month old has a 12 hour sleep need and she no longer feeds overnight. Michaela has several questions. All right so her first one is it okay to drop night feeds at 13 months of age? Yes, yeah.
Dr Fallon (36:20)
Yes, yeah, 100%. Yes, so from around about the age of six months of age, most babies can actually adjust their calorie intake to make sure they get, it's a bit like sleep needs. They have a certain number of calories that they need per day. Babies are very good at making sure they reach that number of calories that they need. And if you start to reduce nighttime feeds, they'll take on more calories during the daytime to compensate. So by 13 months of age, absolutely,
Dr Laura (36:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:50)
is old enough that they can adjust their calories and take more during the day. So if you've dropped night feeds, yeah, that's 100% fine, perfectly fine.
Dr Laura (36:56)
Yeah. Michaela's next question is, is it okay to have a long wake window of seven to eight hours before bed? Her daughter is moving from two to one day naps. And Michaela wanted to know if this helps build sleep pressure or could it actually cause more problematic nighttime sleep?
Dr Fallon (37:15)
Yeah, it's really normal when you are trying to make a big shift, like going from two naps to one nap, that the amount of time your child spends awake is going to be a lot longer. Um, but that's sort of the point. They're dropping the nap because they're ready for it. Um, and that longer time awake you've got to remember it. This is the same for all humans. The longer you're awake for, the more your sleep hormones are building up in your system. If you're awake for a really long time, they're getting really, really high.
Dr Laura (37:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (37:41)
And we all know that feeling when our sleep hormones kind of peak. It's like when you're, I do this all the time, I'm watching a movie and I realise that I've had my eyes closed. It's when your brain just goes enough, you know, the sleep hormones are high enough, we need sleep now. Yes, so look, that that's going to be happening for your toddler, Michaela. And no, it's not going to cause more problematic night's sleep. If it was really random, you know, in terms of
Dr Laura (37:53)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (38:06)
how many day naps and how long they're awake for during the day. If that was changing really randomly all the time, that can cause disruptions that could cause nighttime wakeups. But I'm assuming you're not, you know, trying to have a really up and down and all over the place schedule. So, so yeah, you don't need to worry about a long wake window before bed. They get more and more capable of managing that the older they get. Hmm.
Dr Laura (38:12)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. And as you do make that transition from the two naps down to the one day nap, that day nap is going to start happening at a more and more predictable time during the day. So it might be happening at half past midday. And then you might find that your baby's awake six to seven hours before bed every day. And she's just going to get used to it.
Dr Fallon (38:39)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (38:52)
And you're going to be there to support her through that feeling initially of being what is this really tired feeling, I'm not quite used to it. Just think about taking her into, into company into water or into nature. Those are the three things we often talk about, isn't it Fallon, where we say, your child, we need to distract your child to keep them awake for a little bit longer to help them achieve a bedtime that's more in line with their sleep need, then
Dr Fallon (38:52)
Hmm.
Hehehehe
Yeah.
Dr Laura (39:18)
They may be a little bit cranky just for the first few days as they get used to it. So we just try and distract them as much as we can and give them lots of cuddles and let them know they're gonna be okay. Nothing bad is gonna happen by being awake for seven or eight hours. They'll get used to a more predictable schedule soon enough.
Dr Fallon (39:29)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. It just takes a bit of time to really get the wheels turning and for that rhythm to come about. Hmm.
Dr Laura (39:43)
Yeah, so Michaela's third question. She mentions that her daughter has extended nightwakes that last from one to three hours each. Oh, you should have a chat with the other parent that we answered. I think it was Tina's child. Yeah. So has those extended nightwakes that last from one to three hours each. These can happen regardless of whether her day sleep was very short or very long. And she wonders what this means.
Dr Fallon (39:52)
Hehehe
Yes, a few days. Yeah.
Dr Laura (40:09)
Ah, this is a brilliant question. And it's quite commonly asked, isn't it, Fallon, where I think what, what we tend to do as humans is we tend, we're always looking for patterns. It's the way that we are as human nature, we look for patterns. And one of the easiest patterns to look for is patterns that are across a short timeframe. So we look at when it comes to sleep, we're looking at across the day, oh, they had a short day nap.
Dr Fallon (40:09)
Mmm.
Mm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (40:36)
And then they slept badly overnight. Well, that must be because it was short day nap. And on other days they have a long day nap and they slept beautifully overnight. Well, that must be because sleep we get sleep. They've had a lovely long day sleep and that's promoting the nighttime sleep. But very slippery slope, isn't it Fallon? Because when it comes to sleep, we don't wanna be looking at a day-to-day correspondence. We need to be looking across a whole week. We need to look at a wider timeframe. Because...
Dr Fallon (40:41)
Hmm
Hehehehe
Mmmm
Oh yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
Dr Laura (41:05)
what Michaela you're describing there is you're on a roller coaster or your daughter's on a roller coaster with her sleep. So on days where she has a lot of daytime sleep and a lot of nighttime sleep, her sleep pressure then crashes and her body does an autocorrect. And if we think back to your point earlier, Fallon, about the baby or a
Dr Fallon (41:11)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (41:31)
Yeah, baby and toddler knowing, or their body knowing how to adjust calorie intake to ensure that they get all the nutrition they need. It's the same for sleep. And we're like these old fashioned balance scales I've been using to describe in clinic recently where your body or your child's body is constantly trying to get just the right amount of sleep. And some days it's a lot and some days it's not so much. And it always balances out.
Dr Fallon (41:44)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (41:59)
across a whole week at an average amount.
Dr Fallon (41:59)
Hmm. Yeah. And I think parents play an instrumental role in that. So, um, a lot of parents feel like they're kind of, um, they're being tossed around on tumultuous seas and they just have to roll with the punches and see what happens next with their child. You don't. If your child is having these really varied days and nights and lots of changes, the best thing you can do is decide on a daily rhythm that meets their average sleep need.
Dr Laura (42:27)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (42:27)
And then apply it very strictly. And there will be times when they might have a terrible night and you're still waking them up on time and you're not letting them sleep too long for their day nap. And have, it's going to feel really hard at first. And they might be really cranky with you. Could be really difficult to deal with. But over the course of a week, your child's circadian rhythm, because you're being so consistent with the timing, their circadian rhythm has that opportunity to learn and start to fall into a predictable rhythm. Whereas if you just.
Dr Laura (42:38)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (42:54)
go, oh, they seem tired, I'll let them nap longer, or they had a terrible night, I'll let them sleep in longer. It's never going to find that rhythm. So parents often have that instrumental role of trying to instill the rhythm. It might be that you try out a rhythm for a whole week before you truly know whether that's the right fit for your child. So decide on one thing, apply it consistently for a full week, and then you'll actually know if it fits them or not. At the end of that week, you might say, actually, I think they need a little bit less nap time.
Dr Laura (43:01)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (43:22)
or a slightly later bedtime, then you can make that one change for another week and see how it plays out. The worst thing we do can do as parents, I think for children with sleep problems is keep changing wake up time, bedtime, nap time, nap length, all the time trying to meet their needs because it's like you're throwing jigsaw piece puzzles up in the air. They're not going to land in the right place. It's okay to kind of take the reins and drive things a little bit to help them fall into that rhythm. It's better for them.
Dr Laura (43:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (43:51)
And it is so much better for the parents as well, because your own sleep is going to improve and you're gonna feel like you've got a better handle on things. So thanks so much for sending in those questions, Michaela. I just wanna say before we go, a really big thank you to all the parents who have waited really patiently for this episode, because we took that little break over Easter and it was such a nice break to get a bit more time with my kids.
Dr Laura (43:54)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (44:16)
It just meant that you guys had to wait a little bit longer to have your questions answered. And we really appreciate that. We really appreciated being able to get that time with our families. We also wanted to send out just a little reminder that when you first start Sombelle you'll probably have joined Sombelle and you've got a million questions and everything's wrong. And it might be really tempting to shoot us through an email going, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. What do I do? Where do I start? Take a big breath.
and start by just working through Sombelle. So work through Sombelle, start your sleep diary, start to even come up with a draft of your sleep and settling action plan. And then after about a week, then send us through an email with the questions you've got, it's a more effective way to do things because after you've read all the content and you've started to formulate that plan, you're going to know.
Dr Laura (44:45)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (45:08)
exactly what the unique hurdles are for your child. And then we're in a better position to answer those questions too, because you can tell us a bit about what you tried and how it went, and you're more likely to kind of have that success sooner rather than later. So do dive in and work through all the content. We've been getting quite a few questions where we think, oh, that's actually covered already. So make sure you've worked through each chapter. Yeah.
Dr Laura (45:11)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Dr Fallon (45:33)
Hmm. And we, you know, if you're listening in and you've got sleep and settling problems, and you're not a Sombelle member, it's a really good time to join. We're having another sale, and you can save up to $99 on your membership. So if you've been umming and ahhing, it's a pretty good time to join because we're being a little bit generous at the moment. So do jump onto that offer if you need it. And if you are a Sombelle member and you've got some questions you'd like answered.
next week, send them through, we would love to read them and love to respond to them. We're also doing a really big review going through all the Sombelle lessons and chapters over the next couple of weeks, really thinking about what are the common questions that have come up and where can we value add to the content that's already there. We're really committed to making sure Sombelle remains at the absolute forefront where we're always updating it with the best latest scientific knowledge.
all the best tips and tricks that we hand out in clinic. And also the fantastic feedback we get from parents, because parents often have their own tips and tricks that we love to share with others as well. If there's something you think, I wish Sombelle had a little bit more of this, please shoot us an email. We would love to hear it so we can make sure it stays the absolute best sleep program out there. Yeah.
Dr Laura (46:35)
Yes.
Yeah, definitely. And just a reminder also, if you are a Sombelle member and you have your action plan, you've been implementing it and you are coming across hurdles that you would like to talk through, then you can book in for coaching calls with either myself or Fallon. I have availability this coming week. So if you're, you know, you wake up in the morning and you think, oh, it's just something that's just not quite working and I...
Dr Fallon (47:01)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (47:12)
really would love to run this past an expert, then you can go onto your Sombelle dashboard and book a coaching call and in all likelihood, you'll be able to book in to see one of us in the next couple of days, send through your child's sleep diary and a picture of your action plan beforehand so that I can or Fallon can just open it and have it there handy during the appointment. And we can then have a lovely.
Dr Fallon (47:25)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (47:38)
discussion and do some quick troubleshooting with you. Fallon and I have been helping hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of families. There isn't a sleep problem we haven't seen. And often, you know, just in that 25 minute call, we can just, you know, listen to what's been happening. And we can just pinpoint exactly where we need to make a little bit of an adjustment. And then you can carry on your merry way and likely see the major improvements that you were hoping for.
Dr Fallon (47:42)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. So often it's just a few little minor tweaks and then families are off and away and it's problem solved. Um, and you know, we know that about 90% of Sombelle members find that the program itself is enough. It's all that they needed. It works. It's doing really well. There's always going to be around about that 10% that have, you know, a particularly tricky problem. Um, or they're just feeling really lost and just feeling like they really need support. So if you're falling into that tricky category or you're wanting more support.
Um, yeah, highly recommended coaching call. Um, it's amazing what we can achieve during those calls. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much everyone for tuning in. I'm always just amazed at how many new members we have, but also how many new subscribers we have to the podcast. Um, we appreciate each and every one of you and we hope you have a really wonderful week you'll hear from us next week.
Dr Laura (48:39)
Yeah.
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
