Dr Fallon (00:00)
Hi listeners, we want to start this week by acknowledging that on the day we record this episode, it's only two days since the terrible incident that happened at Bondi Junction. We know there's a lot of pain and hurt being felt in Australian communities at the moment, but in particular amongst mothers and parents of little people.
Dr Laura (00:20)
Yeah, and it's really important at this point to think about all of the support networks that you have around you. If you're feeling extra vulnerable right now, think about your parenting group, your friends, family, that you can lean on at this time, and also make use of the wonderful helplines that are available in Australia, such as the PANDA helpline, the maternal and child health line, Lifeline.
And we can put those numbers in our show notes. So if you feel that you need a bit of extra support, you can see those numbers easily.
Dr Fallon (01:39)
Hi everyone and welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a particular focus on sleep and crying and all the ups and downs that comes with settling our little people across those first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with my co -host, Dr. Laura Conway. Hey Laura.
Dr Laura (02:00)
Hi Fallon, how are you going?
Dr Fallon (02:02)
Yeah, really good. Really, really good. One of the things I wanted to ask you about this week, Laura, because so many parents do ask us about this. And I know that you have a special skill set in this area is, you know, toddlers, so often toddlers have this really challenging periods of behavior. It might be in the lead up to bedtime or right at bedtime. It could be that they are so mad, so cranky.
Dr Laura (02:16)
You
Dr Fallon (02:28)
or just super wound up and really hyperactive. And so parents say to us, how on earth do I get this furious or, you know, super highly energetic child to ever calm down enough for bed? And we've chatted about this before because it is just so interesting, but tell me, what do you suggest to families who have these sorts of toddlers?
Dr Laura (02:47)
Yeah, well, of course, it goes without saying, Fallon, and for frequent listeners of the podcast, they'll know that we always advise checking what your toddler's sleep needs are, so that you're not attempting to put them to bed before they are ready to go to sleep. But assuming that that is all under control, and you've got a good bedtime, some families simply still have toddlers who are really wound up and they just go, go, go, go, go until...
it's time for them to fall asleep. So what I suggest doing is introducing some activities in the bedtime routine that can help your toddler calm down. They don't even realize that these games are gonna help them calm down. And in fact, some parents look at me like I'm a little bit mad when I describe some of these games because they think, oh, surely that's actually an exciting game and isn't going to cause the children to calm.
Dr Fallon (03:17)
You
Hehehehe.
Dr Laura (03:45)
But the trick of these calming games at bedtime is to apply some deep pressure to your toddlers' bodies because that can trigger a calming response in their bodies. So the two kind of really well used and well known games at bedtime, there's one called the Bedtime Burrito and there's another one called the Bedtime Sillies.
And the rationale behind both of them is that you're applying this deep pressure to your toddler's bodies. And when you start down at their toes and work all the way up their bodies, you're actually helping them do a body scan without them realising it.
Dr Fallon (04:34)
Yes, that's amazing. I could almost hear the parents of toddlers going and getting a notepad and pen. Okay, what do I do? Tell me Laura, what do I do? So talk us through maybe like the bedtime burrito one. I love this one.
Dr Laura (04:41)
So if we
Yeah, so if it's in wintertime, which we are going into now in the southern part of Australia, you could think about getting a blanket or a big towel off the radiator or out of the tumble dryer so it's nice and warm, and then lay it down on the floor and then ask your toddler to lie on it and then roll them up like a sausage or like a burrito with their head free, of course.
Dr Fallon (05:16)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (05:17)
And so it's like swaddling a toddler and it's giving them that deep pressure in their bodies. And then what you can do is take a pillow or a cushion and starting down at their feet, you push down on their body and you say the name of the body part. So you can say, oh, there's a bit of lettuce escaping from between your toes and you press the pillow down.
Dr Fallon (05:41)
Ha ha ha ha.
Dr Laura (05:43)
And then you move up and you say, there's a bit of tomato coming out from between your calves. And you press the pillow down and you go all the way up the body like that. And your toddler will be squealing with laughter and thinking this is just hilarious. They've got the warmth if you have managed to heat up the blanket. They've got the tightness, which is just triggering that calming response in their body. And then you've got the action of the deep pressure.
Dr Fallon (05:54)
Yep.
Yes.
Mm.
Dr Laura (06:13)
that you're putting on their body as you move the pillow up. And that's bringing their attention to the different body parts. So they starting to feel what their feet are feeling, feel what their legs are feeling, what their knees are feeling, what their thighs are feeling, et cetera. And it takes their attention from being all over. And do I want to do this? Do I want to do that? Do I want to run up the hallway? Do I want to run down the stairs to my body right now?
Dr Fallon (06:25)
Yes.
Hmm.
I love that it's like guided meditation, but for toddlers, you know, it's, it's fantastic. Yeah. So I love that because for so many toddlers, the minute they realize you're trying to do something, that's when they'll push back. So it's a little bit sneaky, but in a, in a good way. Yeah. Fantastic.
Dr Laura (06:45)
for toddlers and they don't realize they're doing it. Yeah.
Yeah, and you're not saying just sit down, sit down, come and sit down and read this book with me, or come and sit down and do some colouring, or come and just do this puzzle with me, because that's asking a lot of some toddlers to come and sit down quietly. So instead, we are getting them to come and lie down quietly. And we're containing them in their bedroom, or some parents might do this out in the living room.
Dr Fallon (07:03)
Mmm. Yep.
Yes.
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (07:26)
And it just stops that darting around. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:30)
Love it. It's just fantastic. Such a good idea. I saw a sort of similar idea on this. I think it was on TikTok the other day and I can't remember whose video it was, so I can't give due credit. But it was a grandmother who was helping her toddler grandchildren get ready for bed. And they were both lying on the couch on their backs, but they kind of had their feet, the soles of their feet were pressing against each other. So the soles of her feet were pressing on the toddler's little feet. And they were kind of pushing their legs backwards and forwards one at a time, sort of.
Dr Laura (07:52)
Yes.
Oh, like bicycle, they were doing their bicycle cycling. Yes. Yeah, yes.
Dr Fallon (07:59)
Yeah, like bicycle legs. Yeah, absolutely. And that's another great way to just put that, that deep pressure on the soles of the feet and, and yeah, they are actually lying still and it's, yeah, I just, I love it. I think these sorts of ideas are so good. What was that other approach you were talking about earlier?
Dr Laura (08:06)
Yes.
Yeah.
The other one is the Bedtime Sillies. And these are games that do come from OTs, Occupational Therapists. And I have seen that same real Fallon that you just described with the cycling. And that is an OT account. We should, I'll have a look afterwards and see if I can see who it is, because then we can give her credit in our show notes. So the other game is Bedtime Sillies, which again is a way of doing the body scan. So at
Dr Fallon (08:25)
Mmm.
Ah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (08:44)
Bedtime when your toddler is still full of beans, you can say, I can see your body is full of bedtime sillies. Let me help you with those. And you start down at their feet. So get them to sit on the bed or the floor and squeeze their toes. And then you go, Oh, it's like you're pulling all the sillies out and then you shake them away. And there were a lot of sillies in your toes. Let's see how many are in your feet.
Dr Fallon (08:52)
Hehehehe. Hehehehe.
Dr Laura (09:14)
and squeeze the feet and shake them out. Now the really good thing about the bedtime sillies game is that your toddler or preschooler can do it to you as well. So you take it in turns and it's that co -regulation, which is also what's happening with that bedtime bicycles that you just described where both you're doing this with the child and they're doing it back to you. And it's
Dr Fallon (09:16)
gorgeous.
Ah, yes.
Beautiful.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (09:41)
the co -regulation. So you're there together and you're bringing your child's energy down as well. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:48)
I love it and it creates such special moments of connection. And we know that that's really important too, because there's actually been research showing that parents emotional availability at bedtime can help children sleep better. So what that essentially means is when you are there and you're talking to your child and you're, you know, I always say to parents, tell your children as you're tucking them in all the lovely things, tell them how much they are loved and how special they are. And
Dr Laura (10:03)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (10:17)
how wonderful it was than the day when they first got to meet you. Having those conversations, being available is a great way for a child to start the night. They're less likely to be worried about things and more likely to go, oh, I am so loved. I've just had this wonderful connection with my parent and my body feels ready now to sleep and switch off. I just think that is absolutely fantastic. Do you have any tips, Laura, for parents where their toddlers are...
Dr Laura (10:21)
Yes.
Yes! Yeah!
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (10:46)
I suppose you've touched on this earlier, because so often sleep pressure does factor into this, but where their toddlers are just furious and they're screaming their heads off, they're really upset. You know, is there benefit in trying to kind of, like, would you suggest, I know with babies, we would say, you know, take them into a dark room and really turn down all the stimulation and help them sort of down regulate. Would you do something similar with a toddler?
Dr Laura (11:09)
Yes, what I will often suggest to parents is that if this has been an ongoing behaviour, to think about adding in some what are known as heavy work activities earlier on in the evening. So not at bedtime, but we think about laying some foundations in preparation for bedtime, which may be a couple of hours away yet. And when
Dr Fallon (11:23)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (11:35)
when you bring your child home from daycare or kinder if they're attending some out of home care, or if you just bring in them home after you've been out to the shops, think about bringing in some heavy work activities which involve multiple joints and muscle groups in your toddlers' bodies. And what that can do is it...
gives your child proprioceptive input, which is really important to help bring a child back into their bodies as well. But it's much more energetic than what we were doing at bedtime. And examples would include laying out some cushions across the floor and asking your toddler or preschooler to jump from cushion to cushion, like the floor is lava, because that's involving a lot of body parts. I'm jumping like a frog from one to the next.
Or having a game of tug of war. That can be good for if you've got twins, then getting both of the twins involved. Having some wrestling. And you can see why this isn't close to bedtime. You don't want to be wrestling close to bedtime. Or if you have a trampoline available at home, jumping on the trampoline gives great proprioceptive input. If you're living in a...
Dr Fallon (12:44)
Hehehehe.
you
Dr Laura (12:57)
in a home that has a swimming pool, wonderful. Swimming is also really good for heavy work activities. Another good one is, which doesn't really matter what kind of house you're in, if you have a laundry basket pile it high with laundry, towels, and then get your toddler to push it up and down the hallway or up and down the sitting room. What we're looking at doing is engaging your toddler and pushing and
pulling activities. And that helps give them that input that they need, which can lay the foundations for them calming later on that night. So yeah, if you are having problems with your really furious child, think about introducing those heavy work activity games earlier on in the evening. Again, there are lots of OT accounts that have really good
Dr Fallon (13:40)
Brilliant.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (13:56)
descriptions of heavy work activities that you could, as you know, if you're listening to this, you're thinking, Oh, that sounds like what my toddler needs. Have a Google heavy work activities, and then pick ones that you think are going to suit your toddler. And that will suit where you live and what's available for you in your house. And think about introducing those earlier on in the evening. If you
Dr Fallon (14:11)
Yep.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (14:20)
toddler is still really furious at bedtime, yet it can be a really good idea to have a circuit breaker. So when you're taking your child to bed, if the toddler is just really upset and lashing out, then what we don't want to do is kind of the old school, what grandma might say, we'll put them in the room and shut the door, because that behavior is telling us something. And your toddler needs to learn.
Dr Fallon (14:43)
Mm. Yep.
Dr Laura (14:49)
that or needs to know that you're always going to be there for them, even when they're having these big emotions in their little bodies. So a circuit breaker might involve just saying, okay, it's not working right now. Let's go out into the living room or open the blinds, look out at the moon and the stars, even go out into the back garden holding.
Dr Fallon (14:57)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (15:12)
your toddler close. If they're really lashing out, think about holding them in a bear hug where you put them, sit them on your lap facing outwards and then put your arms around them so that you're stopping them from hurting themselves or hurting you and you're giving them that deep pressure on your lap. And when you feel them calming, you can see if you can take your arms off and see how they're reacting then.
And with that co -regulation of you staying calm, there's some lovely posts online about being the calm ship in the furious sea. And your toddler is a furious sea and you're the calm ship and you try and hold them close, wait for them to calm and then say, okay, now it's time to go back to bedtime.
Dr Fallon (15:49)
Hmm.
Yes.
I love that. And I think it's, it's really useful advice to parents because sometimes we can't control our toddler's behavior. They are just so worked up and there's not going to be a magic trick that's going to work. So as a parent, your sole job is to sit there and weather that storm, show them that you'll be there beside them, calmly waiting for those big feelings to pass. You're there to offer comfort when they need it.
Dr Laura (16:15)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (16:32)
And when those big feelings do pass and they always do, that's when you might go, okay, now we move on to the next part of the bedtime routine. You know, we're ready for sleep now. Yeah. And I look, I really, I love that. I think that's such great advice, Laura.
Dr Laura (16:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you. And Fallon, we've just been talking a lot about toddlers. So tell me, what are your tips and tricks for parents of babies who are just really dysregulated, really unsettled when you're trying to put them to sleep?
Dr Fallon (16:50)
Mmm.
Yeah.
It's really hard when it's a little baby and we know that, you know, most babies are going to have a lot of crying during those first few months. You've probably heard about purple crying. But if you are a parent with a little baby who cries a lot and you haven't heard of purple crying, definitely go and Google it and read a little bit about it. But essentially all babies have this period in the first few months where they cry a lot. It's not always crying that you can soothe.
Dr Laura (17:24)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (17:27)
Um, and yeah, some of our members who are part of the baby program can go and download their crying baby checklist, which will give you some, some different strategies you can work through and things to check off. But assuming that your baby is not unwell, you know, they're fed, they should be comfortable and warm. Their nappies change. They don't have a temperature. If they're just having a big old cry and you're thinking, gosh, I really need to help them calm down now. Um, one of the best things we can do is sort of similar to the toddlers, um, advice in some ways is.
creating that kind of deep pressure. Obviously we're very careful about how we do that with babies. If you've got a very little baby, one of the most obvious ways you could do that would be to swaddle them. So always making sure the swaddle is reasonably firm. Even if they don't have a swaddle for sleep ordinarily, so even if they sleep in like a little sleeping bag or sleep sack, if they really wound up, you might still pull out something like a muslin wrap.
Dr Laura (18:07)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (18:21)
Um, and have a go at wrapping them up because creating that sort of not tight, but just firm pressure around their body is incredibly comforting because in the womb, that's what they felt. There was that consistent pressure all the way around the body and that real sense of containment can help. Um, but I think what's really key is that there's no real quick fix. You know, you might have to wrap them up in a swaddle and after three or four minutes, you're thinking, this is not doing anything, but try and keep them in this swaddle for.
Dr Laura (18:27)
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (18:52)
know, 10 minutes or so, because often it takes 10 minutes of something staying the same for a baby to kind of go, oh, okay, this is okay. I'm contained. This actually feels quite secure and comforting. So with anything you try, try and give it 10 minutes of just doing one thing. Some parents of little babies, they go, oh, we will try the swaddle. Oh, didn't work. Let's try humming. Oh, didn't work. Let's try white noise or something.
Dr Laura (18:57)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (19:16)
That's really confusing and very unsettling because babies don't like it when things change all the time, even though our hearts are in the right place as parents and we're just trying out all the things, pick something and stick with it really consistently. So.
Dr Laura (19:19)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, these poor babies getting more and more wound up despite, you know, they don't understand that we're doing our best. But this baby is just having a moment where she or he is having someone suitable crying. And during that time, they're being put on the change mat, their nappy is being checked, then they're being burped over the shoulder and then burped over the knee and then they're being
Dr Fallon (19:32)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yes
Dr Laura (19:55)
moved into a different nappy and then be moved into a different set of clothes and all of it is coming from the right place because as parents we desperately want to bring that crying to an end and we're doing everything we can to stop the crying and I think just doing what you were just suggesting there, Fala, and just pausing and giving enough time for each of those new things that you're trying to work.
Dr Fallon (20:00)
Yes.
I'm sorry.
you
Yeah.
Dr Laura (20:25)
say, okay, well, this is 10 minutes. I know that 10 minutes of crying can feel like 10 hours. And the next day, you'll, well, you just won't even, you know, even a few hours later, you'll think, oh, gosh, that was hard, but it's over. And just having that time and letting your baby calm in when you're staying consistent and confident.
Dr Fallon (20:25)
Yeah, absolutely.
Hmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (20:55)
is the best thing that you can do.
Dr Fallon (20:56)
Yeah, yeah, the best way through it is to just have that consistency for at least 10 minutes. And I think often when babies are crying like this, they're really overwrought or sometimes really overstimulated too. So I would definitely be looking at taking them into a dark room. So it just feels very dark and very calm. Think about what sounds you play. So for some babies, just a parent shushing over and over again, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh,
Dr Laura (21:21)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (21:23)
But for others, actually hearing something different can be useful. So some parents will play some of that beautiful, gentle, soft nursery kind of music that you can get. Some babies need that little bit of a distraction. They sort of stop crying because they go, oh, what's that sound? Well, that's lovely. And they need to stop crying to hear it. So it could be that you try some music or it might be that you try the shushing, but either way, 10 minutes of just that one thing in the dark room.
Dr Laura (21:38)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (21:48)
And when we say to, you know, swaddle them for older babies, you won't be swaddling them anymore, but you might still wrap them up in a blanket. So you're just creating that sense of real closeness. And I would suggest holding them over, putting them in a pram. So obviously if you're at the end of your tether and you're exhausted, pop them in the pram in that dark room and you can rock it backwards and forwards and that's fine. But if you feel up to it, hold your baby, rock side to side.
Dr Laura (21:57)
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (22:13)
you might do some really steady padding while you're holding them. Or if you're in a rocking chair, it might be that you rock backwards and forwards. But when you decide on those things you're going to do, and you can even get a pen and paper and jot it down now, what you're going to do if you've got a pocket of really tricky crying to deal with, then you can sort of go to those things. And when you hit one of those tricky periods, you've got your list on your fridge or whatever of everything you're going to do. And if someone else is caring for your baby, they can also do those things as well.
But what you're doing for your babies, you're removing all the stimulation and you're providing something very calm and very reassuring that mimics their experience from the womb as well. So I would say think about those sorts of things is sometimes it's just, it's a bit different to what you do with toddlers because you're kind of wanting to remove stimulation rather than provide more. And yeah, I think it just comes down to a little bit of experimenting and knowing that if your baby is still in that very young phase in those first few months,
Dr Laura (23:01)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (23:08)
there will be times when you would try all of that and Laura and I could stand there and try all of those things we've just suggested and it won't work. And that is not a reflection on your ability as a parent at all. It's just, it's just what babies do and they do it in every single culture around the world. It is just, it's really just what humans, human babies do. It's got nothing to do with the approach that you're necessarily taking. They will all have some crying that just resists soothing.
Dr Laura (23:13)
Oh yeah!
Mm -hmm.
No.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (23:37)
and we just have to ride that out. So that's where you would definitely wanna pull on all the supports that you've got around you. It might be that you've got someone who can come and just hold the baby for a little while so you can step outside. Or if you're really, really struggling, there's nothing wrong with putting your baby down in a safe place like they're caught and just stepping outside for a few minutes so that you can calm down. If you're feeling really angry and frustrated, you're probably not in a good position to be able to calm your baby.
Dr Laura (23:58)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (24:05)
So calming yourself first and then approaching settling again is a really a good way to tackle it.
Dr Laura (24:12)
Yeah, I think that's great advice. And I so often, and you as well, Falon, would be in this position speaking to families who are coming to see us and they're on their second or third, fourth, sometimes child. And they never experienced this particular level of crying with their previous children. And they're doing everything exactly the same. And each child is a bit different. So,
Dr Fallon (24:26)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, same great parenting, but different baby. And that's all there is to it. And there's not a lot you can do. Um, but yeah, write it out and make sure you've got that support around you. Hmm. Good. Well, look, we've had a few questions come in and some really interesting ones, Laura. So I thought perhaps we could start with Fiona. So Fiona wrote in and said, I absolutely love the podcast and the program. Thank you, Fiona.
Dr Laura (24:41)
Yep.
Yeah.
Ah, thank you.
Dr Fallon (25:06)
She says I'm struggling with our daily rhythm. My daughter has suddenly stopped linking sleep cycles for her first nap and is only napping for 30 minutes. If she wakes from her first nap at 8 30 a .m. instead of 9 30 a .m. Should I bring the next nap forward an hour or should I try to stretch her to her next nap time? She says I've tried to keep the next nap at the original time, but she just can't stay awake for the extra hour.
Look, I feel like with this question, Laura, it sort of depends a little bit on the age of the baby in a way, but what would you say?
Dr Laura (25:40)
Yes. Yeah. I would love to know how old Fiona's baby is. So she stopped linking her sleep cycles for her first nap and is only napping for 30 minutes. Okay. Listen, if your baby is finding it really hard to stick with the time that she previously had her second nap at and that's because she's having less sleep for that first nap.
she's a little bit younger, yeah, I'd be saying don't, you know, the time of the nap is not your hill to die on. So bring that second nap earlier. And it may be that your baby then links a sleep cycle for that second nap. And she's then going to have a longer second nap.
Dr Fallon (26:15)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (26:32)
And then you'd be looking at, excuse me, keeping bedtime roughly similar. What we find as babies get older is that they start to have that longer stretch of awake time between their last nap and bedtime. And this might be what's happening with your baby Fiona that they, that you'll find that she starts to be able to stay awake for three, four, five, I don't know how old the baby is. So I'm not sure, but stay awake for a longer period of time before bed.
Dr Fallon (26:59)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (27:01)
If Fiona, your baby is actually a little bit older, then and is getting to the point where she may be dropping a nap, probably take a slightly different angle. So it may be Fiona, your baby is, you know, maybe she's a seven months and is going to be ready to drop to two naps.
Dr Fallon (27:18)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (27:27)
And if you do put the second, bring the second nap a bit earlier, it's then going to be a bit hard to stretch her into a bedtime. Then I would think about, well, let's try for a whole week to get to that later nap time to just see if she can get used to it because it may be that she's going to be ready to drop a third nap. And then it's going to start to be able to stay awake a bit longer.
Dr Fallon (27:35)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (27:56)
before she goes to bed at night. Fallon, I feel like I made a bit of a dog's breakfast of that answer. What would you add? Help me summarise.
Dr Fallon (28:02)
No, I think, no, I think it's a good answer. Look, no, I think, I think you've done a really good job. I was just thinking, you know, sometimes babies do this. They, they go from having a great long nap and then suddenly it becomes short. And sometimes it's because they're getting older and they're actually needing a bit less day sleep. And so they might be moving, like you said, Laura, towards having one fewer day nap and how they're going to have to do that is to push each nap a little bit later.
Dr Laura (28:31)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (28:32)
So if for example, that first nap is pushed out a little bit later, there's higher sleep pressure and your baby might be more likely to then link their sleep cycles again. So sometimes that's what they're doing. They're pushing their naps a little bit later and then pretty soon they end up dropping one. So I think there's a few things there to think about for you. But yeah, like Laura said, I wouldn't worry so much about the exact time the naps happen at.
Dr Laura (28:42)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (28:58)
just be thinking about what is the total amount of day sleep that you're aiming for, assuming you've worked through the unique sleep needs chapter and you know what your baby's unique sleep needs are, build out a schedule that's based around those sleep needs and then be thinking, well, what's the maximum amount of day sleep that my baby can have? If the nap times move a little bit, I wouldn't be that worried. Just make sure there's no napping too close to bedtime and that you don't exceed that daily maximum. Excuse me.
Dr Laura (29:20)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, and if she starts to stay awake a bit longer before she goes down for the first nap, yeah, she might actually go back to linking a sleep cycle. Again, I wonder maybe if Fiona is sticking hard and fast to that first nap time. And actually, maybe your baby needs to be awake for a little bit longer before that first nap. So if you push that a bit later, she might link the sleep cycle again.
Dr Fallon (29:34)
Hmm.
Yeah, and
Yeah, I'm often really flexible in the clinic too with families. They say, okay, exactly what time should I put them down for a nap? But I'm like, I'm not so worried about it actually, especially once they're on two naps. I'm like, that's fine to have a bit of flexibility. It doesn't matter a great deal provided they're not overdoing the total sleep time and they're not napping too close to bedtime. And they're really the key things I'd be looking at. Um, yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (29:56)
Mm.
Yeah.
Good. All right. Shall I read the next question from Kayla? So Kayla has a question about completing the sleep diary. She says she's always woken her baby from their naps, but whilst completing the sleep diary, she wonders whether she should just let her baby sleep as much as she likes in order to get an accurate picture of her unique sleep needs, or is it better to just maintain her usual sleep patterns?
Dr Fallon (30:35)
Yeah, definitely maintain the usual sleep patterns for this one, because Kayleigh, your baby understands probably, or their circadian rhythm has picked up that those day naps tend to be capped at a particular amount. And you're probably doing that to keep your baby's nights on track. So that's a very good idea to do that. But their circadian rhythm understands those parameters that you've put in place for the naps and will be ensuring that it's getting all the sleep it needs in other places. So it might be that it's having longer nights. So.
Dr Laura (31:01)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (31:04)
If you suddenly just let those naps go for as long as you know, they want to odds are the nights are going to become more challenging. You're still probably going to end up with the same average sleep duration in the sleep diary because a baby's drive to sleep and a drive to meet their sleep needs is incredibly strong. So I would say just sort of stay the course, keep doing what you've been doing while you get that measure on how much sleep they're averaging. Yeah.
Dr Laura (31:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's great advice. I almost called you Kayla there, Fallon. That's great advice for Kayla from Fallon.
Dr Fallon (31:37)
And Laura, we had a really interesting question coming from Sam and I love this question. It's one of these questions that sent me on a deep drive into the scientific literature and these are my favorites to answer. So thank you, Sam, for keeping me on my toes. So Sam says, she's the mum of two low -sleep needs children. Her eldest is nearly three and her youngest is just four months.
Dr Laura (31:56)
Hahaha!
Dr Fallon (32:06)
And she says, we saw Dr. Laura for our eldest in the clinic nearly two years ago and it was the best thing. Yeah. She says we joined some valve to help with our four month old. So Sam would like to know, do low sleep needs children tend to continue to need less sleep or less and less sleep as they get older or can their total sleep needs fluctuate?
Dr Laura (32:13)
That's great to hear.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (32:31)
So Sam says her eldest needed about 12 hours sleep when she was one year old. By 18 months, she dropped to about 11 and a half hours of sleep. And more recently when she dropped her day nap, she started to average 10 and a half hours of sleep per 24 hours. Sam would like to know at some point, does sleep needs level out or even increase? Sam feels like kinder and school will provide more cognitive load for her daughter and so she'll need more sleep. But is that actually likely?
Dr Laura (33:00)
Yeah, oh my goodness, what an amazing question. So good. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (33:05)
Yeah. Yeah. The first thing I thought was what's their mood like? Is that where your mind went Laura?
Dr Laura (33:10)
Yeah, yeah. The way that we always come back to when we're thinking about is my child getting enough sleep is how are they functioning during the day. Sam, it sounds like your eldest daughter is on a trajectory of falling sleep needs. You haven't said anything in there about how she's waking frequently overnight or has fragmented sleep at all. So assuming that her sleep is still high quality.
Dr Fallon (33:22)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (33:41)
she's still sleeping well overnight, then I would be looking to say if she's generally well functioning, well happy, sociable within the realms of whether she's an introvert or extrovert, then I would say well she's getting all of the sleep that she needs. If you are finding that actually she's sleeping well overnight but is very tired during the day,
Dr Fallon (34:01)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (34:09)
It's really struggling to make it through the day. Grumpy, her behaviour is a bit dysregulated. You're getting reports from daycare that she's lashing out at other children and it's out of character for her. Then I'd be thinking, well, it may be actually that her sleep needs are now a bit higher and you could look at increasing the length of time that she's in bed overnight, offering her a bit more sleep to see if she can achieve it.
What we know is that the drive to sleep is such that all of us will usually across the whole week get the sleep that we need unless there's something we've got a sleep disorder or there's something biological going on medical going on. So if you were to offer her more sleep, and it might just be given that she's a lower sleep need at 10 and a half hours on average now, you might just offer her an extra 15 minutes.
Dr Fallon (34:39)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (35:07)
and see if she can sleep an extra 15 minutes every day for like three days in a row. And if she can, then say, okay, well, now we'll increase a little bit more, let's give her another 15 minutes and see if she can maintain her sleep for all of that time for three days in a row. And essentially, you just keep going. You just say, you just keep adding a little bit more, a little bit more until she's no longer able to maintain her sleep overnight, or her mood improves.
Dr Fallon (35:22)
Mmm.
I think that's good advice for, yeah, for parents of babies and toddlers. If you have been having a really strict bedtime and wake up time and everything's going beautifully, they've been sleeping well for a few weeks, definitely trial adding in a little bit more sleep to that schedule. And you'll find a tipping point. You'll find a point where you go, ah, no, we added 30 minutes extra opportunity to sleep and now we're having split nights or they're waking up a lot. You'll know when you reach that point. So I think that is important to think about.
Dr Laura (35:49)
Yes.
Yes.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (36:01)
And back to that part of Sam's question where she's asking about do sleep needs fluctuate? Like is a low sleep needs baby always a low sleep needs baby? Are they a low sleep needs toddler as well? Or will sleep increase? How do things change? It's a fascinating question. And there's not a lot of research that has specifically looked at trajectories of sleep duration from babyhood through to toddlerhood. But there have been a couple that have suggested that there are...
There are some very high sleep needs babies that have a drastic plummet in how much sleep they need over the course of the first couple of years where it really starts to lower down pretty quickly. There are some who have an average sleep need and it just sits really, really steady. There are others who have a low sleep need and it actually does increase over time. So they could be the babies where the way they're falling asleep is really impacting their ability to meet their sleep need.
Dr Laura (36:41)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:59)
maybe when they gain skills like how to self settle and calm themselves to sleep, it might be that then they suddenly can manage to get more sleep. So then that sleep duration does go up. But there are definitely some babies who have that low sleep need and they are low sleep need toddlers as well. I think what's helpful to keep in mind, you know, it's definitely what you were talking about Laura with the mood. So it's impossible to know which of those trajectories your particular baby or toddler is on. So looking at their mood is so important because if they're happy and
Dr Laura (37:09)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (37:28)
you know, doing really well, who cares? It just doesn't matter. They're getting the sleep that they need. But I would say overall, what we see in the data is that all children, whether they start out with a high or a low sleep me, they're ending up at a fairly similar point around that two to three year age of age mark. They're generally falling somewhere between about 10 and a half hours of sleep and about 12 and a half hours of sleep.
Dr Laura (37:30)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (37:55)
And that there's this very, that's a very broad range. If your baby, your baby could fall or your toddler could fall outside of that range and still be completely healthy and normal. But I think they're all going to a reasonably similar place. And a lot of children who start school who are low sleep needs babies, they have gone on to have just the typical amount of sleep. So they're all off starting school, maybe needing around about 10 or 11 hours of sleep at night, which is actually really normal for that age.
Dr Laura (38:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (38:25)
So we're all gonna have sort of different pathways. Some of us are gonna have high sleep needs babies that, you know, it's like you got to hold on tight to that roller coaster because it drops down really, really quickly and others are just going to kind of plod along where they're at. And there's really no need to worry too much about that. Sam's daughter might find that when she starts going to kinder or school and is extra busy, maybe she will increase her sleep slightly, but.
I would say generally we don't see massive changes. It's unlikely she'd suddenly sleep an extra two hours every single day. It might just be.
Dr Laura (38:56)
No, no, it may be an extra half an hour or possibly an hour, but even an hour might be pushing it. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (39:02)
Yeah.
Yeah, often it's just like one more sleep cycle that they'll sometimes be able to fit into the schedule.
Dr Laura (39:11)
Yeah, what a wonderful question. Thank you, Sam. It caused Fallon to head down a rabbit hole, which I'm intending on joining her in this afternoon when I read the paper too. We were both dusting off our stats, knowledge and latent class analysis. We were, oh, yeah.
Dr Fallon (39:20)
Yes.
Yes, we were. And that particular paper was picking apart the sort of associations between different sleep trajectories and cognitions of how children are kind of developing in their learning and all that sort of thing. So that's something we will definitely be diving into as part of our own professional development is looking at things like, is it better to have a longer day nap and a shorter total nighttime sleep duration?
or better to keep the nap quite short and aim for as much sleep at night time as possible. And our knowledge is always, always being shaped by the science so that we can give the best advice we can, both in the clinic, but also in Sombelle. So we do update Sombelle quite a lot and members will know there's been a couple of new lessons added lately, just to make sure we're always meeting parents where they're at and with what they need to help sleep be as good as it can.
Dr Laura (40:00)
Mmm.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Fallon (40:25)
Yeah, I think this has been a really lovely episode and yeah, brilliant questions from our Sombelle members. If you're a Sombelle member and maybe you've got a question, please send it through to us. We'd love to answer it in next week's episode. If you're not a Sombelle member and you've been listening in kind of umming and ah -ing, should I join? Is it worth it? Maybe I'll just keep listening to the podcast. I mean, you can do whatever you like, but if you do reach that point where you go, oh, no, that was another terrible night or another hard settle.
Dr Laura (40:47)
Hahaha.
Dr Fallon (40:53)
Sombelle is there for you. And there's a discount available at the moment as well. You can go to the website and check that out too. And would love to welcome all of the new members as well. It's been another really busy week and it's so lovely to see our community growing and growing. It really is wonderful. I'm back doing some clinic work again because I'm feeling a whole, well, I'm sounding very croaky, but I am actually feeling a whole lot better after my surgery a few weeks ago.
Dr Laura (41:01)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (41:20)
There's coaching calls available. So if you're a Sombelle member or not, you know, if you're just wanting to talk to someone and get advice specific to your individual child, Sombelle members can book those coaching calls. There's a link that says book a coaching call right on your dashboard in the program. And I do have some, I think I've got some availability left this week. So can see you quite soon.
Dr Laura (41:41)
Yeah, and if you haven't joined Sombelle and you think you prefer to come into the clinic so that I do all of the thinking and the work for you, there are clinic appointments, I think it's about a four week wait at the moment, possibly there might be three weeks.
but that is also an option for you. So you can go through the Sombelle website, you'll be able to find your way to Infant Sleep Australia and have a look at the clinic. You can come into the clinic in Melbourne or we can see you over telehealth as well.
Dr Fallon (42:08)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah, there's a couple of really good options there. And I think it, it, Sombelle is great because you get all that background knowledge in sleep. And I find that really helps to just hit the ground running because we're speaking the same language, you know, we, you've, you've thought about it all already. And it just, it's a really, I think Sombelle is great because you can get that really quick turnaround. But if you think you've got a really complex case or, you know, particularly challenging sleep difficulties, the clinic's really great for that.
Dr Laura (42:29)
Oh yeah. Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (42:46)
Excellent. Well, thank you so much everyone for tuning in. We really appreciate it and we hope everyone has a wonderful week and stay tuned because we'll be back again next week.
Dr Laura (42:56)
Thanks everyone. Bye bye.
