Dr Fallon (00:38)
In a moment of desperation, have you ever gone online and searched up what the ideal sleep schedule is for the age of your baby? If you have, you're not alone. It's really, really common for parents to go and do this because sometimes we just feel desperate to have, you know, a clear schedule to follow that might just fix everything. But there's problems with that. As we know, some schedules can drastically overestimate how much sleep a baby needs.
And that's what we're going to be discussing in this week's episode. Um, welcome back to Brand New Little People, um, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a focus on sleep and settling during those first few years, I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with my cohost, Dr. Laura Conway.
Dr Laura (01:22)
Hi Fallon, how are you going? Yeah, good. I was really thrilled last week to see one of your reels really go off on Instagram and TikTok. I was just blown away by the number of shares and the number of people liking your post, which was all about how much sleep an eight month old baby needs. And it really resonated with lots of people.
Dr Fallon (01:24)
Yeah, I'm good. How are you?
Hehehe
Yeah.
Dr Laura (01:50)
online, didn't it? Why don't you tell us a little bit about the reel?
Dr Fallon (01:53)
Yeah. So, you know, a lot of people say, talk to people's pain points in social media, because that's what they really want to know, you know, more information about. And I was scrolling online, looking at bits and pieces and came across this sleep schedule for an eight month old that really made me go, what, what are they thinking? That's crazy. And so I thought, I'm going to do a reel picking this apart because so many families do really, really struggle. They grab a sleep schedule and then
I mean, we see it in clinic all the time. They've been following a sleep schedule that's promised them better sleep. And it's actually made the problem way, way worse. So the reel was all about, you know, I'm a sleep scientist and this is the review I did of this eight month sleep schedule. So you don't have to. And yes, it did resonate hard because this schedule was suggesting that an eight month old baby should be having two hour day naps. That's four hours of day sleep, right?
Dr Laura (02:22)
Mm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a lot.
Dr Fallon (02:49)
And then sleeping 12 hours overnight. So put them down at 7 PM and get them up at 7 AM. So that's 16 hours of sleep per 24 hours, which is, you know, some newborns can do that, but an eight month old really can't. So I pulled out being the researcher that I am pulled up a really great chart that shows how sleep needs actually slowly decline over time and, and sort of pointed out, well, here's the data for an eight month old and there's maybe
Dr Laura (02:56)
Oh my goodness.
I'm gonna go.
Dr Fallon (03:19)
maybe 1%, 2% maybe of eight month olds who could actually manage 16 hours of sleep. But it's pretty unusual. Um, so the reel was really just saying like, if you try to follow this schedule, you're going to have a baby who wakes up all the time, probably has some pretty bad split nights where they're awake for, you know, at least an hour overnight, um, and settling is going to be a nightmare if you're trying to work on cot settling or something like that.
Dr Laura (03:23)
Yes.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (03:44)
that baby's sleep pressure is going to be really low because they're just getting so much day's sleep. You're likely to really, really struggle. So it was really interesting to see parent responses because a lot of parents jumped on there and were like, can you do one for six months of age? Can you do one for toddlers? So we will. We'll be doing lots more reels, kind of picking apart some of these sleep schedules that always remain anonymous. We're not going to go after anybody who's put a schedule together ever. We would never do that.
Dr Laura (03:49)
Mm.
Yes.
Nah.
No, and everyone who works in this space has got the best interest of parents and babies and toddlers at heart. So we don't ever, ever think that people are deliberately out there, spreading misinformation. But it's, it's just incorrect information. And it does have a, it can have a really negative impact on families. You know, if you do have an eight month old baby or up to your neck in
Dr Fallon (04:18)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (04:40)
difficult settling, difficult nights. And you think, oh yeah, let me just find a schedule that's gonna solve everything. And you download one of these. It can really, really ramp things up like you're saying Fallon. And that's what we want to stop happening. And that's why we started Running Infant Sleep Australia and then Sombelle, isn't it? Because we thought there's all these families out there who are getting not the full picture. And...
Dr Fallon (04:57)
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (05:08)
we can come in with the actual scientific evidence and say, well, yeah, there's a very small number of babies at that age who would be able to sleep that amount and would need that amount. And if your baby isn't in that tiny little minority, don't worry. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with them. They just have a lower sleep need.
Dr Fallon (05:08)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yes, exactly. And I'm always really worried too, that if parents are reaching out in desperation for these schedules, they're probably already really exhausted and could be hanging by thread. So then to get advice that's unlikely to fit their baby, that really worries me. Cause I think that's when we see parents just fall to pieces and no one wants to get to that horrible place. So if the daily schedule is something that you have been
Dr Laura (05:38)
Mm.
No.
Dr Fallon (05:55)
you know, really worried about a lot of parents will say, Oh my God, I've agonized over this thing. We've tried this, we've tried that. Um, and you know, that you're just not quite getting it right. And you haven't been able to sort of figure that out. Um, that's something we take really seriously. And we do a lot of work with families on this because we know that when we've got a daily rhythm that really supports a baby's unique sleep needs or a toddler's unique sleep needs, um, the settling just comes together that much more easily. So families who've struggled with settling for ages suddenly are saying, Oh, this is actually working really well now. Um, so if you need help with that.
Dr Laura (06:08)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (06:25)
do go check out the Sombelle programs because it's a really big part of the programs is really making sure we have that beautiful fit for your child. And I actually reckon that's the magic ingredient in a way without getting the timing right. You're just going to keep having sleep difficulties and that's not fun for anyone.
Dr Laura (06:35)
Yes.
No, it absolutely isn't. And we do have families who want us to provide the magic potion or to wave the magic wand. And the closest we can get to that is teaching parents how to understand their baby's unique sleep needs. So that you can then adjust the schedule and then you can put into place a settling approach if that is something that you want to work on.
Dr Fallon (06:59)
Mmm.
Yes, and then it's more likely to actually work.
Dr Laura (07:09)
Yeah, because of course you don't. Yes, that's right. Yeah. If you're trying to help your eight month old sleep for 16 hours a day, it's going to be really hard to be putting them down in their cot and walking away because they're not going to be happy about that at all. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:17)
Hmmm
No, no, not at all. You'll be in sleep hell, I think, by that point. And I think too, sleep needs naturally decline over that first year, which also makes it challenging for parents, because you might have a really great daily rhythm, everything's going really well, and then the next week, it's all falling apart again. So what we would say is, if you're a Sombelle member, don't think, ah, it stopped working, go back to the program, reassess their unique sleep needs, and then plan
Dr Laura (07:30)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:54)
four or five times across the first year, which is why we give you 12 months access. Because their sleep needs do keep changing and you will need to keep sort of just shifting things slightly to keep things on track. But you can learn how to do that using the program and it's a really good skill to have.
Dr Laura (07:57)
Mmm.
Yes.
Yeah. And think about it a little bit like, um, how your baby's always growing and you'll have the clothes in the wardrobe or the chest of drawers that are fitting perfectly one week. And the next week you go to put your baby in those, um, triple zero clothes and you can't, and you go, oh my goodness, I've only, we're only in these for five minutes and now I've got to get out the double zeros. And
Dr Fallon (08:32)
Mmm. Hehehehe.
That's it. It's exactly like sleep needs, isn't it? Hmm.
Dr Laura (08:38)
you have to, yeah, that's right. So you wouldn't be able to keep your baby in those smaller clothes. And it's the same, you can't keep your baby in a sleep schedule for a younger age where they've got a higher sleep need. So you have to keep on switching up, keeping on top of how much sleep they need at the moment, how many naps do they need at the moment in the same way you keep on top of changing the clothes.
Dr Fallon (08:52)
Mmm.
Yes.
Dr Laura (09:07)
And when they're on solids, you keep on top of introducing new solids and new textures and finger foods and so forth. So we just keep changing, sleep keeps changing and as parents, we have to keep adapting to that. And in the same way, you don't think something is wrong if they're not fitting into their clothes anymore. You think, well, that's just normal. That's right. Of course, they need to grow. It's the same when it comes to their sleep.
Dr Fallon (09:26)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (09:32)
They don't need to have four naps a day anymore. They only need three. Well, they don't need to have 14 hours anymore. They only need 13. And that's actually very normal. Not anything to worry about. You're not doing anything wrong. And they're developing like they should be.
Dr Fallon (09:32)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. So possibly, you know, some key things parents could keep an eye out for, you know, signs that the daily rhythm isn't quite fitting properly, would be that settling is taking a long time. So even with your support and you're doing all the things they want you to do, they're taking more than 20 minutes to fall asleep. You know, if you've got sort of split nights, where they're waking up for a long time or
I think one of the key ones I see a lot is parents will say, I tried this new settling approach, or they might've even had some time in sleep school where someone else has helped their baby learn how to settle in the cot. And they say it went really well for about a week or maybe sometimes it's two weeks and then it absolutely fell apart. That's often where we say, okay, there's something not right with the daily rhythm. Something's causing that settling to fall apart. It's probably a loss of sleep pressure. So if you have...
Dr Laura (10:18)
Mm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (10:38)
you know, if you're one of those parents who says, well, we had some success with cot settling and then it just didn't work and we can't get back there again. That's likely to be the difficulty. So have a bit of a think about that daily rhythm. Yeah. And there'll be more reels to come. So yeah.
Dr Laura (10:48)
Yeah, and keep watch. Yes, I was about to say that Fallon. Yeah, keep watching. And yeah, there'll be more on their way and covering younger babies and older babies and toddlers. So please like them and share them because we're thrilled when we see that happening because we know that means it's reaching more people.
Dr Fallon (11:03)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And let us know what you'd like to see. We'll be doing some myth busting. We're going to talk about some red flags you can look out for. And we'll definitely review some more sleep schedules. Yeah, awesome. We've got a few parent questions this week, Laura. Do you want to start with Ellen?
Dr Laura (11:22)
Yeah, excellent. Yeah.
Yes. So Ellen has bought the toddler program after being recommended by a mum at daycare. So that's wonderful. The good old mum network is working well. And Ellen has asked what to do when her 15 month old becomes hysterical when he can't feed to sleep or feed back to sleep when she's around. Oh, no.
Dr Fallon (11:39)
Hehehehe
Oh, you're not alone there, Ellen. It's so, so tough. And 15 month olds, they've found their voice. They know what they want. Um, it, it really definitely is challenging. So there's a few ways to look at this one. I would say if you've got support around you, if you've got a partner, that's, that's what you really need, um, to be leaning into is getting some support around that settling. Because so often for toddlers, if they know you're around, they'll
Dr Laura (11:57)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Dr Fallon (12:18)
carry on like pork chops because they're thinking, well, mum's just over there. Mum's in the next room. You know, I want to feed and I'm going to not let up until she gets back in here. Um, whereas so many families will say, I went for a walk at bedtime, went for a walk around the block and my partner did the settle and my child knew that I wasn't in the house and they settled really easily. Um, so that's definitely something to consider is just not being around for some of those settles. Um,
Dr Laura (12:36)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (12:44)
If you've got a partner or you might have a grandparent or an aunt or a friend who can help you with the settling, that's great. They're going to give your child lots of love and support, but it's just a different type of support than the feeding to sleep. And they just need to do it a few times. And then they kind of go, oh, actually, I can fall asleep without that feed to sleep. But it's definitely challenging and it does take, yeah, a little steely resolve to make that transition. What other advice would you have, Laura?
Dr Laura (12:55)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, look at 15 months old, you can also be telling yourself when they wake up overnight, as long as they are healthy and well and they're gaining weight and eating properly during the day, they don't need to feed back to sleep overnight. I think certainly for parents of younger babies, that's always in your mind. Well, I want to feed them less overnight, but I know they still need to feed.
overnight. And then that can be a little bit tricky. When you know, okay, I'm going to feed them, you know, in that instance, you might say, well, if they're four months old, I'm going to feed them two or three times overnight, but the other times they wake up, I'll use a different approach to settle them. When you've got a toddler who's 15 months old, we really know that they don't need to feed overnight to meet their nutritional requirements.
and it can be really helpful to have that in your mind Ellen when they are waking up overnight even if they're becoming really upset and cross that you're not feeding them back to sleep you know rationally that they don't need to feed back to sleep so they're not hungry no
Dr Fallon (14:16)
And then not hungry. Yeah. Much like when she, he or she wakes you up at night, you don't feel hungry. Um, when you're woken at night and that's the same for toddlers because their circadian rhythms are more mature. Um, digestion slows down overnight to really prioritize sleep. Um, so when they wake at night, it's not to do with hunger at all. It's really just, that's what I'm expecting and that's what I'm used to. So give them lots of love and support.
Dr Laura (14:34)
Yes.
No.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:44)
to settle any other way. And when they're no longer expecting nighttime feeds, that's when you can say, okay, which of the Somba strategies will we put in place here? Is it, you know, a co-sleeping fade out if you've been co-sleeping or, or there's, you know, a bunch of different approaches you can explore. And I think consistency plays a really big role here as well. If they notice that you change out what you're doing too often, that can really...
Dr Laura (14:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (15:09)
keep that crying happening because they think, well, maybe I'll keep crying and something different will happen again.
Dr Laura (15:13)
Yes. Yeah. And Ellen, if you're sometimes feeding your toddler to sleep and sometimes not, and sometimes feeding them back to sleep and sometimes not, then things can become really confusing for your toddler who is trying to make sense of the world. And then it will become even harder for you because your 15 month old is going to be thinking, well, what did I do last time to get the feed? You know, how long did I?
Dr Fallon (15:28)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (15:42)
they're not actually thinking that in their mind, but know that sometimes you would feed them back to sleep overnight and sometimes wouldn't and it's just very confusing. And then perhaps in those instances, that's when the crime becomes hysterical, which is a word that Ellen has used. So when you have made that decision, Ellen, that you're not gonna be feeding your toddler back to sleep overnight, just stick with it. And as Fallon says, do whatever you can.
Dr Fallon (15:52)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (16:08)
to resettle them. And if that's leaning on your partner to do those resettles with lots of cuddles and hugs or incorporating the weaning off the overnight feeds with one of the strategies that's in Sombelle, then do that and know that it's appropriate at this age and that hysterical crying will diminish as they learn.
that there's no more feeds overnight. And instead there's this other loving approach. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (16:35)
Mmm.
Yeah. And usually it's a couple of nights with no feeds and that crying reduces a lot as they realize that, yeah, that's the way things are going to go. Um, to Ellen, I'd definitely recommend reading through the chapter on, I think it's called the psychology of sleep. I should have it open in front of me, but, um, that will really teach you a lot about, you know, why your baby or your toddler is crying so much. Um, and also the unique sleep needs chapter, because if you've got, yeah, definitely look at the unique sleep needs and make sure that daily rhythm is a really good one so that when they wake overnight.
Sleep pressure's nice and high. And when you don't offer that feed, but you offer other supports, they're much more likely to accept those supports. Um, yeah.
Dr Laura (17:09)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah, good luck, Ellen. So we've had another question here from Maddie. Maddie has a four month old little boy and she started our program about two weeks ago after stumbling across it via Mums in Yarra and she then became an avid listener of the podcast so that's lovely to hear. So Maddie
Dr Fallon (17:34)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (17:41)
each night for at least 30 minutes each time and needed bouncing rocking or feeding back to sleep. Oh that would have been very hard Maddie. Since starting the supported accelerated approach about a week and a half ago things have gotten remarkably better. He now wakes up three times a night, two of those are a feed and then the third one generally he settles quickly for dad.
Dr Fallon (17:51)
Mmm.
I'm sorry.
Dr Laura (18:08)
He's also feeding much better during the day. Now he's not feeding constantly overnight. Plus he settles for naps much quicker and easier too, and even extends some naps beyond 30 minutes. Really, really great. Fant. Yes, really good after waking up five or more times every night. That's brilliant. So Maddie says, she acknowledges it's far from perfect, but it is so, so much better. Thank you very much.
Dr Fallon (18:20)
Wow, good job, Maddie. That's fantastic.
Yeah, yeah, it really is.
Dr Laura (18:35)
His sleep needs are about 12 and a half to 13 hours and he's on three naps a day, which sounds about right for a four and a half month old. So Maddie has a few questions. So we might take them one at a time Fallon. She says about a month before starting your program he had begun to cry as would enter his room or pop his sleep suit on around nap or bedtime and be very tricky to settle.
Dr Fallon (18:45)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (19:02)
Whilst this hasn't happened as much since starting your programme, it still happens regularly and it's quite distressing. I hate the idea that he finds bedtime so upsetting. Do you have any ideas why this is happening and tips to reduce this?
Dr Fallon (19:17)
Hmm. It's a really interesting one. We know that some babies, even when they are, you know, experts, sleepers, and they, they always self settle in their cart and, and that's just what they've been used to for months and months. Some babies just go, right, they're going to send me to bed. I'm going to have big cry and let out all of that remaining energy. Um, sometimes they're thinking, no, I don't want to stop playing and interacting with the world. Um, they're just grumpy about that, that kind of change, um, that's coming up.
It doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem. Um, you know, for some parents, they say, Oh, look, you know, it's five to 10 minutes of them being really cranky and then they settle down and it's fine. So you don't necessarily have to do anything about it. If you're finding it really, really distressing, one thing you can try is just a complete change of scenery. So sometimes they just go, Oh, we're going into that room. Oh, that's when I cry. I cry when I go in that room. So for some parents, they kind of do a bit of a circuit breaker where you could.
Dr Laura (19:49)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
I'm gonna go.
Dr Fallon (20:14)
set up a temporary nursery in a spare room if you've got one, and start to do your day naps in there, and just see if he sort of goes, oh, different room, things are happening a little bit differently. Sometimes they are much, you know, much, much easier to settle and there's less crying. And then after a week, you move back to the old room and they're fine. But for some families, they just say, oh, that would never work for me because they would find it too upsetting to be somewhere different. But just have a think about it. It could be something that you explore, but look.
Dr Laura (20:41)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (20:42)
In all likelihood, over time, it will gradually reduce. And just making sure, you know, you're always settling him when he's definitely tired too. Sounds like you've got a great daily rhythm happening at the moment. If that crying is really extending and he's taking a long time to settle, that'd be a sign that the sleep needs have dropped and you'll need to mix up that schedule again. Yeah.
Dr Laura (20:45)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Hmm yeah. So Maddie's next question is do I always have to put my baby down awake in the cot after a feed overnight or is it just whilst he's learning to self-settle? Maddie writes he's very tricky to wake after a feed and when I do manage to he's then awake for quite a while. Yeah yeah.
Dr Fallon (21:03)
Ahem.
It's another really good question, isn't it? It's look, and it's a really personal one. Some babies can feed to sleep overnight and it's perfectly fine. They'll just still sleep really, really well. And if you've got one of those babies feed them to sleep, it's not going to matter. But if you've got a baby who, when they're fed to sleep, they spring awake all the time wondering where on earth you went. They're finding it really upsetting. Um, their nights are quite broken. Then I would say you just, you have to stop doing it.
Dr Laura (21:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (21:52)
For those two feeds, you might do a quick nappy change and then pop him down in his cot to resettle there and your nights will be so much better for it. So it's very, I think based on the individual and what your goals are and what's working for you. What would you add to that, Laura?
Dr Laura (22:02)
Mmm.
Yeah. Given that Maddie says that he's only waking for two feeds overnight, and then is very quick to resettle for a third wake, I would say it's probably not a big issue at the moment for her baby. He is in that danger zone in around that four and a half months, where he might start to develop some stronger preferences just as he becomes more aware of the world and cause and effect.
Dr Fallon (22:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (22:31)
So it certainly wouldn't hurt to practice, maybe just pick one of the feeds, maybe the feed earlier on in the night where the sleep pressure is a bit higher to try to consistently wake your baby after the feed at that one, just by doing the changing the nappy. And they don't have to be like super wide awake, but just not fast asleep on going into the cot. And with the sleep pressure being a bit higher,
Dr Fallon (22:55)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (22:59)
earlier on in the night, you might find that he then goes back into the cot and goes off to sleep quite readily and isn't awake for such a long length of time. I can also imagine Maddie that given that you've had this experience of him being awake for 30 minutes at a time, up to five, well, even longer, more times overnight, that you'd be feeling a little bit nervous about.
Dr Fallon (23:12)
Mm.
Dr Laura (23:25)
having that experience again. So I can imagine that it would be a bit nerve wracking to be waking him from a feed. So you could keep, as Fallon says, you could keep going like you are. If it doesn't appear at the moment to be having a big impact on him, just carry on feeding him to sleep and pop him down in the cup. But if you did want to experiment a little bit more,
Dr Fallon (23:28)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Laura (23:46)
with waking him after the feed just to ensure that sleep association is well and truly gone. Start with that earlier feed in the night when the sleep pressure is a little bit higher and that wake might then be a little bit shorter in duration.
Dr Fallon (23:54)
Hmm.
Yeah.
I think that's such a good idea. And I generally say to families at this age, if you get a sudden increase in night waking where they are springing awake after almost every sleep cycle, that's your sign that it's time to make sure they're going back down awake after the feeds. Um, and that will usually fix things up pretty quickly.
Dr Laura (24:15)
Yeah.
Mm. Maddie's third question says, he is still consistently waking that extra time outside of a feed, usually around three hours after the last feed. Could this be genuine hunger, or is it more likely habit and might eventually resolve?
Dr Fallon (24:35)
It's interesting one, isn't it? Because that's the wake up where he resettles, um, for Maddie's partner. So that makes me think it's not hunger because a hungry baby won't, they will refuse to resettle and you'll know, you'll know they're hungry. They won't go back to sleep without that fee. They'll put up a really big fight. Um, so I'd be thinking probably not hunger, um, for four and a half months of age, two overnight feeds is fine. Um, if weight gain is also fine.
Dr Laura (24:44)
Yeah.
Yeah, yes.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (25:03)
Um, there's no need to add in an extra feed and I would just keep doing what you're doing in another, I mean, it could happen at any time, probably in another month or so they might just drop down to one overnight feed. Um, a lot of babies will. Um, then when they're sort of six months of age, if weight gain is going well and they're really doing well on solid food, that's when often babies will just drop that overnight feed on their own accord. Or sometimes parents will decide to gradually reduce that feed so that they're getting all their calories in their daytime.
Dr Laura (25:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (25:30)
Um, so Maddie, I would say you're doing, you're doing really well with those two nighttime feeds and you could carry on with that for sure.
Dr Laura (25:36)
Yeah. And Maddie's last question is, is a by the clock daily rhythm appropriate at four months, by which she means a set nap time, wake up time and bedtime. She's read that this isn't appropriate until six months, but would like our take.
Dr Fallon (25:54)
Mm. Um, again, I think it comes down to individual goals. So for many babies and parents, they don't need to have a strict daily rhythm for, you know, probably the majority, um, you'll just naturally fall into a bit of a pattern that's got some variability day to day, but sleep's fine, it doesn't really matter. Um, so certainly for some parents, they never need to worry about having set wake times and nap times and things like that, but if you've got sleep challenges,
Dr Laura (26:10)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (26:23)
that's when having, you know, something that goes a little bit more by the clock can be worthwhile. But going by the clock doesn't mean, you know, going to one of those downloadable schedules and going, well, they're this old, so this is the routine they need. The best way to do it is to go, well, how much sleep does my baby actually need? And then working out a schedule that supports that sleep need. Because then when you are being a bit more rigid with the same bedtime, the same
Dr Laura (26:29)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (26:51)
And you might aim for the same nap times. You certainly don't have to, but it might be one of your goals. You're kind of respecting your baby's unique sleep needs and supporting them rather than trying to push them into something rigid that isn't quite fitting their actual sleep needs. So yes, I would say having a by the clock daily rhythm at four months is perfectly fine, provided it's actually fitting to your baby's needs.
Dr Laura (26:58)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. And if you are looking to begin to bring in some predictability from day to day, which many families are once they get out of that very little baby phase, you know, the first three months, which can just be just an absolute whirlwind. It can be really helpful to have a set wake up time in the morning, because having that set wake up time can help the rest of the day fall into a bit more of a predictable rhythm.
So it might be that it's 7 a.m. or you might have a little, a much earlier waking baby. So it might be 6 a.m. And you would then start to see a more predictable time for the first nap and the second nap onwards. And remembering also that as your baby gets older, they're gonna be able to tolerate staying awake for longer periods of time across the day.
Dr Fallon (27:44)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (28:09)
And you will start to find that your baby is awake for the longest period of time before bed, which initially won't be very long, but as they get older, you know, it's gonna end up being three hours, four hours before bed. You know, by the time they're toddlers and they're on one nap, of course they need to be awake for about six hours before bed just because they've only got one nap to fit in, unless you've got a very, very high sleep needs toddler.
So yeah, that would be where I would start. If you were thinking about beginning to bring some predictability into your little baby's life, in your life would be to have a time in the morning that you and your family want to wake up at and just do that consistently for a week and then start to see if a daily rhythm begins to emerge. Yeah, and then see how you go.
Dr Fallon (28:56)
Yeah, I love that advice. I think that's, yeah, it's a really nice gentle way to kind of start to establish some predictability, predictability in each day. Um, Laura, we have two questions from different Kimberleys. So Kimberly is the name of the week apparently. Um, so the first Kimberly has a baby who's about to turn 10 months old. Um, and she wants to know, can a baby be too young to drop a nap?
Dr Laura (29:04)
I'm sorry.
Yes. Yes it is.
Dr Fallon (29:23)
She says her almost 10 month old averages about 12 hours of sleep over 24 hours. He currently has two naps that they cap at two hours total. He's usually asleep by 7.45 PM and they wake him up at 6 a.m. each day. He's now self settling in his cot for naps and at bedtime very quickly. So in under five minutes, which is amazing. So well done. We were just having one wake for a feed at night, which was quite manageable.
Dr Laura (29:23)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (29:52)
He's recently started waking more frequently and much earlier on in the night. He can usually be settled quickly with some padding while he's in his cot. But for some wakes, I end up feeding. It's been a few weeks of the same. Is it more likely we need to tweak the nap timing or drop a nap? Oh, I don't think it's either of those things. But what do you think, Laura? Well, my first thought was like, I think they're doing a wonderful job of that daily rhythm.
Dr Laura (30:12)
Ah, now I want to know what you think it is!
Dr Fallon (30:21)
It's really, really good. And I think it, yeah, getting close to 10 months of age, they're often getting really clever and if they know, well, sometimes when I wake at night, there's a feed, sometimes they start waking more often going, well, can I have a feed now? Or how about now? And so it might not be a rhythm problem, you know, or necessarily that the naps need tweaking, but rather it might be that you have a baby who really needs to stop the night feeds to, to have better nighttime sleep.
Dr Laura (30:35)
Yes, yes!
Yes.
Dr Fallon (30:51)
So that was my first thought, but what do you think Laura? Would you do something with the daily rhythm perhaps?
Dr Laura (30:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, I would be thinking at around 12, anywhere from around 12 months of age, babies can drop down to one nap. Really wide range of normal 12 months through to 18 months that babies will drop down to one nap. Ten months is quite young. We do see it. We do see some babies at that age who drop down to one nap, but they tend to have sleep needs of
Dr Fallon (31:14)
Hmm.
Very rare.
Dr Laura (31:19)
It's very rare. And those are ones where we think of that sleep need falling on a bell-shaped curve. They're the ones that are just right down the end. They only need nine hours or 10 hours for 24 hours. And so they just need to be awake so much more during the day. But it's so rare. I wouldn't be thinking that your baby at 10 months would be ready with a 12 hour sleep need to drop down to one nap.
Dr Fallon (31:30)
Yes.
Dr Laura (31:45)
I would be thinking of either tightening up that bedtime, because if they are having two hours during the day, they're having 15 minutes longer than the 10 hours that is left overnight by going to bed at 7.45 and then waking up at six. So thinking about moving that bedtime just a little bit late, 15 minutes later. I do agree with you, Fallon, that saying no more feed overnight is gonna be a really good way to rule out that there isn't a motivation for.
Dr Fallon (31:58)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (32:11)
your baby waking up overnight, Kimberly. And then thinking, well, if you were to tweak the naps, I would be considering, not going wild, but it might be that you think about giving your baby an hour and a half rather than two hours overnight, but still on the two naps. So it would be one longer nap and one shorter nap. So maybe one nap that's two sleep cycles, depending on how long your baby's sleep cycles are, Kimberly.
Dr Fallon (32:11)
Mmm.
Mmm. Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (32:37)
but it might be two sleep cycles for one nap and then just one sleep cycle for the other nap. Um, or a, um, one sleep cycle each, you know, if they're, if your baby has a 45 minute sleep cycle, they might be able to manage quite nicely on just two, um, 45 minute naps and then keep bedtime. Uh, no, then you can move bedtime a little bit earlier.
Dr Fallon (32:47)
Hmm.
Yeah, that's exactly what I would say too. So I'd probably.
Drop the night feeds. Um, yeah, there's lots of advice in Sombelle on how to do that sort of gradually. Um, and yeah, if that's still not working, you're still having some night wakes and yeah, try for two shorter naps and see how that works out. And know that you've got to give it a week to really know if it's going to fix that problem. Um, but it sounds like you're doing a wonderful, wonderful job. Um, now we've got another Kimberly. Do you want me to read out this one, Laura?
Dr Laura (33:18)
Yeah.
Yes! Yeah, yeah, you go, yeah.
Dr Fallon (33:28)
Yeah, so this is another Kimberley who has an 11 month old. She's saying that she's working through the program but constantly getting pushed back by her 11 month old bringing home new illnesses every week from daycare. Oh my god, I've lived through this particular hell. Oh, it's so hard. It really is. She says we are just recovering from round two of RSV and for the past four nights
Dr Laura (33:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Uh, yeah, it is.
Oh, gosh.
Dr Fallon (33:56)
After putting her to bed, she wakes up and starts crying after an hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes, like clockwork. Do you know why this could possibly be happening? She says it's happened on days where she's been awake for three and a half hours and days when she's been awake for five hours prior to sleep. So I'm not sure if it's a sleep pressure problem or something else. Any advice would be appreciated.
Dr Laura (34:04)
Ah.
Oh, Kimberly, that, yeah, that is a special kind of torture. When your baby just gets one sickness after another. And then sometimes you also then as parents get sick and any other children in the house gets sick. And it's very common for sleep to be derailed. And it can be really disheartening when you find that you just can't quite get any traction.
with the sleep because you start to put a new settling approach into place. And then you have to stop when particularly if they're very unwell, then it's, and if that's you're only two days in to a new settling approach, it can feel really disheartening to have to pause or you've got them sleeping well and it, but it's yet to totally settle and then they get sick.
Dr Fallon (34:51)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (35:08)
Because of course, when babies are sick, they do need more support and they will, particularly with something like RSV, they will need to have more sleep during the day. You wouldn't want to be capping their naps. You'd also be wanting to let them sleep in a little bit longer in the morning to ensure that their little bodies can fight that virus. So what I would be thinking about Kimberley is,
It sounds like your baby is managing probably two sleep cycles at the start of the night before they're then waking up, which sounds a little bit like what is known as colloquially as a false start, which happens one or two sleep cycles into the night. So I would be logging your baby's sleep, just to see where things are at now. If you've had
this roller coaster ride of sickness, maybe that's gone on for a few weeks, and it has coincided with a change in your baby's sleep needs. It may be that the daily rhythm that you were using before they got sick is no longer appropriate, and you may need to think about making some adjustments to the nap duration or bedtime or wake up. I'd also be thinking about
when your baby is waking up overnight, how you're currently responding to her. When your baby is very sick, of course, it's absolutely appropriate for you to be giving them so many more cuddles, loads more support to ensure that they're feeling okay and comforted whilst they're unwell. And in that time, sometimes babies can go, oh, this is actually really quite nice.
And when as parents we do it, we always do it as moms, especially for a little bit longer when they're actually recovered. But we just want to be absolutely sure that they're okay. And so in those few extra days where you are cuddling them to sleep or feeding them to sleep or bouncing them to sleep or doing whatever it was that you did when they were unwell, they can go quite like this and then.
Dr Fallon (36:42)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (37:03)
you're inadvertently then bringing back in those sleep associations that you might previously have got rid of. So once you know they're absolutely better and you're feeling confident then read through the different settling approaches, pick the settling approach Kimblee that you've used before and you've had success with before and then just jump back on the wagon and start to use that approach again.
Dr Fallon (37:27)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (37:27)
Did you have anything else to add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (37:30)
that I think you know with the daily rhythm side of things so often false starts are to do with there being a little bit too much day sleep creeping in and Kimberly mentions that there's some variability in how long her 11 month old is awake before bed and that it doesn't seem to matter like you know how long it is that she'll still have this wake up try to instill in this particular case one particular daily rhythm for a full week
Dr Laura (37:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (37:58)
And in those first few days, you might think, oh, this isn't working at all. And then, you know, sometimes day four, five, six, it all starts to come together. Um, so if there is a bit of variability in day sleep, um, you might find that, yeah, the nights, um, can be quite tricky, but once you start to instill that predictability day to day, um, that early night wake up should go away.
Dr Laura (38:05)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (38:20)
If it doesn't, and you've been holding that schedule nice and steady, and it's still sticking around, and you've worked on self settling, you know, they're no longer needing sort of help to get back to sleep. That's what I'd say. Okay. Then look at the day's sleep, maybe dial it back a little bit. Um, it might be that you just need to drop a sleep cycle, possibly from the day's sleep. And then that, um, sort of false start, um, is more likely to go away. So it sounds like there's some tinkering.
Dr Laura (38:20)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (38:45)
there to do. If you're really struggling and this goes to any parents listening and also the parents who sent in these questions, book in for a coaching call. They are such a good way to really do a deep dive into some of these problems that when I noticed when Laura and I were answering these questions today, and it's sort of a bit like, well, if they're doing this, you could do this and hop but then again, if they're doing this other thing, you could try this other thing. In a coaching call, we can ask you all the right questions, get the info we need and then make sure you've got a really clear plan going forward. So
Dr Laura (38:56)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (39:12)
Yeah, particularly after the illness that you've just been experiencing, Kimberly, you might find that something like a coaching call is a great way just to bring everything together and make some, some steps forward. Um, and we just got one last question, Laura from Steph, who wants to know, um, when we say patting the baby, so I'm assuming she's got the baby programs and some of the approaches involve some patting. She wants to know, what does this mean? Is it just a light pat on their bottom or something else?
Dr Laura (39:20)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm hmm. Yeah. So with the patting, I know that there's a lot of information out there about it. Fast pat and then slow pats. And then you wait until your baby is starting to breathe in a certain way, and then you pat them in a different way. And and that has led parents to believe that there is some kind of magic.
Dr Fallon (39:41)
Ahem.
Hehehehe
Hehehe
Magical Pat.
Dr Laura (40:03)
magical pat and there isn't. When we think about patting our babies in the cot or bassinet or in our arms if you're doing one of the really gradual approaches, what we think about is being really consistent and predictable in the way that we pat our babies. It can be really helpful to do a heartbeat pat so a bu-bum bu-bum. Other parents will just do a very slow
Pat, like this. Oh, sorry, for those listening, they can't see what I'm doing. So like, boom, just a slow, steady pat. Not getting any faster when your baby is getting more escalated, because in a sense, your baby is asking you a question. Am I okay? Am I okay? Am I okay? And you're going, yes, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine. Pat, pat, pat. And that's not answering with you're fine. But when you stay really steady, you're like, yes, you're fine. And I'm just gonna...
Dr Fallon (40:26)
Mmm.
Just a steady part. Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, pat, pat. Yes.
Yes. And you're saying I'm calm too. So it's, it's okay. I'm so glad you mentioned that because I've had so many families say, Oh, we were told to use this approach where we pat really fast when they're crying. And then as they calm down for sleep, we pat slower and slower. And they're like, but it doesn't work. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised at all because when they're worked up, you're saying, well, I'm also worked up and I'm going to pat, you know, really frenetically. Um.
Dr Laura (40:54)
Yes!
I'm sorry.
Dr Fallon (41:17)
And it also, I think, especially for older babies and toddlers, it's like, Oh, I can turn this up and down. Let's play a bit of a game with that. What happens if I go, ah, and then the pats increase like it. Yeah. It can quickly get out of control. So remember you're the parent. Um, your job is to be really calm and really consistent. Decide on what patting you're going to do. Make it a steady, you know, calm pat, not a frenetic one and just keep doing it the same way. And that's really simple is better.
Dr Laura (41:23)
Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (41:47)
Hehehehe
Dr Laura (41:47)
Yeah, and I should say when Steph has said, doesn't mean a pat on the bottom, I'm assuming Steph that your baby is an older baby or a toddler for little babies. We definitely wanna be putting them to sleep on their backs. Well, in the first 12 months, you wanna be putting your baby down into their cot on their backs. So then you'd be patting, you could pat their chest, you can pat the top of their leg, their thigh.
Dr Fallon (42:01)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (42:12)
Some babies actually don't want the patting at all and they just want their face to be stroked and that's okay you can stroke the face in a slow calm predictable way as well. When you have babies that can yes
Dr Fallon (42:17)
Mmmm
Yeah, yep. And the forehead stroke, the kind of top of the forehead down to the nose with the tip of the finger can work wonders and it doesn't trigger that reflex for feeding in the little babies when you touch their cheek. Mine was suckers for that. Do you know what I used to do to know if they were really tired and really ready for sleep with my babies, I would do that gentle stroke from the top of the forehead to sort of between the eyebrows.
Dr Laura (42:32)
Oh yes, yes.
Dr Fallon (42:47)
And if they were tired, they could not keep their eyes open. That at least do like a really slow blink before that kind of open their eyes again. And I'd be like, right, it is time you're ready for a nap. But if I did that slow stroke and they were just like wide-eyed, not doing a slow blink at all, I was like, yeah, we're not quite there yet. There's no science behind that. That's purely just something that worked for me and my kids. But, um, yeah, give it a try and let us know. Maybe, maybe we need a research study on some of these things.
Dr Laura (43:05)
Yes.
Yes!
That makes me laugh, just bringing back memories of me doing that with one of mine and I used to stroke down her forehead and my hand would go over her eyes and I'll take, then lift my hand up to do it again and her eyes would just be... I'd be like, come on! Like, what are you doing? I will not be going to sleep for you today. Yeah, so yes.
Dr Fallon (43:34)
Hehe
That's hilarious.
Dr Laura (43:39)
Patting, just pick one predictable way, slow, not frenetic, keep it steady, no matter what your baby is doing. On the chest when they're younger or on the top of their thighs. And also you could do this stroking that we've just talked about. And when they're older, then it can be on their bottom if they're rolling around loads and they're much bigger babies. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (44:02)
Yeah, I think that's great advice. Um, so to wrap things up this week, um, I just wanted to say, we've had a few emails come through from parents saying, I want to book a coaching call and I've looked everywhere and I can't find the link and Laura and I were kind of scratching our heads like, but it's right there, but we think we might've figured out what's happening. So if you log into the Sombelle program in a browser on your computer or on your phone, but in a browser.
There's the left-hand menu where you click to see the different chapters. Up the top, it's got like, you know, listen to the podcast and then there's a link for book a coaching call. Um, so if you're trying to book a coaching call, go into a web browser, log into your program that way. Um, you should find the link there top left, um, left-hand corner. And I'm also going to start putting a link to book the coaching calls in our podcast announcements, which go out each, um, each Monday. When you get that link, there'll be a link in there to book a coaching call if you need one. If you are using.
the Kajabi app. So Kajabi is like the platform that hosts our programs and they have their own app that we don't really control. But if you have that app, you can actually load Sombelle into that app. It's not a great way to access the program because it means you don't, it's just a weird layout. It doesn't include the announcements and you don't get that list of links down the side. So if you're using the Kajabi app, you won't see a link to book a coaching call. We're going to try and figure out a way to somehow get one in there.
But if you're using that app and you really want a coaching call, go through to the announcements to book one or yeah, log into your browser to book one or shoot us an email and we can send you the link. We're happy to do that too. Yeah, so hopefully that helps for those who are wondering where those coaching calls can be booked. We've got plenty of availability, so it's a great way to get fast track to access into our clinic. And it's amazing what we can achieve in those 25 minutes.
So yeah, they're there if you need them. If you've been listening in and you aren't a Sombelle member and you wanna become one, it's a great time to do it. We've got a bit of a sale on at the moment. So go and check that out. You know, we could be answering your questions on here as soon as next week and you'll have access to those coaching calls as well. I don't know if we've got much other news, do we Laura?
Dr Laura (45:54)
Yeah.
No, I don't think so. You're doing an Instagram live today. We do have that, but that will, you will have done it by the time this podcast is podcast. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (46:16)
I am, I think this, I will have done it by the time this is published. Yeah. Yep. But we're doing a whole bunch. We've got some really cool presentations coming up this year that are free of charge. Make sure you're following Parents You've Got This Um, they are fantastic organization. We are their sleep, their sleep experts. Um, and they host Instagram live kind of master classes all the time where we jump on, we answer parent questions. It's a great way to get some free tips and advice about sleep.
Um, follow along with the Raising Children's Network because we do big one hour webinars for them. We have one coming up in May and could be June or July. I can't remember now. Um, but we do those for toddler sleep and baby sleep. Um, and yeah, just make sure you're following us on the socials because we always share these opportunities. We know that, you know, it's a pretty tough time at the moment in the world with a lot of, you know, the expense of everything's going up. Not everyone can afford to buy the program. We completely get that, but there are plenty of free options available as well.
Dr Laura (46:54)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Fallon (47:15)
to give you a bit of a helping hand. All right, well, thanks everyone for listening in. It's been an absolute pleasure and do send in your questions for next week because we love to answer them. Have a great week.
Dr Laura (47:25)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
