Dr Fallon (00:00)
Hi listeners, welcome back to Brand New Little People. If you have a moment, can you do us a little favor please this week? Please hit that subscribe button so that you'll be notified every week when a new episode becomes available. And if you've got a moment, please drop us a five -star review. It really helps us to reach as many tired, exhausted parents as possible. And we know how hard it is to find good quality sleep and settling advice.
out there on the internet and in podcast land as well. So if you've got a moment to do those two things, we would so appreciate it. This week's episode is episode 51. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway, who has had one heck of a morning, Laura. We're here, we're recording, but my gosh, this morning's been a journey, hasn't it?
Dr Laura (00:48)
my goodness me. Yes. Hello, everyone. Yes, I have had a crazy morning getting the kids up and ready for school, getting into the car and the car refusing to start. Flat battery. And anyway, I had to get roadside assist out. It's all been a bit of a nightmare that I had to drive my car for at least 45 minutes to recharge the battery.
Anyway, here we are. It's done. I'm hoping it starts when it's time for school pickup. And these are all the things out. A lot of our listeners aren't at this stage yet. Are they? Fallon, they've got little babies and toddlers of the school years. It's wonderful in many, many ways, but just new challenges.
Dr Fallon (01:20)
Heheheheh!
Yeah, new challenges, new ups and downs. That's for sure. I've got my seven year old in the next room who's home sick from school and managed to throw my back out last night. So I'm exhausted and in pain, but the show goes on. That's it.
Dr Laura (01:49)
show goes on. We have questions to answer. And the best thing about other people's problems is that we can do our best with our expert advice to solve it. Our own problems are slightly harder to solve. But I think this is going to help us feel really productive, Falon. We can go through all of these wonderful questions that our Sombelle members have sent in and help you get you back on track. And then we'll work on our own problems outside of the podcast.
Dr Fallon (01:57)
Heheheheh
You
Yay!
Yeah. We'll just hope that a motor mechanic is listening in and gives us some advice. So Laura, we have had so many questions come through this week and brilliant, brilliant questions as well. And it really made me think, let's just do an episode. We do this every now and then where we just really dive into parent questions.
Dr Laura (02:23)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (02:39)
because I think these questions are great. They span from tiny little newborn babies right through to the preschool years and touch on really common difficulties. So this episode will be a really good one. No matter how old your child is, it's going to give you something. And if you do have a really little baby, you're going to hear all sorts of things about sleep and settling as your baby grows and develops. So hopefully parents will like this kind of format where we just really dive into the questions.
So how about if we get started Laura with Georgina? Georgina has a five month old baby girl who feeds to sleep at night and has contact naps during the day. At four months of age, the night wakes started to increase, which is very common at that point. Georgina says she currently has a 14 hour sleep needs. So is offering three to three and a half hours of day sleep and 10 and a half to 11 hours of night sleep.
Georgina wants to stop feeding to sleep, so she started the Supported Accelerated Approach from the Sombelle program. She reports that following some initial progress, her baby now is calm when first placed in her cot, but after around 10 minutes, she starts to get upset and escalates until she's inconsolable. that sounds tough. She's also had a lot of small poos in her nappies lately and wonders if that relates to her upset at bedtime.
Dr Laura (03:55)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (04:03)
Georgina wonders if the increased crying is a sign that maybe the approach isn't the right fit and would like some advice on what to do.
Dr Laura (04:10)
Georgina, it sounds hard. The first thing that I think about is if there's a change in your baby's nappies, that it would be really important to just get that checked out by your doctor or health nurse, just to ensure that there isn't something going on. For example, if they're small poos, you know, just want to get a check that it's not constipation, for example.
And because that we know that if a baby does have a sore tummy, then that does impact sleep. So I'd really recommend getting that checked out. And then you can address any gut issues that are going on for your little baby before getting back on track with the settling. The other thing I would be thinking about,
Dr Fallon (04:49)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (05:08)
is that I think it's wonderful, Georgina, that you're able to get her, be able to put your baby down in the cot and she's really calm going into the cot. The fact that she's getting frustrated after about 10 minutes is just suggesting to me that she might be getting a bit frustrated. She's going in calm, but can't get herself off to sleep. So I'd probably suggest double checking her sleep needs and just check the...
the new charts that we have as well in Sombelle, which we only put out a couple of weeks ago. So it sounds like you joined a little while ago, so you might not have seen those yet. And just have a look to see whether you need to make any tweaks to the daily rhythm. For example, if it's always taking 10 minutes or a bit longer, 15 minutes for your baby to go to sleep and she's getting frustrated, you might just try moving bedtime 15 minutes later.
Dr Fallon (05:37)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (06:01)
before you start putting her down to sleep and then her sleep pressure might be nice and high and she might not get so frustrated at bedtime. Do you have anything else, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (06:04)
Hmm.
Yeah, I think it's great advice you've given Laura because so often it, you know, often parents say, well, I think the daily rhythms, you know, good enough. It seems okay. But if it is just out by 15 minutes or so, like even just that small window, it's going to mean 15 minutes of a really cranky baby potentially. So it's definitely worth keeping a really close eye on their total sleep needs, especially since sleep needs can suddenly drop a little bit. So often parents will suddenly say, settling was okay. And now it's really not.
Dr Laura (06:26)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (06:38)
And it just needs to be that little tweak made to the rhythm. So yeah, check out the daily rhythm charts in the unique sleep needs chapter for that one. But Georgina, you're doing a great job and you're on the right track. So hopefully that comes together and do let us know how you go or if you've got further questions.
Dr Laura (06:46)
Mm.
So our next question is from Sarah. So Sarah wrote in and she says, thanks so much for the Sombelle course. It's really helped our one year old sleep. That's a pleasure, Sarah. She says, I have a question. Is it normal for things to improve and then worsen again? Prior to doing Sombelle, he was waking every two to four hours and feeding. He couldn't go to sleep without feeding to sleep or being rocked.
Dr Fallon (07:07)
Mm -hmm
Dr Laura (07:22)
We did the accelerated settling approach and he started going to sleep in his cot, which he's never done. that's wonderful. Well done, Sarah. Sarah writes that almost immediately he dropped to one wake at around 3am for a quick feed. However, now about five weeks later, he started waking up more frequently and just wants to feed. He absolutely screams if he doesn't get milk.
Dr Fallon (07:29)
Well done.
Dr Laura (07:48)
Sarah says, I'm thinking of weaning his night feeds, but wasn't sure if it was common that things reversed. He's also started fighting going down again in his cot at the start of the night. What do you reckon Fallon?
Dr Fallon (08:02)
Yeah, look, I would say it's definitely weaning night feeds needs to be part of the equation. You know, so often as they get older, they get a little bit clever. So sometimes if there's been one night feed, they're like, yeah, this is great. And then one night they wake up an extra time and they think, well, I want another one. Why can't I have another one? And you know, by one year of age, they've really learned that if I get really, really cranky and upset,
Dr Laura (08:21)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:28)
Mum's probably going to offer an extra feed or dad's going to offer an extra feed. So often it's just, there's a little bit of learning going on there and that can cause the night feeds to suddenly get really out of hand. And to answer Sarah's question, yeah, it is absolutely normal. We see sleep go really well and then it starts to fall apart and it can be because yeah, they're wanting to feed more or their sleep needs have dropped. There could be something a bit off, could be illness, could be teething. So it is really common to face these things.
Dr Laura (08:32)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (08:55)
always turn back to Somba when this happens because you've got all the resources in there you need to get back on track. So yes, I think reducing night feeds is a good idea. When you do that, you really want to do it a little bit gradually. So we usually would say don't just drop them all together straight away because at the moment your child is allowing for some calorie intake overnight. So they'll be reducing the calorie intake during the day to allow for those calories at night.
when we gradually reduce the night feeds, then they naturally start to, you know, that drive to have more calories in the daytime naturally starts to increase. So it could be that you, you know, decide you're going to offer maybe a maximum of three feeds or two feeds, whatever you want it to be for a few nights. And then after those few nights, then drop it back one feed and then drop it back another. That can be a good way to do it. But in...
Dr Laura (09:31)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (09:48)
Hearing this question, Laura, one of the things I thought, which I probably sound a bit like a broken record on this one, but I think definitely check sleep pressure. It could be that, you know, sleep pressure is just that little lower overnight. And then often when they wake, they're a bit more wakeful and they're lying, they're thinking, what would I like right now? Often a feed is appreciated. And sometimes the feed, you know, the warmness, the closeness, the full tummy can make them.
Dr Laura (09:53)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (10:15)
a little bit more tired and help them get back to sleep again. So check how much sleep he's averaging. Make sure that sleep pressure is nice and high. You could have a look at some of the daily rhythm charts that we've added to Sombelle. They could be helpful for establishing that rhythm. And then I'd work on dropping those night feeds and just using that one approach as you have been doing. I went down all the garden paths with that answer, Laura.
Dr Laura (10:27)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (10:41)
Is there anything I've missed or have I just confused everybody who's listening?
Dr Laura (10:44)
No, not at all. I think it's all good advice. Sarah, your baby is now one. We know that from around one year, so like 12 months of age, babies can begin to drop down to just one nap. So that would be one thing to think about if he's having two naps at the moment and they're two long naps, you might want to look at shortening one of them. So he has one long nap and one short nap or just moving to one nap altogether.
That can be a way to get that sleep pressure nice and high at the start of the night. And yeah, I think then once you have got that sleep pressure right and you've weaned off the night feeds, then going back to using that accelerated settling approach like you did before would be a really good idea. You've used it before, he knows what's going on. And when you use it when sleep pressure is nice and high, he's likely to go, yeah, right, this is...
We're back to doing this again and now I'm ready to go to sleep. And he won't fight it as much as he currently is from what you're describing. So yeah, good luck, Sarah. I think you're going to get back on top of things quite quickly. And just don't panic. And for all of our listeners, if you have tried and you've improved your baby or toddler's sleep and then it suddenly has worsened, don't panic.
Dr Fallon (11:42)
Yes.
Dr Laura (12:10)
Sleep, we often say sleep isn't linear, it goes up and down. Just like as adults, our sleep isn't identical every night of the week. Always make sure that before you make any big changes, that any change, any deterioration in the sleep kind of persists for around about a week, just to rule out that it's not because your little one's coming down with a bug.
Dr Fallon (12:18)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (12:33)
or has teeth coming through or something else big is happening in their life, which is just throwing a spanner in the works. Always just give it a little bit of time just to see if the dust will settle and you can continue using the current daily rhythm that you have. But if it's not improving, then don't worry, reassess the sleep needs. And once you've done that and made some adjustments to the schedule, then get back in with using that one consistent settling approach again and you'll get back on track.
Dr Fallon (12:49)
Mm.
Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I think so often as parents, we want sleep to be a case of set and forget, like I'll fix this problem and then they're just going to be fine. And look, sometimes they are, but so often they're not, you know, there are these ups and downs that are going to happen. It doesn't mean that necessarily the approach is entirely wrong or, you know, often it's just that children are growing and they're naturally changing and we just have to kind of.
Dr Laura (13:02)
once again.
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (13:29)
keep an eye on things and every now and then we've got to straighten up the schedule a bit or change things a little bit just to keep them on track. So yeah, if things go sour, don't panic. You know, you'll be able to get things back on track again. But yeah, it's a great question. Kimberly wrote in with a question, but she also mentioned that her daughter turns one year old today. So happy birthday to Kimberly's little one.
Dr Laura (13:33)
Yeah.
Mm.
Aww.
Dr Fallon (13:56)
And Kimberly, congratulations to you on making it through that first year. Honestly, I feel like first birthday parties should just be entirely about celebrating the parents because the babies really have no clue. It's the parents who have done the most stunning, amazing job. It is just, wow, I remember my children turning one and just, it's a real milestone. And I think you've really got to celebrate it. So do celebrate it, Kimberly. You're doing a wonderful job.
Dr Laura (14:06)
Yes, I agree.
No.
Dr Fallon (14:26)
So Kimberly says her daughter's sleep need is roughly 12 to 12 and a half hours and she asks with the new Sombelle daily rhythm charts it suggests naps of one hour and half an hour but doesn't matter the order that these are done. Is it beneficial to have the longer nap first and can I switch the naps around if we have an activity to go to?
Dr Laura (14:50)
Great question, Kimberly. Look, essentially, when you're just switching to a new schedule, it doesn't really matter where the longer nap is and where the shorter nap is. What we do tend to find is that over time, most babies start to have a preference for one or the other. And they, as in,
they might just start to always have the longer nap in the morning and the shorter nap in the afternoon. And some, their preference is the other way around. And generally it isn't a big issue until we get closer to the point where your baby is gonna be dropping down to one nap. And at that point we might say, well, let's see if we can try to get them to have their longer nap in the morning and their shorter nap in the afternoon, because then,
as they get close to dropping to one nap, we can then drop that short afternoon nap, move that morning nap into the middle of the day. And they're already a little bit more accustomed to having higher sleep pressure in the afternoon and can cope with it a bit better. If you find that your baby generally has a long nap in the morning and a short nap in the afternoon, but you do have activities to get out and about to, you know, often there's library time or...
Dr Fallon (16:05)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Laura (16:17)
a Jim Baroo at 10 o 'clock in the morning. It's okay if on those days you wake your baby from their nap after just a short nap and then you know that you've got the longer nap up your sleeve for them to have that afternoon. What do you think Fallon, would you say anything different?
Dr Fallon (16:33)
Mmm.
It's so interesting hearing you talk about that switch to one nap, because I've never even really thought about it in that way. But yeah, it's a really good point. Look, I just tend to say if they're having three or more naps, don't have the longest nap at the end of the day. That typically doesn't work. Once they're on two naps, it doesn't matter quite so much. And I think often babies or toddlers, they just develop a preference, like you say, Laura, for where they have that longer nap.
But I would still say, even if they're having the longer nap in the afternoon, and that's their preference and they're enjoying it and it's all good, if their nights are challenging or if bedtime is difficult, that's when I'd say maybe try and flip it around if you can. We don't always get a say. You might just find that all you can get are two short naps because you just can't get the long nap happening in the morning. And that might just be how it needs to be from that point if the bedtime settles tricky.
Dr Laura (17:23)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (17:30)
But yeah, so look, we've gone down a few garden paths there again, I can't believe it. I think the short answer is on the days when you've got an activity, it's totally fine to wake them early. Maybe they'll sleep on the way to that activity. And if they need a longer nap in the afternoon, you know, let them have it. Yeah, and that should be fine. Great.
Dr Laura (17:33)
You
Yeah. All right. So our next question is from Tara. So Tara has some questions about the quick fade approach. So her baby is seven months old. She was patting and shushing him to sleep in her arms and then placing him in his cot, but is now aiming to pat and shush in the cot until he sleeps. That's great, Tara. It sounds like you're progressing through the steps for the quick fade approach.
He's now crying when placed in his cot and has started waking frequently. Some settles take two hours. Wow. And picking him up for a cuddle isn't calming him. gosh, Tara, that sounds hard. Tara describes that he constantly moves around his cot, which makes it hard to pat him. Look, I think we should probably just pause there, Fallon, and just before we go into Tara's questions, just to discuss some of those details.
Dr Fallon (18:26)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (18:42)
that Tara's given us. Now, what jumps out at me is that Tara is describing that it's taking sometimes two hours to settle her baby to sleep. And when I read that from a parent, I really feel for them because it's telling me that Tara is so invested in helping her baby get all of the sleep that he needs, that she is...
Dr Fallon (18:42)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (19:12)
you know, struggling sometimes for a very, very long period of time to help support him to go to sleep. Now, what it tells me when it's taking a child that long to go to sleep is that there is a sleep pressure issue going on and low sleep pressure at the point that you're trying to settle him to sleep, Tara, is likely to be a really big factor in why it's taking him so long to go to sleep. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (19:36)
Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I agree, Laura. I think given that you're there to offer that support, that hands on support, even with that support, he's still not settling. Yeah. If, if sleep pressure was really high, he would maybe fuss a bit for a while because he's like, what are you doing? I'd much rather be in your arms. But then we'd expect him to settle pretty quickly because that drive to sleep is getting stronger and stronger.
Dr Laura (19:45)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (20:04)
so I would say definitely be thinking about, measuring how much sleep he's, he's having on average and then really working, up a daily rhythm that fits that. I also think too, Laura, you know, when they're old enough that they're moving around the cot a lot and you're trying to pat them to sleep and they're like, you know, you're patting up and down and all around. Yeah, it's, God, it's just so stressful for parents. it just might not be the right fit. It really, that.
Dr Laura (20:04)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
You're chasing them around! Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (20:34)
that approach, the quick fade, if they're not going to lie still, it can be pretty hard to make progress because they, yeah, they're just gonna keep moving. Some parents will say, if they crawl out from under my hand, I just keep patting the cot while they're crawling around. I mean, you could try that, but I'd be inclined to maybe have a read through the steps for the supported accelerated approach, which is where you're staying present, but you're patting more intermittently.
Dr Laura (20:40)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (20:59)
And that can mean that every now and then you lay them down, quickly do your pets and then you wait a few moments. And that can often be easier for the ones who like to travel around the cots. So yeah, do have a think about whether that could be a better option. But I know Tara's got some questions about the quick fade approach. So I think we still go ahead and answer those if she decides to go ahead with the quick fade. And it might help other parents who are also doing that approach as
Dr Laura (21:09)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Hmm.
All right. So Tara wonders if after cuddling her baby for a couple of minutes, he's still upset. Should she put him back down and continue with the patting or should she cuddle him until he's calm? What do you reckon Fallon?
Dr Fallon (21:39)
Hmm. Yeah, it's a fantastic question. That's a really common one we get as well. Look, I would say if your aim is for him to fall asleep in the cot, obviously what you're aiming to do, even if he's still a bit cranky with you and you're cuddling him, I would get him back in the cot and persist with the hands on support. He might get mad about it and he might protest a lot, but we know that he's not scared or frightened. You're still there with him. You're still putting you're right beside him.
Dr Laura (21:44)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:06)
but it's just that sometimes, especially older babies, they start to realize, well, when I get picked up for a cuddle, as long as I keep crying, I'll never get put back down again. And then there goes that escalation in crying that just absolutely takes off. And it can just be so challenging to cope with as parents. And then, yeah, obviously very unhappy babies as well. So I would say, you know, limit the cuddle to maybe a couple of minutes and then pop him back down and keep patting.
Dr Laura (22:17)
Yes.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (22:36)
That's what I tend to do.
Dr Laura (22:36)
Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise we end up seeing families who are doing it. First of all, it's a two minute cuddle and then it's a three minute and then it's a five minute and then it's 10 minutes and then it's 15 minutes and then the baby's falling asleep in mum or dad's arms again. So it's really hard to keep making that progress. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (22:44)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Well, interesting you say that because I noticed one of Tara's questions is that sometimes he does fall asleep in Tara's arms during the cuddle and is that okay or should we avoid it?
Dr Laura (22:58)
yes. Yeah. Yeah. So definitely, since you are working on cot settling and you want him to be able to go to sleep in the cot, then that is something that you want to avoid. So when you pick him up for a cuddle, you're only wanting to cuddle him for, you know, let's say it's two minutes maximum. But if he's starting to be very calm in your arms during that,
cuddle and to such an extent that he's falling asleep, then you can, you don't have to hold him in your arms for that whole two minutes. It would, you know, you just hold him for a few seconds and that the cuddle might get shorter and shorter each time you pick him up. And so that you're always aiming to pop him back down into the cot so that he's lying on the mattress as he goes off to sleep rather than being in your arms. Now she's also asked a related question, which is,
if when she's patting her baby, he's not crying at the end of the 10 minutes, she's asked, should she pick him up for a cuddle or keep patting him until he's asleep? It's really important to just keep patting him because the reason we put those cuddles in every 10 minutes or whichever interval you're using is so that you can give him that physical reassurance and that lovely close contact and you're okay, I'm okay, everything's all right.
Dr Fallon (24:11)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (24:26)
and then we carry on with the patting. If he's actually just calming in his cot with the patting, at the end of that patting period, if he's very calm, he's not crying, you just keep on going. Yeah, yeah. So you just pat him all the way off to sleep. And then it's at that point when Tara, your baby is going to sleep with the patting alone and not needing to have those cuddles every so often.
Dr Fallon (24:27)
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Laura (24:54)
That's when you can move on to the next step, which is weaning off the patting. Because the ultimate aim is for your baby to go to sleep whilst your hands are off him. So we just go very, very slowly to get there. And it's really important that we just keep making the progress.
Dr Fallon (25:12)
Yeah. Yep. I think that's really good advice. I noticed Tara also asked about whether her and her partner should take turns with the settling. you know, it seems like he only wants Tara to settle him, but should they sort of start to share it now or later? I don't know about you. I think it so depends on the family. Doesn't it look sometimes when the partner comes in and does it.
Dr Laura (25:14)
Hmm.
Mmm. Mmm.
Dr Fallon (25:35)
we're all surprised that actually the baby settles much faster for this other parent and then that's easier for them to do a lot more of the settling. But it can vary. What do you tend to say to parents, Laura?
Dr Laura (25:45)
Yeah. Yeah, it really depends on the family. If what's happening is that, say Tara's partner goes in and gives it a red hot go for 10, 15, 20 minutes to settle the baby and the baby becomes more and more escalated and then Tara comes in and takes over. What can then end up happening is that the baby learns, right. Okay.
this is, this is what I need to do. And I need to cry for 10, 15, 20 minutes before mum comes in. And that is not what we want to be teaching a baby, that they have to cry and really escalate their behaviour in order to get the cuddles from the other parent. So if you are going to share the settling and it's absolutely fine to do it, of course, if you've got a partner, they're also the parent of the child. So it's
Dr Fallon (26:28)
Yeah.
Yep.
Dr Laura (26:43)
makes sense to share the responsibility for helping and supporting the sleep of the baby. It's really important that whoever is doing the settling just keeps going until the baby is asleep. If you're not going to be doing tag teaming and with something like the quick fade approach, it doesn't really lean towards tag teaming within the settling.
Dr Fallon (27:01)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (27:13)
whereas, I mean, you could, you could, I suppose, do 10, one of you do 10 minutes and a two minute cuddle. And then the other one come in and do 10 minutes of patting and a two minute cuddle. But, I think it might be a little bit confusing. I tend to suggest with these approaches that one parent sticks with it until the baby is asleep. And then you can, when the baby wakes up again, the other parent can go in and do the, settling. but it's kind of horses for courses. If you have, if you just think.
Dr Fallon (27:14)
Hmm.
Yeah
Dr Laura (27:43)
Dad, for example, is only at home at bedtime one day a week and all the other times it's mum, then just mum take the lead on it rather than bringing in a different parent just one night out of seven. Yeah, look, I think I've probably just gone all the way around the houses again with that answer, Fallon.
Dr Fallon (27:59)
Mmm.
Yeah. What does give parents all the different options? And I noticed Tara also wanted to know at what point should she seek further support? And I think that's another one without an exact sort of clear answer. I think at any point, if you are really unsure, you just want to have a chat to get all your ideas straightened out in your head. Of course you can just book in for a coaching call.
Dr Laura (28:09)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:29)
you know, we're not going to knock you back and say, no, you haven't done this for long enough. You can book in whenever you like. Cause sometimes parents just really need that chat to get the confidence and a clear plan in place to take things forward. But I would say Tara, have a think about how we've answered this question. Maybe it is worth trying a different approach. Have a think about the daily rhythm as well. and yeah, have a think about what you'd like to do going forward. Maybe try out something new for a week and see how things go.
Dr Laura (28:33)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:57)
And yeah, if you need support, of course, we're always here for that. We also have a question that came in from Laura, but we have a couple of Laura's this week. Well, we've got three really, haven't we, if we include you. But this Laura wrote in for advice for her 16 month old toddler. She says, they used Sombelle when she was 10 months old and helped wean off night feeds.
Dr Laura (29:01)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:23)
She had some minor relapses and they used Sombelle to get her sleep back on track each time. Brilliant. Well done. So Laura says whilst she no longer wakes overnight, she does wake extremely early in the morning at around 4 to 4 .40 AM. Ouch. That's not great. Laura says we've tried many things to tweak this, including not bringing her into the bed to feed her in the mornings and changing her nap times around as well.
Dr Laura (29:38)
yeah, ouch. Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:51)
but mostly she is up and ready to go for the day at this time. We have calculated her sleep needs to be between nine and nine and a half hours, which is very low. Yeah, Laura says she has approximately seven and a half hours overnight and one and a half hours during the day. Her nap is from 1130 AM to 1 PM and her bedtime is around about quarter past seven to 730.
Dr Laura (30:01)
Mmm, it is really low.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (30:18)
Laura says, we acknowledge that we are putting her down too early in the evening, but here's the catch. this is common to so many families, Laura. She says her older sister is three and has an overnight sleep requirement of 12 to 13 hours. So that's a higher sleep need. If we allow the 16 month old to stay up until nine or nine 30, her older sister will not want to go to bed.
Dr Laura (30:24)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (30:43)
We're both working parents that need to get out the door early in the morning. So allowing a three year old to sleep later the next day is not an option. That's a really tough situation. when you've got two children with very different sleep needs. And I know from my own personal experience, the older children definitely do not like it when the younger siblings stay up later than them. It's really tough situation. what do you think they should start with?
Dr Laura (30:54)
Yeah, that is.
No. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (31:11)
Laura, what are your first thoughts?
Dr Laura (31:13)
My first thoughts are to reduce the length of the nap for the 16 month old toddler. So given that she's having an hour and a half during the day, she's probably got sleep cycles of around about 45 minutes. So I would be trimming that nap to 45 minutes maximum. And then that gives a little bit more, you know, eight hours overnight.
Dr Fallon (31:21)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:39)
And when you have a toddler with such a low sleep needs, and I just want to acknowledge that that is a very low sleep need toddler. Of course they're out there. Someone has to be out there, just like somebody's got to be right at the tail end of the weight scale, the weight bell shaped curve and the height bell shaped curve. Someone's got to be there. So Laura's toddler is there. So yeah, trimming the nap would be my first suggestion so that we can claw back an extra half hour for overnight sleep.
Dr Fallon (31:48)
Mmm.
Yes.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (32:11)
My next piece of advice would be that there really is no other way to get a longer sleep in in the morning apart from putting your toddler to bed later. So I'd be thinking, I know it's awful. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (32:24)
I know it's gonna feel so devastating for poor Laura listening to this. It's really tough, but I often say the maths ain't math -ing. And that's what it's like with a baby or toddler with a really low sleep need. It sounds like Laura's done the experimenting and she knows that 4am her daughter's up.
Dr Laura (32:36)
Yes!
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (32:48)
you know, she's met her sleep needs and she's been thinking about this for a while. She started Sombelle at 10 months. So, you know, I trust that they really understand what her sleep need is. and unless we push it later, there just isn't a way to get that longer sleep in. But I do want to say often when I speak to families about this and I can see the devastation on their faces when they're in the clinic and we, you know, these are extenuating circumstances. These are not clients we see every day. This is quite rare for a child to have a lower sleep need like this, but.
Dr Laura (32:54)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (33:17)
parents often look really crestfallen. And what I say is that even when they've got a really low sleep need, we can still find a way for everyone to get good rest and we can find a way to get everybody's needs met. And it's going to feel better than what's happening at the moment. So at the moment they're exhausted from being up so early. Even if we have to tweak some things and come up with a new daily rhythm and it's going to feel really hard at first, once we get them into that pattern,
Dr Laura (33:35)
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (33:46)
it's going to feel so much easier because you're going to have a child who's sleeping as long as they can at night, waking up happy, ready to go. And families do find their feet, even when sleep needs are this painfully low. So sorry to interject, but I just think it's really worth saying that because it can feel incredibly challenging for families. I just want to hug Laura. It's really tough.
Dr Laura (33:52)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yes, I know. I really feel for you, Laura. It's such a tricky situation. I mean, it's bad enough, Fallon, when I see families in clinic who just have one baby with or a toddler with low sleep needs without having the added complication of an older child with higher sleep needs. And, you know, that, my heart goes out to you, Laura. It's a really,
Dr Fallon (34:31)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (34:38)
tricky situation that you're in, managing the low sleep needs of your toddler, the higher sleep needs of your older child, who's only three. So it's still only just out of toddlerhood herself. And what we probably need to talk about next Fallon is how to help Laura with the three year old. Yeah, did you have any thoughts about that?
Dr Fallon (34:41)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree. Well, look, first of all, I would say I would probably be aiming for 45 minute nap like you suggested, Laura. And then I think probably the bedtime and wake up time that might work best for this family would be something like a 9pm bedtime and a 6am wake up. So actually aiming for just under 10 hours of sleep, but that's a good place to start. We can see how that's going in a couple of weeks time if she's just absolutely unable to make nine and three quarter hours total day sleep.
Dr Laura (35:10)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (35:31)
then we can look at trimming the schedule further if we need to. But I would start with something like that. So then in terms of how do you do that with a three year old, it is really tough, but I feel like it's gonna be necessary for everyone to get better rest. What I would be thinking about is it could be, there's so many ways we can do this and often it does require a bit of logistical planning in appointments. But.
Dr Laura (35:34)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (35:57)
I would say tag teaming, like it might be that one parent takes a 16 month old for an activity you know will keep them calm and quiet. So that could be anything. It could be looking at books, it could be playing with toys. Think about the volume your 16 month old has during different activities. If it has to be TV time, so be it. Like sit down and watch Bluey together. Your three year old doesn't need to know that that's happening.
Dr Laura (36:15)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:20)
It could be that they think their 16 month old sibling has gone to bed and they don't actually realize that they're staying up a bit later. It depends on the layout of your house and how you can kind of manage that. So that's the first thing I'd be thinking about is divide and conquer one parent with one with each child. And then I'd be thinking with the three year old, probably doing something like a reward chart. So if she is aware of her younger sibling is awake and is a little bit reluctant to go to bed.
Dr Laura (36:20)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (36:50)
It could be that you build in some really simple rewards. So it could be that you need to stay in the room with your three year old while they fall asleep. Otherwise they're going to run out and try and join in on what the 16 month old is doing. But maybe the first goal of your reward chart is, I'm going to sit beside you, but you need to stay in your bed. And if you stay in your bed until you fall asleep, then first thing in the morning, we're going to have this treat. It might be a Choccy frog. It could be an episode of boy, whatever, you know, is fine. But then you're really building it around motivating your three year old.
to still go to sleep even if her sister is still up. And that can work really well if they're feeling really motivated. Plus we know this three year old's got a higher sleep needs. So their sleep drive is probably gonna be pretty strong at whatever their bedtime is. And for the first few nights of that reward chart, you could even push their bedtime just slightly later so you know sleep pressure is really, really high and that might make for an easier settle as well. So there's a couple of ideas. I think it depends so much on the individual.
Dr Laura (37:30)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (37:48)
circumstances but do you have any other thoughts on that one Laura?
Dr Laura (37:52)
No, I would, I think you've given some great advice there Fallon. I think that your three year old may really like the idea of just having that one -on -one time with mum or dad at bedtime. So you could really use that as the carrot that whilst the other parent is dealing with the toddler, you're sitting on the chair in the room with the three year old.
Dr Fallon (38:12)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (38:20)
And having, you know, taking her into the room, you know, maybe 15 minutes before she's going to be ready to sleep just to have a nice special time with mum or dad. So it becomes something that is motivating for the three year old so that she kind of forgets a little bit about what's going on with the, with her younger sibling and is more focused on the great thing that's happening with dad or mum in her bedroom. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (38:28)
Mmm.
Yes. Yeah. So they're a little bit distracted about something new and nice that you've planned and aren't noticing that actually does take them the 16 month old and they're watching Bluey in the next room very, very quietly. Yeah. Yeah. It just takes a little bit of strategizing, but look, it's well worth working on. If you're really stuck, Laura, of course we can always have a bit of a chat if you need it. But maybe give some of those ideas a try. And we do hope it comes together for you. So let us know.
Dr Laura (38:52)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (39:17)
how things are going.
Dr Laura (39:18)
Yeah. All right.
an email from another Kim. We need to have a little chart, Fallon, of people's names who joined Sombelle. It's Kim's and Laura's. Yeah. So Kim wrote in to ask for advice on her toddler who turns three in July. So quite soon. Most nights of the week, he wakes and screams or cries out one to two times. Sometimes it's a quick
Dr Fallon (39:23)
Hehehehehe
Yes, it's all Kims and Lauras this week.
Dr Laura (39:47)
cry and he goes back to sleep before we go in. Other times he cries for longer or gets out of bed. So we give him a cuddle and put him back to bed. He falls asleep in bed on his own at the start of the night and he has a consistent bedtime of around 7 .30pm and no longer has a day nap. What should we do to support him when he does wake? And is there anything else we can do so that he doesn't wake and scream?
or they have the added complication of they have a 10 month old baby who's in the room with them. And they really want the two children to be able to share a room eventually. But they can't at the moment whilst the three year old or nearly three year old is still waking up and crying out in the night. gosh, all these tricky situations. Gosh, my heart goes out to all these families across Australia who are just...
Dr Fallon (40:35)
Mmm.
Yeah. it's so hard juggling a baby and a toddler. It's I remember it very well. Look, first of all, I would say with your three year old, I love that you're waiting. It sounds like you're waiting. So sometimes he'll just let out a bit of a squawk and then go back to sleep. And that's really common. He's actually probably not fully awake. He's probably in the very light stages of sleep.
Dr Laura (40:43)
Doing a juggle. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (41:05)
And sometimes children are very noisy at that time. So it's perfect to be waiting a few minutes, I'd say five minutes or so, or some parents even wait 10 minutes, just listen to those sounds and see if he can put himself back to sleep. Then for the ones where it doesn't work. So maybe he gets out of bed or you just, he's crying a lot. So you go into him. I would be thinking of one way of responding each time. So what we want to tell our three year olds when they wake at night is that it's really boring. Like nothing fun is going to happen.
Dr Laura (41:10)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (41:33)
we're not going to do anything very exciting. So it could be something like you go in, give him a cuddle for a minute, lay him down, and then you maybe give him a few pats and say good night and then you wander away. And for some three year olds are like, yep, that's fine, good, done. And you just do that really consistently. If he's really worried and wanting you to stay there, then it could be that you do sit there until he falls back asleep, but you're not going to be.
Dr Laura (41:37)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (42:02)
singing different songs or telling him stories or talking about all sorts of things, you're just going to sit there very quietly and every now and then you might reach over and give him a little pat and say, come on, it's time for sleep now. Same phrase, same pats, you know, like with so many of our approaches, just be really consistent so that he's not thinking, well, I want to wake up at 2am because one time dad took me to the kitchen for a cup of milk, something like that. That can be very motivating for a three year old. So I'd keep that very plain and boring, that response.
Dr Laura (42:04)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (42:32)
And chances are it will just start to go away once he realizes nothing exciting is happening. And then onto having them share a room. You could just put them in together. It's really surprising how often parents are worried that they're gonna wake each other and they actually don't. So you could just try it and see how it goes. I would say you could even think about getting them used to some white noise now. If you wanna use white noise so that it sort of masks the sound a little bit.
Dr Laura (42:32)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (43:00)
That can be really helpful. It might be that you put it somewhere in the room, not super loud, but just loud enough that if someone's having a bit of a grizzle and a grumble, it takes the edge off that sound and it's less likely to pull the other child out of sleep. Yeah, so I hope that helps. Have I forgotten anything there, Laura? Is there anything you'd add to that?
Dr Laura (43:14)
Yeah.
The only thing I would add is that it might be a nice idea to add in some special one on one play during the day with your nearly three year old. Sometimes we find that children that age, particularly when they've got a younger sibling vying for their parents attention, they will wake up in the night in order to have some connection with mum or dad. So it may not be what's the good
Dr Fallon (43:28)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (43:49)
the cause of this. But it's always a nice thing to add in anyway, just to, and I think we have some information on special play in Sombelle Fallon from...
Dr Fallon (43:55)
Mm.
look and I don't think we actually do but it's something we could we could add though. So special play the idea is and I'm gonna describe this now because I know that the next question I'd sort of I was thinking this is one we'll talk about special play for so we might as well dive into it now but with special play what you want to do is definitely use it if you've got a baby on the way and a toddler or you've just had a baby and you've got a toddler you want to start doing this with your toddler it's basically
Dr Laura (44:06)
Hmm.
okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (44:28)
special playtime that is absolutely protected from the baby or other siblings, where it's just you and your child, it goes for 10 or 15 minutes and you tell them it's happening. So you say, hey, let's go and do our special playtime. And I usually tell families to do it at the same time every day. Like it might be after breakfast with dad and then before dinner with mom or something like that. But essentially you would have a space for it where there's little other distractions. So it could be their bedroom or something like that.
Dr Laura (44:33)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (44:55)
And you don't have your phone, you don't have the baby with you. So this is where parents need to work together on this one. And during this special play time, your job is not to try to entertain your child. Your job is to just follow their lead. So if your child picks up, you know, the little red car, you might say, isn't that a great car? I wonder how fast it goes. You know, something like that. So you're just kind of commenting on what it is they're interested in and you're meeting them where they're at and letting them kind of guide that play.
Dr Laura (45:00)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (45:24)
which is really powerful because they're controlling what you're playing with and you're not trying to change it. You're just going with it and you're entirely immersed in their play. It's incredibly powerful because if your child can get 10 or 15 minutes of that intense one -on -one time every day, it fills their bucket. And for so many parents, they'll say, we do it after brekkie. And then the rest of the day, they're not clinging to me all the time and they're not getting angry when I'm trying to feed the baby and...
Dr Laura (45:30)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (45:52)
they feel like they've had their special time. So if you're expecting a baby or you've had one, we often say to parents, protect the special play time at all costs, because everything else about that household is going to be completely turned on its head when a baby arrives. But if you can protect that time, then your toddler starts to realize, yeah, I've got this really special time with mum or dad that always happens. Anyway, that's a lot of information for a question that probably didn't need all of that, but.
Dr Laura (45:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (46:21)
I think it's really helpful for parents listening in who might be struggling with some overnight wakes where they just seem to want a bit of a cuddle. So often they're just needing that little bit of attention. And if we give them that little bit more in the daytime in that very meaningful way, it pays off in dividends and you'll do it with your children. Even when they're older, even now I still go with mine or something's a bit off with them. I'm just going to have some time with just me and them, you know, close one on one time. And it just sets things back on course again. So yeah.
Dr Laura (46:27)
Yes.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, so I think those are lots of good tips for Kim. So try those out and yeah, let us know and give us an update. Perhaps when you move them into the room together, let us know how that how that goes. So shall we move on to our next question, Fallon? Do you want me to read it out or do you want to read it out? Yeah, okay, so.
Dr Fallon (47:03)
Mmm.
Yeah, yep.
Yeah, go for it.
Dr Laura (47:15)
Nic has written in to say, thank you so much for such a great resource. I'm always seeking evidence based information. And after we had such a terrible sleeping journey with our firstborn, which we are still experiencing and have an appointment for in a few weeks time. yeah, that's right. Yeah, looking forward to seeing you, Nic. We are so motivated to make this time different.
Our bub is currently seven weeks old. really little. Congratulations, Nic, on your arrival of your little baby. Our eldest is almost two and a half. Our eldest is struggling to adapt to having a sibling. I can see why Phalaen, you were saying this would be the one that we're talking about special play. And yeah, and subsequently has become demanding of our time and is making settling for our newborn very hard. Nic says,
Dr Fallon (47:43)
Yeah.
Hmmmm...
Yeah.
Dr Laura (48:07)
I am breastfeeding and we have been feeding, walking or rocking to sleep. We have been mostly doing a feed, change, play and sleep rhythm during the day. Sometimes needing a feed before sleep, especially in the afternoons and obviously overnight. Baby sleeps in the cot overnight and has two to three wakes between eight o 'clock at night and seven in the morning. And the baby also has between five and six naps a day.
That all sounds very normal for a seven week old Nic. Since joining Sombelle a week ago, during the day we've been trying to settle her in the cot with pats and shushing, mostly for her first two naps. But we do end up with one to two contact naps during the day, either in the pram, carrier or our arms, just for convenience with our toddler being out and about or getting dinner ready, et cetera.
Often we also choose to opt for a contact nap as baby will usually link cycles and sleep longer. So far she links cycles overnight and we've had one or two successes in the day. She tends to be very vocal, crying a lot when she is awake, which is making caring for our toddler harder too. We are rocking or cuddling during unsettled awake periods. Sometimes this leads to a contact nap.
and is why we like to use the carrier. We are also avoiding cot settling when our toddler is home from daycare to prioritise spending time with her as her behaviour and sleep is worsening with the new bub. goodness, yeah, gosh, that's, you've got a lot on Nic.
Dr Fallon (49:45)
Mmm.
Yeah, you know, it's interesting hearing Nic say that because it might actually be the case that when the baby is able to settle in their cot more easily, then when your toddler's home from daycare, you end up with more time of just you and your toddler. And that can make a difference. I think a lot of toddlers are like, that baby, they're still here. I don't know when they're going home again, but they're still here and they're strapped to mum or they're always there. So it could actually help. I think.
Dr Laura (50:02)
Yes.
I'm sorry.
Dr Fallon (50:15)
you know, keeping on working on the cot settling. Because when you get to that point where you can put the baby down and they can put themselves off to sleep, then your toddler is going to feel like they've got you back again, which can really help.
Dr Laura (50:17)
Mmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Nic says, I've completed a seven day diary and bub sleeps about 16 hours a day. We consistently wake at 6 .30 to 7 a
So my questions about our naps are… First of all, is it OK to be working on cot settling this early with a flexible daily flow?
Dr Fallon (50:47)
Yes, definitely. When they're this little, they can get used to falling asleep anywhere. So the more you practice settling in the cot, the less worried your baby will be about it. It'll just start to be a really normal place to fall asleep. So yeah, it's totally fine to start to practice that now.
Dr Laura (50:52)
Mm.
Will having a few contact naps or naps in carriers, etc. cause confusion or decrease our success in the cot? This is our last baby and I do want to enjoy some of those newborn snuggles.
Dr Fallon (51:15)
Of course you do. Of course. They're the best kind of snuggles. Look, I would say at seven weeks of age, is it going to cause confusion? Probably not. As they're getting closer to, I would say closer to three months, four months, then it does start to cause confusion. And then they can start to just absolutely crack it when you take them near the cot because they're thinking, well, sometimes I have a cuddle to sleep and I'd rather have that instead.
Dr Laura (51:20)
You
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (51:42)
At this early age, it's totally fine to just give them some experience of falling asleep in their cot. It doesn't have to be every single settle, but just having some in there, like the two that you talk about, if you did those every day, that's brilliant. It means that they're going to be always be comfortable settling there. Yeah. So I think that's totally fine. You've got to enjoy those snuggles.
Dr Laura (51:56)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. Her next third question is, is it okay for her to become drowsy whilst we're carrying her around doing jobs or comforting her, etc, before starting to do the nap or bed routine of white noise, swaddle, cot settle? Or will she associate this walking with settling to sleep?
Dr Fallon (52:23)
Brilliant question. Look, some people would say if you're helping them get drowsy, there's a good chance they're in stage one or two of sleep when they're drowsy in your arms. So I would say it's not going to matter too much if sometimes they're drowsy before you put them down in little babies. Of course, it doesn't matter too much. But if you're thinking I really want to get some cot settling happening, then try to do some of those settles where they're not drowsy, where they are just being put down awake and they're
aware that they're falling asleep in their cot. So there's no hard and fast rule on this one. You know, if you were saying you had triplets and you desperately need them all to cot settle, I would say don't get them drowsy, put them down awake in their cot. You know, that would be more of a priority in that case. But if you're not in a mad hurry, it's fine. Just some of them will be drowsy and others won't be and that's totally fine.
Dr Laura (53:08)
Yeah.
And Nic's last question to do with naps is, in a few weeks, my husband goes back to work and I will start heading out each morning for play group or aerobics, etc. Good on you, Nic. That's good to hear. This will mean at least the first two naps of the day will be in the pram, car or rocking. I really don't want to get stuck at home being a slave to a nap schedule. What are the best strategies for maintaining the outings and healthy sleep and settling whilst out and about?
Dr Fallon (53:27)
Excellent. Yeah.
Another excellent question. Look, I think naps in the pram or the car are completely fine. Totally fine. I mean, yes, there's a little bit of movement, but mostly your baby is falling asleep without having hands on support. It's somewhat similar to being in the cot in that they're, you know, on their back when they're falling asleep, you've got to get out and about and do things. So you don't need to feel bad about that at all.
Dr Laura (53:53)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (54:08)
and we don't want you to be a slave to a nap schedule. Sometimes we do suggest parents stick really firmly to a particular schedule, but it's only because their babies are older and they've got a circadian rhythm disruption, which means that we really have to try and push a bit of a rhythm to resolve that. So yes, still go and do your outings. You might plan to do some of the naps, you know, in the car when you're on the move or in the pram.
Dr Laura (54:17)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (54:32)
And you might, if you, you know, you're wanting to work on some cot settling by the sounds of it. So maybe you do the work on cot settles for the later naps in the day and at bedtime. and that would be totally fine to do that.
Dr Laura (54:39)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think actually, if we think back to one of the questions we answered earlier, where a member wrote in about their older child wanting to know which nap should be the longer of the two that the baby was having, and we said, it's okay, if you've got something on, you've got an activity you want to go to, it's okay to wait your baby from a nap earlier so that you can get out and about to do whatever activity it is.
Dr Fallon (54:55)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (55:07)
Just try to time it at the end of a sleep cycle. Now, when it comes to Nic, you've got a very little baby, so you might not yet be entirely sure how long your baby's sleep cycle is. But it's okay to wake a sleeping baby. So don't worry that you're doing anything wrong there. All right. And Nic has also sent a couple of questions about supporting sleep.
Dr Fallon (55:18)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (55:34)
So she says we're trying a dummy with our second child after the first one never took it. Can you give some tips on how and when we should use it? At the moment we're just using it at night to assist with settling. She'll often spit it out or sometimes won't take it. I'm finding success using it when she is stirring after two to three hours to get more sleep. She'll settle during the day without it. Is it worth persevering?
Dr Fallon (56:02)
Hmm. it's another one of these ones that could go either way. Part of me thinks if a baby loves their dummy, they just love their dummy and they'll want it all the time. It's one of their tools for helping stay calm or helping themselves calm down. So on the one hand, I'm thinking, well, they don't really love it. Maybe you just don't bother with it. And then they never have a dummy and they just learn other ways of settling off to sleep. So that's totally an option, but I love that it's helping you get a little bit more sleep at times as well.
Dr Laura (56:04)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (56:32)
So it could just be that you maybe you just keep it for sleep and maybe it's going to be a great help when you do maybe in a couple of months you think okay we're going to do all the settles in the cot now you know my baby's ready for it and having that dummy might make that a whole lot easier because it's a sleep association they're taking from falling asleep in your arms to then still having it in the cot.
Dr Laura (56:32)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (56:52)
So I'm sorry, Nic, I'm not giving you like a yes, do this type answer. I think way up the pros and the cons. Either option is totally fine to do. They each have their own sort of pros and cons associated with them.
Dr Laura (56:55)
Hmm.
Yeah, and we do have episodes where we talk about dummies in more detail. So have a check out of the back catalogue. And there's also the sections on dummy use in the, in Sombelle too. Nic's final question is regarding swaddling and wraps. So her baby currently thrashes, grunts, and eventually gets her hands out, which then disturbs her sleep. this may well feed into whether you continue with the dummy.
Dr Fallon (57:10)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (57:36)
Because if she's going to be knocking her dummy out, that might be something that you, since she doesn't love it, you might just say, well, do you know what, we'll just say goodbye to the dummy now. Now she says, this is mostly overnight after about two hours of sleep. Would you suggest an arms up swaddling bag instead, or is it likely something else is bothering her such as wind and hunger that's causing her to move around?
Dr Fallon (57:36)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Hmm. Look, I think swaddling is great. Wrapping them up. Yeah, it's great. It can really help to reduce that movement and can mean more settled sleep. It's probably not wind or hunger. Yeah, because it's after two hours of sleep. So hunger is probably not an issue. One of the swaddles that I'm a really big fan of for exactly these types of cases is the burrito baby wrap.
So it comes with like little arm holes. They're like built into the wrap that you can put their arms in. And then you've got the option of either having their arms up near their face, if that's how they prefer to sleep, or you can wrap them with their arms down and kind of across their tummy. So there's that kind of versatility there. And those wraps are really made for small babies. So that's an option. I'll put a link in our show notes to those wraps, because I think so many parents find them really helpful.
Dr Laura (58:33)
Hmm.
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (58:57)
And yeah, you could give that a bit of a try. It just means you've got that flexibility. Try it one way, see how the night is chilling, try it the other way and see how things change. But I wouldn't be so worried about wind. And yeah, if it's only been two hours that she's had a decent feed, it's probably not going to be hunger either. Yeah. So Nic, we probably could have given you an entire episode on newborn sleep, which maybe we need to do one of those soon. If there's enough interest in it, we could go into newborn sleep.
Dr Laura (59:01)
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Hmm.
Hehehe
Yes, maybe we should.
Dr Fallon (59:25)
And if you are listening to this episode, the day it comes out tomorrow, which is Tuesday, the 21st of May, I'm doing the newborn sleep webinar for the raising children's network. So it's entirely free. It's a webinar that goes for an hour where I'll be talking all about newborn sleep and there's some strategies and stuff that we talk about in that webinar as well. So yeah, if you've got a really little baby, tune into that one. It's a really great session. It's...
Dr Laura (59:37)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (59:53)
8pm Australian Eastern Standard Time tomorrow. And I'll put a link in the show notes of that one as well for those who are keen. And I might also, yeah, do an announcement in our babies program about that one as well. So you can click through and sign up for it. this is such a long episode, isn't it Laura? But we've got one last question we're going to squeeze in and it's from our second Laura. So this is a Laura who has a 14 month old who's recently moved to just one nap.
Dr Laura (59:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I
Dr Fallon (1:00:22)
Laura says it was going really good for the first week with her daughter sleeping all night and waking between 6 to 7 .30 a and she was having one nap of around two hours duration. But then one morning she woke at 5 a and wouldn't go back to sleep and unfortunately it's become a cycle. So when she wakes early she tends to have her nap early and then it's such a long stretch to bedtime that she's often going to bed early at 6 p which of course then means that she's waking up early the next morning.
So Laura would like to know what to do.
Dr Laura (1:00:53)
yeah. Gosh, you poor thing. Yeah, it's really horrible having those early morning wakes. So she's moved to one nap. I would be thinking about whether you can reduce the duration of the nap a little bit, maybe bring it just under two hours, maybe an hour and a half, depending on how long her sleep cycles are. And just really doing your best over about a week.
to distract your toddler in the morning, just to try and get that nap as close to the middle of the day as you can. Think about, we talk about taking toddlers into nature, into company, into water, to distract them as much as possible. She's gonna be cranky because she's woken up really early, but we really, really need to help her circadian rhythm get a little bit later.
Dr Fallon (1:01:36)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (1:01:49)
It's slipping backwards at the moment. So she's waking up earlier every day. That's then having a knock on effect to the timing of the nap, which is then having a knock on effect to bedtime. So what we need to do is try and hold steady for about a week to help your baby fall into a later rhythm. And it might be that that first day you can't get her to nap until you can't get her any later than maybe 11.
Dr Fallon (1:01:53)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (1:02:18)
And then you just try and get as close to bedtime as possible. You might not be able to make it entirely. But the next day, then you just, you might then get that nap until quarter past 11 or half past 11. And over a week, you just try and shift things every day and know that eventually your toddler will get back into the rhythm that they were previously in.
Dr Fallon (1:02:33)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (1:02:42)
I would just caution, I'm just looking at how you said Laura, that wake up could be anywhere between six and 7 .30 in the morning. That's quite a wide range. So when we're trying to help toddlers kind of reset their body clock, really we want to be keeping wake up within about half an hour. So I'd be looking at maybe six, 6 .30 is your aim rather than having that really wide variation in the morning time.
Dr Fallon (1:03:01)
Mm.
Dr Laura (1:03:11)
Holding that wake -up time as steady as you can, then that will help the rest of the day fall into a more predictable schedule.
Dr Fallon (1:03:11)
Mmm.
Yeah, I think that's great advice, Laura. Wow, so many great questions spanning those first few years. I hope that every parent who's listened in has gotten something out of this episode, something useful you can try. If you're really struggling with your child's sleep or settling, it might be time to get more intense support, which is about 30 % of families find that they do need some support with sleep and settling in those first few years.
If you're one of those, we've got appointments available in the clinic in the next few weeks, which often doesn't happen, usually a couple of months wait. So we do have a few available. And of course there are the Sombelle programs as well, which just means you can get started straight away and start to get sleep on track. So thank you so much to our members who sent in questions. If you're a Sombelle member and you would like us to answer your question next week, do send it in to [email protected]
Dr Laura (1:03:50)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (1:04:12)
And thanks very much to all of our new members who've just recently joined us as well. I think that's a bit of a wrap for this week, Laura.
Dr Laura (1:04:20)
Yeah, thanks everyone. Bye bye.
