Dr Fallon (00:38)
Hello and welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things sleep and settling across the first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway, who I only just saw this weekend.
Dr Laura (00:53)
Yes, I know, hello! It's been really rare, isn't it? We actually saw each other in person just yesterday and that was the first time we'd, I think we worked out first time since Christmas that we'd seen each other.
Dr Fallon (00:56)
Hehehe.
Yeah. it was so good.
my goodness. Isn't that crazy? We work together every day. We're constantly nattering away in WhatsApp and we're on the phone all the time, but we're rarely in the same room. So yeah, it was so great to have a catch up. We did so much great planning for the next year, planning for Sombel and what we're doing next. And I just feel so energized by that. I'm so pumped for everything that's to come.
Dr Laura (01:16)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, same here. I'm really looking forward to it. The only downside has been that someone in your household was sick and then they have shared their sickness with both of us. So, yes, hopefully we both continue to just experience mild symptoms. But please do, listeners do excuse my slightly croaky voice.
Dr Fallon (01:41)
Mmm.
Yes.
Mm hmm. Well, we're going to be a bit nasal this week. I'm just so hoping that we're all okay in the clinic this week. It's always terrible, isn't it? When we're both sick and we have to reschedule people and then madly catch up. But yeah, hopefully we'll be fine.
Dr Laura (01:54)
Yes.
Yeah, it's matter of, yeah, we both don't want to be sick at the same time because sometimes that's what we're able to take on each other's clients. And if we're both sick, that would be a problem. But listen, people, hopefully we're going to be okay. So if you're listening to this and you've got an appointment with me or Fallon later this week, chances are it's all going to be fine and it will go ahead.
Dr Fallon (02:13)
Hmm.
Hehehehe
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of the things we die, like really sort of took a dive into over the weekend that and it's still just ringing in my head, you know, was we decided that we would have a look at what's going on on social media about baby sleep. I don't think we had quite braced ourselves for what we saw. my God, Laura.
Dr Laura (02:42)
my goodness.
No.
Yeah. my goodness. We had been, when we started Infant Sleep Australia and when we decided to create some Bell, we did it because there was so much misinformation and disinformation online. And also because we were working at the frontline of research and we knew it takes on average about 10 or 15 years for research findings to actually get into the general population. And we thought, right, we're going to, it's wild, isn't it?
Dr Fallon (03:04)
Mm.
And that's wild, isn't it? Like that's terrible.
Dr Laura (03:19)
it's so, and we thought, let's just bring the research findings direct to families and we can cut through a lot of the misinformation online. And then we've just been like, like madly, madly working away over the last couple of years, building the clinics and creating some bell. And we haven't really come up for air, have we? But we were talking about how we just noticed a real increase in distress in our clinics.
Dr Fallon (03:41)
No.
Dr Laura (03:48)
with families really, I do say to families, and it's very true in my clinic, that I get through boxes of tissues, honestly, boxes of tissues, because families come in and they burst out crying, and it's just been getting worse and worse and worse. And the emails, the tone of the emails that we're receiving from parents who are, should I join Sombel or shouldn't I? And we've just really noticed a change, hadn't we?
Dr Fallon (04:03)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes. and especially like we've had multiple emails from GPs saying, what am I, what do I tell parents? Like, what is the evidence on, you know, on sleep when there's all these like big conflicting opinions? So they're emailing us for guidance and we're getting messages on social media as well saying, did you see this wild video? Like a totally unhinged video.
Dr Laura (04:19)
Mm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (04:40)
So yeah, we sort of thought, okay, mission one in our weekend meetup was to have a look at what's going on in social media on the really popular baby sleep accounts. Cause we were like, well, you know, we always want to improve our social media. you know, what are the things that people are talking about? What should we be talking about? And my Lord, I think I'm still, I'm still in shock. There were things on there that were just dangerous, like so dangerous, dangerous to babies.
Dr Laura (04:54)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (05:10)
but so harmful for parent mental health. Like I'm just stunned. I don't know how our listeners have, you know, my youngest is seven. I have to think about that for a second. It's been a few years since I was like really into all the baby advice, social media channels. If, and it was a complete different world, even just those few years ago. If I had,
Dr Laura (05:13)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (05:39)
seen all that nonsense online about baby sleep, I think I would have absolutely lost my mind. I would never have coped with it. It's just, so do we dive into some of the things we saw that just horrified us?
Dr Laura (05:44)
Yeah. Yeah, likewise. No.
yes, yeah. And I should say that we're not going to name names. That's not Fallon and I are so non -confrontational that it's just, you know, we've both become very, very uncomfortable at the thought that we might get into a confrontation. So, but look, needless to say, some of the accounts we looked at have hundreds of thousands, if not millions of followers. And what was
Dr Fallon (05:59)
No.
Millions.
Dr Laura (06:22)
What I found really frightening, Fallon, was how often there's howling, there would be one or two howling pieces of misinformation embedded within what is on the whole relatively sensible advice. So, yeah.
Dr Fallon (06:40)
Yeah. Or very like, you're doing a great job, mama bear. You know, like seeming really, really lovely and comforting and nice. And then bang, horrific information. Like I have whiplash.
Dr Laura (06:44)
Yes!
Yeah.
Yes, yeah. So then it's really hard for parents, sleep deprived parents as well, because that's people who are struggling with sleep who will be following these accounts, to know, well, where does the caring, sensible, empathic advice end? And where does the howling misinformation begin? But I know, Fallon, that one of the ones that really struck a nerve with us was some advice that babies' rooms should be
25 degrees plus and they should be in sleeping bags that are three and a half tog. And that's just super dangerous. It is risking overheating your baby. And we know that overheating is a risk for SIDS. So when somebody is putting out that information on a lovely looking tile that says, rug your baby up warm,
Dr Fallon (07:31)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
We promised they'll sleep better. Like what? I mean, there's not even any research evidence that very hot babies sleep better, but we do know there is research evidence that very hot babies die. Like as horrible as that sounds, that's the reality. So that kind of advice just being pushed onto exhausted parents who might go, well, you know, they seem really hot already, but okay, one more layer.
Dr Laura (07:53)
It's actually very dangerous.
No.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:17)
my God, that makes me sick. It really makes me sick because there's nobody regulating what kind of misinformation is online. There's no one going through these posts and telling these people off or suspending their accounts.
Dr Laura (08:25)
No.
No, no, there isn't. And we also found that there were... We found that the...
Dr Fallon (08:32)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (08:43)
The common theme in a lot of these information pieces, in a lot of these accounts is that it's very normal for baby sleep to be poor, bad, fragmented. If you're a baby to wake a lot, all kinds of wording is used to describe baby sleep. And that's biologically normal and there's nothing that you should do about it or can do about it. And you just have to suck it up. You decided to become a mum in the first place.
and just go with it. And that is just really harmful advice because when, yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:15)
Mmm.
Well, yeah, and there's two, like, there really are two sort of camps, aren't there, of wildly different advice, and both have their share of experts. And I think that's what's really hard for parents is that you've got people who are highly qualified saying entirely opposite things. So in one camp, we have those people, like you say, Laura, who would say any amount of night waking is normal.
Dr Laura (09:34)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (09:50)
Don't try to do anything to improve sleep. You just have to write it out. You know, don't, it's more about changing parents' perception of sleep as a problem instead of addressing sleep problems, completely disregarding the fact that sleep disorders, diagnosable sleep disorders begin from around about six months of age. And then on the wildly opposite end, we have people who,
Dr Laura (10:01)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (10:15)
very much backed by science, but who would say the only way to improve baby sleep is to use an extinction method where you just say good night, leave the room and you don't go back until the next day or something along those lines, something closer to that. But yeah, both sides have experts who are very, very strongly, you know, pushing their points. But the problem sort of comes, doesn't it, where that side that says nothing's wrong, do nothing about it. There's a lot of guilt around that. So parents are thinking, okay.
Dr Laura (10:33)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (10:45)
maybe I'm the problem, I'm seeing this as a problem and I've just got to get used to it and they're not doing anything and that is going to mean that there will be parents of children who have sleep disorders who aren't getting treated for sleep disorders, which is pretty awful. But there are parents who look into those extinction approaches and cried out approaches who just think there's no way I can do that.
Dr Laura (10:58)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (11:10)
That's way too hard. I personally would have really struggled with an approach like that. Completely understand it. But both sides have experts saying this is the only way to do it. And that is kind of unhinged. And I think, you know, when we were thinking this weekend, what we are trying to do is be that sensible middle ground. Yes, we absolutely know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when babies...
Dr Laura (11:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (11:36)
can fall asleep with a bit less support from parents, they wake up far less often overnight. They call out for parents less often overnight. They're not waking up startled and freaked out thinking, where did mum go or where did dad go? They're just like, yep, I'm here and back to sleep within seconds. Much like most adults, we wake at night, we just go back to sleep. So our approach has worked towards helping parents establish more independent settling in their babies and toddlers, if that's what they want to do. If they don't wanna do it,
Dr Laura (12:03)
Yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (12:05)
off, no skin off my nose, I couldn't care less. But if that's something that you're aiming to do, we can help you with that. The difference is that we're not going to say we'll put them in their cot and walk away and come back in 12 hours. We're going to say, here are a million different ways that you can get to that goal. It doesn't have to be that you rip the bandaid off in one horrendous blow. It doesn't mean you have to leave the bandaid stuck on and never do a thing.
Dr Laura (12:12)
Yes.
No.
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (12:31)
You know, it might be that you slowly pull back the edges of that bandaid. You give your child a ton of support, lots of reassurance. So you're building their confidence and they're really happy to sleep, you know, in their cots or, or whatever. So anyway, I'm rabbiting on, but there are those two camps of thought. You're going to have experts on either side that are very, very strong in the strategies that they're using.
Dr Laura (12:41)
Yeah. Yes.
Dr Fallon (13:00)
to try and convince you that there's only one way to do things. And I suppose I just want parents to know that there's absolutely not and a sensible middle ground does exist. And that's what we do. And I don't see many other people doing a sensible middle ground to be honest. So hopefully as we grow, there'll be three camps of thought. And yeah, so we're underpinned by evidence, but we give parents options because of course you need options.
Dr Laura (13:03)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
No.
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And if your child is waking, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, ten times a night and has been doing so for weeks and months on end, it is very, very hard to function well. Ask anyone who hasn't got a baby how they would function and go about their lives if they were up.
10 times a night. They would look at you like you were mad. Like, well, that's ridiculous. I wouldn't be able to function. And of course, no, they wouldn't be able to function. And just because you're doing it because you have a baby, you're not suddenly turning into a superhuman able to function. And if you are fine and look, if you are functioning, brilliant, great, great for you. But you don't have to. And
Dr Fallon (13:58)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Mm. Mm.
Dr Laura (14:24)
you have to function, but you don't have to continue to wake up that frequently overnight. So what Sombelle enables you to do is look to see, well, what are the reasons why your baby might be waking up so many times overnight? And is it something to do with the amount of day sleep they're having, or is it something to do with the time that they're going to bed, or is it something to do with...
Dr Fallon (14:42)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (14:50)
an irregular wake up time in the morning, like super irregular, you know, up three hours difference in morning wake time, or is it something to do with how they're going to sleep and what's happening when they wake up overnight? And Sombel will help you work out what are the different variables that might be at play that it may be leading to such frequent wakeups? And then in which case can we try to address some of those issues to reduce the number of wakeups to an amount that is manageable?
Dr Fallon (14:54)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (15:20)
for you to be able to function as a well -rounded human in society and not feel guilty about it. Not feel guilty that you're doing something wrong by wanting to have better sleep for you and your family. And that you, yeah, it's not that it's not, you only do extinction. I mean, we never, we don't actually recommend that anyway. It's not one of our approaches that we have in Sombel and we don't recommend it in our clinic either.
Dr Fallon (15:28)
Yeah.
Yes.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (15:50)
But there's a number of things you can do to address that wake and those wakes overnight or the difficult settling or the partying for two or three hours in the night. And it's not that you either have to do this one thing that we know is very, very hard for parents to do, or it's nothing at all. Let's find a middle ground together as part of a community. Let's support each other. Let's not be.
Dr Fallon (16:12)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (16:15)
for doing this one wild thing over this end or one wild thing over this end. Let's find the one sensible approach. And one of the things that we're going to do, Fallon, after this crazy weekend of being shocked to our boots about the misinformation online is that in the future we will have some podcast episodes where we just do a little bit of an exploration of what the research evidence is.
so that parents can feel a little bit better informed when they're viewing this other misinformation online. Because it's all very well and good for us to say here from our, you don't want to seem like we're in an ivory tower, like we're the ones with the knowledge and we'll tell you what to believe. We will in upcoming episodes talk about what the research evidence is so that that will help you empower you to be able to cut through.
Dr Fallon (17:01)
Mm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (17:13)
some of that misinformation out there and so that you can feel confident in the approach that you decide to take with your baby or toddler sleep. If you want to address your baby or toddler sleep. And there's no pressure. We don't say, as you were saying Fallon, if you're very happy with what's happening with your baby's sleep, brilliant. But you might just find it useful to know what the evidence is. You don't have to do anything with it, but we would like you.
Dr Fallon (17:16)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (17:42)
to know what the real research evidence is.
Dr Fallon (17:43)
Hmm.
It would be great for parents to have the skills to start to try and look at some of the information a bit more critically, I think as well, because it's really easy to go, well, if they've got an impressive title or have a high qualification, what they're saying must be right. But what we kept noticing was people skewing what the data actually says. You know, we've got huge studies of.
Dr Laura (18:05)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (18:08)
thousands and thousands of children. It's not just a bunch of scientists sitting in a room going, what are we going to say that's the latest, you know, like, it's very, very data driven. There is a scientific method designed to reduce bias. So we've got studies of thousands of children that just shows exactly what happened for thousands of children. It's, you know, they're just documenting what has happened. And that allows scientists to be able to look at the data and go, okay, well, these are the variables we know are associated with.
Dr Laura (18:14)
Hehehehe.
Dr Fallon (18:37)
this, that or the other. Or there are studies like randomized controlled trials that test out different approaches and look at their effectiveness. And I think if we can bring in some of that, it would be great. So that parents know that there are, you know, there are people out there who will look for some tiny little obscure study that looked at, you know, 12 babies or 20 babies and had some finding that sounds alarming, yet no scientist has ever been able to find that in other sets of
Dr Laura (19:00)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (19:06)
you know, data sets for babies ever since, like it's not replicated. But people who want to really drive home their ideologies around baby sleep will just keep coming back to these really crappy studies that have long since been disproven. It's exactly what happens with anti -vaxxers. They often will pull up these really obscure, weird studies with a tiny sample size that earn really low scientific credibility.
Dr Laura (19:08)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (19:34)
And just completely ignore studies of thousands. And I think for vaccines, even in the millions now of studies showing like, this is a really safe thing. It's the same with baby sleep. We've got huge studies showing what's safe for babies. And to just completely ignore all of that is, well, it makes my blood boil. That's very questionable.
Dr Laura (19:42)
Mm -hmm.
Yes, that's our teeth on edge, doesn't it? Yeah. Now, in terms of what our listeners can do to help in this area, it would be wonderful if when you're listening to our podcast and you're enjoying the information that we give and learning from it and feeling perhaps a little bit calmer that we perhaps are the, you know, some people write to us and say we're a shining light in the midst of this polarised debate.
is to share our podcast with other people that you know who are interested or struggling with baby or toddler sleep. Follow us on social media, like and share our posts, rate and review, leave us Google reviews if you've found some bell to be helpful and you've found that you've been able to implement any changes that you want to make in your baby or toddler sleep. Thank you to all of those families that have already done so. But...
please do rate and review the podcast and the program, because that is one really wonderful way that we're going to help reach other families and cut through this real polarized field in which we're all living at the moment.
Dr Fallon (20:55)
Mmm.
Hmm.
And we've got a whole lot of video content and things that we're going to be doing on social media over the next year. That's going to really dig into the science, not in a boring way, in an engaging way, but providing references and really showing what the data shows. So follow our Instagram account. Sometimes listening to something on a podcast, it's very different to actually just seeing it with your eyes. So follow us. It's infant dot sleep dot Australia on Instagram. And yeah, follow it along.
Dr Laura (21:31)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (21:38)
when you see posts that you like, yeah, do share them because it helps to, you know, just slightly adjust that balance of what parents are seeing. Yeah, I think that's that's an awesome thing to do. We have so many questions this week, Laura. There was some very meaty ones. So how about if I dive in with Georgina?
Dr Laura (21:53)
Yes.
Yes, OK, off you go.
Dr Fallon (22:00)
Georgina has some questions about working on cot settling after international travel where her six month old baby mostly had naps in the carrier or pram. Georgina asks if she's showing tired signs but when put down in the cot is not falling asleep for a while, does it mean we need to stretch her out longer before her naps? If she goes into the carrier or the pram, she falls asleep quite quickly. She's on three naps per day and the last nap is just
Dr Laura (22:06)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (22:30)
30 minutes. So should we answer that one first?
Dr Laura (22:33)
Yeah, yeah. It does mean that if when you're popping her down, she's not going to sleep for quite a while, then she could probably manage to stay awake for a little bit longer. She's out with that very little baby phase now, Georgina. So it's okay for her to show a few tired signs before going down. And if you're really finding that this is continuing at around, you know, somewhere between six and seven months, it's very common for babies to...
drop down to just two naps. So if you're finding that once you start to stretch out the length of time before you pop your baby down for the first two naps and it's hard to fit that third nap in, then it's okay just to drop that third nap.
Dr Fallon (23:14)
Yeah, I like that answer. Georgina also asks about jet lag. She would like to know if hourly wake ups overnight are normal when jet lagged. Is it okay to just settle her any way they like during jet lag, including with the boob or co -sleeping? And how long will it take for her to adjust to the current time zone? You're a good one for answering this one. Laura, you've done it a lot of times with your own kids.
Dr Laura (23:35)
Yeah, I have. Yeah, look, we know that for adults as well, it generally takes five to seven days to recover from jet lag. Georgina, if you've started to work on cot settling and your baby had one way of going to sleep before she became jet lagged, then I'd be attempting to use a very similar approach, even when she's jet lagged so that you can...
just continue to show her that there's one consistent, predictable way of settling. But if everything, the wheels have fallen off or you just hadn't actually got onto cot settling before the jet lag hit, then I would just be saying, let's just get over the jet lag first. The priority may be just to simply help stretch those wake windows during the day, help her get to a predictable bedtime, help her get back to sleep as quickly as possible overnight in whatever way you need to.
Dr Fallon (24:19)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (24:33)
have that consistent wake up time in the morning, get her up in the sunlight or bright light, get her out in the middle of the day into the sun so that you can really take advantage of natural light. And after a few days, maybe after five days of being back in the new time zone, then get back on board with the cot settling.
Dr Fallon (24:52)
The only exception to that I would say is where Georgina mentions co -sleeping. So because your baby is six months old, so still quite small, I would absolutely avoid co -sleeping, especially when you're jet lagged, because you could have periods of very deep sleep when you're really tired that can make co -sleeping a whole lot riskier. So if you need to settle her with, you know, the boob or a lot of hands -on support to get to sleep, that's fine, but I'd actually keep her out of your bed. Yeah.
Dr Laura (25:09)
Mmm.
Mm, yeah. All right, should we go on to Crystal's question? So Crystal emailed to ask about her four month old. She's returning to work full time and her husband will be the primary carer. She describes that her daughter is usually rocked to sleep in her arms, but she refuses to fall asleep in dad's arms, instead wanting to play and interact.
Dr Fallon (25:23)
Good, all right.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (25:44)
gosh, I can see why that would be a struggle Crystal when you're looking at how dad's going to become the primary carer. So Crystal says her baby usually becomes overtired and cranky and eventually falls asleep in the carrier. She has a unique sleep need of 15 hours and takes four cat naps each day, but is showing signs that she's ready for just three naps each day.
She asked, do we have tips for how to help her daughter adjust to being settled by her dad before Crystal returns to work?
Dr Fallon (26:16)
We sure do. Yeah, look, I would say it's sort of like when babies can fall asleep really quickly in the pram or the carrier, but then in the cot, they take ages. The car, the carrier, they're warm, cozy, there's some movement and it's their strong, you know, sometimes it is a strong sleep association. And all of that can just help them to fall asleep much more quickly than the cot.
Dr Laura (26:17)
Heheheheh!
Dr Fallon (26:41)
So I would say, you know, this baby is used to falling asleep in mum's arms. As soon as they're in mum's arms, it's just like, yeah, I'm good for sleep. But with dad, it feels a bit different. It's just going to take a bit longer because dad's arms feel different to mum's arms and it's a little bit more stimulating. So I would say definitely keep going with the practice. It's absolutely possible for your baby to get used to falling asleep in someone else's arms. I would just move to...
Dr Laura (26:51)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (27:10)
the three naps and stretch out those awake windows. So what I'm thinking is that if that baby, despite still being rocked and held is taking ages to fall asleep, chances are that in mum's arms, they were able to fall asleep with fairly low sleep pressure, but in dad's arms, they're not. So I think stretching out the time spent awake is a really good idea. Moving to three naps per day and just persist, show your baby that if dad starts to settle, he finishes the settle.
Dr Laura (27:12)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (27:40)
Don't try not to chop and change. I mean, that's all very well for me to sit here and say, just do one thing. I know it's really hard. There might be times where it's too challenging, but maybe if dad's having a hard settle and it's not working, instead of Crystal then taking the baby to settle them, maybe it's putting the baby in the pram. So it's sort of showing that the person who starts to settle tends to finish it.
Dr Laura (27:58)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. I'd also just add that perhaps it would be helpful for, Crystal, for your husband to watch you settling your four month old, maybe on the baby monitor, if you're settling her in the, in her bedroom, so that your husband can just watch exactly how it is that you're doing it. If there's a particular song that you hum or a particular way that you shush, whilst she's in your arms, then,
if your husband can replicate that as much as possible, that's also going to help your baby learn that mum and dad settle in exactly the same way.
Dr Fallon (28:39)
Yeah, that's it. And, you know, it's one of those situations too, where probably for now with a big change and Christa going back to work, just keeping on rocking to sleep is a good way to keep some consistency when things are really changing. Once your baby's adapted to that, if you think, okay, we're ready to work on cot settling, pick an approach, both apply it very consistently and see how you go. So yeah, that's an option down the track when you're feeling ready.
Dr Laura (29:02)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:06)
Penny has emailed in about her granddaughter who is seven and a half months old. So Penny is doing the Sombel program so she can help out with her granddaughter, which is really, really lovely. So Penny's granddaughter has been teething recently. She can self -settle some of the time, but is also rocked to sleep. Penny describes that she has a 12 and a half hour sleep need, has two naps of up to two and a half hours duration.
Dr Laura (29:16)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (29:33)
She goes to bed at 8 p and wakes up at around 8 a She wakes two or three times overnight and sometimes has cranky nights where she seems more difficult and unsettled. I feel like there's a maths equation coming up, Laura. But what would you suggest? You're doing it in your head.
Dr Laura (29:46)
There is, yeah, and I'm doing it as you talk. I'm thinking, well, yeah, I am. I'm going two naps for two and a half hours. That's five hours during the day, which is a big chunk of that 12 and a half. two and a half hours total. Right. Okay. It's like, wow. Yeah, we definitely have to reduce those naps. Yeah. So look, if she is having two and a half hours daytime sleep, then that leaves about 10 hours overnight. And when she's going to bed at.
Dr Fallon (29:56)
no, it's two and a half hours total. Yeah. Total day sleep.
Hahaha!
Dr Laura (30:16)
eight and not waking up until eight, that's 12 hours. So that's two hours extra sleep overnight than she actually needs. So I would be, and that's probably contributing to those wakes overnight where she can be difficult to resettle. So I would be looking to establish a earlier wake up time. So it's closer to around about that.
Dr Fallon (30:19)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (30:42)
10 hours overnight that your baby or your granddaughter, sorry, is in bed. If you want a wake up that is a little bit later than 6 a then one of the things you could look at doing is reducing the duration of those naps. So then we, you know, perhaps you'd look at doing two hours total daytime sleep. So then you've got about 10 and a half hours overnight. So that might be an 8 p bedtime for a 630 wake up, for example.
Dr Fallon (31:11)
Mm. Yeah, yeah, I think it's, it's so important to think about those sleep needs and Penny, I'd suggest pulling up the daily, daily rhythm chart for a baby with a 13 hour sleep need. So going a bit over that 12 and a half hours, have a look at the schedules in there. There might be some good ideas of things to follow. sometimes if day naps are randomly a little bit longer than they usually are, or the sleeping is randomly a little bit longer than it usually is.
Dr Laura (31:12)
Mm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (31:38)
It just means it continues to kind of be this wakefulness at night time. Their, their sleep pressure is a little bit lower overnight and the waking and those cranky, tricky nights just continue. So just by tightening up that daily rhythm a little bit, you're really likely to find a big change, but it's got to take a week. So that's the other thing. Don't do it for one day and go, well, that was hopeless. It didn't work. You really need to stick to it for three or four days. Usually parents say they noticed a difference and then by a week it's become more of a pattern. yeah. So.
Dr Laura (31:55)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah. And I think the fact that Penny's granddaughter can sometimes settle herself, but other times needs to be rocked to sleep, shows that she's got the ability to self settle. And it may well be that on some days, the sleep pressure is not quite high enough because there's been a bit of variability in the length of the naps, for example, which means that on some nights, her sleep pressure isn't quite high enough. So she does need a little bit more support to go to sleep on those occasions.
Dr Fallon (32:08)
So keep that in mind.
Dr Laura (32:36)
So just by doing some tweaking of the daily rhythm, you might find that she starts to be able to settle herself in her cot more predictably from day to day.
Dr Fallon (32:36)
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. So.
Dr Laura (32:51)
Okay, should we go on to the next question which is from Helen. So Helen wrote in about her sixth month old who has a 13 hour sleep need and who self settles in his cot. She says he falls asleep at 7 .30 p and wakes at 7 a He wakes every four hours at night and won't resettle without a feed. He has three naps each day totaling around about two to two and a half hours.
Dr Fallon (32:55)
Yeah!
Dr Laura (33:21)
and his last nap is a power nap at six. Recently, he pushed his second nap quite late, so only had two day naps, but the nights were just as challenging. Helen is nervous to make the switch to two naps in case he starts to scream a lot at bedtime, which he used to do. She wonders if she should drop a nap, shorten the lunchtime nap, or if she should just focus on dropping the night feeds. He's only just darting solids.
Dr Fallon (33:51)
Yeah, it's a really good question. So again, thinking about the maths a little bit. So we've got two to two and a half hours of day sleep and an 11 and a half hour window overnight. So it's not quite adding up to that sort of 13 hour sleep need. So there's potentially some low sleep pressure coming in at night time for this child. So definitely again, Helen, have a look at the daily rhythm charts for a 13 hour sleep need baby.
Dr Laura (33:58)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (34:20)
Just to guide you, it'll give you some ideas about where you might tighten things up a little bit or change things. I think it can be really easy to be a little scarred by things that have happened in the past. So, you know, in the past, having that little power nap at the end of the day was helpful and at bedtimes went a little bit more easily. But at some point that little nap is just going to make the nights more difficult. I would say my advice is just to be
Dr Laura (34:44)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (34:50)
brave, to be brave, cut down to two naps instead of three, which might mean, well, it sort of depends if you aim for 11 hours overnight, maybe aiming for two hours total day sleep, just as a very rough guide. So I would definitely get the timing piece right before trying to drop night feeds, because if you're trying to drop night feeds and sleep pressure's a bit low, it's going to be extremely difficult.
Dr Laura (34:51)
Mm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (35:16)
And while you're getting the sleep pressure right, you can keep introducing solid foods because as we introduce more solid foods, they're much more likely to drop those night feeds. Or you might even get to a position where you're able to more intentionally try to drop night feeds if that's what your goal is. What have I missed Laura? Does that cover things?
Dr Laura (35:31)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Now I think it covers most things. Helen, your baby is six months old and is only just starting on solids. And we know that, you know, some babies do drop their night feeds themselves earlier, even before the introduction of solids. But it's very typical for babies to continue feeding overnight until their solids are more established and they're having three meals a day.
And some parents decide that they're going to continue to feed once or twice overnight until whenever they want. So it could be until your baby's 12 months old, for example, that you continue to feed overnight. So I wouldn't be too alarmed that you'll be, I mean, I wouldn't be alarmed rather that your baby is feeding every four hours overnight at the moment when he's only just started on solids. So that would be two feeds a night, I'm imagining. So one at bedtime.
then two overnight and then one when he wakes up in the morning. But as Fallon says, when you have worked on dropping that last power nap of the day, which is quite close to bedtime, he's more likely to have high sleep pressure at the start of the night, which might mean that he begins to sleep for longer stretches and only has that one feed overnight. As you work on increasing the solids during the day, he should cope much better.
in the night not waking up hungry. And he might find that he's just on the one feed and then may drop that himself when ready.
Dr Fallon (37:03)
Excellent. Alright we have Holly who wrote in about her 16 month old daughter. She can self settle, has one nap for around one and a half hours in the daytime and she sleeps through the night almost every night. Sounds really good. But Holly asks, she says we live in a two bedroom apartment and my partner has his older children who are 12 and 14 years old staying with us every second weekend.
Dr Laura (37:20)
Great.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (37:31)
She says, my 16 month old would sleep in her cot in the second bedroom normally, but when the older children stay over, we have to move her cot into our room as the three kids have different sleep schedules. When she's in our bedroom, she often wakes overnight and cries or screams or stands up in the cot wanting to be picked up and she wants to have a breastfeed. And then Holly says she allows her to co -sleep rather than trying to put up this big fight with her.
Dr Laura (37:31)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (37:59)
When she sleeps in the other room on her own, this doesn't usually happen. So Holly wants to know, do you think she wakes and wants comfort because she can see us in the room? And what would we advise that she does? Holly's also got another question, but maybe we'll address this one first, Laura.
Dr Laura (38:15)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, I would say that it's, it would, I'm fairly confident it's because she's in the room with you and there's a change every other weekend. So she may be feeling, getting more stimulation with her siblings coming to stay on those weekends. So perhaps she, it's really excitable. And when she can see you in the room, she
thinks, yeah, great, I'd love to have a cuddle with mum or dad in the night. I've had to share mum and dad during this the last couple of days, whilst my siblings are here and I'd like to do have some more connection with you overnight. She's also probably learnt that when she does come and sleep in the room with you, she does get to have that co sleeping and breastfeeding experience that she doesn't have when she's in her own room. So,
things you'd want to consider would be, first of all, if it's working and you don't want, you don't have to change it. So you could just decide that that's fine. Every other weekend she sleeps, she comes and sleeps in your bed with you one or two nights. Or you could say, let's think about,
what's motivating her to wake up. So of course it's the situation means that she has to come into the bedroom with you. And so she will be able to see you there. One option is that whether you think about putting some kind of screen across the cot so that she just can't see your bed from her cot, that might reduce the chance that she sees you and goes, I'd like to come into bed with mum and dad.
The other thing is to think about on those weekends where you have the older children staying to think about supercharging some of those interactions that you do have with your 16 month old during the day so that you ensure that her emotional and attentional cup is like full during the day so that she feels then that all of her connection needs have been met overnight and she isn't seeking that connection during the night when she knows that her older brother and sister aren't around.
and if you were really sure that you, you don't want to be breastfeeding her and or co -sleeping with her on those, weekends, then I would make a decision, you and your partner pick a weekend that that's no longer going to happen. and, make sure then that you, you could potentially say, well, I'm going to breastfeed her, but I'm not going to bring her into my bed. So you could breastfeed her and put her back into her cot. and just really make that a firm rule.
and just let your, the older children know that there may be a little bit of noise coming from your room as your baby gets used to that. Or you could decide to do both the no breastfeeding and just offer her a sip of water and no co -sleeping all at once. Normally, as we've discussed in the past, it takes a child maybe a couple of nights to understand that this isn't going to happen anymore.
So you may have one weekend of it being quite tricky and then you'll be out the other side. What do you think Fallon? Anything that I've missed?
Dr Fallon (41:47)
I think that's great advice. Only thing I would add is when you said use a screen near the cot, make sure it's well back from the cot. So it sort of relies on that approach relies on parents having quite a big bedroom. So if you can, sometimes it's just positioning the cot where they can't quite see where mom or dad is. And that can make a big difference, but just make sure it's yeah, well back from the cot. The other thing I was gonna say was why can't they be, she be in the room?
Dr Laura (41:59)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (42:16)
with the older kids, like it might be just about space and that's totally understandable. You might actually find if that bedroom is really nice and dark and often at 12 and 14 years old, kids are pretty happy with the dark room. She might just sleep perfectly fine in there. So if you haven't tested it out, I'd be inclined to give it a try. Your older children might even quite like it, but obviously it's different for every single family.
Dr Laura (42:30)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (42:37)
but I think there's some great advice you've given there, Laura. Holly also says that every Saturday she has her swimming lessons at 9 a and by the time she's showered and changed and put in the pram on the walk home she falls asleep at about 10 a without a doubt 99 % of the time. She's tried giving her a snack in the pram but she falls asleep anyway and this makes it really tricky for the usual nap she would take at lunchtime.
Dr Laura (42:38)
Yeah.
Hehehehe
Dr Fallon (43:02)
They normally aim for her to be awake at 2 .30 p after her nap so that she's awake until bedtime at 8 .30 p What do we suggest in situations like this?
Dr Laura (43:10)
Mm -hmm.
this is a curly one. So many of us take our children to swimming lessons on Saturdays. And even adults after swimming can be really quite exhausted. There's something about that type of exercise and maybe the chlorine or the smell of the water that makes us all a bit snoozy afterwards. It sounds like you've done everything that you can to try to keep her awake, even a snack isn't keeping her awake. So I would be thinking about letting her have
Dr Fallon (43:28)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (43:44)
that her main nap in the morning at that 10 a in the pram and then just giving her a little power nap in the afternoon for 15 or 20 minutes to get her through until bedtime, which you might even bring a little bit earlier on those nights, maybe to, you know, 8 p or 8 .15. What do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (44:00)
Hmm. Yeah, I think it's going to depend. Like every toddler is different. You might find it easier to have like a power nap in the pram and then another power nap kind of at 2pm. So it's just two short naps. Or if you know, if she has any nap at 10am, you've got no hope of having a nap for the rest of the day. Try the iPad. No, it sounds like some parents like what? But, but.
Dr Laura (44:13)
Mm -hmm.
Ha ha ha!
Dr Fallon (44:28)
Yeah, you've got older children. You know what it's like. You know, it could just be that like having an episode of Bluey in the iPad in the pram for, you know, five or 10 minutes just means that your daughter is like, this is really interesting. She stays away, gets home and then has a great nap and the day's perfect and everyone's happy. It's a good example of where sometimes a little dose of very high quality content, it's not going to break your toddler. I know lots of parents have lots of fears about screen time.
Dr Laura (44:30)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (44:56)
We have such high quality programming these days. So if that's going to make the whole day run more easily, then what a great use of screen time as a parenting tool. Yeah, so I think there's lots of advice in there, Holly. Let us know how you go. Laura, we also had Tara write in about her 11 week old baby who was born at 37 weeks. So we could potentially think of this baby as being maybe closer to eight weeks of age.
Dr Laura (45:03)
Mm -hmm.
No.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (45:22)
Tara says she's been tracking his sleep for nearly two weeks now. At the end of the first week, he was averaging about 11 and a half hours of sleep. But in the past week, he started to have some really big day sleeps and his averages climbed up to about 13 hours. He'd never really slept that much previously. So she wanted to know, should she go with the more recent higher average for sleep duration when she's thinking about how to set up a daily rhythm? She wonders what might've caused.
this jump in sleep. She's also wondering should she be thinking of him as being an 11 week old or more like an eight week old or does it not really matter?
Dr Laura (45:59)
Mm. Yeah. Well, congratulations, Tara. And I hope that that early arrival wasn't too much of a shock for you and that you're all doing well. I would be thinking of your baby as closer to eight weeks of age rather than 11 weeks. And you are really, really early days. So sleep is really variable in those first few months.
so, having only 11 and a half hours, that was, initially the end of the first week. So if he's now eight weeks old corrected, he would only have been seven weeks, maybe six and a half weeks when he was having 11 and a half hours. that's very, very low for a baby, that age. And I suspect that he was just getting used to being on the outside, being earth side.
And I would be assuming now that we'd be going off his 13 hour sleep need. When there's so little, I try not to suggest, try not to get hung up too much on the trying to hypothesize about what may have changed from one week to the next because sleep is changing so wildly across those first 12 weeks in particular.
Dr Fallon (47:02)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (47:22)
And it may be that there was just a period of adjustment for him. Do you have any thoughts Fallon about why it might have changed so much in those early weeks?
Dr Fallon (47:33)
No, I agree with you, Laura. There's so many different variables. It could have been any number of things. And I think try not to worry too much about at that young age, the exact total average sleep. Let's go with 13 hours, start to build out that daily rhythm. Does it seem like he's adjusting to it and doing well? Or does he seem, you know, like he's not tired enough to go to sleep? Or is he widely overtired? You know, be looking for those sorts of signs that it's not fitting him well and then make some adjustments from there.
He's still little, so you can have a bit of a rough idea for a schedule, work towards it and sort of see how things go. And yeah, I would be thinking of his sleep, yeah, a little bit more like an eight week old. I mean, they say from 37 weeks gestation, they're not premature, they're full term. But I think in those early weeks, it doesn't feel like that. They do feel particularly little. Yeah, so well done, Tara. It sounds like you're doing a really good job of things.
Dr Laura (48:05)
Mm.
No.
Dr Fallon (48:28)
And Laura, last question of the week, we've got, Joe, do you want to read out this one?
Dr Laura (48:30)
Yeah, so Joe's a new Sombelle member, but a long time listener to the podcast. thank you, Joe. Well done. Welcome to joining. So Joe's son is four months old and he's waking four to seven times each night. He has around a 13 and a half hour sleep need. He mostly feeds to sleep, but can settle in the carrier car seat or even in Joe's arms if sleep pressure is high enough.
Dr Fallon (48:40)
Yay! Welcome.
Dr Laura (48:59)
Jo is keen to use the very gradual approach called the slow fade approach and wonders if she should use a feed play sleep repeat pattern to keep feeds away from sleep time or should she keep feeding to sleep a little longer whilst introducing the new sleep associations or she wonders if she should just move to the quick fade approach and use a feed play sleep repeat pattern. What do you reckon for Alan?
Dr Fallon (49:23)
Gosh, it's a fantastic question. And I almost feel like I can't answer it for Joe, because it's like, I think this is one that really comes down to what feels manageable for you, Joe. Like if you think I want to keep feeding to sleep, introduce a few nice sleep associations that might be able to carry over to the cot. And then later on when I'm feeling ready, I'll move the baby to the cot. That would be perfectly fine. But if you...
Some parents really struggle with feeding to sleep. I know it's sort of painted as being this very magical, lovely thing. It wasn't for me. I didn't particularly love breastfeeding, if I'm entirely honest. Yeah, it wasn't my thing. I didn't enjoy it. And so for some parents, you just think, I just can't do this anymore. I don't want to be feeding to sleep. I really want to work on something different. So if that was your preference, it would be perfectly valid to move to something like just a gentle...
feed, play, sleep, repeat pattern. Obviously it's flexible. No one's saying you have to be super rigid with that. But you could aim to move the feeds away from sleep time and make that leap to just settling in the cot without the breastfeed. I think it's a case of really weighing up what feels like the most manageable thing for you. What are your key goals? There's no right or wrong about when you work on cot settling or how you do it.
Dr Laura (50:21)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (50:44)
You've got those two approaches to consider, maybe read through both of them and have a think about would I be able to stick to that for every settle or would that be too challenging and maybe go with a more gradual one if you feel like it would be too challenging. We know that being really consistent helps babies to adapt more quickly when we make changes to how we settle them. So I'd be thinking, you know, what do I feel I can stick to really consistently? And do I have the supports around me? I need to really keep going with this.
Dr Laura (50:48)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (51:14)
Yeah, what would you add to that Laura?
Dr Laura (51:16)
Yeah, I think that on the days that he is falling asleep in the carrier or in your arms, I would be essentially for whether you're feeding him to sleep or whether you're he's settling in the carrier or your arms, add in that patting and the humming so that you're just layering up those sleep associations whilst you're making up your mind what the next step is going to be.
Dr Fallon (51:35)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (51:43)
Of course, in a car seat, it's a bit harder to be, you can't be patting if you're driving, but you could be humming and shushing in the same way as you are when he's in your arms. And yeah, we know that sometimes in little babies, you do need to add in some extra feed sometimes, particularly if your nurse has suggested that you need to...
Dr Fallon (51:50)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (52:09)
increase the calories that your baby is having during the day. So sometimes it's feed, play, feed, little play or a book and then sleep. So when they're really small, try not to get too hung up on it only being the one feed during a wake window. Sometimes you simply have to give two feeds. And yeah, and I think otherwise, Val and that advice that you've given Joe is really sound. So let us know how you get on Joe.
Dr Fallon (52:35)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (52:38)
tell us which way you've decided to go.
Dr Fallon (52:38)
Yeah and I love that Jo mentions that with high enough sleep pressure he can fall asleep in her arms without the feed because she sort of knows already doesn't she that you know maybe I don't know if Jo already has but have a look at the daily rhythm charts for a baby with
you might have to go for the 14 hour chart and just allow a little bit less to meet that 13 and a half hour sleep need. But work on that daily rhythm a little bit. It might be that you can build up a bit more sleep pressure for each settle and then you find it's actually really easy just to have him go to sleep in your arms or in his cot. Yeah, gosh, I love these questions. They've been fantastic this week and I think that would be many parents listening in going, that's really interesting. I can take that advice on board too.
Dr Laura (52:59)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, I think so.
Dr Fallon (53:23)
so thank you so much for the questions. we absolutely, we love all of you and we love that you send us these emails, looking for advice. What we wanted to ask though is try to keep your emails brief. So some weeks we spend well over an hour trying to summarize the questions to be really brief so that they can fit a podcast format. so try to think about kind of.
keeping it under, you know, 200 to 250 words as a real maximum. If emails are really, really long, we will have to start emailing back and just saying, could you please summarize this just into something brief for us? If your email is really, really long, and you're giving us a big long backstory, it's a really good sign that a coaching call is the better fit because we just can't address something massive in the podcast. So be thinking when you email us.
Dr Laura (54:10)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (54:16)
state your child's age, what their sleep needs are, what the problem is and what the question is and really try and just keep it to dot points because then it means we can fit more questions in. We've had so many new members lately, I'm starting to think, gosh, we're gonna get really busy. The other thing to keep in mind is check the back catalog. So we, in 55 episodes, we have covered so many aspects of sleep, settling and crying during those first few years.
Dr Laura (54:26)
Mm -hmm.
Hey.
Dr Fallon (54:46)
our website for the podcast, if you go to the Sombelle website, you see there's a tab for the podcast has a search function and it is actually one of those really good search functions, not one of those terrible ones where you put in sleep and it says no results, even though every episode's been about sleep. So put something in there, like you're thinking, what do I do about my low sleep needs baby? Type in low sleep needs and you'll see every podcast that talked about that, every episode rather.
Dr Laura (54:58)
hahahaha
Dr Fallon (55:11)
it might be that we've already answered your question. So have a bit of a look through there and see if we've answered your question already. That would be just such a terrific, terrific help.
Dr Laura (55:14)
Hmm.
Yeah, particularly if you're emailing us on a Monday afternoon or a Tuesday, because we record these podcasts on a Monday morning, generally. So we will often, if we can, if we're not just absolutely under the pump in the clinic, we may be able to write back and say, just so you're not waiting, here's some things to consider, but we're not always able to do that. And if it is going to be a whole week that you...
Dr Fallon (55:27)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (55:48)
We'll have to wait for us to address your question in a podcast. It'd be a really good idea for you to do that search so that you can get an idea of what to do rather than waiting another seven days.
Dr Fallon (56:02)
Yeah, absolutely. And also even just within the Sombelle program, there is a search bar. So if you're thinking, I don't know if they touched on this in Sombelle, type it into the search bar and see what lessons address it. Because yeah, we don't want you waiting for too long and we don't want to have to give a really brief answer to what's a really complicated question where you obviously need more support than what we can provide in the podcast. So yeah, have a look at those options. It's a really, really good idea.
Dr Laura (56:21)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (56:29)
We want to welcome our new members. We've had so many new members over the past week, especially the parents of toddlers. And I think it's got a lot to do with, was it last week? Yeah, it was last week. I did the toddler webinar for the Raising Children Network, which is Australia wide, but honestly, we get people who sign up from all around the world and there were a lot who came along to that. It was absolutely the most brilliant webinar. I loved it. It's always so much fun.
Dr Laura (56:37)
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (56:58)
I don't know if that's up online yet, but when it is, I'll make sure we let everyone know. We'll probably let you know on social media. So again, another reason to follow along with us because that one hour webinar really went into a lot of the complexities of toddler sleep and settling. But yeah, very, very big welcome to new members. And like we talked about earlier, if you want to fight back against a lot of that misleading, harmful sleep advice that you've been seeing online,
Dr Laura (57:12)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (57:26)
do support us, follow the Instagram account. We're going to unpack so much of the sleep science on there. That's infant .sleep .australia. I'll put a link in the show notes as well. And just remember that liking our posts, sharing them, leaving a comment on our post, it really helps. That's how we're going to help to start to quieten, hopefully quieten some of the terrible advice. That terrible advice, it's always gonna hang around, but we just need to get our voice a little bit louder. So.
If you like what we do, then that's a great way to support us. And I think that's everything for the week, Laura.
Dr Laura (58:00)
Yeah, I think so. We've got an enormously long to -do list after our weekend away, so we're going to get going on that so that we can continue to provide the best, most up -to -date, evidence -backed advice to all of our Sombelle members and our Sombelle podcast listeners. So we best get going.
Dr Fallon (58:23)
Absolutely, thanks everyone, have a great week!
Dr Laura (58:25)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
