Dr Fallon (00:37)
Hello and welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a bit of a focus on sleep and settling and crying during those first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway.
Dr Laura (00:54)
Hi Fallon, how are you going?
Dr Fallon (00:55)
I'm good, how are you?
Dr Laura (00:57)
Yes, I'm all right, thank you, all ready for the start of the school holidays.
Dr Fallon (01:02)
Yeah, you know, I think on Friday when the kids clocked off, I clocked off. So this morning when I was getting up ready for work, I was like, this kind of sucks. I felt like I really deserved a couple of weeks off just like the kids, but no, that's all right. No.
Dr Laura (01:06)
I
Yeah
Yeah, not to be unfortunately. I've got some little kids, I can hear them falling out of bed through the door behind me, so hopefully they're under instructions that when they wake they're to go downstairs and get themselves some cereal. So yeah, hopefully we won't have anyone joining us.
Dr Fallon (01:30)
Hahahaha
Good luck with that. Yeah. Yup. No, that's okay. It's all right. It's probably about time we had some guests on the show.
Dr Laura (01:42)
Yeah, probably.
Dr Fallon (01:43)
so Laura, this week we were thinking about, I guess, most of the back of last week's episode where we started to really dive into some of the controversies around sleep during the first few years. we really started to think like, let's start to almost sort of myth bust a few things that we just see coming up over and over again. and especially things that confuse parents where they sort of hearing completely competing, advice. And one of the.
areas I see this happen all the time is when it comes to night waking. There's a lot of nitpicking around what is night waking and people will say, yeah, you know, there's these interventions that can reduce night waking. And then we get the naysayers jumping in and saying, you can't reduce night waking, you know, gosh, it's frustrating, isn't it? It's really frustrating.
Dr Laura (02:16)
Yes.
Yes. Yeah, it is. It's really frustrating. And then we add into that, that in the research literature, we talk about sleeping through the night or having long stretches of sleep. And in the research literature, we might be talking about that just being a very sleeping through the night is actually only a five hour window of time in some papers that we would consider sleeping through the night. But that doesn't actually mean that there wouldn't be any wakings in that time. It's about whether
Dr Fallon (02:36)
Mmm.
Yes!
Dr Laura (03:01)
a child needs support when they wake up in the night or not. So it can get really murky and of course there's no reason why parents should know all the ins and outs of the nuance. But I think what's happening is that some people are picking and choosing bits of that information and using it to support their ideologies and parents are just left reeling, not knowing what to believe.
Dr Fallon (03:06)
Yeah.
Yes.
Hmm.
It's so true, isn't it? So let's talk some facts. So what we know is that night waking is of course entirely normal. So that every single human being is going to wake multiple times per night. It might be, you know, five or six times, probably somewhere in that range every single night. Babies do it. Toddlers do it. Grandparents do it. Everybody does it. The only reason you wouldn't do that is if you were actually sedated and you are knocked out.
Dr Laura (03:30)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (03:56)
So we absolutely expect all humans will wake multiple times per night. That's entirely normal. When we talk about reducing night waking, essentially what we're talking about is, you know, not stopping them from waking, because we know we can't do that, but it's about reducing their dependence on needing a whole ton of support to get back to sleep. So if we think about your own sleep as an adult,
Dr Laura (04:18)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (04:21)
There are probably five or six times overnight when you wake and you just go back to sleep within a few seconds. Like your body does this sort of systems check. And we've talked about this before, haven't we, Laura? Where it's kind of going, am I too hot, too cold? Am I hungry? Do I have any pain? Is my sleep environment still the same? We can check all those things in a few seconds. And if our bodies think, yeah, this is all okay, we just go back to sleep again.
Dr Laura (04:29)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (04:51)
But you know, if you as an adult were waking up at night time and you were needing your partner to maybe pat you on the back for 20 minutes and when that doesn't work, they've got to get you out of bed and hold you and rock you. And if that doesn't work, they go and get you a cup of milk to drink. If you had to do that, you know, five or six times per night.
Dr Laura (05:06)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (05:14)
that would be a problem, I think for you and probably for your partner, they wouldn't be very impressed about that at all. so yeah, it's really normal to wake at night, but what can be abnormal or troublesome is if there has to be a lot, you know, it's taking a long time to get back to sleep again because you're needing a lot of support. and the same goes for babies and toddlers, but obviously
Dr Laura (05:16)
Yes, yeah, yeah, that would be.
No.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (05:42)
little tiny babies need to wake at night, they need to feed, they need nappy changes and that takes time to do. So their night wakes are going to be longer and more frequent. So we're absolutely not talking about tiny little babies. but certainly from, I would say from six months of age, really long night wakes that require a heap of support just to get back asleep. that is starting to go into that range of being a little bit, I hate using the word abnormal. What's the word I'm looking for? I suppose just
Dr Laura (05:46)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
It's just troublesome. Yeah, yeah. And what we find then is that if an older baby or toddler is waking a lot overnight and needing a lot of support to go back to sleep and taking a long time to go back to sleep, kind of 20 minutes plus to go back to sleep overnight, then that's really going to start to impact their ability to get those long stretches of sleep that we would like them to have. Because ideally what we want is them to
Dr Fallon (06:11)
Yes, it's more difficult.
Dr Laura (06:38)
Complete a sleep cycle, come up into light sleep, do their systems check. Am I okay? Am I hungry? Is my nappy wet? See that everything's just fine and go quite quickly into their next sleep cycle. And that, for that to be relatively seamless. And if what's happening is that they are coming up into light sleep, doing a systems check, going, hang on a second, something's changed since I went to sleep or I'm uncomfortable or I don't feel very well or whatever it is that their body is telling them.
and they then wake up and can't get back to sleep for a long period of time. That means that their nights become fragmented. And if they're having to get up in order to go to daycare or school or whatever's happening the next day, we can really find that it can impact their ability to get all of the sleep that they need. And that's when we want to look at, well, is there a way that we can reduce the number of those more problematic?
Dr Fallon (07:30)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (07:38)
wakings overnight so that we can get them back into the normal range of waking up of course because it's biologically normal but then transitioning into their next sleep cycle without needing a tonne of support to do so.
Dr Fallon (07:39)
Mmm.
Yeah, and I think it's all about building confidence. We don't want our older babies and toddlers to be waking up with a horrible fright, thinking, where did dad go? Where did mum go? You know, this isn't okay, and I need lots and lots of help to get back to sleep again. Ideally, we want them to come up into light sleep, do that systems check, and even if they do wake right up, for them to go, yeah, I feel good, I'm okay, I'm confident, I'm secure here.
Dr Laura (08:04)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (08:21)
And then they're really happily able to drift back off again. that is what we're aiming for. And of course all babies and toddlers get to that point, you know, at different times, some of them, I mean, there are babies who are really little, who just start sleeping long stretches and they never care less. You know, like they do the systems check and they're like, good enough. I'm back to sleep again. They're definitely the resilient sleepers. And then there's others that are really, really sensitive. And that's where we often do have to help parents.
Dr Laura (08:24)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:51)
set up a bit of a plan where they're giving lots of support to help their child build that confidence so that if they wake up, they're not freaking out, they're feeling okay, and then they can easily drift back off to sleep again. But this whole idea has almost been weaponized. So we see a lot online of people saying, you know, you can't reduce night waking. Anyone who's trying to reduce night waking is trying to teach their baby to just not call out and to not ask for help if they need it.
Dr Laura (08:59)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:20)
I hate, I hate even repeating what they say. It's so harmful and it's such horrible, nasty messaging. It's absolutely not what we're doing. I guarantee you if a baby is in pain or hunger, they're going to call out and they're not going to give up on calling out until their needs are met. So if you've heard that sort of harmful messaging around
Dr Laura (09:23)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (09:46)
You know, you can't reduce night waking. You can only teach a baby to just be quiet and not bother calling out. That's just not correct at all. Especially if you're being responsive, you've helped support them to build the skills and the confidence that they feel okay to wake up and get back to sleep again. Yeah, it's a very different thing.
Dr Laura (10:05)
yeah, absolutely. And if you're going through Sombelle there's the earlier chapters which help you determine whether the night wakings might be due to a physiological reason. Is there any gut irritation? Is there any skin irritation? Are they unwell? Are they teething? So of course, as a Sombelle member, you'd be ensuring that
your child doesn't tick any of those boxes and those things are contributing to night wakings. Then you'll also for older babies and toddlers be thinking about whether there's separation anxiety present and also whether there's any big changes happening in your child's life that means that they are seeking connection more overnight and how you can try to bolster the connection and the time that you have with your child during the day so that they feel like they're
attentional and emotional cups are nice and full so they can get through long stretches overnight without needing to seek that connection. And we also take you through how to work out how much sleep your baby needs to ensure, toddler needs to ensure that they're able to maintain their sleep overnight for long stretches of time because their sleep pressure is nice and high. And so there's lots of things that you can do as a Sombelle member to
help you and your partner if you have one, understand why the night wakings might be happening. And again, when I'm talking about night wakings, Fallon and of course, I'm talking about the ones that need intense support to get help your baby or toddler go back to sleep because of course, night wakings are normal. So it's only those that are problematic that we're talking about. And then...
Dr Fallon (11:38)
Yeah
Dr Laura (11:50)
once you've ticked all of those things off and you're sure that there's no physiological reason for the waking there isn't the separation anxiety or if you have identified there is separation anxiety then you can think about how you can support sleep in with those things present and if one of the reasons why your baby or toddler is waking frequently overnight and needing intense support
Dr Fallon (12:07)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (12:14)
because they're going to sleep in a certain way, they're coming up doing the systems check and they're no longer on the fit ball being bounced by dad and they're going, what on earth? Then you can pick a particular way to wean your baby off needing to be bounced on the ball to go to sleep. So then when they come up in the middle of the night into light sleep and do a systems check, they're not having that shock or that scare that you were talking about, Fallon, where they're like, what's going on?
Dr Fallon (12:43)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (12:43)
Previously was in dad's arms and now I'm in this cot by myself and I don't like it.
Dr Fallon (12:49)
That's it. And I love what you're saying there, Laura, because I think, you know, so often parents think the only way to stop these night wakings where they're needing me all the time is to just cry it out. Like parents just think I'm just going to have to put up with hours and hours of crying. It's going to be absolutely horrific. And so they just go, well, I'm just not going to do it then. I'll put up with how bad things are now and how challenging I'm finding the nights because I don't want to do.
Dr Laura (13:04)
Ugh.
Dr Fallon (13:18)
cry it out. And we have to stop thinking like that. It is not black and white. There is a big area of grey in the middle between doing nothing and cry it out. Like a huge area of grey. So I think a lot of parents, because they've seen all the other things online where people say it's not cry it out, they buy the program or do the thing and it is. It's just a different version of cry it out. We've worked really hard to think about
Dr Laura (13:23)
No.
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (13:46)
the psychology of sleep and how babies and toddlers learn to develop approaches that can move you towards that end goal of having them being able to resettle themselves overnight without needing a ton of support. But without feeling like you've got to rip the bandaid off because it's a hundred percent possible to support your child to build their confidence in resettling themselves without having to be harsh or, you know, insistent that they just do it straight off the bat. I mean,
Dr Laura (13:57)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:14)
We don't expect, we wouldn't throw an adult in the pool who can't swim and just say, well, come on, swim. Like, you know, we don't need to do that to babies either. So I think keep that in mind. And of course it is an entirely personal decision. So I like what you were saying, Laura. It's like for some parents, it's hugely problematic. It's destroying their mental health. The night waking this is. and these long night wakes, especially can be just so can feel very, very punishing.
Dr Laura (14:20)
Yeah, of course not. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (14:44)
For those parents, they really wanna do something about it and that's perfectly acceptable. Other parents, it won't bother them so much. Yeah, their child wakes a bit overnight, they're fine with it and that's perfectly fine. We're not going to sit here and say everybody needs to work towards independent settling because not everybody needs to. And I think that's the other thing that gets a bit misconstrued, particularly on social media is there are people who think that everyone's trying to convince them that they've got to.
Dr Laura (14:51)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (15:13)
sleep train, all the babies and you know you really don't look at the child in front of you and you'll know whether or not things need to change and as the parent you're in the driver's seat you can decide how you change things when you change things and what kind of advice you take on board and what advice you just chuck straight in the bin
Dr Laura (15:17)
No.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. And look, if you're struggling, which many parents, most humans who have very fragmented sleep for weeks and months on end will be struggling. And somehow becoming a parent, particularly a mother, you were meant to be able to just put that aside and put your normal human needs to one side and just cope with this relentless sleep deprivation.
Dr Fallon (15:45)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (16:01)
If you are finding that it's a real struggle, it's okay to do something about it. And if you're in a Facebook group, for example, and you read from a mum or a dad who is asking for advice because they are really struggling, it is not right for those people to be told that they just need to suck it up. And everyone has a different, what's that analogy about everyone has
Dr Fallon (16:22)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (16:29)
Everyone, you know, that everyone's in the same boat is now what some people have a boat that's got some holes in it. That's leaking, that is made of really flimsy wood and other people have boats that are yachts and they're fully enforced depending on their family of origin and any trauma they may have experienced in their past or things that are happening now. You never know what other people are going through. And I think that that toxic narrative online that
night wakings are normal and you're doing something wrong should you want to change things is just, it's flying in the face of research evidence, but it's also not being, it's not recognising that every parent is walking their own path and has different resources available to them and for their children. So,
Dr Fallon (17:21)
Yes.
Dr Laura (17:23)
If you are struggling, you're not doing anything wrong by wanting to change it. If you're not struggling, awesome. And you also, you don't have to change anything, but please don't tell other people that they should also not do anything simply because you yourself are able to cope. That doesn't mean other people can cope.
Dr Fallon (17:42)
Yes, I think that is golden advice, Laura. You know, it's like we could have one parent whose toddler wakes three times per night and they couldn't care less, they're fine. Maybe they've got a sister who can come around and help in the afternoon and they can get a nap in. Maybe they've got a big family supporting them. Maybe they've got really strong mental health. You know, there's all these variables that could be present that make three night wakings completely manageable and fine.
Dr Laura (17:48)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (18:10)
versus somebody who has really poor mental health, who maybe doesn't have any family nearby to support them or give them a hand, who might be under financial strain as well, could be under housing stress. There could be all these things going on that could make three night wakes just the absolute straw that breaks the camel's back. And that parent can very quickly end up even needing to be hospitalized because they're really not coping. So yeah, you can imagine that advice to, they're only young for a little while, you know.
Dr Laura (18:15)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (18:39)
Don't worry about it, it gets better. That's really dangerous advice for that second parent to hear who's a bit more vulnerable.
Dr Laura (18:42)
It's damaging. It's dangerous. Yeah, absolutely. And adding family violence, you know, I've done a lot of work in the family violence field and that you have parents who are scared to wake their partner or to have a baby waking their partner because of the danger that puts the whole family in. Then, you know, it just takes it next level. So it's everyone has their own problems that they are managing alongside.
Dr Fallon (19:02)
mmm
Dr Laura (19:12)
the sleep issues that they are facing with their baby or toddler. So let's all try and be a little bit more sympathetic to each other. And let's try and put away that the toxic narrative online that you mustn't do anything about those night wakings if they are causing a problem for you.
Dr Fallon (19:20)
Mm.
Yes, absolutely. All right, I think that's such a good discussion and I hope that'll make parents feel like they've got a little bit more resolve when they do go online and feel battered by all of this, you know, yeah, that toxic narrative. Now you've got a little bit of fuel to galvanize yourself against some of that negativity and just unfollow pages that seem, you know, to not really be helpful. I think just don't follow them. It's a really good solution.
Dr Laura (19:42)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (19:59)
we've got a heap of parent questions, so let's try and get through some of these. Let's start with Alice. So Alice started out by saying, that she loves the podcast and Ensemble has found it super incredibly helpful over the last few months. she's very grateful. So thanks for the lovely words, Alice.
Dr Laura (20:16)
No. Yeah, thank you.
Dr Fallon (20:19)
Alice writes, my daughter is just over five months old. She's always been very alert and active and on the lower end of sleep needs, averaging around 12 to 12 and a half hours for the past couple of months. She's become even more active in the last week and her sleep needs seem to have increased to just over 13 hours. She sleeps from about 7 .30 PM at night to six or 6 .30 AM in the morning with two feeds and has three naps a day, each between sort of 30 to 90 minutes.
And they go with the flow because when she's tried to stick to a schedule, it's made her really tired and grumpy. She self settles well with a quick cuddle and a pat bedtime and during the night she self settles again after her night feeds. But naps are increasingly challenging with more crying and more support required. So Alice asks, is it possible her sleep needs have increased as she has become more active in her awake time?
Her awake windows have also decreased and she can no longer make the awake time she was previously achieving. Hmm, what do you think Laura?
Dr Laura (21:23)
So Alice, I think that's wonderful that you're keeping on top of your baby's sleep. And it sounds like you're probably, you'd worked out what your baby's unique sleep needs were. You saw that there were some changes and so you've logged it again and you have seen that there's been a slight increase. So well done for doing that. That's one of the things we're always telling families if things start to go off the boil log the sleep again so that you can see what the unique sleep needs are.
Now, certainly can be the case that for some babies sleep needs do increase. And in the main they don't. And I would be wondering, it's actually only half an hour difference. So it may just be a little bit of a, you know, if it, perhaps if you logged to the sleep over a longer period of time, we might not see that, but hey, if it's gone up by half an hour, great. That means that your baby is in that small minority that do have an increase in sleep needs.
now the reason I'm also kind of going about that is simply because, what you're experiencing, Alice is a baby who seems to not be able to stay awake for quite as long during the day. but then at the same time, when you're trying to settle her a bit earlier for those naps, she's crying more and protesting more. So what I'm actually wondering is whether.
there may just be a developmental change where she's five months old now, she's wanting to be up and about and more active. She may be feeling a bit frustrated when she can't crawl. I'm assuming she's only five months old. She's very unlikely to be able to get herself around. And you may just be noticing developmental changes during those wake times where she's just starting to express herself in lots of different ways and experience different emotions as she becomes older and more.
like you're describing. If she's taking longer to go to sleep for those naps when you're trying to put her down after she's had a shorter time awake, then I think that her wake windows probably have not decreased, that they actually, she's probably taking, probably going to sleep at a similar time. I don't have all the exact times here, so I'm not entirely sure. But generally, if you're
you're trying to use a shorter wake window, you're putting her down and then finding the settling for those naps is getting harder, then I would be going back to using slightly longer wake windows. Again, what do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (23:58)
Mm. Yeah, I completely agree. The amount of time they spend awake generally doesn't decrease. So I'd be inclined to actually push her out a bit more. And maybe try a daily rhythm again, even though you feel it made her tired and grumpy often it does for the first few days or week or so and then they fall into a great pattern. Yes, there's a couple of things to think about there, Alice.
Dr Laura (24:16)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (24:22)
Laura Aller also asked, is it okay to separate or to put her three month old baby in a separate room? She's just feeling that maybe her and her baby would sleep a bit better if they had a little bit more space. What would you say?
Dr Laura (24:37)
Yeah, look, the red nose guidelines is to room share for the first six to 12 months, but many families do move their babies into separate rooms earlier than that. Keeping in mind, if you go onto the red nose website, there's a list of a range of risk factors that you need to consider to ensure that the separate sleep space, sleep environment is safe.
You know, families that do have babies are very noisy sleepers, for example, often find that once their baby is in a separate room, everyone sleeps a bit better, the baby's not being disturbed by them, they're not being disturbed by the baby. Ensure that the room is safe, as I said, ensure that you have a monitor so that you can hear your baby and respond to them when they wake overnight. Anything that you would add, Felon?
Dr Fallon (25:30)
No, no, I think that's all good.
Dr Laura (25:32)
Yeah. We also had an email from Elizabeth. So Elizabeth has a four month old with a sleep need of around 13 and a half hours. Her baby went from waking five to six times a night, but has recently reduced to three, just two or three wakes overnight, which is really great for a four month old. So well done, Elizabeth. I hope you're starting to feel a bit more like yourself now you're out of that newborn phase.
Elizabeth provides lots of information about her baby, but in the interest of fitting in everyone's questions today, we're going to jump straight to the crux of the problem. So Elizabeth describes how her daughter is having three naps a day of around 30 minutes each. And the final nap can be extended to about an hour and a half long, as long as it's a contact nap after that first 30 minutes and she's resettled on the breast.
Dr Fallon (26:24)
Hehehe
Dr Laura (26:25)
Elizabeth says that they have tried to do a power nap to help reach bedtime and her baby doesn't like to have a power nap. So they've also tried to move bedtime a bit earlier instead so that that wake window isn't too long before bed. But they've found that that hasn't worked either because their baby normally doesn't end up going to sleep until the usual bedtime anyway. So Elizabeth asks, is there a way
that she can structure the naps so that her baby is having longer naps earlier in the day and we can push the final nap of the day back. She says, should I be resettling her when she wakes after a short nap or should I just roll with what she wants to do? What do you think, Valen?
Dr Fallon (27:12)
Yeah, really good question. Look, definitely having the longest nap at the end of the day in general doesn't work well for babies. Often it means they're then harder to settle at bedtime and waking more overnight. But Elizabeth hasn't described that that's a problem. So I mean, if it's working okay, you could keep going with it. But if nights start to get tricky, that's definitely what I would address. You could try to do a resettle early in the day, but if she's waking up perfectly happy and ready to go after 30 minutes of sleep.
Dr Laura (27:28)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (27:42)
chances are you won't be able to resettle her, she's ready to go. My gut feeling would be to let her dictate what she wants to do for those naps. If she wants three cat naps, that's perfectly fine. If it's, you know, it might mean that that night waking even reduces further. So look, I don't think there's a clear right or wrong. I think...
Dr Laura (27:55)
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (28:07)
I'd be inclined to try out rolling with what she wants to do and just having the cat naps and do that for a week and see how it works out. You could keep tracking in the diary so you can look back on that week and get a sense if that works well for her or not. It might just be a little bit of experimenting to work out what is the best daily rhythm.
Dr Laura (28:10)
Mm.
Mm hmm. Yeah. And if she does have three cat naps, so you're not resettling her for that longer third nap, then of course you'd bring bedtime earlier because you've got an extra hour up your sleeve. Yeah. So yeah, see how you go, Elizabeth. It's still early days at four months old. She's doing really well on three naps and only waking two or three times overnight. So well done. Let us know how you get on.
Dr Fallon (28:33)
Mm. Yeah, yep.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Laura (28:51)
All right, so we also have an email from Alexandra. Alexandra writes, thank you. Gosh, I'm tripping up over my words. Thank you for some bell, a refuge amongst the sea of confusing and contradictory advice online. thank you. I've got a 16 week old baby girl with a 12 hour 45 minute sleep need. Since eight weeks old, she's been sleeping well at night with minimal wakeups, with eight to 10 hour stretches. That's amazing, Alexandra.
Dr Fallon (29:21)
Yes. Yeah, that's what I mean. Some babies are just ready for it really young and they just do it. So yeah, lucky.
Dr Laura (29:21)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. And they're not, there's nothing abnormal about that. So here's a child who's sleeping for long stretches overnight. She will be having wake ups as she cycles through those or transitions through those sleep cycles, but she's not needing intense support to get back to sleep. So these babies do exist.
Dr Fallon (29:27)
Hehehehe
Exactly.
Hehehe
Dr Laura (29:50)
So Alexandra says that her daughter's current bedtime is 8pm and wake up is approximately 6 .30. She has four naps totaling around two and a half hours with the last nap ending before five. For the last three weeks we have worked on the quick fade approach. We're no longer feeding to sleep but we haven't phased out the patting to sleep just yet. That's really great. Well done Alexandra.
Dr Fallon (30:13)
Mm.
Dr Laura (30:14)
For the past week, her baby has been consistently waking up 40 to 50 minutes after we put her down to sleep for the night. We're able to settle her quickly with patting in around five minutes, and she then usually sleeps through or has one feed overnight. Alexandra asks, what is the best way to fix or avoid this wake up? She says, should we tinker with the bedtime wake up times first?
Or would we be better to work on phasing out the padding before touching on the schedule? Or is there something else going on?
Dr Fallon (30:46)
Yeah, right. So when they're waking up pretty quickly after they first go to bed in the evening, usually it means like, I would say that sounds like the beginnings of a sleep pressure problem. Like it's not a problem right now, but often the first sign that something's developing is that they start to wake up one sleep cycle into the night. So, I mean, it's only five minutes of padding to resettle here. I don't think you need to panic and go and completely change everything you're doing at all.
Dr Laura (30:59)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (31:13)
I'd just be thinking about the two and a half hours total day sleep. Is there a nap that's getting a little bit too close to bedtime? Is there, you know, is the other afternoons a bit nap heavy? So lots of naps or longer naps in the afternoon, for example, that could be starting to impact the nights. So yeah, I mean, you could have a think about her mood. If she's going down at bedtime, really happy and seems quite alert still, maybe you'll just push her out a little bit longer before you put her down at bedtime.
Dr Laura (31:41)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (31:41)
yeah, I don't think there's a lot you need to change. I think you're working towards phasing out the padding. So yeah, just keep plugging away at that gradually reducing the padding to sleep. and just be, you know, on the lookout, if that, you know, false start, we often call them continues and starts to become more challenging to settle her. That's when I would think, okay, do we just drop, drop down the day, sleep just a little bit? Yeah.
Dr Laura (32:07)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think that sounds like good advice.
Dr Fallon (32:11)
Yeah, good. All right. And we've got Sam who has a little girl who's 19 months old, who previously slept through all night and could self settle. But Sam writes that for the last month, although her naps are still fine, the nights are rough. At the start of the night, she can sometimes fall asleep quite quickly if she's quite tired, or she can toss and turn before falling asleep only to wake five, 10, 15 minutes later.
Dr Laura (32:26)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (32:38)
Well, that's classic sleep pressure problem, isn't it? She can be really distressed when I try and walk out of the room at the beginning of the night and in the middle of the night. She can sometimes be awake for three hours in the night. my goodness. But then she will randomly sleep through. Almost all settling is done in the cot, other than a quick cuddle when she's really upset. She has separation anxiety from Sam and her dad works away for three weeks at a time.
Dr Laura (32:40)
Yeah, it is.
Oof.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (33:07)
Bedtime is about 7 .30 and wake up is between 6 .45 to 7 .30 a She has one nap for one and a half to two and a half hours. So what Sam's wondering is can sleep needs decline quite quickly and are the settling and overnight wakes a sleep pressure issue? Yes and yes. That's a hard start. What would you say Laura?
Dr Laura (33:26)
Yes, yeah. Well, we don't have a clear idea of what Sam's daughter's sleep needs were and what they are now. But yes, it can, sleep means can suddenly decline. There can be for some children, there's that gradual decline and others it's like bang off a cliff and then and then carry on just with a gentle decline again. Now,
Dr Fallon (33:52)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (33:54)
Getting to the crux of the issue, I would say, and you did mention it already, Fallon, I would say that there's a sleep pressure issue going on. That, yeah, there are.
Dr Fallon (34:03)
Yeah, there's a few signs there really, isn't there? The false starts, really long night wakes.
Dr Laura (34:10)
Yeah. So Sam, what I would be suggesting is looking at the detail that you've given us about the daily schedule is that there's up to an hour difference in the length of the day nap. So sometimes it might be an hour and a half. Sometimes it might be two and a half hours. And also wake up time. There's nearly an hour difference in the wake up time in the morning as well. So what I would be thinking about doing is having a look at what her sleep needs are at the moment.
Dr Fallon (34:15)
Hehehehe
Hmm.
Dr Laura (34:38)
And then picking a wake up time. And it may be that if she generally is always awake by 6 .45, I would maybe pick that as your wake up time and then pick the average of her day nap. So if she's more often than not having an hour and a half or two hours, and only sometimes having two and a half, I would just pick that.
average amount, an hour and a half or two, just to try and bring a bit of predictability from day to day. And then you'll likely find that her sleep pressure is hitting a more predictable level every evening when you're popping her to bed at bedtime. And then you'll start to see a change in that variability of whether she's doing those false starts or just sleeping for longer stretches fall away. So that would be my biggest piece of advice just to try and...
a stabilized bedtime and nap duration.
Dr Fallon (35:35)
Yeah, absolutely. I'd definitely keep a sleep diary. Look at that total sleep requirement that she's got and you could use the daily rhythm charts in Sombelle. There'll be examples in there that are very similar to what you're doing but with just a few little tweaks because at the moment every night sleep pressure is somewhere different. So when bedtime varies and the nap length varies it's going to impact sleep pressure that night and if you keep a shorter day nap you're probably going to say well it doesn't make any difference to the night.
Dr Laura (36:00)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (36:04)
it won't for that first night. You need to keep everything steady for a full week and then you'll know how that new daily rhythm impacts the night. Yeah, and you've recognized that she's got separation anxiety. There's lots of strategies in the toddler program that work really well with separation anxiety. So you've got lots of options to choose from there too. Excellent, well done, Sam.
Dr Laura (36:08)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (36:26)
We also have Vanessa who has a 14 month old with a sleep need of around 13 hours. She wants some general advice for minimizing sleep interruptions caused by illness. Vanessa says we've had a month of back -to -back illness starting with COVID and then gastro and then another viral illness that had her son in hospital overnight with a viral wheeze. So many families are going through the wringer with illness at the moment.
Dr Laura (36:40)
Mm -hmm.
my god.
Yeah, they are.
Dr Fallon (36:56)
And she says you do what you can in the moment, especially in hospital when you know, they didn't have access to a cot. But wants to know how do you get sleep back on track when they're seemingly constantly unwell? Her son is an early bird waking about 4 .30 to 5 .30 a She says, but that's a whole other thing. So she said it feels like there can be no respite.
Dr Laura (37:08)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (37:18)
They initially use family to help, but her son passed COVID and gastro onto other family members, which they're feeling very awful about. you poor thing. It's really hard when they're so unwell because so often that's when you need help the most, but you can't get it because you don't want to spread illnesses around. Okay, so what would we do? I would say if you have started a sleep plan recently and they become unwell, just stop the sleep plan and you're going to have to wait until...
Dr Laura (37:26)
Uhhh
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (37:46)
they are feeling better so that you've got the confidence to persist with whatever the changes are that you're making. If you've started to make a bit of headway that maybe you've been working on settling him in the cot and it was going really well with a bit of padding. When he becomes unwell, I would sleep in beside his cot if you're worried about him rather than getting him out of the cot and sleeping somewhere different or doing something different to settle him. Just stay beside him during the night so that you can give him as much padding and hands -on support as you need to.
because it's pretty easy to phase out patting and hands on support once he's feeling better again. I don't think there's going to ever be a really, you know, clear cut prescriptive like when they're sick do X, Y and Z. It's just really hard, especially this time of year. So it might be that, you know, aiming to be able to put him in a cot, say goodnight and walk out of the room is too much to aim for right now. I don't know this child's settling at all, but
Dr Laura (38:20)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (38:45)
you know, it's just an example. It might be that you adjust your goal and you're just going to go, okay, well all sleep will happen in the cot and I'll give them as much support as they need in their cot. So that could be a way that you adjust your goals around their sleep while they're unwell. And then when they're feeling better, they've had a lot of experience settling in the cot and yeah, you can start to phase out that extra hands -on support. Would you add anything to that, Laura?
Dr Laura (38:55)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. No, no, I don't think so. I just, my heart goes out to Vanessa and all the other parents who are going to be riding that awful winter roller coaster of back -to -back illnesses. It's, it isn't appropriate to introduce new settling approaches when your child is unwell. And it's also really important that when your child is unwell, you let them have more sleep because our bodies need more.
Dr Fallon (39:21)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (39:37)
sleep when we're unwell in order to fight the bugs and then recover. So I do wish we had a magic wand that we could wave and say, this is what you need to do. But as you're saying, Fallon, it's really just riding it out, thinking about not bringing your child into bed with you, you go to them so that if one, the one thing that stays constant is that they're always sleeping in their own environment.
Dr Fallon (39:47)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (40:07)
with you present, then that's the one constant thing and then we can wean you out of there once they're better. But essentially may the force be with you. It sucks. It really, really sucks. And we're both mums who have been through it and we still go through it now. I mean, our kids are older, but you know, they might be older, but when they're really unwell, they just want mum or dad and they need lots of love and support and comfort when they're sick.
Dr Fallon (40:15)
Mmm.
It does. we have.
Yes.
true. And there is a lesson in Sombelle in all the Sombelle programs on managing illness and teething and separation anxiety as well, which we've also touched on today. So make sure you go into that search function in Sombelle and always look for topics in there because there might be a lesson you've forgotten about that's going to help you with some of these things.
Dr Laura (40:47)
Mm.
Yeah. All right.
Dr Fallon (40:57)
Good, so we had Michaela also send us in an update. So she says, we moved our 16 month old to one nap a day from 11 .30 a to 1 .30 p but she didn't manage very well. She was very tired in the morning, grumpy for one and a half to two hours before her nap and by 8 p she was exhausted. We tried to keep her up a little longer but usually she was asleep by 8 .20 to 8 .30 p
The problem with this earlier bedtime is that it translated into waking up at five or 5 .30 a She says, we tried for about 11 days and yesterday decided to move her back to two naps. Our daughter was still getting about 11 hours a day on one nap, but it seems at this stage she still needs that time split across two naps to help her make it through to her bedtime and so that she can then sleep in until closer to 6 a
Dr Laura (41:30)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (41:51)
She says, unfortunately, in the time we tried, she wasn't able to sleep more than nine hours a night, even on one nap. There was the odd nine and a half hour night, but that was the exception. And they're hoping that in a few weeks time, she might be more ready. So Michaela wonders, do you think that she might just be on the late end of the spectrum of when toddlers transition to one nap? Well, it does sound like it. I mean, Michaela's given it a red hot go for 11 days. That's great persistence.
Dr Laura (42:15)
Yeah, yeah, yeah it is.
Dr Fallon (42:19)
I feel like Laura, if she was going to adapt, she would have in that 11 days. So waiting a few weeks is probably a great idea. Would you agree with that?
Dr Laura (42:26)
Yeah, I do agree. And I think that in the same way we cater for children who have low sleep needs and want to drop their naps early, we also have to think about the toddlers and the older babies who want to hold on to their naps for longer. So that with all of these things around sleep, there's the typical age at which these things happen. And then there's the children that it's going to happen earlier and children that it's going to happen later for.
Dr Fallon (42:42)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (42:55)
And Michaela, you've you tried really hard. I mean, 16 months certainly is very old to still be on two naps. But you are the best placed person to understand what's right for your baby, your toddler rather. You tried really hard for 11 days. If she was going to adapt, she would have adapted in that time.
Dr Fallon (42:55)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (43:17)
You've recognised it's very hard for your toddler to sleep longer than nine hours overnight. Some children we do on occasion see children that seem to have this nine, nine and a half hour block. That's all they can do overnight. And you're finding that your toddler can't manage just then on one nap a day. So I think you're doing the right thing, Michaela. You've given it a red hot go. We're just going to accept that.
Dr Fallon (43:30)
Hmm
Dr Laura (43:46)
your toddler is down that end that holds on to her two naps for longer. Give it a rest for a few weeks and then try again. And again, give it at least seven days.
Dr Fallon (44:02)
Yeah, excellent. Well, thank you to all the parents who have written in this week with these great questions. We noticed lots of parents were really great at putting it into dot points that made it really easy for us to summarize everything really neatly. And it's meant that we could fit more questions in this week. So that was fantastic. Just a couple of little messages before we go. We have a 30 % off sale at the moment, but it is going to end soon. So just letting you know, if you've been listening in thinking, yeah, I reckon I'm going to join Sombelle at some point.
It's a great time to do it before the price bumps back up again. Huge welcome to all the new members. We've had heaps of new members, especially parents of toddlers. So hopefully we'll get a bunch of great questions about toddlers coming in. So if you're a new member, do think about sending in a question if you've got one for us. And as always, we are trying to push back against some of the misinformation around sleep and kind of be that sensible middle ground, the sensible voice in this ocean of conflicting information.
Dr Laura (44:34)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (45:01)
If you like what we're doing, please give us a follow on Instagram. It's infant .sleep .australia. Leave us a review, like our posts, share our posts, leave a comment on our posts. It all really, really helps. And it helps, you know, the algorithms and all of that jazz, make sure that the sensible advice is getting out to more parents. And that's just a little thing you can do, yeah, to help other parents who might be feeling a bit overwhelmed with misinformation. So thank you everyone for listening in yet again.
We'll be back again next week.
Dr Laura (45:32)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
