Dr Fallon (00:37)
Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a particular focus on sleep and settling across the first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway. Laura, you've just had a week off, have I. We've had a bit of time with our kids, how was
Dr Laura (00:59)
Yeah, it was lovely. know, this weekend, we did a Christmas in July party, which just felt wonderful as a expat from England. It just felt really, really nice to have Christmas dinner with crackers or you call them bonbons, don't you, over here, with some fellow expats. And the children loved it. We played a game of bad Santa, which I've never played before.
Dr Fallon (01:05)
nice.
Yeah.
Yep.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (01:27)
which was hilarious. You have to, do you have you ever done it? You have to, everyone brings a gift, and you put it in a bag and then, each person takes a gift from the bag and they can swap it for, and somebody else's gift. If they want to, you can steal the gifts until you're happy with the one that you finally have. so it was, it was hilarious. There were a few, a few.
Dr Fallon (01:28)
No!
Dr Laura (01:56)
tantrums from some of the smaller children there. anyway, we always smoothed it out. So I really thoroughly enjoyed myself and felt very festive in this cold weather.
Dr Fallon (02:01)
I bet.
Yeah, it's definitely been cold enough. We're actually supposed to get maybe get a little bit of snow here where I live this week. It's going to be that cold. So yeah, I hope it does. I love snow. I'm like a little kid. It would probably mean nothing to you, Laura. You'd like, ugh, snow, how annoying. But I'm like, snow, yes. And I go running outdoors and my children are even a bit alarmed.
Dr Laura (02:16)
my goodness.
Yeah, I
Dr Fallon (02:33)
my reaction. Yeah, it must be.
Dr Laura (02:34)
It's the Scottish blood in you coming out. Did you have a nice time off, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (02:42)
Yeah, it was really good. It was just so nice to have some time with the kids and not have that, that pressure of, you know, just having to get up early and get out the door on time and rush here and rush there. they've been on school holidays and yeah, we just, we've just been learning new board games together actually, which is really fun. It's so good when your kids get old enough to actually learn a few rules and be able to play some board games together. So yeah, that was really fun.
Dr Laura (03:05)
Yes. Which ones did you learn?
Dr Fallon (03:10)
what is it called? It's this one about like natural disasters. it's called like something apocalypse. And like everyone, you get cards and you've got to rank it from like the worst disaster to the least worst, but they're all terrible. So it just creates a whole lot of funny conversations and yes, that was good fun. And game of life, which I think I'm the last person alive to, to play it for first time, but it was so fun. we were laughing and yeah, was, yeah, just, just good fun. So.
Dr Laura (03:16)
Aha.
Okay.
Yes! good.
Yeah. And I think a lot of our listeners who obviously have very young children, they have all of this to look forward to. there's, obviously you can play board games for toddler friendly ones when you have toddlers and preschoolers. But as your children get older, there's so much fun in store for you. So if you're feeling like you're having a really hard time at the moment listeners, it won't always be like this and you will have fun times ahead.
Dr Fallon (03:45)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah. Do you know what I really missed? I missed being able to do jigsaw puzzles. Like you cannot do a jigsaw puzzle if you've got a baby or a toddler, maybe a baby, if they're very sleepy, you know, they're to have your high sleep needs, baby. You might be able to get through a jigsaw, but with toddlers, there's just no hope, no hope of doing it. but now I can, like, it's so nice once they do get old enough to realize you just don't touch it. Don't touch the pieces. Now they'll actually come and help, which is really nice.
Dr Laura (04:20)
No.
Yes.
Yeah, you don't have the sticky little paws coming to take a handful.
Dr Fallon (04:40)
Yes, I saw a hilarious video the other day of someone who was trying to do a jigsaw puzzle and I think they'd logged into their home cameras maybe while they're at work and the Labrador is just sitting there just slowly eating pieces one by one. Anyway, I shouldn't say that too loudly. My dogs are hear and then my jigsaw days will be over. Anyway, well, it's awesome. We've both had a break and we're ready to dive back in.
Dr Laura (04:57)
yeah they get ideas yeah
Dr Fallon (05:06)
Laura, I wanted to start this week's episode with some really beautiful feedback we got from Olivia, who's also a health professional. And I just wanted to read it out because it's really lovely and I thought it really speaks to, you know, it's why we do what we're doing. So Olivia said, I have a deep appreciation for your expertise in constant reference to the scientific evidence and literature regarding baby sleep. Knowing you hold PhDs in such an important area of child development is so reassuring.
I've completed the Sombelle modules and honestly wish I'd found your program sooner as it has truly given me the confidence and empowerment to make decisions about my baby's sleep needs. Prior to finding you, I had a consultation with a sleep consultant that was recommended to me by several friends who provided an assessment of my daughter's sleep and gave me an aged based sleep schedule, including nap durations, awake windows and total day and night time sleep requirements.
She says, I appreciate that the support was well intended, however, only now have I realized that they really overestimated my baby's sleep needs, their ability to stay awake for longer durations. And they coached me to almost ignore my baby's tired signs, which led to many tears of both myself and my baby. After several weeks, I decided to question them on this, given that the improvements to overnight sleep and cot settling weren't what they wanted them to be.
And they advised that their baby was a rare case as most of their clients saw significant improvement compared to what Olivia had experienced. she was, Olivia also says, she realizes now that her daughter was really ready to drop a nap. So she says, for weeks, I drove myself insane, sticking to this schedule, thinking I was getting everything wrong no matter what I tried.
The Sombelle program and your podcast has enabled me to relax and understand that my baby's sleep needs are unique, that improvements may take more than two weeks and that my baby has a lower sleep need than what was prescribed to me by others. She says, thank you for the amazing work you do and for your very much appreciated advice.
Dr Laura (07:09)
thank you, Olivia. That's so lovely to hear. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, Olivia, you're right. The previous person that you engaged to help with your baby's sleep was really well -intentioned. Most people who come into this field are well -intentioned and they want to help babies and toddlers sleep better. And sometimes though, if they haven't got the training,
Dr Fallon (07:13)
is on it and really is.
Dr Laura (07:36)
It just means that they don't recognise things like low sleep needs or even some underlying medical conditions that need investigation through a family doctor or health nurse. So I'm delighted that you did end up finding us, Olivia, and that you have seen improvements in your baby's sleep. So that's great. And do let us know how you continue to get on.
Dr Fallon (08:04)
Yeah, absolutely. It's so lovely to get that feedback. And, you know, by way of that, if you are looking for support, we were just talking, weren't we, Laura, and looking at our calendars. At the moment, we have a bit of a rare opportunity for families in that it's not very much of a long wait time to come and see us in the clinic. if you are, we know a lot of parents will sit on the fence going, should I join Sombelle? Should I see them in the clinic? You know, really unsure what to do. Obviously both of those options
perfectly valid and they both have wonderful results. But just letting you know, if you're sitting on the fence, our clinic has availability. I think I've actually got some appointments left next week and certainly the week after. So if you just wanna work with us rather than doing Sombelle that is absolutely an option. And normally our wait list is a lot longer, but we've just had so many families joining Sombelle that it's taken a bit of the pressure off the clinic, which is what we always wanted to do. Cause we were having like this three or four month wait list that felt
Dr Laura (08:58)
Yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:02)
really overwhelming with lots of parents emailing us going, please see us sooner. And we were exhausted, off our feet. So the plan is working. We're getting more families into Somvale, which is great. And I would say the clinic appointments are really good if you think you've got either an unusual case or a baby with a really particularly difficult sleep problems or a toddler or preschooler who's had very persistent and severe sleep problems that can be well suited to the clinic.
Dr Laura (09:06)
Yeah. Yes.
Mm
Dr Fallon (09:31)
Or if you are a parent who knows that you are particularly sensitive or maybe you have your own history of, you know, maybe trauma or mental health difficulties, sometimes those parents find they just need to work face to face with us in the clinic. So we are there for that as well. So yeah, do keep that in mind. Now, Laura, we had a great question coming this week from Sam. And when I read it, I was like, thank you, Sam. I'm gonna make a whole episode about that.
Dr Laura (09:59)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (10:00)
So it was just it was really great timing. So Sam says I'm really enjoying and valuing the exploration you are doing of the evidence base for various things you come across when as a parent you're trying to address sleep concerns She says one of the things I came across a couple of years ago before I found you was that all of the women in my mum's group talked about the leaps and the Wonder Weeks
In terms of sleep, the theory was that if there was a big wonder week, you could expect crankiness, crying and additional overnight wakes. Sam says, I found this really unhelpful as it affirmed that I just had to cope with my small person waking six to eight times per night. Sam says, I'd be interested to know what impact developmental leaps and growth actually has on sleep. And she says, I'm not sure, is this something new parents are still coming across?
I think they are, they Laura?
Dr Laura (10:56)
they are. Yeah. And, you know, we hear from families so often that they have been putting their baby or toddlers poor sleep down to leaps, but they feel like their child is perpetually leaping because there's never any resolution. And they keep thinking, well, just another week, just another week and we're going to be out of it. And then, no, now we're bumping into the next leap.
Dr Fallon (11:17)
Yes.
Dr Laura (11:20)
And then the families are absolutely exhausted because they feel that they're constantly theorizing, hypothesizing what it is that's causing the current sleep problem and which leap they might be in. So I think it actually can impede parents' abilities to notice when there actually is a sleep problem that can be addressed.
Dr Fallon (11:33)
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely. I've had emails from parents saying, should I book an appointment now or wait until the next leap is over? Anyway, so let's dive into this a bit more. So leaps, you you would have, I think every parent would know what we're talking about, but it's this idea that there are 10 key times across the first year that babies kind of hit new developmental milestones or have leaps in their development that cause unsettled behavior and disrupted.
Dr Laura (11:51)
Yes!
Dr Fallon (12:14)
sleep. And I think that the reason why this idea has stuck around so persistently is that as a parent who has a baby that's upset or not sleeping well, it can feel very reassuring when someone says, don't worry, that's just a leap. Like they're going to get past it and they'll be okay. Yeah, exactly. And it also takes the pressure off parents who instead of then going, I'm doing something wrong. They're like, it's the baby's problem. They're just having a leap. You know, it's not, not me.
Dr Laura (12:29)
Yes, it will end.
Dr Fallon (12:41)
So I think that there's that element to it as well. But when we look at the science, it's really, and I encourage parents go and have a Google, what is the science behind leaps? And you'll be really, it's a very interesting story actually. So what we know is that the scientific paper behind leaps was from a couple of people back in the very early 90s who looked at 15 babies, which,
If you know anything about science, you'll know that that's not a very big sample size. So you really shouldn't be looking at 15 babies to draw huge conclusions about what every baby in the world should or shouldn't be doing. If you want to be able to do, you know, make big claims, you would need thousands of babies and for multiple people in different countries to replicate that finding in babies from that country. So only 15 babies were used to identify these 10 leaps.
And there has never been a study that even has been able to replicate those findings. And one, it was actually one of these researchers, students who tried to replicate their study in a sample of 60 something babies. So tried to of replicate it in a bigger sample size to provide a bit more evidence for the idea of leaps. And they found no evidence for leaps. And the original authors ended up in a bit of hot water.
Dr Laura (13:42)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (14:04)
when they tried to stop that paper from being published. So it's a very interesting story, go and have a read about it. It is wild what some people will do if they think there's some money to be made. And those original authors knew that they could come up with all sorts of books and apps and all the rest that they could sell to parents and make a lot of money from. So of course they didn't want any research to be published that actually discredited their theory. But despite that,
It persists. If an idea is attractive to people, they'll keep buying it. It's a shame that there isn't more out there. mean, in looking online earlier today, I was glad to see that there are a lot of articles from people talking about how you can go and just totally disregard that information. But I think from what we see in clinic, it's still very much out there.
Dr Laura (14:34)
It does persist, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, it is. And I think that it's a useful idea for people to understand that with when we're conducting research in the scientific community, when we discover a new finding, good scientific practice is then to publish that and you very clearly state how you conducted the experiment or the study.
So that other scientists can come in after and repeat the experiment perhaps on a slightly different samples in a different country to see, well, that was found once and N equals one study as in the one study there might've been, there'll be more participants than that, but in this case, it was just 15. Somebody else comes along and says, I'm going to see if I can do it just to determine whether that is, was just a one -off coincidence or whether
Dr Fallon (15:57)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (15:57)
actually that we can find it again. And if we find it again, then another group will come along and say, okay, we're going to try it in this scenario and can we find it? And they may or may not find it. But what happens is that over time, the group of scientists who are studying this particular field will start to build up a bank of information in support of or not in support of.
particular finding. And then what ordinarily happens is then there's some a big what's called a systematic review or a meta analysis, where some researchers come together and say, okay, we're to take all of this, all of these studies that have happened, and we're going to pull all the results. And then we're going to do a big analysis on it and see, is the weight of evidence in favour of or not this particular finding. So the research that Fallon and I will be referring
Dr Fallon (16:49)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (16:55)
is as much as possible based on the reviews and the meta -analyses, or if there hasn't yet been a review or a meta -analysis, it's just making sure that there's enough studies that have been conducted to replicate a finding. And then we can go, well, look, we are pretty confident that this is a real finding and that we can use this to inform our clinical practice. And we will then share that
Sombelle members, for instance. And so what's upsetting to us as scientists when something like this, these leaps are published is that that hasn't happened. There was one study that found this. It wasn't replicated and no one has ever been able to replicate it and yet it still hangs around because it is filling a vacuum. It's filling a need. Parents are struggling.
Dr Fallon (17:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And it gives them that reassurance. So it just keeps perpetuating. And I think that's the thing, isn't it? That a lot of parents, and I know we'll get the comments on social media when we post about this. but a lot of parents will say nonsense. My baby always had leaps and it's like, yeah, I believe you, but it's every baby is going to have ups and downs. You know what mean? Like they all have ups and downs. So
I can guarantee you if someone says, okay, this week there's going to be a leap. You'll be able to find one instance of your baby being crabby that week and go, that was it. Do you know what I mean? So it's sort of like, you know, it validates it. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. so yeah, don't come at me on social media because last week without, you know, trying to talk about how there's no science behind wake windows. people on TikTok had a lot to say about that. They were like, this is nonsense.
Dr Laura (18:22)
Yes. Confirmation bias.
Dr Fallon (18:41)
I used wake windows at work for me and I feel like saying, and I don't bother because he can be bothered. But it's like, yeah, that's one baby. And of course there's going to be some babies who it works for. Anyway. yeah, it's, I suppose overall what I would say is this, your baby is going to have periods of time. Even the very best sleepers will have a week or two of really crappy sleep. Sometimes it does coincide with when they've learned how to sit themselves
Dr Laura (18:52)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (19:08)
because they get in the cot and they think, I don't want to go to sleep, so I'm going to sit up instead. So there will be these little bumpy patches along the way, but they're not time locked. There have been studies tracking the sleep of thousands and thousands and thousands of babies where they actually chart what happens to infant sleep across the first year or two. And there's no one consistent pattern where all babies, you know, would be seeing a little blip in the chart at every one of those leaps and there's nothing there. So.
I guess the point we wanted to make in the podcast today is just not to worry about it. There's no point in being anxious about something that might happen. you know, it's certainly not a guarantee that your baby is, you know, going to have their sleep falter pieces at these set times. that's just not how it works. So I hope that's reassuring for parents. Yeah. All right.
Dr Laura (19:57)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (20:01)
Shall we dive into some of the other parent questions? Because we had so many this week, didn't we, Laura? The inbox has been pinging.
Dr Laura (20:06)
Yeah, we had heaps. Yes. So let's kick off with Fiona's question. So Fiona has a 13 week old baby who sleeps in their bassinet all night from 7pm until around five or six, waking only once or twice. She used to go down easily for naps in her bassinet, but now wakes within 10 minutes. She doesn't scream or cry. She just kicks her legs and talks to herself.
Fiona has listened to our podcast episode about avoiding overtiredness in babies less than 12 weeks. So has been very careful to get her baby down for naps on time to avoid overtiredness. Fiona says she hasn't been able to find a pattern to her sleep and wake times. Her daughter does some contact naps in order to avoid overtiredness and Fiona loves doing these. Fiona would like advice on setting up a daily rhythm for her daughter to ensure her fabulous sleep stays on
going forwards.
Dr Fallon (21:04)
Oh, it's a great question and well done Fiona, cause you're right. That is really good sleep for a 13 week old. And I love it when parents are feeling really proactive and really wanting to make sure sleep stays on track. It's such a good idea. So what I think when I hear that a baby, you know, is sleeping in their bassinet all night and doing quite well with that, but in the daytime doesn't seem to want to go into the bassinet or wakes up very quickly.
not the bassinet is not an unfamiliar place. We wouldn't expect them to be kind of, you know, feeling cross that they're being put there or waking up after 10 minutes thinking, what am I doing here? You know, it's a familiar place to them. I would say it's more to do with they're just not being the sleep pressure for it because your baby absolutely can sleep really well in their bassinet, but for naps, they're not. So often what can happen is parents think, well, they're having these tiny kind of almost micro naps in their bassinet.
Dr Laura (21:51)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (22:01)
So I'll hold them for a contact nap instead to help them get more sleep. And at the moment, that's probably not a problem because the nights are great, but the risk would just be that over the next few weeks, your baby's going to get a bit more day sleep than they need with those contact naps because contact naps are so comforting. They can often manage a little bit more dosing. That might then start to mean sleep pressure gets lower at nighttime. So my thinking Laura would be to really look for a collection of tired signs, not one or two, but
you know, look for your baby getting really cranky, grizzly, nothing's making them happy and then put them down in the bassinet and keep working on some more bassinet settles for naps. If you're wanting to really protect sleep going forward, that's probably your safest bet to do that.
Dr Laura (22:37)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think those are good tips. She's coming out of the very little baby phase. And yeah, as she heads towards that around four month mark where babies can start to be a bit more aware about what's going on around them, you might find that they develop a really strong preference for contact naps. And look, you said that you enjoy them. that's
You can continue to do the contact maps for as long as you want. Just be, maybe think about making sure that she's not having too much daytime sleep. So it does start to impact the nighttime sleep, like Fallon has just said. And yeah, enjoy those snuggles Fiona. You're doing a great
Dr Fallon (23:34)
Yeah absolutely I agree. We also have Nikki. Nikki's baby is eight months old and has a fairly low sleep need just shy of 11 hours per 24 hours. Nikki says she's been trying to find a good daily rhythm for her son prior to beginning cot settling but feels stuck because he's so tired during the day.
So Nikki describes a daily rhythm that fits his sleep needs, but she also says that he's struggling to adapt to this rhythm. And I'm not sure how long Nikki's been trying that daily rhythm for, but she says he's still waking for one or two hours overnight. So he's definitely having some biphasic or split nights. Nikki wonders if she should try something else or should she jump into cot settling regardless, or should she just book in for a crutching call?
Dr Laura (24:13)
Mmm.
Nikki, yeah, that sounds hard when you're up for one or two hours each night. I agree that that's a low sleep need for an eight month old. We certainly do see it. I guess I have some questions about whether your baby was also tired before you started trying to use a new daily rhythm.
And because that will give us a bit of an indication about whether that is your baby actually does have an 11 hour sleep need or perhaps whether their sleep need might actually be a little bit higher than 11 hours. If your baby was already tired and a bit cranky during the day, which maybe is why you have started Sombell and there hasn't actually been a change, then that estimate
it's likely to be correct. But if you have found that you have been using a new rhythm for more than a week, let's say, and the tiredness has increased, then I would be thinking, maybe actually, we need to look at making some changes. But those wakes that are quite long overnight do tend to suggest a lower sleep pressure in the night.
as Fallon says, a biphasic night, your baby is needing to be awake or is awake in the night waiting for their sleep pressure to increase, before they can go back to sleep. Having said that, I'm just reading again, whether it doesn't sound like you've started to do cot settling. So, it may be
if your baby only goes to sleep, either being bounced on a football or being fed to sleep, then it may be that they're waking up in the night really very unhappy to find themselves in the cot and not in your arms and then need a lot of support to get back to sleep. So I think if you're confident with the timing,
with the daily rhythm, then I think just jump straight in, choose a cot settling approach that suits you and suits your baby and get started on that. What do you think, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (26:40)
Yeah, I agree. think some parents will try to wait until the daily rhythm is really, really instilled and yeah, they might try to wait, wait a week or two. Um, and then they keep thinking, but nights aren't great and my baby's cranky and maybe I need to keep working on the daily rhythm before I start the cot settling. But actually I would say work, you know, work on that 11 or so hour daily rhythm.
for three days and then just work on cot settling because after three days even if the daily rhythm is not perfect and your baby's still a bit cranky sleep pressure should be a lot higher than it was and you'll have an easier time of things when you move to cot settling because it's always going to be that combination of having higher sleep pressure and a baby who's got some ability to settle in their cot that's when sleep comes together and gets better we really have to work on them in combination so i completely understand nicky's hesitation but i would say
As long as you've got a few days under your belt of working towards that rhythm, start to work on the cot settling, but keep going with that daily rhythm as well. After a week, you should have a baby who's settling pretty well, kind of depending on what approach you take, of course. But then if you're finding that actually we've been doing that rhythm for a week or more, and my baby is now self settling in their cot and they're still really cranky, then you can start to gradually add a little bit more sleep back into the schedule. And you can see if they can manage it.
but Nikki, I totally get it. If you're absolutely confused, book a coaching call. we're, I'm going to open up some more times this week, actually, cause there there's been a really high demand for coaching calls. and sometimes I think if you're just exhausted and really unsure, it really helps to just have, either me or Laura just go, right, this is what you're going to do. And then you, you got that confidence. So, and that goes to anyone who's listening in, if you need one, do reach out.
Dr Laura (28:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
All right, so the next question we have is from Lauren. Lauren says, my son is 12 months old and is sleeping well again after a recent sickness. He's all recovered and we've had a few great nights, which have been wonderful. Tonight we put him down to bed in his cot almost two hours ago. Also, Lauren sent this in the evening. And after 45 minutes, he let out a few cries, but resettled himself within 30 seconds.
And he's done this about four times within the last hour. We haven't needed to tend to him. We've checked on him and he's fast asleep. So he hasn't actually needed us. So it's not an issue for us at all. And we don't feel like we need to fix it, but we're just wondering why. He doesn't normally do this. Occasionally he will do it in the morning somewhere between five and 7 a .m. But mostly he doesn't. So Lauren asks, is this a sleep pressure thing?
where maybe he's had a small amount of too much sleep, maybe 10 to 15 minutes too much sleep, rather than a large amount of too much sleep during the day, I think Lauren means. When he has sleep pressure problems months ago, he'd cry like this, but we would need to go in and settle him. Or Lauren says, is it possible he's uncomfortable and we need to check him for some kind of discomfort? Or is he starting to have nightmares?
She's heard that some babies do cry out in their sleep, but this isn't a regular pattern for her baby, unless he does it more often and we sleep through it. Lauren, I can hear all of the thoughts and this is what it's like as parents. We're constantly thinking, it this, is it this, is it this? What about that? Yeah.
Dr Fallon (30:13)
Yes, why is this suddenly happening? I totally get it too. Some babies are really noisy in their sleep. Typically at the start of the night we expect them to be in the deeper stages of sleep which means they tend to be quieter. So it could be a sign that maybe sleep needs have dropped a little bit if he's you know maybe he's spending a bit more time in light of sleep earlier in the night which is why he's making that noise. This is just one night though so I would say don't panic.
But assuming that that has stuck around and he's kept doing it I mean, it's not necessarily a problem very unlikely to be nightmares again because he's in deep sleep rather than the type of sleep where we tend to be dreaming So I yeah, I overall I would say I just wouldn't be too worried about it And also if there was pain or discomfort he would wake up. I think we underestimate up We sort of go the grizzling a bit more than making some noise
Is it pain? mean, if I'm in pain, I'm going to tell someone, I'm going to complain very loudly about it until I get some pain relief. Babies are the same. So I wouldn't go in and disturb him. I'd just do exactly what you've been doing and just keep an eye on it. Does it stick around? Are other aspects of his sleep starting to worsen? Yeah. So I hope, I hope that answer helps. Would you add anything to that, Laura?
Dr Laura (31:13)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, no, I think everything you said there is is spot on Fallon. Lauren, it sounds like things are going really well. Let's just wait it out. You're not having to go in to do anything. He seems to be fast asleep. I suspect he's just being a little bit noisy. And and it will pass.
Dr Fallon (31:51)
Yeah, then we have Becky who Becky says she has a seven month old son. She says we've previously done space soothing at night, which worked well for him. So space soothing isn't what we call any of our approaches. So I'm assuming that Becky might have done a different program or had some advice on space soothing from somewhere else.
She says so he has a space soothing at night, which has worked well However, he has always had contact naps during the day and we've never been able to put him down for his naps She wonders would it work to continue as we have at night But use one of the sombell techniques to try and get him to settle in his cot during the day Hmm
Dr Laura (32:33)
I would suggest that since you had success with the space soothing approach at night, that there would be every sign that you could use that same approach during the day. It's an approach that he is used to. And you know that it has worked well and that he can settle himself to sleep and resettle multiple times overnight.
Dr Fallon (32:48)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:00)
And he probably just has a preference for those lovely contact naps during the day. So I would be thinking, if you do want to stop doing the contact naps during the day, and again, there's no pressure to do so if you're enjoying them, but if you would like to stop them, which is probably why you were writing to us, to yeah, absolutely make a decision that from today, like for the next couple of weeks, you're just going to work on cot settling for his
day naps. And you could either use the approach you've used before because, and as Fallon says, that's not one of ours, but it has worked for you. So you could use that, or you could read through our approaches and choose which of ours is closest to the one that you previously used. And then, you know, try to use that for the day naps for maybe half an hour max. If he doesn't go to sleep in that time, then think about using the pram or the car.
Dr Fallon (33:30)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (33:59)
for that nap and then try again next time. Since you're trying to wean him off the contact naps, just be wary of trying to settle him using one of our approaches for 30 minutes and then reverting to a contact nap because what he might then learn is, okay, this is just some funny thing that mum or dad makes me do for half an hour before they eventually let me nap on them. Do you have anything that you would add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (34:22)
Mmm.
Yeah, I would just, you know, a space soothing approach. I mean, people call different approaches, all sorts of things. Sometimes it does mean that parents are putting their baby down.
leaving the room for you know 10, 15, 20 minutes even. So I'm just thinking in the daytime when sleep pressure is lower, using something like the supported accelerated approach could be a lot more effective if you are using an approach where you're leaving for a really long time. Then using something like supported accelerated just means you give lots of frequent opportunities to show him exactly what you're going to do at nap time.
And that frequency can tap into his ability to learn. So if all of a sudden he's been putting this cot in the daytime and you're leaving for five, 10, 15 minutes or something like that, he's not, he's going to be lying there thinking, this isn't how we normally do naps. What on earth, what's going on? You know, it's a long time for him thinking, what, what, are we doing here? Whereas if you
You don't have to stay in the room either. You might still come and go from the room if he prefers to have his own space. But if you're doing that every couple of minutes in the supported accelerated approach, it's quite frequent that you would do it. You're giving him multiple learning opportunities to realize that they really just stick to this. They are just doing this one thing over and over. So yeah, that could be the benefit of using one of our approaches. Our approaches are really designed to tap into their ability to learn.
Dr Laura (35:46)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (35:52)
And the other thing I would just say is he's self settling overnight and overnight it's dark. So make sure his room is really, really dark. I think that makes a huge difference because your baby knows when it's pitch black, I go to sleep in my cot and that's fine. So if you can replicate that during the day, you've got a much higher chance of him just going, yep, all the cues are here. I'm used to it being dark. I'm in my cot and he'll know what to do. So good luck, Becky.
Dr Laura (36:13)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. And Becky, actually the only final thing I would add is just to double check that your baby is tired enough during the day when you are popping him down into his cot. It may be that like one of the previous client questions that we just answered, that he's having, he's able to have a lovely little snuggle on you as a contact
But if you try to pop him down in his cot when his sleep pressure isn't quite high enough, he's not quite ready to go to sleep during the day, and he's less likely to respond to whatever settling approach you use, either the one you used before or our supported accelerated approach that allows for much more frequent check -ins with your little one.
Dr Fallon (37:03)
Hmm. Yeah.
All right, we've got a few more questions and they're quite meaty ones. So let's try and race through these ones. First up, we've got Stephanie, who has a two and a half month old baby and a toddler. She's used some bowel to help move her baby from co -sleeping to sleeping in their bassinet, which is fantastic. Stephanie says her baby's sleep is very erratic with varying nap lengths and very inconsistent night waking. And her total sleep duration varies a lot day to day by up to three hours.
Dr Laura (37:22)
Well done.
Hmm. okay.
Dr Fallon (37:35)
Stephanie wants to know what sort of daily rhythm to use. She wants a daily rhythm that is achievable and is unsure what to aim for since her total sleep duration varies a lot. And Stephanie also asks about the quick fade approach. She says her daughter arches her back and squirms. So it's hard to stay hands on with the patting and she cries so much she doubts that she can hear the humming. She wonders if she should pat the mattress instead.
And she also wonders if it's okay that her daughter falls asleep during the cuddle part of that approach. What do you think, Laura?
Dr Laura (38:06)
Yeah, so Stephanie, I would say that it's been really important to work on getting your baby's daily rhythm right. As a starting point, the fact that there's so much fluctuation from day to day, excuse me, really suggests that it's going to be super important to take the average for your baby. So even though some days she might be having, let's say 15 hours and other days she might be having 12
really you're on a bit of a seesaw where she's having a lot of sleep and then not so much while she's trying to get to that average. So, don't focus on, trying to help her sleep for the high amounts, really taking the average is very important. tot up the, what she gets, every day for seven days, tot up the total divide that by seven. That will give you the average amount.
and be aiming for that amount of sleep across the 24 hour period. Then I would be thinking about with the quick fade approach, very important that you don't let your baby fall asleep in your arms during this cuddle. The aim of the approach is for her to be going to sleep in the bassinet. So if you're finding she's falling asleep quite quickly when you pick her up for a cuddle,
You might just be able to carry on patting her all the way off to sleep if she's that tired that she's falling asleep as soon as you pick her up. Or otherwise just think about just picking her up for a shorter time than it's stated in the approach. So it might be that you just cuddle her for 30 seconds, for example, before popping her back down, just so that she's going into the bassinet awake and goes off to sleep in the bassinet. Anything that you would add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (39:54)
Yeah, yeah, I'll just add to Pat the Mattress. If that does work better for you, that's a perfectly valid option as well. But it just sounds like once the daily rhythm is in a bit of a pattern, so use those daily rhythm charts to help form that pattern. Then when you go to work on the cot settling, you should find it much easier to use that quick fade approach. It's always going to be about working on the two in combination.
And with that much variability, it might be that there's times of low sleep pressure when you're trying that quick fade approach and that could make it really tricky. But yeah, good job, Stephanie. You're off to a really good start. Emily wrote in as well. She says she's in the middle of collecting a new sleep diary for her 13 month old as he started to have some more night wakings and more regular 5 a .m. wakeups.
I love that Emily has recognized things are going a bit wobbly and she's measuring his sleep needs. So well done, Emily. It's very, very smart. She says, I'm expecting I'll have to cap his day sleep a little, which is okay. But one thing I keep wondering about is his bedtime. It's currently 7 .30 PM and has been for about six months. I could shift it to 8 PM and
Dr Laura (40:46)
Yes, yeah.
Dr Fallon (41:01)
could well help with the early mornings, but I've realized I'm a bit scared that his bedtime, if it becomes 8 p .m. at the age of 13 months, that he might not ever go to bed earlier than that again. And then she talks about how she knows some primary school aged kids that go to bed at sort of 7 .30 or 7 p .m. And yeah, she's just a bit worried and hoping we can reassure her that it's not necessarily the case. She would like to know how bedtime's typically.
change as they move from toddlers to preschoolers and so on. What would you say Laura?
Dr Laura (41:32)
Mm -hmm.
Um, Emily, I would say, um, just let's think about the here and now. I think it can be really tempting to be looking down the barrel of a gun and thinking, ah, what does this mean in the future when they start school? Oh my God. Look, he's only 13 months old. He's just entering toddlerhood. Um, we'll, um, and he's still having day naps. Um, so it may be that bedtime simply has to be eight o 'clock.
Dr Fallon (41:41)
Mmm.
Yeah
Yeah.
Dr Laura (42:04)
whilst he's having day naps. But one of the things that will change as he gets older is his need for naps will decrease. He'll be having less daytime sleep, less frequent ones and then shorter duration. And then you will, you may find that then bedtime can come a little bit earlier. If your child has low sleep needs, it's just out of your hands. And so if they...
Dr Fallon (42:29)
Mm -hmm.
Dr Laura (42:31)
If he does end up only having, say a 10 hour sleep need by the time he starts school, then it will simply have to be an 8pm bedtime for a 6am wake up or something similar to that. There really isn't a great deal we can do about it. You were about to jump in there, Fallon.
Dr Fallon (42:42)
yeah.
Well, I was just going to say that it's so easy to worry about the future, but if you do end up with a primary school aged children who goes to bed at 8pm and sleeps beautifully until 6am and they're perfectly happy and well rested all day, then it will be worth it. Do you know what I mean? Like it's, and it would be better than 7pm and having them wake up at 5am. Trust me. so look, you know, even if that was to happen is long, just keep thinking about how you're going to cater to their unique sleep needs, no matter what they are.
Dr Laura (43:06)
Yes.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (43:20)
And that really is the best way to think about it because if you cater into their unique sleep needs, you're to have the happiest possible person, little person on your hands. And that's going to make it all easier to manage. But I think it's a great, great question to raise Emily because I think a lot of parents do worry about the future. But for now, I think don't worry too much. So often when they drop that day nap bedtime comes that little bit earlier and that's quite likely to happen.
Dr Laura (43:28)
Yeah.
Mm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah. All right. We've next heard from Caitlin. So Caitlin has emailed about her 16 week old daughter who recently went from falling asleep easily in her cot to needing to be fed to sleep after a bout of sickness. Oh, I'm sorry, Caitlin, that you had that experience when your baby is so little. Caitlin is finding this really challenging as she also has an active toddler.
And my guess would be that the toddler has brought something home, a little germ home for the little baby sister. So Caitlin has been using the quick fade approach for the last two days to try to wean her daughter off feeding to sleep. And she asked three questions. So the first question is with the quick fade approach during the cuddle, my baby either falls asleep
Dr Fallon (44:15)
Yes.
Dr Laura (44:38)
straight to sleep in my arms all remains agitated and crying. So Caitlin asks is it important to stick to the exact time for the cuddle or do I alter it based on how my baby is responding? Do you want to answer that one first Val and then we'll go on to the next ones.
Dr Fallon (44:52)
Mmm.
Yeah, so I would say stick to the exact timing for the cuddle because sometimes babies realize if I just keep crying I will never get put back in that cot and that's going to be a really tricky settle. But what I'd be thinking is if your baby is very quick to fall asleep in your arms when you pick them up then they I would keep patting. So if you you might have done five minutes of patting
and they might be due for a cuddle. But if you're finding you pick them up and they're instantly asleep in your arms, then I would just opt to keep patting because they're pretty close to sleep. I would just keep patting sometimes picking them up for the cuddle just interrupts them from falling off to sleep. So it might even be that yeah, you just don't don't do the pickup. Just keep patting. You're right there with them. They can hear you. They can see you. They're okay. Yeah.
Dr Laura (45:27)
Mm.
Yeah, and that really then feeds into her next question. So Caitlin asks, if my baby calms down during the patting so that I delay picking her up, but she then gets upset, should I pick her up straight away from when she gets upset or should when she calmed down start the clock again?
Dr Fallon (46:05)
it's a million dollar question. I would say don't start the clock again if she then starts to calm. And on the one hand, some parents would say, no, I'm going to pick them up straight away. But I would be just thinking, you know, sometimes we pick them up straight away and it can just exacerbate crying. So I'd almost be thinking, you know, if you're right on that sort of five minute mark, they've been quite calm and then they start to cry. Just pause a moment.
I've just be listening for maybe 30 seconds or a minute and just see what they do because babies don't like they're often they crying undulates. So it might be that your baby's going to cry really hard for 30 seconds and then calm right down and go to sleep. But if you'd pick them up, they wouldn't have done that. So I always think just kind of listen to the cry, maybe just pause a moment. And if it's not resolving, yeah, then I'll do the pick
Dr Laura (46:39)
Mmm.
Mmm.
And when you say pause a moment, you're thinking pause a moment for yourself to not pausing the patting. Yeah. So just put like, as in pause your like mentally and go, I'm just going to pause and carry on listening whilst patting, not pausing the patting, just to see if, yeah, they will just have that peak and then come down again. Yeah. I think that's really good advice, Fallon.
Dr Fallon (47:00)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Laura (47:21)
And her final question is, she says, I'm trying my best to get my baby down exactly the right time, not over or under tired. But inevitably when toddler juggling, there are times when she's tired and irritable by the time I get her down. This means that she's not going into the cot calm. So Caitlin says, is it preferable for me to try to rock her for a while to calm her first, or just pop her down in the cot?
even though she'll be instantly upset.
Dr Fallon (47:52)
Mmm, it's really hard when you're juggling a toddler. So with your baby, I would say forget about
Dr Laura (47:55)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (47:59)
Overtired well not forget about it, but just don't be so worried about it because your baby's now got a circadian rhythm It's working. Well, they're building sleep pressure the longer they're awake It's just what happens when you've got a toddler. Sometimes the baby just has to wait before they can be settled for their sleep In an ideal world. Yeah, sure hold them until they're calm, but you've got a toddler So it's not always possible. So it's totally fine to put her down in the cot. Give you back a rest as
Dr Laura (48:20)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (48:26)
and start your settling approach. Even if she is really cranky and you don't have time to calm her down, that's fine. You've also got to protect your toddler and make sure they're not off, you know, climbing the kitchen shelves to reach the medicine box or something. So I think you can only, you can only do your best. But yeah, it's great if they calm, if they're not, it's totally fine. You're still there with them, giving them lots of support and that's okay.
Dr Laura (48:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, you're doing a good job, Caitlin. It is a really tricky place when you have a little baby and a toddler. So just cut yourself some slack. Know that you are loving that little baby and you're loving your toddler and you're having lots of wonderful interactions with them during the day. So if you have to put your baby down while she's crying, then so be it. It's not going to undo all that other wonderful
stuff that you were doing with her during the
Dr Fallon (49:22)
Yeah 100 percent.
Dr Laura (49:25)
Okay, and the final question is from Sam. So Sam has sent us an update on her toddler who's now 20 months old. She says that her sleep has gotten much better with shorter day sleep and she usually goes to sleep readily in her cot with either Sam doing the sitting in approach or having to do nothing at all. However, she wakes every night at around midnight, give or take an hour either side and has a 745 bedtime.
And when she does wake up overnight, she requires lots more support to resettle. So Sam wonders if her toddler has separation anxiety. And she's wondering when her 20 month old wakes up in the night, should she go straight to her to stop the separation anxiety getting worse? Or should she wait a little bit to see if she can settle herself?
Dr Fallon (50:20)
Hmm. So. That's all right. Well, it's hard to say she's got separation anxiety without sort of asking some questions around how this toddler is coping when separating from her mother at other times of the day. But even if there is separation anxiety. When your baby wakes up at night and toddler wakes up at night and cries, they haven't just separated from you like
Dr Laura (50:22)
I feel like I have flung all of the questions at you Fallon, but go ahead.
Dr Fallon (50:49)
So it's the separation that they're fearful of. It's not necessarily being alone. So I would say just wait, like your child, your toddler can self settle. Just wait a couple of minutes. If you can only manage two or three minutes, that's perfectly fine. But I would say, hold your horses, wait and listen. So often they've just had all that deep sleep. They wake up, they kind of have a big grizzle or a bit of a cry. And then within a couple of minutes they're back to sleep because they know how to self settle. They know how to do it. so I would say don't rush in.
And instead, since you're sometimes in the room when she falls asleep at the start of the night, I would use something like the parental fading approach in the toddler program. And I'm pretty sure it's in the approaches for toddlers who are in beds. So if yours is in a cot, you can still use it though. But go and search for the parental fading approach. That can be a really great way of building their confidence, falling asleep alone at bedtime, still with lots of support, but they're just kind of building up a bit of confidence.
doing it and if that is part of the problem then when she wakes at night and finds you're not there she's just gonna think yeah well maybe mum's you know popped out for a moment she's gonna feel okay about that and she'll know how to get herself back to sleep
Dr Laura (51:57)
Yeah, I think that's great advice. And I think within that you have answered Sam's next question, where she was asking whether that time of the overnight wake indicates anything in particular, since it seems to be quite commonly around midnight. And I think that Falon, what you described is that she's coming out of deep sleep. So in the first half of the night, that's when your toddler will be having more of the deeper sleep. And then in the second half of night tends to
Dr Fallon (52:10)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (52:27)
being like not going into those deeper phases of sleep. And in that deep sleep, sleep pressure can really be relieved quite a lot. So I suspect that is what's happening and why it's around about midnight. Would you have anything else to add about that, Fallon? And she did have a final question where she just wonders whether any of the wakes overnight might be a night terror.
Dr Fallon (52:44)
No, no, I think you're spot on, Laura. Yeah.
Dr Laura (52:56)
And she asks because sometimes she describes that when her toddler does wake up, nothing consoles her, even co -sleeping and she's thrashing around, but then goes back to sleep instantly when put back in the cot.
Dr Fallon (53:08)
Hmm I would say probably not because night terrors tend to happen before midnight and night terror you'll be able to identify it because they will be you know screaming cry really upset maybe even sitting up but completely unresponsive to anything you say or anything you do.
Touching them and talking to them often makes the night terror worse and makes it last for longer So some elements of what Sam describes sort of sounds like it could be a night terror But they really happen at the start of the night in the deep stages of sleep usually sort of 10 11 p .m. Is peak time for night terrors Interesting that she thrashes around and falls back asleep instantly when put in her cot So I'd be tempted just to keep her in the cot and do all of your support and comfort that you're going to give her in the cot
pick a song bell approach that you're going to use to just apply really, really consistently. Yeah, so hopefully that helps. you think it is night terrors definitely cool her down. Often they're just getting a little bit too hot and that can be one of the triggers. Anything you'd add to that Laura?
Dr Laura (54:15)
Hmm.
No, I don't think so. think that's, you've answered that really well. I think that that's enough information for Sam. Let us know how you get on. And yeah, if those wakes are more around 10 o 'clock that you were talking about where they're, you think maybe it's a night terror, then yeah, just be thinking about when that, thinking about keeping her safe to ensure that she's not
Dr Fallon (54:22)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (54:47)
hurting herself on anything. She's in a cot so it's unlikely. Sometimes when there's toddlers who are jumping out of their bed, they can in a night terror actually get up out of their bed and you want to make sure that they're not going to injure themselves on anything. But otherwise I would just be sitting beside her cot waiting for it to pass and once she's gone back to sleep, then just touching the like the back of her neck to see if she's hot.
Dr Fallon (54:58)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (55:14)
And then thinking if she is thinking about reducing the layers that she has on her. And that may well be an approach that stops those from happening as frequently.
Dr Fallon (55:27)
Maybe we could do an episode on nightmares, night terrors and fear of the dark for our toddler families or even for the families of babies who want to be very well prepared for the future. We could definitely do a deep dive into that. Well we have covered so much territory in this episode. We've gone here, there, everywhere. I love it and thank you so much to the parents who sent in questions. It's great to be able to get through so many.
Dr Laura (55:31)
Hmm. yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (55:54)
And I love that so many parents have been really putting their questions into really concise questions. That means we can get through more of them. If you write an email to us and it starts with, sorry for the essay, or I know this is a lot of information, it's a good sign that you need a coaching call if you feel like you really need to put that much into an email. So yeah, do try and keep your questions nice and short. And if they're really long ones, you're going to benefit from a coaching call.
So thank you everyone for listening in. Thank you for all the wonderful questions. If you would like to see us for an appointment, we have lots of availability. And if you're a health professional, because I know we have a lot of listeners who are health professionals. If you're seeing families and they're having sleep troubles, we work with families up until their children turn six years of age. So we actually do a lot of work with preschoolers, which we really talk about on the podcast. If you're seeing families who having sleep troubles, please do send them our way because it's very rare that we have this availability.
in the clinic. So do keep that in mind. Alright, thanks everyone. Have a great week and you'll hear from us again next week.
Dr Laura (56:58)
Thanks everyone, bye
