Dr Laura (00:38)
When you say, my partner has a demanding job so I get up to the baby, we hear, I'm unsupported and exhausted. A partnership means both parents look after each other. There is no job more demanding or exhausting than raising a child. Unpaid work is work.
Dr Fallon (00:59)
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things early parenting with a particular focus on sleep and settling in the first few years. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with my co -host, Dr. Laura Conway. Wow, Laura, what you just read out is a post that we actually put on social media a couple of weeks ago now, but it is still firing away. Yeah.
Dr Laura (01:24)
It is, my goodness. It's one of the most liked posts that we've done, isn't it? And we do so many for people who are listening, who run their own businesses. They'll know all about content creation and we're constantly looking to see what information can we put out to parents that's informative, that's sensible, that's evidence -based.
Dr Fallon (01:34)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (01:53)
what's going to be useful and what also is going to help parents to find us. And this was just one of many, many posts that we've done, but it's somehow tapped into the zeitgeist, I think.
Dr Fallon (02:02)
Mmm.
Yeah, I think it's really hit a nerve with so many parents and mostly in a really, really positive way. We've had some really lovely comments. but whenever you talk about equality, there's always a few snakes that kind of weasel their way out and just have to take offense at things. so it was really funny, actually. one bloke got on there and was all,
Dr Laura (02:24)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (02:33)
Women love being at home looking after the baby all day. It's their dream come true. Yeah. And having a lovely day and that's just how it works best. and then of course we had these absolute awesome women jump on who were just put him firmly back in his place. So it was just really, really interesting to watch all of that unfold. And you know, the idea that parents should share the mental load, shouldn't be.
Dr Laura (02:39)
painting their nails all day.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (03:02)
It shouldn't be controversial. It, it shouldn't be shocking to anyone. And it shouldn't really be triggering because when you're in a partnership with someone raising a child together, your job is to look after each other as parents. And if one parent is completely and utterly wrecked, just so exhausted, it's the other parent's job to step in and go, Hey, this is not working. Like I need to look after you better. I need to step in and do some more because it's just, it's not working.
Dr Laura (03:03)
No.
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And what our post was getting at is exactly that, that it's not pitting one parent against each other. It's saying, you're a partnership. In the majority of cases, parents have gone into this as a team. Hopefully they've been able to have choices around making the decision to become a parent.
And in this day and age, most families that we're certainly that we're working with in Australia have, they're going with plans of equality and really wanting to do this as a team. And what we're trying to say is kind of remember that, you know, when you obviously none of us can prepare for truly prepare for what it's like to become parents. And it is very easy to slip into.
Dr Fallon (04:18)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (04:29)
typical, you know, those stereotypical relationships and roles. And what we want people to remember is that you went into this as a partnership, as a team, and continue to act as a team and support each other to be the best parents you can be. And if that means that one of you is going out and doing full -time paid work and the other one is
Dr Fallon (04:36)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (04:56)
staying home and doing full -time childcare or reducing their hours and doing some paid work and some unpaid work, then it's a decision that you are making as a couple together to help the household run. And it's a really good idea to support each other in those decisions that you've made together. And that involves
Dr Fallon (05:15)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (05:20)
looking at what the different tasks are that previously might have been invisible or just got done on an ad hoc basis before you had a child, and then making sure that it's not just falling to the default parent to do those things.
Dr Fallon (05:34)
Yes. And it takes work. I think we all go into it expecting that, you know, we'll be equal partners in this whole parenthood thing and it would just happen. It'll just happen. But when you've got a, you know, a baby who's not sleeping well or a baby who's crying a lot and you're recovering from birth and it just, it's such a messy time. And I think we could, you know, if we had a parent counselor in here right now, they would be saying it does take
Dr Laura (05:45)
Mm
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (06:03)
work, you've got to be aware of the dynamic that's there and constantly look at it and reassess it. Yeah, so I think it does take effort. What was really interesting was that with that, that post, there were three comments, I mean, there were lots of comments, but three in particular really jumped out at me because they were all women who were talking about how their partner is a pilot and how it's different for them. And two of the posts were very, very positive. They were
Dr Laura (06:08)
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (06:32)
of the comments were very positive. They were saying, yes, this is great. We want to see more of this. And then saying, my partner is a pilot though. So we have to be really careful with that balance because it's a high risk job and he needs to be well rested. And that's great. Cause it sounds like they've got a balance that works for them. So it might be that mum's doing a bit more of the overnight settling, but there's a balance there. There's some sharing of the load and they're happy with how.
Dr Laura (06:46)
Mm
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm
Dr Fallon (07:00)
that balance is, which is, that's perfect. and then there was this one who shared our posts. I can't find it now. I really wish I could find it. Who shared it and was like, this is terrible. You know, this doesn't apply to everyone. My husband's a pilot. So another pilot, I would rather he came home alive, you know, just went, like it obviously really touched a nerve. And I think this parent is
Dr Laura (07:01)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
you
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (07:29)
clearly doing everything overnight to make sure that her husband comes home safe from work. And I can understand that as well. And again, if that works for that family, like what do I care? Like that's a great, fine, it's fine. But.
Dr Laura (07:39)
Yeah, exactly. If that's the decision that they have made to support each other, then that's fine because you're a partnership, you're a team, you support each other and being parents in the best way you can. So we're not coming at anyone.
Dr Fallon (07:44)
Yeah.
Yes, exactly. Yes. All we would be saying is that if that mom at some point starts to feel like I'm so exhausted, I cannot function. I'm a danger to myself. I'm, you know, we get parents in clinic who are so exhausted. I had one the other day who said, I'm worried I'm going to burn the house down because I keep putting food on to cook and I'm so exhausted. forget it's on the stove. And they really, they're coming to us because they're like, I can't keep.
Dr Laura (08:12)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:20)
coping with this level of fatigue, like it's too much. So if that parent, the angry one, gets to a point where they're not coping, it's about being able to say to the husband who's a pilot, we need to try and figure something out because this isn't working. It might be that you get hired help, or it might be that your husband changes his shifts around to give you a break for a while while you're working on sleep or whatever you're doing. But it's so interesting that, yeah, three different families, similar scenario, very different interpretation.
Dr Laura (08:21)
Yeah.
Mm
Mm
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:49)
of that post. And Laura, I think it's worth talking about, you know, the risks around fatigue, because what really interests me is that these parents are very concerned about their partner who's a pilot, obviously being a pilot, very demanding job, exhausting job, and you're responsible for a lot of people's lives. And I'm never ever going to downplay the importance of that job. I've been on flights before where I think, gosh, I hope this pilot's well rested. I totally get it.
Dr Laura (08:50)
Yes.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:18)
But what about the fact that traffic accidents in cars are actually more likely to happen than incidents in planes. They're much more common. And if a parent is driving, they're absolutely exhausted. They've been up, you know, 10 times last night. They're responsible for the most precious person in your whole world. They're driving them around every day in a car.
Dr Laura (09:27)
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (09:44)
I mean, we've got to give that a bit of weight in this equation as well, because you have to take your baby to their checkups at the nurse or the doctor, to parent group, to activities, like all these important things, childcare, visiting family. It's really important to do those things. And there's risk that comes with that. And you do need to be well -rested. Yeah.
Dr Laura (09:46)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, for sure. I have what I think I probably mentioned this in the podcast before. One of my memories of having my second child when he was really tiny was driving to the daycare center to drop off my older daughter and saying to the carer, I don't think I should be driving. my goodness. I was so sleep deprived and I had my
Dr Fallon (10:26)
Yeah.
Dr Laura (10:30)
newest one in his little car capsule and the older one going into her playroom. And I had been up so often overnight. And we were talking earlier, weren't we Fallon, about how there has been a study released this year. We know the researchers involved who have looked at road safety in mothers whose babies have insomnia.
Dr Fallon (10:37)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (10:59)
and looked at how their driving compares to women who either don't have children and also women whose children don't have sleep issues. And it's really interesting to see that there are differences in the driving. And it's mostly related to reaction times. When you're sleep deprived, you don't ever become used to having less sleep.
Dr Fallon (10:59)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (11:28)
You may feel like you're getting used to it, but the studies show that you actually, your reaction times don't actually improve. It's not like over time you get used to only having five broken hours of sleep a night. Yeah. No.
Dr Fallon (11:32)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly. The physiology doesn't lie, you know, when we measure physiologically what's happening. Yeah, it is a great study. If anyone wants to look it up, it's by Kahn It's K -A -H -N. It's called Sleepless on the Road are Mothers of Infants with Insomnia at Risk for Impaired Driving. And it's just been published this month, so August, 2024. And it's, it is really fascinating. So what they say is mothers of infants with insomnia demonstrated greater lane deviation, higher maximum speed and
porous self rated driving behaviors compared to the control group. So it does have an impact. And what really shocked us before we started this podcast, we were having a bit of a look through this paper, their criteria for a baby with insomnia is perfectly accurate and fine. But I think it's really worth sharing with parents how little interruption to your sleep is actually going to impact your ability to drive. So these were, I wrote it down.
Dr Laura (12:36)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (12:39)
mothers of babies who were waking two or more times per night for more than 30 minutes total awake time during the night and taking over 30 minutes to fall asleep at the start of the night. And I mean, every single family we see in clinic would easily meet that criteria. I don't think there'd be a single one that didn't. But we were even saying if we saw that sleep diary, you know, two wakes, less than 30 minutes total awake time overnight.
Dr Laura (12:58)
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Fallon (13:08)
taking 30 minutes to fall asleep would be going, this is pretty good. That'll be really quick, easy fix. You know, it's mostly okay. Thinking about the diaries where there's 14 wakes per night or something. Yeah. Yes.
Dr Laura (13:20)
Yeah, yeah. And up for three hours and taking 40 to 50 minutes to settle at the start of the night, which is not, I mean, of course we do see the extreme cases in the clinic, but a lot of them. yeah, this, should also add that these babies are aged six, between six months and 23 months. So included toddlers as well. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (13:27)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mmm.
Hmm. And it's a minimum criteria too. So there would have been some in this study who were waking more than that. but I think it's powerful just to have a think as a parent, you know, if you are really fatigued every day, like you're going to be a little bit tired sometimes. I'm a bit tired sometimes and I sleep pretty well. but you know, if you're really severely fatigued and you think, my gosh, I'm really worried. I'm going to not be in great shape to drive, do something about it. You know, like
Dr Laura (13:59)
Yeah.
Mm
Dr Fallon (14:11)
Insomnia in childhood is very, treatable. So you can do something about it. It's going to improve your wellbeing, make your nights a whole lot easier. And then if you are in a situation where, you you had every intention of being in an equal partnership and despite your negotiating, you just aren't able to get that for whatever reason, whether your partner's a bit of a pain in the neck.
Or if they've got a very, I don't know, they're a really demanding job and maybe they're not even home a lot of the time. And so you're just having to take on more of the share, no matter what the reasons, if you can bring sleep under control and make sleep as good as it can be, it's going to mean there's less negotiating to do with night wakes if they're only waking once or not at all. mean, it's not even a problem at that point. So, yeah, I just think no matter your situation, work on sleep, make it as good as it can be. Everyone can be well rested.
Dr Laura (14:40)
you
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (15:08)
and you can reduce that risk. Laura, we actually have a chapter in Sombelle don't we? It's the chapter called parenting. So for members, go in there and read the lesson, specifically the lesson called sharing the mental load. There's an activity in there and we thought we'll talk about it in this podcast so that everybody can benefit from it. But this is where we often suggest to parents actually make a bit of a date night of this activity, even though you might be staying home because you've got a baby.
Dr Laura (15:10)
Yeah, definitely.
Mm
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (15:36)
Hopefully you'll sleep in the next room. Make it fun. Like get a bottle of wine if that's your thing or make up a nice platter and sit down together for a really good chat. What we suggest is drawing up a list of absolutely everything that needs to get done each day or each week. And we mean everything. Like this list is going to be really long. You might, you know, if you're the kind of person who loves an Excel spreadsheet, you're just going to love this task.
Dr Laura (15:39)
you
Mm
And you can also get lists, you can download download lists from the internet. If you were to Google mental load lists, or the motherhood load or parenting load, you can get some really good lists that are very comprehensive, because it includes all the aspects of the running the household, from the groceries to the laundry to maintenance.
Dr Fallon (16:04)
Yes!
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (16:29)
to feeding, sleeping, all of those things. So it can be a good way of kickstarting the conversation is to have a list where you can then add to it if there's extra things that happen in your household that aren't standard, if you run a farm or have bakers or whatever it is, you can add extra things. And you can also cross things off that don't apply to you.
Dr Fallon (16:34)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's such a good idea. I think it's, yeah, it reminds me a lot of actually, if you start a new job working for some company, you get a job description and it outlines very clearly what your job is. And the idea is for there not to be any guesswork. It should just be really clearly detailed. And that's sort of what this is like. It's like really establishing who's going to do what so you can have maximum harmony in the household and everyone's needs being met.
Dr Laura (17:10)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:25)
so draw up that list and decide what needs to be done for every task on that list to be complete. And this is so important. I think a really good example is if one parent says, okay, I'm going to do all the washing of the clothes. That's, that's my job. So be clear on what that is, because I think a lot of us parents know that it's a whole lot more than just chucking some stuff in the washing machine and hitting go. It's so much more. It's sorting washing into piles. It's,
Dr Laura (17:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (17:55)
thinking about what the priority things are to wash. Like I on the weekend for me, it's like, if you touch that washing machine, it better be for school uniforms. They have got to get done over the weekend. You know, it's making sure things get hung out or put in the dryer and then folded and put in, put away again. You know, there's no point in just doing the washing and it's wet in the machine, obviously. So to have that task complete, being really clear on
Dr Laura (18:01)
Yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (18:19)
what are the steps that are expected to be done for that to be brought to completion? So that's not half done. And then the other partners are like, okay, I've got to go finish that thing.
Dr Laura (18:26)
Yes. And there's things like, you know, we can add to even that task, just to highlight to our listeners, Fallon, about the idea of needing to manage the whole task. So if your job is to do the washing, your job is also to know whether you've got enough detergent, whether you need new detergent for a different type of fabric that your child, you know, if they have something woolen, for example, or
Dr Fallon (18:38)
Hmm.
Mm.
Dr Laura (18:53)
So have the right detergent, put it on the shopping list if you need to get new detergent. Is the washing machine working? Does it need servicing? Does it need cleaning? Does the tumble dry? Yeah, pegs. the washing machine, does if you have a tumble dryer, does the lint need to be taken out? So it's all of the tasks around it as well that you need to think about.
Dr Fallon (18:58)
Mmm.
Are you low on pegs?
Yes.
Yeah. It's so important. Otherwise that's where the seeds of resentment start. It's when you go, yeah, the washing got put on, but now it's in a big pile on the table and it's been there for five days. Or I've just gone to put on my own washing and there's no powder left for the machine. It's, you know, really trying to think through every component of that task. So that is done completely because otherwise the parent whose task it isn't.
Dr Laura (19:37)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (19:46)
is carrying that load. thinking, well, I have to keep checking in that this is being done because I don't trust that it's going to be completed. And if it's just not working, that it could be about going, well, okay, your job is to put the clothes in the machine and then transfer them to the dryer. And my job is going to be to fold them and put them away. So just being really clear on that. And then you avoid any resentment ever arising. So important. So once you've got your list together, you really thought about what each task entails.
Dr Laura (19:49)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (20:15)
That's when it's time to delegate. And I always say to parents, there's going to be some things that you love doing. Like a lot of husbands really love mowing the grass. That's their thing. They have their AirPods in, they listen to whatever the heck they listen to and they love it. So if they love that, great. They go with it. You might absolutely love dusting. I can't imagine why. don't know. Terrible example. I hate dusting. but if that's something you want to do,
Dr Laura (20:36)
Can't imagine it. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (20:42)
Do it like that's your thing. So pick the tasks that you're actually really happy to do. And then with the, all the horrible crappy tasks that no one wants, you're divvying them up or working out a rotating roster of who's going to do them. And to some parents, especially with those who are new to parenting, you might be thinking, this is crazy. Like, why would I go into this much detail? If you can establish this really equal footing early on.
Dr Laura (20:52)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (21:07)
It is so much easier to hit the ground running with both parents really clear and on board with what they need to do and what their roles are and maintaining conversations around who's coping and who's not. It is so much easier to do that in the first few months, especially when a lot of dads are taking extra time off work at that time as well. Then it is three years, four years, 15 years down the track trying to go, Hey, I'm doing so much more than you and I'm exhausted and I don't like you very much anymore.
Dr Laura (21:30)
Yeah.
If I have to tell you one more time to empty the lint in the tumble dryer, you get these tiny little things which just seem innocuous on day one by 15 years in. There's a rift.
Dr Fallon (21:38)
It's really hard to... Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a rift forming. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, so you're just stopping those rifts from arising. But I think this is the absolute magic of this whole thing is that you are showing your children that you are both valuable, that your time is valuable. You're showing them that you can negotiate and work out fair arrangements. You're setting an example for your children that it's not one
parents role over the other to be the organizer for everything. That's going to flow into how they grow up and interact with the world and what they expect of people of the other gender as well. It's just, yeah, you're setting these beautiful foundations for your family and your children learn a lot from that. So yeah, if you're a Somba member, go check out that lesson, have a work through it. Definitely have a Google for some of those lists. I want to go and do that now. I think, you know, my relationship is reasonably equal, but...
Dr Laura (22:28)
Mm
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (22:48)
Maybe I'll be starting a rift by going and doing the list. But anyway, yeah, I'll let you know how the divorce is going. No, no, no. But it's interesting though, isn't it? Like it's always good to reflect on how things are going in your relationship. And if you can keep the lines of communication open, it's just so good for everyone. Really is.
Dr Laura (22:51)
Can we have an update next week, felon?
Mmm.
Yeah.
Absolutely. And look, I wrote down a few notes beforehand, because I just can't help myself. But before we start recording, a lot of the families who will be listening to this podcast will be new parents and that because it's for babies and toddlers. so the there is a lot of airtime given to the concept of the mental load. I feel like I see it all the time. But that's because I've been a parent for a long time. So it may be that some of our listeners
Dr Fallon (23:17)
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (23:40)
They're just beginning to become aware of this conversation. And when we're thinking about the mental load, we're thinking about the, there's a cognitive labor and emotional labor to running a household and raising children. And when we're thinking about all of the tasks that need to be done, there's steps, there's anticipating a need.
Dr Fallon (23:53)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (24:07)
There's researching how to address a need. There's then planning how to put it into place if you were to make that decision. And then there's the deciding, yep, I'm going to go ahead. And sometimes what happens in the family system is that these earlier stages, the person who's carrying the mental load does all of those quietly, invisibly in their head.
Dr Fallon (24:11)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (24:34)
or sitting on their phone scrolling and looking things up, then they make a decision. And then it's at that point, the decision is made that then there's a discussion with the partner. And so then the partner is like, okay, yep, or might have a different thought. And so this is all the other parent is seeing this final stage, and not realising that there was all this anticipating the research, the planning.
Dr Fallon (24:35)
Hmm.
Yeah, yes.
Hmm
Dr Laura (25:04)
that went into making that decision. And I think we see that a lot in the sleep area. So when a baby or toddler is struggling to sleep well, it's really impacting the family. Then often it's the parent who's carrying the mental load who is anticipating that this isn't gonna resolve on its own and is then doing all the research to look online, join parenting groups,
Dr Fallon (25:28)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (25:33)
for speaking to the nurse, the GP, is this a problem? What can I do about it? Then looking at the raft of sleep consultants and programmes out there and advice, and then trying to choose which is the best evidence -based one, and then makes the decision, okay, this is hopefully, Sombelle is the one to go to. But then that parent needs to convey to the other parent, I think that this is the best one.
Dr Fallon (25:51)
Hehehehe
Mmm.
Dr Laura (26:00)
And then the other parent is already on a back foot because they haven't got haven't gone through all of that work to decide that this is the best way to go. Yeah. And then what can happen is in a sleep deprived state if your other partner says what how do I know that's the right one? The parent who's done all of this hidden work feels attacked, defensive, unsupported.
Dr Fallon (26:06)
Hmm. They haven't even noticed that work happening a lot of the time.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (26:25)
feels like they're having to then relay all of the information to their partner, which is even more work. And it just very quickly falls apart. listen, I just want parents to know that we see you. We see what's going on. We appreciate that it's really tricky time for you. Hopefully by having this podcast, can...
Dr Fallon (26:32)
Mmm. Yeah.
Yeah, we really do.
Dr Laura (26:54)
Send particular episodes to your partner if you are still in the point where you're researching and thinking and you've yet to make your decision. Encourage your partner to be involved in that decision making in those invisible steps before the decision making happens so that you're not then feeling that you're nagging them and needing to convince them about the decision that you've already made.
Dr Fallon (27:10)
Hmm.
I absolutely love that Laura. think that is such important, important advice. It's really, really good. so yeah, hope parents have found that discussion helpful. I really wish that I, I think everyone, you know, at our age and older wishes they had put a little bit of time into thinking about sharing that mental load in the early days. it's, it's more of a thing now than it was when my first born or your first born, you know, 13, 14 years ago, wildly enough.
Dr Laura (27:39)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (27:48)
we weren't thinking about that so much back then. yeah. Well, this week we've got a couple of really great parent questions to go through. I might start by reading out this question from Katie. Katie emailed to say that she loves the podcast and found it took a lot of pressure off when she learned that she doesn't have to follow an age -based schedule.
Dr Laura (27:51)
No, we won't.
Hmm.
Good.
Dr Fallon (28:12)
She's doing the slow fade approach with her little one. So he's introducing new sleep associations during contact naps until she feels ready to start settling her baby in their cot. Katie has noticed that over the past month, her baby's sleep needs have dropped from around 13 and a half hours to 12 and a half hours. His contact naps have become shorter, around 20 to 35 minutes each. He gets around 10 hours of sleep overnight and wakes three or four times at night.
He's very tired at bedtime and falls asleep quickly. Katie wonders if she gives him fewer naps, is he likely to take longer naps? Or is this something she has to teach him how to do?
Dr Laura (28:54)
Yeah, great questions, Katie, and well done for choosing an approach that suits you. And you've chosen the slow fade approach and it sounds like you're probably introducing those additional associations whilst your baby is falling asleep on you. I would be really encouraging you to work on moving on to the next step.
Dr Fallon (29:01)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (29:20)
We generally suggest about a week or so introducing the new associations and then starting to actually put your baby into their cot or bassinet. don't know how old your child is, Katie, but anyway, into their sleep space and then using those associations that you'd introduced during the contact naps with them in their cot.
So then you can really start to support them to be comfortable in their cot, falling asleep in their cot rather than on you. I think it's probably a good idea to move to fewer naps because what may be happening is if your baby is having quite a few contact naps during the day and they're getting shorter, it might be that your baby's kind of recharging just enough to be able to...
get going for another period of time, but because they've only recharged a little bit, then they get tired quite quickly and then need to have another little nap. then, and so it goes on. What I'd be thinking about is looking to see how many are they having at the moment? it again, because I don't know the number, the age of the child, maybe it's four or five. You might be looking to move down to around three or four, if it was five.
Dr Fallon (30:12)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (30:41)
and then be thinking about moving on to those next stages of the cot settling and in time your child might start to be able to knit two sleep cycles together whilst they're in their cot. What else would you add, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (30:58)
Mmm.
Yeah, I think it's, I think a lot of parents get in this situation where, they sort of frightened to move to fewer naps because, know, it just seems a bit overwhelming and scary, you sort of have to move to fewer naps to try to get the longer nap. I mean, there's no guarantee this baby will do longer naps. They could just be a solid cat nap. He's only ever going to cat nap, but, it's worth trying out. There's a few things running through my head. So one is like, you need to.
Dr Laura (31:16)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (31:28)
for the baby to be able to stitch a couple of sleep cycles together, they're going to probably need some ability to be able to fall asleep in their cot. So they wake up, they're not sort of startled like, what am I doing here? They wake up and go, yep, I'm still here, everything's fine. They do that systems check and then they fall back asleep and get that second sleep cycle. So that's one component of it. But yeah, it's also gonna require probably dropping to one fewer nap. So there's a bit more time awake. So there's higher sleep pressure as well.
Dr Laura (31:56)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (31:56)
it can really be hard for parents trying to work out which way to do it. I would say just do it probably all at once, move to three naps and start to you've, you've laid brilliant foundations, Katie, your baby's now used to some patting and humming, I'm assuming, or patting and shushing. So now when you do go to settle them in a cot, they're likely to feel really comforted by that. It's very familiar to them. so it could be a little bit of, yeah, increasing the sleep pressure, stretching them out between naps, plus building in those self settling skills.
Dr Laura (32:06)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (32:24)
One thing to keep in mind is that a tip that can really help initially, especially if they're not quite self -selling yet and they're still needing some hands -on support, is if you know they're going to wake 20, 30 odd minutes into their nap, then be close by. And as soon as you start to think, they're getting to that point where they're going to wake up, resume the patting or the humming or the shushing, whatever it was you did to get them to sleep.
Dr Laura (32:51)
Mm
Dr Fallon (32:53)
start to do that while they're still asleep and keep doing it until you're pretty sure that they've managed to get into that next sleep cycle. So that can be a really cool trick for just getting them to link a couple together. If you're really struggling to get them through the day on fewer naps, it can just help mean that for one of those naps, I would just do it for one of them. You can stitch a couple of cycles together and then they get through the day a bit more easily.
Dr Laura (33:00)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's such a great tip, Fallon. So rather than your baby completely coming awake after just that one sleep cycle, just to see, let's at the very beginning, let's just give them a little bit of help before they come fully awake. So then they're kind of coming up into light sleep and go, there's still the patting happening. And then they'll go into their next sleep cycle.
Dr Fallon (33:26)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (33:48)
then Katie, you'll have at least one long nap under your belt, which is then going to help move on to fewer naps in the day. And then you can keep on progressing with that slow fade approach.
Dr Fallon (33:52)
Mmm.
Yeah, well done, Katie. You're doing such a good job. I love that you've, yeah, you've learned so much from the program and you're really on the right path. So yeah, keep us updated. Well done. Maddie has a similar kind of situation going on actually. but first she started by saying, since starting Sombelle about a month ago, we have noticed a huge improvement when settling our daughter for naps and at bedtime. It's awesome.
Dr Laura (34:10)
Yeah, well done.
Mm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (34:28)
Maddie says she went from screaming and waking after 45 minutes of bedtime whilst being rocked to sleep to settling with just a few pats and falling asleep independently. And Maddie says I cannot thank you enough my bedtime dread has slowly faded away and I feel more confident going into the night knowing I won't be battling for over an hour. I love that that that dread of bedtime it's a horrible feeling hanging over you all day so that's...
Dr Laura (34:56)
It is. Yeah. And it can really ramp up from dinner time onwards. you know, we hear about it a lot from parents that they, it just colors the whole evening. And knowing Maddie that that dread has lifted for you is just really wonderful to hear. So you can be enjoying the end of the day and enjoying bedtime cuddles as well, rather than thinking, never going to be able to put my baby down.
Dr Fallon (34:58)
Brilliant, Maddie.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah. And how proud does it make you feel Laura? Like all those thousands of hours of working on Sombelle, like to hear that, that using the program has changed someone's life like that. my God. I'll never get over it. I'll never, I get this weird shivery thing. I'm like, my gosh, that's amazing. So Maddie also says, I recommended your podcast and program to a bunch of moms at the mother's group. And we've all found it to be a great resource as first time moms. So shout out to Maddie's mother's group. We love you.
Dr Laura (35:33)
Yeah.
No, I won't.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah we do! Well done all of you! Send in questions if you've got extra questions!
Dr Fallon (35:58)
Yes. Yeah. Amazing. That is just so lovely. So thank you, Maddie. That feedback is brilliant. So Maddie has a couple of questions. So she says her child is nearly five months old and is still very much catnapping three to four times a day for about 35 minutes. So yeah, it sounds like one sleep cycle. Maddie says someday she's totally fine with this amount of sleep.
but others she seems quite grumpy and like she needs more. Every now and then she'll do a random longer nap of about 50 minutes to an hour and a half for no apparent reason. Maddie's question is, is there a way I can help her to get at least the lunchtime nap to be a bit longer and help her get through the day without needing that afternoon nap, so that last nap of the day? Do you recommend contact napping after she wakes from the 35 minute cycle?
if she won't resettle in the cot. This is a really good question. And I do get this from parents quite a bit. I would say you've done some really hard work to help her learn how to happily go to sleep in her cot. I wouldn't introduce contact napping to extend the cycle. Look, some, some people would disagree with me and say, no, contact napping is fine every now and then. It depends how hard you had to work to get the independent settling.
Dr Laura (37:20)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (37:22)
happening. That's my feeling. If it was, you know, really hard work and you don't want to have to go back to teaching that again, you might just avoid contact naps. And I would say Laura, I would try that that tip of actually doing a little bit of patting and shushing or something to extend the sleep cycle potentially and then dropping the final one. Is that what you would say?
Dr Laura (37:23)
Mm
Yeah.
Yeah, I would. And Maddie has identified that her daughter wakes after about 35 minutes. So I'd probably be going in about 30 minutes or 32 minutes after she's fallen asleep. So it's after she's fallen asleep rather than from the point she goes into the cot. Because that will be the point that her sleep cycle, she's coming to the end of a sleep cycle. And I'll be doing the patting then. And then just to she'll come up at
Dr Fallon (37:52)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (38:10)
into light sleep at 35 minutes and then so you just need to pat her to get her down into the next sleep cycle. I think that would be a much, much better option than doing a contact nap to extend the nap.
Dr Fallon (38:15)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah. And give it a try because it might not work. It might be that she falls asleep in a cot on her own and then comes up into light sleep and is like, what the heck is mum doing here? Why am I being padded? You know, so it might be that actually she goes, what, you know, why are you here? And that might be stimulating. Could wake her up. Just try it and see if it works for her. and if it doesn't, rather than a contact nap, I would often say to parents, offer a pram nap, you know, get them straight into the pram, get out the door and see if that.
Dr Laura (38:46)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (38:56)
works or you might just do a pram nap for the entire nap if they naturally tend to sleep longer in the pram. We're throwing all the options at you here Maddie, but hopefully there's something there that, that you feel like, you know, would work for you. And sometimes it just comes on a you go, Laura.
Dr Laura (39:02)
Yeah.
Yeah. And Maddie, I was just going to say that Maddie, when you're seeing that she's happy after a short nap, it's no point trying to resettle. So if you've tried this approach of going in and just trying to pat her just before her sleep cycle ends, and like you were just saying, she wakes up to go, what are you doing? And is smiling and happy, and know, kind of grabbing your hand, then get her up. And you don't need to try and
Dr Fallon (39:30)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Laura (39:38)
pat her back to sleep and you don't need to give her a pram nap. But if you've had one of the situations that you've described Maddie where she's waking up grumpy, then of course, that's when you would say, well, okay, well, this approach of trying to help link a sleep cycle by patting her and the cot hasn't worked, but she is still grumpy. So then I'd be saying, yeah, pop her in the pram and see if you can extend it that way. And if she doesn't go to sleep in that time, that's okay. You gave it a go.
Dr Fallon (39:57)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (40:07)
would actually be thinking about given that she's five months old looking at perhaps reducing the number of naps anyway.
Dr Fallon (40:15)
Yeah, I was going to say that just drop a nap and over a few days, her circadian rhythm will probably go, hang on. we're not getting as much day sleep as we used to. And if she needs it, she might start to have that. One of those naps is a little bit longer. Sometimes it just takes dropping the nap to actually get the longer nap happening. the next question, Maddie has is a good one. She says, I've noticed over the last week, we've started to have a few five or 5 30 AM wake ups.
Dr Laura (40:17)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (40:42)
whereas she used to sleep 6 to 6 .30. I've made sure the sleep environment is perfect and has, she's ruled out factors for, that could be impacting her waking. Maddie says her thoughts are to do another sleep diary and get an idea of her sleep needs to see if there's been another shift. And if so, maybe to push bedtime a little bit later to get that longer bit of morning sleep. She wonders if that seems appropriate or do we think that there could be other factors influencing the early wake up that's come out of nowhere?
Dr Laura (41:13)
I could not agree with you more Maddie about the need to do another sleep diary. We know particularly in the first six months sleep changes wildly. There's always a good idea to if things are starting to go a little change a little bit to log the sleep again and just have a look and see how much your baby is getting on average. Those early morning wakes, they can be
Dr Fallon (41:24)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (41:41)
due to hunger or they can be due to environmental reasons like light coming in. don't think depending on where you are in Australia, if you're down where we are, there wouldn't be any light coming in at that hour. But thinking about if there's any neighbors or whatever making noise at that time, if you've moved house, that might be the case. But if you have ruled all of those things out, then it's
Dr Fallon (42:01)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (42:10)
probably more likely there's been a shift in her sleep needs and probably needing a little bit extra time awake before bedtime. And doing that by moving to fewer naps is going to be your best course of action.
Dr Fallon (42:29)
100%. To me it just screams that this baby is just ready to drop that last nap of the day. Chances are, you know, it'd be uncomfortable at first, she might be quite tired, but over the course of a few days without that third nap, or was it a third nap? can't even remember now. Fourth nap, yeah, without the fourth nap she'll start to sleep in again. The circadian rhythm will try and find that sleep somewhere else.
Dr Laura (42:44)
Fourth nap. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (42:54)
Yeah. Awesome. Awesome work, Maddie. Well done. And you're totally on the right track. Always keep that sleep diary. I say that to any, any parent who is having trouble with sleep, just do another diary, have a look at where things are sitting. Sleep needs can just drop and they're supposed to. And sometimes they drop really suddenly and it takes parents by surprise. And once you adapt to that new sleep need, everything gets better again. so definitely keep an eye on that. we have had some really lovely parent feedback that I wanted to,
Dr Laura (43:10)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (43:24)
read out. The first is from Aziza who is a nurse and she said, Hi Dr. Fallon and Dr. Laura, would love to give some heartfelt feedback. I purchased your program soon after arriving home from the hospital as I began my descent into postpartum depression and anxiety. Aziza that's really hard. She says sleep was an overlooked aspect of becoming a new mum that I was not prepared for.
I tried webinars offered by a popular early parenting center, books and a short residential stay at an early parenting center and I didn't get the help that I needed. Your newborn course truly saved my sanity. She says I enjoyed your easy to digest content, the sleep diary and everything in between. I've recommended this to friends, mothers groups and expecting moms I've come to pass. As a nurse myself, the search for clear and concise evidence -based literature
is paramount in caring for our beloved little ones. Thank you sincerely for your research and podcast into sleep for babies and toddlers. My daughter is now seven months settling well and sleeping through. I love that so much.
Dr Laura (44:35)
Yeah, I love it too. Well done Aziza. I'm so pleased that your little one is sleeping well and that you are now well rested. honestly, yeah, it just gives me all the feels when I hear that. Because we are, you know, we noticed that there was this need for sensible evidence based advice out there.
Dr Fallon (44:48)
Yeah
Dr Laura (44:59)
And that's the whole reason why we have put in so many hours and hours and hours of work to create Sombelle. And as listeners will know, we do update it. We go in and edit some sections, add in extra little hints and tips and tricks where we can. And it's so good to know that it's hitting the mark for so many of you.
Dr Fallon (44:59)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Absolutely, and postpartum depression and anxiety is no joke. I speak from personal experience with postnatal depression. It's an absolute killer. It's horrible. And we know that maternal mental health and paternal mental health and baby sleep is really intricately linked. So poor sleep can kick off the depression. The depression can kick off poor sleep in parents. It's a really horrible cycle.
Dr Laura (45:53)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (45:53)
And I'm very passionate about making sure parents get support with sleep in the early days, because we know from the trial, I think, I don't even know if I've talked about this in the podcast, we did a trial of a program called Baby Business. It was designed to help prevent sleep problems and postnatal depression by giving parents information about what to expect with sleep and settling and things to look out for and just general information about what to expect.
And that managed to reduce rates of postnatal depression. And that was in a community sample of parents. saw a lowering of postnatal depression. So when parents say, this information really saved me, I get it. It actually does. It's really that powerful to have good information about sleep can be really protective in those first few months. Aziza, thank you so much for sharing that with us. It is amazing.
Dr Laura (46:30)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (46:48)
Laura, do you want to read out what Olivia sent through?
Dr Laura (46:50)
Yeah, so Olivia is another health professional who sent in some lovely feedback. So Olivia writes, I have a deep appreciation for your expertise and constant reference to the scientific evidence and literature regarding baby sleep. Knowing you hold PhDs in such an important area of child development is so reassuring. I have completed the SOMBEL modules and honestly wish I had found your program sooner, as it has truly given me the confidence and empowerment to make decisions about my baby's sleep needs.
Prior to finding you, I had a consultation with a sleep consultant recommended to me by several friends. They provided an assessment of my daughter's sleep and gave me an aged based sleep schedule, including nap durations, awake windows and total day and night sleep requirements. I appreciate that the support was well intended. However, only now have I realised that they really overestimated my baby's sleep needs, ability to stay awake for longer durations.
and coached me to almost ignore my baby's tired signs, which led to many tears for both myself and my baby. For weeks, I drove myself insane sticking to this schedule, thinking I was getting everything wrong no matter what I tried. The Sommebell Program Annual Podcast has enabled me to relax and understand that my baby's sleep needs are unique, that improvements may take time, and that my baby has lower sleep needs than what was prescribed to me.
Thank you for the amazing work you do and for your very much appreciated advice.
Dr Fallon (48:22)
that's so lovely. Thank you so much, Olivia. Yeah. I love hearing stories like that where parents have just felt really, really lost. but they've found their way through that haze. I absolutely love it. if you're listening in and you're struggling with sleep or settling, or maybe you're struggling with your own mental health because you're so tired, get support, have a chat to your GP, you know, have a chat to a psychologist. If you're really feeling really down and really struggling, there's lots of support.
Dr Laura (48:34)
Yeah.
Mm
Dr Fallon (48:51)
available to you. but just a huge thank you to all of the parents who make what we do just so awesome. All of the Sunbell members. We've had another huge week with so many new members, Laura and I cannot quite believe it. and I'm sure we're to get an influx of many, many questions for the podcast, but I can't wait. I can't wait to hear, you know, what parents need help with and to support them through it. It will be amazing. so just to finish up.
Dr Laura (48:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
You
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (49:21)
Laura, you have just started doing something very, very cool. You're doing your advanced training in treating sleep, identifying and treating sleep difficulties in older kids. So school aged children, primary school age and secondary school aged children right through until they turn 18. So where you kind of have specialty in babies and toddlers. But Laura, you're off getting that advanced training, which is amazing. And it means eventually we will be seeing older children as well.
Dr Laura (49:32)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (49:49)
which I'm just so excited about. That's a whole other story. The reason I'm mentioning this is that as part of your training, Laura, you are going to need to see a child aged between six and 18 years who has sleep problems. If you know someone or if you have your own older children who are having sleep difficulties, you can actually, we've got room for one family to receive free treatment. It'll be towards the end of September and part of Laura's training course.
Dr Laura (49:51)
You
Dr Fallon (50:16)
So yeah, we are looking for one family with a child six to 18 years with sleep difficulties. If you think you've got someone for us, shoot us through an email, sombelle at infant sleep .com .au. Excellent. Good luck with the training, Laura. It sounds so interesting.
Dr Laura (50:32)
I'm really excited. It's, yeah, obviously some of the sleep disorders that we see in younger children are also present in older children, but we know that there are some newer issues that can emerge for older kids. and also the way that we would treat them differ as well. So it's going to be really exciting to do this new study and
Dr Fallon (50:57)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (51:01)
The family that comes on board with me, I see them across a number of weeks. So for older children, we tend to do more follow ups than sometimes we do for little children where the treatment might be relatively quick and straightforward. If we've got a 15 year old, for example, who's up for three hours every night or not going to sleep until two o 'clock in the morning, it tends to be...
quite a few more steps and a little bit more intensive to bring those changes about. So if you would like to work with me, then do get in touch and know that it will be for a few weeks that we work together.
Dr Fallon (51:45)
Gosh, that family is going to be so lucky. We were jokingly saying earlier, well, a family want to wait until the end of September to be able to get this treatment. And I was like, there's so little help out there for school -aged kids. It's either this or they wait until they move out of home. So I reckon waiting like a month is okay. Not to say that there's no help out there, but there are very few people working on sleep disorders in...
Dr Laura (52:02)
Yes!
Dr Fallon (52:10)
school aged children, which is wild because there's still quite prevalent problems in that age group. So yes, don't wait until they move out of home. Come and see Laura. And just before we go, if you would like your little one to feature on our social media channels, we would love that. If you would love to send through a pic of your baby or toddler finally sleeping in their cot or maybe happily playing because they had a great night of rest. We would love to share that with our followers.
Dr Laura (52:15)
Yeah.
Yeah, come and see me.
Dr Fallon (52:38)
We can cover faces and change names. That's no problem at all. And tell us something that you loved about Sombelle so that we can put that with the post as well. We would love to share your successes. And we always need video testimonials, especially from health professionals who we know love our work. If you've got time, just turn your phone camera towards you and just chat for one to two minutes about what you loved about Sombelle. It's a huge help to us. And again, shoot us through an email, Sombelle at infant sleep .com .au with your testimonials.
Thank you so much everybody. We hope you have a fantastic week. We look forward to hearing all the successes in next week's podcast from those who've sent through questions today. So yeah, have a great week and take good care.
Dr Laura (53:20)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
