Dr Fallon (00:38)
We receive many emails from many members and listeners. Most emails are lovely, giving feedback or making suggestions for additional modules or asking questions for us to answer on the podcast. However, every now and then, but very rarely, we receive an email that is sent in the heat of the moment. Of course, we understand that parents who are accessing our services,
are exhausted and may be feeling very vulnerable. But we just want to remind you that we are here to help. Please be kind. Take a breath before emailing us. We're here to help you. Our aim is to provide support in what can be a confusing and emotional time for parents. We created our services and this podcast to provide sensible evidence -based advice amongst the copious amounts of misinformation out there.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast where we talk about all things sleep and settling during those first few chaotic years of parenting. I'm your host, Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm here with my co -host, Dr. Laura Conway. Hey Laura, how are going?
Dr Laura (01:52)
Yeah, I'm good. Thanks Fallon. How are you?
Dr Fallon (01:56)
I'm good. can probably hear the wind absolutely howling outside my office right now. Poor Victorians and Tasmanians are being pummeled at the moment, are we?
Dr Laura (02:05)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we were just having a chat before starting record, weren't we Fallon, where we were just thanking the gods that you have taken down some of those really dangerous trees in your back garden so they're not going to fall on the house because these winds are just so ferocious.
Dr Fallon (02:17)
You
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, it's like we're in a hurricane or something. So hopefully the power stays on. I'm amazed we've gotten this far, be honest. So we'll see how we go. If it suddenly goes quiet, you'll know that one of the trees did come down after all. Yeah. Yeah. That's it.
Dr Laura (02:33)
Yeah.
Let's hope not.
So this weekend, Fallon, we did receive an email that was sent in the heat of the moment from one of our members. And we thought that it would be a really good idea to discuss the contents of that email, because actually the points that are raised in the email just deserve discussion in the podcast.
Dr Fallon (02:52)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (03:15)
We will call the person Penny who sent the email. We won't be reading it out in its entirety because it's actually really, really long, which is often the case when an email is sent in the heat of the moment because, of course, a person wants to describe exactly what's happening. And we're not going to be throwing any shade at Penny because we realize the immense pressure that parents are under when they are trying to change something about how their baby or toddler settles to sleep.
But we think it's important to answer the question that's really at the heart of Penny's email, which is, my baby is not settling to sleep as we expected. Should we persist or should we pull the plug on the new settling approach?
Dr Fallon (03:45)
Hmm.
Yeah. And I think it's a really good question and one that probably many parents have pondered, you know, what is that point at which we just pull the plug on this and do something different? yeah. And look, with anybody who sends in a question, we will often change their name. So we've have just picked the name Penny just to protect, privacy and anyone else who does send in a question, you can always let us know, what you would like your, your old tier, your alternate name to be.
Dr Laura (04:33)
Yeah
Dr Fallon (04:33)
But yeah, let's dive into the question from Penny in a bit more detail. So the gist of the email is that Penny and her partner are feeling really upset that they've had a try at a cot settling approach for one settle and found it much harder than they expected. A bit of the background is that their baby had been waking 10 times a night for the past five weeks, which I think all of our listeners will...
Dr Laura (04:51)
Mm -hmm.
f
Dr Fallon (05:02)
really sympathize with. That's an excruciating amount of nightwakes. And they were having to pick their baby up and resettle him with cuddling or feeding during that time. So it'd be completely exhausting. They joined Sombelle two days ago and had previously done another popular sleep program. They were considering attending sleep school as well.
Dr Laura (05:05)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (05:28)
And they had prior learnings from the other program regarding timing and sleep pressure. And they assumed that that advice was accurate and correct. So it sounds like they dove straight into the Sombelle settling approaches, rather than spending the time and sort of working on the sleep diary and calculating sleep needs and looking at the daily rhythm. They've gone straight into the settling approaches and they chose to use the quick fade approach. So this is a really, really hands on approach where you're giving your baby
Dr Laura (05:33)
Mmm.
Mm
Mm
Dr Fallon (05:57)
constant support, like the support doesn't stop during that time. Laura, tell us a bit more maybe about how they found that approach.
Dr Laura (06:00)
Mmm, yeah.
Yeah, so they describe how they use the approach for just over an hour and they incorporated cuddles as the advisors and doing resets after a certain period of time. But they didn't find that their baby showed any signs of calming down during that time at all. So they then made the decision that they were going to stop the cot settling.
Dr Fallon (06:32)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (06:36)
and they fed their baby to sleep as they normally would. And they are just not sure whether the way that their baby responded is considered to be normal and whether that's what they should expect and what that's what all parents are experiencing who are using these hands -on cot settling approaches.
or whether actually it wasn't a normal response and should they therefore change the way that they settle their baby. So should they persist or pull the plug? And yeah, so what are the things that sprang to mind, Fallon, when you read about the experience that Penny and her partner had with that settling approach?
Dr Fallon (07:12)
Mmm.
Yeah, I think the first thing that sort of set off an alarm bell for me was that they felt that they had the daily rhythm fine and the sleep pressure was fine. So then dove into the, the, the cot settling approach, which makes sense, but if a baby is waking 10 times per night, there's no way that sleep pressure is right. And the daily rhythm is perfectly, you know, correct.
Dr Laura (07:50)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (07:53)
10 times per night, that's a very fragmented nighttime sleep. And I'd almost put money on there being, could be any number of things. It could be that they're allowing more opportunity to sleep than what that baby actually needs. And that could be, you know, the naps are too long or the naps are a bit close to bedtime or bedtime and wake up time are varying a little bit day to day, or there's just too much opportunity to sleep being offered overnight. It can look so many different ways.
Dr Laura (07:53)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm
Mm. Mm.
Dr Fallon (08:23)
but what we know is that if we haven't addressed that sleep pressure problem and we try to settle a baby in a cot, something they're very unfamiliar with, they're going to push back really hard and for a really long time because they've got the energy to push back for a really long time. So that's where I would say working on the timing side of things is probably the kind of missing ingredient in this case.
Dr Laura (08:39)
Yes, yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (08:50)
often working on the timing for a few days makes a really big difference and then when we go to do cot settling it's much much easier because what they describe sounds really really tough and we don't want that.
Dr Laura (08:59)
sounds, no, absolutely not. so they will have, you know, they've had five weeks of relentless night wakings. And with a baby waking up 10 times a night, that is suggesting to me that that baby is not getting any long stretches of sleep overnight. know, potentially they, when we don't know the frequency of the weights, we haven't seen the sleep diary, but you know, at most that baby might be getting a two hour stretch.
Dr Fallon (09:10)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (09:29)
perhaps, but other than that, it might just be hourly or more, you know, and it might be at particular points in the night, the wakes are really, really frequent. And sometimes they might be getting one or two sleep cycles. And when we know that sleep pressure is a bit higher, it's very likely that a baby will actually do a longer stretch of sleep.
Dr Fallon (09:31)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (09:56)
Even if they're still waking a lot overnight because they have really strong sleep associations that are reliant on mum or dad doing something, like in this case, it sounds like that is what the parents have had identified. It's normally the case that when you've worked on the timing first, then your baby will start to have some longer stretches of sleep and then you will still need to work on the changing those associations if you want to. And so it really is saying to me,
hmm, there's probably a little bit more that could be looked at in that daily rhythm. I do really want to reassure this family that they haven't done any harm at all. They were using a really gentle, supportive approach for one hour at the start of a night where they had their hands on their baby the whole time, giving their baby lots of cuddles. And they also did the right thing to stop when they felt overwhelmed.
Dr Fallon (10:33)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Laura (10:55)
So I think that, yeah, I think that it's a, I just want to reassure them that they've done the right thing. They haven't done any harm and to take a pause and say, this isn't working and then go back to settling the way that you previously have done and then just reach out to us is the right thing to have done.
Dr Fallon (11:15)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it speaks to the importance of trying to really work through every aspect of the program, because what we're doing, we know it's completely different to what anybody else is doing. We work on sleep in a really unique way because we're bringing the sleep science component to it. You might have read all sorts of things and think that you know a lot about sleep, but there will still be things that are a bit different that we suggest in our program. So really making sure you're across all of that.
Dr Laura (11:45)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (11:45)
and that you've worked through each component is really the best way to have the easiest time of things. Let's talk a bit about the aims of Sombelle and what we can kind of expect, from Sombelle. I know Laura, you know, when we were developing it, we were really thinking about, the kind of key, the core aim was to be really empowering parents with information so that they've, you know, that because sleep is, it's a bit like a marathon, isn't it? Like, it's not like you just work on it once like sleep.
Dr Laura (11:50)
Mm
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (12:14)
goes up and down all across those first few years. We wanted to give them the skills to be able to kind of adapt with those changes.
Dr Laura (12:15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. And the aim of Sombelle isn't to spoon feed parents about what to do right now. It's about here's the information about what to expect with sleep, how it changes, how the naps change, how daytime sleep changes, how to know if your child is having enough sleep or not.
And here are some skills that you can use if you wanted to work on cot settling or helping your toddler feel safe in their bed, going to sleep independently or how to motivate them to stop getting out of bed overnight. And, you know, a whole range of things across the baby and the toddler programs. And so one of the big things is it's about the education.
Dr Fallon (13:00)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (13:07)
Another aim of Somme Bell was to think about what are the evidence -based ways that you parents can support their baby or toddler to go to sleep independently. And so we looked at providing some really gentle, supportive and reasonable approaches that you can use with your baby or toddler. But just because they're gentle, supportive and reasonable,
Dr Fallon (13:29)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (13:36)
It doesn't mean that implementing them is going to be easy.
Dr Fallon (13:41)
Exactly. I think that's really key. think all the positive feedback we get and overwhelmingly like the feedback has been phenomenal on Zombell. We have put so much hard work into creating the gentlest, most supportive approaches you can use that still result in progress. So
Dr Laura (13:42)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:02)
They are very reasonable approaches and also it's not prescriptive. We're not saying, you joined the program, right? Now you have to do this. Like there's lots of options in there and lots of things to try. But yeah, often the most gradual approaches can be the toughest on parents because it means you were having to, you know, do something consistently, but do it every settle. You know, if you want to make a change, it's best to do it consistently for every settle.
Dr Laura (14:10)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (14:28)
And if you're doing lots of very gradual little changes, it can be really tiring because in some of those approaches, I know parents love them, but they can take two or three weeks and that can be really exhausting. So we do talk about in the program, thinking about what timeframe is likely to be the best fit for you. But I think it's also really important to note that
Dr Laura (14:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (14:53)
If you're feeling really vulnerable, and I know we see it a lot in the clinics, parents will say, like, I'm, I just can't cope with the tiniest little cry. If my baby, even if I'm holding them and they get upset, I'm triggered by it. I get this rush of anxiety and dread and I'm not coping with that. It just might not be the time to make changes. It might be better to, well, for example, you might, you might attend a sleep school. And I know a lot of people hate sleep schools and really don't want to go there.
Dr Laura (15:07)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm
Dr Fallon (15:23)
But there is a place for them. If, you know, they're really good for parents who have, you know, they're really struggling with mental health, they're really not coping either with all these big changes or maybe with their baby's behavior can be very helpful to have someone do the hands -on settling for you. It might be that you're better off coming to the clinic so that we can work one -to -one. And assuming if you're not coping, you've got a psychologist or a counselor, and we definitely recommend that for any parent who's feeling a bit vulnerable.
Dr Laura (15:24)
Yeah.
Mm
Yeah.
Mm
Dr Fallon (15:52)
We really often do work with psychologists and counselors and sort of broader healthcare teams to really share what your goals are, what your progress is and what things you're working on. And that can be a really beautiful thing to have a whole team around you that are kind of on the same page about where you're at and what you're trying to do. Which kind of brings me to the next point I wanted to make, which is with anything early parenting, you you can provide parents with advice on a topic and give them
Dr Laura (15:59)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Dr Fallon (16:21)
lots of really gentle and supportive approaches and you we provide so many different modifications that families can think about to try and make this process of changing sleep as seamless and easy as possible. But at the end of the day it is a sleep program, it's not a counseling program, it's not a parenting program. So you know if you're really struggling it's not necessarily that there's
Dr Laura (16:41)
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (16:52)
you know, something different that could be added to the program. Sometimes it's just that you need that psychological support component. And obviously, I'm not just speaking to Penny here, I'm speaking to all parents. You know, I think so often solving sleep problems does solve a whole bunch of other problems like parent fatigue. And we know from the research, it can help to reduce parental depression. But if we rely entirely on resolving sleep to fix everything, I think
Dr Laura (16:59)
Hmm.
Mm
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (17:19)
it can feel disappointing when it doesn't. There can still be other things to work on as a parent in terms of how you're coping and how you're managing.
Dr Laura (17:28)
Yeah, yeah. I think those are really good points that you've made, Fallon. So if you're feeling really, really vulnerable and you find that you are very, you know, you have a really strong visceral response to your child's crying, we know that changing things about how your baby goes to sleep and toddler goes to sleep.
can, there can be tears involved with that because you're the one making the decision to make the change, not your baby or toddler. And so we cannot, and we will not guarantee that there won't be tears. And if that is something that is going to be very hard for you to manage, and it is for some parents, and that's no shade on those parents, it's just about recognising what you can manage at the moment and what you can't.
Dr Fallon (18:00)
you
Hmm.
Dr Laura (18:23)
And if that is something that is one of your vulnerabilities, then I would suggest seeking extra support for that, be it with a counselor or psychologist, phoning Panda, going to a sleep school, speaking to your maternal and child health nurse, and having then a really reasonable expectation and timeline for when it might be a time that you could work on cot settling.
And if it's not now, maybe it's in a month, maybe it's in two months, maybe it's not gonna be until you've weaned your baby. Let's be realistic about what your goals are and then make a plan to get you to meet that goal.
Dr Fallon (18:51)
Hmm.
Yeah, and I think that speaks really nicely to some of the kind of homework that parents might do before they go to change the settling approach for their baby or for their toddler. I know I've already mentioned it, but definitely working through all of the content. Don't just join and then dive into an approach, like really work through each of the chapters and build out that sleep and settling action plan.
Dr Laura (19:17)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (19:32)
And I think really importantly, work on your new daily rhythm for three or four days. Just work on the timing, build that sleep pressure before you dive into a different settling approach. And I think really importantly is work through the chapter that looks at the physiological factors that can impact sleep. Because if a settle takes a really, really long time, we definitely want to rule out that there isn't a medical factor that is impacting their sleep. That there isn't sort of
Dr Laura (19:39)
Mm
Dr Fallon (20:01)
pain or discomfort and things like that. What else would you suggest there, Laura?
Dr Laura (20:07)
I think knowing that when we're thinking about a daily rhythm, it's more than just a bedtime, for example. It's about having a set wake up time. If you have a set bedtime, but then wake up still is sometimes 6 a sometimes 9 a sometimes 7 a we're not capturing everything that we want to. So it'd be a set wake up time.
Dr Fallon (20:17)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Mm.
Dr Laura (20:34)
a set bedtime, and then the number of naps, the duration of those naps and the spacing of them across the day. So really take a deep dive into those chapters and know that again, it's not going to happen overnight. You're not going to say, well, this is the new daily rhythm and tomorrow it's going to work. It can take about a week for a child's circadian rhythm to adjust to that new rhythm.
And that's why you definitely want to give that a red hot go before you then bring in any changes that you're making to how your baby or toddler goes to bed and how you respond to them when they wake up overnight. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (21:15)
Mm. Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of what to expect, you know, think part of Penny's question is, I think she felt frustrated that there's not more information in Sunbell on exactly what's going to happen when I make these changes. What, you know, what should parents be expecting when they make these changes? You know, we've already talked about how sometimes it just isn't easy. Look, there are a lot of parents who
Dr Laura (21:22)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (21:43)
use the Sombelle approaches and go, wow, that was fantastic. It was so much easier than I thought it would be. I thought it was going to be horrendous. And actually my baby adapted really quickly. So that those are the majority, those families, but there still is a small percentage that even though these approaches are great, we've tested them, they're wonderful. They just aren't a great fit for that particular baby. Which means that we can't really accurately say, well, this is exactly how things are going to play out. But then we were acknowledging that
Dr Laura (22:05)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (22:13)
Of course, it's helpful for parents to understand how some of those different scenarios might play out. So I think let's talk through a little bit more about that. And I think probably the key thing all parents should keep in mind is that if you have settled your baby one particular way for their entire life, they've only ever known being cuddled to sleep maybe.
Dr Laura (22:18)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Mm
Dr Fallon (22:41)
not going to be easy for them to suddenly fall asleep on their back in a cot. Like that is just such a big change. It's unlikely to just, you know, be really super easy and super quick. But I think what's really important is that it shouldn't be when you go to do that first settle in the cot, a red flag is if it is so challenging that you are getting angry or really frustrated with your baby.
Dr Laura (22:48)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (23:11)
that's a red flag and I would stop because that's too hard and when parents are getting angry and frustrated, it can get dangerous. So we definitely don't want that. And it shouldn't be so hard that you are questioning your parenting skills or ability or if you're starting to think, gosh, is my baby actually sick? Is there something more going on? I think it's when you're getting to that point that maybe it's not
Dr Laura (23:12)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (23:39)
worth persisting. Maybe it's not, maybe it is too hard and we need to reconsider the approach.
Dr Laura (23:44)
Mm
Yeah, yeah. And I think that that kind of takes us on to thinking about what factors might be at play in how a baby responds to a new settling approach and how a parent responds to a new settling approach. You were mentioning there, Fallon, that if you have been settling your baby
to sleep or your toddler to sleep in one particular way for a long time. And they have never had experience of going to sleep in any other way. Then, you know, if that has been for eight months, nine months, 16 months, no, two years, then when you change anything, it is going to be so super different for your child that they have every right to react in a surprised
Dr Fallon (24:32)
you
Dr Laura (24:47)
confused, angry, frustrated, quizzical, upset way. Because like I said before, it's you making the decision to change things, not them. They're actually quite happy with going to sleep in that way. And up until this point, when you've decided to change it, you have also been happy to put them to sleep in that way. But
Dr Fallon (24:50)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And they don't have the words to say, what are you doing? This isn't how we do this. What are you, what are you playing at? Mom, what are you playing at? Dad? They just go, right? They cry. Of course. Cause that's, that's their communication.
Dr Laura (25:08)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So how how you have been settling them to sleep and for how long you've been settling them to sleep in that way is going to play into how they respond. Also, the temperament of your your baby or toddler is going to play into how they react.
And you've probably got a really good sense of how your baby or toddler is compared to other babies in your parents group or at daycare. Often in the clinic we hear, my child is so sensitive. I know they're so sensitive or my child is so strong -willed or so stubborn or so determined. So most parents have got a good feel for their child's temperament. And if you do have a...
Dr Fallon (25:59)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (26:06)
more chilled baby, a placid baby, settling is likely to be a bit easier compared to if your baby is really determined and doesn't like anything, doesn't like transitions, doesn't like things changing. They're really determined, then they are more likely to take a longer time to adapt to a new way of being settled to sleep.
Dr Fallon (26:11)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Yes, and they're definitely the babies where we would say do the slow fade approach, which is where you are spending a lot of time before you change how you settle them, you're introducing new sleep associations that can transfer to the cot. And when I read over Penny's email, my first thought was quick fade might not be the right approach. Maybe the slow fade is a much better approach because they can really prepare their baby for that change. I love the slow fade approach because it does.
Dr Laura (26:44)
Mm -mm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (26:57)
allow parents to do some kind of preparatory work before they're putting their baby in the cot. And that can work so well for the ones with a tricky, or not a tricky temperament, that's not fair because it's not that there's anything wrong with it. It's just that some babies just need that little bit more support and coaching as they get used to new things. You know, it's interesting, Penny,
Dr Laura (27:19)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (27:22)
sort of wanted an indication of the timeframe, like how long should a parent persist with one approach? And I think on the surface, it seems like a very, very reasonable question and there should be a really clear answer. But I think it's really hard to give that clear answer. But I think if parents are wanting to know my, and I say this really cautiously, I suppose, because I don't like to get parents' hopes up and I also,
Dr Laura (27:27)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm
Dr Fallon (27:50)
But yeah, I do want parents to have realistic expectations. In general, in the clinic when parents say, look, how long is this going to take? I would say that typically, so obviously wide range of normal here, typically the first settle you try in the cot is gonna take about 45 minutes, sometimes an hour, sometimes a little bit more, but it's pretty uncommon. And then every settle gets much quicker.
Dr Laura (28:12)
Mm
Dr Fallon (28:16)
So this is even when you're giving lots of hands on support, like it might be 45 minutes and then maybe the next time it's 20 minutes, then it might be 10 minutes and then it might be five minutes or less every time. That's the kind of typical trajectory that we see. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong if it takes longer or if it's quicker. It's parents who say, it was 10 minutes the first time and then we were done and it was easy. And then there's others that say, you know, it took an hour and a half or two hours the first time, but we were okay with that.
Dr Laura (28:16)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (28:45)
You know, so some parents will say it was totally fine. Like, I mean, it was hard, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't breaking us and we could see our baby or our toddler was fine. And we gave them lots of cuddles and lots of support and you know, we persisted and it was okay. So there is just such a wide range of normal. that's, we are really cautious about giving parents an indication of exactly how long something might take because we've seen the harm done in other aspects of infant sleep where, where people have said things like,
Dr Laura (28:58)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (29:15)
you know, at this particular age, they should be awake for this amount of time or they should be having all the shoulds can actually really have a negative impact on parents. Cause then they're like, my baby should be doing this. So they should, you know, so it's like, we're trying to avoid that, but still provide, you know, some useful guidance.
Dr Laura (29:21)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I think to add to that, Falon, we could probably talk about, you know, get a bit more into the weeds around what exactly is happening in that first settle, where it can take 45 minutes to an hour, sometimes a bit less, sometimes a bit more. And at what point does a parent go, do you know what?
Dr Fallon (29:50)
Mm.
Dr Laura (30:03)
this isn't right, let's go, let's regroup. And what I would be thinking about is when you are settling your baby and it may be with a hands -on approach or it may be that you're just doing a little bit of timed returns and humming and shushing and then before coming back in with some physical reassurance.
I want you to be looking at how your child is responding in terms of whether they are escalating and staying escalated for the whole time, or whether there are modulations in their protests or cries. And sometimes what we can see is an immediate protest when you're going to pop a baby down into their cot or bassinet before they're fully asleep.
Dr Fallon (30:43)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (31:01)
And it could be on the back of having introduced associations with a really gradual approach like slow fade. And then parents will start to do the physical reassurance in the cot. And the crying may stay escalated for five or 10 minutes, but then it will start to come down. And there will be pauses sometimes in the crying as a baby is like, okay, it's not too bad, but no.
Dr Fallon (31:22)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Laura (31:30)
I don't like it, pick me up. And then they pause again, or they grizzle a little bit, or they just have moments of quiet and looking around or trying to take your finger and play with your finger. And then they cry again. And so there's moments of them settling in that time. And so it's not escalated the entire time.
Dr Fallon (31:36)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yes. And during those times when they are going a little bit quieter, that's where they're looking at a parent and going, well, they seem totally chill about this. And that is so important. Babies look to their parents' behavior to understand whether a situation is safe and okay, or if it's definitely not safe. So if you are sitting there looking terrified and really upset and distraught, they're thinking, hell, this is obviously a terrible thing. I don't want to be here.
Dr Laura (32:19)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (32:23)
But if you're really calm, you're talking to them, you're telling them you love them, you you're just providing lots of calm reassurance, then they're going, this must be fine because look at how relaxed my parents are. So they're taking a cue from parents. And so when you get that modulation in crying, I think that when they are, you know, having the dips where they're calming a little bit, they're kind of thinking about that, like, they seem okay.
I'll try crying again and I'll see what happens. Because they are like little scientists. They're kind of going, what happens when I do this? What happens when mum does that? They're working out the world around.
Dr Laura (32:56)
Yes, yeah, that's right. And so of course, all of our approaches will have the circuit breakers and the resets in there so that you give cuddles and you take breaks. And, you know, with the most gradual approaches, you would, you know, try for maybe half an hour or so and then revert to what you were doing before. And it's all about just giving your baby experience of being in the bassinet. And then for older babies and toddlers, we're more around well, let's
Dr Fallon (32:58)
Mm.
Hmm.
Dr Laura (33:26)
keep going for a bit longer and just be calm and persistent and consistent and showing your baby or toddler that you're okay and they're okay. But if you're really finding that there is no modulation, even when you've done the resets, even when your hands are on them, you're giving them all the cuddles, that there is no change and you are feeling like
Dr Fallon (33:52)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (33:55)
It's too much. Then stop.
Dr Fallon (33:59)
Yeah, you're the parent. You get to be the boss. Like you can, at any point you can say, hmm, this isn't working for me or this isn't working for my baby. no one is pushing you to do anything. So yeah, you, you've absolutely got the control here to say, yeah, I'm not happy with this. This isn't how I want to do this. And that's perfectly fine. In fact, I would say it's really important because you're your baby's advocate. And if you think,
Dr Laura (34:02)
Yeah.
Mm
Mm.
Dr Fallon (34:28)
this isn't working for them, hell yeah, stop. Like stop and do something different. It might be that you need to switch to a different approach or have a breather for a week or, you know, for some babies, they find hands on like constant reassurance, just way too stimulating. And so we need to move to an approach where you sit a little further away. A lot of parents are shocked by that, but sometimes when you sit,
Dr Laura (34:32)
Yep.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (34:52)
a little further away and it's not constant support, they calm down really, really fast. And parents are like, my gosh, I should have gotten out of this space ages ago. And then for others, it's that you need to do more preparation before they get to the cot and actually need a little more from you. So it might just be that you need a different approach. You know, and that's what coaching calls are also there for. If you try something and you go, holy heck, this is just what's going on. I don't like this. I'm now I'm really confused.
Dr Laura (34:57)
Yeah. Yes.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (35:21)
That's what a coaching call is for. We can look at everything together with you and help you through that. you know, we, we're here to give you that evidence -based advice, but you're, you know, you have this, this is all very cliche kind of saying, I think in any kind of area of healthcare or counseling or psychology, and it certainly stands for sleep as well that, you know, I'm the expert in sleep and you're the expert in your baby.
Dr Laura (35:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (35:49)
But it's so true, like it's a partnership. We can give you the evidence to base advice and some really gentle and really supportive approaches. And we think our approach has fit just about any situation. And that's why we include so many modifications that we can really tailor to the individual family. But at end of the day, you know more about your baby than we could ever know about your baby. So don't forget your kind of power as a parent. You understand this child better than we do.
Dr Laura (36:09)
Mm.
Dr Fallon (36:17)
And you have that control to say, well, that's not going to work for us and we're going to try something different. So don't forget that. You should feel really empowered that you're, you're in the driver's seat on this one.
Dr Laura (36:21)
Mm
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah. I just wanted to jump in and say earlier I've spoken about the factors that can influence how your baby or toddler responds to how you change settling them. And I mentioned that I'll talk about some factors that are relevant to the parent that will affect how they respond to a settling approach.
Dr Fallon (36:55)
Hmm.
Dr Laura (36:55)
And I think it's really useful if you are listening to this and thinking, which approach should I choose? Have a think about how you're traveling at the moment. Do you have any mental health challenges at the moment? Do you have anxiety or depression? If so, are you taking any medication or having any support from a psychologist or a counselor?
In some instances, that means that you actually really need to get on top of cot settling quite quickly, so that you can really look after yourself as best you can. And it may be that a quicker approach would suit you better. And then you'd be thinking about what support you have around you. Could your partner take the lead, for example? Is your mom close by? What support have you got around you to help you?
I'd also be thinking about your tolerance to crying. There have been some interesting research studies looking at different parents' tolerance to listening to recordings of crying babies and how quickly they would respond if that was their baby. And we know that people have different levels of tolerance. And that's okay. But if you know that your tolerance is really low,
Dr Fallon (38:16)
Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Laura (38:20)
then you may be better off going with a very gradual approach where there's likely to be less intense and less crying, but it will take you a longer period of time. Whereas if you're just like, well, this is my fourth child, they just have to cry or I've got twins or triplets, they just have to cry because I can't, haven't got enough pairs of hands to deal with them all. It doesn't bother me. I know they're safe. Then you might be able to get, well, there's a whole lot is open to you then, all the approaches.
Dr Fallon (38:38)
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Laura (38:51)
Yeah. And also, think around what your belief system is about parenting and what it means when a toddler or baby is crying. And if you find it very, if when your child cries, you're generally thinking it means that something is wrong, then it's going to be very hard for you to persist with a settling approach.
Dr Fallon (38:57)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (39:21)
where your baby or toddler is crying. And that might mean that actually now is not the right time to change anything, because as we've spoken about before, usually there are some tears when we change how a baby or toddler goes to sleep.
Dr Fallon (39:34)
Yeah. And I think it's really important to remember whether you go really gradual or, you know, it is your fourth kid and you're like, nah, she'll be right. They're fine. You know, and you choose to move at a really fast pace. All the babies are okay. They all turn out fine. doesn't matter which approach you use. they're going to be okay. We know that from the research, it doesn't matter what approach you're using. The babies are fine. Their attachment is fine. Their mental health is fine.
Dr Laura (39:51)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (40:03)
What's really important is that you're using an approach that you feel fine with and that you can manage so that you move through this phase quickly and hopefully and relatively seamlessly. So I think now what we could do is maybe just a quick summary for Penny in terms of next steps for her. And I think to really quickly go through the key points, definitely look at that daily rhythm. Excuse me. Look at that daily rhythm.
Dr Laura (40:07)
Mm
Dr Fallon (40:31)
work out what their unique sleep needs are, have a look at the daily rhythm charts and spend a few days really optimizing night time sleep pressure. Because 10 wake ups per night, yeah, really tells us that sleep pressure is likely a little bit low overnight. Work on that for a few days before you approach cot settling again. If it's not the right time right now, if you're feeling like it's just too difficult, you don't have to do anything right now. You could just work on that daily rhythm.
Dr Laura (40:46)
Mm
Dr Fallon (40:59)
wait until you're feeling really ready to dive into cot settling and that's perfectly valid and fine. Consider that slow fade approach. I really feel like that could be a really good approach for this particular family. Have a close read through those steps and see if you think it's a good fit for you, Penny. Consider a coaching call. Consider support from a psychologist or a parenting coach. And it's fine to consider sleep score too. They're there for a reason. They can be really helpful if you're feeling like you're really, really struggling.
Dr Laura (40:59)
Mm
Yeah.
Mm
Yeah.
Yep.
Dr Fallon (41:30)
So hopefully that helps Penny and thank you so much for sending in your email. We have a couple of other parent questions which I think we'll probably sail through reasonably quickly. The first one is from Sarah. So she emailed to say her four month old is sleeping much better with the help of Sombelle and a coaching call with me. So that's lovely. That's really lovely feedback Sarah. Thank you. Sarah wonders how she can help her little one get used to car trips.
Dr Laura (41:40)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (41:59)
She says, can happily manage trips of about 15 minutes, but we live rurally and I need to be able to drive 30 to 40 minutes with him for things like appointments and eventually daycare, which he will start when he is nine months old. I hear you. It's a 30 minute drive for me to even get to a shop. So it's very relatable for me. I suspect he is getting bored on the drive. He tends to either fall asleep in the car outside of his usual nap time.
Dr Laura (41:59)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm
Dr Fallon (42:27)
Or he gets very upset and distressed often when we're on the highway when it is hard to pull over safely. So neither is ideal. Sarah says I've given him toys in the car and this has helped to extend the time he is happy. Where possible we also have another adult sitting in the back with him which works well as they entertain him. Well I like that Sarah's doing a little bit of problem solving already. That's fantastic. What are some of the things you'd be thinking about Laura?
Dr Laura (42:33)
Hmm.
Mmm.
I would be thinking, let's see, first of all, double checking that your baby's nappy isn't digging into him as he's in the car seat. Sometimes when we do that nappy up, it's fine when they're running around or just sitting on their bottoms at home. And then in this car seat, the position, it can be a little bit tighter.
Dr Fallon (43:06)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr Laura (43:22)
And so I would just double check, particularly like if you're using cloth nappies that they're not too tight. Hmm. Yeah.
Dr Fallon (43:26)
Definitely cloth nappies. Yeah, they can be quite tight. Yeah, it's a good one to check. I think too, just having, you probably already have Sarah, but it never hurts to just do a really thorough check of the seat. Actually take the cover off and really feel around underneath it in case there's anything, it doesn't take much for something to get wedged underneath that cover and it's creating a really uncomfortable lump or a sharp bit. Put some pressure on the seat and actually have a really good feel.
Dr Laura (43:37)
Mm
Mm
Dr Fallon (43:54)
that there's nothing that's poking into him. Sometimes it really is as simple as that and parents kind of go, if only I checked that a month ago. But the one that I really love is to introduce, start to make car time consistently a really positive time. And I know it's hard when you're trying to drive a vehicle, but even just something like putting on music. I'm a massive fan of teeny tiny Stevie's. Go and look them up if you haven't heard of them. Although I think every parent would have.
Dr Laura (44:00)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (44:21)
But they really do write great music for the babies love toddlers love my kids don't even mind it and they're bit older But it's the kind of music that as a parent you sing along to as well And it's just good vibes and that can often be a great distraction for a baby There's also the song by image and heap called the happy song that was written to make babies happy it's absolutely gorgeous and
Dr Laura (44:40)
Yes.
Dr Fallon (44:45)
Sometimes just, yeah, having that music, making it a happy time, making sure he can hear your voice singing, even if you're not a great singer, you know, he will forgive you. He won't mind. He'll be so happy to hear your voice. yeah, that can work really well. and just checking for things like eczema and heat rash. They can sometimes be exacerbated in car rides as well. look, I don't think there is like one trick though, that's going to do it. It sometimes just takes practice. Did you all struggle with this, Laura?
Dr Laura (44:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, one of them did. And I've seen something recently, which made me giggle. You might have seen it as well on Instagram or TikTok, where a parent prints out a photo of their parents and then sellotapes it to the headrest of the back seat so that their child is looking at a picture of mum or dad smiling at them.
Dr Fallon (45:16)
Mmm.
Yes.
Yes!
Dr Laura (45:39)
Look, there's obviously no evidence in that, but I thought it might be worth giving it a go, Sarah. Put a photo of yourself on the headrest and see if your baby likes that. And then we're hearing you singing, my help.
Dr Fallon (45:43)
Yeah
Yeah.
That, yes, that reminds me actually when mine were little, they had this book. It was like one of those big kind of board book things. And it was just full of different baby faces, babies who were laughing and smiling and frowning and giggling. And, and I actually did have that in the car and they loved looking at it. Like obviously a four month old isn't exactly going to be turning pages, but yeah, even just printing off pictures of different babies. So every car ride, there's a few different pictures to look at.
Dr Laura (46:10)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dr Fallon (46:21)
and finding some way to stick them up that's that's safe as well and out of their reach. Anyway, we're we're freestyling here, aren't we? We're just thinking like mums. Yeah, this is just mums trying to think of strategies. good luck, Sarah. Let us know how you go. It can be really, really tough, but generally they get a bit of practice and it gets a little bit easier.
Dr Laura (46:24)
Yeah, yeah, and that's the yeah, that's the thing that we have to. Yeah, we are. We're completely freestyling. There's no evidence here. We're just you can do this yourself, Sarah, just spitballing. Try this. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (46:49)
Yeah, and Tam emailed as well. She's got a couple of questions. Do you want to read out this one?
Dr Laura (46:51)
Mm
Yeah, so Tam said, I've just started a variation of the quick fade approach. She's four days in. She has a four month old whose temperament towards sleep is quite loud and fussy. Tam. gosh. I bet you really sympathize with Penny's email. Yeah. So Tam says, for the last 10 weeks, we could only manage contact naps during the day and then slowly worked on bassinet naps where we placed her down once she was asleep.
Dr Fallon (47:12)
for sure.
Dr Laura (47:23)
So Tam has two questions. She says, whilst there can be periods where she can be in the cot with shushing and patting, she generally gets upset very quickly. We struggle with placing her into the cot for the quick fade approach because she escalates very quickly. Nearer to her getting to sleep, it's often a cycle of us trying to put her down, her getting worked up instantly, where it's to a point where she wouldn't be able to calm down on her own. Us then rocking or holding her to calm her back down.
her almost falling asleep, which can happen quickly. And then us trying to put her down so she's still awake, then her getting worked up instantly again. that sounds like an exhausting cycle. Yeah. Yeah, and does go on to say it feels like a tricky cycle where she's falling asleep exhausted after lots of fussing and crying rather than successfully caught settling.
Dr Fallon (48:04)
horrible cycle. Yeah.
Dr Laura (48:18)
Tam adds that previously we'd been rocking while shushing and patting and using a yoga ball to bounce on. Gosh, yeah. What advice do you have, Fallon?
Dr Fallon (48:27)
Mmm.
Yeah, it's tough. hear you on that cycle. Look, I would say with the quick fade approach, it's, it's important to have some timeframe around what you're doing. So I think we sort of say 10 minutes of padding and shushing and then having a bit of a cuddle. But if your baby's getting really, really escalated and you think actually would be better off going
Dr Laura (48:36)
Mm.
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr Fallon (49:01)
maybe five minutes and then having a break, that's perfectly fine. The one thing I'm cautious of is that very, very quickly, because babies are like these little scientists and they're, making little mental notes on, when I do this, what happens. And I think what can happen in, cases like what Tam describes is they realize if they go to lower me into the cot and I let out the most almighty shriek, they'll pick me back up again. And so
Dr Laura (49:05)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (49:31)
not, not babies are not being manipulative. I think that's a really good point to make sometimes people go, your babies aren't manipulative. Of course they're not. They just trying to figure out how the world works. but what can really quickly happen is yeah, they, they just go, okay, well, if I'll just let out an almighty shriek, I'll get picked up again. And so then they calm down and you go to put them down, they shriek, they get picked up and it goes on and on and on and on. So decide on how long would you be willing to persist with padding and shushing before picking them up and then just stick to it.
Dr Laura (49:35)
Yeah.
No. Yeah.
Hmm.
Dr Fallon (50:00)
And even if they're really, really escalated, just think to yourself, I'm right here with them. They know they're loved. I'm telling them I love them. I've got my hands on them and everything. Emphasis that amount of time. So it sounds like 10 minutes might be too much, but maybe you could manage five minutes. So make it a little bit more based around the clock rather than going when they do this particular crying, I'm going to pick them up because it can just stop them from some sort of thinking, well, I'll just go straight to that cry constantly.
Dr Laura (50:04)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm
Dr Fallon (50:28)
And then you end up in the cycle that you're in Tam where it's just pick up, put down, pick up, put down. And, it's just so, so, so, so, so hard. I hope that makes sense. Even if it was just, you know, three minutes that you can manage, that's fine. Just stick to it really predictably. yeah.
Dr Laura (50:33)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah. So Tam's next question is, so she describes that our baby was previously fed to sleep for all night wakes, which we're now trying to phase out. There has already been an improvement as she currently only wakes to feed twice overnight. And previously she was waking every two hours. So that's well done Tam, that's really good. I'm assuming that
Dr Fallon (51:07)
Mmm, well done.
Dr Laura (51:13)
You've worked on the daily rhythm and that also will have helped reduce the number of wakes overnight. So that's great. So Tam says, during the night feed, sometimes it's hard to avoid feeding her to sleep, as sometimes I think I must be missing her transition from feeding to comfort sucking to sleep. I try to tickle her arm and stroke her cheek and always do a nappy change between boobs for the second feed of the night to keep her awake.
I keep the room darkish, turning on the night light to be a little brighter so I can see her. And we keep the white noise on during the feed. Any suggestions to catch that fine line between feeding to sleep versus full butterweight?
Dr Fallon (51:55)
Mmm fantastic question Tam. I'm so glad you've asked this. think this is a really important point. I wouldn't be worried if she falls asleep feeding. So you don't need to keep her awake during and throughout the whole feed because I think most babies cannot manage to do that. What is important for some families too just to clarify some parents couldn't care less if their babies fall back to sleep and I'm not saying you need to stop doing that if that's your choice.
Dr Laura (52:02)
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (52:22)
But if you are trying to phase out the feeding off to sleep, all you need to do is at the end of that feed when you're sure she's had enough, then do the nappy change. So it rouses her a little bit and you know she's being put down fresh and then put her into the cot awake or at least aware that she's going into the cot. And that means she's not going to spring awake later on in the night kind of freaked out like, where did you go? How did I get in my cot again? So that will make that a whole lot easier. It's so hard to keep them awake during night feeds time. It must've been driving you a bit crazy.
Dr Laura (52:44)
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (52:51)
Don't worry if she nods off, just do that nappy change and then put her down so that she's aware she's going into her cot. And that should do the trick. Tammy's very smart. You're doing a great job. I really love that you're thinking about these things. And I think they are great questions that will really help other families in a similar situation.
Dr Laura (53:00)
Mm.
Yeah, I think so. the only thing I would add is, Tam, in your first question, you indicated that when you're trying to do the settling, you feel that when she gets worked up instantly, that you know she's going to be really hard to calm down on her own.
I reckon that maybe now that she's doing these lovely long stretches of sleep overnight, she's gone from waking two hourly to now just having the two feeds overnight, which is appropriate for her age. You might actually find that she calms down a bit more quickly than she would have done before. And of course, you're not leaving her on her own to calm down when you're patting her in the cot. She might have that immediate...
Dr Fallon (53:46)
Mmm.
Dr Laura (53:53)
as you pop her down in the cot, because she goes, don't want to do this. But actually then as you're patting her off to sleep, she'll go, no, this is actually OK. And she's got that high sleep pressure. So you'll probably find that she responds, starts to respond much more quickly to the cot settling.
Dr Fallon (54:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
It's such a good point Laura and also if she's only waking twice per night there will be multiple times She's actually waking up but putting herself back to sleep without telling you about it She's not making any noise during that time So she probably is self settling with no hands -on support quite a few times overnight and that's where a lot of parents will switch from the quick fade approach to the supported accelerated approach because They know their babies actually do have some self settling skills and that they can manage it
Dr Laura (54:19)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Dr Fallon (54:37)
So yeah, I think that's worth mentioning too. And just, just to really clarify for parents, there is no failing here. If you try and approach and then you think, I'm to try that other one. That's fine. That's just adapting to what your baby needs. And you're responding to what you think, you know, he's going to work best for them. So if you've tried an approach and think, it didn't work or, you know, it's too hard. I want to do something different. that's just good parenting. There's no failing. You should not feel bad about that one dot. Yeah.
Dr Laura (55:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (55:08)
All right, so to wrap up this week, I just want to thank all the families who do send these really lovely emails with wonderful feedback. And, you know, we always are trying to listen to parents and incorporate the suggestions back into the program. So it is the parents who make Sombell so fantastic. And we're really, really grateful for that.
If you're member, don't forget you can reach out to us with any questions you've got. We've had a lot of podcast episodes now and I think we've covered just about every component of sleep in these 65 episodes. But if there's still something you're thinking, I want to know more about this, please tell us because we'd love to do an episode on it. We are working really hard on social media to...
Dr Laura (55:38)
Hehehehe
Dr Fallon (55:50)
produce a lot of content that's really valuable and giving really good clear guidance to parents. So if you're not following us, go and do it. It's infant .sleep .australia. That's our handle. And if you have older children, you can also follow our account that will be for our school aged children's sleep clinic that's opening next year, which we're super excited about. That's childrens .sleep .australia.
Yeah, in February we will be opening another clinic. And if you happen to be a sleep practitioner who tunes into this podcast and you've been specifically trained in school aged children's sleep and you want a job, reach out to us because we will be looking for the absolute best practitioners for our school aged children's sleep clinic. And yeah, we really want to find the best possible people. So let us know if you're one of them would love to have a chat.
Dr Laura (56:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Fallon (56:43)
All right, well that's all from us for another week and we hope everyone has a fantastic week. Stay safe with all these winds if you are in one of the windier parts of Australia. And yeah, we'll catch you next week.
Dr Laura (56:55)
Thanks everyone, bye bye.
